Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2024 May 9

= May 9 =

Random questions
--40bus (talk) 09:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Are there any countries that currntly drive on the left but are proposing to switch to drive on the right?
 * 2) Are there any non-scientific newspapers in the US that use metric units in their articles?
 * 3) How likely is that the US will have metricated at least some measurements by 2044? I hope that the US will eventually have complete metrication.
 * 4) Why the UK and its former colonies did nor metricate as early as e.g. Spain and its colonies?
 * 1. Why would they? 3. The US already uses some metrics. 4. The UK still uses some pre-metrics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:07, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not 'pre-metric', it's Imperial (though, to be fair, post-Empire now). -- Verbarson talkedits 15:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Spain adopted the metric system in 1849, by which time she had lost nearly all her colonies except Cuba and the Philippines. The UK retained a huge empire well into the 20th-century and had no need to conform to anybody else's standards. Times have changed however. Alansplodge (talk) 15:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, metric measurement was invented in France, so traditional British anti-Gallicism provided an additional barrier to its being adopted. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 188.220.175.176 (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have thought that the metric system should have been invented in the UK. Why there was no need to invent that there? Why the French tried to decimalize everything, including time? Why Brits didn't try that? --40bus (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 40bus - this is a country that still provides it's lawmakers with a piece of tape to hang their swords on. Bishops sit in the legislature. Men in funny costimes count the monarch's swans. Tradition trounces logic here every time. Alansplodge (talk) 20:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Speculation: The system of English units, together with the succeeding Imperial units, were legally established by Governments which were still very much working for and with (sometimes) the monarch. There was a natural tendency to conservatism and tradition. We still have a king, so we still hold by those units.
 * The Système international d'unités or SI units were developed at a time when the monarch was overthrown, traditions were cast aside, and all things were (theoretically) being made anew. It was an ideal time to create a rational and integrated system of measurements. It also means that Metric units are, in origin, left-wing (if not Communist) and so are still looked on askance by the USA. -- Verbarson talkedits 20:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * One might have expected the young revolutionary Americans to have felt disdain for the imperial units of the Empire whose chains they had just broken free of and a willingness to embrace the new revolutionary Continental units, but the Quasi-War stifled any possible enthusiasm. In any case, the Treaty of the Metre was concluded on 20 May 1875, signed by, among others, the USA, which ratified it in 1878. The UK followed in 1884. The adoption of the international yard and pound ensures exact interconvertibility of measures of length and mass between imperial units and SI units. --Lambiam 06:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just a reminder that it's confusing and incorrect to refer to United States customary units as "imperial units". In particular the gallon is significantly different; this was an issue for Americans buying gasoline in Canada before Canada started pumping liters.  (My dad, an engineer, used to call US customary units "English units", but never "Imperial".) --Trovatore (talk) 06:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Good point. When I was in grade school, we called it the "English system". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * When the Fench worked on a new, international system of measurements to replace all national and regional systems in use at that time, they invited to UK and USA to join them in the effort. Initially, they indeed cooperated, as the UK and USA also saw the advantages of a common system. Later, they backed out. The French continued their effort, now only together with some smaller nations. They didn't unilaterally impose the metric system on Europe. The Dutch, who had just kicked out their stadtholder (who didn't mind, as he very much preferred playing croquet in the UK over ruling a country), voluntarily adopted the metric system at the same time as the French. Parts of Switserland followed soon. Maybe no coincidence that those were two countries without a monarch. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * claims that the UK ignored invitations to participate. Should that be a bit more nuanced, or did they stop cooperating before anything actually got done?
 * Incidentally, Anglo-French Survey (1784–1790) (the effort to link London and Paris observatories by triangulation and measurement, which preceded metrication) expresses all lengths in feet, to two decimal places (about $1/8$ inch). To my eye the article is rather Anglo-centric; did the French records disappear during the Revolution? and what units did the French use? -- Verbarson talkedits 10:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The Survey was based on an effort cooperative, yet not entirely concomitant. On the French side Gaspard de Prony visited Greenwich and wrote a report and translations for the French Academie des Sciences. The unit then that had been used by French cartographers before the metric system must have been the toise, unfortunately affected by the pressure of gravity on its standard ( see the illustration for Standards units in en:Fathom) so possibly too randomly reformed, around the 1670's already. --Askedonty (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4) Nelson. DuncanHill (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Many of the former British colonies metricated pretty soon after independence. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 1) Hong Kong, although not a country, seems likely to change over to driving on the right at some point, although I expect that the costs and complexity of such a change are just as much of an issue there. Currently, drivers have to switch sides as they cross over to the mainland, although that seems to be achieved very simply. There is talk of this happening in 2047, so maybe not anytime soon. Mikenorton (talk) 15:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)