Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2015 April 20

= April 20 =

Average bloke time-travelling
If someone with just average technical / scientific / handyman skills were transported back in time by say 1000 years, what knowledge would they bring with them that they could make use of (eg most of us couldn't create an engine or gunpowder) that would be extremely helpful to life back then. Assume, in case it makes a difference, they're taken from and to London. --Dweller (talk) 14:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The germ theory of disease transmission would allow them to institute elementary public health measures (if they didn't get burned for witchcraft or heresy). Jc3s5h (talk) 14:16, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The problems faced by such a time traveler tend to be understated in books like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and the protagonists tend to have special knowledge. For example, the protagonist in A Connecticut Yankee is an engineer with knowledge of metallurgy and firearms and even knows the exact time of an eclipse that occurred 14 centuries before his own time.  The protagonist in Lest Darkness Fall is an archaeologist who can speak Latin and is intimately familiar with the Secret History of Procopius, giving him inside knowledge of the emperor's actions.  Most of us would be in a helpless state and would probably starve, having no ability to speak or read the language and no usable skills.  Knowing germ theory and modern principles of hygiene would be useful only if we were given positions of influence to put those principles into effect, which would not likely occur.  The average bloke's skills as a healer would be quite inadequate.  Knowing modern arithmetic would be an impressive skill, but it's hard to see how our time traveler could make good use of it.  John M Baker (talk) 14:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * One of the most important inventions, which effectively ended the Middle Ages in Europe, was of course the printing press. Someone with a basic understanding of the mechanism could, with a little creativity and luck, greatly benefit society and get rich in the process. - Lindert (talk) 14:59, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Even a dullard like me could get some simple movable type working. That's a good one, . --Dweller (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It sounds like it might take years to get working, to me. Assuming you won't have the tools to make metal letters, I expect you'd end up hand carving each letter out of wood.  So, you'd need at least one page's worth.  At 80 characters per line by 60 lines, that's 4800 characters.  You won't know the exact mix needed for each page, so maybe you will need to make 10,000 characters.  If carving each one takes an hour, that would take years in total, especially if you could only do it in your spare time, needing to hold down a full-time job to make a living.  You could hire workers to do it, though, if you had money. StuRat (talk) 14:56, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * One would obviously need some money to get started. You would also need to make use of skills that people at the time had, so recruit a smith to make the molds in order to quickly produce letters. People have been able to mass produce metal coins since ancient times, which requires similar techniques. Alternatively, you could go the Chinese route and make ceramic letters, which don't require advanced metallurgy. These can also be mass produced by slipcasting. - Lindert (talk) 15:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks,, that's helpful. As is the comments about germs. I suppose just the idea of boiling water could probably help people. An impressive response by, but let's overlook language issues as I'm really interested in the technology, rather than practical barriers. --Dweller (talk) 15:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yea, I'd say you would do best to first get a job as a manual laborer for room and board, then learn the language, and then become a healer. As a healer you wouldn't have access to modern meds, X-rays, etc., but could do simple things like sterilizing wounds with alcohol (as high proof liquor as you could find), applying sterilized bandages (boiled wool ?), and avoiding the many crazy practices of the time, like trepanning and bloodletting.  If you could convince people to give you a try as a healer, they would start to notice that your patients did better.  And being a bit odd may actually be a plus in that line of work as they would want to think of your healing abilities as magical powers (but again there's the risk of being accused of witchcraft). StuRat (talk) 15:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Most places in the world would not have been distilling alcohol for drinking 1000 years ago, see Distillation, and probably not in London. But I suppose that teaching distillation techniques might qualify as helpful knowledge :) To get a better feel for what London was like then, see 1000s_in_England and London. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, if you could set up a still that would be great. If you couldn't do that, I wonder if wine or beer would be better for cleaning wounds than boiled water. StuRat (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The urban myth says urine is good for this... if not necessarily good for business. I think my imaginary time traveller would probably go for boiled water, . --Dweller (talk) 17:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * No, beer or wine would not be better than boiled water. Both could lead to yeast infections, and neither has a high enough concentration of ethanol for appreciable antiseptic properties. 202.62.17.107 (talk) 01:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I thought beer and wine were preferred beverages over water, precisely because they were safer. Is this just because they were too stupid to boil the water before drinking it ?  You would have thought somebody would have figured that out quite early on. StuRat (talk) 14:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Beer and wine are both diuretics, so while that is common claim, it makes no sense. Also, if you're not using boiling already to kill wild yeasts in your bottles, it would hardly be safer than drinking water at all. 202.62.16.214 (talk) 02:00, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I think some people here are underestimating ancient medical knowledge. Trepanning was indeed used for head injuries that might cause hematoma, just as it is today.  (Though today, one hopes, they don't drill multiple holes prospecting for the blood pool!)  But I would think that understanding the fuel use of coal would win some brownie points with the local lord, though I'm not sure if it would make you any real money. Wnt (talk) 18:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Anything nontrivial that could be demonstrated would be considered to be the Devil's work, the person would be burned alive at the Stake. The problem was never that developing the technology we have today was extremely hard, it just took us a few centuries while we have been around for 250,000 years. The problem was always that we had fooled ourselves about having a theory that explained everything (i.e. religion). Count Iblis (talk) 19:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * See the long series of books in the 1632 (novel) franchise. A small town from the late 20th century USA is somehow transported to rural Germany in 1632. The "uptimers" include about 3000 people, some of whom knew science, medicine and technology, but most of whom just had modern common knowledge and skills. Some of the "ordinary folk" were quite successful advising major rulers. Some ordinary folk have more valuable common knowledge than one might give them credit, if they remember half of what they were taught in high school. Someone who worked at a gas station, for instance might be able to apprentice with a blacksmith and from that shop would emerge wonders, if the smith were smart enough to exploit modern skills. Someone who remembers some high school chemistry might apprentice with a doctor or alchemist and amazing progress would result. A radio amateur might introduce spark wireless telegraphy. Many would be able to combine lenses, or to show a gem cutter how to grind crystal pebbles into lenses,  to make a telescope or a microscope, and with some chemistry knowledge photography could emerge. A clockmaker might be interested in notions of an escapement mechanism. Some people know about modern sailing ship design, others might be able to explain how fruits and vegetables in the diet of sailors make it possible to travel for months without the crew getting scurvy. Many know how to preserve food by boiling it and sealing it in a crock or jar. A few might know (as I do) how, in  principle, to extract insulin from animal pancreases and treat diabetes, which would be of some interest to any powerful people with family members who had the condition. Many would know algebra tricks which wold challenge the best mathematicians of a bygone age. A little knowledge or air pumps and diving helmets and nonreturn valves or of diving bells would allow the recovery of sunken treasure in ships below free-diving depth. How about military skills? How about knowledge of world geography and where the gold and silver are to be extracted, or the river and mountain systems and good harbors of North America, or more knowledge of Japan and China than most Europeans had? For every situation where someone says "That percussion rifle, hand grenade, or hot air balloon is the devil's work" some general or prince would say, "But it let us win the big battle and gain territory and loot, so screw you." Edison (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Do a google image search for "time travel cheat sheet". And bring your own weapons; obviously safety is not guaranteed. 88.112.50.121 (talk) 22:53, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't count on knowledge of the New World getting you very far... I mean, all you have to do is convince the locals to invent giant seafaring ships that you don't really know how to build, sail past the edge of the world, and then, after allowing a few years for the Indians to die off of smallpox and measles, both of which were unfamiliar to the average European and possibly nearly as deadly to the Europeans, they can use the guns they don't have to... um. Wnt (talk) 23:09, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest that Arabic numerals and confidence with your arithmetic might make you the darling of the moneylenders, but ... apparently 1000 years ago was about 30 years too late (though I don't know about London). A skill with surfing might have some potential to entertain the upper class, but ... I don't really think of that as a London recreation.  I posted a question about the compound bow recently ... but some there gave me reason to doubt if ancient materials could make it work.  Beekeeping with a proper Langstroth hive would be a grand feat at the time, but only if you know how to do it! Wnt (talk) 23:36, 20 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I can program in Java...would that help? 202.62.17.107 (talk) 01:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, is Java the place where you intend to go time-traveling? --65.94.49.82 (talk) 07:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Funny you should ask me that... 202.62.17.14 (talk) 10:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

On consideration, I think your top skill is probably going to be the knowledge of popular music. Many writers are glad to have one hit song in them; you have a thousand. Somehow I have a feeling they'll go for Barry Manilow... and that Christmas carols are what will get you sent to the stake in the end. Wnt (talk) 11:16, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Betting on the odds that William The Conqueror will win the Battle of Hastings, considering his army was undermanned. That would be a good thing to do to earn a bit of cash (which you can then sell when you get back to the present day). Or advising Harold how to keep his army under control. Then you'd come back, and we'd all be speaking a language not influenced so much by French - win-win situation. Except for you, because you wouldn't be able to understand it. Assuming your time traveller is able to use his time machine multiple times, he could just do that again and again and get rich, also by collecting armour and weapons from the dead on the battlefield. Museums would go crazy for that. KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( もしもし！ ) 12:04, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You'd have a hard time convincing the museum they were real, unless they knew you had a time machine. The metal items would lack the proper patina, and the wooden items would fail the radiocarbon dating test. StuRat (talk) 14:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * That's why the proper way to do it is burying the items in the past and digging them up in the present, not bringing them along in the time machine. - Lindert (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You'd need to be careful about where and how you buried them, or they would rot and rust to oblivion in a thousand years. Also, over that long of a period, finding a spot that won't have been excavated might not be easy.  StuRat (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I prefer shorter trips. You bury a gold coin in the ground at 8 a.m., dig it up at 4 p.m.  Now go back to 9 a.m. and bury it in the ground again, beside the one you buried that is; then come back forward to 3 p.m. and dig up the two coins that are in the hole.  Now you take those back to 10 a.m., bury them next to the two that are already in the ground, and come back forward to 2 p.m. and dig up the four coins.  Now at 11 a.m. you have a total of 8 coins to dig up at 1 p.m., and drop back an hour at noon to collect those 8 coins again.  You now have an hour to sell the 16 coins at the CA$H4G0LD place you did this around the corner from, leaving him to puzzle over the paradoxes on his own time. Wnt (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * 1000 years ago is long enough that some simple innovations are still possible. For example, the use of chimneys (and hence proper fireplaces) didn't make it to Europe until the 1100s.  Suggesting that should be pretty easy even if you have no particular experience with masonry or construction.  Similarly, wheelbarrows and the use of sewn buttons for fastening clothes were both invented in the 1200s.  Flush toilets would have been remarkable, but probably require more than a layman's manufacturing skill.  Another class of thing that the average Joe is familiar with will include popular entertainment like chess, dominoes, and playing cards, and most sports, all of which came to Europe less than 1000 years ago.  Other people have mentioned a knowledge of medicine, but knowledge of basic hygiene could also be beneficial.  Though convincing people to bathe more regularly, wash clothes, dispose of waste in a sanitary way, etc. could be hard to accomplish.  Dragons flight (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Bathing regularly and washing clothes more often might not have been wise, then, since the average person lacked the ability to do so inside, with warm water. So, if you need to go down to the river to do those things, you really only want to do so on warm days. StuRat (talk) 20:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * They'll probably start complaining you gave them all asthma, per the hygiene hypothesis. Honestly, in small isolated communities with very few if any new pathogens passing through in a year, I have no idea if all this hygiene stuff actually helps ward off disease. Wnt (talk) 23:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I certainly think that arranging it so they don't poop in their water supply would help. StuRat (talk) 00:15, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Erm, what happened to We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate? Perhaps that should be modified to '''We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate. Unless it's fun, in which case we do. And people having fun is bad, well, at least according to some, and leads to calls for the abolition of the ref desk and such other dramahz...  '''

One big problem would be the languages of 1 000 years ago. In the Michael Crichton novel Timeline a bunch of graduate students are sent back to 1357, but they all can speak the early Middle French of the time. But - spoiler alert, plot hole alert - so can the bad guy who used the time machine to go back and make the past some sort of tourist attraction, who somehow learned the local Medieval French in a few weeks. If I went back 1 000 years ago to England instead of France, I wouldn't have a clue how to read or speak the Early Middle English of that time. I'd have to ask to be teleported a to couple of hundred years later, but could then only read and speak the Middle English of Chaucer's London.

I'm an average bloke. (Sort of.) Average blokes like me like sports. If an average bloke went time-traveling, surely they would be interested in sports. If I could travel back in time, I'd stamp out the origins of Australian and American Football to ensure that the quarter-finals of every football World Cup included such delicious match-ups as USA v Argentina, Australia v Germany, USA v Brazil, France v Australia and so on, with the occasional Australia v USA final. I would also travel back in time to abolish the off-side rule. But I digress...--Shirt58 (talk) 11:25, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * My suggestion of music was motivated by the language barrier - if you can riddle how the buskers of the time got their coins, it might not matter if your language is incomprehensible. Nonetheless, if you know Spanish you have a leg up, because Spanish is somewhat like Latin, and you need merely look for the tallest building to find someone who speaks Latin. Wnt (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)