Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2017 July 22

= July 22 =

Snake behaviour
I live in Hong Kong (regional context if it might be useful) in a village near the countryside. We've seen snakes outdoors before but this time it was different. We live on the first floor of the three-storey high house (G/F→ 1/F →2/F), and one night my mother was using the toilet when she felt something, and inside the toilet bowl was a snake. We immediately phoned police who brought a snake catcher, and they reported that it looked like a venomous one (just according to the shape of its head, species unknown). However, it went down the pipe in such a way that it could not be caught. We immediately boiled bucket loads of water and sent it down the pipe, and we kept pouring in hot water every night.

Two questions. 1) What was it doing in the toilet bowl? Other family members said that they had heard noises at night for more than a week but couldn't see the snake, and the noises were hissing and the toilet lid opening and closing. It is suspected that the snake thought my mother was the lid since it didn't attempt to bite her (it touched her with its back as it was turning upwards like a screw). Given the period of time it was lurking in the toilet, I assume it was laying eggs. Any other reasons? 2) Is it safe to use said toilet? Would the snake have died and its eggs made unviable? The Average Wikipedian (talk) 05:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

P.S. it climbed a whole storey up a vertical iron pipe to get to the toilet bowl, and it had to swim through the septic tank and all that. The Average Wikipedian (talk) 05:22, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Snakes usually don't attempt to bite humans, unless they feel trapped, they would rather make a getaway from the much larger animal. You may have to put metal mesh across any air vent access to the the sewer at the bottom and top. Actual bites are not that common and make the news: https://www.google.com.hk/search?num=100&client=firefox-b&q=snake+in+toilet+bites+woman Snakes can bite guys too: https://www.google.com.hk/search?num=100&client=firefox-b&q=snake+in+toilet+bites+man Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:09, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * But if you sat down on a toilet with a snake in it, would it feel trapped? In any case, I would consider the alternative hypothesis that the snake was living in the bathroom, but only on the last day it blundered into the toilet.  I don't know how hard it is for an unspecified snake to get out of a toilet - I don't know how large it is, for example.  For example, it could have made noises gliding on the toilet that made you think it was inside, or come up from a hole near the toilet where water might have rotted away some of the floor.  Of course, since you saw it go down the pipe and say it was "turning upwards like a screw" before, I don't mean to suggest your hypothesis is wrong either; it's just hard, from this information, to say anything certain.  I don't much trust the media commentary on this either, but BBC goes for your explanation  while Howstuffworks seems more favorable to my idea.  Slate points out that the balance of possibilities depends on how your plumbing is laid out.  Wnt (talk) 10:55, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. Not sure where the air vent accesses are though. There's no way it was living in the bathroom, literally no. There's no way in, not even the exhaust fan because we replaced it with a machine that completely seals it. It must have come up from the pipe. Also as mentioned noises of the toilet bowl cover were heard and it couldn't have made those outside the toilet bowl, which was left covered overnight. So it was probably living in the pipe for a week or even more. Question is what was it doing in there and has it gone away since. The Average Wikipedian (talk) 15:02, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Snakes have to live somewhere. Some snakes make burrows and others doubtless shelter in convenient pre-existing cavities and holes. The snake may well have thought of the man-made pipe (which of course is mostly dry except for the water trap in the U-bend) as a convenient burrow, just as many cliff-dwelling birds treat buildings in cities as if they were natural cliffs. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.80.244 (talk) 16:16, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Snakes will seek shelter to escape heat, cold, or predators. Once in a narrow pipe, a snake can be unable to turn around, so may be forced to swim to the other end, which could be your toilet.  One other possibility, in rural areas, is that the sewage just discharges, untreated, into a river, giving them easy access.  I wouldn't expect that in Hong Kong, though.


 * I'm skeptical that your hot water cure will work. First, it might crack the toilet bowl.  Second, it will rapidly cool to a temperature that won't bother the snake, after just a few feet mixing with the water in the S-bend, etc.  You might try a chemical instead, such as bleach.  That will have more staying power.   But, it could also damage iron pipes.  What are your pipes made of ?  Another possibility is to use capsaicin, in the form of hot chilis, which apparently messes with their infrared sensors (assuming your type of snake has IR receptors):   StuRat (talk) 16:50, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't imagine this will come as any comfort to the OP to point out that fatalities from snake bites in HK are extremely rare and death due to other causes over shadow them. After all, it is he and not me that has this issue. Pouring down boiling water will just give said creatures a hot bath. Poisons may not have much effect either (and anyway, in a little place like HK you will wreak the environment). However, a strong solution of ordinary household caustic soda may make them think twice about visiting your abode again. Also, have all the family become familiar with all  the Venomous Land Snakes in Hong Kong and become aware that the best form of defence is to  stay calm. As far as I know (with my limited knowledge) simply defecating on them will not cause them to become alarmed -but trying to kill them will. It is right to be wary of snakes, because although snakes don't strike without-out provocation, we don't see our own actions from a snakes point of view and thus might naïvely make the snake feel threatened.  So, let the family know, that all they have to do is just step away. For extra reassurance, you  can check this out with the AFCD in the link (above) I have given. Aspro (talk) 17:08, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm imagining inserting a very large, nasty hook into a temporarily live mouse that is at the end of a sturdy fish line, tying off one end and flushing the rest down the toilet... who knew you could find a fishing snaking hole in the bathroom? This could be the beginning of a new sport... ;) Wnt (talk) 20:03, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * It was recommended by the snake catcher (at the time he was trying to draw it out so that it could be caught, but it went the other way i.e. down). We actually let out the cold water in the toilet before we poured the water in the following days, so it wouldn't have cooled down by much. Yes the pipes are made of iron which is why we aren't considering any chemicals that could react with it (definitely not acids). The toilet bowl hasn't cracked so far and it is pretty thick so I hope it will hold up to the hot water. We might try capsaicin, but again we don't know what exact snake it is so it might not work. I imagine however that the sheer volume of hot water should have at least deterred it, right? Sure we're fine without the toilet for a couple of days but we don't want to lose it forever. What do you think it was doing and do you think it has given up? We're perfectly calm and all that, our only concern is when it will be safe to use said toilet. Caustic soda sounds ok because it's alkaline, we might give that a think. We won't provoke the snake in any way (the hot water should cause discomfort but it's not like it can fight back, hopefully) and we're just leaving that toilet alone. Again, all we want is to have a safe toilet again :).  Sounds good, but snakes don't chew so it will just kill itself, I guess? The Average Wikipedian (talk) 03:06, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I was thinking that if the snake swallows the mouse, and the hook is in the mouse, then either the snake is on the hook or on the line... searching around I was having unusual difficulty finding fishermen with snakes on the line - Google didn't even report this one but DuckDuckGo did.  I don't know if there are a bunch of censors running around or if it really is uncommon to get a snake on a fish line by accident, but as you see from the one video it definitely can be done - I'm not sure there though if the hook is in the fish or in the snake! Wnt (talk) 13:39, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Bleach is also alkaline, but that's no guarantee that it won't corrode iron pipes. Sounds like the capsaicin might be safest.  Cheapest way may be a big bottle of hot sauce, flushing some and leaving some in the toilet bowl.  (Be sure to flush before using, maybe twice, as you don't want to be splashed by that.)  As for the hot water, the iron pipes will also suck the heat right out of that in short order.


 * As for why the snake keeps coming there, is it hot or dry outside ? If so, it may be seeking a cooler, moister environment.  The moister part would be particularly important if it's a water snake.  If it is, and there's a nearby pond that has dried up or been drained, that could cause it to seek water wherever it can find it.  The rice paddy snake is one candidate. StuRat (talk) 15:07, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This is assuming that snakes are sensitive to capsaicin. Birds are not. They don't chew the seeds and destroy them. Rather they spread them via their faeces. Snakes don't even eat chillies so probably capsicums haven’t evolved to be also a reptile  irritant. Aspro (talk) 21:46, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * As per the link I provided previously, capsaicin messes with their IR sensors. Not all snakes have those, so it may only work on some.  As to whether it irritates the rest, I don't know.  But it's cheap enough to be worth a try. StuRat (talk) 21:52, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This probably is a good time to mention that as per the Wikipedia general disclaimer, the Refdesk doesn't actually give advice, it only tries to provide information about questions. So we should not be telling you it is a good idea, best, or even OK to do anything in particular.  So if you fill an apartment building's septic system with a mix of various harsh chemicals and capsaicin and suddenly there is an explosion and dozens of people are running out of their bathrooms pants down, covered in feces, with their flaps on fire, Wikipedia isn't going to pay for that.  Please exercise your own judgment... Wnt (talk) 15:30, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Somebody just has to write a screenplay with that scene included. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.9.11.138 (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Kraft Dinner + multivitamins = nutrition?
How long, and how well, can a person theoretically live on Kraft Dinner plus a daily multivitamin (as would have been my diet of choice when I was small, and pretty cheap too)? Neon Merlin  09:08, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * You will probably die from dehydration, the tablet may help avoid scurvy, but that takes weeks to develop. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, so how about KD, vitamins and milk? (I wouldn't drink much water when I was a kid, and in retrospect that may be why I couldn't pronounce K's properly. I had a speech pathologist give up on me after about a year. But insofar as I was hydrated, it was mostly by milk.) Neon  Merlin  09:51, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Adding milk will be a great help, as it provides many nutrients that are iffy from a pill. The main thing that seems to be missing from all 3 is fiber.  Here's the nutrition info on Kraft Mac & Cheese: .  So, a lack of fiber may cause eventual digestive system problems.  As for the other nutrients, the ratios are probably off (too many carbs can cause weight gain), and there may be many unknown nutrients in fruits and veggies you would miss, so adding something like broccoli and tomatoes to the mac and cheese would really help to balance everything out. StuRat (talk) 17:15, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Chronic dehydration and pronunciation of K's
How well can a childhood speech impediment, where the K sound and G as in "good" are replaced by something described as "coughing", be explained by chronic dehydration? Neon Merlin  10:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * See Speech disorder and Speech sound disorders. In most cases their cause is unknown. Some known causes of speech impediments are "hearing loss, neurological disorders, brain injury, intellectual disability, drug abuse, physical impairments such as cleft lip and palate, and vocal abuse or misuse." Blooteuth (talk) 12:36, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

"Ross 128" signal
The signal that seemed to be coming from Ross 128 now seems most likely to have come from a geostationary satellite. Don't they have the orbital parameters for these things so they could quickly check to see if a satellite is a likely explanation for such a signal? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 23:36, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Sure, all the satellite locations are being tracked, along with lots of floating junk. But I suspect it was some type of reflection of the signal, so not coming straight from the satellite.  Thus it couldn't be easily matched to a particular location. StuRat (talk) 00:42, 23 July 2017 (UTC)


 * To directly answer Bubba73's question, "Don't they have the orbital parameters for these things so they could quickly check...?" Well, yes, there are databases, but unless you define "quickly," ... I mean, they did check for satellites and found several plausible candidate interferers, and that search only took a few weeks.  That was pretty quick.
 * Here is a broad overview of the science behind the Breakthrough Listen program.
 * To put it bluntly, it is not easy to compute whether any interference source might interfere with any specific instrument observation. Certain types of interference can be removed automatically, but even with the state of the art in hardware and software, a research scientist still must follow up manually to study the really interesting signals.
 * There exist thousands of databases, with thousands of different types of information - not only satellites and their orbits - but keep your mind open about all the other reasons why a very sensitive receiver might register a blip. A lightning strike in Indonesia - not to mention the background heat from Big Bang, and every Earthly WiFi router broadcasting cat photographs at 5.4 GHz - radiate more receivable radio signal in the C-band than a celestial source many light-years away.  Whenever the Arecibo antenna, or the Green Bank Telescope - or any other large array involved in the SETI search - receives a signal, the involved scientists have a lot of work to subtract out the unwanted bits.
 * When the search encompasses such a broad range of possibilities, there is no single computer-system that contains every answer, immediately, in a format that is trivially incorporated.
 * Here is a preliminary report from Enriquez et al. on the event. They reference the Two Line Element source database, published by U.S. Strategic Command, available to the public at Space-Track (after a complicated registration process).  That is not the only database of merit - but it's the most important one, because it's the one the researchers are using already.
 * Just to throw out some more examples: if we are concerning ourselves with objects in Earth orbit, I would also look at ORDEM from NASA's Orbital Debris Program Office. I doubt that there's a quick and easy way - today, anyway - to ingest that data into the Breakthrough Listen software; but until somebody does so - and a skilled scientist publishes peer-reviewed work explaining why it matters - we can't rule that stuff out; and we can't rule out any of the thousands of other plausible explanations for a signal.  If we find something that matters, we will apply Occam's razor to rule out every other plausible explanation until the most likely answer is an extraterrestrial source - perhaps even one that indicates the existence of an intelligent civilization.  That hasn't happened yet, and a lot of us think we aren't going to last long enough for it to ever happen.  But, we try anyway.
 * Nimur (talk) 05:03, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that in-depth answer. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:05, 23 July 2017 (UTC)