Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2019 July 17

= July 17 =

Coffee and insomnia
Can drinking coffee cause insomnia? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Our article on insomnia cites this NIH website: "Commonly used substances also can cause insomnia. Examples include caffeine...", which is present in ordinary coffee.
 * Any specific individual may have different experiences, but there we have one reputable source that says it's possible.
 * Nimur (talk) 03:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, coffee contains caffeine, and insomnia is a potential adverse effect of caffeine. Decaffeinated coffee still contains some residual caffeine. (I think this question is acceptable; it's not asking for medical advice.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 03:44, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I mean that's the point, isn't it? Srsly it has a half-life of maybe 6 hours depending, so if you have a cup in the morning it will be mostly out of your system by bedtime, but if you have any in the afternoon it can keep you up at night.  67.164.113.165 (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That could depend on your tolerance level. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The problem is that once caffeine starts to interfere with sleep, you'll tend to drink coffee later in the day as the whole point of drinking coffee was to make you more wakeful. So, what started as coffee on Monday morning at work to deal with social jet lag, can later become coffee at 4 pm to be able to be awake enough to forge ahead with work until 6 pm. The more this affects sleep, the more coffee you'll drink later in the day, because sleepiness will become stronger later in the day if you didn't sleep well. Count Iblis (talk) 15:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's somewhat addicting, or "habit-forming" as the saying goes. I once worked with someone who drank plenty of coffee and for variety they started consuming Jolt Cola. I don't recall observing any impairment later in the day, but that was quite a while ago so I can't say for sure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * And if they then start taking sleeping pills to get to sleep, then more coffee to wake up, then more sleeping pills, etc., it can become dangerous. SinisterLefty (talk) 20:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Once they get fired, they can sleep as much as they want. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Or if they die, then they can sleep all they want. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Andrew J. Wakefield
I have an issue with your article on Andrew J. Wakefield,  my first and main issue is that the article opens up with the statement that he is against vaccinations. I have listened to him speak and read his book, he is only against the MMR vaccination being administered together. Why is there no edit points in this article, I would think if WikiP  was as unbiased as they purport to be,   there would be edit points in this article,  and above and beyond that your staff would research his standings on vaccinations,  and not let them be published if they were in fact contrary to his studies. Autism is beyond a serious problem today and the future looks even dimmer. I nor anyone of my family at present have been afflicted, but that is not to say it will not happen. I commend Andrew Wakefield for his willingness to stand up to the Phamaceutical Companies which I am sure are behind his being blackballed and discredited. Please advise me if I am able to publish this in the article Andrew Wakefield as I see no edit points available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan Baroni (talk • contribs) 11:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello Dan Baroni, unfortunately you can’t edit this article because it is semi protected, instead you can request an edit by clicking on ‘View source’ at the top of the page and then click ‘Submit an edit request’. You might also want to discuss the problem on the talk page of the article where there are specialists on the subject who can talk to you. You can edit the page when you are an autoconfirmed user, but it is best to discuss what you would like to do with others. Please contact me if you have anymore questions on my talk page. Reagrda, Willbb234 (talk) 12:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi . Your memory of what Mr Wakefield has said in talks is not acceptable as a reference in Wikipedia, but his book can be quoted within limits.  Even better, if you can find reports in independent WP:Reliable sources, then these will help when you request material to be added via the talk page.   Dbfirs  12:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Provided you can source your edit, feel free to do them. Be aware, though, that


 * the +20 years old claim of a link between vaccination and autism have been investigated and debunked   etc. (besides the fact that MMR kills, autism doesn't, so even if a vaccine did caused a few autism case -- which, again, is not true -- it would still be worth it).
 * conspiracy theories about [insert favorite big money scapegoat] blackballing and discrediting [insert favorite lunatics] are not welcomed on wikipedia, and spreading those is frowned upon.
 * wikipedia is not, and doesn't claim to actually be, unbiaised. It only tries to. Anyone is welcome to edit, there are no morality check and obviously, biased person can edit (for instance, I find you quite biased, and still invite you to edit so that Wakefield ideas are more accurately described).
 * when topic is hot, you may not be allowed to directly edit, but you can always make your point in the talk page
 * Gem fr (talk) 12:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree, do mind that promotion of fringe views is not appreciated, see WP:LUNATICS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Googling the subject "Andrew J. Wakefield vaccinations", many sources call him an anti-vaxxer, while also pointing out that his bogus study was about the MMR vaccine. It would be incumbent upon the OP to find some valid sources where he supports other vaccines besides the MMR. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:04, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I mean, I maybe see a slight point here. The lede of the article calls him "an anti-vaccine activist", with "anti-vaccine" linked to Vaccine hesitancy. Someone like Wakefield would probably argue they're not "anti-vaccines"; they just challenge the standard vaccine recommendations made by public health bodies. But, in public discourse, "anti-vaccine" has become a metonym for "questions the standard vaccine recommendations", encompassing everyone from the person who thinks all vaccines (and possibly other medical treatments) are a government mind-control plot to the person who thinks current standard vaccine schedules recommend too many vaccines at the same time or possibly too early. Wikipedia can only report what other sources say, and if mainstream sources describe him as "an anti-vaccine activist", that's what the article should say. Perhaps there should be a source cited for such a label, since such a label is a bit controversial (as demonstrated here). Personally, I think another issue in the lede is describing him as "a discredited former British doctor". The "discredited" seems to me an unnecessary bit of opprobrium, trying to give the reader the impression right away that he's a Bad Guy. Omit needless words; let the article speak for itself. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 22:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * A guy who forge a false research finding, that led a lot of people to skip MMR vaccination, resulting in fatalities, IS a bad guy; a guy who gets his paper retracted and is banned of practice, IS discredited. Now, I agree that questioning a single vaccine (MMR is his case) and questioning each and every vaccine is not the same thing and should not come under a single antivax umbrella. Even for a bad guy. "an anti-MMR-vaccine activist" would be more accurate. Gem fr (talk) 23:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Nah, he's just plain anti-vax. He definitely beats the MMR drum harder than any other, but he opposes all vaccination, unless he's getting paid for it . Someguy1221 (talk) 01:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. I guess, either the OP was wrong, or he radicalized views since OP checked. Anyway. The cringe is not worth it. Gem fr (talk) 14:13, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
 * if you want to consider the validity of Wakefield's claims of autism being caused by post-birth vaccinations (whether particular ones or generally), you might want to look at this recent report of a scientific study. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 23:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)