Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2019 May 26

= May 26 =

Special ops helicopter
When the MH-53 Pave Low was retired in 2008, which aircraft was its replacement? Is the replacement still in service in the same role, or has it, in turn, been replaced? 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:D572:F62A:ECB8:F316 (talk) 04:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * MH-X Silent Hawk seems to be a replacement -- but specifics are not publicly known. The 'X' designation suggests that it is not widely in service. —2606:A000:1126:28D:D8C8:217E:6F53:9D9 (talk) 07:28, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Looking through the various articles on Wikipedia, the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey and the MH-60M seems the most likely replacements. WegianWarrior (talk) 08:40, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey indicates it replaced MH-53
 * and internet agrees: https://www.military.com/defensetech/2008/10/08/bye-bye-pave-low-hello-osprey
 * Gem fr (talk) 15:05, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Follow-up question: is it possible to fast-rope from an Osprey as it is from a helo? 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:D572:F62A:ECB8:F316 (talk) 00:34, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes from the rear ramp as our article indicates. Here is a link to an image: . Rmhermen (talk) 02:48, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That's just what I wanted to hear! 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:D572:F62A:ECB8:F316 (talk) 03:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


 * It's worth asking - what is a "special" operation?
 * My local air guard wing - the 129th Rescue Wing - uses the combination HC-130J and HH-60G for low-level insertion and rescue, including long-range search and rescue. The active duty Coast Guard Air Station San Francisco, up the road, uses the distinctive MH-65D Dolphin in bright orange, and every once in a while I see a Black Hawk in Coast Guard livery.  Air Station Sacramento has some very unique C-27 aircraft, in various paint schemes, which are used for coastal search and rescue and other operations.
 * At the Salinas Air Show, we saw some special Navy Sea Hawks out of North Island, San Diego equipped with buoys used for antisubmarine warfare.
 * While flying out over the Olympic Mountains, not far from Joint Base Lewis–McChord, I heard some active duty United States Army training flights in Black Hawks. They were doing some strange things in the lonely darkness.
 * And while I was visiting San Diego on vacation, I saw the regular Marines (almost surely 3MAW) flying a lot of V-22 Osprey aircraft, on training missions.
 * Every one of these represents a unique, hard-working, and highly-specialized group of air crews. And all of this jives with the official Air Force story: MH-53s fly final combat missions (2008), quoting Lt. Col. Gene Becker, "the 20th Expeditionary Special Operations Squadron commander and a MH-53 pilot of 13 years":  "Most of the MH-53 crewmembers will head to AFSOC's new weapons systems like the CV-22 (Osprey), AC-130 (Gunship) ... and (MQ-1) Predators.  Some will head over to Air Combat Command and fly the HH-60G (Pave Hawk), and a few will retire."
 * Now, which among these are "special" operations? Are they only "special" if they're organized under the auspices of the United States Special Operations Command - which is usually a temporary administrative action, anyway?
 * I'd like to think that the various and more irregularly-organized irregulars - the sort who run around and set things on fire without any paperwork or permission or "special" titles - are the really real Special Operations Executive. I would hazard that those special operations don't do search-and-rescue: if an operative is caught or killed... well, let's just say, I would rather be on a regular operation.  If I go down, I want three Black Hawks, a C-130, and the whole civil air patrol looking for me.
 * Nimur (talk) 17:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * For the generally accepted definition, see Special operations. (Note that this includes combat search-and-rescue behind enemy lines, but excludes other kinds of search-and-rescue -- i.e. those missions which are not opposed by the enemy -- and also antisubmarine warfare, which is considered a "regular" (not "special") combat operation.  And yes, for the last part of your question, the definition does include special operations carried out not only by USSOCOM but also by other agencies like the CIA's Special Activities Division and others (such as the Coast Guard's MSRT, the Border Patrol's BORTAC, etc. -- but in the case of the CIA operations, mere mortals can never expect to know about them, except maybe 2-3 generations after the fact!) 2601:646:8A00:A0B3:D572:F62A:ECB8:F316 (talk) 01:46, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Hm... our article circularly defines "special operations" as "operations" that are "special"... I'm not actually sure there is a generally-accepted definition.
 * Seeking out some actual references, I found USSOCOM Core Activities; and here is the Air Force Special Operations Command factsheet, which also lists several of the operational aircraft types.
 * Nimur (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2019 (UTC)