Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2020 May 10

= May 10 =

Patent number for nerf darts
Hi all. I've found draft about foam nerf darts and copied it to my sandbox, now looking for number of the patent that specifies this invention. According to literature it was a patent in 1992 by Lonnie Johnson. In the end I would like to find out when did the company try to clean up their different types of ammunition and what reasons motivated them to keep the nerf darts while phasing out many others. Advice about where to find sources about this would be appreciated, I tried Google Patents but they do not have a matching patent listed. Thank you in advance. --Gryllida (talk) 01:15, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you reviewed his patents (here)? There are many, and a few relate to toy projectiles; a quick scan couldn't discern anything about nerf darts, and no hits for "foam". 107.15.157.44 (talk) 01:42, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * His only patent granted in 1992 was for 'Double tank pinch trigger pump water gun': 107.15.157.44 (talk) 01:58, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * According to this Lonnie Johnson interview, the Hasbro nerf dart gun already existed, and he invented better ones that Hasbro bought the rights to:
 * 107.15.157.44 (talk) 03:20, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * According to the Lonnie Johnson (inventor) article, his patent is number US5553598 A -- However, the above quote suggests that the nerf dart guns that already existed were (presumably) patented previously. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 07:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I think this will be enough for a start, as I expect this patent will mention the other patents which it supersedes. I will get back to you if there will be further questions. Gryllida (talk) 07:51, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Two questions about dietary potassium
Under the shelter-in-place order still in effect where I am (Bay Area of California), we're grocery shopping less frequently and so instead of my usual banana, I'm putting a half to whole orange from the tree in the backyard on my breakfast cereal. I had thought that the banana had more potassium, and that was the original reason for the choice of fruit, but googling it I see several sites claiming dietary authority stating that a medium-sized orange has more potassium than a medium-sized banana, while others say the reverse. Which is correct? Also, why do my multi-vitamins contain so little potassium, only 2% of recommended daily value? I checked the dietary section of the potassium article and found statements there that most people in the US and many in the EU take in too little potassium in their diet, so what is the concern in the formulation of the supplement? Is the thinking that potassium is adequately supplemented from fortified foods, such as the cereal, which I see gives a potassium content of 6% RDA for a standard serving, three times the vitamin tablet? Yngvadottir (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Even standalone potassium supplements tend to have rather little K (I remember one commentator calling them "almost homeopathic" quantities). I suspect (but have no source to show) that the reason is they're worried that someone will gulp a handful of the things, potentially causing hyperkalemia, which can cause lethal changes to heart rhythms.  --Trovatore (talk) 18:17, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Following up on Alansplodge's source below, I find that the actual concern is "small-bowel lesions", which apparently are associated with "enteric-coated potassium chloride". See here.  For this reason, the FDA apparently restricts potassium supplements to 99 mg per pill.
 * I really don't know why you'd want an enteric coating on a potassium supplement. It seems like the FDA may have over-generalized here; it might have been sufficient to require that potassium supplements be designed to dissolve before they get to the intestine.  No one seems to worry about small-bowel lesions from eating an orange or banana.  But of course this is way outside my expertise. --Trovatore (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I only skimmed through the abstract of that source, but our article claims albeit without a source that the problem is concentration related and that it can also cause lesions on the gastric mucosa, also unsourced but a quick search finds e.g. [//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6734038] which discusses lesions on the upper gastrointestinal mucosa and this case study [//link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01070989] so I suspect it's true. A quick search also suggests an orange has about 181mg of potassium per 100g. True this is nearly double the maximum per pill, but 100g is still a very large quantity. I don't know if potassium is concentrated in a certain area if it is, still even if it is I'm quite doubtful the concentration is comparable to a tiny tablet with a high level of potassium especially given also the different way these are consumed. Perhaps a cheweable tablet would help, although chewable doesn't generally mean definitely will be chewed completely, and even then I wonder if you may have to make it fairly large to work. Of course if 99 mg is fine for a small tablet, you may do okay with 200mg with a well decided larger tablet, still it seems complicated so I'm not particularly surprised the FDA may have chosen a "one size fits all" approach.  In any case I'm also doubtful that this is really a complete ban. The nature of the way the FDA and approvals work means I suspect you probably could get one approved, if you prove it's safe. However the cost of such an approval would like dwarf any expected profit.  Nil Einne (talk) 00:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Correct, the issue is that a high local concentration of potassium will kill nearby cells. This can happen from a non-delayed-release tablet or other solid formulation that doesn't dissolve before entering the intestine. There's another problem with multimineral supplements, which is that minerals are bulky; you just can't cram a lot of them into a single tablet and still have it small enough to swallow. So as I understand it, the thing in the U.S. with potassium supplements is a funny intersection of laws and regulations. The FDA is limited in its authority to regulate "supplements" by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. Supplements don't need premarketing approval, unlike medications, and for the FDA to prohibit a specific supplement from being sold, it has to show that it's likely harmful. But the FDA can set general restrictions on a specific ingredient, again, if it's likely harmful, so the FDA just sets a regulation that supplements can contain no more than 99 mg of elemental potassium per serving. By contrast, the FDA has extensive authority over prescription drugs. Prescription potassium supplements, which can contain higher amounts, are regulated like any prescription drug, and there the FDA can set extensive regulations on them, which means solid prescription potassium supplements are formulated as timed-release products that gradually release the potassium, which avoids a high local concentration of it. And like all prescription drugs, each product undergoes testing for safety and effectiveness as part of the approval process. The FDA doesn't have the authority to require any of this for supplements. The Linus Pauling Institute page on potassium discusses some of this. (Some people might know Linus Pauling's history of Vitamin C woo, but the institute bearing his name avoids this and is a good source of information. I believe it's linked to in WP articles.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 00:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * IP editor, I should thank you also for this edit that came in after my thanks to the others below, including for the additional good link. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I can't remember clearly whether the "homeopathic" line was about potassium or lycopene. There was a flurry of popular interest for a while in lycopene's role in protecting the prostate, and supplement companies were putting out "for men" supplements that contained it.  But they'd have like 600 micrograms or something, an entirely trivial amount.  I suppose they just wanted to cash in on the interest while avoiding liability if it turned out to do something bad. --Trovatore (talk) 18:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Hyperkalemia" being a fancy-schmancy word whose roots translate to "too much potassium". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:26, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually it's "too much potassium in the blood" &mdash; you missed the -emia part, which is cognate with the "heme" part of "hemoglobin". --Trovatore (talk) 19:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Appy polly loggies for the anemic translation. :( ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The fancy-schmancy term has the advantage that it will be understood by doctors worldwide. In Germany this condition is called Hyperkaliämie. The term "potassium" is not used there and may well not be understood. --Lambiam 21:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * They probably wouldn't call it "potassium" in the German Wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No, probably not. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * +By way of a reference, I found Potassium - Fact Sheet for Health Professionals from the US Office of Dietary Supplements, which says: "Milk, coffee, tea, other nonalcoholic beverages, and potatoes are the top sources of potassium in the diets of U.S. adults". So put the kettle on! Alansplodge (talk) 21:01, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks, especially to . That source referenced FoodData Central, whose pages on orange and banana give 169mg and 358mg respectively per 100g, which matches the cited page's 422mg for a medium-sized banana. Seeing 496mg earlier in the table for a glass of orange juice makes me suspect that's the source of the statements on some sites that an orange has more potassium than a banana, since I have in the past squeezed several oranges from the tree to make a small glass of juice. And that small-bowel lesions point explains my vitamin tablets. I didn't know I was also getting potassium in coffee (or, until I read it in our article, that I used to be getting it in chocolate, but that's not listed on the NIH page). Yngvadottir (talk) 00:13, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * This is how much I got today. 500 gram broccoli contains 1.5 grams of potassium, 1 kg of potatoes contains 4.2 grams, 400 grams of whole wheat bread contains 1 gram, 200 grams of apples contains 0.2 grams, 200 grams of kiwi contains 0.6 grams, 200 grams of bananas contains 0.7 grams, 200 grams of orange contains 0.36 grams. This is then 8.6 grams in total. So you should just eat lots more vegetables, whole grains and fruits, and you'll automatically get lots more potassium. This then requires you to eat less fat, because fat = empty calories. The problem is ultimately due to the Western-style diet that gives you half of your calories from refined oils and fats that contain zero potassium, and pretty much zero of everything else except fat. Count Iblis (talk) 06:16, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, "whole foods" are the best nutritionally. "Refined" or "white" carbs like white bread are also largely "empty calories" since they're mostly starch; the micronutrients such as potassium are mostly in the bran and germ, which is what gets removed, as is the fiber, which is why you can eat, say, a whole bag of potato chips and not feel full. In fact several of the vitamin deficiencies, like beriberi and pellagra, were first identified in modern nutrition science by looking at the diets of the poor or other people who ate mostly refined carbs, which is what was behind said deficiencies. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 01:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Words and symbols
Side question: Elements whose symbols appear to be unrelated (typically because they come from a different language), such as potassium (K), tin (Sn), lead (Pb) etc, are a triviaphile's delight. Do we have a list of abbreviations etc, not confined to the chemical elements, that are like this? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You mean besides the elements? (Kalium, Stannum, Plumbum, etc.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Natrium, Kalium, Ferrum, Cuprum, Argentum, Stannum, Stibium, Wolfram, Aurum, Hydrargyrum, & Plumbum. Not seeing such a list on WP. -- ToE 22:03, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Nice graphic. -- ToE 22:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See List of chemical elements. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And we also have List of chemical element name etymologies, but I don't see where either separately list those elements whose abbreviations don't match their common English names. -- ToE 22:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You have to kind of figure it out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, besides the elements. I'm thinking of pound (lb), penny (d), ounce (oz) etc. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * viz., sc., cf. --Lambiam 15:55, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Such as $, which supposedly comes from "Spanish peso". Or & for and, which is from Latin "et". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a rather large umbrella article called List of symbols. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Musical notation clearly has several such symbols. Cryptic crossword setters love using the word "queen" to refer to the letters "ER". That R ain't English. HiLo48 (talk) 00:48, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think using "ER" to mean Queen Elizabeth II in a cryptic crossword is non-English... how about using it as a highway sign in English-speaking Ontario, Canada? Signs for the Queen Elizabeth Way, a major highway in Ontario, have read "QEW" for many years, but  they originally read ER, with the full name added in tiny letters.  And by the way, the road is named after Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, not Elizabeth II, who was only a princess at the time. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 03:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As noted by HiLo48, Dynamics (music) is noted with f's and p's from the Italian words meaning soft and loud. In stringed instruments, you also get fingering notation that is sometimes written in "pima" format, where the letters come from the finger names in Spanish.  -- Jayron 32 13:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * As I was thinking of a trip there post COVID-19 restrictions, I recalled that the town of Alexandra, Victoria, Australia, is bisected by Ultima Thule Creek. (Latin, I believe.) It's known locally as UT Creek. Google Maps pedantically calls it "U.t.Creek". HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the locals commonly drive there in a Ute? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.24.23 (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * List_of_Latin_abbreviations may have some examples of what you want, although most seem to be read as the Latin word rather than the English translation, except for those where the Latin and English have the same initials (MA: Magister Artium / Master of Arts; RIP: requiescat in pace / rest in peace). Iapetus (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Nobody admits to knowing why p stands for momentum. —Tamfang (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Au contraire, mon vieux, these people allege it's derived from the Latin petere. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:43, 15 May 2020 (UTC)