Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 362

Lab leak theory: journal articles with Roger Frutos as an author
This scholar has published at least two peer-reviewed articles which dismiss the COVID-19 lab leak theory based on statements by Shi Zhengli. To wit: ''. . . . But staff members of the Wuhan Institute of Virology have all been tested negative indicating that no accident occurred there (Cohen, 2020).''

 ''Furthermore, these experiments were conducted on viruses phylogenetically distant from SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 and no gain-of-function experiment was done on either SARS-CoV-2 or RaTG13 (Cohen, 2020). Not only the engineering of SARS-CoV-2 is merely a narrative but technical evidence indicate that no such engineering could generate a pandemic virus. There is today no evidence and no rationale to support this laboratory engineering narrative.''

The Cohen source Frutos is referring to is this one. The Cohen source reports that according to Shi, WIV staff members have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 and were reported negative.(emphasis added). The underlying Q&A on which the Cohen source is based also has the following: Q: Did you do or collaborate on any gain-of-function experiments with coronaviruses that were not published, and, if so what are the details? A [from Shi]: No.

However, per, no Chinese citizen can say anything on this topic without the permission of the Government of China.

Various Frutos papers are cited extensively at COVID-19 lab leak theory and Investigations into the origin of COVID-19. How should we handle the Frutos papers? Adoring nanny (talk) 00:39, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems you're asking about 33744401 which is a multi-author peer-reviewed review article in a good quality journal. Wikipedia's purpose is to reflect the knowledge in such excellent sources, so WP:STICKTOSOURCE and WP:ASSERT its claims unless there is some RS saying that paper is suspect or which names and contradicts it specifically, or there are equivalent strength or better sources claiming other things on its claims. As policy says:
 * It is not our job to undercut high-quality sources on the basis of personal thoughts about the subject matter. Alexbrn (talk) 01:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not our job to undercut high-quality sources on the basis of personal thoughts about the subject matter. Alexbrn (talk) 01:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Though we do not presently have an article on him, Frutos is a notable scientist, as shown by his citation record in Google, and an expert in the general subject field, and has published other articles on the origin of Covid19 and similar viruses. The journal is Infection, Genetics and Evolution, published by a major scientific publisher, and meting the criteria for notability of scientific journals. There is no reason not to use the paper as a reference. To say on WP that the paper made an unjustified statement, we would need another similarly reliable source saying so. The several steps in the analysis above (i.e, F in his paper made use of a  paper by C that reported a statement by S that may possibly not have represented S's true opinion) amounts to Original research.   The paper is open access, so anyone who wishes to make judgements can read it for themselves. That's why we have the policy WP:V.  DGG ( talk ) 02:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll settle for more completely describing F's analysis, without attempting to say whether it is justified or not. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:55, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

ininet.org
Is https://ininet.org/ reliable? Does anyone know how is the content generated, and by whom?

It is used in very few places in wikipedia as far as I can see.

It is the only place though which I can find some details I need for another article. Aoziwe (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Given that it seems to be nothing but a random collection of uploaded documents about who-knows-what, no, it isn't a reliable source for anything. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems on a cursory examination to contain at least some reasonably accurate and neutral information, but nothing appears to be attributed to any original source. Like AndyTheGrump says, it should not be considered reliable or authoritative. A bit like unsourced Wikipedia content, except that they do not even give a hint as to who wrote anything, who takes responsibility for the content, or who owns the site... &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 06:34, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking at the website further, I suspect that at least some of the content is copyright material, copied without attribution from elsewhere. If that is the case, it must not, per policy, be linked at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:00, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all. Aoziwe (talk) 01:11, 27 December 2021 (UTC) No longer watching so ping me if anything further.

AllHipHop's reliability
I'm having a hard time believing that AllHipHop is a reliable source on account of mass-posting authors such as here. I strongly doubt that an article that says something such as "BKS has been able to move so fluently through the industry by maintaining a disciplined mindset when it comes to work ethics" is not some form of PR churnalism. There's plenty of other very suspect looking articles, too—many of which appear to me to be fluff pieces of some sort, but I can't find anything on AllHipHop's website that suggests they accept these.

Since this is a rather heavily used source on Wikipedia, as well as other places, I'm curious if anyone can offer any insight into why these articles are being written in such a clearly promotional manner that reeks of paid-for PR, and if this is truly as reliable a source as its heavy usage might imply. (It's been added over 20,000 times on Wikipedia.) Perryprog (talk) 01:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Although I haven't yet found on the AllHipHop website where they openly solicit paid posts or press release submissions, there is an entire section of "sponsored posts": https://allhiphop.com/sponsored-posts/ so it appears that they do accept some form of consideration for content. —Scottyoak2 (talk) 02:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's rather poor quality. Have there been discussions about it? --Hipal (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * None of substance; see here. Perryprog (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It is listed as a reliable source at WikiProject Albums/Sources, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:25, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The relevant discussion from WikiProject Albums seems very limited. --Hipal (talk) 01:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Vox revisited
I'm concerned that Vox does not clearly distinguish fact from opinion. For example, this recent article opens and closes with an opinionated statement about invasive species from the author's perspective (including the headline), although it presents attributed opinions from others. There are other examples, but I don't have the time to seek them out. The main page of this website also does not segregate op-eds, as other mainstream news sites like The Guardian do. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 16:48, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That is correct. Vox should be treated as analysis or opinion source, which means that generally it should be attributed. It does not even pretend to be news, rather than "explanatory journalism".In your example the author uses first person singular: "I posed this question to ..." The author is not introduced in their profile and does not seem to have any other articles under their belt for Vox.Another random example, from the front page: "I will conclude by reiterating a point I've made several times before; that the most important question in Dobbs is not whether the Court writes the magic words "Roe v. Wade is overruled." Millhiser does not seem to have strong journalistic credentials: before joining Vox, they wrote columns for Thinkprogress. And so on. Politrukki (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My concern is that this is not mentioned in the website's WP:RSP entry. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 06:13, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, this a problem and should be reflected in the RSP entry and color. WP:RSOPINION is toothless if people can just get around it by using outlets like Vox to recycle opinions as fact. Right-wing outlets that mix fact and opinion like this are considered unreliable, as are some left-wing ones, and that should be applied here too. Crossroads -talk- 08:53, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * What specific text in which specific Wikipedia articles is that Vox piece being used as a citation? -- Jayron 32 14:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * While I enjoy reading Vox, it is, by its own admission (see its about us and ethics pages), "explanatory journalism", which I like and value, but I also recognize is something different than straight news journalism. It's opinion/analysis. I'm not sure they do any actual news reporting or even real investigative journalism. I could be wrong about that, I haven't read everything they've published of course. But we shouldn't be citing to Vox analysis for statements in wikivoice. I agree it shouldn't be green at RSP, and the RSN threads linked there are old (2014, 2017, 2020) and/or don't really grapple with general reliability (especially the 2020 one). I don't think those linked RSN threads support a green listing as it stands now, but would support an RfC and would probably !vote to mark it yellow (use with attribution only). Levivich 14:58, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree Vox tends to wear its opinions on its sleeves, but when you distill out the facts, they are still reliable and engage in proper editorial practices. As more and more sources take this type of accountability journalism approach, I think we can't rule out their reliability, just know when the writer is speaking in a subjective voice versus an objective voice (eg per WP:YESPOV). We need editors to be fully aware of how to use such articles, not only from Vox but other sources in the future. --M asem (t) 15:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you think it should be yellow to alert editors to this? I fear if it's green, editors will just adopt it in wikivoice without question, and any editor who questions that will be told it's green at RSP, end of discussion. Levivich 15:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Given that what's happening with Vox is indicative of many other nominally reliable sources, I don't think it should change as the source is still good, but one just has to be more careful of what's included in wikivoice. --M asem (t) 16:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Vox is exceptional in mixing opinion and fact, and does not even purport to do otherwise. Many editors are of the mindset that an opinion in a green-listed source becomes a fact that we can state in wikivoice, and this leads to laundering of POV into fact. I support Levivich's proposal. Crossroads -talk- 20:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Heartily seconded. It's position on https://adfontesmedia.com/ is not impressive, but I actually think it's overly generous. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Masem (and others), not always proper. Vox has edited this 2020 analysis several times. It has issued maybe four editor's notes, but hasn't actually corrected the article, except for some details; a poor journalistic practice that is sadly becoming a norm. The Washington Post reported on this (calls Vox "explanatory news site"). The Vox analysis was cited in this discussion. Has the piece ever been used in mainspace? No idea, but it could have caused a major blunder. Some editors in the discussion argued that Vox is a reliable source specifically because RSP says so.I wish people would stop citing RSP like it's some kind of kind of religious document. I cite Vox sometimes, but rarely for stating some in Wikipedia's voice and never before careful consideration. Mainstream papers like The Washington Post publish pieces that are blogs or news analysis. We consider them less reliable for facts than news articles even though the publisher is the same. Politrukki (talk) 16:19, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unless I am misreading, those updates reflect changes to the scientific consensus that happened after the article was published. Updates and corrections like that are laudable and are signs of a WP:RS, but it's especially absurd to blame them for not being able to see the future. --Aquillion (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Some language was softened, but editors did not do – and have refused to do – major corrections. Barclay asserted as fact something that was not established as fact. Barclay opined that "We'll need to be patient for Chinese investigators to get to the bottom of how the virus made the jump from animals to humans." That's just naïf pandering to China, which contributed to making it more difficult to get to the bottom of finding origins. Politrukki (talk) 11:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:HEADLINE has us well-covered here. Once you're past the headline, I don't see any issue with this one article. "Explanatory journalism" is not a reason to say a source is less reliable. Firefangledfeathers 15:55, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Vox is more of an opinion magazine that also publishes news, rather than a news magazine that also publishes opinions. User:力 (powera, π,  ν ) 17:35, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is an apt description. In full fairness, some well-trusted papers such as the Economist do publish a large number of editorial articles, but in that case the paper’s impartiality and factual accuracy is highly regarded - not to the same wide extent in the case of Vox. thorpewilliam (talk) 12:32, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The headline is just covered by WP:HEADLINES. I don't agree with the argument that Vox largely publishes opinion, and especially with the argument that it leans more towards publishing opinion than most other online news sites today, which is simply wrong. See eg. the discussion of their data-driven explanatory news approach here. Nothing there, in their mission statement or articles indicates that they are primarily about opinion, and they have significant use by others that treats them as factual, nor has anyone actually presented any reason to think that beyond "it just reads to me that way", which isn't grounded in anything and which I certainly disagree with. Having a bias is insufficient to treat a source as opinion (though they are not unusually biased; eg. puts them in the same category as the Washington Post, the New Yorker, NBC News, and so on).  And in the absence of any other real evidence, some of the arguments above, by saying "it reads as opinion to me", are basically saying "I disagree with their analysis and the conclusions they make, therefore it is mere opinion and not staid factual analysis."  That isn't how it works - their articles go through a rigorous fact-checking and editorial process comparable to those at other high-quality news sources, and are therefore appropriate to cite for facts in the article voice. It's also factually incorrect to say that they do not segregate opinion - they have a First Person section for that. In terms of WP:USEBYOTHERS, see .  The New York Times describes Vox as a site known for explanatory journalism and podcasts. The Washington Post describes it as a digital-news site.  I'm not seeing any particularly compelling arguments above to question these usages and assessments. --Aquillion (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you understand that your argument "are basically saying 'I disagree with their analysis and the conclusions they make, therefore it is mere opinion and not staid factual analysis can be turned against you? I.e. you are simply treating Vox as straight news because you agree with their viewpoints. That's not how this works. You didn't address the usage of first person singular: if a Vox writer says "I", do they refer to Vox as a person? Has Vox shared their pronouns?Take a look at this editorial: It's Not Just Jennifer Lawrence: Women In Pop Culture Are Under Attack by VanDerWerff. It's not labelled opinion/editorial, which it obviously is. I haven't even read the article, yet I know it's an opinion piece because smarter people have said so. In this paper the author explicitly calls it an editorial: "Similarly, the editorials connected the privacy needs of the victims and the privacy needs of "regular women." In Vox, ... VanDerWerff wrote". The Los Angeles Times editorial that is mentioned next is properly labelled opinion. (Another Vox editorial included in the study is mentioned by name only.)What is "Evaluating the scale, growth, and origins of right-wing echo chambers on YouTube", the source you are citing? Preprint? Has it been published in some academic journal? Have you or A. C. Santacruz and XOR'easter who cited you read the source? It's some kind of research about Youtube channels. You say it "puts them in the same category as the Washington Post, the New Yorker, NBC News, and so on", but Vox Youtube channel is also in the same box with "Drunken Peasants", The Grayzone, "The Jimmy Dore Show", "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert", and "The View" (apparently refers to The View (talk show)). In the same source BuzzFeed News, The Intercept, and ProPublica are labelled "far left". The authors didn't come up with the labels, but rather picked them from other sources. [23] used Ad Fontes Media and Media Bias Factcheck, [20] apparently labelled Vox per Media Bias Factcheck, though it's not 100% clear to me at this juncture.Columbia Journalism Review published a piece that covers "best and the worst of recent works of data journalism". Tanveer Ali picks a Vox piece and obviously treats it as an example of the latter. Ali writes "The Vox author seems to be banking on the reader having preconceived notions of life in Tehran rather than explaining what qualities it shares with the St. Louis suburb. ... the reporting and evidence is sorely lacking in the Vox piece to tie the cities with this piece of data ... Other than clickbait, we don't see any reason for the Vox story to exist. In Information Today (Oct2014, Vol. 31 Issue 8, p17-18. 2p.) Mick O'Leary writes "Overall, Vox's explanations work well. The staffers are adept at breaking down extensive news stories into easily comprehended short pieces ... Vox is noticeably left wing. There is more than one way to explain a controversial story, and Vox's interpretations lean to the left. This is fine by itself, but people of different political persuasions may identify Vox as a leftwing site that's to be avoided". (Some of O'Leary's criticism that I have omitted is much outdated: missing "About" page, lack of editorial policy, the dominant role of Ezra Klein, etc.)In Reason, Bobby Soave largely criticises the analysis of Vox's David Roberts: "It's also true that Vox, The New York Times, CNN, et al are closer to neutral than Breitbart or Fox News. But let's not pretend these outlets have ever been very interested in playing nice with conservatives. And in cases where they were willing to humor a conservative perspective, they are often punished for it.Sometimes Vox publishes two pieces that largely cover a topic from two different viewpoints. For example in 2016 Matt Yglesias wrote a piece critical of a Associated Press story. A day later Jeff Stein criticised Yglesias: "On Tuesday, my editor Matt Yglesias argued that that [sic] there's an 'absence of any clear evidence of actual misconduct.' ... By some criteria, Yglesias is certainly right ... But the money in politics experts argued that these aren't the only standards of wrongdoing by which we can or should judge Clinton." So the question is, which of these pieces, if any, we as Wikipedia editors should treat as news? I would say neither and to me this and similar incidents indicate that Vox is not consistently partisan.By the way, Yglesias was smoked out from Vox for unrelated reasons. The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf writes in an editorial that Yglesias's "absence as a staffer ... will make the publication he co-founded less ideologically diverse at a moment when negative polarization makes that attribute important to the country".

I don't think anyone is saying or should be saying that Vox never labels opinion pieces. LaundryPizza03 said "does not segregate op-eds, as other mainstream news sites like The Guardian do", which is true. The fact is that the type of Vox articles that are most commonly cited in English Wikipedia – and I'm not talking about "Recode", "The Verge", and such – are opinion/analysis articles that are not labelled such. Levivich wrote that "use with attribution only". I don't subscribe to that. My view is that editors should assume that Vox is publishing analysis/opinion and carefully consider whether a piece can be cited, not rely on a "green" RSP listing. If the answer is yes, then decide whether content should be attributed per NEWSORG, WP:RSOPINION, NEWSBLOG, and WP:BIASED. Politrukki (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Like, I'm not seeing particularly compelling arguments to change the status quo in a significant way. On a case-by-case basis, it might be appropriate to cite a Vox item as attributed opinion, but that's really just business as usual. Concerns that "it's green at RSP" could end a discussion seem disconnected with how discussions actually happen around here. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 21:55, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Concur. Vox is fine. Attribute if you're particularly concerned. A few editors here think that if they can claim "bias" then factual reliability doesn't hold, and that's not how anything has ever worked here - David Gerard (talk) 02:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Disagree. "Vox is fine", "A few editors here think that if they can claim "bias" then factual reliability doesn't hold, and that's not how anything has ever worked here". https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/vox/ grades Vox as Hard Left bias, as "Mostly Factual", as it has failed two major fact-checks, while only publishing one retraction. "In review, Vox looks at the issues from a progressive liberal perspective, and there is also an anti-Trump tone in their reporting. Therefore, the majority of stories are pro-left and anti-right. Further, Vox publishes stories with emotionally loaded headlines." - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Status Quo. Agree with @David Gerard here. All news is biased. What matters is their reputation for reporting facts accurately. And nothing about that has changed wrt Vox. — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 19:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Disagree. "All news is biased." Actually, not it isn't. The wire services aim for pure objectivity and get the closest (AFP, AP, Reuters). Vox is in nowhere near the same category of these venerable institutions. "What matters is their reputation for reporting facts accurately" - their reputation for that is poor, graded as "Mostly Factual" by https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/vox/ - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Encyclopedias shouldn't be news aggregators while I concur with @David Gerard that Vox is no more or less reliable than any other journalistic source I also am of the opinion that journalistic sources are inappropriate for an encyclopedia per my usual complaint regarding newsmedia and the proliferation of WP:RECENTISM - however I would make sure it's understood that I would say the same thing about the Guardian, the CBC, CNN or China Daily as sources. Simonm223 (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with 's reasoning above. Don't see any compelling reason to reassess Vox. Santacruz  &#8258;  Please ping me!  23:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. Concerned with some of the language used here, such as "Vox is no more or less reliable than any other journalistic source". C'mon, we're better than that, surely? AP, AFP, Reuters, BBC - these are much more fact-based news outlets than the likes of Vox. I was excited when Vox rolled out, with its manifesto of "explanatory journalism", and I knew Ezra Klein's work. Thus I felt equally betrayed when it turned out to not only be below-par when it came to fact-checking, but more importantly fell into the same, safe, lazy NY/DC bubble of received opinion - for all the millions that was invested and all the talk of a new type of online journalism, turns out it's basically a re-hashing of what one can already expect to read on the NY Times opinion pages... but with only the left liberal pieces. I don't know what it is about the USA (being non USAianese myself), but the mainstream media just seem incapable of creating a news outlet that doesn't play party politics, and just, well, does what Vox was supposed to do, explain sh*t to people! Rant over! Vox sux. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Concur with the rest, the status quo is fine. The presented article has two sentences at the end that can be described as the author's opinion, if anything this is restrained, most news publications publish similar articles in line with their individual editorial standpoints. Headlines in general are not reliable, which is already covered at WP:HEADLINES. Tayi Arajakate  Talk 10:53, 11 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: At the very least, the listing should be updated to mention that Vox does not always distinguish fact from opinion in line with evidence provided, and that editors should determine whether an article is fact or opinion before using it. BilledMammal (talk) 21:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not; nobody has presented any evidence beyond "it reads as opinion to me." Compare to eg. The Atlantic  - whose RSP entry currently simply says they are "generally reliable" - that is a source with much more serious problems distinguishing fact and opinion, especially their ideas page, which many editors insist on trying to treat as news; but even the rest of their coverage has a tone essentially similar to the articles that have some people's heckles up above, eg. . If we're going to accept editors just making general readings like that and are going to write them into RSP entries, then a lot of existing RSP entries need to be re-evaluated - and that's a decision we should make as a general policy so as to avoid situations where editors just lash out at statements they disagree with and accept eg. the Atlantic ending articles with stuff like In the age of climate change, in other words, the beaches must remain a playground for the rich—now more than ever to provide the author's opinion on someone's comments. --Aquillion (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The “Ideas” section of The Atlantic is very clearly labeled WP:RSOPINION. That people manage to confuse it for news coverage means that this might be something that should be explicitly added to RSP to better explain the way that The Atlantic breaks out its sections. If the problem is editors' media literacy in distinguishing fact claims from claims, then it might be ok to open a discussion on how to better use that publication. — Mhawk10 (talk) 13:04, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Every news article has to be parsed for fact/opinion distinction at the granularity of individual claims. That remains true whether or not it categorizes articles as news or opinion. For example, if a source says, "It rained on December 10, and that was terrible," the first part necessarily has the character of a fact, and the second part the character of an opinion. Sennalen (talk) 02:31, 16 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Have I missed something? Have we suddenly accepted mediabiasfactcheck.com as a reliable source? Doug Weller  talk 12:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Vox is a generally high-quality source and editors should have enough media literacy to understand what is fact and what is opinion. I'm seeing no evidence of factual errors or a problem in the professionalism of its writers or its corrections process (well, there is one bit of evidence presented above but it's not enough to show a systemic issue). Green is good. If editors don't understand what the green means then that is either their problem or a wider WP:RSP problem. I've found editors don't understand what yellow means ("I can blindly revert your addition of this source and filibuster on the talk page to keep it out of the article"). — Bilorv ( talk ) 00:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Status Quo and I concur that no media bias site is a reliable source. Nor is "well it reads like opinion to me". No journalist simply lists dry facts, which means that all journalism contains some element of analysis. (And even if they did, which facts and in which order would still contain an element of analysis.) Vox is no different. That makes them the same as other news sources, not different. Loki (talk) 07:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

RfC: tghat.com
Question: Which of the following best describes the reliability of tghat.com? — Platonk (talk) 20:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 1: Generally reliable
 * Option 2: Less than generally reliable
 * Option 3: Generally unreliable
 * Option 4: Reliable for their own opinion only
 * Option 5: Other, please specify
 * Option 4 added by Mathglot (talk) at 19:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Background (tghat.com)
The tghat.com website is being increasingly used throughout Wikipedia and is currently used in 143 articles since it was created just one year ago. Its use has engendered edit wars with several editors removing content sourced by it (as non-RS), and a few editors reverting the removals. There was a two-day discussion on RSN in July about tghat.com that discussed, though didn't resolve, the issue. As recently as five days ago, tghat.com has been added as an external link and asserted as a reliable source for a citation. The website's earliest Wayback Machine copy on December 10, 2020 shows it as a blog titled "Chronicling the War on Tigray". The website shows no sense of who is publishing the content. There is a Wikipedia article for Tghat which seems constructed with name-dropping rather than indications of notability. Other news media frame the website in terms of advocacy, not a news organization with an editorial staff, such as:
 * "Tghat, a group of anonymous Tigrayans reporting on the damage done within Tigray during the current conflict"
 * "Pro-Tigray Tghat"
 * "Tghat was founded ... by concerned Tigrayans to chronicle and document the war"
 * "News site Tghat, which is run by a group of Tigrayan activists living abroad"
 * "Tghat, a news site run by pro-TPLF activists"

Examples of how tghat.com is being used in Wikipedia:


 * 143 articles contain "tghat.com".


 * 117 articles contain "A compilation of the verified list of civilian victims from different sources", a database/table which has a "source" column predominantly linking to Facebook or Twitter posts, other tghat content, and personal accounts. According to AP News the database is compiled by a single man and only contains deaths of ethnic Tigrayans, but not ethnic Amhara victims.


 * 2 articles contain a blog post which is a google translation from an article published by Norway newspaper Bergens Tidende. This is probably a copyright violation.


 * 9 articles contain "A Leaked Document: Delegation of the European Union to Ethiopia" (a blog post). This doesn't appear to have a "document" in it, and it was used as a citation in order to insert Tigray War information into the articles of 9 "places/locations".


 * 6 articles contain A graphic footage of the Debre Abay massacre: What do we know about it? a blog post. This was added to two "location" articles where it doesn't really belong.


 * 3 articles contain What happened in Aksum? My personal account (blog post). This was added to one "location" article where it was used to insert information about the Tigray conflict.

The above is not intended to be a comprehensive list of uses in Wikipedia, but is a subset showing the various ways tghat.com has been used.

(As a side note, though still deserving mention here, according to AP News the compiler of the civilian/non-combatant Amhara casualties is the Amhara Association of America, which doesn't have a Wikipedia article, nor is their website amharaamerica.org mentioned at all in Wikipedia mainspace, and yet the Amhara also have numerous civilian casualties during this conflict. I haven't found any Amhara 'massacre' articles in Wikipedia, while finding over a hundred Tigray 'massacre' articles. ADVOCACY or a NPOV/weight issue?)

— Platonk (talk) 20:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Update: The above counts have changed because 25 articles were recently deleted at AfD, most of which contained a link to tghat.com, and making the counts go down. Platonk (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Survey (tghat.com)

 * Option 4 reliable for their own opinion only. This implies use of WP:INTEXT attribution; e.g., "..and according to a member of Tghat, some-opinion-or-assertion-about-something." Mathglot (talk) 20:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 4: agree with 's reasoning both above and in the discussion below. Santacruz  &#8258;  Please tag me!  22:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 1: Generally reliable and attribute to Tghat when in doubt or Option 2: less than generally reliable per WP:USEBYOTHERS. The RS guidelines mostly evolved for rich-country sources without tight internet and telephone blockades. Wikipedia has a fundamental problem in working out how to cover knowledge encyclopedically, avoiding demographic bias, while still using good sources. There is no magic solution, but pedantic interpretation of guidelines will not help in evolving reasonable solutions.In this particular case, as can be seen by the, Tghat has been used by multiple Western mainstream media and academic sources, both preprint and fully peer-reviewed. This is not "name dropping"; it's recognition that Tghat has gained a reputation as a sufficiently reliable source.Side issues on neutrality (1): while there is an LATimes claim that Tghat is "pro-TPLF", this is not very credible from looking at the site itself, which includes, for example, press releases by anti-TPLF political parties (clearly labelling them as such).Side issues on neutrality (2): massacres of Amharas. This is only related in the sense of whether we want to purge Wikipedia of all sources that might help overcome our demographic bias favouring rich-country sources. We do have Benishangul-Gumuz conflict, in which several cases have victims identified as Amharas; in Oromia Region: Gawa Qanqa massacre, Abo church massacre. Having more sources for these would be good, and the AAA site looks (based on an initial quick look) like a good source for articles such as these. In fact, it appears that among the currently known list of Amhara organisations, the articles that exist so far, and , were both created by me, based on the best sources I could find. I wasn't aware of AAA at the time. There are quite likely some sources like these that we should rate "generally unreliable" or "Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated", but having a mix of sources that generally seem reliable and come from a mix of the different ethnic groups of Ethiopia is more in the interests of Wikipedia than refusing to use these sources. Boud (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Added 'or Option 2', as per WP:USEBYOTHERS as pointed out by below, and keeping in mind that the editorship is reported on other web media rather than on the website itself.  Boud (talk) 23:54, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 3: Generally unreliable Tghat is not reliable because it has verifibiliaty issues. Thgat claims to be a news site reporting on current events, not on psuedoscience, the proper context should be given, and not all biased opinions belong in Wikipedia. It heavily relies on social media, and is not independent from the subject it reports on. Reliable sources have used language to describe Tghat as being partisan, compromising it as independent source. As a new site it doesn't appear to have editorial oversight. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 4/5 and describe as being run pro-TPLF activists when summarizing it; the LA Times describes it as such. It is obviously WP:BIASED and, beyond that, definitely not usable for facts, but it shouldn't really be used for opinion either, since it seems that would be plainly WP:UNDUE.  I'm not seeing any evidence of a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy (or even any assertion that they do any fact-checking or have any editorial controls); and they appear to be a personal website of no significant notability.  Coverage is not WP:USEBYOTHERS - is there any indication that any reliable sources treat this list as reputable or reliable? Without that, the only place where it is like to be due is in an article specifically about the site.  I would in particular strenuously object to citing it in any context discussing casualty figures - WP:RSOPINION is meant to be used to establish notable strands of opinion, not to introduce unverified facts to random websites that present them with no fact-checking. Demographic bias is real, but there are actual news sources, academics, and other high-quality sources that can be used for this.  Simply creating a website and listing death totals on it doesn't make someone's opinion significant enough to include in an article - when it is included, it ought to be cited via secondary sources rather than cited directly. Also, dismissing the LA Times (a high-quality source) describing it as being run by activists based on "well I looked at the site and it looked neutral to me" is absurd; that is not how we evaluate sources. Unless someone can find an equal or higher-quality source disagreeing with the LA Times description, any WP:RSP entry absolutely needs to mention that specific bias. --Aquillion (talk) 05:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 2 per WP:USEBYOTHERS. The Associated Press checked some of their reporting and found it accurate. France24 were able to verify the video they posted. The information published by Tghat has been used by scholars. Not fully reliable due to concerns regarding bias and the editing processes raised earlier. Alaexis¿question? 08:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 3/4 doesn't seem to be a reliable news or similar organization as much as an advocacy group. That kind of group has their place, but generally not as a reliable source outside of independent confirmation or their own opinions. SamStrongTalks (talk) 19:36, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 3 - For reasons of being a self-published, anonymously-run, and biased website. The website itself gives no indication of its ownership or editorship. Most of the blog posts are posted by the anonymous user "tghat", who posts no credentials and doesn't use any citations in their articles. Even if a blog post has a seemingly real world name on it, there is no verified-account indicator to ensure it is that person, and that they are a subject matter expert. The victim list is self-published by a single person (whose name we've known only since 10 days ago). Option 4 is worthless as there is nothing an anonymous source is going to say WP:ABOUTSELF, and everything else they would publish falls under WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims and is thus unusable. Ultimately, Wikipedia guidelines for reliable sources are there to make verification possible. Anonymous and self-published make verification impossible. Platonk (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Discussion (tghat.com)
Starting with WP:USEBYOTHERS, its estimation of the number of victims has been mentioned by the LA times. They describe it as "a news site run by pro-TPLF activists". Alaexis¿question? 20:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. Where do you get that? The LA Times article you cited doesn't mention Tghat's victim database or information. It mentions Tghat in the sentence following a victim count by organization Seb Hidri, but doesn't tie the two together. Neither does the Wikipedia article Tghat, nor does the WP article Seb Hidri, nor even the website Tghat.com. Tghat.com has two articles mentioning Seb Hidri but even those articles don't tie the two together. Platonk (talk) 02:13, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Reliability and verifiability are certainly issues. The victim list appears to be a personal victim memorial. I can find no editorial oversight. References to Facebook, Daily Mail, and Twitter as sources are not appropriate. The site appears to be an advocacy for a cause that tilts the balance with a false validity.
 * Following a link such as UN Commissioner for Human Rights Owes Tigrayan Victims an Explanation I cannot verify who Teklai Gebremichael is, apparently a regular contributor. The link Is it a sin to be a Tigrayan? A graduating Tigrayan university student‘s lamentation contains an unknown editor's note: "The following message is written by a graduating student", identified as K. These are not reliable sources nor acceptable as an "External link". -- Otr500 (talk) 04:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , you are right about the victim count. The article says "Tghat, a news site run by pro-TPLF activists, reported on the Bora killings Jan. 12, along with another massacre that reportedly took place in an area called Debre Abay." Note that the Bora killings themselves are not in doubt, the same article reports them as facts earlier. So basically they say that Tghat reported on it 4 days after it happened. Alaexis¿question? 06:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , I think you're really stretching the imagination about what LA Times thinks about Tghat based on this single sentence. Please look again at WP:USEBYOTHERS: "How [they] use a given source ... The more widespread and consistent this use is ... established views of sources..." LA Times' single sentence, in its context, is not an endorsement of Tghat's veracity or accuracy. Platonk (talk) 07:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that the use is widespread but it's not zero either. Are there reliable sources which explicitly call them unreliable or found inaccuracies in their reporting? By the way the absence of reporting on Amhara casualties is irrelevant. The sources can be biased or have a limited scope and still be useful. Alaexis¿question? 09:31, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Without commenting on Tghat's reliability or lack thereof (I'll do that in a separate comment), asking whether there are reliable sources that call Tghat's reliability into question is backwards logic. There is no "presumption of reliability until disproved". There are thousands of activist groups, opinion writers, and individuals publishing their thoughts on blogs and websites, and The Guardian and The Times don't have departments paid to sit around investigating and writing evaluations of every person with an internet connection and an opinion. Mathglot (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , you're completely right. The reason I'm asking is that if, by any chance, they are described as unreliable by reliable sources it would be a very strong argument for classifying them as unreliable here. The opposite is not true: if they aren't described as unreliable we would still need to establish their reliability. Alaexis¿question? 20:08, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Aha, thanks for that clarification. With that understanding, I fully agree with you. Mathglot (talk) 20:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * & WP:IS is clear on biased sources, it still needs to be independent from the subject, the reliable sources descriptions of Tghat clearly tells they are not;  a news site run by pro-TPLF activists, run by activists living abroad. A site run by activists siding(pro-TPLF) with a party to a conflict is advocacy and clearly show connection to the subject. Being called pro anything by reliable sources, already compromises Tghat as a independent/reliable news source in that context. Another concern is the reliance on social media, and after searching the site they have little or none reporting, that is not in some way related to the conflict in Ethiopia. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:15, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You are misreading that. It's true that it needs to independent from the subject in order to be considered WP:INDEPENDENT (one of the attributes of fully reliable sources), but it does not need to be independent from the subject or unbiased in order to be used in citations at Wikipedia in certain contexts. See WP:BIASEDSOURCES: "Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context"; and: "Bias may make in-text attribution appropriate". If the specific context is "the opinions of Tghat activists", then the WP:BIASED source Tghat *is* reliable for that, and may be cited for their own opinions, per the WP:RS guideline previously cited. Mathglot (talk) 21:29, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nope, not misreading that and it's again mentioned in WP:BIASEDSOURCES: When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering. Does Tghat as a source meets the normal requirements? Independence from the topic is very shaky, what about the rest? Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Flat-earthers are WP:BIASED sources that are citable at Wikipedia articles on what Flat-earthers believe; Moon hoaxers are reliable for what moon-hoaxers believe, and Tghat is reliable for what Tghat believes, and needs no independence, editorial control, or fact-checking for that. The fact that they may be unreliable for all basic assertions of fact does not negate that, and that's what the rest of the guideline you quoted is about. Mathglot (talk) 22:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Incomparable contexts and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, editorial oversight matters for a news site claiming to report on current events, level of independence matters. There is a long list of opinions from news sites marked as unreliable in Reliable sources/Perennial sources, biased sources can still be invalid through other aspects, such as verifibiliaty, also see WP:SUBSTANTIATE. Tghat is also WP:NOTRELIABLE for it's reliance on WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK. There's are serieus reliability issues with this news site, comparison with Psuedoscience does not fit this context. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 23:32, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You continue to misconstrue. Even articles marked "generally unreliable" or even as bad as "deprecated" at Perennial sources may *still* be cited nevertheless, as the guideline supplement you quoted very clearly states, and which agrees with all the others regarding WP:RSOPINION. I have no wish to debate you anymore; !vote your opinion based on your best interpretation of policies and guidelines, and hopefully everyone else will do the same. Have a nice day! Mathglot (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We disagree and that's fine, have a nice day. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)


 * If the argument is that RS use tghat means tghat is RS, I don't see why one couldn't use forgo including tghat altogether and just cite the reputable sources covering the content. Tghat does not seem to be reliable. Additionally, this conflict is quite recent so we should be patient and remember that if tghat is the only site covering a massacre, it will be covered later in news and even later in academia if it is notable (WP:NODEADLINE). But back to the reliability topic, no I don't believe tghat is reliable based on how their content is created. A. C. Santacruz  &#8258;  Talk  21:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - (Re the argument presented above about a scarcity of "rich country" media coverage and how we must bend our Wikipedia rules in order to allow Tghat as a source to reasonably cover the Tigray conflict.) A brief look in the Reference sections of Tigray War and Timeline of the Tigray War, finds such usual reliable sources as:
 * Reuters, Al Jazeera, BBC News, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, The Guardian
 * There are also numerous Africa-centric and Ethiopia-centric organizations mentioned in the citations, including:
 * Europe External Programme with Africa: Belgian-based NGOs "involved in human rights issues particularly in the Horn of Africa and North Africa."
 * New Business Ethiopia: "Founded by an award-winning journalist, Andualem Sisay Gessesse" (since 2009)
 * Foreign Policy: "American news publication, founded in 1970 and focused on global affairs"
 * Fana Broadcasting: "a state-owned mass media company operating in Ethiopia"
 * African Arguments: "a pan-African platform for news, investigation and opinion." Editor and deputy editor named. Editor is an experienced journalist and editor.
 * Ipi Global Observatory: "provides timely analysis on peace and security issues by experts, journalists, and policymakers. It is published by the International Peace Institute." Personnel are named.
 * Addis Standard: "an Ethiopian monthly social, economic and political news magazine." registered, info given
 * There are also seemingly lesser-reliable websites used for citations, including:
 * Ezega News: "the premier Ethiopian portal that provides the Ethiopian community at home and abroad information and data". (no names given)
 * Eritrea Hub: Blog format, no about-us page. "Information about Eritrea and the Horn of Africa."
 * Ethiopia Insight: "coverage of Ethiopian political and economic issues". No names.
 * There are dozens of other sources I didn't recognize and didn't click on. And this list is from just looking at less than 5% of the citations. My point being that we have a plethora of sources available to us that we can denote as reliable sources, and renders moot the argument that we need tghat.com and need to bend the reliable source rules because of alleged "demographic bias".

— Platonk (talk) 03:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * A lot of your sources are located in Addis-Abeba and some are government-affiliated so we should expect to get only one side of the story from them ("media coverage has become a “very sensitive” topic for the government, said Befeqadu Hailu, an Ethiopian journalist imprisoned for 18 months by the previous regime."). It is well known that journalists are not welcome in the zone of conflict now ("Within hours, the internet in Tigray was shut down and journalists were blocked from entering the region."). It doesn't follow from this that we need to bend our rules but the argument that there are plenty of RS coverage is spurious. Alaexis¿question? 06:35, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You cannot infer anything based on "Platonk's tiny sample". I did not select a sampling based on their physical location, but on the presence of citations in the references sections of the two main Wikipedia articles for the Tigray conflict. I just scrolled and picked the top few, then grabbed a couple others. When I had looked at enough to make a small list, I quit looking further. Go look at the references section yourself. I'm sure not going to spend hours combing through the over 600 references just to convince you of anything. My original point still stands: we have numerous international, American, European, African, and Ethiopian sources already being cited. I remind you that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, we are not journalists, and Wikipedia does not need to cover every little aspect of the Tigray conflict as it unfolds. No one is going to die because we don't use tghat.com here in Wikipedia. Platonk (talk) 07:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You prepared this list as a response to the comment about the scarcity of data sources. My point is that this list in no way proves there is no scarcity, for the reasons listed in the NYT article I linked. Alaexis¿question? 07:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That wasn't its purpose. My point was that with over 500 editors having edited the two main articles, that they have already found and cited sufficient RS sources without needing tghat.com. There are 784 citations in the Tigray war article and the timeline articles. Only 13 citations point to tghat-hosted articles and 15 to the tghat victim list. Comparing that to the other 756 citations — yes, I can confidently say there is no shortage of reliable sources such that Wikipedia editors would need to resort to using an anonymously-published website. Scarcity of reporters on the ground in the region is irrelevant to this specific RfC, unless one is trying to make the argument that somehow tghat.com writers are filling that role while no other reliable sources are. Platonk (talk) 11:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The Tigrayan diaspora activists do not name themselves on the website itself, but Meron Gebreananaye and Gebrekirstos Gebremeskel are both named publicly on a website that publishes a variety of views by Ethiopian intellectuals. So the adjective "anonymously-published" is inaccurate. The lack of knowledge on how to make a website "look professional" with a "Who we are" page of key people does not make it anonymous.As for Ethiopian sources of information, the number is small. Looking at two main articles alone does not seriously cover the topic; Template:Syrian Civil War has about 425 articles for a civil conflict in a country of 18 million people. This case risks extending across a country of 110 or so million people, in which federal government control of the international media and national media is getting tighter and tighter in the areas outside of the TDF-OLA controlled regions. The internet/telephone blockade and control of communication devices at border controls makes reporting from inside the Tigray extended region difficult. Reports on the Axum massacre with victim counts ranging from 100 (Ethiopian Human Rights Commission) to "thousands" (Associated Press) took about 40 days to reach the outside world. Adigrat University lecturer Getu Mak's early February testimony, about 70 days after the event, published by Tghat, was one of the first reliable reports that was consistent with later reports (e.g. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch).So yes, there is a scarcity of sources for this field of knowledge as a whole, and the WP:USEBYOTHERS of Tghat information shows that generally, though not always, Tghat provides reliable information. Saying that the source is not needed because it's confirmed by others is reversing WP:USEBYOTHERS. Boud (talk) 23:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just a small comment on the "40 days" issue: there is no rush to add content to this encyclopaedia (WP:NODEADLINE), especially about contentious topics. Yes, it is important to have up-to-date information. But if major news outlets with long histories of reputable reporting are delaying their news items about certain events, it is probable that those events are highly complex and hard to get accurate information for. Therefore, WP should not jump the gun and use less reputable sources just because major reputable ones haven't published yet. Additionally, saying that because Tghat is RS because its report was then consistent with reputable reports is a post hoc fallacy. Finally, the idea that +600 sources is too few sources such that the use of tghat is necessary is almost probatio diabolica as the burden of proof for to provide even more than that or analyze all those 600 sources just to show tghat isn't absolutely necessary is an inordinate requirement when it is much simpler to prove or disprove whether tghat is RS period.  Santacruz  &#8258;  Please tag me!  00:20, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We don't have to jump the gun and there's no deadline, but we have had en.Wikipedia coverage of recent news become generally accepted since the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami that affected the south-east Asian economic tigers. We do have to make reasonable efforts to balance against our known demographic bias and the dominance of Western rich-country mainstream media. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia about the world, not an encyclopedia about how the West sees the world. Given that we do have generally reliable sources such as Tghat, there's no reason to restrict ourselves to a circular argument about the Western mainstream media being reputable because what they do is reputable. Post hoc fallacy is not an argument against WP:USEBYOTHERS; there's no claim that Tghat had a causal effect on later reports; the question is whether later reports agreed with Tghat's information. See WP:USEBYOTHERS for the details.The 600+ argument is mostly an apples and oranges argument. Boud (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if Tghat.com incorporated as an NGO, published bios of their main personnel and leadership, and was older than its current one year age, they would still be an advocacy organization and we would be limited in how we could use what they publish. The man who runs the website (Gebrekirstos Gebreselassie or Gebrekirstos Gebremeskel or however he spells his name today) presents himself as the manager of a website, a researcher and an activist — no credentials mentioned of being a reporter or an editor, or even an academic. And he isn't even located in Africa so one can't give him points for "boots on the ground and eyes front". A dozen brief mentions by reputable sources do not make tghat.com a "reliable source by proxy". Platonk (talk) 10:33, 26 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Close has been requested. Platonk (talk) 08:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Saving Country Music
Bumping this since it got no attention last time...

I have seen Saving Country Music show up in a myriad of country music-related articles. According to the about page, it is written and published entirely by one person. This means that there is no editorial oversight or fact-checking involved. The content of such blog does lean a bit WP:POLEMIC at times with regards to the author's opinions on country music, not to mention the severe ego of the about page in such terms as "first journalist to discover Sturgill Simpson". By these standards, Saving Country Music is not a WP:RS.

In addition, most of the uses I've seen of it are for biographical information, peacocking a barely-notable artist, or unduly pushing the author's viewpoints. Given the nature of the site, it should clearly be at least deprecated, if not outright blacklisted.

Paging, , , due to their history of edits related to the topic. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 17:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I also find Saving Country Music to be an unreliable source. The word "editor" (used to the describe the person managing this website in this case) is a loose term. He/she appears to wear multiple hats, which is fine in some circumstances. Yet in this case the "editor" often does approach his writing from a non-biased standpoint. I have often avoided this website due to its biased language. When we evaluate media outlets for reliable sources we should consider whether or not they any professional journalistic background. If they appear not to, then their content should be avoided. In this case, Saving Country Music should be avoided. ChrisTofu11961 (talk) 23:35, 24 December 2021 (UTC)


 * While I won't pretend to have taken an in-depth look at the site in question, the fact that either it or its author have evidently been repeatedly cited in reputable journals indicates to me that it is reliable. However, given that it basically appears to be a one-man blog, it would probably be a mistake to give too much weight to it in articles, and certainly, claims made by the author about himself should be taken with a large grain of salt. Gatoclass (talk) 08:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I've got some familiarity with this particular website, and having read a few of its pieces before, I'd recommend against its use for most purposes. It's essentially a one-person blog, has a tendency towards the polemic, and a tendency to self-aggrandize.  While I wouldn't say it should never be used, there's generally going to be better sources for things such as biographical information, and we need to make sure that usage here meets due weight, given the nature of the claims it makes itself (the Sturgill one is a good example) and the tendency to publish polemic-like pieces. Hog Farm Talk 19:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

victimsofcommunism.org
victimsofcommunism.org is a website of an educational and research foundation with an academic council with research and education programs. It was previously discussed here, but just because people think it has an anti-communist bias (which it obviously does) isn't a valid reason to reject it as completely unreliable, per WP:BIASEDSOURCES. It certainly is a reliable source for it’s own views on communism, however biased some think that is, and the usage context in Mass killings under communist regimes is to present their attributed view: ”In 2016, the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation made an effort to compile ranges of estimates using sources from 1976 to 2010, and wrote in its Dissident blog that the overall range "spans from 42,870,000 to 161,990,000" killed”, where the linked article Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation makes clear in the first line of that article it is a ”non-profit anti-communist organization”. --Nug (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems Nug forgot to mention that this source has been recently a subject of the RSN discussion. Nug is perfectly aware of the previous discussion, so I have no clue why he never mentioned it.
 * In addition to that, the problem with this source not its reliability. It is closely affiliated with the US authorities: It was established by the Act of Congress, and is currently lead by Andrew Bremberg, a former director of the Domestic Policy Council in the Trump's administration. In addition to this source, the article cites three other sources that are closely affiliated with the US federal authorities of with VoC. That creates a serious bias, for Wikipedia is not supposed to reflect official position of any state.
 * In addition,this source provides desperately obsolete data for the USSR, so it is unreliable for the USSR and for the total figure. The highest figures available from modern data (e.g. Rosefielde) are at least three times lower.
 * In addition, the link to this "source" is a dead link. This information is available only from some web depository, and it is not at the official site any more. Therefore, there is no proof that these figures reflect a current position of VoC. No matter if this source reliable or not: it does not say that anymore, so, strict;y speaking, it is not a source. Paul Siebert (talk) 04:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ?? I did link the previous RSN discussion above. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is also closely affliated with the US government and was established by an Act of Congress and is led by political appointees. --Nug (talk) 05:12, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My bad, a blue colour is barely visible on my monitor.
 * However, your summary of previously expressed opinia is somewhat deceptive. Yes, majority of users pointed out that it is an extremely biased source, however, many of them noted its poor reputation in fact checking and accuracy, and their tendency to exaggerate figures.
 * WRT CDC, do you claim that CDC as a source is independent from the US government?
 * In addition, the main goal of VoC is not a study of Communism, but "educating Americans about the ideology, history and legacy of communism." In other words, this is not a neutral research institution, but the organisation that pursue some ideological goals in accordance with the policy of the US administration.
 * And, finally, you carefully avoid an answer to my criticism: it is no evidence that VoC figures reflect a current point of view of this organisation: its web site contains no such figures. I pointed your attention at that fact previously, why you restore a dead link? Paul Siebert (talk) 05:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The Foundation is a bi-partisan non-profit, the Act of Congress that created the Foundation was signed into law by Democrat Bill Clinton. Regardless of your personal politics, the source is acceptable per WP:BIASEDSOURCES, and usage in this context is appropriately attributed to them. There are no policy issues against using Wayback machine, even Reliable_sources and Reliable_sources uses it. Nug (talk) 05:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * BIASEDSOURCES say that biased sources may be reliable in the specific context, and that is exactly what I say: it is reliable for the views expressed by organisations that have close ties with US administration, but not for figures themselves, and that is a proper context for its usage.
 * WRT Wayback mashine, the main link is not dead in your example. Paul Siebert (talk) 05:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The CDC also has close ties with the US administration, so this argument is nonsense. And the claim that it has a “poor reputation in fact checking and accuracy” is totally without any evidence what so ever. The Academic council is comprised of these scholars, many of them specialists in communist studies: Peter Rollberg (chair), Peter Boettke, Jonathan Brent, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Paul A. Goble, Paul R. Gregory, Hope M. Harrison, John Earl Haynes, Harvey Klehr, Mark Kramer, A. James McAdams, Sean McMeekin, Aaron Rhodes (editor of Dissident), David Satter, F. Flagg Taylor IV and George Weigel. --Nug (talk) 06:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I share 's concern that the figures are not on the website anymore. JBchrch   talk  06:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If the figures compiled in 2016 are not on the website anymore, it appears as though the VoC memorial foundation doesn't stands by them anymore. The sentence should thus be removed from Wikipedia, especially if we identified methodological errors in the calculation. Mottezen (talk) 07:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Bias is not an issue and never is. I think this is usable with attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 10:13, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * They have stated that they include the entirety of the end-total global death toll resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic (which now stands at over five million) as part of their tally of historical victims of communism: 1 2 3 (see their executive summary for link 2, in which they make clear they are talking about the end total no matter what that is). Their TL;DR reason for this is "China and the W.H.O. lied, people died, it was all communism". You can make of that what you will, but it has made me rather skeptical of their judgement. I will grant that they haven't repeated this line since last year, though, to my best knowledge. Probably prefer better academic sources where possible. --Chillabit (talk) 12:55, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * OK and pushing Covid misinformation is enough for me to say no it is not an RS, it's political get in the way of factual reportingSlatersteven (talk) 13:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's enough reason to not take them seriously. Chuck 'em on the unreliable pile. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Two notes. Firstly, if the source being used is currently a dead link, we cannot be sure the organization stands behind the opinion presented, and phrasing their support in the present tense is problematic. Further, if they attribute the entirety of COVID deaths to communism, I question the value of including deeply polemic sources in our articles. Is there no better source for the information you want to include? This one seems deeply dishonest. Hipocrite (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Due to the dead link and their COVID-19 misinformation and politicization, without any reliable source giving secondary coverage to that article and not being a good tertiary source on its own in light of all this, it is undue and not a good tertiary source. Attempting to merge it with other more reliable U.S. government sources, which has been Siebert's argument for using this and similar sources, would be too close to OR/SYNTH without a secondary source doing it for us. All of this may be worth to mention, including their fringe COVID-19 Communist death toll, at Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation as their own views but not anywhere else. Davide King (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

This is not the first time when this source is discussed here, therefore, in makes sense to collect all arguments in one place, to avoid their repetition. I checked the archived copy, and I found the "Works Consulted" section.
 * The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is an advocacy organization, and it should be treated as such. Use in-text attribution, use secondary sources to ensure due weight, and be cautious with WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims. MarioGom (talk) 18:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. Use scholarship. Levivich 03:06, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not in favor of using this website, as expressed above, but sometimes advocacy organizations can be reliable, such as WP:SPLC.  JBchrch   talk  03:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This idea that dead links no longer contain reliable information is incorrect. Because every link dies eventually. Links can be taken for many reasons that have nothing to do with reliability or "standing by" the data, it's the nature of online media. Otherwise we do we bother with archive links, delete ever citation when the link dies. -- Green  C  03:18, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This is true, but when an organization dedicated to anti-communism removes from its website the number of victims of communism, we might need to think about why that may be, and consider that it might not be just linkrot. (My personal and uninformed opinion is that it's probably because they don't want to host information that contradicts the "100 million" figure that they display prominently.)  JBchrch   talk  03:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It is natural to conclude that these are the sources that were used for the final figure. Below, I analyse the quality of the sources from this list.


 * Brzezinski, Zbigniew. Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century. New York: Simon and Schuster, 2010.
 * Actually, this book was published in 1993: Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century. New York: Collier Books, 1993. ISBN 978-0684826363. I see no evidences that the figure of 60,000,000 million is a recent addition to the 2010 edition. Therefore, this book is the old source. In addition, the author mentions this figure in passing, it is highly unlikely this figure was a result of his own research.


 * Courtois, Stéphane, Nicolas Werth, Jean-Louis Panné, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartošek, and Jean-Louis Marolin. The Black Book of Communism. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1999.
 * This is a very controversial source, which was the subject of several RSN discussions, and the figure of 85-100 million is the most criticised and controversial statements in this book.


 * “Cambodians Recall Massacres.” AP, May 22, 1987. Per WP:NEWSORG, reliability of this source depends on context, and, since it is not clear what exact invormation VoC took from it, no judgement about its reliability can be made. The source looks desperately outdated.
 * Fitzgerald, Mary Anne. “Tyrant for the taking.” The Times (London), April 20, 1991. Per guidelines, this source is reliable for the author's opinion. It is outdated too.
 * Katz, Lee Michael. “Afghanistan’s President is Ousted.” USA Today, April 17, 1992. A piece of outdated news, which may or may not be reliable.
 * Li, Cheng-Chung. The Question of Human Rights on China Mainland. Republic of China: World Anti-Communist League, 1979. What Is That Outdated Trash?
 * Panin, Dimitri. Translated by John Moore. The Notebooks of Sologdin. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1976. This is an outdated estimate of Soviet death statistics. ALL researchers who study USSR, including even Conquest, reconsidered their old data in light on freshly discovered archival documents that became available after fall of the USSR. This source is never used by serious modern historians.
 * Rummel, R. J. Death by Government. New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1994. AND
 * Rummel, R. J. Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917. New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers, 1990.
 * these two sources use the same data summarised by Rudolph Rummel. Rummel was a subject of the RSN discussions too (, (this may be relevant too)), and a conclusion was that he is not reliable for figures. Some fresh source that supports this conclusion is Karlsson
 * "... there have been major differences between the results presented by radical spokespeople for the different paradigms. While Jerry Hough suggested Stalin’s terror claimed tens of thousands of victims, R.J. Rummel puts the death toll of Soviet communist terror between 1917 and 1987 at 61,911,000. In both cases, these figures are based on an ideological preunderstanding and speculative and sweeping calculations. On the other hand, the considerably lower figures in terms of numbers of Gulag prisoners presented by Russian researchers during the glasnost period have been relatively widely accepted."
 * I believe noone can question reliability of Karlsson.


 * Tolz, Vera. “Ministry of Security Official Gives New Figures for Stalin’s Victims.” Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Research Report. May 1, 1992. (The figure of seven million direct executions under Stalin, given by a member of the security services heading a commission for rehabilitation, may be taken as an absolute baseline figure to which should be added the many deaths suffered by labor camp inmates and the deaths preceding and following the Stalin period.) - Again, that is a desperately outdated piece of news.
 * “Top defector says famine has killed over three million Koreans.” Agence France Presse, March 13, 1999. - the same.
 * Vickery, Michael. Cambodia 1975 – 1982. Boston: South End Press, 1984. Actually, Cambodia is the only non-controversial piece of information. Interestingly, it is so uncontroversial, that the state that stopped this genocide was Communist Vietnam, and the state that started a propaganda campaign explaining the scale and horrors of this genocide was Communist USSR (while US provided Pol Pot with a tacit political support). That is arguable the only reliable source in this list.
 * Zucchino, David. “’The Americans … They Just Drop Their Bombs and Leave.’” Los Angeles Times, June 2, 2002. - again, WP:NEWSORG.
 * Matthew White’s website Necrometrics provides a useful compilation of scholarly estimates of the death toll of major historical events. - This is especially interesting. This source was authored by a self-described atrocitologist (who can explain me what does it mean?). However, what is interesting, this source takes information from: (i) Rudolph Rummel, Stephane Courtois, Zbigniew Brzezinski, i.e. the authors that are already named in this list.

Frankly, this desperately outdated sources that pick information from each other may be a reason why VoC removed this statement from their web site. The figures are outdated and unreliable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


 * No one is claiming their figures are up to date and reliable, it is just a mention of their attempt to estimate it in 2016 "In 2016, the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation made an effort to compile ranges of estimates...". Given it was made back in 2016, web archive of it is entirely appropriate. Regardless of your personal politics the VoCMF is a significant and notable organisation, their view ought to be presented regardless of your personal opinion of it. How would WP:NPOV be achieved if all right-wing views are removed from a politically charged topic. That why we have WP:BIASEDSOURCES. --Nug (talk) 01:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * You are actually advocating citing a source you acknowledge is outdated and unreliable in order to achieve 'WP:NPOV'? I suggest you read the first sentence of that policy: "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." WP:NPOV is achieved through citing reliable sources, not unreliable ones. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a poor understanding of policy. Read WP:BIASEDSOURCES: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective . Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. " Even if you think the view of Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation isn't objective, it can't be excluded if you want to achive NPOV. --Nug (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That is not how NPOV works. Achieving NPOV doesn't require citing this source (or any source, see WP:NPOV: ), and we certainly don't include biased sources in order to counterbalance other biased sources. We don't cite think tanks or advocacy groups because they are not reliable sources, because they are not independent of the subject they are covering (unlike scholarship and journalism). It's not about bias, it's about independence, and though WP:BIASEDSOURCES is part of WP:RS and not WP:NPOV, let's not forget the rest of what WP:BIASEDSOURCES says: This source does not meet  because as an advocacy organization, it has a low . Levivich 02:15, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The American Heart Association is also an advocacy organization, advocating heart health through its educational programs. I already pointed to the fact that VoCMF has an academic board, it has a research and educational program, what evidence do you have that is doesn't have a reputation for fact checking, apart from your personal opinion? --Nug (talk) 03:33, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not the same kind of "advocacy". While the AHA might "advocate" for heart health, there is nobody on the other side advocating against heart health. Levivich 03:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I won't comment on the rest of the RSN as I'd rather not involve myself with the whole communism assessment effort in the last few weeks (bless all of you with the patience to do so). I do want to comment that I am increasingly annoyed by marking all groups of people that hold an opinion, professional or otherwise, as equally guilty of advocacy. Advocacy groups have different characteristics, goals, and methods and they are not all the same. At this point I'm almost expecting to read someone say that the Arsonist Lobby Group (fictional) and the legislators of the US fire code are both advocacy groups and neither should be trusted. Santacruz  &#8258;  Please ping me!  13:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No, Nug, I do not have a 'poor understanding of policy'. You, on the other hand, seem to, given your apparent belief that 'balance' is to be achieved by selecting sources for their political perspectives, rather than for their compliance with elementary tenets of said policies. Frankly, I'm astonished that a contributor with your experience could have such a fundamental misunderstanding of such matters. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * NPOV means summarizing the available RS without distortion. If the available RS lean to the right, so too will the article content, probably, and likewise if they lean to the left. (For example, if the only places a book has been reviewed are the Wall Street Journal, the Economist and the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, our article is going to read differently than if the reviews had been in the Guardian and the Daily Beast, and that's just how the cookie crumbles.) We don't aim for false balance by shoving mediocre sources under one side of the fulcrum. "Neutrality" doesn't mean saying one positive thing for every negative thing, or one left-wing thing for every right-wing thing. Sheesh. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 03:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay, so you are advocating removing any viewpoints by Kristen Ghodsee, a frequent contributor to Jacobin, a leading voice of the American left, with respect to MKuCR? --Nug (talk) 03:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * XOR'easter is correct. Of course, Nug avoided to mention in their fallacy that as an anthropologist, ethnographer, and specialist in former European Communist regimes, she is used for her speciality in memory analysis, that being a leftist is not considered to be an indictment to reliability in academia, that she is backed by other scholars like Neumayer, and she is used to say uncontroversial things about the use of body-counting and criticism. So that is indeed a strawman and false balance on their part. Davide King (talk) 11:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Nug, please, keep in mind that that is a "Reliable Source Noticeboard". Whereas neutrality considerations are still important, the primary issue that we are discussing here is reliability of the sources, which includes a reputation of fact checking and accuracy. To cite NPOV in a discussion about WP:V is disruptive.
 * During this discussion, we must come to a conclusion if this source uses a fresh and recent information or an outdated and unreliable one, and if it treats this information correctly. After that, we may decide (here or elsewhere) if this source can or cannot be used in some concrete context.
 * Do you have any objections to the statement that it uses obsolete data and is heavily based on the (highly controversial) Black Book figures and (even more controversial) Rummel's data? Do you have any rational objections to that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You seem to be labouring under some kind of misconception that the total death toll is some kind of precise number, but as you know, it can never be a determined beyond an estimate, and there are many different estimates. As Harff states "That is in fact an inevitable problem for those seeking reliable data on mass casualties. Few perpetrators make accurate counts of their victims. Estimates diverge widely … I fully understand what it takes to collect reliable, unimpeachable global data. It is impossible. … Over time I have become more critical of country experts who challenge systematic empirical studies. Case studies are scarce, of dubious accuracy, or non-existent for some episodes of mass death, and estimates vary greatly. Some episodes dating back to before say, 1918 happened in countries that no longer exist or in countries that did not yet exist. Colonial authorities in Africa and Asia kept scarce or no records of birth or death rates. Perpetrators seldom keep records of their misdeeds and if they do, as in Nazi Germany, death estimates often are greatly underestimated or attributed to circumstances rather than deliberate policies.". I already pointed to the fact that VoCMF has an academic board, it has a research and educational program, what evidence do you have that is doesn't have a reputation for fact checking, and are less reliable than say, William Blum? --Nug (talk) 03:33, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Nobody is expecting an exact figure for a death toll, but there are such things as really bad estimates. As for the rest, well, the Discovery Institute has a board and claims to conduct research and educational programs. The existence of such things doesn't say very much at all. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 03:53, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But we still cite the Discovery Institute as to their view on Intelligent design. --Nug (talk) 03:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The difference, of course, is that we are using secondary, independent reliable sources to summarize their views, not the Discovery Institute themselves, which can only be reliable for uncontroversial "About" stuff. We have no such secondary coverage about this Dissident blog article, which makes it undue, especially when several of the sources they cite, we already mention them. Their 40–160-ish range estimates have not been picked up by any reliable or scholarly source, and considering they said that they are going to add COVID-19 deaths to the body count, it is moot; it shows their unreliability, and went into fringe territory and misinformation. Davide King (talk) 12:08, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * you are just unfamiliar with sources. There is a consensus among scholars that the number of Great Purge victims is about 1.2 million. There is some uncertainty, but it is minimal. There is a consensus that the number of GULAG deaths is in between 1.6 and 1.8 million, and the amount of people who passed through the GULAG system is 18 million, although if we include broader categories, the number of deaths may increase to 2.7 million. Even such an old school anti-Communist as Conquest recognized that. These are consensus figures, and to say otherwise is tantamount to claiming that the Holocaust killed, e.g. 10 million Jews. Only freaks may claim that.
 * A consensus figure of Great Purge deaths (including executions and camp deaths) is 1.2 million. Rummel says it was 4.3 million.
 * A consensus figure of GULAG deaths is 1.7 at most (ok, let's say 2.7, which may include deportation deaths). Rummel says that only post-Stalin camp deaths amounted to 6.8 million (according to all respectable scholars there were no GULAG in that time, and mortality in prisons was quite moderate, which means those 6.8 million were taken from this air).
 * A consensus figure for Soviet civilian deaths as a result of the policy of Soviet authorities during WWII (GULAG mortality, execution, etc) is ~1 million. Rummel says 13 million: that is bigger that all military losses and comparable with all civilian losses.
 * And so on, and so forth.
 * Note, I know the real figures, because it was me who added all (or a significant part of) this information to Wikipedia. I can prove that with sources. I can take (again) Rummel's "Death by government" from the library, and analyze each reference at this (or any other) Wikipedia page, and I can show that each source that Rummel uses the USSR is an obsolete piece of trash that is not recognized seriously by most (or all) experts in Soviet Russia.
 * I can do that, because I am familiar with sources, I know the present state of knowledge of this subject, and I want Wikipedia to be seen as a respectable informational resource, not a collection of various gossips and fairy tales.
 * In contrast, you can respond just with vague speculations that "noone can know for sure", and this your baseless assertion is the only justification of your persistent pushing of obsolete figures that discredits Wikipedia. Why are you doing that? Why are you not going to your library? Paul Siebert (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

They are RS for their views, not for those views being facts.Slatersteven (talk) 12:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Do I understand you correct that you said "VoC is a RS for the article about VoC, not about Communism"? If that is what you say, I, obviously, agree.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Not quite, what I meant is they are an RS for their views, not for those views being facts. So this would be more an issue of undue than RS. So we could say "according to...".Slatersteven (talk) 15:57, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, the 'views' they held regarding the specific issue being discussed are sourced to an archived webpage. Is there any reason to assume they still hold them? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant, they were pushing a conspiracy theory, that (to my mind) raises questions about impartially and fact-checking. Indeed if anything it makes it worse, as it (to my mind) implies they belived it when told to by their political masters, and now it's not being pushed by their political masters are no longer pushing it. That makes them a propaganda outfit, and thus need to be treated as such.Slatersteven (talk) 16:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Your argument is unclear. We can write "According to X, the Moon is made of blue cheese" only if there are serious reason to believe that the opinion of X is important and relevant to the article's topic. Therefore, we cannot put "According to VoC ... " at any article: we can do that only in a certain context, for example, in a context of anti-Communist propaganda, but not in a context of a neutral academic discourse.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hence why I said "So this would be more an issue of undue than RS".Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 15 December 2021 (UTC0
 * Clearly not a reliable source for the reasons given above. And if it isn't clear that they stand by a statement, we can't even use that with attribution. Doug Weller  talk 17:03, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In this one instance yes, I am talking about the wider issue of general reliability. I think it is clear they are far too biased to be used for statements of fact, about anything.Slatersteven (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable, and the previous discussion concluded as much: Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_329. Given the group's commentary on Covid-19, they seem to be approaching WP:FRINGE status. Should not be used in articles. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unreliable Arguments that as this organisation is "bipartisan" it is neutral are rather amusing! World politics exists between the Democrats and the Republicans, therefore if they agree something is true, it must be. In reality this source exists only to advocate a point of view that Communism is terrible and so cherry picks data to fit that pov. Things appear and disappear off its website but then come back in other places, it is not clear who writes which parts of its content and their qualifications. Its website is not organised enough to use securely, its official publications might be usable if prefixed with "anti-Communist advocacy group. the Victims of Communism memorial foundation states", but I would be very careful to find specific papers which have been cited by academics. Incidentally, I wonder why there is no Victims of Capitalism memorial foundation" in the USA? Boynamedsue (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unreliable, per Doug Weller and K.e.coffman. Ought not to be used in articles. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unreliable, per more or less all the arguments presented above, and per the previous discussion. Nothing in this discussion actually amounts to a serious claim that the source is 'reliable' per Wikipedia norms - instead inclusion of a clearly questionable source is being presented as as a means to make the article 'neutral' according to some imagined standard. That isn't how WP:RS works, it isn't how WP:NPOV works, and is fundamentally opposed to core principles of the project. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unreliable. Putting aside the fact that they've pushed fringe views, there is no indication of any sort of fact-checking process or any degree of editorial controls on their website; they're not even purporting to make the basic effort that would let us start to consider whether a source is a WP:RS.  They have no particular reputation for fact-checking or accuracy.  There may be a few advocacy organizations that manage to pass WP:RS through these things, but the simple fact that something is an advocacy organization with a website obviously doesn't make them reliable.  Similarly, I feel like people are turning WP:BIASED ass-backwards in discussions like these - bias alone does not disqualify a source, but bias alone certainly doesn't make a source reliable, either; some of the arguments above seem to basically say "the source is biased and you can't disqualify a biased source, therefore it is reliable!" The problem here isn't that the source is biased or even that they are an advocacy organization, the problem is that they are only these things, with no reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, editorial controls, or anything else outside of that that would make them usable as a RS. Also - and I am tired of belaboring this point, but it is necessary - WP:RSOPINION does not allow us to cite random unreliable sources just by slapping an in-text attribution on them; it is a subset of WP:RS.  It defines sources that meet RS to an extent, but only enough for opinion; it is not something that allows RS to be ignored entirely, so some degree of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy is still required. Otherwise, we could cite opinion to Reddit threads and random YouTube channels! The default standard for RSOPINION is eg. labeled opinion pieces in an RS, not just "is an advocacy org and has a website" - this is nowhere near that and is therefore a bad source even for opinion. --Aquillion (talk) 04:53, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Additional considerations apply. VoCom is an anti-communist think tank. Like the vast majority of think tanks, there are some things that it produces that should just be ignored when writing an encyclopedia: VoCom's numbers on the Communist Death Toll suffer significant methodological problems and should not be used in WikiVoice. That being said, that topline death toll number is a very small amount of what they actually do; I'd strongly caution users against trying to use this discussion as a proxy for how they feel about the current state of mass killings under communist regimes. Personally, I would recommend ignoring everything written by a think tank that isn't actually written in a report or academic style (random blog pages, even from the Council on Foreign Relations, are not generally good things to cite). However, it would be very sloppy to label the foundation writ large with one broad stroke.
 * The area of the foundation that is most reliable is the academic research produced through its study centers. They break down into three silos: China Studies, Latin America programs, and Poland Studies. Each silo appears to operate without much overlap in terms of staffing. The China Studies and Latin America programs seem to be well-run. I have some concerns regarding the Poland Studies staffing choices.
 * The foundation's China Studies fellows are both well-respected and well-accomplished. Adrian Zenz, who is a world-renowned expert on the abuses in Xinjiang and regularly publishes peer-reviewed works on the subject in respected journals, is a fellow at the foundation. Ethan Gutmann, whose work on Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China has been incredibly detailed and influential, is also a fellow in China Studies at the foundation. Matthew Robertson, the third China Fellow, is also the author of multiple peer-reviewed works on organ harvesting, such as this one published in the BMJ and this one in BMC Medical Ethics.
 * The director of Latin American Programs at the foundation, Carlos Ponce, is likewise a highly respected individual in the area of Latin American human rights work and has had significant experience at Freedom House before joining VoCom.
 * The Poland Studies fellows feel like a mixed bag. Chelsea Michta seems to be an expert on the Warsaw Uprising and memory politics following the fall of communism, and her thesis seems to be related to the topic area. Monika Brzozowska-Pasieka being in Poland Studies feels a bit odd; she appears to have most noted for suing Holocaust scholars for not being sufficiently pro-Pole. Anna Draniewicz seems to be an expert on the policial history of Polish-language films. Jakub Tyszkiewicz seems like an expert on Polish history, while Włodzimierz Batóg seems to be someone whose research on the Polish diaspora in the United States is respected. Maria Juczewska doesn't seem to have strong qualifications and her graduate research appears to largely have been biography writing on a notable Pole.
 * Many of the foundation's fellows are strong experts in their respective fields. This is particularly true for its China Studies programs, which are doing some of the most intensive research into the history of human rights abuses under the Chinese Communist Party's rule. That being said, there are definitely some odder characters in Poland studies and the methodology for its giant death toll figure is not rigorous.
 * Because of the above, I believe that there are some areas of the institution that are reliable and probably better than most WP:NEWSORG-level sources, while others are clearly unreliable. This leads me towards a classification that additional considerations apply, with the particular context of the source (the author, format, and relation of the content to the author's area of expertise) being something to consider when using it. — Mhawk10 (talk) 07:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Completely agree with your point about MKUCR. Regarding your points, I feel that if the academics are reliable experts and have published quality work in peer-reviewed journals, one could cite the work in the journals. Others above have mentioned concerns about the editorial process of the organization, and if this holds I don't see a strong argument for finding it reliable as there is no guarantee except trust in the authors that the work they publish is reliable, I think. Note this is a strong opinion weakly held, though. Santacruz  &#8258;  Please ping me!  09:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable The site doesn't do any original research, it merely publishes information from other sources, without attribution. An obvious problem is that it presents a high estimate of victims of communism as fact. TFD (talk) 06:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Unreliable lack of reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:21, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Arnold J. Toynbee
Is Arnold J. Toynbee reliable regarding the Greco-Turkish War and the Turkish War of Independence? I would've liked to add some of his stuff regarding Hellenic army atrocities during the war, but some user claimed that he wasn't because his "pro-Turkish stance". Beshogur (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend you notify relevant WPs of this discussion as well as active editors in the pages you wish to use him in, . Most editors that have this page watchlisted/happen to come across this discussion are not familiar with the context necessary to assess him as a source. Santacruz  &#8258;  Please ping me!  00:16, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer modern scholarship over someone who died in 1975, regardless of potential bias issues. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * While I would say that there is much fine work in history from before 1975, our article on Toynbee indicates that he is no longer a respected source, except in classical history, so I would be hesitant in citing to him. John M Baker (talk) 06:05, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd say it would depend on what "stuff" exactly, for that era and for the Middle East his views would still carry weight. Selfstudier (talk) 10:54, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

GEOnet Names Server (GNS)

 * Unarchived from archive 359 for further feedback/proper close

Which of the following best describes the reliability of the US's GEOnet Names Server (GNS) database?

FOARP (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 1: The source is recognized as being generally reliable.
 * Option 2: There is no consensus or additional considerations apply.
 * Option 3: The source is recognized as being generally unreliable in most cases, though it can be used under certain circumstances.
 * Option 4: The source is recognized as being not reliable at all and should be deprecated.
 * Option 5: The source is:
 * Generally reliable for Locations/Coordinates
 * Generally unreliable for Feature Classes, particularly "Populated place"
 * Does not satisfy the "Legal recognition" requirement of WP:GEOLAND.
 * Option 6: Same as Option 5 but including Toponyms in GNS as generally reliable.

Background (GNS)
Ten or more years ago, thousands of geographic articles have been created on English Wikipedia by importing database entries directly from the GEOnet Names Server (GNS). For example, a search for the phrases "by opening the Advanced Search box, entering" and "can be found at GEOnet Names Server" (i.e., instructions telling the reader to search the GEONet Names server for the ID code for the location the article is about) on Wikipedia returns more than 43,000 results. These largely refer to populated locations. Some of these articles have been expanded using other sources into full articles, others remain as stubs for which GNS is the only source. GNS's location classifications are assembled using substantially the same methodology as the GNIS database which was the subject of a previous RFC. Its classification of locations, especially as "populated places", therefore suffers from the same issues. Additionally, a 2008 study of 26,500 South Korea toponyms uncovered around 200 Japanese names (see page 199 here), apparently as a result of using 1946 US military maps as a source (the Japanese-pronunciation names had apparently never been used on Japanese maps going back to 1910, so the US military - likely due to use of Japanese assistants in compiling their maps - are ultimately the source of these errors). The same study also noted that "There are many spelling errors and simple mis-understanding of the place names with similar characters" (see page 198), and also uncovered some very random English toponyms still present on the database but never commonly used. Therefore, at the very least, it appears that place names on GNS should ideally be confirmed in other sources, as it may for some countries have imported systematic errors from the old military maps that GNS is typically based on.

I have therefore adapted the previous GNIS survey (GNIS is the corresponding US-operated database for locations within the USA) to exclude toponyms from Option 5, but also added an Option 6 including GNS toponyms as generally reliable. FOARP (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Survey (GNS)

 * Option 5 as Nom (EDIT: and also Option 2 for locations / coordinates per Aquillion). The classification of locations in GNS is essentially the same as that of GNIS and as such the same analysis applies - it is inaccurate as to whether a place was ever populated and cannot anyway be used to justify claiming that a place has legal recognition, not least because it does not come from an authority in the country concerned because this is a US database for places outside the US. As for topnyms, the reported error-rate (~1% Japanese names in South Korea, and a unknown number of additional erroneous names from misunderstandings etc.) is hard to balance so I'd prefer just to leave it as an open question. At the very least, with toponyms, people should be aware that these were compiled mainly from old US military maps and in some cases systematic errors may have been introduced. As far as I've ever been able to determine the location data on GNS is accurate (EDIT: but is a primary source). FOARP (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to say the same thing I said last time for GNIS: "generally reliable for information about place names of any kind, but cannot be used to determine notability for stand-alone articles in any way, even if it calls a place a "populated place"" In determining if a place is a valid topic for a stand-alone article, we need reliable, sufficiently indepth, sources.  The fact that a place exists is not sufficiently indepth.  We can generally trust the GNS (as much as any source), since it is a simple database of places and names, but we should not be creating articles that cannot be expanded if sufficiently in-depth sources don't exist.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 19:36, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 5 disagree with the above comment because if a populated place the size of a village or larger can be verified through reliable sources such as an official census then it should be included to fulfill Wikipedia's role as a gazeteer regardless of the lack of indepth sources. This is particularly the case for villages in countries with limited internet coverage, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, from where do you get the information necessary to write a sufficient article about said place? -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 13:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Jayron32 - I think it is important to remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and the ultimate goal here is to write encyclopaedia articles. There has never, ever been a consensus that Wikipedia should suddenly become something other than an encyclopaedia when covering geographical features. At most, it has been described as having "features of ... gazetteers" in WP:5P, which is an essay-level document, a phrase that was added as a un-discussed BOLD edit in 2008 and has never been substantially endorsed since as far as I've been able to determine. WP:GEOLAND refers to this section of WP:5P, but this is odd because WP:5P is supposed to be summary of the guidelines/policies, not a basis for them, meaning that this is essentially a circular reference. Having "features...of gazetteers" is anyway met by including the typical infobox information alongside encyclopaedic content - it does not require that we turn WP into a gazetteer. Anyway this is me getting a long way OT so I'll stop here. FOARP (talk) 14:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Having features of a gazetteer can mean "naming a populated place on a list of populated places". I've never said, and I will never say, that information about such populated places needs to be stricken from Wikipedia entirely, but having a stand-alone article should be reserved for topics that can support a stand-alone article.  If all we can say about a place is that it exists and nothing more, it is sufficient to mention that it exists elsewhere.  We don't have to give it a stand-alone article.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 14:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree 100%. FOARP (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, and one thing I would also add to my response to Atlantic306 is that census's are not generally reliable sources for whether a place is legally recognised unless they plainly state that a place is legally recognised by, e.g., stating that a location is a kind of legally-recognised location (e.g., that it is a type of location with e.g., a town council or mayor). We have had far too many situations in which someone has assumed that every location mentioned in a census was a legally recognised populated place when they were instead e.g., farms, pumps, factories, neighbourhoods, railway sidings, marshalling yards, railway stations, bridges, fords, wells, springs etc. etc. etc.. And even with that evidence, the goal is still to write an encyclopaedia article, because WP is an encyclopaedia and does not suddenly become something else when the topic is geography. FOARP (talk) 08:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately you ignored the part of my comment that referred to the size and designation of the place as being at least a village. From most government census' there are at least two paragraphs of information available regarding population, education, occupations, number of families, local government and so on. Also, I believe you are out of step with current practice that is to include stubs on villages and towns regardless of depth of coverage providing they are reliably verified however disappointing that might be for deletionists, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:40, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've just read your essay Wikipedia is not a gazetteer which is interesting but I don't think that all census' should be dismissed because of some poor ones, rather a case by case evaluation would be more accurate. Also i've seen senior editors and admin making the case that Wikipedia does have a role as a gazeteer, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:51, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Atlantic306 - I agree that gazetteers and census data should always be evaluated case-by-case. There's a continuum in both cases from single-line statistical data about a location to 1-200 word or more descriptive coverage, and there's things they're good for and things they're not good for. Most GNIS and GNS data is from the lower end of that spectrum. I think a very basic but passing article can be written based on data from the high end of that spectrum, but that many, many articles on Wikipedia at present are from the lower end of that spectrum. The reason they are kept is because of the idea that Wikipedia is a gazetteer and that any geographic location should get an article, which is something no consensus on here has ever determined. Even mentioning gazetteers in 5P was simply the result of an undiscussed BOLD edit. Anyway, I'm going OT again so I'll stop. FOARP (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Option 2 for locations / coordinates, Option 5 otherwise. The most important thing to recognize about this source is that it is essentially always going to be WP:PRIMARY, which is the reason it can't be used for anything that would imply interpretation or analysis. This is also something that needs to be taken into consideration even when using it for locations or coordinates; they can't be used in any way that would carry unsourced implications or which involve interpretation or analysis. It can be used to fill out simple uncontroversial coordinates on articles, of course, but there needs to be caution about using it for anything else. --Aquillion (talk) 10:06, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * option 6 as its primary purpose is to record toponyms. That said, my experience with it has not been positive. It seems to have a habit of copying from whatever maps might be available, and for instance when we were going through Somali villages, we found numerous cases where there was nothing at all at the spot given. Any use of GNS has to be checked against other sources. Mangoe (talk) 02:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Mangoe - Probably imported from some 1960's or earlier US military map. At least with GNIS the locals are more likely to try to get obviously-wrong information fixed, but who's going to complain in Somalia? FOARP (talk) 09:02, 11 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I am absolutely with Jayron32 here. Geonet should never be a sole source for a standalone article. We recently had a disaster with Iranian localities imported from GeoNet which had in the end to be mass-deleted since there were serious doubts as whether those exist or ever existed. Geonet can be used for coordinate (and to be honest it is not better than Google Maprs, and certainly not better than the OpenStreet Map - yes, sure I am aware of how the OpenStreetMap is organized and that it is not a reliable source by any means). However, there is no way it can justify creation of a standalone article.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 5, and this is a demonstration of exactly why we should not have permastubs on "populated places" when there is not a substantial quantity of reliable, independent reference material about them. The "gazetteer" function could be fulfilled by lists when all we have is some basic database information about a place (coordinates, population, etc.), such as "List of populated places in Example County, Somestate" in the US, or by similar administrative divisions elsewhere. We can say "Yes, we should include gazetteer information about such places when we have it", and do so, without these masses of permastub pseudo-"articles". Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that nowhere presently on Wikipedia is it said that Wikipedia necessarily has a gazetteer function, nor has there ever been any consensus of any kind expressed anywhere that I've been able to identify saying it should. The term "gazetteer" was added to WP:5P in an undiscussed bold edit in 2008 and has recently been replaced with "reference works" after a talk-page discussion there. We include elements of reference works (a term that includes gazetteers) within encyclopaedic articles, and this includes lists of smaller communities within a larger community, but we are an encyclopaedia and do not simply become something else when writing about geographical locations. Even WP:GEOLAND#1 doesn't necessarily require that bare gazetteer listings be included as articles - instead it is assumed that a legally-recognised populated place will have enough sourcing for an encyclopaedic article to be written about it. FOARP (talk) 09:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, certainly, only the notable ones should be standalone articles, and we've always made a mistake trying to make the non-notable ones into individual permastubs. But I don't have any objection to a list for a particular administrative region, with the non-notable ones being simple list entries&mdash;population, coordinates, area, whatever data it is that is always provided in a census or the like. But I think people confuse "We should include this information" and "We should include this information in a standalone article." This is a case where I agree with the first, but not the second. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. The problem is that there are a lot of users trying to inflate their created article count, so the articles get created anyway, and then it is vertually impossible to redirect them to lists, every discussion would at best end up as no consensus.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, people thought the fiction cleanup was hopeless for ever getting done, too&mdash;until it happened. So don't give up just yet. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Option 5 with the caveat that GNS sometimes was pulled from old, problematic sources, such as old war maps made by people not familiar with the area. GNS should be ignored if there are no sources from the area in question actually verifying that the places exist. Hog Farm Talk 17:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 5 per all above, and emphasizing that it is a primary source, and should never be the sole source for a stand-alone page. Levivich 19:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 2 whether it is RS depends on context; or option 5. So it seems official, and reflecting maps... but the map is not the territory (nor notability) and perhaps the United States spelling is Connaught while Britain spells it Connacht.  Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:30, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 5 - Wikipedia is not a gazetteer. Databases in general are primary sources which can be used as sources for population, coordinates, etc, but significant coverage in secondary sources is needed in order to establish notability. –dlthewave ☎ 20:25, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 5 Would be happy to see any mass-produced articles sourced solely to GNS deleted. Reywas92Talk 15:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 3, just a bad database with frequently incorrect coordinates. Users will point to it in disputes as if it was the last word. I wouldn't even mind if Option 4 was the consensus. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Option 6, though I agree with Hog Farm's caveat. Like all tertiary sources (which it is; someone called it a primary source, but it doesn't actually qualify as one), it is only as reliable as its own source material.  I can't go with option 3, since "has some mistakes in it" doesn't translate to "generally unreliable".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Waffling non-vote Years ago I used this database in conjunction with creating entries for all habitable locations in Ethiopia, so I am very familiar with this source. What I found was that this database was full of duplicates, had mingled settlements, mountains, & other geographical locations -- such as isolated churches. (And I suspect its entries are drawn from sources of different levels of reliability.) Cross-checking its entries against other databases (such as the Ethiopian national census, which did list towns & villages it recognized), I often found the names it provided did not match with other sources. In short, I had to use it with care.That said, I did find it a help at times verifying these smaller settlements, & sometimes providing a clue to identify a community known by several dissimilar names, but I wouldn't trust its information without independent corroboration. Unfortunately, for some parts of the world GEOnet will be the best source we can expect. -- llywrch (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * (good humored 'dig') Oh, so it was you who created all that stuff I'm having to clean up! Platonk (talk) 21:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Option 6, generally reliable for these purposes. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 16:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion (GNS)
Notified: centralized discussion]]. FOARP (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Is Peakbagger.com a reliable source?
Is Peakbagger.com a reliable source? FOARP (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Source: Peakbagger.com (description page here, terms of service here)
 * 2) Article: Crypt Peak (as a test-case, and maybe 5,104 other EN Wikipedia articles)
 * 3) Content: Primarily the prominence and elevation of various mountain peaks, also appears to be relied on in some articles to substantiate a WP:GNG pass.

Background (Peakbagger.com)
Peakbagger.com is used on a large number of articles regarding various peaks, primarily to substantiate the height of them above sea level and their prominence relative to the surrounding terrain, but also in at least some cases it appears to be only source that actually talks about the feature specifically (other sources being about the climate or geology of the area in which the peak is, but not about the peak specifically).

I have discussed the reliability of this source with Ron Clausen, who has created a number of articles using this source, in a discussion that can be seen here, and we both agree that it would be useful to get some feedback from the RSN community about it's reliability. FOARP (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Survey (Peakbagger.com)

 * Unreliable under any circumstance - Based on the contact page appears to be a self-published hobby project, a lot of the data is apparently simply copied from GNIS with all that entails but other data has no clear origin and may have been submitted by individual climbers or comes from the author themselves. The terms of service page tells us that "Information uploaded to Peakbagger.com by site users, including ascent information, trip reports, provisional peaks, GPS tracks, and photographs, all becomes part of the master integrated Peakbagger.com database" meaning that the database is to an extent crowd-sourced. It also literally tells us that "The master Peakbagger.com database of peaks and associated content has thousands of errors in it, and text content, trip reports, and GPS tracks from the site's administrators and users are subjective and not necessarily authoritative " (my emphasis) - it straight up tells us that it is not a reliable source. Even if it were a reliable source for the height/prominence data, simple statistical entries in a database don't amount to significant coverage of the subject such as is needed to pass WP:GNG, and it would amount to a WP:PRIMARY source. For GNIS or other gazetteer data, the original gazetteer should be referred to directly.
 * I'd like to highlight that I think that most of Ron's work is OK and I like these articles about peaks, this is just about the sourcing in a lot of articles about peaks (not just his). FOARP (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Instead of making assumptions by using the word "appears", why don't you contact the webmaster to get the facts on the sources. Assumptions = unreliable, which is worse than the argument you are making. Interesting that you now encourage using GNIS data, but on my talk page you didn't.Ron Clausen (talk) 22:16, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We have the website managers own words telling us not to use it, seems enough, no? And it's worth remembering that once a source is challenged the burden is on those who want to use the source to prove it's reliable, not the other way round - if you want to email them, please feel free to do so. As for GNIS, we have a consensus on here that certain pieces of data on it are unreliable (i.e., the feature classes) and it should anyway not be relied on to support a WP:GNG pass because it is not significant coverage. FOARP (talk) 08:17, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Where does the webmaster state not to use it (whatever you mean by "it")? Ron Clausen (talk) 04:35, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable By their own statements, this is a crowd-sourced, unchecked, and admits to having numerous unfixed factual errors. This source, as useful in general as it might be to hikers, is not an appropriate source for any information at Wikipedia.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 14:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Peakbagger.com is frequently referenced by reliable books and magazines: The data which I use from the site is not crowdsourced. Ron Clausen (talk) 00:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable for factual information - Appears to be the classic hobbyist/WP:SPS website with no sourcing on the few pages I randomly sampled and no indicia of a reliability-establishing editorial policy. That, alone, seems sufficient for "unreliable" even if we interpret the "thousands of errors" statement as a generic "we take no responsibility if you hurt yourself because of our info" disclaimer. Seems to also contain trip reports, which might theoretically be used per WP:RSOPINION/WP:SELFSOURCE with the usual disclaimers, but I'm not familiar enough with either the site or the general topic to say whether that's a realistic prospect. -Ljleppan (talk) 15:04, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Peakbagger.com is frequently referenced by reliable books and magazines: But thanks for declaring it unreliable when you state that you are not familiar with this subject. Ron Clausen (talk) 00:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Reliable when framed as "according to" etc.. it often receives notice in other reliable sources as being a significant source:
 * "Greg Slayden, founder of www.peakbagger.com, a national climbing registry where baggers can record their conquests." The Mercury News
 * "A website called Peakbagger.com, a major arbiter for the country’s “high pointers,” made the change to its database. As far as Peakbagger was concerned, Jackie Jones Mountain was now supreme."The Daily Beast
 * "He had read about Baker Mountain on peakbagger.com, a storehouse for people looking to summit prominent mountains. " The New York Times
 * "Before the advent of peakbagger.com, climber.org, and summitpost.com, climbers sought information about routes up peaks in guidebooks, in newsletter reports, and by word of mouth, still all good sources. "Sierra Club
 * "If you want more information and maps of these peaks, a good source is peakbagger.com." Elko Daily News
 * Peakbgger.com is frequently referenced by reliable books and magazines:
 * -- Green  C  17:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * These point to it being a useful source for Peak-bagging hobbyists, in a similar way to how Wookieepedia is a useful source for Star Wars fans and Memory Alpha is a useful source for Trekkers. It does not make it a reliable source for an encyclopaedia article. FOARP (talk) 08:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You failed to take note of the last bullet: Peakbagger.com is frequently referenced by reliable books and magazines: which is a Google search result showing all the reliable published books that reference Peakbagger.Ron Clausen (talk) 10:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just because a book appears in a Google Books search does not mean it's a reliable source. For example the very first search result for me is "Stargate SG1 Compendium" published by PediaPress. If you actually search for "peakbagger.com" with quotation marks, you'll see a significantly reduced amount of hits, less than 50 based on my quick count. Some of the hits, e.g. The Mountain Encyclopedia, appear to simply list it in a large list of general websites related to the topic, rather than using it as a source or even making any explicit claim about its reliability. Others, such as 'The Making of Modern Baseball, Sports Nation: Contemporary American Professional Organizations, Indiana Courthouses - Southeast Edition and Planning Support Systems and Smart Cities are in so wildly different domains that they really can't be used to establish reliability here. To establish that multiple highly reliable sources view peakbagger.com as a reliable source, you'd need to provide clear examples rather than just linking to a Google Books search. -Ljleppan (talk) 10:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable, at best its a group blog edited by Greg Slayden but you have to squint really really hard to see that... Its a high quality hobbyist site but even the best of those are generally not WP:RS, especially for obscure hobbies like peak bagging. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Reliable There are no errors in the data for peaks. The peak data comes from USGS data. Anything related to user contributed climbing information is not used on Wikipedia.Ron Clausen (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * How did you determine that the peak data comes from USGS? I can't find any indication of that on the website. Does that source also extend to peaks not in US? If the data comes from USGS, why not cite the original source of the data? -Ljleppan (talk) 22:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The webmaster states "I added peaks by hand, or from large public-domain databases like the GNIS and BGN gazetters." GNIS and BGN = USGS. https://www.peakbagger.com/Contact.aspx As for why? Convenience, and parameters such as Prominence and Isolation data are not provided directly by from USGS, but derivations thereof. Prominence and Isolation are not something found in "published" sources, but can be obtained at these websites. I don't use Peakbagger or LOJ for peaks outside the US.Ron Clausen (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That does say "by hand", though... not particularly reliable if you ask me. Surely there are reputable sources that would compile this information. A. C. Santacruz  &#8258;  Talk  00:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Again with the assumptions. Please tell us your reputable sources that compile Prominence and Isolation. Ron Clausen (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The GNIS database is public domain and freely accessible. It also isn’t clear which data on Peakbagger comes from there and which doesn’t and instead comes from another source. And just to emphasise this: the website itself says not to trust it. If data cannot be reliably sourced, the answer is not to use an unreliable source, the answer is just not to include that data at all. FOARP (talk) 08:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't say "not to trust it". It says there are thousands of errors in the site, a site which he says has millions of data points. Every data base and reliable source is going to have errors. If Peakbagger's elevation value for a given peak matches what's on the USGS topographic map, we know where the information came from.Ron Clausen (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry Ron, but it literally says right in the terms of service "The master Peakbagger.com database of peaks and associated content has thousands of errors in it ... there is no guarantee of accuracy". That's them right there telling you not to rely on their data, for the very good reason that it is not an authoritative source and is transcribed from other sources and/or provided by users (and it is not clear which is which). Now you're saying "don't worry, it's only thousands of error amongst millions", but how many thousands? This is a very useful source for hobbyists, but that doesn't make it a reliable source for an encyclopaedia article. As for it matching USGS data, if that's so then why don't you just refer to the USGS data directly? And if you can't access the USGS data then how do you know this?
 * Let me take the opportunity again to say that I like your articles on peaks, especially the photos, and I think they're a net value-add for Wiki. I just think this specific source (and LoJ, though that's much-less-used) shouldn't be used. FOARP (talk) 10:13, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you sliding down a slippery slope if you expect "guarantees of accuracy" from all reliable sources. Please provide a link to that Wikipedia policy requiring sources to guarantee their accuracy, and also a list of sources that you are aware of which do meet such a requirement. I can't recall ever seeing a publication which did. Ron Clausen (talk) 10:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not requiring that they give such a guarantee, I'm requiring that they don't literally tell us that they can't give such a guarantee because of all the errors they have. FOARP (talk) 10:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a link to the Wikipedia policy that requires that? Ron Clausen (talk) 11:08, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:RS and WP:SOURCE: (emph. added). Are you claiming that a source that literally states it contains thousands of mistakes has a "reputation for accuracy"? -11:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)Ljleppan (talk)
 * Thousands of errors in millions of data points. We don't know exact numbers, but for the sake of simplicity let's say 1000 errors for every one million data points. That works out to 99.9 percent accuracy. In my book, that's pretty accurate, reliable information. And that site is aware of the errors and fixes them (according Peakbagger, and my personal dealings with them when I pointed out an error. Ron Clausen (talk) 11:45, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * So what you're telling us is that you've found errors on there (more than once?) and they corrected them when you told them. Which sounds an awful lot like user-generated content. "Thousands" can mean many more than 1,000, they clearly don't know how many errors there, just that there are a lot. FOARP (talk) 12:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You're missing the context. Thousands of errors in millions of data points. He doesn't say tens of thousands of errors, nor tens of millions of data points, so the numbers must be between two and ten. Let's take the worst case example that favors your side: 9,999 errors in two million data points. That's 99.5 percent accuracy. On the other hand the math for the flip side has 2,000 errors in nine million data points. That's 99.98 percent accuracy. Ron Clausen (talk) 21:34, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, over the last five years I found an error there. Coordinates for a peak were wrong, only because USGS had within the past year corrected a USGS error, and Peakbagger originally used that erroneous data from USGS, and the change was not caught by Peakbagger. All websites that I checked were still using the erroneous USGS data. Case in point: Pectols Pyramid. A quick search now and I found mapcarta.com and topozone.com and peakvisor.com all still using the erroneous location. Ron Clausen (talk) 12:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand: if USGS has more accurate data, and updates it more frequently, why aren't you just referring to USGS directly? Moreover you only know about this error because USGS is there as a reliable source. It seems that whilst the maths needed to calculate prominence/isolation are simple, determining what data to use is non-trivial and we shouldn't be relying on Peakbagger.com for it. FOARP (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Who claims USGS has more accurate data and updates it more frequently? If you don't understand, it's because you haven't paid attention. As I stated in my Talk page to you: "I have found plenty of stuff in "published" material that is flat out incorrect, and would not use. And stuff can be found in communities such as Summitpost that is excellent and correct (but I don't use). So the balancing act is to be accurate, which means using best data where it's found. GNIS is good for coordinates, but terrible at elevations, so that's where Peakbagger comes in." Ron Clausen (talk) 21:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Unreliable. It's probably fine for an external link but I don't see how we can use a source that is at least partially user-generated, otherwise curated by someone whose subject matter expertise has not been established (WP:SPS), and that by its own admission contains errors. I sympathize with Ron Clausen's position that 99.9 is pretty great accuracy, but the difference between this source and a reliable source is that we have no way to verify the reliability--we have no idea which data is accurate. I do have a question about "Prominence" and "Isolation"; I'm unfamiliar with those terms and their importance. Ron notes above that these are "derived", are they derived from the USGS data, and is this a mechanical calculation, or is something more involved? Mackensen (talk) 12:22, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Topographic isolation and Topographic prominence simple calculation, based on USGS data. Ron Clausen (talk) 12:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I would beg to differ about prominence: one has to identify the key col to compute the prominence. That is a calculation, but involving a graph of elevations. For a description of the algorithm, see . I would not characterize it as simple. Wikipedia editors cannot perform prominence calculations under WP:CALC: it would be a violation of WP:NOR. We have to rely on Peakbagger for prominence and isolation, or use an alternative site. There are not that many of them. — hike395 (talk) 19:55, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Reliable as the person is an expert in his field so can be used in Wikipedia as per the guidelines on SPS and blogs. No significant problems with using this source have been put forward and carrying out simple calculations is fine for such an expert on the subject, in my view Atlantic306 (talk) 01:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you expand a bit on how you determined that the editor behind the website is "", given that others below seem to have reached different conclusions? -Ljleppan (talk) 09:02, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Reliable for quantitative information: elevation, coordinates, location, prominence, isolation. Not reliable for ascent and travel accounts. To my mind, Peakbagger is the authoritative source for some of the quantitative information about mountains, and a secondary reliable source for other quantitative data. That doesn't mean there aren't errors on Peakbagger, but all "reliable sources" have errors and discrepancies.Smallchief (talk)
 * Reliable per Smallchief and others for hard data such as prominence, isolation, elevation, coordinates and location. Likely to be more accurate and up to date than some official sources e.g. Ordnance Survey. Bermicourt (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Reliable While FOARP, Ljleppan, Jayron32, and A. C. Santacruz are correct that Peakbagger does not pass WP:RS under the usual criteria for self-published primary sources, there is another way to establish reliability: via usage by other sources. In the small field of publications on orometry (e.g., elevation, topographic prominence and topographic isolation), the following papers treat the data in Peakbagger as "gold standard" data to incorporate or compare against:
 * Aside from WP:UBO, the 10+ years of WP usage of quantitative data from Peakbagger has uncovered no systematic biases or serious accuracy problems. — hike395 (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for these references, I only had time to check the first this morning, but made some quick observations. Notably, the study clearly acknowledges that peakbagger.com is not a provider of high-quality data: "" It later notes that "" and "" I'll check the other references later today. -Ljleppan (talk) 08:01, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Continuing to check the references, Kimse and de Ferranti refer to peakbagger.com in a few ways. First, on page 790, they simply state that it exists as part of their description of previous works. Second, on pages 792-793, they refer to it for peak height data. They go on to note that the peakbagger.com height data seems to disagree with their other data in some cases, discussing in detail how their analysis/computation is affected by this disagreement. They present no argument why they hold the peakbagger.com data to be more accurate, only making a vague gesture at "". The third mention on page 798 is, in my view, the most notable a it suggest a conflict of interest between the authors and peakbagger.com, as the authors describe their own contributions to the database. Tangentially related, I found the following sentence on page 791 interesting: " This appears to be a tacit admission that they are not confident in their underlying data for the whole globe. It's not completely clear to me from the paper whether this statement applies only to "" or to a wider area.
 * The third reference (Kelso & Patterson, 2010) simply states they use peak name and height data from peakbagger.com in a single sentence. I believe it's notable that despite stating their website is intended for a mountain cartographer audience, they do not use any other data from peakbagger.com.
 * The fourth reference (Wiens et al., 2019) similarly only uses peak height data from the peakbagger.com.
 * In total, the references appear to contain one that acknowledges that peakbagger.com is not of very high quality, and three that only employ peak heights. Of the three height-only papers, Kimse and de Ferranti have a potential conflict of interest and also acknowledges that the peakbagger.com data disagrees with other data available to them. Based on this analysis, I don't think the references support a WP:UBO argument outside of peak heights, and even for peak heights it seems somewhat iffy. -Ljleppan (talk) 10:53, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Continuing to check the references, Kimse and de Ferranti refer to peakbagger.com in a few ways. First, on page 790, they simply state that it exists as part of their description of previous works. Second, on pages 792-793, they refer to it for peak height data. They go on to note that the peakbagger.com height data seems to disagree with their other data in some cases, discussing in detail how their analysis/computation is affected by this disagreement. They present no argument why they hold the peakbagger.com data to be more accurate, only making a vague gesture at "". The third mention on page 798 is, in my view, the most notable a it suggest a conflict of interest between the authors and peakbagger.com, as the authors describe their own contributions to the database. Tangentially related, I found the following sentence on page 791 interesting: " This appears to be a tacit admission that they are not confident in their underlying data for the whole globe. It's not completely clear to me from the paper whether this statement applies only to "" or to a wider area.
 * The third reference (Kelso & Patterson, 2010) simply states they use peak name and height data from peakbagger.com in a single sentence. I believe it's notable that despite stating their website is intended for a mountain cartographer audience, they do not use any other data from peakbagger.com.
 * The fourth reference (Wiens et al., 2019) similarly only uses peak height data from the peakbagger.com.
 * In total, the references appear to contain one that acknowledges that peakbagger.com is not of very high quality, and three that only employ peak heights. Of the three height-only papers, Kimse and de Ferranti have a potential conflict of interest and also acknowledges that the peakbagger.com data disagrees with other data available to them. Based on this analysis, I don't think the references support a WP:UBO argument outside of peak heights, and even for peak heights it seems somewhat iffy. -Ljleppan (talk) 10:53, 24 November 2021 (UTC)


 * If the four articles cited above use Peakbagger data to one extent on another, then that is a recognition that the data is either reliable, the best available, or not available elsewhere, isn't it? If, in the four cited articles, only some Peakbagger data is used and some is not that is not an indication that the unused Peakbagger data is bad. It just means that Peakbagger data about, for example, prominence wasn't relevant to the author of the article.


 * Peakbagger is cited as a source on Wikipedia thousands of times. Let's look at just one article: List of the most prominent summits of the United States. Peakbagger is the source most cited for information about all 200 mountains on the list. Dozens of other articles about mountains use Peakbagger as their main source. Are we going to delete these articles not because they are inaccurate but because we have declared that Peakbagger -- often the only source or the best source -- is not up to Wikipedia's bureaucratic standards? Instead see: "Wikipedia has guidelines and policies -- not firm rules." To delete articles from Wikipedia sourced from Peakbagger would be counter-productive and destructive -- and would not make the encyclopedia one whit more authoritative. Our task is to compile and improve the encyclopedia not impose a rule that would do the opposite.Smallchief (talk) 13:32, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The reliability of peakbagger.com has been questioned, and the comment I replied to acknowledged that it does not pass the usual criteria for self-published primary sources. It was then suggested that it might be considered reliable through another criteria, and evidence for this position was presented. I argue above why I believe this evidence fails to establish reliability for all factual information, and at best establishes reliability for a minor subset of the data on the website. If you believe I have misread or mischaracterized the proposed evidence above, please let me know how and I'll happily reconsider my position and correct any mistakes I might have made. The fact that the source is currently referenced a lot in Wikipedia is immaterial for this discussion. -Ljleppan (talk) 13:53, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * So, what is your remedy? Shall we delete all the articles that use Peakbagger as a principal source? This is not just an intellectual discussion. A problem should be in search of a solution.Smallchief (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This is neither the time nor the place for those hypothetical discussions, the need for which is dependent on both the result of this still ongoing discussion and the content of each individual article. -Ljleppan (talk) 14:33, 24 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I believe your summary does not accurately reflect Peakbagger nor my UBO argument:
 * Kirmse explains the details of his prominence analysis here. Kirmse clearly uses Peakbagger as a ground truth source of data to compare his output to. It is the best alternative.
 * Kirmse uses DEM data which is contaminated with trees (DEMs find the height of object at scan time, rather than true ground level, a well-known problem in remote sensing). This causes Kirmse's height data to be less reliable than Peakbagger. Again, see Kirmse's explanation here.
 * Quoting "many tested summits are missing from Peakbagger" is not a strike against Peakbagger. Because Peakbagger is curated, it cannot have as many summits as Kirme's system. The simple fact that Kirmse (a reliable source) used Peakbagger as gold-standard data should count in favor of Peakbagger.
 * I cannot find any guidance in WP:UBO that specifies that specific data (e.g., prominence) be used, as far as I can tell. It just asks us to analyze whether the source is used by other reliable sources.
 * I also cannot find any guidance about "conflict of interest" in WP:UBO. If Kirmse donated data back to Peakbagger, why is that a negative? Instead, wouldn't that show that Kirmse thought Peakbagger was a worthwhile source? If it were truly unreliable (e.g., like The Daily Mail), Kirmse would be less likely to give it data, not more. — hike395 (talk) 00:35, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link to Krimse's personal website/blog, I didn't see it linked from the peer-reviewed article. I'm afraid I'm still not too convinced by the way it's discussed on the page, see e.g. "". In general, looking at all the various sources, I'm getting the impression that its data tends to be fairly accurate for the areas highly frequented by climbing enthusiast, but less so for elsewhere. Such data quality uniformity issues would be expected for a hobbyist source, and are one of the main reasons why I'm extremely wary of using these kinds references: it's going to appear accurate based on the things people will naturally check, but that deduction is not necessarily extensible to all data, nor is it possible to know for certain where that "uncertainty horizon" lies in the data.
 * Regarding the specific data aspect, I do concede might be reading the "" part of WP:UBO rather closely (also, I'm not too familiar with how this has been interpreted historically), but I don't think my reading is unreasonable. I do find it notable that of the linked articles, the one that would have most expected to use e.g. the prominence data (the one providing a mapping service aimed at a mountain cartographer audience) does not do so. This might be simply resulting from the limited amount of prominence data available on the site prior to Krimse's contribution. Did the site contain prominence data in 2010s?
 * Regarding the conflict of interest, my point is that since the argument is about use by others], does Krimse count as an other? In my understanding, the underlying UBO argument is essentially "there are verifiable reliable independent sources that hold peakbagger.com as a reliable independent source". I'm not convinced Krimse is "independent". -[[User:Ljleppan|Ljleppan (talk) 07:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe some of the assumptions you're making are incorrect:
 * Wikipedia has been using Peakbagger as a source of prominence data at least since 2005, possibly before. See, and the corresponding archive link. It has been a stable and durable source.
 * The main editors of Peakbagger were Edward Earl (until 2015) and Greg Slayden (after). If you look at the history, Kirmse wanted to adapt their code to run at Google in 2014, and started to share his data back in 2015. Peakbagger had prominence data for at least 10 years before that.
 * It seems to me that you cannot have it both ways. If Kirmse was a major participant in Peakbagger, then it would pass WP:RSSELF due to Kirmse's domain expertise. Instead, by his own web page, he was only tangentially involved starting in 2014. Hence the need for a WP:UBO argument, which I believe still stands.
 * It's well-known that the published topographic data for mountains in the Global South tends to be imprecise. See, e.g., the uncertainty expressed at Cordillera Paine, which took a fair amount of investigation by WP editors. Or this discussion about the highest point in Indonesia. The accuracy of Peakbagger is limited by the accuracy and precision of the topographic data that they use. Claiming that they are a hobbyist site based on this is not warranted.
 * Thanks for being so thorough! — hike395 (talk) 15:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And thanks to you for being so patient, especially considering that I lack much of the background knowledge etc. that others more familiar with the domain possess. I've thought about this for a few days now and have essentially two points I'd like to bring up. First, I don't believe Wikipedia's historical use of peakbagger.com is of significance for this discussion. Second, regarding "", my position is essentially thus: Kirmse themself appears to be a reputable author, and if they were in editorial control over peakbagger.com, I'd be open to considering it an expert-produced WP:SPS. However, they are not in (sole) editorial control, and I'm not convinced the "editor-in-chief" fulfills the requirements in the same way as Kirmse does. At the same time, Kirmse is clearly affiliated with peakbagger.com. While this does not wholly invalidate their judgement w/r/t it's reliability, it does cause me concern regarding their impartiality in assessing the situation. Working in a rather niche field of academia myself, I'm sympathetic that this is made more difficult by the nicheness (is that a word?) of the topic: it's hard to make a very solid WP:UBO argument if the field of relevant "others" is very small. Its clear that you and others who are well-versed in the topic truly hold peakbagger.com to be a reputable site. But demonstrating that reputability is clearly an issue in this case. In general, given that the indicia of reliablity overall is so low, I'm still hesitant about any kind of blanket statement along the lines of "all factual data on peakbagger.com is reliable". On the other hand, I'm not sure what a suitable more limited statement would be. Frankly, I'm rather annoyed by the lack of citing sources on the site; if they attributed clearly where each peace of information came from, I would find this significantly easier. -Ljleppan (talk) 19:48, 27 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Reliable per Smallchief. That is to say, "for quantitative information: elevation, coordinates, location, prominence, isolation. Not reliable for ascent and travel accounts." The disclaimer for inaccuracy is very likely referring to ascent and travel accounts, and if not, it's a disclaimer highlighting the very very few errors in a very large dataset.  Any dataset is prone to having a small percentage of errors, that doesn't make it unreliable. Being made by one person does not make it unreliable, it appears to be an authoritative resource, and wikipedia should treat it as such... except for the travel accounts, which are user provided and not reliable any more than some web forum post somewhere would be (that is to say, possibly useful as a primary source if the user commenting has some claim to notability). Fieari (talk) 02:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I understand your position regarding the accuracy of statistics on this website. How do you see it's listings in terms of WP:GNG, does a listing on Peakbagger count as significant coverage in your view? FOARP (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's a reliable source in terms of data, but obviously the blogs/comments are not. So it counts towards general notability. But we could also, by consensus, agree notability for mountains and hills based on a set of criteria such as height, prominence, etc, and only those that fall outside of that would need to pass the GNG test. Bermicourt (talk) 17:28, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say that the relevant notability guideline is WP:GEOLAND, which states "Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist." Peakbagger can only reliably provide statistics and coordinates: nothing else. Therefore Peakbagger cannot be used to establish notability of mountains, ranges, etc. — hike395 (talk) 00:55, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree. Peakbagger does not establish notability (nor, in my opinion, does a single source ever establish notability). However, Peakbagger, as stated many times here, is a reliable source for elevation, prominence, and other statistical information.Smallchief (talk) 01:18, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Basically this. I have nothing to add, Hike395 said it right. Fieari (talk) 06:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Different kinds of data in Peakbagger
is saying that Peakbagger is not reliable, because the terms of service says so. But peakbagger has multiple kinds of information in it. It has subjective trip reports, and it has quantitative data about the prominence and isolation. AFAICT, the terms of service are warning users that the subjective trip reports are filled with errors: people who climb mountains should take care not to overly rely on other climbing reports, because climbing is a risky activity. But Wikipedia editors are not using peakbagger for the subjective trip reports (which are clearly unreliable).

The main question, I think, is whether the quantitative data is reliable and accurate. There are very few sources for mountain prominence and isolation. Members of WP:WikiProject Mountains have been using Peakbagger's prominence and isolation data for many years, and have not found serious systematic errors (unlike GNIS feature data, where I was aware of the errors back in 2010, but got shut down). That's not a guarantee of accuracy by the website, but an empirical validation.

I also think there are two different issues being mixed together here:
 * Should peakbagger be the basis of creating new articles, and used to check WP:GNG?
 * Should peakbagger be considered a reliable source of prominence and isolation?

For the first question, we've had serious problems in creating articles based on geographic databases (FOARP has been extremely helpful in a major cleanup involving thousands of articles based on incorrect data in GNIS). I would be skeptical about creating new articles purely based on Peakbagger + ListsOfJohn + GNIS.

I would suggest that the discussion here analyze the reliability of Peakbagger for prominence and isolation. Either:
 * Peakbagger is considered a reliable source of prominence and isolation, or
 * We have to consider removing many of the prominence and isolation data points from WP.

Given this restricted question of reliability about prominence and isolation, what do other editors think? — hike395 (talk) 19:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We are still fundamentally discussing a WP:SPS. Where does the data, for, say this page come from? What is the editorial policy that ensures it is correct? How about this page which states "this peak was submitted to the Peakbagger.com database by "? I've seen nothing in this discussion that would have made me reconsider my original assessment of unreliable for factual information. If the result is that that Wikipedia needs to re-reference a lot of stuff, that is unfortunate, but that amount of potential work is completely immaterial for the reliability question. -Ljleppan (talk) 20:12, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "this peak was submitted to the Peakbagger.com database by " was merely a suggestion/request by a user that the peak be added to the database, not that the user added the data. The webmaster is always the only one to add the data. The user generally wants the peak added to they can add it to their list of personal ascents.Ron Clausen (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ron is correct: there is an editorial process from turning a user-submitted "provisional" peak into a peak in the full database, see here.
 * My issue here is: checked how? Checked against USGS information? And if that's the case, again, why don't we refer to the USGS directly? I'm not sure prominence and isolation really are so trivial to calculate that we can safely leave this in the hands of what appears to be an amateur website: the maths involved are relatively simple, but the choice of input data to use does not appear to be. FOARP (talk) 09:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * USGS does not provide prominence or isolation, so we cannot refer to USGS. As I've said below, there's no governmental source for prominence or isolation anywhere.
 * You're right, the computation is not trivial. I've found a peer-reviewed paper about running the computation at scale, by Andrew Kirmse, previously a Distinguished Engineer at Google who managed Google Earth. The results from the paper are provided in a website. Kirmse provides more details about the computation here. That detailed web page is worth reading. A few things to note:
 * Kirmse refers back to both Peakbagger and ListsOfJohn as tests for his computation
 * Kirmse's computation matches Peakbagger within 5% error 90% of the time. Kirmse seems to attribute the errors to problems in his own data.
 * Kirmse based his algorithm on WinProm code by Edward Earl, published in Helman's book. Earl ran Peakbagger until 2015, when he died in a mountaineering accident. Peakbagger has the original (although less scalable) WinProm code. Because Earl came up with the prominence algorithm, I would not characterize Peakbagger as a "amateur website", but as a primary source for prominence and isolation data.
 * Kirme's data is innately less accurate than Peakbagger. Kirmse (like GNIS) bases his computation on digital elevation maps, which are less accurate than Peakbagger, which bases the computation on the best point elevations provided by governments. In mountains where there are high spatial gradients, DEMs are definitely inferior.
 * Here's my conclusion. Peakbagger is a self-published primary source. The editors of Peakbagger do not appear to pass the bar of published subject-matter experts. Kirmse's paper appears to be a reliable peer-reviewed publication by a subject-matter expert. Kirmse is a secondary source for Peakbagger.
 * I don't want to propose any major changes to 5,000+ mountain articles without having other mountain editors participate in the discussion. The reliability of Peakbagger has been called into question (see above). What is the best way to reliably source prominence and isolation data? — hike395 (talk) 15:40, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I entirely sympathise with not wanting to make changes to lots of articles. Indeed, I'm OK with leaving these articles generally as-is and filling them out slowly with information from e.g., newspapers to make them full notability passes. What I will say is we have a general problem with many thousands of GEO articles being written solely on not-very-reliable database data (primarily GNIS and GNS) and it is more important to make sure that we don't generate thousands more problematic articles and make the problem worse. FOARP (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It strikes me as a bizarre thought that once a prominence figure has been published in a newspaper (a reliable one, I hope) we can give it a full notability pass[es]. First, surely we are not discussing notability (are we?) but verifiability. Second, where do we suppose the newspaper reporter obtained their data? Is our increased reliance because we believe that if what they publish is wrong they may be criticised, sued or forced to a retraction? Thincat (talk) 12:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If your goal was to prevent non-notable articles being made from geographic databases (which I heartily agree with), we didn't need to have this discussion. WP:GNG says that notability should be established by secondary sources. Geographic databases are primary sources: there is no analysis, just data. WP:GEOLAND says that if only basic statistics about a natural feature are known (as in a database), then the subject is not notable. We should not start articles purely based on Peakbagger and/or ListsOfJohn and/or GNIS.
 * By determining that Peakbagger is not a reliable source, we have to either throw out prominences and isolation on 5,000+ articles, or figure out an alternative reliable source. It's frustrating that Kirmse's prominence data is more "reliable" (according to WP:RS), but less accurate than the curated data in Peakbagger (according to Kirmse himself). I realize that WP:IAR shouldn't apply to this large number of articles, but I believe deprecating Peakbagger will make Wikipedia worse. I predict other editors at WikiProject Mountains will agree with that. — hike395 (talk) 13:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * From where does Peakbagger get its information? -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 13:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell from Kirmse: Greg Slayden (the editor at Peakbagger) uses the WinProm program to determine the key col and nearest higher point based on a digital elevation map. He then uses USGS benchmark data (if available) or topo map data (if not) to compute the prominence, verifying that any benchmark corresponds to the named feature. Slayden does not appear to be a published subject-matter expert (by WP's definition). — hike395 (talk) 13:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, then his information is not reliable under WP:RS definitions. He is not an expert, his work is not checked by experts, and there's no review or editorial process for the information he posts.  The information from the website should not be used at Wikipedia, and should not have been used at all.  The "5000+ articles" issue is a problem caused by using an obviously unreliable source to begin with; if someone had been following the rules years ago those 5000+ articles would already be in compliance.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 13:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * hike395 - I agree with you that it should be possible to address the problem of the creation of large numbers of GEO articles based on dubious sourcing at AFD. This is, however, not my experience at AFD. AFD is always far too late (often by a decade+ given how many articles were created circa 2008) to actually address the problem of article-creation based on purely statistical data. The many thousands of GEO articles sourced purely to GNIS/GNS, and created at a rate of 2-3 a minute in article creation campaigns, being the most obvious example.
 * Nobody said that these 5,000 articles would have to edited at once. We already have so much more dubiously sourced information, in such a large quantity on Wikipedia, that those 5,000 articles will not be a priority. What we need to stop is adding any more dubiously-sourced information. Ultimately, we do not have to have such data - hobbyists (who are the ones that this data is of interest to) can always just refer to Peakbagger directly. We can instead have more encyclopaedic information about the topic (e.g., it's history).
 * As a final point, if Kirmse's calculations don't match Slayden's, that points to these calculations being non-trivial to do given that if Slayden is a subject-matter expert then so surely is Kirmse. (EDIT: also entirely second what says - the 5,000 articles thing is an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument) FOARP (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with above, especially the point about hobbyists.  Santacruz  &#8258;  Please tag me!  13:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Subsection questions
I am going to add subsection questions below. It would be helpful, I think if those 'in the know' answer them with cites or links if possible Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC) : Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Why does prominence matter?

 * Topographic prominence is an objective measure of the "peakiness" of a peak. Many mountains are massifs, with many subpeaks. Prominence is a measure of how far down you need to walk from a subpeak before you go back up to the next main peak. Subpeaks with low prominence (e.g., 100 ft are not considered significant peaks, and don't make it onto peak lists. See USGS link — hike395 (talk) 20:59, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Topographic prominence is related to how much climbing is required to reach a peak from a point that is higher, specifically from its line parent. In Colorado, 4352 meter Grays Peak has prominence of about 844 meters from its line parent Mount Lincoln. On the other hand, the only slightly lower 4349 meter Torreys Peak has a prominence of only about 171 meters from its line parent which is nearby Grays Peak. Buaidh  talk e-mail 23:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Who does prominence matter to?
Readers of mountain articles may wish to know prominence, in order to tell whether the peak is a true peak, or simply a bump on a larger mountain. — hike395 (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Since prominence is somewhat related to the difficulty of a climb, it often matters more than elevation itself to climbers and mountain nerds like myself. Buaidh  talk e-mail 00:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Are there national or international organizations, who deal with it?

 * I've been editing mountain articles for >18 years now, and I know of no governmental or international or standards bodies that compute either prominence or isolation. — hike395 (talk) 21:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Government agencies are not concerned with topographic prominence, although they provide the elevation and topographic data required to calculate topographic prominence. Most mountain climbing organizations rely on other sources (e.g, peakbagger.com and Wikipedia) to calculate topographic prominence for them. The Sierra Club and the Colorado Mountain Club have historically only been concerned with summit elevation, although topographic prominence has more recently become a concern. If a climber or organization finds a discrepancy with a calculated topographic prominence, hopefully they will let us know. Buaidh  talk e-mail 00:53, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Why does isolation matter?
you have added isolation data and lists to many articles, do you wish to answer this? — hike395 (talk) 21:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Topographic isolation is also known as radius of dominance, an apt description. Isolation is the minimum distance you would need to travel to reach a point of equal or greater elevation. In mountainous regions, isolation may be short for any but the highest summit. In relatively flat regions, the highest summit may have a very long isolation. Buaidh  talk e-mail 00:02, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Why is topographic isolation something an encyclopedia needs to cover? Not seeing the argument for this being important without dedicated coverage. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * An encyclopedia doesn't need to provide any statistical information about a mountain, but topographic elevation, prominence, and isolation are considered the three most significant measures of a summit.
 * Topographic isolation is discussed at the following:
 * Topographic isolation on Wikipedia
 * World Peaks with 1000 km of Isolation on peakbagger.com
 * 25 Most Isolated Peaks In The World on mountainjourney.com
 * Calculating the prominence and isolation of every mountain in the world at sagepub.com
 * Visualize Prominence and Isolation of Mountain Peaks at wolfram.com
 * Oregon's Most Prominent and Isolated Peaks at glassmountains.com
 * Topographic Prominence-Isolation Concepts at cohp.com
 * Yours aye, Buaidh  talk e-mail 20:22, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Who does isolation matter to?
High isolation summits present a wonderful challenge to climbers in regions that are not overrun with folks who try to collect as many high peaks as they can in as short a period of time as possible (e.g., the Southern Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada.) Buaidh  talk e-mail 00:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Are there national or international organizations, who deal with it?

 * Government agencies are not concerned with topographic isolation, although they provide the elevation and horizontal position data required to calculate topographic isolation. Most mountain climbing organizations rely on other sources (e.g, peakbagger.com and Wikipedia) to calculate topographic isolation for them. If a climber or organization finds a discrepancy with a calculated topographic isolation, hopefully they will let us know. Buaidh  talk e-mail 00:54, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Is there documented custom in the relevant off wiki community for reliance on educated amateurs for this?
I think "educated amateurs" may be a biased way of describing it. As far as I can tell, there is a small community of GIS people who compute prominence. A history of the term is described here: The USGS acknowledges the term, but does not offer its own computation. Mathworks (the company that makes Matlab) offers a library to compute prominence (and isolation, too).

One of the main people in the community is Alan Dawson, who published, and participated in creating Peaklist.com. An important book on the topic is by Adam Helman About the community, Helman states, "The community of prominence theoreticians, list builders, and climbers have reached a critical mass --- one that finally suggested the elaboration and publication of a book dedicated exclusively to the subject."

As far as I can tell, here is a list of websites that actually use the software and publish the results:
 * Peakbagger.com
 * Peaklist.com
 * The Database of British and Irish Hills (http://www.hills-database.co.uk/)
 * ListsOfJohn
 * County Highpointers Association (www.cohp.com)
 * Trafford Publishing (Helman's publisher) is a well-known self/vanity-publishing imprint. I can't find any information that would substantiate TACit Press (Dawson's publisher) as an established imprint or not (EDIT: based on this, it looks to have been an amateur operation EDIT2: though based on this they were able at least to give ISBNs and the sourcing/editing/checking doesn't appear bad, though the book is essentially just a pamphlet for hobbyists). FOARP (talk) 09:06, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Demographics
Greetings, according to official data the population of Vlachs in Serbia as of 2011 counts as 35 330 [], today one editor posted on their page 3 sources, 2 of them [], [] are from same authors who claim that quote:′′′ members of the community put forth unofficial estimates between 150,000 and 300,000.′′′ and one that [] I cannot verify, seems to be a bit off since that kind of estimation would place Vlachs as second largest ethnic community in Serbia and also the regions in which they mostly live in Serbia (east) don′t count a overall large population                        [], so are those sources reliable enough for a demographic estimation? Thank you. Theonewtihreason (talk) 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * They look to be reliable sources. If someone is published by DeGruyter, we immediately have to take them seriously, unless specific concerns emerge. That doesn't mean that the census data should be excluded though.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I think Common Sense Media should be deprecated
Common Sense Media is a San Francisco-based non-profit organization that provides education and advocacy to families to promote safe technology and media for children. It reviews entertainment in terms of age-appropriate educational content, and it has also developed a set of ratings that are intended to gauge the educational value of videos, games, and apps.

But I think Common Sense Media is unreliable for the following reasons. I used rottenwebsites.miraheze.org/wiki/Common_Sense_Media which has a page on the wiki.
 * 1) They are too gullible about lessons, believing that every media influences children. For example, on their Teen Titans Go! review they gave it a 3/5 in teaching positive messages, and they gave 13 Reasons Why a 4/5 due to the show supporting suicide.
 * 2) As an advocate for education, they pander towards educational shows and they are biased against shows that entertain, such as Spongebob SquarePants.
 * 3) They pander towards social justice warriors, meaning the source is ideologically biased and they pander towards media supporting their ideology. For example, they entirely neglect content containing sexual violence against men.Bsslover371 (talk) 01:27, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Bias does not make a source unreliable. And as we are generally using CSM for their opinions on media, that becomes less a problem with outright reliability and more if they are considered a DUE opinion to include on children/family media. --M asem (t) 01:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There was a recent discussion here that determined it was reliable for reviews of films, tv series, books and so forth but not for anything controversial and I still go along with that, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:CSM in fact. --M asem (t) 02:03, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * What Masem said: bias does not equal unreliability. And I'm not even sure they're biased in any true sense, maybe just need attribution. You could maybe argue their recommendations are overprotective? But that's not something we deal with. —valereee (talk) 12:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As others have said, we need evidence they tell porkies, not that they biased.Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the case could be made that as an advocacy org that primarily reports on whether media is suitable for children, rather than a more conventional entertainment/criticism publication, it could be argued that CSM is less DUE than more typical critical outlets, but that doesn't equal outright unreliability. I'm a bit surprised by OP's assertion that they pander towards social justice warriors--my impression based on back when I read CSM regularly (years ago) was that they tended towards social conservatism of the "not in front of the children" variety. I'm also uncertain that it was wise to create the WP:CSM redirect for this source, given that there's another much better-known source by those initials, but this isn't the venue for that discussion. signed,Rosguill talk 16:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually think is is more concerning that Common Sense Media said 13 Reasons Why supports suicide. The show has been controversial but I don't believe is is accurate to say it supports suicide and if CSM claims it does as User:Bsslover371 alleges, that is concerning. I don't know why CSM likes a show that supports (teen who isn't terminally ill ) suicide but I guess they're entitled to their PoV. Nil Einne (talk) 16:26, 28 December 2021 (UTC) 16:32, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see any assertion in the review itself that the show is "pro-suicide", that appears to be an unwarranted inference by OP. signed,Rosguill talk 16:29, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * they gave 13 Reasons Why a 4/5 due to the show supporting suicide https://www.commonsensemedia.org/tv-reviews/13-reasons-why does not say that the show supports suicide. Vexations (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Professors of history (Alan Lester and Carlos Conde Sorares) about Robert Tombs and History Reclaimed
I posted this at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, but this one was much more appropriate, as no editor has been "repeatedly adding defamatory or libelous material to articles about living people over an extended period" (when my edit was reverted, I took it to the talk page), and that is likely why my thread got no response other than the other editor (Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d) I was discussing this with, so my bad for that. The issue is the bolded paragraph.

Tombs is the editor of History Reclaimed, a website created by a "group of anti-woke scholars" including Nigel Biggar, Zareer Masani, and Andrew Roberts, among others. The website describes itself as "an independent and non-partisan academic organisation ... composed of historians ... dedicated to historical research to expand knowledge and understanding about the fundamental changes surrounding our country." Reception has been mixed, with right-wing tabloids such as the Daily Express supporting this retaliation by those academics against the perceived wokeism of Black Lives Matter and anti-racist movements. University professor of history Alan Lester commented that while activists may get details wrong, they get the bigger picture right, and Reclaiming History "believe themselves to be marginalised and gagged", despite including at least one CBE. Carlos Conde Solares, a senior lecturer in Spanish history at Northumbria University, wrote that it "purports to defend the positive legacies of colonialism whilst ignoring the contributions to civilisation made by European nations other than Britain."

The issue has been my addition of the bolded second paragraph on WP:SPS grounds; however, my argument is that while Lester wrote on an university blog, Solares was not self-published (Solares already discusses and mentions Lester, I added him as a primary source to verify the quotes) and also qualifies as an expert like Lester. Therefore, the main issue is of weight, but I think we should first discuss their reliability. I think they are due because it is Tombs and History Reclaimed that are engaged in historical revisionism, not Lester and Solares, who represent a mainstream view and are due. We cannot discuss this only from the POV of this "group of anti-woke scholars" (per The Telegraph), and without Lester and Sorales the whole section is undue and should be deleted. I think Lester and Sorales make it due because the website it promotes historical revisionist views; if the reverse was true (e.g. Tombs and History Reclaimed are mainstream and majority, while Lester and Sorales are fringe or minority), and I would not even need to discuss; however, if Lester and Sorales indeed represent the mainstream view, or at least a majority view, I find it absurd to see them dismissed as undue. Davide King (talk) 19:25, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

WikiIslam
As noted in numerous places, the website WikiIslam has undergone a complete overhaul that removed much Islamophobic and otherwise objectionable content. This is noted in numerous places by Ex-Muslims of North America, WikiIslam's parent organization, here: https://twitter.com/exmuslimsorg/status/1374433601454972942 and here: https://exmuslims.org/wikiislam-overhaul-milestone-achieved/ inter alia, as well as on WikiIslam itself here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Renovations. The article currently quotes, via a third source, an outdated mission statement, while excluding the current mission statement here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam This has been noted numerous times on WikiIslam and the website of WikiIslam's parent organization, Ex-Muslims of North America. The current article cites Ex-Muslims of North America to prove that they took over the website; moreover, the Wikipedia page of Ex-Muslims of North America cites WikiIslam when talking about Ex-Muslims of North America's ownership of WikiIslam. As per WP:RS, and I quote, "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Numerous other websites including wikis such as RationalWiki have Wikipedia pages that cite the website itself when discussing the website. The overhaul has also been noted by academics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wgfRLldKI and is verifiable on the website's changelog: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Log. Despite this, a cadre of editors have banded together to say that, despite Wikipedia's own policies, the obviously verifiable descriptions of these changes cannot be used as a source in the article; verifiably false information remains on the article, such as "A corpus of apostasy testimonies are featured too." and "The site also hosts a list of 101 "provocative" questions that are to be asked of any Muslim, to prove that Islam is not a "true religion"."--Underthemayofan (talk) 05:49, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No: As Doug Weller wrote at the t/p, that's just not acceptable. Organisations and people lie by omission and commission about themselves or try in various ways to make themselves look acceptable. The reception section in our article provides a clear view on the nature of the site and using them as a source for their own article is a strict no-go territory. The "academics" quoted above have consistently deemed the site to be Islamophobic (see reception section) — in their latest seminar presentation (which is not peer-reviewed), they document WikiIslam's servicing the same old goals but in a "scientificised avatar"; the cherrypicking of arguments from the fringes etc. continue. Which is then used for propagating Islamophobia.Unsurprisingly, our OP misuses this line of reasoning to write that the website is offering scientific and valid critiques of Islam. He also proposes that we quote their mission statement as the second line of our lead :) TrangaBellam (talk) 06:02, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue is not "Islamophobia" per se, the issue is whether the overhaul took place, whether the material was removed, and whether WikiIslam currently contains the material that the Wikipedia article claims it does. WP:RS does not make a provision saying that "Islamophobic material cannot be used to reference itself" so whether or not it is an "islamophobic website" is not relevant to the discussion here. The Wikipedia article currently contains verifiably false information as per WP:RS and WP:V.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The article currently quotes the mission statement from 2015, for some reason these editors want to keep the mission statement from 7 years ago but do not with to quote the mission statement today, again in violation of WP:RS.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If reliably sourced information becomes out of date it should be possible to mention that without removing reference to the earlier situation. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 06:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * User talk:Pbsouthwood I attempted to update the information while keeping the rest of the previous information in a historical context, but User:TrangaBellam reverted this without seeking consensus and then reported me for edit warring (and violated WP:AGF by accusing me of a conflict of interest). You can see the previous version here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam&oldid=1061813731, with the historical material kept in its historical content.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:48, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As user User:Louis P. Boog noted, this type of "censorship" "seems to me to go against everything Wikipedia stands for."--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:51, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * WikiIslam offers what academics have called "scientific" and "valid" critiques of the religion of Islam - And, you wonder why you are being reverted. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:54, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Those are quotes from an academic discussing WikiIslam here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wgfRLldKI . On the talk page I offered an alternative quote from the video and to introduce a qualifiying statement from the video, rather than seeking consensus or adding context you just removed it. You also removed more material than this that was added by consensus, and removed the contextual information about the history of the website. "WikiIslam described its purpose in 2015 as "collect[ing] facts relating to the criticism of Islam from valid Islamic sources without the effect of censorship that is common in Wikipedia" and claims to have started as a result of the difficulty in "presenting 'correct' (i.e., critical) information on [Wikipedia]."" This is the mission statement from 2015, care to justify using WP:RS and WP:V how including this in the article but excluding the current day mission statement here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam is reasonable?--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I won't reply further to your sealioning. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that you're bowing out of the argument.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Or that you are not worth to engage with. People who are paid to edit can seldom see their follies.
 * We include the previous mission statement because it has been covered by scholars. And, they read something more into it: "critical, as used on WikiIslam, meant holding preconceived negative opinions of Muslims and Islam."
 * If we include the current statement from their own site, we have no such observation on what it really means. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not paid to edit. Please review WP:AGF and stop violating it.--Underthemayofan (talk) 07:26, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * How do we tell the difference between removing something because it is no longer part of an organisation's belief and removing it because the organisation does not want it public anymore? Doug Weller  talk 08:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not the domain of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Wikipedia provides info on what's on the site, determining "an organisation's belief" as it exists in their heart is beyond the purview of Wikipedia.--Underthemayofan (talk) 08:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Verifiability is a necessary but not sufficient reason to include something. Because we cannot tell if a statement about an organisation's belief actually reflects their beliefs and actions, we rely mainly on secondary sources to describe the organisation or individual. Your preferred version of the article relied basically on self-published material from WikiIslam. I accept that you are not paid to edit by the way, and if you are just an ordinary editor there or take no part in it but support it you have no conflict of interest. Doug Weller  talk 10:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * A current example is that many, perhaps most, white supremacists insist they are white nationalist. Doug Weller  talk 09:57, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Verifiability is a necessary but not sufficient reason to include something. Because we cannot tell if a statement about an organisation's belief actually reflects their beliefs and actions, we rely mainly on secondary sources to describe the organisation or individual. Your preferred version of the article relied basically on self-published material from WikiIslam. I accept that you are not paid to edit by the way, and if you are just an ordinary editor there or take no part in it but support it you have no conflict of interest. Doug Weller  talk 10:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * A current example is that many, perhaps most, white supremacists insist they are white nationalist. Doug Weller  talk 09:57, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

So what is the question here? Wiki(s) are not reliable sources by definition. <b style="display:inline; color:#008000;">Cinadon</b><b style="display:inline; color:#c0c0c0;">36</b> 10:12, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Its still a wiki, end of story.Slatersteven (talk) 10:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * All the discussion about bias, mission statements and overhauls is pointless… because the primary problem with WikiIslam is that it is a wiki. We don’t consider ANY wiki reliable (not even Wikipedia). So… Rather than citing wikiIslam itself, look to the sources that are cited in its articles. Some of those sources might be reliable by our standards, and you can cite those sources to support what you write here. Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, linking WP:USERGEN for reference, — Paleo Neonate  – 15:26, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Having looked into the issue in more depth… it illustrates how multiple policies and guidelines have to be considered and balanced against each other. So let me break it down:
 * a) We have multiple RS that have criticized WikiIslam (WI) and applied derogatory labels in doing so.
 * b) WI claims that they have changed their policies and renovated in response to such criticism.
 * c) Wikipedia editors are of mixed opinions as to whether these reforms have actually taken place.
 * Now to apply policy… first let us examine WP:V (and its subsidiary guideline WP:RS). What is verifiable fact is: a) Multiple sources have indeed criticized WI and labeled it derogatorily, and b) WI has indeed responded by claiming it has reformed. The derogatory sources are Reliable, and so WP can mention the derogatory labels and cite those sources. The fact that WI responded is reliably verified by Directly quoting (or closely paraphrased) under ABOUTSELF… however, what is NOT reliably verified by WI’s statement is whether they have actually reformed.
 * Now let us examine WP:NPOV… the key question is how much WEIGHT should we give a) the derogatory sources, and b) WI’s claims of reform? In the case of the derogatory sources, they are not only reliable, most are independent - and independence is a major factor in determining WEIGHT. So we should give them a fair amount of weight. In the case of WI’s response, self-statements do carry some weight (and so can be mentioned), but because they are not independent, they do not carry as much weight as independent sources. We do not put them on an even par.
 * Finally, we must apply our WP:No original research policy. This affects the question of whether WI’s claims of reform have or have not actually taken place.  To answer this question, someone must analyze the content of WI today, and compare it to its content in the past.  The key is that this “someone” must be someone external to Wikipedia.  WE (the editors of Wikipedia) can NOT analyze WI’s content and draw the conclusion that it has (or has not) changed.  For us to perform this analysis would mean that the conclusion is original to WP. We must look for an external source to perform the analysis.
 * My conclusion: the article should note (prominently) that WI is resoundingly criticized and mention the derogatory labels in the first paragraph. This should be followed up with more detail later in the article.  WI’s claims that they have addressed the criticisms should also be mentioned… but only in passing and not in the first paragraph. Blueboar (talk) 16:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , They never claimed to have renovated in response to criticisms (where did you see it?) - even if they had, WP:MANDY would have applied. Quite to the contrary, as our article already notes, EXMNA's press release spoke of a nine-year-long "tradition!" The site claimed in 2012 (or even earlier) to have renovated in response to Larsson but failed to influence academic reception — that page stands now deleted, fwiw. The current meta-pages do not mention any factor behind the renovation.
 * We already have, Three years later, they claimed to have purged a range of content—from polemical tracts and satires to testimonies and op-eds—of the site. cited to their About Us section - what more do you want? TrangaBellam (talk) 17:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Blueboar I think this is preeminently reasonable. I would like to include their mission statement and their statement that they are "neutral towards religions, world views, and issues of a political nature and likewise stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary" and attribute it to the wiki in the 2nd paragraph. Would you be amenable to that?--Underthemayofan (talk) 20:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Mission statements are always promotional and I’m not convinced we should ever use them. I don’t see them as encyclopaedic. Doug Weller  talk 20:48, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The mission statement from WikiIslam in 2015 is on the Wiki right now.--Underthemayofan (talk) 20:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I presume you mean the article. As I said, it shouldn’t be there. Doug Weller  talk 20:52, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * If you are amenable to me removing the 2015 mission statement from the WikiIslam article, please state so in the talk page and I will remove that reference.--Underthemayofan (talk) 21:03, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That portion is sourced to not only one but three independent reliable sources. Snuish (talk) 01:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As User:Peter Southwood noted "If reliably sourced information becomes out of date it should be possible to mention that without removing reference to the earlier situation." And as User:Blueboar has frequently noted, for this purpose WP:ABOUTSELF should allow WikiIslam to be cited and attributed on this matter. On the basis of this consensus I would like to proceed with a sentence pointing out what the current mission statement is based on the page on WikiIslam containing it.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:07, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you only read what you like to read? TrangaBellam (talk) 06:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Then it can be used. Doug Weller  talk 10:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Three years later, they claimed to have purged a range of content—from polemical tracts and satires to testimonies and op-eds—of the site. I would say we absolutely cannot cite them as the sole source for that - it is clearly unduly self-serving. If we have secondary sources, of course, that's fine, we can use them, but we cannot use a WP:SPS to cite something like "we fixed the problem" because that's obviously unduly self-serving, even with attribution. I would generally raise the same objection to mission statements - "they say their goal is truth, justice, and the American Way" or the like is obviously an unduly self-serving statement and requires a secondary source. --Aquillion (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Three years later, they claimed to have purged a range of content—from polemical tracts and satires to testimonies and op-eds—of the site. I would say we absolutely cannot cite them as the sole source for that - it is clearly unduly self-serving. If we have secondary sources, of course, that's fine, we can use them, but we cannot use a WP:SPS to cite something like "we fixed the problem" because that's obviously unduly self-serving, even with attribution. I would generally raise the same objection to mission statements - "they say their goal is truth, justice, and the American Way" or the like is obviously an unduly self-serving statement and requires a secondary source. --Aquillion (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * , I suggest you propose a change on the article's talk page, complete with the references you want to use, and work towards consensus there. Be specific about the exact wording that you propose to replace, and how and why the references you propose reliably support the words you propose using. There is no way you are going to get consensus here to use the content of a open wiki as a reliable source without going into the precise details, and this is not the place to do that. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 07:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree, I have made some suggestions on the talk page. I am afraid to make any pages to the page directly as is because User:TrangaBellam got me a warning for edit warring (which I think was unwarranted). Your input and that of User:Blueboar would be highly appreciated.--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:20, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it is worth noting there's a concurrent discussion at COIN. --SVTCobra 08:11, 27 December 2021 (UTC) "outside of a few very, very limited citations to the non-user-generated parts for unexceptional, uncontroversial, non-self-serving WP:ABOUTSELF stuff on its own page" the pieces we want to quote from WikiIslam are exactly that. They are from the front page, which is NOT user generated but rather admin generated, and they are being cited about their mission statement and the things that they claim for themselves, and there is no dispute that the website actually does say these things. Also, all of this material has been posted on the social media and website of Ex-Muslims of North America. I suppose if the quotes were taken directly from them this objection would not apply?--Underthemayofan (talk) 06:29, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It is WP:USERGENERATED and therefore completely unusable (outside of a few very, very limited citations to the non-user-generated parts for unexceptional, uncontroversial, non-self-serving WP:ABOUTSELF stuff on its own page); it should not be cited for anything and no amount of changes (short of completely deleting the entire thing and starting over as a non-usergenerated site) are going to change that. None of the other things people are discussing above matter. The "overhaul" makes absolutely zero difference because it the content was never the reason the source was unusable to begin with - it could be the best wiki in the world and it would still be completely unusable as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * non-self-serving is the keyword.
 * Apart from the fringes of the fringe, you won't see any site openly asserting that they are Islamophobic. It is not the 90s or early 2000; most say that they are offering "politically incorrect" perspectives on Islam "suppressed" by MSM etc. Most hate groups identified by SPLC deny that they are white supremacists/xenophobes/volcels etc. Hardly means that we can take their self-descriptions seriously. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:10, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So does the current WikiIslam site say any of that? '"politically incorrect" perspectives on Islam "suppressed" by MSM etc.'
 * What stands out about the wikipedia article currently are the virulent accusations by "Reliable Sources":
 * "Stories were selected only to show that Muslims are 'ignorant, backward or even stupid' ... To be 'critical', as used on WikiIslam, meant holding preconceived negative opinions of Muslims and Islam."
 * When you read that and then go visit the site you half expect to find it sounding like something from ACT! for America or the English Defence League. That's why a sentence along the lines of "according to Wikiislam, the cite 'stays away from extremist, sensationalist or emotional commentary'" would improve the wikipedia article. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * no, they are more subtle than that. While Underthemayofan asked to include this from a source:" "they (WikiIslam) want to address these questions (about Islam) by a scientific approach." I think the key quote from that source is "Firstly, we believe that some Islamophobic activists and milieus in the Western world work to anchor prejudice against Islam and Muslims in what they see as scientific arguments about the nature and history of Islam. Secondly, we argue that the website called WikiIslam has emerged as an important point of reference and source of knowledge for the scientification of Islamophobia." This isn't your usual shouting hatred of Islam, it's much more clever and has positioned itself as a knowledge base for such sites. Doug Weller  talk 15:34, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know, something doesn't seem quite right. It's almost as though the evidence against WikiIslam is so weak (They use fact based evidence, that's "scientification of Islamophobia"; There is no phobia in their "Islamophobia", that's their sneaky "subtlety") you can't allow them to even speak a few words for fear of breaking the spell. Couldn't you accuse just about anyone of anything saying "I don't have any evidence because they're just too clever"? --Louis P. Boog (talk) 17:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand what the source is saying. I don't know where you get "they use fact based evidence" from. Doug Weller  talk 17:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand what the source is saying. I don't know where you get "they use fact based evidence" from. Doug Weller  talk 17:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Here is an example of what I mean, from the wikipedia article on ACT! for America,
 * In an e-mail distributed in July 2011, the group stated: "ACT! for America does not believe, nor advocate, that all Muslims are engaged in stealth jihad. ACT! for America does not believe, nor advocate, that all Muslims 'must be stopped'." The Southern Poverty Law Center, called this a "whitewash" and in reply quoted statements from founder Brigitte Gabriel:
 * "If a Muslim who has—who is—a practicing Muslim who believes the word of the Koran to be the word of Allah, who abides by Islam, who goes to mosque and prays every Friday, who prays five times a day—this practicing Muslim, who believes in the teachings of the Koran, cannot be a loyal citizen to the United States of America."
 * The editors have evidence of Islamophobia and they don't fear quoting the subject of the article. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 18:10, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * So does the current WikiIslam site say any of that? That is the sort of question we should rely on WP:SECONDARY sources to answer.  WikiIslam is obviously not an impartial source on itself and therefore shouldn't be directly cited to say things like "we're not Islamophobic anymore tho" - that's the kind of thing we would want to cite to independent secondary sources, not to a WP:SPS. --Aquillion (talk) 21:45, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Iransara.info
I would like comments on the reliability of iransara.info, particularly for the Frood Fouladvand article. It seems to be an extremely partisan source, and seems to be inappropriately relied upon in the article.

I haven't made one of these posts here before, so I hope I haven't stuffed it up somehow. If I have, please let me know. :) Mako001 (C) (T) (The Alternate Mako) 09:08, 29 December 2021 (UTC)


 * @The Alternate Mako, your post is fine. Based on, I'd say this website should not be used for anything on WP, WP:ABOUTSELF theoretically aside. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:11, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I had thought as much, but figured it would do to bring it here anyway, since there's nothing here about it previously. It was being used as fact in the Frood Fouladvand article, courtesy of a user, who has since been indef banned as NOTHERE after an edit war involving both sides exchanging ethnic insults, accusations of trolling and plenty of general ad hominem nonsense. I ran into it while on RC patrol, sent it to AN3, and now I'm trying to clean up the mess that's left. It does have a good deal of usefulness as ABOUTSELF, as it seems to be the official english language site for the API or Kingdom Assembly of Iran, so can be useful in that regard, if nothing else, bar one exception. It also provided a scanned copy of an "arrest document" (actually an Application for Forfeiture of Detained Cash form under Section 298 (2) of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002) which did give useful insight into why he "inexplicably" was investigated by MI5 (wanted to overthrow the Iranian government, by force if necessary). Mako001 (C) (T) (The Alternate Mako) 03:24, 30 December 2021 (UTC)