Wikipedia:Requested moves/University of Maryland, College Park

Description of Poll
THIS POLL IS COMPLETED

Summary of Results

 * 1) University of Maryland
 * 2) Agree: 9
 * 3) Disagree: 9 (including 2 first time users)
 * 4) Naming Convention
 * 5) Short: 3
 * 6) Long: 0
 * 7) No Change: 9

Obviously, on the issue of University naming policy there will be no change.

As with all polls, failure to reach consensus on the name of the University of Maryland, College Park favors the status quo and argues that no changes should be made. However, this issue may be revisited in a few months to see if a consensus has emerged, or earlier if the facts change in such a way as to make a definitive outcome likely.

Start of Poll Description
This survey is an attempt to resolve issues related to the naming of college and universities.

The first part of this poll is a specific issue related to the identity of the University System of Maryland campus in College Park, MD, and the appropriate usage of the term "University of Maryland".

The second part of the poll is a general policy proposal which will assess whether a consensus exists for the preferred usage of either long or short names for colleges and universities that can be identified in multiple ways.

This poll will run for two weeks from 17:00, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC) to 17:00, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC).

First Issue: University System of Maryland, College Park Campus
The first part of this poll is to help establish the appropriate way for referring to the University System of Maryland campus located in College Park, MD, and what meaning, if any, should be assumed for the phrase "University of Maryland". The campus, which is formally known as the University of Maryland, College Park, is widely referred to as simply the "University of Maryland". Further, the University has explicitly requested that "College Park" not be used in referring to this campus (see details below).

Facts Not in Dispute

 * The legal name for the flagship campus of the University System of Maryland is "University of Maryland, College Park".
 * In Maryland statutes, the phrase "University of Maryland" is reserved as referring to the University System of Maryland as a whole.
 * In common usage, the phrase "University of Maryland" predominantly means the "University of Maryland, College Park".
 * The "University of Maryland, College Park", though acknowledging their official, legal name, explicitly asks that they be referred to as the "University of Maryland":
 * Formal Name: University of Maryland, College Park
 * Appropriate 1st Reference: University of Maryland
 * Preferred 2nd Reference: Maryland, the university or the flagship; Terrapins or Terps in athletic references
 * Abbreviation: If an abbreviation is needed in headlines or TV chyrons, UM would be appropriate, but not UMCP. The university’s name should not be abbreviated in article text.
 * Location: College Park is our location. Its use as a name for the institution should be avoided. This colloquial reference is not readily recognized by audiences beyond the Baltimore–Washington metro area.
 * The University's official graphics do not include the name "College Park" (same reference as above).
 * The University's recommendation to avoid including "College Park" is a recent decision. Most official references to the University prior to 1997 included "College Park".
 * The websites http://www.umd.edu/ and http://www.maryland.edu/ link to the official site of the University. The site http://www.umcp.edu/ is blank.
 * The frontpage of the official website refers to the school as the "University of Maryland".
 * In NCAA athletics and sports related reporting, the University is referred to simply as "Maryland".
 * Several other schools in the University System of Maryland have names which could, in principle, be reduced to "University of Maryland". These include "University of Maryland, Baltimore County", "University of Maryland, Baltimore", "University of Maryland Eastern Shore", and "University of Maryland University College".  For these schools the usage "University of Maryland" is uncommon outside Maryland.
 * In addition, there exist several professional programs, such as the "University of Maryland Medical School" and the "University of Maryland Law School", which one might refer to simply as the "University of Maryland". Most of these programs are not located at the College Park campus.  This usage in referring to professional programs may be common.
 * The website http://www.umaryland.edu/ refers the "University of Maryland, Baltimore".

Proposal
The University should be referred to by its common name, "University of Maryland", and unless explicitly disclaimed all references in Wikipedia to the "University of Maryland" shall be assummed to indicate the University campus at College Park.

A vote of agree could be expected to have the following consequences:
 * 1) The current page at University of Maryland, College Park will be moved to University of Maryland, with "University of Maryland, College Park" redirecting to the shorter name.
 * 2) In all articles, except where contrasted against other University System of Maryland campuses, the name "University of Maryland, College Park" should be truncated to "University of Maryland".
 * 3) Any references in Wikipedia to the "University of Maryland" shall be assumed to indicate the College Park campus unless explicit context indicates otherwise.

A vote of disagree supports the use of the legal names and could be expected to have the following consequences:
 * 1) The University's page would remain at University of Maryland, College Park.
 * 2) University of Maryland should redirect to a disambiguation page.
 * 3) Usage of the terms "University of Maryland" and "University of Maryland, College Park" should be left to the discretion of editors at any other pages on which they occur.

In either event, appropriate disambiguation and discussion of the naming issues will appear on the page for the University and for the University System of Maryland.

Agree

 * 1) Agree. Should refer to the University by the name they asked to be called.  Dragons flight 17:00, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Agree. Common name, not particularly ambiguous. john k 17:27, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Agree. A note at/near the top saying that there are other campuses that the term University of Maryland could refer to and that a list of these can be found at University of Maryland (disambiguation) would also be appropriate. Thryduulf 19:00, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Agree. It's what most (nearly all) people generally mean by the U of MD. older ≠ wiser 20:16, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Agree. I have never heard someone say UMD and not mean College Park, it is the flagship campus.  Since Wikipedia is an internet encyclopedia, redirecting the UMD CP link is easy and will trouble no one trying to find UMD.  Tkessler 00:45, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Agree. I echo Dragons flight. BLANKFAZE | (&#1095;&#1090;&#1086;??) 22:05, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Agree. Shorter name is not ambiguous.  Jussenadv 22:30, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) Agree. - arguments above. ugen 64 03:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) Agree. - agree; this is what people are looking for when they type in "University of Maryland" --BaronLarf 07:17, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Disagree

 * 1) Disagree. - This is an encyclopedia, it should use official names for entries and disambiguation for coloquial terms. The University of Maryland refers to the University of Maryland System.  It is only coloquial terms that associates it with UMD, College Park. Agriculture 21:15, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * No, this is what the university calls itself. See the website - . john k
 * Of course, one could remember that the University does not have the authority to change its own name. -Howardjp 01:07, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * As mentioned, the University System is the one with the Authority, not the University of Maryland. The University also does NOT call itself this formally.  On the applications I sent for grad school they all listed themselves as "The University of Maryland at College Park".
 * 1) Disagree. - For reasons listed extensively elsewhere. -Howardjp 01:07, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Disagree. - Though it is not as clear a decision as it initially seemed. Thanks to "User:Agriculture" for clear rationale.  Sfahey 01:57, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Disagree. - Gauge 04:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) *Lengthy comments and replies moved to comments section
 * 5) Disagree. - the disambiguation page should be used, it should not redirect. Fuzheado | Talk 11:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Disagree. - The University of Maryland refers to the entire system, not the primary undergraduate campus on Route 1 in College Park, MD. This isn't Dartmouth or Amherst, the university of Maryland is not an institution that focuses primarily on undergraduate education, it is a university in the true sense of the word.  For example, the law school and the med school are far, far removed from College Park, but they are perhaps the best known graduate schools the Unversity offers, and immediately are identifiable with the University of Maryland.
 * 7) *Unsigned statement is User:Nrb in his first, and at this moment only edit. Dragons flight 14:44, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) **Her, actually. And yes, my editing has been confined, so far, to unsigned spelling edits.  You are right about the unsigned part being sketch, however.
 * 9) Disagree. - for reasons listed in 2 + 6
 * 10) *Unsigned statement is User:141.156.110.104 also in his first edit. Dragons flight 21:40, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * 11) **The joys have having a mailing list of UMCP students and asking them to defend their honor. -Howardjp 22:14, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * 12) Disagree, needs to be on a case by case basis. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 20:25, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) *Boothy, could you clarify whether you have a preference with respect to the specific case of the article name for the College Park campus? Dragons flight 22:04, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * 14) ** Sure, my preference would be to keep the current name of the article, with a page named University of Maryland set as a disambugation page. It shoulde be noted on the UMCP page that it's officlan name is University of Maryland. My reasons being is that their would be a problem that areise with the names of the schools associated with the Universities. Where as the University of Maryland School of Business (Robert H. Smith School of Business as it is now called) is located at College Park, The University of Maryland School of Medicine, University of Maryland school of Law, and the other professional schools (all of which use the University of Maryland monicker) are not located at College Park but at University of Maryland, Baltimore (UMB), which is a separate university from the College Park Campus. Also UMB was the first university in Maryland to use the University of Maryland name, it did not assume it's current form until after UMCP was elevanted to university status thus becoming the flagship in the state system, being founded in 1809 where as UMCP was founded in 1856 as Maryland Agricultural College. All of this is explaind in the history section on the UMCP page. It should be also noted that the system is not now call the University of Maryland System, it is called the University System of Maryland, being that in encompasses all of the Universities of Maryland as well as the universities in Frostburg, Bowie, Salisbury, Towson, as well as Coppin State University. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 22:31, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * 15) 'Disagree The policy is already in place against using names by request of an instutition in favor of common names. The appropriate place for discussing such disambiguation and naming conventions would be in Requested movies and Naming conventions] anyway. --Sketchee 22:21, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Comments
I'm an alumnus of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County and often refer to it as just the University of Maryland, both because no one knows what the hell 'UMBC' is and because it doesn't make sense to identify the specific campus. Personally, if I look up the University of Maryland, I'd expect to get information about all of the campuses, notably mentioning that College Park happens to be the largest. The individual campuses have quite separate reputations as well: college park is generally known as being good for sports and a 'party school' as well as a small city in itself, whereas the Baltimore county campus is much smaller and bills itself as an 'honors university in Maryland.' We also don't have a stupid turtle as our mascot ;-) - Gauge 04:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm curious when you were there? The College Park campus has been doing a good deal to improve their repuation over the last decade or so (both in actuality, e.g. hiring Nobel Laurettes and dumping money into new facillities, and through aggressive public relations).  As noted above, the university itself doesn't want to be referred to as College Park any more, but you are of course entitled to disagree.  Dragons flight 05:02, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Regarding your question about when I attended, I graduated in May 2004. The popular perception, as far as I can tell, is that the Baltimore county campus is the more seriously academic school, at least at the undergraduate level. College Park is doing excellent research at the graduate level, of course. I think the Baltimore county campus tries to make a point of keeping their SAT average scores higher than that of College Park, for what it's worth. As far as "campuses" go, this is just how I think of them; I don't know how the University of Maryland system treats the issue officially. Did I mention that we are undefeated in football, unlike CP?  ;-)  Cheers, Gauge 01:24, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The idea that the school in College Park and the school in Baltimore County are just "campuses" of the same school is a highly dubious one, let me add. They are essentially different schools which fall under some of the same administrative structure of the University of Maryland System.  But they each have their own president, their own faculty, their own athletic programs, &c &c &c.  Students at UMBC and students at Maryland don't consider themselves as going to the same school.  john k 05:34, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The idea that they are just campuses of the same University System isn't highly dubious, it is a fact of the University Systems in place for state schools. Are they very different institutions with very different goals? Yes. But they are both part of the same University of Maryland until separated by the state. Agriculture 07:24, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * In Maryland there are two state institutions (Morgan State University and St. Mary's College of Maryland) which are not a part of the University System of Maryland. This shows that the State does know how to keep things separate when it wants to.  -Howardjp 13:01, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Along a similar line, the entire University of California school falls under one president.  Does that mean those 10 university pages should be merged?  Of course, you'll just call this a non-sequiter, I am sure.  Regardless, the USM schools are not as separate as you may think.  They do have their own athletic programs (or none at all), or their own presidents, but they do share faculty.  All faculty are employed by USM, not by the constituent institution.  Further, students can cross enroll among campuses without much difficulty, and these institutions share a LOT of common management and support staff.  ALL degrees are issued in the name of the Board of Regents of the University System of Maryland and the component college (ie, in my case, College Park's College of Computer, Mathematical, and Physical Sciences.   -Howardjp 13:01, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Look, I don't want to argue too much about whether or not the schools of the University System of Maryland are one school with many campuses or many schools. This is entirely a semantical argument, depending on how you define whether things are separate schools. Of course there are common institutions between all the schools. At the same time, they are, in most respects, fairly independent of one another. But this is all beside the point. In our undisputed facts section, we note a link to a press release from the university which notes that in 1997 the Maryland General Assembly passed a law allowing the school in College Park to simply refer to itself as the "University of Maryland." The school's website, thus, refers to it only as the "University of Maryland." It also asks the media to refer to it as such. The abbreviation used throughout the website is "UM". Obviously, the statutory name is still "University of Maryland, College Park," but there is still specific provision to use just "University of Maryland." And this is what the school actually uses. And, again, almost any reference to "University of Maryland" unadorned (whatever the frustration of UMBC graduates that people haven't heard of their school) is going to be to the school in College Park. The Baltimore campus, let me add, would not generally be called "University of Maryland, Baltimore," either, but in general references would be to individual professional schools, so there isn't ambiguity. Nobody on the other side of this question has managed to dispute any of these points. Instead, there's just weaselly claims that somehow usage of "University of Maryland," which is both official and widespread, is somehow "colloquial." This case is about as clear an instance of application of common name policies as I can imagine, so long as we include a brief disambiguator at the top of the page. john k 17:02, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Funny you should mention the 1997 law. Go find it.  I went looking for it a few months ago and could not find it.  -Howardjp 17:14, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you suggesting that the University of Maryland is lying? john k 17:30, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure it's a semantic argument, but you brought it up. Don't run from it now that it has show your reasoning weak.  -Howardjp 17:42, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't bring it up - Gauge brought it up by saying that we shouldn't act as though one mere "campus" was the whole University of Maryland. john k 01:01, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another Reason to Vote Against This
I am not sure why I had not brough this up before, but it occurs to me that University of Maryland, Baltimore was styled "University of Maryland" 108 years before University of Maryland, College Park and University of Maryland Eastern Shore was styled "University of Maryland" one year before UMCP. UMCP was, in fact, the third school (at least, according to my research) to have used the name, University of Maryland. -Howardjp 22:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On what basis do you claim that UMB was called the University of Maryland before 1920? Just because some of the institutions of the school have existed since 1812 does not mean that it was then called the University of Maryland? john k 04:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * According the Maryland Manual (a guide to information about state agencies from the Maryland State Archives), the University of Maryland, Baltimore went through these names:
 * College of Medicine of Maryland (1807-12)
 * University of Maryland (1812-c.1970)
 * University of Maryland at Baltimore (1970-88)
 * University of Maryland System, University of Maryland at Baltimore (1988-97)
 * University System of Maryland, University of Maryland, Baltimore (1997-Current)
 * And UMES went through these names:
 * Centenary Bible Institute, Delaware Conference Academy for Negroes (1886-90)
 * Morgan College, Princess Anne Academy (1890-1919)
 * University of Maryland, Princess Anne Academy (1919-48)
 * University of Maryland, Maryland State College (1948-70)
 * University of Maryland Eastern Shore (1970-88)
 * University of Maryland System, University of Maryland Eastern Shore (1988-97)
 * University System of Maryland, University of Maryland Eastern Shore (1997-Current)
 * Finally, here's the evolutionary structure of UMCP:
 * Maryland Agricultural College (1856-1916)
 * Maryland State College of Agriculture (1916-20)
 * University of Maryland (1920-70)
 * University of Maryland College Park (1970-88)
 * University of Maryland System, University of Maryland College Park (1988-97)
 * University System of Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park (1997-Current)
 * As you can see, UMB started using the name University of Maryland in 1812 and ad UMES started using the University of Maryland name (University of Maryland, Princess Anne Academy) in 1919. UMCP started in 1920.


 * Since I am on the topic, it is mildly interesting to note that UMES was, at one point, a division of what is now Morgan State University, and there are some artifacts surrounding the name switch from University of Maryland System to University System of Maryland. Finally, while universities can often seem more stable than governments (Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, William & Mary, &c), they often go through a lot of flux.  -Howardjp 12:26, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, that's interesting, Howard. (You might put this information to use by adding it to the University of Maryland, Baltimore, which doesn't have it.) john k 14:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Results
Cool, a tie. What now? :) -Howardjp 18:51, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * long answer: well, a tie is about as unambiguosly no consensus as you can get. In most situations, no consensus = the status quo holds - i.e. no change. Not uncommonly after a stuitable amount of time has past for things to become clearer one way or another (or someone who believes there should be change on the issue gets bored of waiting).
 * short answer: nothing :) Thryduulf 01:47, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Second Issue: Proposed Policy on the Usage of Long vs. Short Names
In addition to the "University of Maryland", many other American public colleges and universities can be known by either short or long names. This portion of the poll is to propose a new subsection under Naming conventions to state a general preference for either short or long University names, if a consensus can be reached.

Proposal
A consensus vote of short indicates that policy should be amended to include


 * ===University & College Names===
 * In many cases, a well-known university may adopt a short form of its name, even though this may create some ambiguity with similarly named schools (e.g. University of Texas (at Austin) vs. University of Texas at Dallas). If the short name is clearly the dominant way of referring to the school, then its usage is preferred on Wikipedia even though this may create ambiguities in some cases.  Editors are encouraged to add disambiguation directions at the top of such pages in order to connect users with similarly named insititutions.

Examples of pages that may be affected by the creation of such a policy include:
 * University of Massachusetts Amherst --> University of Massachusetts;
 * University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign --> University of Illinois;
 * University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill --> University of North Carolina;
 * University of Texas at Austin --> University of Texas

A consensus vote of long indicates that policy should be amended to include


 * ===University & College Names===
 * In many cases, a well-known university may adopt a short form of its name, even though this may create some ambiguity with similarly named schools (e.g. University of Texas (at Austin) vs. University of Texas at Dallas). In such cases, Wikipedia prefers that the insititution's full name (e.g. "University of Texas at Austin") be used in most cases where the possibility of ambiguity exists, even though many users may be unfamiliar with the long form of the name.  The short name (e.g. "University of Texas") should be reserved for either a disambiguation page or a page dedicated to the organization governing the related universities.

Examples of pages that may be affected by the creation of such a policy include:
 * University of South Carolina --> University of South Carolina Columbia
 * University of Tennessee --> University of Tennessee at Knoxville
 * University of Arkansas --> University of Arkansas, Fayetteville
 * University of Wisconsin --> University of Wisconsin-Madison

A consensus vote of no change or faliure to reach consensus will result in no change to Wikipedia policy.

Short

 * 1) Short.  In my opinion, policy ought to favor directing the short names to the institution that people are most likely to be looking for.   Dragons flight 17:00, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Short. No reason for universities to be an exception to normal naming policies. john k 17:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Short. - what dragons flight said. ugen 64  03:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No Change

 * 1) I don't think we need or for the matter should have a naming convention that is applied uniformly to any university in the world. Many times, questions of naming are complicated. (For example, what if there are many official or legal names?)
 * 2) * Unsigned vote is User:TakuyaMurata. Dragons flight 18:22, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) No change. I am against adding anything to the naming policy. There are a few factors which go into determining the "proper name" for an article, and this policy proposal is too inflexible. I agree that University of Maryland should be the correct name for the College Park campus. However, I'm positive that University of Massachusetts Amherst is the correct name for that school. When people say "University of Massachusetts", they are frequently referring to the system as a whole, which has several other campuses. These decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis. Rhobite 18:23, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) no change. As is pointed out above, different institutions have different conventions, so why try to set a standard for wp when none exists in the real world? Thryduulf 19:06, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) No change As was pointed out above, no such convention exists in the real world, each university has a different convention.  Calling the University of Virginia the University of Virginia at Charlottesville would be inaccurate, just as calling the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign simply the University of Illinois would be inaccurate.  Continue to simply use the official names as encyclopedia entry titles as befits an encyclopedia. Agriculture 22:00, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) No change. I concur with the explanations given above.  For example, the University of California campuses are too far confused in their branding to establish what is the best name to use (University of California, Berkeley, UC Berkeley, or UCB?), so we should remain with the current default (the long name).  But practically no one uses the full names of the California State University institutions simply because they are too long---no one actually says out loud the full legal name of the school better known as Cal Poly Pomona.  So I think this is an ad hoc thing that has to be dealt with on a school-by-school basis under the current WP identity policies.  --Coolcaesar 23:58, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) No change. Official legal names are usually best so as to avoid confusion and as others have said, short names are often inaccurate. However, I believe that sometimes, as in the above University of Maryland case, a short name is appropriate. Josh 04:27, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) No change. Long names are best, obviously. Just look at the California examples. - Gauge 04:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) No change. This sort of thing should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Looking at the discussion for this particular controversy I can see that there are some good points. However, that's not a good argument to change the name of University of California, Berkeley or University of Texas at Austin to shorter names. --Grouse 22:45, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 10) No Change, needs to be on a case by case basis. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 20:29, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comments
I support Naming conventions (identity), which currently recommends that groups should be named by the terms with which they self-identify. This would support "University of Maryland" and "University of Massachusetts Amherst". It does need to be weighed with the common names policy, which recommends that common names should be used over formal ones. I believe "University of Massachusetts Amherst" is used commonly enough to support that name for the article, but one could argue for "UMass Amherst" or even "UMass". Still, I support the status quo and I feel that these disputes should be worked out individually. Also, please remember that "short names" are already used for many schools, such as University of Florida. Rhobite 18:40, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that the proposal to use short names is meant to only apply where the short name is the "dominant" way that the university is referenced, and is intended to address the question of what to do when that short form is inherently ambiguous with similarly named institutions. Dragons flight 20:12, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, as Dragonsflight says, this is not to apply in cases where the short name is not the most common name. For instance, Berkeley is clearly not best known as the "University of California," so it should not be moved. I'm not sure about UMass - I've always heard it as "UMass," which would suggest an article title of "University of Massachusetts." Additionally - the Naming conventions (identity) seems like a stretch to apply to this instance. It is about the way people identify their ethnic or racial or sexual identities, not about what institutions call themselves. In its current form, I don't see that it should be applied to this situation. john k 22:20, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Who determines what is the "dominant" way? Students at the University of Virginia don't ever call it the University of Virginia. The "dominant" form is more usually "The University" or "Virginia", neither of which are appropriate for this encyclopedia. John Kenny above says that he most often hears the University of Massachusetts at Amherst as UMass, in the academic circles I am associated with, it is more often called "Amherst". This is all very subjective and POV, and as such inappropriate for Wikipedia. Agriculture 22:34, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * When people say "Amherst" they are typically referring to Amherst College, not UMass Amherst. Rhobite 22:43, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Not in most circles they aren't. Amherst College is an unknown, UMass at Amherst is a well respected research institution.  However you help make my point, all of this non-official name garbage is POV.  If you live in Amherst, you've heard of Amherst College, other places haven't and so use the term for UMass at Amherst.  Kind of like how UIUC is often called "Urbana", and UW-Madison is often just called "Madison".  This sort of reference is very common in academic and research circles. Agriculture 22:54, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Never having been to MA and without any connections to either institution, when I hear Amherst in the context of higher ed, I think of Amherst College. It would have to be an extremely narrow context for people to identify the unmodified "Amherst" as UMass. UIUC is not very commonly referred to simply as Urbana (and again probably only in very narrow contexts). Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim that it is "very common in academic and research circles" to refer to these places solely by the place name? older &ne; wiser 23:36, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it would have to be an extremely narrow context to identify Amherst as UMass. Amherst College is a small unknown college of 1,600.  UMass at Amherst is a well known prestigious University.  As for my "evidence" I can only say talk to researchers in my field (Computer Science).  Either way I stress again my point and my vote is not to have this silly naming convention and go by the official names as it is all context sensative and very POV. Agriculture 23:46, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Just to add the West Coast view: I've heard of both institutions. When I hear "Amherst," I think of Amherst College first.  Most people I know from UMass at Amherst usually say that (in full) to make it clear they went to the public institution famous for its riots, not the small peaceful private one. --Coolcaesar 23:52, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * This is pointless and off-topic, but I have to clarify here. I'm a student at UMass Amherst. First-off, nobody on campus calls the school Amherst. That means Amherst College (AC), period. Outside of some research fields, most people in the US who say "Amherst" are referring to AC. Amherst College may be unknown to you Agriculture, but it consistently tops lists of the most prestigious liberal arts colleges nationwide. Amherst College is famous. That said, it is possible that people in some research fields such as Computer Science may say "Amherst" when they're referring to UMass. UMass has a very well-known CompSci department, so CompSci researchers may call it "Amherst". This usage is incorrect. Let's end this discussion please, because it doesn't have much to do with the vote. Rhobite 00:02, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * I had a long statement about Amherst, but others have already said it while I was writing. As to UVA, as an alumnus, I can tell you that if somebody asked me where I went to school, I usually say "the University of Virginia" or "UVA".  I never say "the University," because that is absurd and pretentious (and, in terms of an article name, insanely ambiguous).  I sometimes say "Virginia," but that usually requires further clarification (and again, this doesn't work as an article name, either, because the principal usage of "Virginia" is for the state, not the school).  At any rate, neither of those names is unambiguous. In formal contexts, "University of Virginia" is clearly the most commonly used name, as well as being the official name.  On the other hand University of North Carolina is frequently used in news articles without modifier, and in such instances always refers to the school in Chapel Hill, and not to that in Charlotte or that in Greensboro or that in Wilmington or that in Asheville or that in Pembroke. To compare use of "University of North Carolina" at UNC-Chapel Hill to use of "the University" at UVA is ridiculous. john k 00:07, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To everyone voting "no change," I understand the idea - we shouldn't change the common name policy just for this case. In my view, though, I see the "short name" proposal as merely a clarification of existing policy to a complicated situation, not as an entirely new policy. The current policies wikipedia has are to "use common names" - that is, to use the most recognized name for article titles - and to "disambiguate" - that is, to make sure that when one name can refer to multiple things, we avoid confusion as much as possible in the article titles. The "short name" proposal is simply an attempt to reconcile these two positions into some form that gives a bit more guidance in this particular case. While some of the examples Dragonsflight gave may be not apropos - we've clearly had some debate over the UMass case - this proposal is not to move all articles on flagship universities to University of State. It merely states that when the school is best known by the shorter version of the name, the article should be there, even if this can be ambiguous. This is a fairly simple elaboration of the way article titling normally works. Despite the fact that they are ambiguous, London is at London, Paris at Paris, and so on and so forth.

The basic issue is that a lot of articles on universities are at full names in spite of the current conventions. I, at least (I can't speak for DF), was hoping that this vote might provide a sort of general justification for moving clear instances of this. john k 17:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Many of us also believe that self-identification should be considered, and this proposed policy change goes against that principle. Rhobite 23:29, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Rhobite - fair enough, in a narrow sense, and I wasn't necessarily addressing you specifically (nobody else has made that claim). However, you have not addressed my response to your initial mention of Naming conventions (identity), in which I noted that the page, as presently written, simply does not support the reading you are putting on that policy. That page is clearly related to naming conventions for ethnic/religious/sexual identity groups, and not to what institutions call themselves. The question of what, say, the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign calls itself seems rather up in the air, in any event. Yes, the webpage says the full name, and, indeed, the "University of Illinois" is a gateway website to the three member schools. On the other hand, the "University of Illinois" part of the UIUC website is much bigger than the "Urbana-Champaign" part, in direct context to UIC, where it is "UIC" that is written big. The school in Urbana is called "Illinois" in second and later references, as opposed to "UIC" for the University of Illinois Chicago. The whole situation is messy, and even if we had a policy that institutions need to be described by how they call themselves (which we clearly don't have, given the numerous cases of institutions called by unofficial names), it would be very tricky to apply to these particular schools. john k 01:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)