Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Lir/Evidence

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please choose an appropriate header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Please do this under a seperate header, to seperate your response from the original evidence.

Be aware that the arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent.

General evidence
As a show of the necessary procedures for resolving these disputes in a proper fashion, Lir respondes to each incident in kind, at: Requests for arbitration/Lir/Evidence/Defense

Lir is regularly hostile and difficult in discussions, rejecting all attempts at consensus or discussion &#8211; examples of this can be found on Talk:Saddam Hussein, in which he has continued to insist on an article insertion despite clear consensus against it, as in -, , , (In which he implicitly admits to edit warring),  (In which he rejects a compromise of a footer mention of his concern, because he wants it to be publicly noticed, as he explicitly states at ), , , , , and , in which he explicitly refuses to avoid edit conflicts.

Another Lir conflict can be found on (an old version of Talk:DNA, as seen at, , and , where he insists on a particularly cumbersome method of dispute resolution, to the objection of most of the participants on the talk page. There are other edits to this talk page consistent with the behavior discussed here found at , , , , , , , and.

Yet another can be found on Talk:List of academic disciplines), in which Lir attempts to insist that disciplines that are not considered "academic" by any normal usage of the term be included, as in, , , and . (Note that User:Pizza Puzzle is another version of Lir, as evidenced by the linking to of his talk archives on User Talk:Lir.)

Furthermore, Lir was involved in supporting irismeister and Mr. Natural Health&#8217;s edit wars on Iridology, as seen at, specifically , , , , , , , , ,. ,, and. Note also, which is an archive of a VfD page in which, in addition to abusive comments towards User:Theresa knott, Lir voted on behalf of User:Irismeister while Irismeister was banned.

Lir was also responsible for the sockpuppet account User:Editing Saddam Hussein, which has been confirmed as coming from the same Qwest ISP and location that Lir uses to connect, has an affiliation with User:Plato/red faction, as Lir does, and has been used to make the same edits to Saddam Hussein as Lir has been making. Lir also continues to deny that the account was him, in the face of the clear evidence to the contrary. The vote in the RfA was abusive, as can be seen at. Furthermore, Editing Saddam Hussein was used to violate the three revert rule on Saddam Hussein, as seen in, , , , and. Note that some of these edits were from the IP address 63.230.159.235, which, as seen in his vote in the RfA, is the same user. He has continued this edit war with his User:Lir account as shown above.

Lir&#8217;s behavior in #wikipedia has been even more problematic, making statements like:


 * Lir: RickK is a sockpuppet
 * Lir: and Snowspinner is a lap dog
 * Lir: *arfarf*

and


 * Lir: ill fight rick if i ever meet him in real life

All of which appear to be personal attacks, and seem to be attempts to carry out aggressive behavior off of the Wikipedia proper so as to make his personal attacks without actually being blockable under Wikipedia guidelines. On a more minor note, Lir committed what appears to be an act of vandalism on User:Little Tin God Sysop when he created a userpage for this user that consisted only of &#8220;wtf,&#8221; as shown at, and has sought to, in the words of User:Plato on IRC, "ruin" users by nominating them for sysop status, as in this IRC snippet from Red Faction&#8217;s IRC channel, #RF.wikipedia:


 * Comrade_Nick: lir wanted to ruin you
 * Snowspinner: I imagine he still does. I think he'd have a tough time of it.
 * Comrade_Nick: he wanted to nomate you so no one will vote for you

All of this is compounded by Lir&#8217;s clear desire to disrupt the current function of Wikipedia, due to its supposedly being run by a "cabal," and due to its being, in his own words, "uberghey." He has made endorsements of trolling, such as his statement at that "Trolling is not a valid reason to oppose sysophood." While it is entirely possible that this is not an endorsement of trolling, it's not plausible.

The latest instance of this attempted disruption is shown by Sysop Accountability Policy, particularly in its original form, in which he suggests that the only two possible positions to take are that sysops who have blocked him in the past be desysopped, or that &#8220;Sysops are an elite cabal. They are above the law."

Note also that Lir has been previously banned, as in the message board thread. Among the reasons for this ban, as expressed in these posts ( and ), were excessive use of pseudonyms. Note that, since his return, Lir has used User:Editing Saddam Hussein, as well as User:Ril, in violation of Jimbo&#8217;s concerns in. Specifically, his conduct with the Editing Saddam Hussein username seems to violate Jimbo&#8217;s concern about when &#8220;someone takes on multiple identities in order to play games.&#8221; Other accounts that may well be sockpuppets of Lir include User:Little Tin God Sysop, User:Sad Ham, User:Random IRC quote, and User:IRC channels are private, though, of course, without IP evidence it's impossible to tell. (I would welcome sysop checks on all of these, of course, so that we can get a firmer list of Lir's sockpuppetry. If any of these are shown to be sockpuppets, I'll happily supply the evidence of their problem edits as well).

Other users have also claimed that Lir has attempted to encourage them to commit vandalism, as in this exchange from IRC:


 * Comrade_Nick: adam (lir) wanted me to vandalize your page guanaco when you banned his editing saddam hussein account
 * Comrade_Nick: he wanted me to repalace you bottle fed lamb with cock fed lamb...

On July 6, 2004, Lir vandalized a subpage of User:Tim Starling to try to remove evidence Tim had collected for the arbitration committee - see.

On July 4, 2004, when User:TheCustomOfLife let User:Theresa knott know that I was working on the request for arbitration, Lir posted an abusive message to her talk page:. Snowspinner 01:04, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually lir's abusive message to me was because I had said the wording of the Sysop Accountability Policy was  "stupid". It was IMO a typical Lir comment to me, she can be a bit childish at times. Note that it was not an attempt to intimidate me into not providing evidence for Snowspinner's request. theresa knott 21:29, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Known Lir Sockpuppet Accounts
Tim Starling has confirmed these as being accounts Lir has used - note that many of these were used in the past few months, showing that Lir has not been keeping to one user account as Jimbo and other users stated he ought following his prior banning. Dates indicate last edit.


 * Lir
 * Krieger - Jan 19 2003
 * Dietary Fiber - Apr 13 2003
 * Entente - no edits
 * Peter Chamberlain - Apr 17 2003
 * Terry Gander - Apr 18 2003
 * Juan Hernandez
 * Iesuf Taitsevski
 * Shino Baku
 * Like a Virgin
 * Old Timer
 * Apocalypse
 * Qwert
 * Bridget
 * Pizza Puzzle
 * XbeenX
 * Tomer621
 * Mnbvcxz
 * Tothof
 * Marshall621
 * Juanwillis
 * Gfdsa
 * Tisi
 * Willy r - 26 May 2004
 * Gtru e - 26 May 2004
 * Tornito
 * Torinor - 27 May 2004
 * Yoliju - 27 May 2004
 * Raimunr - 28 May 2004
 * Editing Saddam Hussein
 * Editing Saddam Hussein1
 * Still Editing Saddam Hussein1
 * Willert - never

Note that Lir disputes the accuracy of this list, claiming that it is coincidence that these users have the same passwords. Snowspinner 01:04, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

It is. Lirath Q. Pynnor


 * Lir has listed the following accounts when asked which of the above were her:

* Lir's Accounts **One Password *** Krieger *** Dietary Fiber *** Peter Chamberlain *** Terry Gander *** Juan Hernandez *** Shino Baku *** Like a Virgin *** Qwert *** Pizza Puzzle *** Gfdsa **Other Passwords ***Lir ***Vera Cruz ***Susan Mason ***Some Others I'm Sure **Lirath Q. Pynnor


 * see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lir. (information added by sannse (talk) 07:31, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC))

RfC page
Requests for comment/Lir


 * Which is good stuff. :) Martin 22:34, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Frivolous nominations
The following nomination was posted on Requests for adminship, and in response the following poll was begun : V V   21:39, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:IndigoGenius (0/25/0) Ends July 18, 3:00 UTC)
An expert on the 5th world, this user should have been an admin a year ago! Lirath Q. Pynnor
 * I accept this nomination. And I would like to point out that I'm an authentic Fifth World expert, and an expert on parallel Internets too!


 * Let me also add that people that are not involved at all in the micronational community are editing articles here, and if you wish to depend on them for your information on micronationalism you risk not knowing anything at all about the phenomenon. I'm also a micronational expert, and thus qualified to give decent and unbiased opinions about the subject. I don't put my nation ahead while putting my foot on others, unlike the people vandalising my articles. Please consider also this with your vote.--IndigoGenius 15:46, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

People who request disciplinary action against nominator:
 * 1) Neutrality 03:44, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * 2) Rick'''K 04:45, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * RickK maintains a micronation on stilts and should lose Admin privileges for typing while intoxicated. --IndigoGenius 12:53, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what this means, or what a micronation on stilts is. I voted to delete Empire of Atlanteum when it came up on VfD, and believe that it isn't worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia.  I'm anti both sides of this argument.  Rick'''K 19:58, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) UtherSRG 17:37, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) - Let's not feed the trolls... let's get rid of them.
 * 2) Graham  &#9786; | Talk 18:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) though I understand there is no precedent for this action yet
 * 3) Cribcage 18:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * 4) Lst27 21:14, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actions as Editing Saddam Hussein
While using his Editing Saddam Hussein account (Or, rather, his Edditing Saddam Hussein1 account), Lir posted a complaint on requests for review of administrative actions. The final form of that request for review can be found at (And is probably of interest to the Guanaco case as well). The relevent portion, however, aside from the block evasion being shown, is the link Fennec gave to an IRC log in which Lir spammed and flooded the channel. The link, for ease of reference is. Note also Lir's demand that people "not talk to him" on the request for review - a both hostile and ludicrous demand on a page such as that.

Finally, while we're on Requests for Review of Administrative Actions, the edit at is an instructive case of vandalism as Lir took a page that had been a redirect for several days and attempted to resurrect it in his case against Guanaco. (Note that it's not as though procedure for review of administrative actions had been removed. It got moved to RfC instead of its own page.) Snowspinner 13:11, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't call that edit vandalism, myself, though it may have been in bad faith and/or detrimental to Wikipedia. Martin 13:27, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The IRC log doesn't wrap correctly on my (windows) PC. However, I don't think it's particularly relevant: it's an IRC offence, and I understand that Lir has been banned from #wikipedia. It is evidence of pettiness and such. Martin


 * Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming now has the collected discussion of Saddam Hussein's name. Worthy of note that the dispute pre-dates Lir's involvement. Also worthy of note is that Lir accepted a compromise that was proposed - though he rejected others. Martin

Further Personal Attacks
Lir's personal attacks have continued -. Snowspinner 22:05, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Lir's nomination at WP:RFA
Lir has been miraculously nominated by a user with... what, two edits? and has accepted such nomination. - Fennec (&#12399;&#12373;&#12400;&#12367;&#12398;&#12365;&#12388;&#12397;) 04:08, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)