Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Digwuren

Digwuren





 * D:
 * Articles for deletion/Republic of Estonia (1990-1991)
 * Articles for deletion/Estonian SSR (independent)


 * E:
 * Congress of Estonia
 * 12:39, 26 May 2007
 * 15:35, 26 May 2007
 * 15:50, 26 May 2007
 * 17:08, 26 May 2007

All these users seem to be somehow related to the University of Tartu. They have co-operated in AfD discussions and revert wars. User:Digwuren has systematically reverted all my Estonia related edits for the past three weeks, often in only two minutes. He has received help in avoiding the 3RR from User:Alexia Death, User:3 Löwi and User:Klamber.

User:Digwuren and User:Alexia Death correspond to distinct Internet personalities. They however seem to be coordinating their edits off-line, and possibly editing from the same IP-address. If they are not sockpuppets, they are most likely meatpuppets. They only started editing after the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn controversy and seem to be single-purpouse accounts. Their intent seems to rewrite the History of Estonia, deleting points-of-view that they consider "Soviet occupation denialism" or otherwise symphathetic to Russians in Estonia. -- Petri Krohn 17:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Restored initial objections dishonestly swept under rug by guess who? Digwuren 06:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You are not a checkuser clerk, please do not use indicators reserved for clerks, or try to pretend you are one. -- Petri Krohn 16:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break
Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX --Ghirla-трёп- 21:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel it necessary to point out that Petri Krohn has been throwing out wild accusations at me for quite a while, starting from (and growing through ) through  and finally,, not to mention "nice" edit summaries such as , ,.


 * The contention of "somehow related to the University of Tartu" is ridiculous. The University is the largest university in Estonia and a major provider of network services; of *course* most educated people, as well as a number of people caring of network connection, would be "somehow related" to it!


 * In conclusion, what Petri Krohn has done here is taking a number of people he doesn't like (and for bad reasons I will not enter here, using the last drops of what has remained of my belief into his good faith), throwing wild generalisations at them in the hope that *something will stick*, and then applied for the checkuser procedure as a form of harassment. Digwuren 19:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I find accusations of being someones meatpuppet offensive. I haven't been a registered user on wikipedia for long and became active mostly because of the recent controversies. Thus I am interested in articles that overlap Digwurens and are concerning history and present of Estonia. We live in the same country so our views are likely to be similar. However I am very sure that our IP-s don't overlap. I post from two locations and both have pretty much static IP-s. --Alexia Death 20:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I also find offensive the accusations of trying to somehow remove anything sympathetic to Russians in Estonia. I work with Russians living in Estonia daily and find most them to be nice people. Mind backing those claims up with some links?--Alexia Death 21:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * TO Petri Krohn: “Uinuv mõistus sünnitab koletisi”; TO the watchful eye of Ghirlandaio: my thought would be lost in translation E.J. 07:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. As far as I know, all these users are separate persons - and I seriously doubt they are coordinating their edits off-line. There are two reasons for similarities in their edits - one is that all of them are from Estonia (and I think, also ethnic Estonians), second is Petri Krohn himself - slapping on various tags without any explanations on resp. talk pages, controversial unsourced edits, claiming that article in a peer-reviewed magazine (Nordic Journal of International Law) is "an extremely biased Estonian source" and treating any other (WP valid) published source in the same way if it doesn't fit his views. Repeated uncivil edit comments, inability to accept facts and creating controversial badly (if at all) cited articles (I am more then willing to give evidence for all of those claims, if that is asked). All users named by him have been forced to contradict him at some point, so it seems that he is trying to stop those users - after all, because he is always right, half a dozen users who do not agree with him must be sockpuppets and meatpuppets. DLX 09:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break
✅. Alexia Death = Erik Jesse = 3 Löwi = Klamber. that this is Digwuren too.  Voice -of- All  05:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Modifyied after double checking (scroll down).  Voice -of- All  15:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As a participant I demand to know what are the grounds to this claim, as it is clearly INCORRECT.--Alexia Death 06:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S : Ive notified users 3 Löwi and Klamber of this result, I fail to contact Erik Jesse because I have opted not to send and recive mail trough wikipedia.--Alexia Death 06:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S.S: Ive posted from two IP-s, one ending in .111, thats my home, and the other ending in .202, thats what Im posting from now, at work. Its a big place so I cant be 100% sure theres not another poster within same walls but I SERIOUSLY doubt it.--Alexia Death 06:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, there are some fundamental flaws in the checkuser mechanism for the context of Estonia. If it, for example, would consider all of Estonia's IP space a "single dynamic pool", or assign undue weight to common web proxies such as cache.ut.ee or cache.elion.ee, it would be bound to think there are at most one, or perhaps two, people in Estonia.


 * As an aside, Alexia Death is female. The rest of the list are, AFAIK, all male.  (I am not entirely sure of 3 Löwi's gender thus far.)


 * I am entirely sure that all of these people are distinct. Digwuren 06:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I read the articles on checkuser, and it seems I considered it more automated than it really was. Apparently, a not inconsiderable amount of operator discretion goes into the decisions.  Hence, I join in Alexia Death's demands to know what the evidence was and how it was interpreted.
 * If I'm suspected as the puppeteer, does it mean I am allowed to make this demand on behalf of Erik Jesse, 3 Löwi and Klamber, too? :-) Digwuren 07:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have presented a request to David Gerard and Raul654 to review this checkuser. Digwuren 08:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am second Digwuren's request to double-check the checkuser report. A number of people have expressed doubt in it Alex Bakharev 13:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I also ask for a double-check. However I also ask that be included. He was earlier checked against Digwuren but was not confermed. (See: Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX) -- Petri Krohn 14:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can vouch for 3 Löwi who I have observed editing since July 2005, so it is absurd that he is a sock puppet of Alexia Death who has been here since May 2007. Also Erik Jesse hasn't been as involved to any degree compared with the other's, so I am surprised he is caught up in this. A check of their respective logs will confirm this Martintg 12:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I fell uncomfortable in revealing users personal details; this is starting to be cyberstalking. Besides, there is nothing wrong in asking your friends to contribute to Wikipedia.
 * This is what I believe:
 * User:Digwuren, User:Alexia Death and User:Erik Jesse are real people. They are all current or former students of the University of Tartu, and all still live in in Tartu.
 * Two of them have been succesfull at the Estonia student "olympics".
 * Two of them started studies around 1998.
 * One of them majored in information technology, another is also an expert in this field.
 * Digwuren and Alexia correspond to real internet persona. They both run web servers on their own registered domains. Their real names are listed in the whois data.
 * I do not think these three are real sockpuppets. I find it likely that they are meatpuppets. It is possible that they coordinate their activities off-line. It is possible that they contribute from the same network, possible from free WLAN access points in Tartu. (Estonia has many of these, see wifi.ee). -- Petri Krohn 14:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Aha. You knew all that, and yet you saw it fit to throw out wild accusations -- which you knew were invalid --, and cause a lot of trouble to other editors.  What we have here, I think, is a clear-cut case of harassment.  The motives are not hard to find, either. Digwuren 15:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please back your accusations with something. I have no idea what others do, but I know that I have not discussed anything with any others outside WP - and even here we have kept our discussions strictly in English. There is no need to "coordinate" anything, especially in cases such as Estland, where it is obvious that article is bad, unsourced and offtopic. DLX 15:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I have also finished University of Tartu, been successful at the Estonia student "olympics" and run web server with my own registered domain. DLX 15:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've ran this again more intensively. 3 Löwi = Klamber, which seems to be DLX. The others are on the same ISP, but its records only give the location of the ISP's office itself, which is useless when checking specific IPs. Checks of other evidence (which per WP:BEANS I can't get into) suggest that the others are at different places. Given that, it is best to consider the others as  at best. They may be "meatpuppets", but editing patterns will best determine that.  Voice -of- All  15:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you resolve the IP's as well? Like it has been said, big portions of Estonia are behind few web proxies - and the name should be very obvious (cache.elion.ee(about 1/3 of Estonia, including myself), cache.ut.ee (whole University of Tartu, 15000+ users)). Could we see that evidence, too? Because I am not sockpuppet, meatpuppet or clone - and I find even accusations of that insulting. DLX 15:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Even this "more intensive" run is not believable. 3 Löwi and DLX have too long and too varying histories for that, and both are also active on Estonian Wikipedia.  Klamber differs from them at least by personality.
 * So: what's the evidence? Digwuren 15:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sigh...I am not going to just release IP and other data as that violates the privacy policy.  Voice -of- All  15:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Under the privacy policy, the people involved have a power to waive privacy requirements, and permit releasing data involving them. I believe DLX has already done that.  Who else will need to issue waivers? Digwuren 16:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, with the new evidence VoA unbocked Alexia Death and I have unblocked Eric. I have changed the block duration for 3 Löwi from indefinite to 1 week (lets assume he is the main account). I intend to keep Klamber blocked unless the checkuser evidence is changed again. I do not feel comfortable with blocking DXL myself, can somebody else look in the matter? If he is a sock he should be blocked, if there are doubts let him off the hook Alex Bakharev 15:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I'd hold off any blocks unless there is serious disruption that flares up. The way this ISP is set up makes it hard to tell people apart, as a lot of locations would show as the same. The other checkuser data does show exact matches for the three "confirmed" above.  Voice -of- All  15:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This "exact match" perhaps being a particular Iceweasel version from the latest stable Debian release? Digwuren 16:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * An alternative explanation I can suggest is that the users belong into a same chunk of IP addresses for whois purposes. Digwuren 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur that and  are probably the same user, even with an allowance for the arcane setup of Estonia's infrastructure. I invite an explanation, but the same pattern of edits combined with the same IP history, and the lack of other users on the same ranges, leaves little doubt in my mind. Mackensen (talk) 16:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yesterday, Klamber made an edit into Mahtra War only six minutes after 3 Löwi had committed his edit to Freikorps in the Baltic. I do not see this as fitting "same pattern of edits".  Even if exactly same IP address was involved, it's more likely this is some sort of NAT cooperative; there are dozens of this kind of entities in bigger Estonian cities, especially where students are concerned concentrated. Digwuren 16:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's more than IP numbers - David Gerard 17:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * DLX is not anonymous. His real name is right there on his home page. The same name is is the register of his private pri.ee domain. He is however an information technology major (Software engineer) from the University of Tartu. I do not know if he went to the same lectures with the others; seems that he already started his studies in 1994, and recently only did Ph.D. work. -- Petri Krohn 16:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry to rain on your conspiracy theory, but I am not "an information technology major (Software engineer) from the University of Tartu". I finished university in biology, got my MSc in zoology and started to make my PhD in special zoology/evolutionary ecology - which I didn't finish, as I started to work as a programmer (I still plan to finish it one day). This is my only published article in a peer-reviewed scientific magazine so far, but I hope to return to biological sciences some day. DLX 06:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I graduated from that school. Its a big school and most of Estonias university educated people have gone there at some point. This does not mean we all know each other. Estonia is small, but not that small. And FYI I don't live in Tartu, I do live in the County tho. I give any admin permission to confirm that IP-addresses for me and Digwurren differ, so you would get off this delusion, that we share an AP... Oh. And you know all this and you STILL set this up? What for? --Alexia Death 16:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of you have studied information technology at this university at the same time. There is also the Tallinn University of Technology in Tallinn, with an IT department in Haapsalu. Not all educated Estonians share this much in common. In fact, most of you seem to belong to a population of a few hundred people. I doubt very much that you do not know each other in real life. -- Petri Krohn 17:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * TO: Petri Krohn. Your accusations of meat puppetry or suggestions that our votes should be counted as one look rather hypocritical IMHO, if we take into consideration the methods that the supporters of your line used for ensuring the deletion vote here. Apologies for moralizing: you see, I have just arrived back from Ethics' exam (an occasion which I also took advantage of to plot further with Digwuren, 3 Löwi, Klamber, Alexia Death and all the other Estonian users) E.J. 15:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * City of Tartu has near 100000 residents. The university campus in the City has MANY buildings. It is taught in two departments, in Math department for software and and Physics department for hardware. I graduated from hardware branch. They have separate buildings with only a few joint lectures. Students of different years hardly mix. I may have sat a same class with someone at some point but I'm not sure about it since I do not and did not know them. This delusion is becoming tiresome. --Alexia Death 18:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OH, and about that few hundred... more than a hundred people graduated with me from my department alone from University of Tartu . I knew two well enough to know their names...--Alexia Death 19:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My dear Petri, for understanding problems with some of your edits at Estonia related articles(although I do not deny that you are also quite productive sometimes) it is not neccessary to study at that famous, or in current context maybe I should say "infamous", University of Tartu ;) --Staberinde 18:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Just looking at this. I can't nail a link with any of the first three and anyone else based on CheckUser. 3 Löwi appears likely to be Klamber if the edit patterns do match. Not a few of the people named here have been using open proxies, which has been most useful in closing those thank you. Even a notable similarity of interest is not sockpuppetry, sometimes people just agree in ways others find obnoxious. We apologise for any possible failure of the checkuser magic pixie dust to resolve everything without effort - David Gerard 17:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Presuming it's hard to prove that and  are distinct, what is evidence of abuse committed by this supposed sockpuppetry?  Notably, mere charge of sock puppetry, even if proven, is not grounds for blocking the editors in question under WP:SOCK. Digwuren 09:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Most illustratively from, it seems likely that 3 Löwi and Klamber are distinct people working nearby; perhaps using a shared computer at Asper Biotech. After all, why would a sockpuppeteer revert his own edits?  (Note that the reversals took place in February, long before This Saga Here.) Digwuren 08:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 15:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This whole request has to go somewhere; since the pending checkuser business seems to be resolved, for the moment, I'm moving it to the completed section. Further discussion may be directed to the admin noticeboard, if needed, though additional checkuser requests (if any) should go here. – Luna Santin  (talk) 07:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)