Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Gill Giller Gillerger


 * The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.  

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 05:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).


 * other sock accounts
 * other sock accounts
 * other sock accounts
 * other sock accounts

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute
''This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.''

Desired outcome
''This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.''

Mgillfr becomes cooperative with other users.

Description
''{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}''

Mgillfr repeatedly edit wars and reverts to his own interpretation of ELG and of the CASH / USRD standards, regardless of what they actually are, and if his interpretation goes against FAC.

A bit of background on this user: He is User:AL2TB. This user has had a history of abandoning accounts when facing criticism and starting new ones. Eventually he was indefinitely blocked and we started to block his sockpuppets. Therefore, he opened Mgillfr, and to avoid being immediately blocked, he said he would be more cooperative when he opened his current account (see below); but today he is the same old AL2TB. He has also had a history of harassment on my behalf (see User:Rschen and ).

Evidence of disputed behavior
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

There are several of these such edit wars: here are a few. Others can be provided upon request.
 * Requests_for_checkuser/Case/AL2TB - the sockpuppetry information
 * revert war in general
 * revert war in general, where he breaks 3RR 3 times
 * Changing the guideline to suit his own edits without consensus
 * He said he would be more cooperative...
 * Mgillfr reverts for the _th time to his preferred version of the article, against FAC recommendations (FAC is here for your reference)

Applicable policies and guidelines
{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}
 * WP:3RR
 * WP:CONSENSUS
 * WP:USSH
 * WP:ELG
 * WP:SOCK
 * WP:CIVIL
 * WP:HARASS - in the past

Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
 * User_talk:Mgillfr - not the best - will get more later
 * Explanation as to why we can't use the truck list (his version)
 * The discussion regarding the latest reverting
 * Alerting him about other users' thoughts on his edits
 * - slightly inflammatory comment
 * My several paragraph long reply (includes the next diff)

Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute
(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)
 * Mgillfr reverts to his preferred version, well after the FAC has concluded
 * Mgillfr deletes the comments without reply
 * Because always threatens me with a block. Mgillfr (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}


 * Rschen7754 (T C) 05:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what to do in this case, as Mgillfr has made some positive contributions (especially under previous usernames). To Mgillfr's credit, I believe his past reputation is dogging him and causing Rschen, among others, to take an immediate distrust of anything he does. I would even go to say this immediate distrust and overreaction may have made the situation worse. But the facts as Rschen has presented are correct. Mgillfr has a habit of trashing articles under the guise of "that's what this article does". The the problem is this user is picking stub, start, and C class articles as the "gold standard" and trashing GA's and FA's, rather than picking an FA as the "gold standard" and using that as an example to elevate other articles. While at the same time, this user has declined to participate in discussions where such debate over formats and standards are being discussed. I initially tried to be sympathetic and patient to Mgillfr's predicament, but his latest disruptions are wearing my patience thin.Dave (talk) 15:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I dunno what to really say. I've only started getting involved all of 24 hours ago. However, I have seen this behavior and do certify that he's become a major disruption and cause for trouble in the project. However, see the behavior between him and me (mine wasn't very mature either) on California State Route 186, California State Route 188, California State Route 78, the US Roads Project talk page, and his own talk page for what's happened in the last 24 hours. I do not enjoy the attitude he gives the project and always gets things to his way. I do certify the above though.Mitch/HC32 01:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, you and I never talked to each other. Mgillfr (talk) 03:21, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I protected California State Route 78 and you continued edit warring; thus, I "tried and failed to resolve the dispute". – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 18:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

 * I had an interaction with this editor recently when he redirected Angeles Crest Highway, a 1,000-word long, sourced article, to California State Route 2, which had only a one-paragraph summary. He made no effort to merge in any of the text. When I asked him about it he didn't seem to understand that he'd done anything wrong. My impression is that he was not paying much attention to what he was doing and was simply trying to get rid of extraneous articles that didn't fit into some scheme. Unlike in the cases listed above, he didn't press the point. I hope he'll exhibit that same cooperation in the future, along with preserving information while avoiding order for order's sake.   Will Beback    talk    10:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Response
''This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.'' ''

Yeah I said I would be more cooperative and not use sockpuppet accounts. But I can't be more cooperative with others if and his IPs come back to Wikipedia and bring up evidence of my sockpuppetry by adding sockpuppet tags to my former accounts. He was very persistent. My point is: why should I learn to work with others if 1) I can't maintain consistency in CASH articles, 2) I-10 never had to work with others, and 3) if  is constantly around, mainly since he's largely involved in reverting my edits, constantly threatening me with blocks, and set a series of demands that I do not want to cave into? Mgillfr (talk) 01:48, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

My goal is that I just want things to look the same on CASH. It irriates me when I see one article's format different from the rest. I may have a bit of OCD and I admit that may be the cause of my disruption, especially considering that I once had a lame revert war with a couple of 's IPs on my former account User:Splat5572 at the article Redwood Highway. Basically the lame edit war was that I-10 wanted a space between the shields in the infobox, while I did not support the space between the shields. Since all of CASH has the practice of no spaces between the shields, I decided to keep reverting people in order for CASH to look consistent, even if it means I have to go at it disruptive. I added control cities boxes because the rest of CASH does it. I add county columns to junction lists because most of CASH articles does it. I also contribute to formatting junction lists so that the formats are consistent to each other. Mgillfr (talk) 02:01, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Outside view
''This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.''

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Outside view by Ljthefro
I have not been directly involved with the situation regarding Mgillfr. However, I have been following the developments as discussion of Mgillfr's edits seems to be a constant at WT:USRD lately. The conflict as I see it centers around Mgillfr revising WP:CASH articles using certain styles which have been deprecated--items of note including the use of "Major Cities" boxes and edits to Exit/junction lists. Here's my views on the matter:

When reverting other editor's reverts to his edits or otherwise asked to clarify his edits, Mgillfr often sites "CASH standards" as the basis for his stylistic changes. The problem with his reasoning is that many of the disputed edits that I've seen are not following such CASH standards, because those standards do not exist. WP:USRD, as parent wikiproject to CASH, has fairly detailed article standards for road articles (including adoption of WP:ELG for exit lists), but allows for the state sub-projects to adopt certain style changes. Presently, WP:CASH does not have anything listed that significantly deviates from WP:USRD/STDS, but many CASH articles currently have elements that follow older style standards that need updating. (Admittedly, some guideline pages could probably use updating, but I fully believe Mgillfr is aware of current consensus on these stylistic points.) Mgillfr's edits seem to revert any newer standards applied in favor of older styles simply because the majority of articles are written that way—that is not proper practice. In some cases, Mgillfr has edited against what few standards CASH has defined. For example, he added a Major Cities box to California State Route 14 contrary to the statement "Major cities boxes are being phased out" (under WP:CASH) and then re-added the box after it had been removed by another editor.

However, one of the most problematic issues I see in this conflict is another disregard for something stated at CASH. The first sentence under Structure says "California State Route 78 exemplifies the latest USRD and CASH standards." I was involved in the A-Class review of this article and watched it receive a lot of scrutiny both there and during the FAC review. There were several stylistic changes discussed and implemented through these processes (Mgillfr should be aware of these because he commented in several places on the FAC). Quite shockingly, this very article is the latest in which Mgillfr has chosen to implement older standards, thus causing more disputes and possibly risking its FA status. I am completely and utterly confused as to his rationale, especially since California State Route 78 is currently the only California highway article above GA-class.

I believe that Mgillfr wants to support the CASH project and has good intentions. However, he continues to disregard currently-accepted article standards despite being asked multiple times to stop. His attitudes towards defending his edits indicates an unwillingness to accept standards, and he has not attempted (to my knowledge) to generate discussion and consensus regarding stylistic changes. In conclusion, there's a lot that needs to be done within the CASH project, and I believe Mgillfr's edits have become disruptive towards achieving the ultimate goal of improving the encyclopedia. If he wants to contribute in a positive way, he really needs to learn to follow standards and work with others if he feels standards need changing. --LJ (talk) 20:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:
 * 1) I couldn't have summarized the current issue better myself (even though I tried to). --Rschen7754 (T C) 22:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) I think the last paragraph says it all.Dave (talk) 22:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) I agree completely. Imzadi1979 (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Endorsed -this is completely correct.Mitch/HC32 23:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 23:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) After having read through all of the information, I have to endorse this summary.  --Son (talk) 15:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Outside view by
Users who endorse this summary:

Reminder to use the talk page for discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.