Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Larvatus

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 22:50, December 22, 2005), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).



Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute
''This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.''

Description
User:Larvatus, aka Michael Zeleny, has engaged in a campaign of creating and editing articles to push his allegations that Min Zhu, a technology businessman, committed sex crimes with his daughter, Erin Zhu. When pressed for sources, he gives Usenet links, links to his own LiveJournal or case numbers which relate to civil cases between Zhu, Zhu's company WebEx, and Zeleny. These cases were all settled out of court, and all were filed over business disputes such as fraud, breach of contract, etc. There is absolutely no independent verification available of these allegations, nor have any of these allegations been reported in any reputable and reliable news source. In fact, the only relevant Google hits for "Min Zhu" rape are to Zeleny's own LiveJournal or the Wikipedia pages in question. There is *zero* third-party information available. The user is apparently deeply involved in legal and personal disputes with the Zhu family, and his continued self-promotional insertion of potentially libelous allegations damages the encyclopedia. This is using Wikipedia as a soapbox, something it is not.

The particular text being inserted into Min Zhu is:


 * Min Zhu was driven into an allegedly voluntary exile from the U.S.A. by allegations of incestuous pedophile rape made by his daughter Erin Zhu, and publicized by Michael Zeleny.

And the sources (Usenet post and user's own LiveJournal blog) in question (colorful link text Larvatus'):


 * Erin Zhu's complaints about her rape by her father, attested in public record on Usenet
 * Another complaint by Erin Zhu about her rape by her father, reproduced from public record in Santa Clara superior Court, Case Number CV809286, Zeleny v. Zhu & WebEx
 * Erin Zhu promises that she will not be a monster like her father and complains that he devoured her body with his lust, reproduced from public record in Santa Clara superior Court, Case Number CV809286, Zeleny v. Zhu & WebEx

Evidence of disputed behavior
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
 * Starts the Min Zhu page - "allegedly driven into allegedly voluntary exile from the U.S.A. by allegations of incestuous pedophile rape"
 * Starts the Erin Zhu page, again with extra added allegations.
 * Adds "alleged daughter rapist Min Zhu" to article about venture capital company that funded Zhu's startup.
 * Creates Scott Sandell, an article on a partner in the above venture capital company, and again relates it to "alleged daughter rapist Min Zhu." On the talk page, posts "...Sandell's backing of paedophile Min Zhu..."
 * Creates Subrah Iyar, an article on the co-founder of WebEx, again with sex allegations against Zhu and allegations that Iyar was complicit - "Michael Zeleny has alleged that Subrah Iyar participated in a coverup by WebEx of Min Zhu's child rape."
 * Edited Cover-up to include a reference to the case, with the edit summary "added example of WebEx coverup of child rape by Min Zhu."
 * Refers to Zhu as a "known pedophile" and says he has a history of "forcing his family into serving as his sex partners."
 * See also WebEx - full of unsourced stuff like "By compounding the use of WebEx assets for hush money with employing WebEx corporate counsel to defend himself in the lawsuit and accuse Zeleny of libel, Zhu has confirmed the self-dealing Zeleny alleged."

Applicable policies
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
 * Wikipedia is not a soapbox
 * No original research
 * Verifiability
 * Reliable sources
 * Biographies of living persons (Proposed)

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
(provide diffs and links)
 * Alex ex warns Larvatus on 3 October not to use Wikipedia to seek attention for his allegations.
 * Demi points out that Larvatus is just re-adding the same poorly sourced information; Larvatus inserts again
 * FloNight reminds Larvatus that he has a responsibility to cite verifiable and reliable sources, and suggests that his personal involvement is clouding his judgement.
 * FloNight again attempts to explain that Larvatus cannot include unverifiable allegations in Wikipedia.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

(sign with ~ )
 * FCYTravis 07:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Demi T/C 07:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * FloNight 08:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary
(sign with ~ )
 * karmafist 07:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * In the wake of Siegenthaler, I wonder if a ban by acclamation might be appropriate here. Ambi 11:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * squibix 14:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * rodii 20:29, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 22:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC) and endorse Ambi's comment above. Also edit protect top prevent unregistered users from hacking these pages following the ban.
 * Tim Pierce 17:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Stifle 13:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * F REAK OF N URxTURE  ( [ TALK ] )  06:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Response
''This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.'' ''

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

On May 3, 2005 ConferencingNews.com published a notice, entitled "2nd Day of WebEx User Conference Cancelled Due to Protester" in its section of Breaking News. This notice read as follows: "The WebEx User Conference and Partner’s Summmit was abruptly canceled today due to an individual, without any affiliation to WebEx, 'protesting' against WebEx outside the Westin St. Francis in San Francisco yesterday afternoon. A Russian rifle and ammunition were found in his car, and he was then detained and let go without his weapons. Evidently, the 'protester' in question has had a grudge against WebEx, and WebEx thought it best to cancel the remainder of the conference, attended by about 350 WebEx users. WebEx pointed out that security was of prime concern to its customers, partners, and employees, and indicated that it would continue the rest of the conference via WebEx within two weeks." Ten days later, a WebEx press repease stated: "WebEx co-founder Min Zhu has retired as chief technology officer and a director. Zhu is relocating to China and will become a WebEx Fellow." Another press release added: "'Min is undeniably the pioneer of real-time collaboration, added Iyar. 'His technical vision, strategic insight and inspired leadership have transformed the way companies around the world conduct business. With our seasoned management team in place, Min is free to retire from day-to-day operations.'" This story was confirmed by WebEx's SEC filing of May 17, 2005  and noted by posters on the Yahoo! WEBX stock board, , , , ,. As a minimum, it follows from this factual record that Min Zhu resigned from WebEx and left the U.S.A. on May 13, 2005, ten days after Michael Zeleny caused WebEx's User Conference to shut down by publicizing allegations of his incestuous pedophile rape made by his daughter Erin Zhu. I have amended the article in question accordingly, to read as follows: "According to WebEx announcement on May 13, 2005, Min Zhu resigned from WebEx and left the U.S.A. This announcement came ten days after Michael Zeleny caused WebEx's User Conference to shut down by publicizing allegations of his incestuous pedophile rape of his daughter Erin Zhu, made by her in public Usenet postings, private correspondence entered into public court record, and sworn testimony entered into public court record available for viewing at the Santa Clara Superior Court." I have collaborated with every request to abide by Wikipedia policy, and will continue to do so on every occasion of of my contributions or edits demonstrably deviating therefrom. Finally, please note that I made no substantive contributions to the WebEx article, which was edited in relevant parts by other parties prior to my signing up as a Wikipedia editor Larvatus 15:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ): Larvatus 15:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

Outside view by karmafist
''This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.''

I overheard talking about this on IRC, and then saw User Talk:Larvatus, in particular User Talk:Larvatus and skimmed a few other articles like Min Zhu. Whoa boy. I can't claim to be involved directly in this even though I initiated the rfc, but I have concerns about someone who claims to be a "pedantic blowhard" on their user page, even if they're being sarcastic, since I've found that's usually an apt description of people who frequent Usenet like Larvatus states on his user page.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):

Outside view User:FeloniousMonk
FCYTravis claims "there is absolutely no independent verification available of these allegations." He just has not taken the time or made the effort to read the relevant court records in the Zeleny/WebEx case: Superior Court of California, County of Santa Clara case number CV809286, Superior Court of California, County of Santa Clara case number CV-024062, Los Angeles Superior Court case number BC324927.

All are public record and readily available and contain sworn testimony by Erin Zhu and Min Zhu that clearly establish the allegations. Erin Zhu's own usenet postings  show that she publicly accused her father of molestation in 1991, long before the WebEx/Zeleny court cases beginning in 2002, establishing the basis for the allegations independently of Larvatus/Zeleny.

If FCYTravis and Demi are unwilling to do the leg work in getting transcripts, the least they can do then is to the view excerpts of the sworn testimony Zeleny has posted to his blog. If still they are unwilling to accept that evidence and unable or unwilling to get their own court transcripts, they should then defer to others who are willing and have made the effort to gather and read the facts. Engaging in a fruitless edit war and campaign to bowdlerize the articles, followed by a specious AFD on Erin Zhu and this RFC is no substitute for doing your homework.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):
 * 1) FeloniousMonk 07:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Jim62sch 13:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) I'm not quite sure what the problem is here.  It's verifiable information related to a public figure.  No one is alleging he killed a Kennedy.  Guettarda 13:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Reply to FeloniousMonk

 * The deposition in a civil lawsuit settled out of court does not constitute an "allegation," in light of the fact that Min Zhu has not been arrested or charged with any crime. It is original research to turn a deposition in a civil case into a prosecutorial allegation of a criminal act. Furthermore, Zeleny has used this deposition to go on a rampage against Min, creating page after page full of ENTIRELY unsubstantiated and unsourced allegations of "cover-up" and "hush money" and "voluntary exile" which has *zero* basis in the public record. Just read WebEx - "By compounding the use of WebEx assets for hush money with employing WebEx corporate counsel to defend himself in the lawsuit and accuse Zeleny of libel, Zhu has confirmed the self-dealing Zeleny alleged." What little sourcing there is for the sexual abuse "allegation," is nonexistent for the rest. This points to the fact that someone involved in a legal dispute with other people should not be editing the Wikipedia article about those other people. I again state that there is ZERO - that is to say not a single piece of objective third-party reporting on the issue. No coverage in ANY newspaper or Web site or forum or even a blog that isn't Mr. Zeleny's. It is original research and soapboxing for a demonstrably involved party to author these Wikipedia articles. FCYTravis 11:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The article's in question do not say Min Zhu is a convicted child molester. They say his daughter alleged that he sexually abused her, which she does: . It's hardly original research. You may want to actually read the court transcripts, too. Santa Clara Superior Court is not that far from Richmond, you know. If I can make the effort to get copies, so can you, and this will all be over. FeloniousMonk 11:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The article on Min Zhu said he was an incestuous rapist and child sex offender until I removed those categories that Larvatus added. At least he was reasonable about that. FCYTravis 11:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You are being a little disingenious by constraining allegations to their prosecutorial variety. Please admit that I never made any claim of the latter kind. It remains amply supported by referenced and independently verified public record that Min Zhu's daughter has publicly alleged her rape by him, and that his departure from WebEx and the U.S.A. followed my campaign of publicizing these allegations. I am aware of my bias in these matters, and make every effort to collaborate with other editors on ensuring the accuracy and neutrality of Wikipedia articles to which I have contributed. Thank you for acknowleging some of these efforts. Larvatus 15:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)larvatus

FeloniousMonk's outside view only comments on the content of the particular court cases. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about the nature of "allegations" and whether Wikipedia is required to contain everything someone alleges (on the talk page or that of Reliable sources); however, this RFC is about the conduct of Larvatus, in repeatedly using Wikipedia to gain a wider audience for his campaign: A campaign which has so far successfully brought no attention other than his own blog. As someone intimately involved with Erin Zhu and conducting an ongoing campaign against Min Zhu, Larvatus needs to stay out of editing subjects related to them. Demi T/C 18:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Please verify that those Usenet posting were by Min Zhu. Those are not evidence of anything other than that someone who uses an ID Min Zhu is alleging that the father of the real Min Zhu committed these acts. A newspaper article in which the real Min Zhu makes those allegations would be proof. A legal case in which she has sued him or asked for his arrest would be proof. Usenet postings by anybody claiming to be her are proof of nothing. Zoe (216.234.130.130 21:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC))
 * Just a note of clarification: Min Zhu is the father, Erin Zhu the daughter. Demi T/C 21:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment: I checked those linked court cases, they refer to a dispute between Zeleny & Zhu, there is no reference there to child molestation as far as I can see. Those claims only come from unsubstatiated sources. I'd want at the very least a police or newspaper report verifying the facts; this is after all a very serious allegation. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 15:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside View by user: OnceBitten
Having reviewed the RfC and its allegations, I'm really struck by one question - what personal stake does user: Larvatus have in Min Zhu and his daughter Erin Zhu?

Incest and abuse digusts me. But I get the feeling that Min Zhu article has been put on trial through the article and I don't believe that this is Wikipedia's function. Also, what is accomplished by disclosure of this information? I understand that crime and punishment follow one and other, but how does the disclosure of this matter improve the article's content? OnceBitten 16:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Response to OnceBitten
It's pretty clear what personal stake he has - he was a former lover of Erin Zhu, had a business deal with her father go bad and was involved in lawsuits with them and their company. Precisely why he shouldn't be editing their Wikipedia articles. FCYTravis 20:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Travis - My question and point was rhetorical. OnceBitten 22:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside View by User:Morven
User:Larvatus has shown himself incapable of any kind of objectivity or balance on the subject of Min Zhu, Erin Zhu, or anything connected with them. He has also shown himself incapable of objectivity on his own importance. The arbcom has in multiple cases stated that obsessional fixation with a certain topic may get a user banned from that topic. I would urge Larvatus to avoid editing articles on these topics in future. He should present his sources on the talk pages and let others work on the articles. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 20:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by JoaoRicardo
It is not up to our editors to do fieldwork. We don't need to go out there and check if something is real or not. What we need is to describe what reliable sources have said on the subject, but without claiming this to be true. Court records are reliable sources, and edits based on them should not be labeled "unsourced". However, the links displayed above by FeloniousMonk only show that Erin Zhu was involved in some legal case with her father; unless I'm missing something in those pages, they don't tell what was the nature of this case, and they don't prove other allegations (eg. that Min Zhu settled out of court with his daughter to cover up her accusations of rape). As to the other alleged sources, anyone can sign a Usenet posting with the name "Erin Zhu", and what one involved party writes in his website is not a good account of the facts. The whole affair remains unsourced in general. And due to the gravity of this allegation, I believe FCYTravis, Demi and FloNight were right in bringing this to the attention of the community.

I won't go into the reasons Zeleny has for his interests in this subject. But whatever these are, it is not right for him to use Wikipedia as a means to his personal ends. It is clear that he has a personal interest in this fact being publicized, which took him to insert this information in articles not related to the incident, such as cover up. I would suggest to him that he refrain from editing articles related to the Erin Zhu affair, or to insert related information in other articles, and limits himself in publicizing this fact by other means, such as his LiveJournal or protests in WebEx meetings. When this gets the attention of the media and other investigators get into it, then can Wikipedia cover the incident more adequately.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):


 * 1) Tim Pierce 14:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Gyrofrog  (talk) 07:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) rodii 16:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.