Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Nescio 2

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Statement of the dispute
''This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.''

Desired outcome
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I would like Nescio to take other people's opinion into account while he is editing and stop pushing his point of view. If that's not possible, I don't think he should be allowed to edit Wikipedia.

Description
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Nescio has pushed his POV on a number of articles related to President Bush. He feels that the President is a criminal, and he tries to slant articles' POV that way. He ignores discussion when it goes against him. He only applies WP policies when it would be to the advantage of his perspective. On talk pages, instead of arguing against what people actually write, he states what he believes their positions are and presents an argument against that statement. During an RFC, he edited neutral questions to include information that slants them to his perspective (loaded questions - there's complaints about him doing this before in his first RFC).


 * See also his first RFC, which was never resolved.

Evidence of disputed behavior
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)


 * 1. WP:DR WP:OWN: Nescio was in an edit war with several other editors over a period of a month and a half before I started working on the article.
 * 
 * 2. WP:CON: I requested a WP:Third opinion for a disputed phrase. Third opinion agreed with me.  I removed the disputed text.  Nescio reverted.
 * 
 * 3. WP:NPOV WP:RFC: We had an RFC for the article. I wrote some questions for people to answer.  Nescio changed the questions to support his point of view.
 * 
 * 4. WP:OR WP:CON WP:GAME: When I added a section that explains the Iraq Resolution is legal under US law, he countered by adding statements whose sources never mentioned the resolution, the Iraq invasion, or the UN Charter (the basic idea that they convey is that under international law, a country can't violate international law. I don't really disagree with that, but they don't belong in this article).  I removed them, because they were clearly WP:SYN.  He reverted, saying it was reasonable because one of my sources that involved the Vienna Conventions would be irrelevant as well.  I thought he was offering a deal, so I removed everything that mentioned Vienna.  Then he removed the entire section because it wasn't adequately sourced.  I re-added the section and supplied a source with a new introductory sentence.  Then he re-added his response without any changes.  I moved part of it to another section and removed the rest, explaining that they don't belong in the article.  He added it again, this time in a new section directly underneath the section it was arguing against.


 * At that point, I decided to get an RFC on the article, because I couldn't continue this way (on this issue and some others). Two editors responded.  Both said the first sentence in his new section violates policy (Rei's response is confusing, because he first says he agrees with Nescio and then says that the first sentence is bad).  Nescio then admitted that he was aware his additions violated WP:OR.  He also said it's "reasonable" to ignore WP:OR for the sake of WP:NPOV (cherry-picking policies is in conflict with WP:GAME).  At this point, there was essentially a consensus, because everybody on the page agreed that the first sentence was OR.  I removed the first sentence in the section.  He reverted without comment.


 * 5. WP:GAME: When pro-Bush statements are added, he insists on more stringent rules than the community. In WP:RS, the community accepts newspapers with editorial oversight.  He wouldn't accept anything other than a "proper legal source".
 * 
 * 6. WP:V WP:TPG: He treats as an undisputed fact that the President stated that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks, but he never provides a source.
 * 
 * 7. WP:TPG (Misrepresenting others): On talk pages, instead of arguing against what a person wrote, he makes a statement of what he thinks the other person believes and argues against his own statement.
 * 

Applicable policies and guidelines
{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}


 * WP:GAME
 * WP:OWN
 * WP:OR/WP:SYN
 * WP:CON

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
(provide diffs and links)


 * Mediation between Nescio and GATXER. They were both subsequently blocked for edit warring.
 * Page protection Jul. 12 to Aug. 6
 * Third opinion
 * RFC

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}


 * Isaac Pankonin 10:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't going to support this RFC thinking it might be premature, but then Nescio made a post where he is trying to rewrite history. So I had to read the ENTIRE history of the page with all of his edits to respond.  Reading the entire history and his edits convinced me to endorse this RFC.  Note, I came to this article due to an RFC about 2 weeks ago.Balloonman 01:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with this because when I was new to wiki (still don't know all official procedures, I edit very part time), Nescio kept on taking out pertinent information. I was all about rewriting information and including claims that disputed the claims I wanted to disput. According to the "Movement to Impeach..." page, George Bush made up the WMD threat. I accurately posted President Clinton's 1998 State of the Union Address stating Clinton's accusation of WMD in Iraq, a post Nescio himself agrees was cited properly. He purposely kept on deleting it, yet kept the allegations of "making up" the threat. My compromise was to keep both, that there has been evidence of both and let the reader decide. Nescio tried to move towards an approach of quelling dissent to his POV. I tried to be fair, but he seems to be using this site as his own POV propaganda site by violating WP:SOAP. Arnabdas 17:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Isaac's Response to Rei's view
Rei's view centers around the way I presented #1 in the "evidence" section above when I started this RFC. I only included Nescio's conflict with GATXER at first. I was not defending GATXER. It takes two to fight, and Nescio showed that he was a willing participant. However, the edit war they were involved in goes back 23 days before GATXER joined it. I count at least 3 other users (Garric, one unique anonymous IP who tried to tone down the language, and 3 IP's that were probably the same anon user) who disagreed with Nescio and removed his additions, and nobody else took Nescio's side (There was one anon IP 84.87.61.22, which looks a lot like Special:Contributions/Nescio). Nescio payed no attention to them other than reverting on sight.

After Nescio received a 10 hour block for this, he posted on AN/I disputing the block. Jpgordon agreed with the block. Jersey Devil said he was involved but did not instigate it. To be sure, GATXER initiated the PA incidents on the talk page. However, what was not addressed is that Nescio was the only participant of the edit war that was involved from the beginning to the end, from May 30 to July 12 - a month and a half! How could GAXTER start it if he wasn't there yet? The truth is that Nescio started it, he continued it for a month and a half, and he only stopped when the page was protected. Yes, GATXER was wrong for his personal attacks. But that doesn't change the fact that Nescio's behavior was wrong as well. Isaac Pankonin 02:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

View by GATXER
I think it comes down to this question. Should a editor who refers to George Bush as the "Fuhr" be editting pages about George Bush? I tried to say no. I did somethings that were wrong. I was new to Winki and didnt know how to handle a editor pushing his POV on pages. IMHO EDitor N uses the system to bully other editors to give up.When he took me to a meditor he was in meditation with about 5 other people.

When Med failed to change my mind he took me to the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents....when that failed he said I was staking him. Of course that was a lie.Hes on about every Bush page you can think of so anyone who goes to those pages is in his mind salking him. When that failed he said I was using a sockpuppet even though that IP is in New Mexico and Im in IL.

Keep in mind that in the meditation I Had with Editor N....no one on the page agreed with his editds yet he kept making the same edits.

Did I make mistakes that I had to say im sorry about? Sure. That doesnt change the fact that Editor N pushes his POV on Bush pages. Anyone looking at his Conb can see he is on some sort of mission.

Again the question remains: Should a editor who refers to George Bush as the "Fuhr" be editting pages about George Bush? GATXER 23:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:
 * 7390r0g 04:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

View by Balloonman
The fact that somebody refers to Bush as the Fuhr, does not in and of itself mean that said person should not edit an article on Bush. Now, if the person was trying to make that statement in an article, without strong sources, that is a different story.Balloonman 05:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:
 * Isaac Pankonin 23:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Response by Nescio
''This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.'' ''

As an aside, I advise you to reread the RFC that you signed because IMHO Isaac Pankonin has made incorrect statements. I won't comment there, it is of course nothing more than a content dispute, but if you want to I can clarify for you that every singly statement in the RFC is either false or conspicuously fails to mention relevant facts.Thereby rendering his version incompatible with the historical facts. Thank you. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 12:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Reposted from Talk:Iraq Resolution by Isaac Pankonin 04:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view by Rei
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I really think that this RFC is overboard. I stepped in to the article based on an RFC that had been filed, and in most cases, found Nescio's stance to be more compelling. I see a little less belligerence on the side of Nescio in this debate compared to the other participants, with said user often even signing with "Respectfully" (without any evidence of sarcasm). I see Nescio referring to GATXER as "my fellow editor" right before GATXER sarcastically calls them "the great Nescio" and right after GATXER calls them a "moonbat" and an "idiot". I see little to no evidence of Nescio ignoring mediation. What this summary describes, for example, as Nescio ignoring Addhoc, I see Addhoc making a suggestion and then later changing it to a request that the users simply "compromise" (while, meanwhile, Nescio is doing their best to remain calm while GATXER yells). What I see here is a legitimate difference of opinion, and honestly, I think it's somewhat poor form to take this difference of opinion to a request for comment on the user themself.

"He admits that his section contains original research and unsupported syndication, but he insists on keeping it." -- I would like to see a source on this one. I assume that you meant synthesis, not syndication. -- Rei 15:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:
 * 1) Essentially agree - legitimate difference of opinion. Nescio doesn't support George W Bush and his edits to some extent reflect this point of view. Hopefully, further attempts at dispute resolution can resolve the issue. Addhoc 17:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Outside view
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Users who endorse this summary:

Discussion
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