Wikipedia:Requests for comment/PUNKNYC

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 23:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).



Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute
This user's participation in Wikipedia consists entirely of adding multiple and often paragraph-long references to 'Bob Salese' in the Hardcore Punk article and to a small number of related articles. This activity has been taking place for roughly two years, despite explanations of Wikipedia policy, warnings, and interventions, including a 'final warning' last week by an admin. The Hardcore Punk article has been blocked from edits by new and anonymous users due to PUNKNYC's activities, which continue unabated. [UPDATE: The article is now closed to all edits.]

Description
Wikipedia's Hardcore Punk article covers a wide span of time and events, from roughly 1978-present, in many cities in North America and Europe. 'Bob Salese' was a minor promoter in New York who released several independent records, most relevantly a 1982 compilation album called Big Apple Rottn to the Core, which featured several local bands.

Other articles exist on narrower subjects, such as the New York hardcore scene, in which some material on 'Bob Salese' may be relevant and helpful. However, the references added to the Hardcore Punk article grandiosely inflate the importance of Bob Salese, presenting him as a major historical figure. Salese 'invented' the term 'hardcore punk,' etc. The stories have changed over time, now focusing on Salese's exploits with a band called ISM, for whom PUNKNYC claims unique historical importance.

These claims are not supported by the documentary record: A Google search reveals that nearly all citations of the name 'Bob Salese' point to text added to the Hardcore Punk article by PUNKNYC, or to identical text persistently added and re-added by anonymous users of similar IP addresses. There exist no external citations of 'Bob Salese' which suggest historical importance on more than a local level. The band ISM, while certainly extant and active during the time claimed, are cited as important in one blog post derived from an email writted by an associate of Bob Salese. (Please see below in this section re: citations by people who claim association with Bob Salese.)

In short, the claims made by PUNKNYC range from demonstrably false, to unverifiable, to true-but-trivial.

The extreme persistence and single-mindedness with which PUNKNYC has added and re-added these claims into the article (to the exclusion of all other Wikipedia activity) suggests a strong personal interest. PUNKNYC claims merely to be 'someone who was there' who wants to 'set the record straight' and eliminate 'distortions' by other editors. He claims to be able to get in touch with Bob Salese in order to verify claims.

PUNKNYC's denials that he is, in fact, adding exaggeratedly laudatory content about himself to Wikipedia while claiming to be a neutral editor, may (and should) be judged in context with findings on this editor's use of sock puppets.

Evidence of disputed behavior
These references are re-added and reverted almost daily despite interventions and explanations by several editors, including myself and Spylab, and admin Rich Farmbrough -- who issued a final warning several reverts ago. Conversations are viewable on the article talk page, my talk page, Spylab's talk page, and Rich Farmbrough's talk page. Links will follow.

PUNKNYC denies using sock puppets, despite identical reverts and comments favorable to PUNKNYC made by anonymous users, all from the same IP block. These ceased when the Hardcore Punk article was closed to new and anonymous users due to PUNKNYC's activities. The affiliation of these anonymous users with PUNKNYC may be established by a simple check of IP address. PUNKNYC also claims to be impartial to the topic of Bob Salese, while displaying extensive knowledge and focus on the career of Bob Salese, and on no other subject.

PUNKNYC also routinely claims to be the victim of 'vandalism' and 'personal attacks' when his additions are reverted or changed. His claims and justifications change often, and discussion of them tends inevitably toward the circular. For instance, a former claim that Bob Salese 'invented the term hardcore punk' has most recently been modified to a claim that a writer overheard Bob Salese using the term, and published it in a student newspaper. The accompanying citation is uncheckable. Many similar examples may be cited.

Applicable policies and guidelines
Applicable policies include proscriptions against POV and vanity content, the use of sock puppets, and violation of the three-revert rule. While PUNKNYC has made unambiguous personal attacks, I do not wish to claim them as a violation at this time, because I feel that charge is often trivially evoked. I do not wish to complain of personal offense at this user's conduct. However, a non-trivial charge is the use of Wikipedia as a soapbox, and that behavior has been unmitigated and flagrant, to the exclusion of any and all other activities on Wikipedia.

Other violations may apply, as this activity has taken place over an extended time.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
I communicated extensively and cordially with this user on the above talk pages. Rather than deleting additions reflexively, I have moved relevant text to the article, Bob Salese, have suggested changes and retained a degree of Bob-Salese-related content, and have also suggested that some material would be appropriate for articles on NY Hardcore and other subjects. However, Salese-associated activity on the page seems to stabilize only with the inclusion of three separate sections of Salese-focused material, totalling in excess of two paragraphs, and necessarily and unfailingly including two instances of the term, "Bob Salese" (i.e., it is apparently of great importance to PUNKNYC that the name, "Bob Salese," accompany these references). Edits which fall short of this Salese-enriched standard are promptly topped up with fresh Salese.

The energy and persistence with which PUNKNYC Saleses the living Salese out of this article outstrips the ability of reasonable editors to monitor the changes, and all appropriate avenues have been exhausted. I communicated with this user today asking that he no longer edit the article and warning that my next action would be to request that he be prevented from editing Wikipedia articles. His response was a renewed and intensified re-Salesification of all Salesifiable content.

I request that one of the following actions be taken:

1) Redirecting the article Hardcore Punk to the article Bob Salese, then setting all of Wikipedia's servers on fire and jumping en masse into traffic, leaving only a tear-stained note reading, "The shame, the ineffectiveness (no funeral)."

2) The opposite, in which PUNKNYC is, at long last, stopped from editing articles toward the glory of Bob Salese, minor New York hardcore punk promoter circa 1982-84. This is of course, in effect, a total ban from Wikipedia, unless fortune should grant that other, non-Salese subjects may engage PUNKNYC's interest as an editor and contributor -- which would be a result most pleasing to myself and other contributors to this article, and hopefully to PUNKNYC as well.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

 * Auto movil 23:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Spylab 22:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Response
''This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.'' ''

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view
''This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.''

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Outside view by Rich Farmbrough
My attention was drawn to to this situation by a note at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism‎. It appears that Punknyc has been edit-warring over this area for some considerable time, both under IP addresses and logged in, however at the time did not seem to meet the criteria for AIV. I warned Punknyc for 3RR, and sprotected the key article (which I don't like doing). The material suffers from questions of verifiability (for example one of the few on-line references I found appeared to have been written by the same individual), and possibly notability and original research. Having said this Punknyc has made (on cursory inspection) some other contributions which seem useful. IF Punknyc could leave the subject of Bob and his work alone there may be less difficulty. Also confusinhg the situation Punknyc has signed himself User:PUNKNYC - so that messages have been left on the wrong talk page - I have institued a redirect.

P.S. SInce the edit warring contuinues, I have protected the page until the RFC has run it's course. RF 20:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Rich,

I'm commenting in this section only to add a relevant cite. Please moderate if necc. All of User:Punknyc's edits have been to articles concerning Bob Salese projects, comprising The Big Apple Rotten To The Core, The Mob, Bob Salese, Hardcore Punk, etc. User contributions [here]. Auto movil 18:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:
 * 1) Rich Farmbrough, 08:52 18 October 2006 (GMT).
 * 2) Addhoc 18:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 3)  ¿¡Exir  Kamalabadi?! Join Esperanza! 12:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) --Jayron32 04:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.<!--


 * Untrue. There have been contributions to the exerpts of " Decline of Western Civilation", Pat Duncan, Tim Sommer & Ben Manilla...There have been various other contributions over the years which were vandalized as well since the contributors here want to present only one story without citations.  The Ben Manilla Tim Sommer & Pat Duncan links have also been vandalized many times.  All my recent additions pertaining to Manilla, Salese, The Mob, Ism, Sommer & Duncan have been furnished with legitmate citations which can be obtained by anyone wishing to do so.  This is contrary to claims that Auto movil has made about other bands on discussion boards and posted lies about various placing on the charts without one iota of evidence to back-up his outlandish claims.  I can contribute useful information now and in the future and plan on only backing them up with cited sources unlike Auto movil and his groupies.  I will not contribute to an article that leaves out cited points that are relevant to the discussion while leaving in a host of opinionated claims that are written from one person's POV.  I have left no POV additions to the article in my last posted versions.  If I have signed in in error or not followed format in the past, it has only been because I am still learning the basics of wilkepedia and do not spend my life on here as those who are trying to distort history do.  I am not the only one who has complained in the past about the lack of relevance palced on the NYC hardcore scene in the article.  I would have to believe if you continue to vandalize links of importance to players like Salese and Ism plus many others, there will always be new people signing in to include them back.  I know of not one early hardcore band, radio staion or player on the scene that did not have some dealings or contact with Salese.  His contributions to getting hardcore into the mainstream has been fully documented in the article.  The other alternative is for you to allow User: Auto movil and his select groupies to be the only ones to contribute their vanity POV  claims with little or no sources to back them and continue to create this fairytale and fictional story on hardcore punk.  I still believe that one link to Ism, Salese, Pat Duncan, Tim Sommer, Jack Rabid, The Mob and  Ben Mailla must remain in the article.  Furthermore, Auto movil who continues to obsess with Sallese, at one point continued leaving Salese's name in the article with uncited and incorrect "fairytale stories" of Salese.  When I corrected this with cited sources he removed all refs. to Salese.  It seems quite obvious that this user is hell bent on distoring history & spreading false information without one iota of proof back up by reliable sources.  I am completely surprised that this Rfc is even in order since each & every point vandalized in the last article I contributed to has been sourced and cited with no POV comments unlike those of which Auto movil contributes with and are left untouched by his groupis posting here.

User:PUNKNYC

Do not comment below. Please read the instructions above.

-->