Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Viriditas


 * The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.  

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 11:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).



Statement of the dispute
WP:Wikihounding by User:Viriditas that intensified after User:Viriditas was blocked from editing for 48 hours six days ago for WP:Edit Warring, that has spread to other articles and noticeboards, including a extemely long campaign of combative uncivil accusations to nearly every other editor, deletion of talk page comments of other editors, open harrassment, overt baiting, threats, HUSH practices, false accusations and open admissions of POV editing.

Cause of concern
(note: notice of this RfCU was provided to Viriditas here.

Comment by Mosedschurte
(note: this RfCU on Viriditas was brought at the request of Administrators and editors, such as here, here and here.)

Wikihounding intensifies after Viriditas was blocked for 48 hours - I apologize in advance for the long description, but understand that it's actually a tiny fraction of what's been going on, making it virtually impossible to edit on Wikipedia. I and other editors need help regarding some openly brazen WP:Wikihounding that literally takes up now several hours a day over numerous articles and boards. In fact, it has just caused one excellent editor (Wildhartlivie) to declare that he is "Done" attempting to edit an article, wondering "I keep wondering why an administrator hasn't intervened with what is being said and the attacks upon me and the two of you." This Wikihounding campaign intensified after Viriditas was blocked from editing for 48 hours six days ago for WP:Edit Warring on Human rights in the United States, including falsely accusing at least two editors of "NPOV" and "plagarism", the Wikihounding, which had existed before, was increased.

Spread to Jonestown, with admission that it was because I had previously edited that article - After his/her block time ran out, Viriditas then began a series of tagging and openly combative Talk page sections at the Jonestown article, which I had previously edited mostly a year or more ago and Viriditas had never before edited, with three editors. When another editor raised his suspicions that this was part of Viriditas' continuing attempted dispute with me, Viriditas actually admitted "yes, my attention was drawn to this article due to the actions of another user who has been active here, referring to me. Viriditas' most sizable campaign there involved the inclusion of a POV tag over the entire article because the article did not do more than discuss for one sentence and link to the article Jonestown conspiracy theory, a fringe CIA conspiracy theory first espoused by cult leader Jim Jones himself to hs followers.

Spread to Noticeboards and other venues - Unfortunately, it has now spread even further:
 * Baseless Neutral Point of View complaint - lodged by Viriditas on the same conspiracy theory, wherein it was again explained to this user -- over more combative commentary -- by a NOTICEBOARD EDITOR that "I see no real NPOV issue here" along with the same statements by the other three editors. The NOTICEBOARD EDITOR, now the FOURTH editor to say this, stated "the (correct IMO) point was made repetitively by others that the content under debate best belonged in the conspiracy article - and User:Viriditas refusal to accept that seems to have consumed a lot of effort that could have been better spent improving that article and the short mention of it in the main article".
 * Baseless SPI complaint now against Wildhartlivie - seriously suggesting that the use of the words "completely" and "yet another" by two accounts made one a sock puppet. Outside editors noted that Viriditas' complaint was "one of the most obvious examples of fishing I've seen to date" and "tenuous at best."
 * Basless ANI complaint - alleging so many conspiracy theories and other ridiculous accusations that it is dizzying to even attempt to follow.
 * Open combat on the Jonestown Talk page - with a wide variety of editors, alleging numerous unfounded accusations (some detailed below
 * Baeless accusations on an Admin's Talk page - about numerous editors, including even the admin
 * Baseless complaint at the content noticoboard against me - alleging "plagarism", where Viriditas was told it was not plagarism.

Talk Page Comment Deletions of multiple editors - The WP:Wikihounding includes repeatedly deleting my comments on Article Talk pages -- along with those of other editors -- in gross violation of WP:TPO, so much so that Viriditas was seperately made to stop such Talk Page comment deletions by an administrator at ANI-3RR here in a separate instance.

Combative, Uncivil Accusations and Charges to nearly every editor - Unfortunately, in the Jonestown article, which has now suffered from this new part of the WP:Wikihounding campaign, the Talk page alone has ballooned in size by over 1,100% in three days -- from 10K to over 115K -- by the now highly combative many-hours/day Talk page campaign that Viriditas is waging with me and other editors. Just one click on the page reveals the now nightmare state is has become. This includes violating WP:Assume Good Faith and further WP:Disruptive editing on that page and other talk pages: Understand that this is just a TINY SAMPLE of the combative bloat that the Talk:Jonestown has assumed since Viriditas brought the Wikihounding campaign there three days ago.
 * to editor Wildhartlivie - I see you are still chewing on sour grapes from the shortened footnotes discussion. My neutrality here has never been in question.
 * to editor radek - "you have shown that you are intellectually dishonest"
 * edit comment re me and Yachtsman1 - "crud posted by disruptive crudités attempting to distract and change the subject. Your crud is not needed"
 * to me - Because of your documented history of poor editing involving cherry picking of primary and secondary sources, undue weight, NPOV violations, and plagiarism
 * To editor Vecrumba - "Put up or shut up. . . . It looks like he's engaged in some serious backchannel canvassing to get you and the other meatpuppets to show up here and make nonsensical comments, but it's transparent."
 * To editor radek - "I'm getting tired of your wikilawyering. Since you are not informed on this topic"
 * to editor Wildhartlivie: Sorry, but none of what you say makes any sense.
 * to editor Yachtsman1 - You are a tag teaming meatuppet for Mosedchurtre, the editor who refuses to allow a discussion of the classified sources and conspiracy theories in the article, and you are not neutral.  You have the same documented NPOV issues as Mosedchurtre.
 * to editor Wildhartlive - You're not following the discussion. To refresh your memory,
 * to editor Yachtsman1 - "you aren't the first civil POV pusher/wikilawer to try it, nor the last"
 * to editor Yachtsman1: You aren't paying attention.
 * to others "Mosedschurte and Yachtsman1 are civil POV pushers and inadvertant plagiarists"
 * False accusations to a admin Alex Bakharev on his talk page after Viridias was blocked for 48 hours "I don't see how you considered the behavior of Mosedchurte or Biophys, both of whom were deliberately restoring plagiarized, copyrighted material into the article. And you never considered the behavior of Biophys, whose only edit was to tag-team for Mosedchurte, again, restoring the plagiarized, copyright violating material back in".

False allegations of sock puppetry/meat puppetry - too numerous to collect all of them, all blatant violations of WP:Civil and WP:Assume Good Faith. Here are a few:
 * Falsely implies I was user Raggz (?)
 * Falsely implies that Yachtsman1 is Raggz (maybe we're all part of the conspiracy!)
 * Accuses Yachtsman1 as being a meat puppet
 * Accuses Vecrumba of being a meat puppet
 * Implies that I was a sock puppet for several IPs and other accounts (note: not only laughably false, but a year ago in an article not even edited by Viriditas)
 * Same implications above for Wildhartlivie
 * Also accuses Wildhartlivie of another sock puppet, a long time editor who was already explained to be Wilhartlivie's room mate.

False conspiracy theory allegations and Tag Team charges - again, almost too numerous to count, and they appear to arise against everyone who does not agree with Viriditas:
 * Regarding an odd conspiracy theory, Viriditas claimed that I am "the only connection" with editors from a "Diqwuren" arbcom case in which I have never been involved. Viriditas seriously claimed that my "connection" with this "Diqwuren" arbcom case was merely because I had edited World War II articles in the past.
 * Accused editor Biophys of "tag teaming" with me and others
 * Accused editor Vecrumba of coordinating "back channel canvassing" of "meat puppets"
 * Accused an admin blocking Viriditas of having a "conflict of interest"
 * Charges that the very existence of this RfCU is to "distract" from "tag teaming and back channel coordination"

Blatant Threats - The campaign also includes numerous threats. After filing two baseless ANI sections (only a small fraction of the total Wikihounding), Viriditas threatened "There are currently two open ANI reports on your disruptive behavior, and I expect to open three more in the next 24 hours. Please do not continue to act disruptively in this article." Another threatened that failing to answer his/her questions would "get you in trouble": "Please stop ignoring my questions per talk page guidelines. Failure to answer them but continuing to make the same points will get you in trouble."

Disruptive Editing and Baiting By Repeating False Statements To Attempt To Draw Angy Responses - The WP:Wikihounding also involves WP:Disruptive editing that was open outright WP:Harrassment, including several false accsations repeated, ignoring all statements made, just to attempt to bait some aggressive responsve, such as the following (just one of many examples) regarding the potential citation of an article by Dr. Rebcca Moore, which I never opposed:
 * Viriditas - "Why isn't this source allowed to be used in the article? . . . What is your objection to using this particular source?"
 * Me -"No editor, including me, has disallowed this (Rebecca Moore) article, and I in fact have cited Dr. Moore's books in this article. I have no objection to the source, or many thousands of other books and articles on Jonestown"
 * Viriditas - "Why will you not allow a scholarly article written by the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, Rebecca Moore, to be used in this article"
 * Me - *Please stop making false statements such as "Why will you not allow a scholarly article written by the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, Rebecca Moore ", each continued falsity is a further indication of WP:Disruptive editing. The brazen falseness of this charge is especially telling for future ANI action where I directly stated above, ""No editor, including me, has disallowed this article, and I in fact have cited Dr. Moore's books in this article. I have no objection to the source, or many thousands of other books and articles on Jonestown."
 * Viriditas - "Please explain why you will not allow a scholarly article written by the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, Rebecca Moore, to be used in this article"
 * Me - Third time now, please stop making false statements such as "Please explain why you will not allow a scholarly article written by the chair of the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University, Rebecca Moore, to be used in this article "
 * Viriditas - "What is it that you find objectionable about citing this academic paper"
 * Me - Fourth time now, please stop making false statements, each continued falsity is a further indication of WP:Disruptive editing. The brazen falseness of this charge is especially telling for future ANI action where I directly stated above, ""No editor, including me, has disallowed this article, and I in fact have cited Dr. Moore's books in this article. I have no objection to the source, or many thousands of other books and articles on Jonestown." . There is ZERO issue with citing this article.

Again, this is merely one example of combative disruptive editing and baiting via false statements that occurs throughout the Talk page.

HUSH practices - The campaign also involves engaging in WP:HUSH, leaving numerous warnings on both my talk page, as well as user:Yachtsman1 here, here, and here

False Plagarism Assertions/Forum Shopping - The campaign further includes makinge false "plagarism" accusations, at times as an attempted pretext to delete text, including at WP:Content_noticeboard, where he/she was told "If it's paraphrased sufficiently, it isn't plagiarism. It is paraphrased sufficiently." For the record, as Viriditas was told by others, it is plainly obvious that it was not plagarism, yet Viriditas repeatedly deleted the text based on this false basis, such as here, here, here, here and here. Note, he/she continued the false accusations of "plagarism", here, with [As for your continued plagiarism of content, that is a fact that is not in dispute. In fact, she did so an another board not just about one editor, but about two here: Both the content noticeboard and the copyright cleanup board agreed that you (another editor) and Mosedchurte are engaging in plagiarism.

Openly admits to POV in editing - Viriditas also overtly admits POV in editing, such as with regard to the tendency to include violations over advances in Human rights in the United States, where he/she admitted "Mosedschurte, do you understand that the positive advancement of human rights in the U.S. has come out of the criticism of negative incidents?" Mosedschurte (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Wildhartlivie
(note: this was first raised at ANI, where admins directed that it be raised instead at RfCU, and this comment was copied therefrom. That editor has edited and added to this comment.)

I should open this statement by saying that in the past, the few exchanges I had with Viriditas were not contentious or concerned any disagreements whatsoever, although they were few. Viriditas made made increasingly incivil posts and personal attacks to and about me. "You're not following the discussion. To refresh your memory... My next post objected to tone and requested that it stop, and explained that the editor's posts were bereft of diffs to check what was being posted . The response was to finally repost the diff that had been posted some 150 posts earlier and suggested I "try to read the discussion". I protested the tone and incivility and again requested that the "contentious and attacking" posts stop. That post provoked a response that included [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jonestown&diff=next&oldid=299058561 "You must be kidding. Please do yourself a favor and actually read what you wrote above, at 03:27, 28 June 2009. Your entire comment was one long demeaning commentary, contentious, and attacking ... Seriously, take a break or something because you aren't making any sense at all."] Later, when I again challenged the editor's ability to conduct a neutral assessment of content involving Mosedshurte, the editor denied issues with neutrality and claimed that I would have to show "a non-neutral concern or edit" and referred to my repeated expressed concerns as "a neat trick, but it's painfully transparent". The editor claimed "there is a mandate to discuss the conspiracy theories here, per NPOV", I responded with a somewhat thorough examination of that here, which Viriditas dismissed in a demeaning and patronizing manner, saying "My concerns were directly addressed by a neutral third-party from the NPOV noticeboard, so I have no idea what you are going on about now." The attacks and incivility actually worsened at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, where I made this initial statement. My involvement on Talk:Jonestown was dismissed and characterized as stemming from my being "very upset at me because I pointed out that your chosen referencing format was unwieldy and inefficient and I recommended the use of shortened footnotes in its place. You then threatened to leave the article if I changed anything", both of which were factually untrue. The editor then posted this, which effectively minimized my overriding concern with the actual involvement of the editor him/herself constituting an issue with POV, trying to direct the discussion back to only what points he/she wanted to cover, frankly ignoring that larger issue. Viriditas then mischaracterized my statements and POV concerns with his/her involvement on the article at the noticeboard as "an angry response from Wildhartlivie" and dismissed all the other editors' posts as "more POV crud". At that time, an uninvolved editor reviewed the page and claims being made and concluded "I see no real NPOV issue here" in response to Viriditas' charge of NPOV violations. Even after that, Viriditas continued contentiousness, stating "The burying of comments under repeated "crud" without actually addressing the topic or saying anything is a common tactic of POV pushers." I again posted a protest regarding the personal attacks, mischaracterizations, and contentiousness, to which Viriditas replied "I have no idea what you are talking about, but that's an interesting fantasy world you live in." When I posted these comments to the WP:AN/I report filed, Viriditas then accused me of having ownership issues, stating "from that first discussion and until the end", based on the bad faith assumption that I was responding in anger because of the citation style discussion and did not act at any time in good faith and refused to respond to his/her claims, despite the fact that I had stated clearly I did not want to deal with the specific content discussion and initially only engaged in the rest of the content discussion with posts regarding my concerns with his/her neutrality. He/she further claimed that I "made many personal attacks against my character" without bothering to submit one diff that substantiates that I made any personal attacks, displayed ownership issues, or refused to discuss content, although I did make responses, albeit ones Viriditas chose to ignore. He/she stated "It's not honest to show only one side of the dispute", but is that not the purpose of the other editor's responding to noticeboards and RFCs, to show that editor's side of the dispute. That is the responsibility of the person who said it. However I did post diffs to some of the posts to which Viriditas responded. So now, Viriditas is making an accusation of dishonesty as well, in a noticeboard post concerning his/her own behavior toward other editors. Viriditas then again avoided the actual issue of user behavior by defending his/her edits on the main page, although the only discussion about main page editing was in regard to tags. It should be noted that after this was taken to WP:NPOVN, one of the final statements by the outside reviewer, Jaymax, was "However, the (correct IMO) point was made repetitively by others that the content under debate best belonged in the conspiracy article - and Viriditas refusal to accept that seems to have consumed a lot of effort that could have been better spent improving that article and the short mention of it in the main article." That was stated by the neutral, uninvolved editor whose opinion was sought by Viriditas at the board.

Viriditas attacked a source linked to a caption on a photo essay on the Time magazine website, claiming it could have been plagiarized from Wikipedia, that the Time content was "backward sourcing" and attacked the reliability by demanding an author's name and dating from the site, although the photo essay was clearly titled "Mass Suicide at Jonestown: 30 Years Later". I stated that "the event happened in November 1978 - when then would 30 years later be?" The response was patronizing and quite odd and ignored the clear evidence of the date of the essay. A different source was then found, and Viriditas refused to support or discuss her/his rather odd claim that Time magazine was plagiarizing content from Wikipedia by copying from here and publishing it without proper terms of use attribution, despite being repeatedly asked. Instead, Viriditas simply blew off the repeated questioning regarding that by saying another source had been found and refused to discuss what is basically a serious charge against Time magazine further.

Based on the gross incivility, personal attacks, bad faith assumptions and contentiousness shown by Viriditas, I believe this RFC is well supported. This is simply outrageous and unacceptable and editors should not be required to endure personal attacks, incivility, contentiousness or confrontational bad faith of this scope. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Yachtsman1
I don't really want to beat the proverbial dead horse, and the linked comments above act to frame this issue rather nicely. Douglas Adams wrote a well quoted piece in So long and thanks for all the fish which runs "like trying to attack a lunatic asylum with a banana". That is pretty much the situation we have in this case. How can one resolve a dispute and achieve a collegial atmosphere with the examples shown above?

The underlying problem is the marked hostility and incivility of user:Viriditas, as demonstrated here: [], here: [], here: [], here:[], here: [], and here:  []. The user's comments were the subject of debate here as well: [] by user:Colchicum, and was admonished by an adminsitrator. I could go further, but the fact remains that user:Viriditas is a shockingly rude editor whose comments are, by an standard, not civil. I personally sought that the user act civilly here: [], which was removed on the user's talk page here:  []. The claim of "plaigarism" has been a constant accusation, yet when this claim was examined against user:Mosedschurte on the Content Noticeboard, it was found not to be plaigarism. See: []. Notwithstanding the finding that the cited material was not "plaigarism", user:Viriditas continues to make this claim against not only user:Mosedschurte, but against me as well without a shred of proof to support this allegation, and after one editor informed user:Viriditas the exact opposite. As for wikihounding and personal attacks, here is another example:.

My final wish is that the editor in question learn WP:CIV, stop WP:WIKIHOUNDING, and modify his or her behavior accordingly. Thank you.--Yachtsman1 (talk) 05:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by outside editors to Viriditas during the Wikihounding campaign

 * After User:Sifaka attempted to help Viriditas re her behavior regarding the RfCU, he/she was attacked and stated to Viriditas "I would also encourage you to be more civil in your replies. Because you have indicated it is unwelcome, I will cease providing help to you from now on unless you ask specifically." At the ANI board, in response to false charges of harassment regarding the filing of this RfCU, Sifaka told Viriditas "this RFC was filed correctly", "It would probably help if you posted a response at the RFC" and "Digging up unrelated content to cast aspersion on another editor often looks bad"
 * Regarding Viridtas' false sock puppet complaint filed against Wildhartlivie, User:Pinkadelica told Viriditas that his complaint was "one of the most obvious examples of fishing I've seen to date"
 * At the NPOV noticeboard at which Viriditas had filed yet another baseless complaint, noticeboard editor, User:Jaymax stated that "the (correct IMO) point was made repetitively by others that the content under debate best belonged in the conspiracy article - and User:Viriditas refusal to accept that seems to have consumed a lot of effort that could have been better spent improving that article and the short mention of it in the main article"
 * User:Vecrumba warned Viriditas on his/her talk page that "A bit less stridency and attack dog mentality (my perception on the receiving end) would go a long way. Unwillingness to accept good faith versions of situations (versus bad faith interpretations) and dealing with disagreements with belligerence (my perception on the receiving end) do no good for anyone in the end.". In addition, Vecrumbas warned "When one accosts the universe with the attitude that it is arrayed against them (my perception), it eventually realigns itself to meet expectations. Such alignments are never for the better". Also "This is counterproductive. If you have an issue or accusation, be direct and make it. Leave "interesting, no?" innuendo at the door."
 * After attacks on Vecrumba, Vecrumba noted "I did nothing to deserve being beaten about the head repeatedly as I was by Viriditas (my perception on the receiving end). I informed Viriditas of his misperception and the beatings continued for quite some time (my perception on the receiving end). I do not take kindly to being beaten about the editorial head. My two cents, editors aren't obliged to place any stock in my observations or advice." And also to Viriditas "Look, stop with the insults.  An exasperated Vecrumba further stated to Viriditas: "I'm also tired of anyone calling more than one editor perceived as being their editorial enemy part of a meat puppet conspiracy. I just came by to look at what else people have been working on looking to get away from some of the WP:BATTLEGROUND elsewhere and I run into you, apparently loaded for bear. If you rushed any faster to accuse editors of bad faith the sonic boom would be deafening — perhaps that's why you're not hearing me? I don't give a damn about your prior wars, don't make me part of them."
 * When Viriditas was threatening to file an alleged "sock puppet" compalint agaiinst Wildhartlivie, User:Roux told Viriditas "V, you're probably not helping your cause much here", "otherwise disengaging would seem to be the wise course" and "V... holding an SPI over someone's head is a really, really bad idea. To put it bluntly: put up or shut up; either file an SPI and see what it proves/disproves, or stop making the accusation, as that counts as personal attacks."
 * After Viriditas attacked me, User:Biophys told Viriditas "Please discuss subject of the article. Do not criticize a contributor."
 * Regarding Viriditas' false sock puppet complaint, User:Paine Ellsworth stated "This is a most ludicrous accusation."
 * User:Radeksz to Viriditas, regarding his/her tendentious editing: "Based on my previous discussion with you and what's found on this talk page it appears that your standard response to anyone who disagrees with you is some form of a very rude 'you're just not getting it' " Mosedschurte (talk) 01:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Continuing WP:Wikihounding after filing this RfCU
Unfortunately, the aggressive WP:Wikihounding has continued even after the creation of this RfCU. The entire matter has taken a turn from the aggressive to the bizarrely aggressive, and like the other editors, we just wish for the entire multi-page WP:Wikihounding campaign to stop.Mosedschurte (talk) 00:30, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Viriditas then opened a section on ANI claiming that this RfCU was created "in an effort to harass and intimidate me". Not surprisingly, yet another editor told Viriditas "this RFC was filed correctly", "It would probably help if you posted a response at the RFC" and "Digging up unrelated content to cast aspersion on another editor often looks bad".
 * The reality, of course, is that this RfCU on Viriditas was brought at the request of Administrators and editors, such as here, here and here.
 * In some odd further conspiracy theory, Viriditas then claimed that I am "the only connection" with editors from a "Diqwuren" arbcom case in which I have never been involved. I seriously doubt Wildhartlivie and Yachtsman1 were involved either.  A reach now that has gone beyond hostile to just plain disturbingly sad. As if this latest conspiracy theory could not have become more openly false, Viriditas then seriously claimed that my "connection" with this "Diqwuren" arbcom case was merely because I had edited World War II articles in the past.
 * Viriditas added even further attacks that Wildhartlivie, me and perhaps everyone else on the planet is involved in the "alleged use of sock puppets", with the "allegations" being Viriditas' own earlier false implications, of course, that several accounts were sock puppets. Viriditas then posted "You know, Wildhartlivie, at some point, you really need to know when to stop digging..."
 * In a blunderbuss attack, Viriditas stated that the RfC is attempting to "distract" from those bringing it being involved with "civil POV pushing, plagiarism, alleged use of sock puppets, and edit warring, tag teaming and back channel coordination".
 * Viriditas further accuses Yachstman1 of "plagarism", falsely claiming "I've already proven my claims repeatedly on the talk page of Talk:Human rights in the United States".

Viriditas, acting yet again in yet another accustion, has just now started an alleged "sock puppet" complaint against Wildhartlivie. Note that the alleged "sock puppet" was not involved in any way with Viriditas. Mosedschurte (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * NOTE - To clarify, the SPI was closed after 2 days with the conclusion "Having read through the discussion in entirety, I believe that these two users are different people. The supposed "conclusive evidence" provided by the IP means nothing; friends welcome each other on Wikipedia, and occasionally post to their talk pages, so this does not prove they are lying. Nothing further is needed." The only thing that was accomplished here was to cause needless stress and further disruption for myself and create a great distraction from anyone's attention to the RFC. This is part and parcel of the pattern of tenditousness, personal attacks and disruption created by Viriditas. Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:28, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Vecrumba (PētersV)
I came by my involvement with Viriditas unintentionally, having had some recent first-time positive exchanges with editor Mosedschurte. As is my habit regarding newly encountered editors, I looked at what they had been working on. Human rights in the United States piqued my interest based on my study of international treaties et al. and their effect on domestic law with regard to the Baltics—a mechanism which would be at work in any country, including my own—the US.

My first contribution was a comment and (some intervening diffs left out) my sentiments in more detail here.

A RfC was open (to include international or not) and I stated my editorial sentiments (I did sign immediately after). Note MishMich thought my suggestion was a “sensible compromise.″

My first interchange with Viriditas was responding to the conspiracy theorist diatribe (theirs above my response) attacking Mosedschurte... "same disruptive behavior as your predecessor"... "I have to wonder if there is any connection between you and him and others"... "I find it interesting that your tag team partner, Yachtsman1, created his user account just days before Raggz disappeared"... "What are the odds".. and so on. Disputing content by attacking editors and slinging innuendo about is all too common on Wikipedia—and so I indicated such postings were not productive and that Viriditas should make their accusations directly or desist, also adding a comment on their disparaging contention of "silliest." And so I received my first "put up or shut up" including accusations of "backchannel canvassing" by Mosedschurte and being bad-faith attacked as a meat puppet—myself knowing neither Viriditas nor their position nor (as I came to learn) their combativeness.

I'll leave out some of the intervening dialog seeing conspiracy (my perception) behind everything, including that my signature intentionally obfuscates my Wikipedia username and I and others represented a problem which would be "dealt with." Perhaps as my WP username is my real name—apparently a most unfortunate choice—I'd simply rather it not be spread all over the Internet in Wiki-clones.

In the end, I was, as the Brits say, “gobsmacked″ by the thread here where I expressed my disappointment at being beaten about the head by Viriditas—whose response was a request to provide diffs, to which I responded indicating if that was their attitude, I'd need to address in an appropriate forum, namely here, which I was aware of but had no appetite to participate in. ''This interchange, and its evidence that Viriditas is ignorant of their editorial conduct, is the sole reason I have felt it necessary to comment here. I have no stake in how this is resolved other than Human rights in the United States returning (if that is even the right word) to an atmosphere of spirited yet collegial editing.''

Separately, with minimal involvement on my part, I would also point editors to this litany of consparitorial bad faith here. PētersV     TALK 20:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Radeksz
My involvement with Viriditas was limited, thankfully, but it was enough to form a very negative opinion of the user. Basically it appears that Viriditas has some serious problems with ownership of some articles and when other editors step into "his" articles he reacts aggressively. In my case this was limited to verbal abuse and personal attacks but then again, I only made some limited edits on "his" article. I can easily see how the verbal abuse and PAs could have escalated into Wikihounding in the case of Mosedschurte who was much more involved in Human rights in the United States and who put up with a lot more than I did (I basically left it alone, figuring I don't need the headache - i.e. let Viriditas have his way. A bit lame of me, but we're all time constrained). Specifically, Viriditas made the following comments to me on the talk page of Human rights in the United States (link to proper archive here ): Additionally, Viriditas also insulted me on my talk page - which I then removed - by saying I'm going to drop this because you don't appear to understand what I have written, after accusing me of edit warring for making a SINGLE edit on the article.
 * please save the fallacies for someone a little more gullible. - assuming bad faith
 * This is very simple, so if you can't follow it, then ask someone for help. - obviously meant as an insult, hence a personal attack
 * You don't seem able to follow the discussion… but you have shown that you are intellectually dishonest. - combines the two above; insults/personal attack with lack of good faith
 * Radeksz pretended to be interested in discussing the issue, but his only interest was to find some way to discredit my point - more of the same

In my case, I figured it just wasn't worth bothering with, deleted Viriditas' insults from my talk page and moved on. However, combined with the evidence presented by Mosedschurte and others above, I think it's pretty clear that this user either does not understand Wikipedia policies on discussion, consensus building and most importantly civility and NPA, or chooses not to follow them. The fact that this kind of behavior can escalate from verbal abuse to Wiki-wide hounding of editors that disagree with him is pretty disturbing.radek (talk) 13:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Applicable policies and guidelines

 * Extensive multi-article WP:Wikihounding described above.
 * Gross violations of WP:Civil (all diffs above)
 * Numerous violations of WP:Harrassment, including baiting, (diffs above)
 * Overt violations of WP:TPO deleting Talk page comments (diffs and Admin action diff above)
 * Numerous WP:Edit Warring (diffs and admin action above). Mosedschurte (talk) 11:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Engaging in WP:No personal attacks violations described above.

Desired outcome
Anything that will make the Wikihounding end would be GREATLY appreciated, and I can't stress than enough. Some have suggested blocks of Viriditas, while perhaps an admonishment not to edit articles that I edit (excluding Human rights in the United States, which he/she had edited first) would do, as we have never before edited the same articles. Perhaps the same sort of protection for Yachtsman1.Mosedschurte (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be truly wonderful if the conduct described above could be related by an impartial observer and/or contributor to user:Viriditas as intolerable, and that he/she learns to respect WP:CIV, as opposed to edit warring and insulting others, without the need to take this matter to WP:ANI for a block. --Yachtsman1 (talk) 02:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)


 * Mosedschurte - Please understand, and I cannot stress this enough, that I have hestitated to bring this to attention of anyone who could take outside action for days, contemplating that it will just draw even more aggressive WP:Wikihounding from this editor. In addition to numerous requests on Talk pages, three days ago, I placed the following "Sincere Request" on this user's Talk page  stating "Honestly, this is not some attempt at snarky sarcasm by me, but a sincere request. just a consideration that we not let any dispute (between us, content or otherwise) spill over into other articles? . . .  I truly believe -- all B.S. aside, and no blame on either party in this particular statement -- that we would both be happier and more productive both on and off of Wikipedia without spending time and energy continuing disputes across multiple articles."  This was ignored.  I then yesterday again renewed my request with "Please, I wanted to renew the original request, a consideration that we not let any dispute (between us, content or otherwise) in Human rights in the United States spill over into other articles. We would both be happier and more productive both on and off of Wikipedia without spending time and energy continuing disputes across multiple articles.''"  This was again ignored.  Worse still, the open Wikihounding continued even after the filing of this RfCU.Mosedschurte (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yachtsman1 - Provided civility warning in May, 2009 . It was removed as "harassment" by Viriditas .  Numerous reminders to act civilily on Human rights in the United States have been ignored, and met with further insults.  trying to resolve this with the editor in question is impossible.--Yachtsman1 (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Wildhartlivie - Repeated requests in the Talk:Jonestown discussions to stop making personal attacks and bad faith claims. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of failing to resolve the dispute
(Provide diffs to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute.)
 * Mosedschurte - not only were both attempts at resolving the dispute on the editor's Talk Page days ago outlined above --here and here -- ignored, but so was every other attempt, and many of the above diffs occurred after these attempts.   Worse still, the open Wikihounding continued even after the filing of this RfCU.Mosedschurte (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yachtsman1 - Provided civility warning in May, 2009 . It was removed as "harassment" by Viriditas .  Numerous reminders to act civilily on Human rights in the United States have been ignored, and met with further insults.  trying to resolve this with the editor in question is impossible.--Yachtsman1 (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wildhartlivie - I specifically requested impartial review or requesting mediation very early in the talk page here. Viriditas flatly refused, saying "I completely disagree, as my concerns have been focused solely on the content of the article. You are the one who introduced the topic of editors, not me." I again requested dispute resolution here, saying "And for the record, please explain why you resist either requesting an independent and uninvolved editor to review this article or that dispute resolution be requested." That brought the response here in which that request was ignored. And yet again, I brought up the dispute resolution here, to which Viriditas responded here, saying "I'm sorry, but you are misinformed and seem to be deliberately changing the subject of my NPOV and factual accuracy concerns" and again ignored the suggestion of dispute resolution. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute.


 * Mosedschurte Mosedschurte (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yachtsman1 Yachtsman1 (Yachtsman1) (talk) 17:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wildhartlivie Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

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Additional users endorsing this cause for concern.


 * As stated above, my reason for commenting was direct evidence of an apparent lack of awareness on Viriditas' part of their conduct. Vecrumba (PētersV)    TALK 20:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Per my comment above.radek (talk) 13:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions
''Any users may post questions in this section. Answers should be reserved for those certifying the dispute.''

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Response
Note: The following message was added after this case was closed

See concerns raised about stealth canvassing at: Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list. This RfC was opened by User:Mosedschurte at 11:30 (UTC), 29 June 2009. Approximately one hour later, at 12:29 on June 29, 2009, User:Biophys used a closed private mailing list to invite subscribed users to comment here. [20090629-1229] List member User:Vecrumba received this e-mail and responded to the RfC at 20:00, 3 July. At 23:02, on July 11, list member User:Dc76 made an inquiry abut Mosedschurte on the list. [20090711-2302] Biophys responded at 23:20 describing Mosedschurte in favorable terms and pointed Dc76 to this RfC. [20090711-2320] This was the second time Biophys referred list members to this RfC. Subsequently, Dc76 arrived and responded to this RfC several hours later at 01:46, 12 July, and list member User:Radeksz responded at 13:01, 12 July. On July 14, Biophys informed the mailing list that he had sent e-mail back and forth with Mosedschurte, and according to Biophys, Mosedschurte needed help dealing with me.[20090714-1444] All evidence enclosed in brackets is accessible to arbcom. Viriditas (talk) 01:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Response to concerns
(note: this was first raised at ANI, where admins directed that it be raised instead at RfCU. In fairness to User Viriditas, this editor replied in that section, which can be read at the above link until he/she comments here.)

{Add summary here.}

Applicable policies and guidelines
List the policies and guidelines that apply to the response.



Questions
''Any users may post questions in this section. Answers should be reserved for the user named in the dispute.''

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Outside view
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

Outside view by User:Dc76
''I am an outsider. I stumbled upon this because I was looking for a past contribution on some other subject, which I still can't find, but that's my problem. Now, since I spent about 40 minutes reading some of the above, I humbly drop my two cents. I would like, here and now, to state that I haven't read and checked all links. I just checked a few selected things. But I stumbled upon a "dialog" in a talk page that IMHO is very eloquent, and humbly would like to share it with you. Enjoy it: ''


 * Viriditas: I'm adding to this passage, as no page number is provided for reference 6 and reference seven goes to this link which doesn't say anything at all.
 * Wildhartlivie: Reference 7 just needed the link updated.
 * Viriditas: I still want to verify the material because there is no page number provided, so you shouldn't have removed the tag. It's ok, though, I'll add instead.
 * Wildhartlivie: Excuse me, but if you want to verify the source on the link (...) then click it. The statement it is sourcing is on that page. There is no need for a page number because the page is right there. How about you check it before you suggest what I shouldn't have done? When you tag a source, do not make assumptions when someone fixes the issue you've tagged.
 * Viriditas: Please take a deep breath and calm down. I added the "page needed" link in regard to (...), not the (...). In any case, the question at hand is, does the source support the material? As far as I can tell, not really. The (...) website says, "(...)'s perception of (...)’s intractable racism was strong enough to make him want to move (...)." It does not say, "After (...) received considerable criticism in Indiana for his integrationist views" he then moved (...)".

''I don't know how about you, but I read it as: "Need source to say 2+2=4." "Yes, but it is not clear on which page that is written." "Yes, but we needed 2+2=4 not in the case of apples, but of peers. In any case, the question is the source only says 4-2=2." Interpreted this way it is actually very funny. But I imagine it is not at all funny if you are the one being Wikihounded with such objections. Again, I am basing this only on a partial read of the evidence in this case. We should not waste our time with such non-sense and rather concentrate on more productive things. This is why I refuse to read more of such non-sense dialogs, it's clear they are all the same. Dc76\talk 01:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)''

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view by
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Proposed solutions
''This section is for all users to propose solutions to resolve this dispute. This section is not a vote and resolutions are not binding except as agreed to by involved parties. ''

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 * Comment by parties: It would be truly wonderful if the conduct described above could be related by an impartial observer and/or contributor to user:Viriditas as intolerable, and that he/she learns to respect WP:CIV, as opposed to edit warring and insulting others, without the need to take this matter to WP:ANI for a block. --Yachtsman1 (talk) 19:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment by others:

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Reminder to use the talk page for discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.