Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/DemirBajraktarevic/Archive

18 November 2014

 * Suspected sockpuppets




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Sabahudin9 registered only a couple of weeks after DemirBajraktarevic was banned. The topic they both edit is Bosnia and Herzegovina and particularly sevdalika singers (Interaction analysis). Both are focused to push nationalist Bosnian point of view (i.e. diff for Sabahudin9 proclaiming sevdalinka songs as something Bosnian and for DB attacking living person for not bragging about her Bosniak ethnicity). Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Both editors are focused on articles about Mirsada Mirjana Bajraktarević (hist), Dina Bajraktarević (hist) and Silvana Armenulić (born Zilha Bajraktarević) (hist). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:34, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments by other users
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.''

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

 * Struggling to see a conclusive link here, with a few weeks between accounts. Could be a coincidence? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (Message me) 00:02, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with Chase, I don't really see a strong behavioral connection between the two accounts. I'm closing this case with no action taken for the time being. Mike V  •  Talk  22:53, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

04 April 2015

 * Suspected sockpuppets




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The users have the same area of interest, editing Bosnian songs, singers and albums. Demir's page before being blocked - Sabahudin's current page. Also. Demir got banned somewhere on 13 January 2014, and Sabahudin9 opened his account on 4 February 2014.

Another thing, both users are deleting Serbian cyrillic at almost every article they find, and are constantly involved in edit warring over this issue. For example, user Demir had problem with removing Serbian cyrillic here, here, here, here; user Sabahudin does the same, like here, here, or here.

Also, some of them edit summaries are very similar...

Demir's edit summaries:


 * there hasn't been an OFFICIAL census since 1991
 * the last official census took place in 1991... there is also one currently being done
 * Well Trebinje is in BOSNIA, therefore SERBIAN Cyrillic should not be used on this wiki
 * Serbian Cyrillic in Serbia, just Cyrillic in Bosnia
 * Serbo-Croatian does not exist anymore
 * Bosnian is a separate language, you nationalist Serb. Explain why your POV brain believes that the short-lived made-up language "Serbo-Croatian" should be used on this wiki

Sabahudin's edit summaries:


 * no official census since 1991... the results of the 2013 census will be known sometime this year
 * fixed census info and removed the 2001 and 2013 census'... there was no official census in 2001 and the results of the '13 census are not yet known officially
 * Bosnian also uses the Cyrillic script. Cyrillic is not just Bosnian. This surname belongs to both Bosnians and Serbians. There is Cyrillic all over Bosnia-Herzegovina
 * the Bosnian language alsos uses the Cyrillic script. Cyrillic is all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is not only Serbian. Since this man was Bosnian-Herzegovinian, Bosnian will stay
 * "Serbo-Croatian" does not exist anymore and is not used
 * Reverting Serb nationalistic POV vandalism

Both users were very active in replacing "Muslim" with "Bosniak.

Demir's examples:


 * here
 * here
 * here
 * here

Sabahudin's examples:


 * here
 * here
 * here

And also, an exactly same edit - (Sabahudin) -  (The Destroyer Of Nyr). The Destroyer of Nyr was active for a month or so, but had the same area of interest and the same modus operandi. Yerevani Axjik (talk) 16:26, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, I just saw the archive, User:Antidiskriminator initiated an earlier investigation against Sabahudin9. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 20:36, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Comments by other users
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.''


 * I just came across this while looking into Yerevani Axjik's opinion (from our conversations on User talk:EdJohnston) that I and User:The Destroyer Of Nyr are sockpuppets of User:DemirBajraktarevic. First things first: If that person made a second account, why make a third one? I made my account on 6 February 2014 when the 2014 unrest in Bosnia and Herzegovina had just started. The inspiration behind me making an account was to contribute to this topic -- which I did by creating wikis for the protests and several politicians who were forced to resign during the protests including Hamdija Lipovača, Sead Čaušević, Suad Zeljković and very recently I made a wiki for Munib Husejnagić, who was also forced to resign last year. The Destroyer Of Nyr made their account in January 2015 and edited for two months before being blocked. If that person made this account, there is no logical reason to make a third account. If you take a look at The Destroyer Of Nyr's contributions, they edited the wikis of Bosnian political parties, which frankly bore me (politicians don't, but politics do). I did make my account one month after User:DemirBajraktarevic was blocked, but so did a thousand other people. Aside from a spat here and there, I have not had problems with many people on here until Yerevani Axjik and I began getting into arguments about their edits on Bosnia-Herzegovina-related articles, which I disagreed with. As Yerevani Axjik had highlighted, the three of us share similar opinions, but so do a thousand other people. That doesn't mean that that user was going around making multiple accounts to edit random articles. Yerevani Axjik's highlights show that this user said Serbian Cyrillic in Serbia, just Cyrillic in Bosnia, meaning they believe that Serbian Cyrillic is known as Serbian Cyrillic only in Serbia and just as Cyrillic in Bosnia. My comparable edit over a year later is the Bosnian language also uses the Cyrillic script. Cyrillic is all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is not only Serbian., meaning that Both the Serbian and Bosnian languages use the same Cyrillic script and it can both be called Serbian Cyrillic and Bosnian Cyrillic. These are two similar, but different, opinions. This user and I do have something in common, our attempts to put the "Serbo-Croatian" language to rest. It was used in Yugoslavia, which does not exist anymore. Most Bosniaks now say they speak Bosnian, Serbs have Serbian, etc. It's a common opinion that Serbo-Croatian is a thing of the past. Also highlighted were my edits where I removed unofficial census information from 2001 and 2005, with the reason being that the last official Bosnian census was in 1991 and the 2013 census numbers haven't yet been released. I'm not the only person who talked about the census on here. this edit on Republika Srpska by User:Serbianawesome22 also mentions the census. I could find more examples but I hope it's not necessary. I feel that User:Yerevani Axjik was mad at me and tried finding anything they could to damage my good reputation on this website. I could easily go through the edits on several articles and find blocked Serb editors and compare their edits to Yerevani Axjik's but that wouldn't get anybody anywhere. I have been editing wikipedia for 14 months with very few problems with my fellow editors. I have created over 110 good articles about a variety of topics including 2014 unrest in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cazin rebellion, Husino rebellion, Zvornik Castle, Djevojka sa juga, Maya Berović, Filip Kljajić, Milica Pavlović, Emina Zečaj, Hamdija Lipovača, List of Bosniaks in music and List of Bosniak writers, among many others. Like I said, I have had very few problems on here until my arguments with Yerevani Axjik and I would hate to see 14 months, 110+ detailed articles and all this hard work come to an end if somebody actually takes these accusations seriously. --Sabahudin9 (talk) 10:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps thousands of other people have created their wiki accounts since Demir was blocked, but you're the only one who created account after his block and continued to edit the very same pages he did. I wasn't mad, it's WP's policy that you cannot abusively use multiple accounts, mad or not, such things must be reported. As for I know, Demir was blocked in January and perhaps gained interest in editing Wikipedia once again after the February protests. And you had problems with other editors, similar problems you had with me -, , , etc. Ofcourse, this isn't important, but still. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 13:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This accusation came out of left-field. I don't even know how you connected me and these blocked users. Yes we have similar, but different, opinions - so do a zillion other people. I can't imagine anybody actually taking this seriously. This is frustrating. No I'm not User:DemirBajraktarevic (my name is Sabahudin Beslija, not Demir Bajraktarevic) and no I'm not User:The Destroyer Of Nyr. Like I said, this is frustrating.--Sabahudin9 (talk) 04:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't see a reason why this should frustrate you or anyone else. Apparently, I'm not the only one who made such connection. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 16:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I might add that both Demir and Sabahudin insisted that Aleksa Šantić isn't a Serb, but Bosnian Serb. Both users see this somehow to be different than Serb. For example, Demir insisted in September 2013 that Šantić isn't a Serb but "Bosnian Serb". He did so several times -. Sabahudin did this in April 2015 -, ,. Interestingly, both users insist that Šantić wrote in Bosnian, and not in Serbian language. Even though the claim is baseless, it is interesting how both users insist on it (Demir's claim; Sabahudin's claims:, , ). --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 01:03, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Because he WAS. You literally just went onto his wiki and replaced "Bosnian Serb" with "Serb" to prove your point see this edit. Everybody else agreed that this man was born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, raised there, spent his entire life there, and died there... he was a Bosnian Serb, it's fact not an opinion. You explanation for your removal of "Bosnian Serb" on his wiki was "Šantić contributed greatly to the whole Serbian culture, therefore canot be exclusively described as a Bosnian Serb poet, since he was a member of the Serbian Royal Academy and was active in Serbia as well." So if Barack Obama joined the Serbian Royal Academy, he would be Serbian? Logical.--Sabahudin9 (talk) 03:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Your view of Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina as being something different than rest of the Serbs is unique to you and Demir, therefore I have mentioned this interesting fact. Insisting on him not being just Serb, but Bosnian Serb is indeed so unusual. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 00:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * See: Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the lead reads "They are frequently referred to as Bosnian Serbs in English, regardless of whether they are from Bosnia or Herzegovina." Santic was a Serb from Herzegovina. Also, based on this edit by User:23 editor, who may as well also be accused of being a sockpuppet for not agreeing with you, reverted our edits to the plain and simple, factual term Bosnian Serb. --Sabahudin9 (talk) 05:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, after your attempt to avoid mentioning that he was a Serb writer, which he undoubtedly was, after my comment that he died in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (changed its name in 1929). You would insist that Dositej Obradović wasn't a Serb, but a Romanian Serb. Anyhow, this is not a discussion about your edits, and moreover, your insisting that Šantić wrote in Bosnian language, the same claim that Demir made two years ago (!) is interesting as well. It is very rare that two different users insist on such ridiculous claim. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 14:27, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You seem to have difficulty understanding that Aleksa Santic was a Bosnian Serb. A Serb from Bosnia and Herzegovina who spent his entire life in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm not denying he was a Serb. He was a Bosnian Serb. Everybody else agrees with that except you. User:23 editor and multiple others who have edited Santic's wiki haven't removed Bosnian Serb from the opening. Also, I never said he wrote exclusively in the Bosnian language, I said that Emina was written in the Bosnian dialect of the Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian language, which it was. Again, it's fact, not opinion.--Sabahudin9 (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * No, you actually multiple times said he wrote in Bosnian language - "...the poem was writen in Bosnian language"; "The poem is about a Bosnian girl and is written in the Bosnian language". Again, it is very incredible that two different users would make such wrong and ridiculous claim. However, there's no such thing as a "Bosnian dialect", you made that thing up after my statement that the term Bosnian is political, and not linguistic, however, even after this you continued with your claim that Šantić wrote in Bosnian language. Besides, the wording of you and Demir is hardly a coincidence:


 * "Yes but he was from Bosnia and Herzegovina. I would think where he was born, raised, lived, died is the what defines him.. not what academy he was part of?" - Sabahudin
 * "he was not a Serbian national. he was born in, lived in, and died in Bosnia, which was a part of the Ottoman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia during his lifetime" - Demir


 * --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I specifically said that THIS POEM was written in the Bosnian language, which it was. I never said that he wrote exclusively in the Bosnian language. By Bosnian dialect, I meant the dialect spoken by Bosniaks and even Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina. My biological grandmother is a Serb named Jovanka born in Sabac, raised in Bijeljina and she speaks like the rest of my family, mostly Bosniaks. So stating facts about Aleksa Santic, like that he spent his entire life in BiH, with two years separating the two edits, is proof that I'm this guy. He and I HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NAMES. We are obviously both Bosniaks and interested in our ethnic group and country, but come on, seriously, so are a million other people. You're a Serb, I'm assuming and you edit Serb-related article and are interested in your people and your culture. I could compare your edits to multiple other users'.--Sabahudin9 (talk) 06:00, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok, you're being funny now. He wrote a poem in Bosnian language, but he himself wrote in what language? Like there's difference between Serbian and Bosnian language, especially when you're in Banja Luka. You would claim that Serbs in Montenegro also speak Bosnian, since they don't use ekavian yat reflex? :) I don't care about your family tree, neither should you be interested in my nationality. Also, one question, what language do Serbs speak in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and is Šantić's poem somewhat different from what they usually speak? Thanks. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 14:42, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Alright well I tried and have gotten nowhere with you. By the way, smiley faces in arguments aren't cute. Goodbye--Sabahudin9 (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for saying that, I won't use them in future discussions with you. --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 19:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * This is a good example where should be applied WP:BOOMERANG. User reports others for behaviour which is done by himself. --Munja-x86 (talk) 20:06, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Not exactly. Also, I must report, User Sabahudin9 changed his name to User:Dragodol. --AnulBanul (talk) 03:23, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, but if you click on User:Sabahudin9, it redirects to User:Dragodol. It's not illegal to change your name - you do it frequently.--Dragodol (talk) 17:36, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Ofcourse, ofcourse... who said it's "illegal"? :D --AnulBanul (talk) 19:57, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * "Of course" - two separate words. Just trying to help your with you English. That's also something that's not illegal. :D--Dragodol (talk) 05:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Right... --AnulBanul (talk) 05:54, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments
— Berean Hunter   (talk)  13:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * - - To compare  and .  Vanjagenije   (talk)  09:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Sabahudin9 and The Destroyer Of Nyr appear to be ❌. As the master account is, any connection between DemirBajraktarevic and Sabahudin9 needs to be based upon behavioral evidence. Mike V • Talk 05:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Closing as inconclusive.