Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+/Archive

06 July 2015

 * Suspected sockpuppets


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The two suspected socks reverted the same material as Rolandi+ almost immediately afterward.


 * Rolandi+:
 * Walkingtallmachinegunman:
 * Drejtesiaime:

This is not a high-traffic article, and it's suspicious that brand new users would just come along and make identical reverts to a (slightly) longer-standing user. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 06:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Comments by other users
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Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

 * Technically, the three accounts are ❌. However, some of the IPs used are suspicious.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Huh. Well, then, I'll mark the case for closure, and my apology to Rolandi+ for the incorrect assumption of socking. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 18:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

31 October 2015

 * Suspected sockpuppets




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Rolandi+ was a disruptive national advocacy account. He received a 32h block due to edit warring [] and an edless discussion about his topic ban took place in July []. He suddenly vanished in Oct. 2 []. A few days latter (Oct. 9 []) user:NobleFrog emerged.

1. Rolandi paradoxically couldn't learn how to use space after comma & fullspot (both in text and in edit-summaries) [][][][][][][]. He was also adviced to avoid this [][[[]]]. No wonder Noblefrog shares the same weird habbit: [] and [] [].

2. Both accounts edit the same variety of articles (in most cases same parts of the same articles), some striking examples:
 * Voisava Tripalda: RO: [][][], NOB: [][][]
 * Dance of Zalongo: RO: [][], NOB: []
 * Himara: RO: [][], NOB: []
 * Vrana Konti RO: [], NOB []
 * Ali Pasha: RO: [][], NOB: [][]
 * Raoul Bova: RO: [], NOB: [][]
 * Laskarina Bouboulina: Ro: [], NOB: []

3. Rolandi closely followed user:Zoupan and usually adjusted (or reverted) his edits as part of his edit-warring fashion: RO: [][][], so does NobleFrog: [], [],[]

4. Repeats the same expression in discussions when accusing co-editors or defending himself: RO: the only thing you want is Balsic family to be serb, not to use facts, the only thing Athenean wants is to lie about me., the only thing they say is that my references are always "POV" and "manifesto", The only thing I need is a last chance,not a topic block., the only thing he wants is my block and so does NOB: The only uncostructive thing is your nationalist source

The above evidence appears striking and leaves no doubt about wp:DUCK, a CU will just confirm this. Alexikoua (talk) 20:49, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments by other users
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Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments
✅, blocked, tagged, closing.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:30, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

28 December 2015

 * Suspected sockpuppets




 * User compare report Auto-generated every hour.
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Comments by other users
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.''

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

 * The following accounts are ✅ to :
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've blocked all the accounts. I'd appreciate it if a clerk would copy the list to Sockpuppet investigations/Rolandi+ and tag all of them.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Copied from Sockpuppet investigations/AlbertBikaj, tagging and closing.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets



 * Tools: Editor interaction utility • Interaction Timeline • User compare report Auto-generated every hour.

Like the earlier socks, Ktrimi991 focuses almost exclusively on Albanian-related topics, and a very narrow range of Albanian topics, at that. Editor Interaction Analyser reveals that Rolandi+ and Ktrimi have converged on dozens of the same articles over the years. This normally wouldn't be a big deal (since they edit the same topic area) were it not for the numerous similarities between the two accounts.

The last of the Rolandi socks was banned in March 2016. The Ktrimi account was created in 2012 and made several edits on sq.wiki but didn't make a single edit on en.wiki until 4 June 2016. Although at first glance I thought Rolandi and Ktrimi were unrelated, closer scrutiny would suggest otherwise. Ktrimi's English has improved significantly over the years. Take this interaction from 2016, for instance. Or this one from that same year. Ktrimi clearly has a better grasp of English today. Another thing to note is that Rolandi had spacing issues, which don't appear with Ktrimi's edits. However, these spacing issues almost completely went away for Rolandi's later socks as the sockmaster became more adept at editing, as per their own admission here. With that said, here are some of the more notable quacks:


 * 1) Both Rolandi and Ktrimi use "sth" to mean "something". Rolandi:   Ktrimi:   Other users have noticed this quirk and have asked Ktrimi to clarify what "sth" means.
 * 2) Rolandi and Ktrimi have mocked other users by sarcastically quipping: "You are very intelligent". Rolandi: Ktrimi:  Ktrimi and one of the other socks have also mocked other users by saying, "poor you." : "Oh poor you"  Ktrimi: "Poor you Antidiskriminator."
 * 3) Both Rolandi and Ktrimi have made the exact same misspelling of consensus, writing it as "concensus". Rolandi:    Ktrimi:
 * 4) Both Rolandi and Ktrimi tend to write "except of" instead of "except for". Rolandi: "This is what the references says (except of these sources here)." "Except of Sufflay,Madgearu is the only source I know that questions the Albanian claim..."  Lazarati: "...all socks were mine except of Tiran123."  Ktrimi: "A discussion was held and all participating editors, except of you, supported..."  "...I somehow do not have any other way to waste my time except of giving too much importance to you."  "I made some proposals, but except of Calthinus nobody responded."
 * 5) Both Rolandi and Ktrimi have used the expression "look on" instead of "look at". Rolandi: "Why do I need to have a look on your edits..." Ktrimi: "...have a look on Wikipedia guidelines."  "Have a look on their edits."  "...have a look on their history."
 * 6) Rolandi's socks and Ktrimi have all incorrectly used the word "firstly" as an ordinal, rather than as an adverb. Of course, it isn't supposed to be used as an ordinal (you're supposed to just say "first"). Rolandi: :     Ktrimi:
 * 7) Rolandi sock and Ktrimi have both used the following identical phrasing. Lostrigot: "I'm a new editor and I reported two user who have edit-warred between them since a long time ."  Ktrimi: "I have been seeing your contributions on various articles, mainly reverting non-constructive edits, since a long time and I appreciate them..."
 * 8) NobleFrog and Ktrimi both have a habit of referring to semi-protection as " a semi-protection". NobleFrog: Ktrimi:
 * 9) Rolandi used the .al top-level domain when citing Google Books.  So has Ktrimi:    Ktrimi has also reinstated edits previously made by Rolandi.
 * 10) The various socks and Ktrimi have a habit of daring other users to report them. Rolandi: :  Ktrimi:
 * 11) And finally, both Rolandi and Ktrimi tend to end their messages with goodbye/bye when a dispute is getting heated. Rolandi: Ktrimi:

I realize that CU is going to be useless for a sockmaster as old as Rolandi, but I would like to know whether there are any sleeper accounts currently laying dormant. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC) Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments by other users
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.''
 * This is not the first time someone files an SPI against me, and this is not the first time AB writes such SPIs against long-time editors. My account is three years older than Rolandi+, so my account should be listed as suspected master and Rolandi+ as suspected sock. I have been participating at and organizing Wikimedia activities - such as meetings and conferences - in Kosovo, Albania and North Macedonia since 2012, and this can be verified by Wikimedia volunteers and staff who have been collaborating in those countries during the years. If need be, I can give a list of people who know me personally since 2012 and can prove this. The "common" things between me and Rolandi+ are common English expressions or common mistakes by non-native speakers of English (example "except of" has been used in 3079 cases on enwiki pages). I use "consensus, not "concensus". Those are specific cases are due to writing quickly, and in many times on the phone. In any case, "concensus" has been used in 18139 cases on enwiki. "Sth" for "something" is not even a mistake . I use in my posts "AFAIK", "IMHO", "btw", "ASAP", "ofc" and especially "IMO". Rolandi+ did not (if it happens that I am mistaken and indeed Rolandi+ used them, one should post diffs). "You are very intelligent" was not taunting. The other editor finally chose to open an RfC rather than cause an edit war as usually! As for "goodbye", I have never used "goodbye", and I used "bye" only in 3 or 4 cases in recent months after years of editing! And that after an editor I interact with in an almost daily basis used it in several cases - can post diffs if needed. When I want to close posts with kind words, in 99.99% of cases I use "Cheers", has Rolandi+ ever used "Cheers"? Instead, I can see "Best Regards" being used by him all the time. Other Balkan editors I can mention here use "cheers", "best" etc. Now look at the list of articles edited by me and by Rolandi+ by number of edits . Part of the main focus for me have been Kosovo, Albanian-Ottoman conflicts and non-Albanian Yugoslavia conflicts. Not for Rolandi+. Rolandi+ apparently did not make a single edit on non-Albanian Yugoslavia conflicts articles. Examples include: Kosovo Liberation Army (Ktrimi 75 edits, Rolandi+ 0 edits), Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia (Ktrimi 71 edits, Rolandi+ 0 edits), Albanian National Awakening (Ktrimi 46 edits, Rolandi+ 0 edits), Ustaše (Ktrimi 45 edits, Rolandi+ 0 edits), Great Migrations of the Serbs (Ktrimi 44 edits, Rolandi+ 0 edits), Congress of Dibër (K 26 edits, R 0 edits), Destruction of Serbian heritage in Kosovo (20 vs 0), Convention of Mat (21 vs 0) and I can cite many more. Rolandi+ edited many football articles, I have never done so. Among the 20 most edited articles by Rolandi+, 11 have never been edited by me. Cham Albanians is the most edited article by Rolandi+ (24 edits) but my only edits there were in May 2020  - after four years of editing on enwiki. Vasile Lupu too is the most edited article by Rolandi+ (24 edits) but I have never edited it. Another article, Ghica family, is the fourth most edited article by Rolandi+ (19 edits) but I have never edited it. The fifth most edited article by Rolandi+ is Arvanites (16 edits) but my first edit there was in 2019, after 3 years of editing on enwiki . From the 20 most edited articles by me, 14 were never edited by Rolandi+. From 994 articles edited by me, only 47 (less then 5%) were edited by Rolandi+. From 280 articles edited by Rolandi+, I have edited only 17% of them. This although I have been editing on enwiki for 6 years Albania and other Balkan articles. The common articles among the 20 most edited ones are common articles among Albania-focused editors. As far as I can see, Rolandi+ wrote much stuff in a positive light about the Ottoman-Albanian relations. I have created 27 articles, almost all dedicated to Albanian conflicts with the Ottomans (btw, unlike me Rolandi+ never created a single article). Another big difference is linked with articles not related to the Balkans. Rolandi+ wrote a good amount of stuff for such articles. He (and his socks) continuously contributed to a fair number of such articles with new content. My edits on such articles are not addition of content but reverts. In a few cases (maybe twice in 2018, and once or twice in 2019 and 2020 each) I did some new changes patrol where I found disruptive edits on the new changes feed page, reverted and warned editors. The only case where I have written content for such an article was on Music of Prince Edward Island in late 2018. I found it at AfD where I participate once in a while . From a quick look I can see cases where I took the opposite stance he took. There I removed content added by Rolandi+ . Rolandi+ insisted on removing the demographics map from Greater Albania  and I opposed its removal some time ago . The editors below noted other such cases. Rolandi+ removed the designation "Kosovar"  from Behgjet Pacolli in 2015. I added it back after an IP removed it again in 2020 . This concerns the heated debate among Albanians because many Albanians think that the word "Kosovar" separates Albanians in Kosovo from other Albanians in the Balkans. In another case a sock of Rolandi+  claimed that the Crnojevic family were of Albanian origin. There  I explain that they were of Serbian origin. Rolandi's sock supports the Albanian nationalist narrative about that family, and I support the academic consensus (Serbian origin). These are not minor things but things that divide Albanians and even involve some ideology differences. There are cases where although we do not edit the same article I support the opposite view from the one hold by Rolandi+. Rolandi+ made a great effort to highlight the Albanian character of Ali Pasha who is seen by many Albanian nationalists as a "hero" who founded an "Albanian state" in the early 19th century . On the other hand I once mentioned Ali Pasha as an example of a false "hero" of Albanian nationalist narratives . During all these years my main focus have been Kosovo and Yugoslavia conflicts (at least until a few months ago after most editors there got topic banned and I started to lose interest in editing an area with almost no editor to discuss your ideas with). Rolandi+ did not have his focus on Kosovo, and I doubt he ever edited non-Albanian Yugoslavia stuff (feel free to find 5 diffs to prove the opposite). The convergence which I supposedly share with Rolandi+ involves common Albanian and Balkan topics, which one way or another many users have dabbled with. The same convergence can be seen when comparing Rolandi+ and AB   and many others with Rolandi+. It's nothing unusual or restricted to just two users. The case of the Macedonians article cited above as a "common edit" is the case of an article with much attention from editors due to Balkan nationalist disputes between Macedonians and Greeks and I rv the removal of content from the very first sentence. The content had been there based on community consensus since much earlier than Rolandi+ and I created our accounts. A question out of curiosity for a CU if there is one interested in giving a response. If I was the sockmaster of Rolandi+ wouldn't that show up in all the CUs about Rolandi+ over the years since my account was created 3 years before Rolandi+? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Given the sheer breadth of similarities, there is basically nothing you can say at this point to demonstrate that you and Rolandi are not the same person. The reason I stopped at around a dozen quacks (there are many, many more) was as a courtesy to the closing admin, who might otherwise feel overwhelmed by a enormous wall of text. Rest assured, there is a lot more stuff. For example:
 * Rolandi: "This is your own problem." Ktrimi: ""Greater Albania" is your own problem."  "Well, if you do not want to discuss it is your own problem."
 * Rolandi: "If you don't have anything else to say..." Ktrimi: "...if you do not have anything else to say..."
 * "On the article" instead of "in the article". Rolandi: Ktrimi:
 * Hence, I'm going to stop responding and let the admins do their job. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:07, 18 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ktrimi991 is active on Wikipedia for 10 years. Any SPI about him should have some serious arguments.
 * Amanuensis has about the same number of common articles with Rolandi+. Edits on common articles are nothing but that. I have 500 edits and I have about 20 common articles with Rolandi+ The articles which are supposed to show the deep connection between Rolandi+ and Ktrimi991 are that common. Connecting two users because they've said "bye" or "have a look" is not even an argument. More checks: 1091 "a semi-protection" Albanian users will have .al top-level domain. Why is this even present in a report about a user who has been for 10 years in Wikipedia?
 * Amanuensis has presented Ktrimi991 as being a sock of Rolandi+ but totally ignores the fact that Ktrimi991's account is several years older than Rolandi+. Why would Ktrimi991 create another account? He was not banned and in the time that both were active on Wikipedia nobody considered them to be the same person. If Ktrimi = Rolandi+ would not previous CUs indicate it? I see that Ktrimi991 was reported in 2017 as a sock of another user. Would not the CU then show the connection with Rolandi+?
 * Amanuensis has an AE warning about tendentious editing. He has reported other senior Albanian editors in the past with very similar arguments. His comment to Ktrimi991 that "Given the sheer breadth of similarities, there is basically nothing you can say at this point to demonstrate that you and Rolandi are not the same person" shows the same attitude as the comment he made against whom he reported as a sock/sockmaster of random users. The jig is up. No jig was up as nobody was a sock, but it seems that Amanuensis has opened another such report. Durraz0 (talk) 21:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One more bizarre thing is the number of views for this page. Last year in some days it had 1 or 2 views, apparently someone was preparing an SPI. The only exception was on November the 22nd, when this page had 7 views . A day earlier, on 21st of nobember, Khirurg was blocked for various issues including personal attacks against several editors including Ktrimi. AB and Khirurg have a long record of holding the same position even in votes in RfCs and RMs opened by Khirurg or staunchly supported by him that are far away from AB's topics of interest . It should also be noted that Khirurg has asked for Ktrimi to receive sanctions in ANI in a report which was supported by someone from WikiProject Serbia who is now topic banned. This person in the report that got him banned was supported by Khirurg and AB.  Suggestions by admins were made that both Khirurg and AB could receive a topic ban, but only AB was warned eventually. This may need admin attention in AE and cannot be treated as it should be in SPI but I am mentioning the network of relations and wikipolitics to show that the report is deeply embedded in Balkan politics and does not have a neutral, non-biased context. The people who are reporting Ktrimi as the sock of a long-forgotten edit-warrior in 2015 after many years of knowing Ktrimi cannot have just realized now that he must have a connection to the sock. The design of the report is such that it strengthens the many questions which surround it. A report interested in uncovering the truth would not bypass content evidence. The more Ktrimi explains about his edits and Rolandi's, the more obvious the big gap between them becomes. A report interested in uncovering the truth would not skip all that so quickly to just rely on if they have ever used "look on" or "goodbye". *:Durraz0 (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * One more bizarre thing is the number of views for this page. Last year in some days it had 1 or 2 views, apparently someone was preparing an SPI. The only exception was on November the 22nd, when this page had 7 views . A day earlier, on 21st of nobember, Khirurg was blocked for various issues including personal attacks against several editors including Ktrimi. AB and Khirurg have a long record of holding the same position even in votes in RfCs and RMs opened by Khirurg or staunchly supported by him that are far away from AB's topics of interest . It should also be noted that Khirurg has asked for Ktrimi to receive sanctions in ANI in a report which was supported by someone from WikiProject Serbia who is now topic banned. This person in the report that got him banned was supported by Khirurg and AB.  Suggestions by admins were made that both Khirurg and AB could receive a topic ban, but only AB was warned eventually. This may need admin attention in AE and cannot be treated as it should be in SPI but I am mentioning the network of relations and wikipolitics to show that the report is deeply embedded in Balkan politics and does not have a neutral, non-biased context. The people who are reporting Ktrimi as the sock of a long-forgotten edit-warrior in 2015 after many years of knowing Ktrimi cannot have just realized now that he must have a connection to the sock. The design of the report is such that it strengthens the many questions which surround it. A report interested in uncovering the truth would not bypass content evidence. The more Ktrimi explains about his edits and Rolandi's, the more obvious the big gap between them becomes. A report interested in uncovering the truth would not skip all that so quickly to just rely on if they have ever used "look on" or "goodbye". *:Durraz0 (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I am an admin on Albanian Wikipedia and I have known Ktrimi for many years on en.wiki. There is no doubt from my experience that he and Rolandi+ are not the same person. Some expressions such as "if you do not have anything else to say" and "I have nothing else to say" are common phrases in Albanian (nuk/s' kam çfarë të them më shumë/tepër, nuk/s' kam gjë tjetër të them/me thëne), while others are recurrent mistakes typical of non-native English speakers. The diffs brought as similarities are superficial and don't reflect the many differences between Ktrimi and Rolandi. Many editors interested in Albanian-related topics have written content for articles which have been written by Rolandi+ too. But in partucular, Ktrimi and Rolandi show several differences that can't relate the two accounts to the same person. The evidence is provided by their specific interests, which from an Albanian perspective are very different, the most clear of them being the focus on Kosovo-related and Yugoslavia-related topics, in which Ktrimi is much more involved. On the contrary, Rolandi+ seems to be much more interested in southern/tosk-Albanian related topics. Accusing long established editors like Ktrimi of socking needs concrete evidence, and in this investigation it has not been provided. – Βατο (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

.
 * Comment
 * While an individual speech idiosyncrasy or grammatical error ("concensus", "sth", etc...) is not a smoking gun by itself, we're talking here about well over a dozen identical speech quirks between Rolandi+ and Ktrimi. Frankly, the likelihood that two users that: a) share virtually identical speech patterns, b) edit the same topic area, and c) one user starts editing en.wiki precisely 6 months (the length of time CU logs are stored?) after the previous sock gets indeffed are two distinct individuals, is astronomically small.
 * But wait, there's more: Both accounts have a habit of misspelling "Oops" as "Opps" or somesuch variant: Lazarati: "oopppssss" Ktrimi: "Ooppss.", Lazarati: "oppppsssss"  Ktrimi: "Oppps.".
 * I note that some have tried to explain away the speech quirks as direct translations from Albanian, and while this may be the case for a couple of them, there are simply too many, and things like "sth" and "opps" are definitely NOT "mistranslations" (not to mention the whole "You are very intelligent" taunting).
 * There is also strong anti-Serb stuff like this: Ktrimi: It is not your fault, everyone knows what means to come from a country like Serbia, a society which is mostly famous for nationalism and propaganda. Rolandi: I don't have time to kill with a brainwashed serb.
 * Ktrimi asked for five diffs of Rolandi editing "non-Albanian Yugoslavian stuff". Well, that's not hard to find at all:
 * Ktrimi's 2016 restoration of Rolandi's 2015 edit  at Macedonians (ethnic group) is very convincing.
 * Regarding the claim that Ktrimi mainly edits Kosovo articles, and Rolandi did not, I would say that over the last few years (and especially the last few months), Ktrimi mostly edits topic of interest to Greek/southern Albanian editors rather Kosovo/Serbian editors:    .Almost exclusively so, I'd say. The edits to Odysseas Androutsos and Armatoloi, figures of the Greek War of Independence of marginal interest to Albanian editors, are classic Rolandi edits, e.g.   . In my experience, these types of articles are of little interest to Albanian editors (why wouldn't they be?), and this behavioral similarity is unusual. There is also the odd abiding interest in the figure of Evangelis Zappas, another figure that is normally of little interest to Albanian editors, but in which both Ktrimi and Rolandi are interested in.
 * Many will say that the Rolandi+ is from way too long ago to possibly be Ktrimi, but this sort of thing is actually routine in the topic area. One sockmaster, started socking in 2015 and his latest sock was blocked in 2021.
 * Amanuensis Balkanicus has an absolutely brilliant track record uncovering socks of banned Balkan users, perhaps the best track record of anyone in the topic area. Sure, maybe not 100%, but no one is 100%. The topic area is plagued by long-term sockpuppetry and users that sock for years is not uncommon at all. Khirurg (talk) 23:21, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * None of the diffs is about the Yugoslavia conflicts, the non-Albanian Yugoslavia topic that is part of my main interest. You just proved my point. Those diffs are either about ethnic groups (Rolandi+ has a good number of edits that concern various ethnic groups' articles) or the Macedonian-Albanian Spasse. Yeah, AB opened several SPIs on Mikola22 (all were closed without action), opened an SPI on Maleschreiber and three other Albanian editors (again, no action), and even claimed that Resnjari was a sock of Aigest!!!! Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You keep changing the goalposts. First it was non-Albanian Yugoslavia topics, now it's Yugoslavia conflicts, the non-Albanian Yugoslavia topic that is part of my main interest. Your main interest these days seems to be Greek topics, very much like Rolandi. As for Amanuensis Balkanicus, his SPIs have resulted in dozens of socks being blocked, resulting in a much cleaner and healthier topic area     Khirurg (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In my first post I wrote: During all these years my main focus have been Kosovo and Yugoslavia conflicts (at least until a few months ago after most editors there got topic banned and I started to lose interest in editing an area with almost no editor to discuss your ideas with). But hey continue your research, if you find sth interesting give me a ping. :) Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You wrote I doubt he ever edited non-Albanian Yugoslavia stuff (feel free to find 5 diffs to prove the opposite). So there's that. Anyway, we'll see what the CU shows and admins think soon enough. Khirurg (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, part of my main focus have been Yugoslavia conflicts, not the articles of ethnic Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Spasse. Among the most edited articles by me are Kosovo Liberation Army (1st with 75 edits), Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia (71 edits), Ustashe (45 edits), Great Migrations of the Serbs (44 edits) etc. Compare my articles by number of edits with those of Rolandi+ . Indeed, admins will soon take a look at this. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking at your 500 most recent mainspace edits, it's mostly Greek/southern/Tosk stuff : Butrint, Armatoloi, Odysseas Androutsos, Krokodeilos Kladas, Himara, Evangelis Zappas, Arvanites, Markos Botsaris, Greek language, Chaonians, Amantes (tribe), etc. I mean, really now. Khirurg (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And these are all articles which involved editing disputes between you, me, Bato and almost all other senior editors from the Albanian-Greek topic area. How exactly are those related to just Ktrimi and Rolandi? You're using recent editing disputes which weren't even started by Ktrimi and involved almost everyone active as evidence for a connection between one of the oldest active Albanian editors and a sock which operated 6 years ago. The arguments about a Ktrimi-Rolandi+ connection are all similar to the report which argued that Ktrimi is Sulmues. They are similar because they are not actual arguments, but a list of very common things which almost all Albanian and Balkan editors share.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Khirug, yep, as I said above after most editors got topic banned or blocked on Kosovo/Yugosavia wars topics, I turned more attention to other areas. The Arvanite figures and Zappas you mention are Albanian-related and even them I started to edit only recently after some 5 years of editing on enwiki. Lately there has been a focus by Albanian editors there (you have been in dispute with Excine, Ahmet Q. etc there). Cham Albanians is southern Albanian stuff and is the most edited article by Rolandi+ (24 edits) but my only edits there were in May 2020 - after four years of editing on enwiki. Vasile Lupu too is the most edited article by Rolandi+ (24 edits) and southern Albanan stuff but I have never edited it. Another southern Albanian article, Ghica family, is the fourth most edited article by Rolandi+ (19 edits) but I have never edited it. The fifth most edited article by Rolandi+ is again southern Albanian, Arvanites (16 edits) but my first edit there was in 2019, after 3 years of editing on enwiki . What about the football articles edited by Rolandi+ and even List of famines (12 edits!)? Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a very selective use of edits by those who support the report. Khirurg has even bolded the one common edit between Ktrimi/Rolandi he could find. Of course, anyone who is interested in just the facts will notice that these two editors like all editors in the Balkans have put forward in many cases opposite edits.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Amanuensis Balkanicus I'm reviewing your edits and I came to this, this really made me laugh. Are we going to change English words just for you? Someone says the same or similar thing in a sentence, so everyone can be compared, including you. It’s best to invent some new additional words in English for you so the sentences would be less similar or the same. This was just fun to read what ridiculous accusations. 93.139.190.234 (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC) In addition, in your opinion, it should be forbidden to edit an individual article, because no one should edit it after that person is banned. Because, in your opinion, it is the same person and no one should edit that article later because it is the same person you later report. Do you realize now what these ridiculous accusations are? I think that you are a politicized editor and that you are only accusing the editors of other countries, I see from your edits. 93.139.190.234 (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment


 * Comment (Maleschreiber)
 * AB has wrongly accused me of operating now established editor and a random old account  as socks and now we can see that he has accused  as being a sock of a very old account . The supposed editing convergence between Rolandi+/Ktrimi991 is similar to all other editors and Rolandi: Rolandi+/Bato ~50 pages, Rolandi+/Ahmet Q. ~60 Rolandi+/Maleschreiber ~65, Rolandi+/Khirurg ~80. Ktrimi actually has fewer common pages with Rolandi+ than Khirurg. The community of Balkan editors is so small that at some point everyone will edit something which everyone else will have edited before them. But the articles mentioned by Khirurg aren't just broad Balkan articles, but pages which involved figures of Albanian origin (Androutsos), figures born in Albania (E. Zappas) and communities of Albanian origin (Arvanites). Many Albanian editors have edited those same three articles and Ktrimi for some of them is in fact one of the last to do so in 2021 six years after Rolandi was blocked. during a content dispute which involved many other editors. A comparison between Ktrimi and Rolandi in terms of their most edited topics shows a big difference: Ktrimi991 - Rolandi+. There is no real specific interest overlap other than the fact that both are Albanians.
 * Ktrimi has removed edits by Rolandi+ in 2016, when he was supposed to be returning from a permanent block according to the report. Why would he do that? That Ktrimi agreed with Rolandi+ in one edit doesn't make them the same person. Whether articles about Macedonians should call them Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs has been a big debate which isn't a niche interest shared only by two editors. And just recently Ktrimi argued for the inclusion of a map which Rolandi+ wanted to remove in 2015. In the Balkan topic area, all editors who are not the same person will eventually hold positions which sometimes agree and others disagree with each other. Ktrimi and Rolandi+ have editing histories which stand on opposite sides many times.
 * The comment about Androutsos makes it seem as if Ktrimi "targeted" this article and had a special interest in it. But the fact is that Ktrimi was one of the last editors to get involved in the writing of Androutsos in late December 2021 during a content dispute which involved Khirurg, me and at least 4-5 other Albanian and Greek editors. Prior to December 2021, Ktrimi had 0 edits at Androutsos This particular article is targeted by IPs from Greece or Albania regularly and has been semi-protected several times. Rolandi's edit to this article 6 years ago is not related to our discussion and isn't a diff which indicates a connection with Ktrimi.
 * There are 15+ socks of Rolandi+ which can be compared to Ktrimi. Ktrimi has defended the historical reality of the genocide perpetrated against Serbs in WWII against neo-fascist revisionism. Meanwhile, Rolandi's sock regularly left comments such as reliable serb don't exist, Serb rubbish can't be serious, vandal, Karađorđević dynasty is full of serb pseudo-historians who are sure he had serb origin. In the two years I've known Ktrimi there is nothing in their activity which would suggest such an attitude. These two editors occupy a very different political and social eco-niche.
 * Durraz0 highlighted that some of the phrases which are argued as connections between Ktrimi and Rolandi+ are in fact very common. "On the article" is another one, which according to the report is one of the common phrases between Ktrimi/Rolandi. It has been used 199, 658 times in total.
 * To recap, the report relies on very inadequate arguments and ignores the real editing history of both editors.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Another example of opposite edits: Rolandi+ removed the designation "Kosovar" from Behgjet Pacolli in 2015, Ktrimi991 added it back after an IP removed it again in 2020. It's very obvious for anyone who bothers to compare these two accounts closely that they're not the same person in any way, shape or manner.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not at all. For example, the map that Rolandi wanted removed from Greater Albania was this one, while the map Ktrimi kept was a totally different one . While the edit by Ktrimi at Genocide of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia is commendable, we also have stuff like this It is not your fault, everyone knows what means to come from a country like Serbia, a society which is mostly famous for nationalism and propaganda., which is very Rolandi-esque: I don't have time to kill with a brainwashed serb.. And no, this edit by Ktrimi is not an undo of this edit by Rolandi , not even close. I also note that in many SPIs involving Albanian editors, you have defended them very vigorously without fail, even in cases when socking was plainly obvious and resulted in a block of the sock(s), for instance here . Khirurg (talk) 02:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have argued both against and for reports filed by AB. This is a report which I'm arguing against because the arguments brought forward are not convincing at all. If you thought that Ktrimi991 was Rolandi why didn't you report them before and waited for 2022 to support a report? The reason why no report has existed is because no report can be filed in good faith. There is no relation between Ktrimi991 and Rolandi+. Both you and AB have defended many editors who now have been all banned Some admins suggested that you receive a topic just a year ago and AB got warned for their editing. And you were blocked just recently. Now, we should allow admins to assess the report. We can help them by not repeating the same arguments for the n-th time.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * What on Earth are you talking about? The SPI you claimed you defended was not filed by AB, nor did it involve an Albanian editor. This comment, like much of your previous defense, simply consists of false information. And yes, you should let the admins assess the reports instead of bringing up irrelevant stuff like past blocks. Khirurg (talk) 02:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Wrong diff :) --Maleschreiber (talk) 02:59, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Rolandi+ said he wanted the demographics maps removed (not the red map you linked above because it is not a demographics map), and on the Mesihi of Prishtina article I removed the Turkish origin he had added. Together with the case on the Pacolli article mentioned by Maleschreiber above there are three articles where I take the opposite stance of Rolandi+ or undo his edit. From 5 his most edited articles two have never been edited by me, two others only edited after 3 or 4 years of editing on enwiki. His topics of main focus change to a very obvious degree to mine. I have also criticized Albanian nationalist narratives (for which I even received death threats on my talk page) and the Balkan nationalist socities in general. I have even reported several Albanian editors with nationalist POV issues! The Macedonians article is one with much attention and I rv the removal of content from the very first sentence. The content had been there based on community consensus since much earlier than Rolandi+ and I created our accounts. Ktrimi991 (talk) 02:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Nope, the map Rolandi is referring to is clearly the "Red" Greater Albania map, he clearly asks "what is wrong with red?", whereas the demographic map does not have any red anywhere. Khirurg (talk) 03:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Rolandi+ wanted to remove the demographics map I defended, and wanted to add the red map. Ktrimi991 (talk) 03:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * My original comment got lost in the discussion below it:  Do editors who argue that one of the senior editors of Albanian topics should be linked to an incompetent sock from 2015 have a reasonable reply?--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I think that common phrases and abbreviations in Albanian and English have been cleared up by all other editors - some don't even need an explanation - we need to focus more on editing history. I dug a bit under the surface of the edits at Evangelos Zappas. Rolandi (2015): . Ktrimi991 (2020-2021) Two edits are exact opposites: Rolandi+ argued against Zappas as Greek, Ktrimi991 added back to the lede that he was Greek. Other edits are not related and those who know Balkan politics can see that Ktrimi's edits are fundamentally internationalist and far away from what Rolandi+ was trying to do. Now, Rolandi's original edit was actually reinstated by other editors (including admins) not just once but several times: They are not Rolandi's socks for placing the same edit. It highlights again that even in articles edited by both Ktrimi and Rolandi there are many conceptual differences between them and edits which are conflicting each other.--Maleschreiber (talk) 05:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment (Calthinus)
 * I'd just like to point out here that someone using pretty common English phrases and abbreviations is really not... interesting at all. Not only do I myself use "sth", English dictionaries use it []. Saying "goodbye" to indicate you are not interested in replying again may indicate a shared personality trait in being uninterested in wasting further time on Wikipedia (a common trait), but it is also not exactly grounds for pseudo-language-forensic claims.--Calthinus (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Other cases here are simply Albanisms in English, which tell you basically nothing except that the speaker is a native speaker of Albanian or a language with similar expressions (see Balkan sprachbund). For example: "except of" -- this is an obvious calque of Albanian përveç, which imposes the genitive case on a noun it modifies in a prepositional phrase (i.e. you would say përveç këtsaj not përveç këtë). Given that përveç is probably the most common equivalent of "except for" in English, most native Albanian speakers will calque it into English, and since the genitive usually translates as "of X", the Albanian, translating word for word, will make "përveç ujit (ujë+ GEN it)" into "except" "of the water". So literally see what I did there? all this proves is someone's first language is Albanian.--Calthinus (talk) 01:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears, curiously, that noticed the same thing with a different common Albanian phrase -- which I was unaware of -- wherein in both cases it is simply the Albanian wording being translated into English. This is so common a thing in second language English that is a known and studied effect in contact linguistics. --Calthinus (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Add to the calques "për/para shumë kohë" (since a long time) which has been used 472 times in total.--Maleschreiber (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment (Alltan)

Well ok then, first we will need some context. In the past AB has reported me as a sock of an account which was inactive since 2017 and accused me of being a a sock of Maleschreiber with arguments such as "they both use the greeting 'Friend". I'm not making this up, check the report in Durraz0's link. I was a new user then and it made me quit wiki for a while afterwards. His report about Ktrimi follows the exact same strategy. AB is linking Ktrimi to an account which can’t be examined by CU. As a result this means that the report can stand or fail based only on behavioural criteria. AB then goes and chooses common English phrases or phrases Albanians use and then tries to convince clerks/admins that this is clear definitive material which proves the relation between two users. This report exclusively is being based on supposed common phrases between Ktrimi, Rolandi. I'm certain that if we compare all the phrases used by two unrelated users from the same country we will find common ones but many different ones as well. Choosing just a few similar ones creates a false "narrative". I'm struggling to see how "opppsssss" or whatever, something which I might have used in my online chats shows a link (It’s just a silly way of saying oops). Use of the phrasal verb "look on" is used as “conclusive” evidence in the report but it literally has14620 hits. Honestly, I myself may have used myself "look on" instead of "look at" because it makes more sense to me in Albanian. Clerks/admins are not being asked to determine if they are the same person because they are doing the same things on wiki, but because they've used some phrases. Ktrimi has the same number of edited articles with Rolandi+ as every other user from the Balkans, and their edits are not even close most of the times. I don't understand just what exactly is the "convergence" between their edits on articles like Adriatic Sea and List of Illyrian tribes   The above claimed "convergence" is superficial and doesn't show up in the content of their respective edits. Diffs which show opposite or contrasting edits have been brought forth. It would be nonsensical for someone who holds two accounts and isn't in danger of getting blocked because no CU can "incriminate" him to just go against edits of his old account. For what exactly? The conclusion is that Ktrimi and Rolandi have contrasting edits, because they are different people. I even checked some of the topics which interest me too and found more such examples: '''Crnojević noble family: NobleFrog wrote that they were of Albanian origin,  Ktrimi explains that they were of Serbian origin. ''' Rolandi's sock supports the Albanian narrative about that family, Ktrimi991 supports the view of Serbian origin. Alltan (talk) 17:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * AB has accused me previously of not using English correctly even for the use of basic verbs. He once reverted me saying in the edit summary "what does "stressing" something mean??" I had copied that sentence from User:Resnjari  who is a native speaker of English. The same word has been used with the same meaning by various academic sources in the US  and UK . Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Comment (Resnjari)
 * Checked my wiki today, saw that i was pinged here and have been cited. My experiences with @Ktrimi have been ok, the editor has not exhibited nationalist tendencies, which are often rife in the Wikipedia space of Balkan topics by others. Recalling from memory, @Amanuensis Balkanicus has in the past said i was an account of @Aigest, based on something trivial like saying "Best" at the end of wiki comment sentences. @Amanuensis Balkanicus never bothered to follow it up. If any admins want to do a SPI check of me they are more than welcome, as long as I am informed of it. I am from Melbourne, born and raised, still here and i only make edits from my home computer when possible. I created my account in late 2008, named it after the town of Resen, Macedonia, in honour of an ancestor who fled there for safety after her nearby village no longer existed due to the Balkan Wars. In hindsight i probably would have chosen something different. Anyway, i was mostly inactive for a few years as i was knowledge poor of Balkan topics until i commenced university studies and had access to reliable sources. I then felt confident toward contributing to wiki topics in the early 2010s till present. There is a lot of mudslinging in the Balkan topic area. I.e @Amanuensis Balkanicus toward me in the past. @Khirurg too toward me in past times, and over the years to nearly every editor who edits Albanian related topics (and practically any other topic area the editor finds themselves on and has disagreements) ad nauseum and in an odious and WP:BATTLEGROUND manner. As such, i am inclined to be dismissive of this SPI toward @Ktrimi. It just appears to me as an attempt to extend the mudslinging rubbish from talk page "discussions" to here as a type of WP:FORUMSHOPPING.Resnjari (talk) 04:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

 * . Behavioral evaluation in progress. (Just saying that lest someone else wade in at the same time as me.) In the meantime, I think everyone's made their points well enough by now, and further back-and-forth is going to just delay resolution of this case. If any further information is needed from the filer, accused, or any commenter, I or another SPI team member will let you know. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 05:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So, there's some disagreement among members of the SPI team as to the usefulness of linguistic analysis with non-native English speakers. There are some who feel that it is categorically inadmissible, but I think it has its place, if done right. With any linguistic similarity between two people of the same ESL background, one must ask oneself: "Could this be explained just by being from the same background?" And if the answer is "I don't know," then that has to be counted as a "yes", because we can't risk wrongfully blocking people just because an SPI clerk doesn't know that something is a common false friend in some language. Looking at the 11 writing similarities presented:
 * Shared usage of an abbreviation. Often language-correlated.
 * Sarcasm is not a distinctive behavior. "Poor you" is very very slightly distinctive but may be language-correlated.
 * Common misspelling, one I may have made once or twice. May be more common from some linguistic backgrounds; I don't know enough about Albanian phonology to say.
 * I thank Calthinus for their detailed analysis of why this is a mistake that native speakers of Albanian are more likely to make.
 * As with 4, this is a preposition error. Prepositions are often the hardest thing to get right between languages, and native speakers of one language often make the same preposition errors in other languages. This is especially the case with non-literal prepositions (that is to say, there's no real at involved in looking at something, any more than there's an on involved).
 * Ordinals versus adverbs, another frequently language-correlated mixup.
 * While I know nothing about Albanian, I do happen to speak French, which also uses a phrase calquing to "since [a] long time" (depuis longtemps). I betcha at least once in the history of frwiki, someeone's thought two native English speakers were sox because they both said "pour un longtemps" (the corresponding incorrect calque). So I'm going to assume Albanian, like French, takes the sensible approach that a time-based phrase should have a time-based conjunction.
 * When to use articles is up there with prepositions among the hardest things to master. I swear it broke my brain when I lived in Israel, trying to switch back and forth between English and Hebrew (which has no indefinite article, but uses its definite article in some cases where English would use an indefinite one).
 * With the rest of these I'm AGFing that you just weren't aware of these quirks of language, but on this one, Amanuensis Balkanicus... You linked to .al so you know what country that represents. You seriously can't think of any reason other than sockpuppetry that two speakers of Albanian would link to a  domain?
 * I've done that.
 * I've done that, in the past few days in fact.
 * Combine this with Maleschreiber and others' evidence that Ktrimi has taken opposite positions from Rolandi+ in content disputes, I am, with prejudice, and a finding that no credible evidence has been presented. And some parting thoughts:
 *  I'm going to assume that this report was filed in good faith, but in the future, please do not file SPIs based on linguistic analysis of people from the same ESL background without first ruling out linguistic-background similarities as a confounding variable. You may consider this a polite warning.
 * While I hope you never find yourself at SPI again, just a friendly tip: This is the first time I've ever seen someone reply with a MWOT containing lots of boldface and not turn out to be a sock. A shorter, less-aggressively formatted reply will often serve a user better.
 * Speaking of firsts, to everyone else, I have to say, this is the first time I've ever seen this many words spent in the "Comments by other users" section and had them all be constructive, well-argued comments focused on addressing the sockpuppetry allegation. I was absolutely dreading reading through all this, and instead I found y'all had done a lot of my work for me. So... Good job!
 *  --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 06:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)