Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sarandioti/Archive

Report date September 13 2009, 04:52 (UTC)

 * Suspected sockpuppets


 * Evidence submitted by User:Athenean
 * User:Alarichus begins editing at 03:36 on 20 July 2009, immediately prior to Sarandioti receiving a month-long block from User:Nishkid64 for disruptive behavior at 03:20 on 21 July 2009 . His very first edits    show that Alarichus is highly knowledgeable about Wikipedia editing, including how to add references in proper format.  This alone indicates that Alarichus has almost certainly edited before, although it does not prove he is Sarandioti.
 * Even stranger, when Sarandioti was blocked in the past, he protested loudly, issuing multiple unblock requests every time  , as further evidenced on his talkpage.  Yet after his last block, nothing. Complete radio silence, not even a peep.  Sarandioti has not edited even after his block expired except for 2-3 edits on Aug. 25..
 * Sarandioti has stated that he lives in Greece, and the time-signature of his edits is consistent with someone editing in Greece's time zone.  It is also remarkably similar to the time signature of Alarichus' edits.
 * Alarichus claims he is not from the Balkans, but his passionate subscription to and defense of the Albanian POV in a recent TfD debate is suspicious (namely, that the term "Northern Epirus" is irredentist and should be avoided at all costs)   .  He is also strangely intent on pursuing vendettas against the same users (Factuarius, Alexikoua) that Sarandioti was   .  This is very perplexing.
 * Alarichus' style of writing is highly reminiscent of that Sarandioti (accusatory, aggressive, somewhat condescending). Examples below.


 * Short, successive, accusatory questions: S     A.
 * A perplexing inability to capitalize the word "Greek" under any circumstances, even though other words in the same passage are duly capitalized: S     A.
 * Ending with posts with statements to the effect of "This is sad" or "This is disappointing": S    A.
 * Telling other users to "wait until this process is over": S   A.
 * Admonishing users not to write until process X is over: S     A.
 * Statements to the effect "Sure, if anything comes up I'll...": S    A.
 * Statements to the effect of: "And please stop commenting on me":  S    A.
 * Telling people to go to his talkpage instead of "here": S    A.
 * Telling other users "you do not understand what I said": S    A.
 * Sarandioti is a stickler for spelling, always going back and fixing the spelling of his posts, as does Alarichus: S       A.

Alarichus' tone and style particularly in the ANI and TfD discussions sounds very much like Sarandioti to me. --Athenean (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

New Evidence
 * Alarichus here seems to be taunting Factuarius.  Strange behavior for someone who is presumably innocent.  His continuous insinuations against Factuarius, even on this very page, are stranger still.  Why would a seemingly new user have such beef with Factuarius?
 * Checkuser has established that Alarichus uses highly dynamic IPs. Such a behavior would appear consistent with a sockpuppeteer trying to cover his tracks, and would also partially explain the smugness with which Alarichus is taunting Factuarius.
 * Alarichus' explanations are becoming more and more convoluted. From Ticino, but staying in a hotel in Syntagma, using no less than 16 netcafes.  Why so many?  I am from Athens, and I happen to know there aren't that many netcafes in downtown.  To go to 16 netcafes would mean covering a huge area.  Why go through such trouble?   I think the answer is obvious.  How long have you been staying in Athens Alarichus?  Since you started editing?  Must have deep pockets, downtown Athens is an expensive place, particularly for a "telecommunications student".  On the other hand, downtown Athens is frequented by many Albanian immigrants, who would be using netcafes as they probably do not have internet at home.
 * Even more intriguing, the main accused, Sarandioti, has seemingly vanished from the face of the Earth. Strange for someone so passionate and determined to vanish without a trace, without even defending himself from such grave accusations.  The overall pattern of behavior is similar to the Deucalionite/Elysonius case (for those who are familiar with it).  --Athenean (talk) 20:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Evidence submitted by User:Alexikoua
 * Sarandioti contributed from May 26 to July 21 [], with an addition of 4 minor edits in a last appearance in August 21. His contribution was considered highly disruptive with wp:npa, civility, 3rr [] [], reaching 6 blocks[], with his last one in July 21, plus an one revert limit.


 * Alarichus started to contribute to Wikipedia from July 20 [], 23 hours before Sarandioti’s last ban. Although complaining in such cases and always making unblock requests, Sarandioti all of the sudden disappeared (just a brief appearance in August 21).


 * The time pattern while both accounts were actively contributing: from July 20, 02:36 to July 21 01:27, (23 hours) is very clear that there were not simultaneous contributions from both accounts.


 * Both users share the same isp with approximately the same i.p.: a series of reverts by Sarandioti in June 4, while intentionally unlogged in order to evade 3rr in his edit-wars revealed his i.p.: [], as well as Alarichus’ ‘whois’ information in irc simply proves that. As I know their isp provides a dynamic ip address in a limited range, and that’s obvious since Alarichus joins irc:wikipedia-en, with a slightly different ip almost each day.


 * A weird evidence of inconsistency is that Alarichus asked for the translation of an off-wiki text from Greek to English (with Latin characters), pretending that he doesn’t know Greek [] . However, his whois info in irc clearly shows that he lives in Greece (Athens). Considering that he joins the irc channel more than a month, with his whois info always pointing to Athens, something is really weird with this situation. By the way Sarandioti spoke Greek very well [] [] and was active in irc too [].


 * Alarichus, from 20 July, has a good contribution for a rookie in minor edits in non Greek-Albanian topics. This contribution was not always without being massively reverted [] [], with the reason that his conts were unexplained.


 * After becoming a ca. 45 day experienced user he decided to initiate as a ‘third part’ user, a Greek-Albanian dispute in the deletion of the template:Northern Epirus. However, in the process he decided to leave his neutrality and take the part of the one side. Moreover, accused the Greek side for launching a sock-meatpupetry concert. Quite wierd behavior for a determined newcomer in wiki to make such moves.


 * Alarichus made adjustments after ‘being asked from irc’, in template:Northern Epirus, still without explaining a real reason. Most of the template’s articles he deleted were of highly importance for Sarandioti too [], [], []


 * Both userpages are of similar inspiration: A. Hitler and anarchism, Satan stuff, with a variety of revolutionary extremist style quotes.


 * Alarichus vollunteered in Aug. 31 to review for 'gan' Vikos-Aoos National Park, the article received a 'quick fail', without quick criteria being checked [] as per Reviewing_good_articles, instead of reciving an 'on hold' status. Sarandioti considered that this region is Albanian (ancient Molossis/Molissians) in Himara discussion page.

I believe, as per User:Factuarius pointed, that these two accounts are used by the same person. It's really hard to believe the opposite, but everyone can extract his own results and opinions.Alexikoua (talk) 11:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I am no one's sock. I joined on July 15, 2009. Read the guidelines, then started contributing. All these claims saying that I am a sock are based on my spelling or anything else which is irrelevant. I have 1 ga and 8 dyk. Everybody in the irc knows that I write from a dynamic ip, which changes all the time and so it wouldn't surprise me if it got in someone's ip. Everybody knows that I have edited from many ips. If I have 4 commons ips in over 120, its not really a fact for anything. And I find it a bit suspicious that User:Factuarius whom I suspect for sockpuppetry didn't file this by himself. Was it because he would be checked? Just asking.
 * Comments by accused parties    See Defending yourself against claims.
 * Conclusion:I have 4 ips common with someone in over 120 ips I have used, I commented on one discussion in which another user is interested once, in 900 contributions with gas and dyks. My ip in the irc is public at all times, and many people even know the hotel I'm staying in Athens. I write from 1 hotel, 16 net cafes in constitution(or however that is called in greek) vicinity, and 1 free wifi bar.  So, I leave it up to you. --Alarichus (talk) 08:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't share similar interests with the user whose sock I am accused to be.
 * Articles he frequently edits:
 * Articles I frequently edit:
 * On the bottom of the page, press the "frequently edited pages" link. That shows that I do not edit the same articles.
 * Also many people fix their grammar errors, that doesn't show that one user is another user's sockpuppet.--Alarichus (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you connect Nietzsche with Hitler?Is that evidence that shows I'm a sock?
 * I don't know greek, and that is why I asked for a translation. Yes, I have been in Greece, as I have been in Turkey, Italy, and Egypt. Everybody who knows me in wiki, knows that I am from Ticino.
 * I didn't pass that GAN because it indeed it wasn't a GA or "on hold". And before doing that, I asked many experienced users.
 * The problem here, is that 3 users, who just do not like the fact that I did not support their belief, want me blocked.
 * I do not even have a fixed ip, so 4/80-90 ips, doesn't show anything.--Alarichus (talk) 11:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't even been warned for edit-warring or anything like that. The only time when I was reverted, was because of a malfunction of the wikiED addon(which supposedly fixes wikicode errors), for which I apologised. --Alarichus (talk) 14:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Athenean you commented on me, saying that I have an inability to say "Greek". I don't really understand your argument, since . But even if I did not say "Greek" and said "greek", I really don't think that would be an argument showing that I'm a sock.--Alarichus (talk) 17:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments by other users

Well this is case is complex indeed, but sometimes 1 IP or the same ranges as said in the check user is used by 3-10 people, one person vandalizes in that IP range but different Lan IP, gets the whole IP blocked and blocking innocent people. So in the case of Alarichus thats whats happening in my opinion its not him someone else in Lan doing it. (basic networking) :P I dont support the block, more evidence required. Danger^Mouse (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The idea of blocking a whole range for one suspected sock who does not appear to have violated any major rules feels problematic. Other people may use that range and the assumption of good faith feels like it should be in play here. why punish other possible users? And if the infractions are not that serious, it should not warrant that type of response. It looks like more investigation should be done and behavior would need to escalate before going forward with a block. --PurplePopple (talk) 13:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems like this "sockpuppet" is not doing anything bad. Also the user claims that he uses public PC's. It's highly possible that these people come from the same walks of life and have the same views but one knows how to use wikipedia for good. I say that before anything else happens we should Whois the suspected IP's and see if they are public places. Irunongames •  play  15:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I, too, have some doubts, just by looking at the abuse patterns in the two accounts. Currently, Sarandioti is not blocked. Alarichus hasn't even received even a single warning for edit-warring. Doing a spot-check on both users' contribs (in particular their communications with other editors), they seem to both have different demeanor and behavioral patterns present. I think it's very unlikely that this is "good hand, bad hand" as past cases have shown from time to time that you're going to get part of the "good hand" in the "bad hand" and vice-versa, sooner or later (which I haven't seen in my check). Combine that with the dynamic nature of the IPs, I don't readily see it. Hence, Alarichus might have simply been in the wrong place and at the wrong time. MuZemike 15:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Since "Alarichus has not broken any rules per se, and Sarandioti is not evading a block and entitled to multiple accounts", why should we care? I came here after I run into several good articles by Alarichus and wanted to thank him for his help. I don't see any reason to block him, and I would unblock him if I saw such a request. PS. Evidence wise, Alarcichus is creating good content related to Polish–Ottoman War (1683-1699) (Battle of Parkany, Battle of Podhajce (1667)), a subject in which Sarandioti wasn't interested (AFAIK). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sarandioti was evading a block through the Alarichus sock all throughout early August. He was also trying to deceive the community about his past and the revert restrictions that were imposed on him.  Considering his highly checquered past, he should be blocked indefinitely, not unblocked.  At the very least, he should be topic banned from Balkans'related articles.  --Athenean (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Such topic ban may be considered; personally I don't want to lose an editor who shows rare interest (and ability to write well about) 18th century Poland- and Ottoman- related issues. Using surgical restrictions instead of banhammer is usually a good idea. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your point. However, we are talking about one of the most troublesome and disruptive users on Balkan related topics .  He is motivated by extreme hatred of Greek people  (referring to the Pontian Genocide).  And now he has added sockpuppetry to his rapsheet.  However, considering your point, I suppose I could live with a topic ban on Balkan-related topics, provided it is (a) broadly defined and (b) indef.  Oh and one more thing.  This user should not ever be allowed to run for admin status or any other sort of privileges.  I think that is self-evident, but I would like to clarify my position on the matter just in case.  --Athenean (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There is not a single reason for Alarichus to be unblocked, evidence is overwhelming anyway. Off course, he can continue to contribute in such topics (non-Balkan) with his first account. Actually Sarandioti, has violated his 1 revert limit in template:Northern Epirus, ( [] as Alarichus), a topic ban should be appropriate on balkan related topics. Since he is interested in Ottoman-Polish and East Europe military history, noone prohibits User:Sarantiti to do that. However, history proves that it is most likely to appear with a third account this time.Alexikoua (talk) 05:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Although based on the above, I am fairly certain that this case passes WP:DUCK, a checkuser would be useful in proving this beyond any doubt. While Alarichus has not broken any rules per se, and Sarandioti is not evading a block and entitled to multiple accounts, I believe this is an attempt by Sarandioti to deceive the community about his checquered past and is as such unacceptable. --Athenean (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * CheckUser requests

✅ This case is rather complex, but I am certain that these two users are being controlled by the same person.
 * Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments

The facts:
 * Both of these users are editing from the same range, a /16 (which is 65536 IP addresses).
 * These users have the same operating system, but there is no overlap with user agents.
 * This IP range is crazily dynamic - Both users have edited from well over 70 separate IP addresses.
 * These accounts have four IP addresses in common. That is, there are four IP addresses that both users have edited from.
 * On three of these four, both accounts have edited within 4 hours of each other.

I find the odds of two completely distinct people, who both have the same interests, the same ideals, and who have many of the same characteristics and style of diction, editing from the same IP address at practically the same time on three separate occasions to be extremely low.

And when you take into account how incredibly dynamic the IP addresses are, and couple it with the fact that any account on that range has access to more than 65000 IP addresses, I do not think there is any room for doubt that these two accounts are being controlled by the same person. J.delanoy gabs adds 06:12, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess that's what comes from running checkuser queries at two in the morning. trout for me, and I'll look at this more closely when I get a chance. J.delanoy gabs adds  15:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with J.delanoy's initial conclusion. The technical evidence alone points toward sockpuppetry. ✅. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And upon re-review, I think that my original thoughts are most likely correct. J.delanoy gabs adds  22:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A question remains of what sanctions to issue. I'm somewhat familiar with Sarandioti's edit history, from having tried to calm down some disputes on articles where he was involved. One reason for the creation of Alarichus as an alternate account might have been to escape Sarandioti's block log and his restriction. (Nishkid had restricted him to one revert per article per week under ARBMAC). Since Alarichus was active in early August, this was clearly an *evasion* of Sarandioti's month-long block. Since the creation of the immaculate 'Alarichus' identity seems to be a deceptive maneuver, it is very hard to assume good faith. (It matches the 'avoiding scrutiny' clause of WP:SOCK). I'd suggest an indefinite block of Alarichus, with the expectation that the editor behind User:Sarandioti will use only a single account to edit Wikipedia in the future. Sarandioti would (under this proposal) not be blocked but would remain under the 1RR per week restriction that was previously imposed. EdJohnston (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So Sarandioti gets away without so much as a slap on the wrist? You are far too lenient Ed.  This deception shows nothing but contempt for wikipedia policies and the community.  There needs to be a ZERO-tolerance policy for this kind of behavior, especially in Balkans-related articles.  What if he had gone on undetected?  What kind of message are we sending here?  I too am under a 1RR restriction.  Should I too start sockpuppet accounts in order to deceive the community?  Might as well, since I know that Sarandioti did the same thing and got away with it.  This guy has done nothing but edit-war, POV-push, pursue vendettas against other users, and now attempted to deceive the entire community.  In less than two months, he has figured in countless confrontations and edit wars, and has managed to rack up an impressive 5 blocks within this time frame.  Following his latest month-long block, he was one block away from indef.  Enough.  This is the final straw.  He does not need to edit wikipedia, and wikipedia certainly does not need his edits.  How much havoc does he have to wreak before the community says enough?  I spent two afternoons gathering the evidence for this case.  Two afternoons that could otherwise have been spent productively and that I'm not going to get back.  I can't go on doing this continuously.  Such behavior threatens the very stability of wikipedia and cannot go on unpunished.  --Athenean (talk) 03:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced that this user will soon (if not yet, considering the Sarndioti-Alarichus time pattern) create an additional sock account with a much more careful wp:duck activity this time. His level of fanatism is too high in order to accept blocks and bans, as his past proves.Alexikoua (talk) 05:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

User indefinitely blocked. MuZemike 15:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Conclusions


 * Note that the sockmaster (Sarandioti) is blocked for 3 months by MuZemike, and the sock (Alarichus) is indefinitely blocked by NuclearWarfare. Nathan  T 15:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Report date September 28 2009, 21:16 (UTC)

 * Suspected sockpuppets


 * Evidence submitted by User:Athenean
 * The User:Kreshnik25 and Lceliku accounts are created a few days after the indef blocking of Sarandioti's previous sock User:Alarichus . A discussion on Alarichus on ANI ANI was exhausted on September 17th, Kreshnik appears a week after that on September 24th.
 * Kreshnik immediately dives head first into multiple, ongoing edit disputes, such as Souliotes and Djakovica.
 * When asked how he found out about the ongoing disputes he immediately joined, Kreshnik fudges and dodges . Other users have also expressed suspicions that Kreshnik is a sock.
 * Within his first 24 hours on wikipedia, Kreshnik knows about reliable sourcing, knows what WP:OR is , knows WP:BRD , knows what consensus is , knows and interested in DYK  (which is something the Alarichus sock was also highly interested in), and is knowledgeable about getting blocked for edit-warring .  The above indicate that Kreshnik is almost certainly a returning user, although it is not clear exactly who at this point.
 * Kreshnik also knows how to file a flawless 3RR report, while carefully gaming 3RR himself without actually breaking it on numerous occasions. This behavior is consistent with that of an experienced user.  He later disingenuously claims that he hasn't "learned 100%" how to file a report , even though he just did the previous day.  This would be consistent with a sockpuppeteer trying to cover his tracks by trying to appear inexperienced.
 * Kreshnik is interested in many of the same articles that Sarandioti is, such as Souliotes     (K:39 edits incl. talkpage) and Gjirokaster (K:6 edits, S:21 edits), and appears to share the same ultranationalist Albanian POV as Sarandioti.
 * Kreshnik's first edit to Souliotes (and his third on wikipedia) occurs within a couple of hours after User:I Pakapshem's last edit to that article, picking up right where Pakapshem left off.  Sarandioti and Pakapshem know each other and collaborate.  Both joined wikipedia at approximately the same time (late May/early June).
 * Kreshnik performs surprisingly similar edits as Sarandioti, e.g. increasing the importance level for WP:SQ of articles he is interested in. K:       S:.
 * Kreshnik and Sarandioti perform identical edits on Igoumenitsa. K:, S:.  It thus appears that Kreshnik shares the same interests (some would say obsessions) with Sarandioti and happens to have the same articles watchlisted, all within 1-2 days of opening a new account.
 * Kreshnik also shares the same POV with Sarandioti that Greek sources are inherently POV and unreliable. K:       .  S:     .  Also note the insistence on no Greek or Albanian sources in greek-albanian articles.  K:       S:.
 * Kreshnik shares an particular dislike of one particular source (Ruches) with Sarandioti: K: (his third edit on wikipedia), S:.
 * Kreshnik likes to taunt and gloat about users who are blocked or restricted, much like Sarandioti.
 * Kreshnik's writing style, tone, and diction are very reminiscent of Sarandioti (short, telegraphic sentences, no post is longer than 4-5 sentences). Examples follow below:


 * A succession of short questions, followed by a declaration. K:  S:.
 * "This is a greek nationalist attempt"  K:  S:
 * The particular way HE uses CAPS for EMPHASIS: K:         S:.
 * Both love to refer to their POV as "facts": K:     S:.
 * Both claim to have no choice but edit-war in the face of "greek nationalism": K:    S:.
 * Both have a tendency to ask admins to revert on their behalf when they have reached the 3R limit: K:    S:.


 * Regarding, he seems to share the same interest in Morea that the Alarichus sock did , particularly regarding the bit about Fallmerayer.  Lceliku also seems to know about reliable sourcing from his very first edit .  Then, Kreshnik pops up on Lceliku's page, throwing out the welcome mat  and dishing out advice .  How did he become aware of Lceliku's existence?  I myself only found out by looking at Kreshnik's contribs.  This really stinks.

Based on the above evidence, I would say this passes WP:DUCK and then some. A checkuser might still be useful nonethless. Users may also want to consult the Alarichus case for reference. Sarandioti/Alarichus used multiple netcafes in Athens to cover his tracks, and had a crazily dynamic IP range as a result. --Athenean (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments by accused parties    See Defending yourself against claims.

It was more than obvious that Kreshnick was a reincarnation of an experienced user. From his first appearance in Souliotes...just after I_Pakashem's declaration of edit-war [] the pattern was clear. I have predicted that Sarandioti's enthousiasm wouldn't stop with Alarichus account and his reappearance was something expected [].Alexikoua (talk) 07:03, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments by other users

Requested by Athenean (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * CheckUser requests

I am not yet at the point of being willing to block without checkuser results, but this is clearly a mess. Kreshnik25 did pass up an opportunity to reveal enough about himself to eliminate the sock concerns. Athenean's evidence is striking. Somehow, it's tolerable if people with ethnic interests come in and start arguing a lot when they seem like legit editors who are learning. But when they are socks (and only pretending to be learning) I lose all sympathy. Kreshnik25 is working his way up the ladder towards an WP:ARBMAC warning in my view, though nobody had given him one yet. EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments
 * Very compelling. Excellent SPI report, nicely and clearly laid out, so good job on that front. I'd say that's really pretty convincing, actually. Kreshnik is permabanned as a clearly disruptive sock (and probably of the troll identified) although the redlink account there isn't enough evidence for, so I'll wait for CU on that one. The main account will be permabanned as well for block evasion. Moreschi (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All implemented, main account is now banned. Moreschi (talk) 21:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The editor named in this report sent me an email after he was blocked, which volunteered some new information. I did not find anything in the email to persuade me that our action here was incorrect, but I can forward the email to any admins or checkusers concerned on this case if desired. EdJohnston (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Conclusions
 * Highly that  = .  is ❌. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 04:28, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Already blocked and tagged. MuZemike 16:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Report date September 13 2009, 04:52 (UTC)

 * Suspected sockpuppets

Evidence submitted by Alexikoua
Though Sulmues expressed a desire to quit wikipedia and prior to his block on December 4th was not particularly active, beginning 1-2 December, he underwent a transformation to an extremely active user that showed interests in articles that he was never previously interested but that Sarandioti very much was. My guess is that the real Sulmues was contacted off-wiki by Sarandioti, who convinced him to give him his password so that he could avoid detetection, since all his previous socks were detected and blocked:

[]

Sarandioti's last confirmed sock account was Muzakaj. While account Sulmues took a wiki break on Dec. 5-28 []), during this period (Dec. 5-15) Muzakaj was very active.

Additional comfirmed sock account of Sarandioti are listed here: [], while his most active sock accounts were User:AlarichusUser:Muzakaj User:Kreshnik25.


 * Both userpages Sarantioti/Sulmues like Nietsche's anarchists quotes :

SA: [] SU: []

as well as this sock account: AL: []

Share same interests in the articles: Cerciz Topulli,Bajo Topulli:

SU:[] SA:[][]


 * An obsession with Jakup Veseli and inserting him in the notable people section at Margariti.

SU:[][][] SA:[][]


 * Sulmues was advocating why a number of Albanian accounts, his sockmaster account included, were banned in the past:

[] [] []


 * He was also obssesed with the -notable peoples- section in Gjirokaster and also questioned the ethnicity of the Greek mentioned in the same section:

SU:[] SA:[]


 * Same situation in Korca, also he considered specific Greek personalities as not enough notable:

SU:[] MUZ:[] []

SU:[] SA:[][]
 * Ironic, offending comments against the same users:

SU:[] SA: []
 * Both accounts considered article Cham Albanian of Top importance in the importance scale making the same scale adjustment:

Extremely hostile against what he called the 'Greek team': SA: [] SU: []


 * Instists on fighting and accusing User:Athenean:

SU:[] SA: [][]

SA:[] SU:[][]
 * Accusations against User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, making weird conclusions that he is cooperating with Greek users:

SU:[], [] KRE: SA:.
 * Use of capitals to emphasize specific words:


 * Greek is often mentioned with -g- while Albanian always with -A-:

SU:[] [][]

SA: AL:.

This times, Sarandioti followed a more clever wp:duck strategy, carefully hiding specific points of his personality after studying the two past spi investigations against him [].
 * A new guise


 * For example he coninued to edit in athletics (like Sulmues' pre-December contribution), however day by day this interest faded and now he isn't interested in athletics any more (at least in his last 1,000 edits).
 * On early December he insisted on posting his contribution link on top of his userpage, like saying 'look at me I'm not a sock'[][].
 * A Teddy bear took the place of Satan & infant A. Hitler in his userpage.Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Additional evidence

SU: [][] SA: []
 * Tag-teaming together with various ip editors, in his revert war:

SU: [] (advocating in favor of Monshuai trying to turn the discussion into an interethnic balkan battleground) AL: []] (here pretending the non-Albanian editor that supports the injustice caused by the Greek lobby against User:I_Pakapshem)
 * Playing the 'neutral third part' in ongoing discussions creating major disturbances in the discussion process:

SU: SA:. All the reports endrd up fruitless.Alexikoua (talk) 21:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Obsession in reporting other editors for 3rr vio. without being in fact 3rr vio case, in an desperate attempt to find the 'right' admin for his job:

Comments by accused parties
This is an outrageous accusation, which I of course reject, as I have done with other bad-faith accusations received from the Greek editors: the first one being this (User_talk:Moreschi). It's unbeleivable what kind of accusations these people (Athenean and Alexikoua) are able to file. The fact that I share the same interests with these users (Albanian related) doesn't link me to either Sarandioti or Guildenrich. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 00:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment related to the Athenean's comment below: the only reason why I started to edit a lot from December is that I saw that you had made sure to report every Albanian editor that was working on Wikipedia and was finding the Greek sources very weak. Their edits on Albanian related topics were much better than the Greek ones. However in December there was nobody left. I had to fill in their shoes. I am the only Albanian editor left now (the last of the Mohikans in the English Wikipedia) and I'm sure you won't stop: I'll get reports from you in the future very often. So far I have been reported unjustly at least 8 times from the tandem Alexikoua-Athenean. I'm getting used to it. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 01:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Continued based on Athenean's comment below and Tadija's. I have to tell my story in Wikipedia now: I have no relationship to Sarandioti or any other user. My nickname is Sulmues, has always been, and won't change. I am the same person. My first edit was that of creating Avni Mula's page, a famous Albanian singer and composer from Gjakova. Then I had lots of fun in Wikipedia contributing on soccer pages where everybody respected me. I was never reverted. I made lots of edits to SK Tirana especially. No problems there. Then one day last summer I went to see the Kosovo page and noted that Kosovo was the article of a country that had three infoboxes (not one), the first one being that of a regional infobox (sic), the second one that of its government and the third one that of UNMIK. Its Coat of Arms was not allowed to stay on top. Kosovo basically was not to be presented as a country but only as a disputed region. Abkhazia and South Ossetia did have both COA and Flag on top and one single infobox, that of their respective republic, but Kosovo did not have the right to do that in the English Wikipedia. Now bear in mind that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are recognized by only Russia and Kosovo by 65 country (mostly western powers especially USA, France UK, and Germany), yet the treatment in Wikipedia is preferential for the former: the Kosovo article is land of no one and it seems that this is not the English Wikipedia but the Russian one that we're reading. I was appalled! I saw that Tadija, a Serbian user who is glad to spite me here, made sure to change all the Albanian names of the Albanian settlements in Kosovo even though the national language in Kosovo is Albanian. So I started in the talk pages of Kosovo to change the consensus and I obtained a voting of 10-2 (see ), but I was continuously reverted by the Greek and the Serbian editors, even though the voting was clear. I was told that there was a previous consensus, which I never saw. Probably it was behind the scenes and I didn't notice it. I was eventually reported from Cinema C and Athenean and blocked twice and banned from Kosovo topics as "disruptive". Back then I had no clue one could even be blocked or banned in Wikipeda. I was in shock and I behaved badly with the admins. Btw I still am banned from Kosovo topics until the 27 of May and I am respecting the ban but I am mentioning the region to explain that there is no duck case here: I'm not aware that Sarandioti had an interest on Kosovo (or other sockmasters I am accused of).


 * At that point (beginning of December), I saw very clearly what the rules were. I could do pretty much very good contributions in Albanian sports topics and other, but as far as politics, history, and Albanian language: they were the apanage of the Greek and Serbian editors who were patrolling them. They still do. Take a look at those pages and you'll see a little war between non-registered users who can't change zips because they'll be reverted by the Greek editors as vandalisms. If they are registered, they'll start to hit their heads in the Greek wall and won't achieve much, in addition they'll be reported sooner or later after they'll take the bait of provocations. Furthermore I went to ARBMAC and saw that per ARBCOM so many Albanian editors had been blocked and guess how: by bad faith reports of Greek editors who had provoked them and they had taken the bait in exploding (pretty much like I did). I also went to the Albanian settlement articles like Himare (Albania) and Delvine (Albania) and saw that the Greek name is used because there is a Greek minority there, but it's not possible to use the Albanian name of settlements in Greece Margëlleç, Follorina, Kostur, Konitsa are not mentioned in Albanian even though there are Albanian minorities there. In the meanwhile the Greeks editors will make sure to enter the Greek name of every Albanian city there is, especially the sourthern Albanain ones.


 * Let's talk about Souliotes. They were Albanians but the Greek editors make sure to assert that they were "arvanites" who were later "hellenized". That nonsense has to stop. The Souliotes are Albanians and the world needs to know. I understand that the Greeks feel like they were given the independence by a bunch of Albanians and they want to hide it, but that's just the truth. Isn't this an Encyclopedia? This is no history book to be told by the winners. Again, if other Albanians such as Sarandioti, know perfectly that they are Albanians they'll state it, but again I ain't Sarandioti. Let's talk about Vangjel Zhapa, with whose money were financed the first modern Olympic games: he was a pure Albanian, lived in Greece but only after he was 33 years old. No: the Greek editors will claim he is only greek.
 * But that is nothing to what happens to the pages like Illyrians, Albanians, Origin of the Albanians, and Albania. They are completely patrolled by the Greek editors, and there are no Albanian editors left. All the Albanian editors have been reported by the Greek editors and blocked or banned. The Greek editors' theory can be summarized as follows: Illyrians have disappeared. Thracians have disappeared. Albanians? We don't know where they came from: they are mentioned only in the 11th century. Probably moesians? Probably Thracians? Probably this or that? No theory is plausible because they are strange and no one knows who they really are. We just don't know and no one can. Casting a shadow of mystery seems like a very good plan to make today's Albanians seem as if they are foreigners in their own land, not autochtonous, which in the Balkans would be only the Greek population. No other population in the Balkans can enjoy the autochtonous status but the Greeks, according to these editors The Greek editors by working in tandem will make every edit possible to "forget" their own sources (read Ptolemy, Polibus and Stephanus of Bysantium - all Greeks), that the Albanoi Illyrian tribe has been mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century BC as Arbon, in the 2nd century AD by Polibus as Albanoi, and in the 6th century as Albonios by Stephanus of Bysantium as, see Origin_of_the_Albanians. That is proof of the continuity of the Illyrian-Albanian population and the world's historiography has already accepted it. It's the way it's studied in Albania, Russia, Germany, France, USA. In Greece there are other orders, I am affraid. I am here to work on that and change many articles that use double standard.


 * Furthermore, in the article albanian language, Athenean is eager to show that Illyrian has nothing to do with Albanian and makes three edits to blank 72 references ([,, and ) that span from 3 centuries worth of work by first class scholars that start with the polymath [[Gottfried Leibnitz]]. The Greek's aim is to make this academic proved theory "just one of the theories" and not the most plausible one.


 * I'll address now the accusations of Alexikoua one by one:


 * 1) In december I was blocked by Moreschi for disruption at Kosovo, I couldn't have written on Wikipedia. That was no wikibreak, but block. I have no idea what Muzakaj/Sarandioti was doing.
 * 2) Nietzche's quotes are very famous amongst many other contributors, and I really don't remember who I borrowed those sayings, but that's really ridiculous. (by that same token I could accuse you and Athenean to be obsessed with Himare and be the socks of one another.


 * 1) Cerciz Topulli and Bajo Topulli: they are extremely popular heroes in Albania there are movies on them. Normal that Sarandioti and I may be fond of them. Are you upset because they killed the Greek Archbishop?
 * 2) Jakup Veseli: Athenean made sure to bring it to AfD, shouldn't I defend an Albania's founding father? Besides it was very sneaky from you Greek editors to make sure to bring to AfD the Albanian founding fathers coming from Chameria
 * 3) Advocating why a number of Albanian accounts were banned in the past: I'll continue to do it because as this report is in bad faith, I suspect that you have done others to people who weren't the socks of one another. And I have already been accused of being the sock of Guildenrich, so I know what you are capable of.
 * 4) In regards to Alexandros Vasileiou and my related edit : I left the pooor Vasileiou there, just alphabetized the notable people: Why would you have the right to patrol the Albanian page of Gjirokaster, and I wouldn't???
 * 5) In Korce: This edit was to get out your Greek POV that this person is notable when there is no article on him. First do an article then put it as notable. Even in the talk page other people have stated that this person is not notable at all.
 * 6) Regarding the irony that I use: Can't I state that there is Wikiaddiction? Or should I bring the examples of your own irony? These are the trolling comments or insults from Alexikoua in one single talk page (@Vangjel Zhapa]] see, , , , ,
 * Hm, I see that Sarandioti has called you "Greek team". I have said that you work in tandem and that has been noticed by lots of other editors, not only Sarandioti and I.
 * 1) Accusations against FPS: That admin is from Germany but has a good knowledge of Greek per his user page, I presume a Greek parented emigrant in Germany. Sarandioti has noticed too? We must be both right.
 * 2) Use of capitals to emphasize specific words? That is very common (it would be the equivalent of SHOUTING), but yes I do it when I want to emphasize something. Nothing to do with this Kreshniku that you are mentioning now.
 * 3) Greek is often mentioned with -g- while Albanian always with -A-: Hm, I apologize for doing that. I admit, I have done it in the past, but I don't do that any more, because I understand that the Greek users might get offended. Again, I did that to belittle the Greeks, and I got blocks for it, if Sarandioti has done that as well, probably he has gotten blocks like I did. I am more respectful now.

Comment on the "new guise" accusation": This accusation is completely unfounded but I'll have to address it anyways. Your fantasy is unbeleivable.
 * 1) I'm not interested in athletics anymore: I wish I could have the time, with all the reports that I get from the Greek editors, like this one. Hoever it's not even true that I haven't made edits in sports pages as you can enjoy them done just 9 days ago on 9 FEBRUARY 2010 at the Albania_national_football_team where I have been a long time contributor, actually my first edit there  was on 11 SEPTEMBER 2008!!!
 * 2) Putting links on my contributions like saying Look, I'm not a sock? Hahaha, this will remain in the history of Wikipedia: Since when putting your contributions' link means "look I'm not a sock"? Once that I started having more than 1000 edits, I felt proud of having to show the appropriate contributor banners, and you have to substantiate that, that's why I put the link to my list of contributions.
 * 3) Taking the teddy bear instead of the Hitler looking stuff? I have always hated nazism, as a matter of fact I am interested in Albanian trotskyist communists see my last edits yesterday in Llazar Fundo (before you filed this report) (see ).


 * This is the n'th bad faith report that I have gotten from the Greek editors. I am by myself and they work in tandem. I am no Sarandioti or anybody else, but Sulmues, a very honest intellectual that works and contributes for free in Wikipedia. It's incredible that I be accused that I am Sarandioti and Sulmues contacted me and gave me passwords, this is pure fantasy or bad-faithed reporting. My outburst to Moreschi in early December 2009 to leave wikipedia was because of the frustration that I had to be banned unjustly from Kosovo topics. With a cooler head I realized that that was exactly what the Greek editors (Alexikoua and Athenean) were wishing and I deemed that it would be best to stay in Wikipedia and help find better sources rather than quitting. I ain't no quitter, Athenean and Alexikoua know it, so they file these socketpuppetry reports because they have to try it all. I demand that once that this investigation finishes I receive excuses from all the users that are accusing me, especially Athenean, Alexikoua and Tadija. I still have not received excuses from Athenean when he falsely accused me to be Guildenrich. Now Alexikoua is doing the same and I will demand his excuses as well, as this is no circus. Sometimes I have the feeling that I can really collaborate with these people, like in the Protocol of Corfu, but sometimes I feel that they really don't want me around. I don't think we can have a good relationship unless they respect me. I demand respect because I have been an excellent contributor in many articles by almost 4k edits. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 14:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * In response to the comment by Ptolion: I hope that's the case because I am not trying to hide anything, on the contrary I am telling all my story in Wikipedia here. But the accusations are pretty heavy. Athenean and Alexikoua are saying that Sarandioti would have contacted me off wiki and I would have given him my password. This is absurd. And how would the Checkuser find out who is writing??? I'm not familiar with the tool, anyways, but if Alexikoua and Athenean have the time to write these thesis to kick me out, I'll have to expose what they are doing. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 18:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments by other users
Excellent report. There is definitely something strange going on here. First, I note that Sulmues' edits prior to Dec 1 2009 were almost exclusively related to soccer (his first 500 edits or so). In his early days, he also never once showed the slightest interest to anything related to Greece or Greece-Albania articles. Nor did he show the slightest interest in fixing up his userpage. Starting Dec 1, something happens: Sulmues goes into overdrive, starts fixing up his userpage and becomes very interested in articles that Sarandioti & socks were interested in, e.g. Kitsos Tzavelas, Souliotes (a particular favorite of Sarandioti and his sock Keshnik25), while his interest in soccer articles is present but slowly fading. If we look at his 500 most recent edits, his interest in soccer has evaporated, and he has instead become obsessed with things Sarandioti was, namely adding Jakup Veseli to the list of notable people in Margariti , which was one of Sarandioti's very first edits and one of his favorite obsessions. This is a fairly obscure individual and a fairly obscure small town in northwestern Greece that very few people would know about, so this is even more strange. Also very telling is his changing of importance to Cham Albanians to WP:SQ, another Sarandioti (and Kreshnik) favorite. The shared obsession with the "Notable Individuals" section of Korce and Gjirokaster is also very odd. As if that weren't enough, the references to Nietzsche on the userpages of both User:Sulmues and User:Alarichus (a sock of Sarandioti) quacks VERY loudly.

Sulmues has also been extremely active since his return from his December 28 block, performing over 3000 edits in less than two months, while prior to December he had performed only 500 edits in a year and a half. Strange behavior indeed for someone who explicitly and repeatedly stated that he "wanted out" of Wikipedia:.

Here's what I think may have happened: Following his outburst, the real Sulmues decided to quit wikipedia. Sometime before December 28, he was contacted off-wiki by Sarandioti and persuaded to hand over his password. Since the real Sulmues had decided to quit wikipedia, he presumably didn't care. Then on December 28, Sarandioti in the guise of Sulmues bursts on the scene. At first he is careful to edit soccer articles and not focus too much on the articles that Sarandioti was interested in, but gradually and carefully, he reverted to form, with the result that the current Sulmues edits articles that Sarandioti was interested in and has largely forgotten Sulmues' old interests. The transition was done smoothly and gradually over a period of two months so as to not raise suspicion. Sarandioti has tried various sockpuppetry methods in the past, but always got caught. Presumably, he has learned from his mistakes and past SPIs and has become really good at covering his tracks. Athenean (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I must say something. As i was deeply involved in blocking two of Sarandioti's socks, Kreshnik and Muzakaj, i had that "honor" of knowing Sarandioti's way of editing quite well. This is such a DUCK, that i cannot say almost anything else. Souliotes, marvelously spotted Nietsche's quotes, notable peoples section, i also had problems with Kreshnik with Gjirokastër, which was vandalized also by him. . Putting obvious sockpuppet a side, all Sulmues edits are quite often so POV, (as Sarandioti's), that editing articles that are under ARBMAC restriction (entire Balkan) can be highly disputed and unwanted in this way. Athenean's version from above sounds a bit odd, but from this user, i will expect absolutely anything. Sarandioti = Sulmues. --Tadija (talk) 12:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Sulmues, if you're not Sarandioti, then the checkuser will show that. You don't have to write such a long thesis trying to get the request thrown out, it looks as though you're trying to hide something.--Ptolion (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Two notes: could a clerk please restore the customary link to the Sockpuppet investigations/Sarandioti/Archive in the header? Second: if I remember correctly from the Alarichus report, Alarichus claimed to be highly mobile and edit from a wide variety of locations. Thus, if he changed places recently, the CU findings might be less informative than the behavioural evidence, which I find strong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ SpitfireTally-ho! 19:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments
Requested by Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC) I am fairly certain that this case passes WP:DUCK, a checkuser would be useful in proving this beyond any doubt.Alexikoua (talk) 23:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

. Peter Symonds ( talk ) 23:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * These accounts are actually to be socks of each other -  A l is o n  ❤ 11:28, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It's possibly meatpuppetry, but that needs to be discussed somewhere other than SPI. I have discussed this with Peter Symonds (an admin), and he has agreed that no action needs to be taken by SPI here. Please do not continue to edit this case. Thank you, SpitfireTally-ho! 12:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Evidence submitted by User:Athenean
User:Kushtrim123, who also edits using the IP 80.80.167.1, is very reminiscent of the banned User:Sarandioti, a prolific sockpuppeteer. Specifically:


 * From his very first edits, he is quite familiar with wikipedia jargon:   .  He uses "rv" in his edit summaries, knows what "pov" and "synth" mean, and also knows how to file an ANI report .  This indicates that this account is a sock beyond any doubt.


 * The edit-summaries that Kushtrim uses are very similar to those that Sarandioti and his army of socks used, particularly the more recent User:Kreshnik25 and User:Muzakaj accounts. He reverts aggresively, calls others' edits "vandalism" , which Sarandioti and socks did too [].


 * Kushtrim is interested in virtually the same articles as Sarandioti, namely Margariti, Himare, Cham Albanians, and Ali Pasha. The case of Margariti is particularly instructive, as this is a very small, obscure village in a very remote part of Greece which Sarandioti was particularly obsessed with almost from the very beginning .  The odds of a brand new new user sharing this interest and aggressively edit-warring in the same manner are small indeed.


 * The level of English is about the same as Sarandioti's, as are the hours of activity.


 * Sarandioti and socks also had an interest in Kosovo-related articles, something which Kushtrim does also.


 * A particular obsession of Sarandioti and socks was removing from the lead the Greek name of places in Albania , something which Kushtrim shares to a very high degree.


 * Almost all of Kushtrim's edits are reverts of myself or User:Alexikoua. These two reverts in particular , to two articles that Kushtrim or Sarandioti had never shown the slightest interest in, almost certainly indicate that Kushtrim is following my every move.  Strange behavior for a brand-new user.  On the other hand, Sarandioti was largely banned as a result of an SPI I initiated, as have almost all of his previous socks.  It is natural to expect him to nurse a pathological hatred of me, as this frivolous attempt to get me blocked at ANI shows.


 * Sarandioti and socks had an obsessive dislike of one particular source, something which Kushtrim does too.


 * Even the user names are similar: One of Sarandioti's socks is User:Kreshnik25.  In both cases, it is an Albanian first name with a number.  Creativity was never Sarandioti's forte, either.


 * User:ObserverFromAbove is a similar case of a user that is familiar with wiki terminology, pushing the same POV on the same articles as Kushtrim and Sarandioti's past socks (e.g. on Vjose, Sali Butka, etc...).  His edit summaries are similar  to those of Sarandioti.  The POV-pushing in the last diff is also vintage Sarandioti.  This user was also using an open proxy that has since been blocked, and he has disappeared since then.  User:Kushtrim123 become really active on March 2, the date Observer's open proxy was blocked.


 * The 24, 79, and 92 IPs are revert-only throwaway IPs, and they revert in those articles where Kushtrim is active (Pyrros Dimas, Erseka, History of Albania, Panajot Pano, Ali Pasha, Himare, Sali Butka, the list goes on and on). They always revert whenever Kushtrim gets involved in an edit-war.  It also is possible they are meatpuppets recruited off wiki, since we know Sara is busy off-wiki.  He has even created a youtube channel about his obsessions.


 * On March 10th it seems like Sarandioti created himself yet another account: User:ZjarriRrethues.  Note the bizarre warning he has posted on his talkpage User_talk:ZjarriRrethues and compare it with the intensity with which Kushtrim blanks his talkpage from warnings .  Also compare it with the bizarre insistence of the Kreshnik25 sock not to leave messages on his talkpage .  I also note that the latest account dives headfirst into current disputes, such as in History of Albania, and knows his way around wikipedia quite well. If that's not a sock I don't know what is.  Athenean (talk) 18:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sarandioti really really HATES warnings and templates on his talkpage, with a vengeance        .  Something all these new accounts (Kushtrim, Zjarri) seem to share as well.

In the past Sarandioti has used all kinds of tricks to avoid detection of his socks (at one point he was using up to 16 different internet cafes in a desperate attempt to foil the checkuser). In this case the quacking is so loud that a checkuser is not even necessary. The tone and nature of the edit-summaries, in particular, are pure Sarandioti. There's no telling what tricks he is using now to try and foil a checkuser (open proxy, ip spoofing, etc...), but at this point I don't even think it's necessary. Athenean (talk) 01:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments by accused parties
See Defending yourself against claims.

All this supposed evidence that shows I'm a sockpuppet is not evidence at all since a)As an Albanian of course I am interested in Albanian related articles and as Sarandioti is an Albanian of course he is interested in Albanian history. Most editors who live in the Balkans edit at the same timezones. Does that sound strange enough to be evidence of anything? Unless Sarandioti can teleport in Albania,Macedonia,Germany and Kosovo at the sime time all those IPs are not sockpuppets of any user. WHOIS is informative you might want to use it before harassing other users. I read this report of yours and User:Alexikoua where you both were 100% sure that user http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sulmues was a sockpuppet of Sarandioti, and you were asking not to initiate an ip check but block him directly. Eventually you didn't achieve that and it was shown that he had no relation to him. You used the same arguments at that case too. Now you are trying to get admins to block me without even checking if I am related to this user or not because you know that I'm not related to him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive#Report_date_September_13_2009.2C_04:52_.28UTC.29_2 --Kushtrim123 (talk) 14:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * All Albanian editors share the same obsession with Margariti and Souliotes? Why no interest in non-battleground articles like Tirane?  Nice try, but you sound exactly like Sarandioti.  Keep talking, it will only make it more obvious.  I also see you created a new one a few days ago .  Love the "warning" on the talkpage, it's classic Sara.  Do you really think you are so smart you can fool an entire community?  Athenean (talk) 18:09, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL, this is exactly what you said at Sulmues, whom you also thought to be 100000% sockpuppet of Sarandioti. Can you or can't you see when users register? That user registered 3 days ago not today. You seem to think that every Albanian user is this Sarandioti. Why don't you report that user and see what happens.--80.80.167.1 (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Your smugness and sarcasm reminds me very much of someone else's    .  Like I said, keep babbling, you're only making it easier. Athenean (talk) 20:12, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Just wait for the ip results, I know that I'm not a sockpuppet and you know it and that's why you're trying to get me blocked without the administrators checking my ip. After this is over I'll have a lot of links to add at the report I opened about you harassing me.--Kushtrim123 (talk) 06:50, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You mean the one that was completely ignored by the entire community? Guess you have never heard of the "duck test". Athenean (talk) 07:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I saw that link and I made my comments on it, so it wasn't ignored. --sulmues (talk) 12:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what all of this is about, but let's get over with it and please don't disrupt me again for such nonsense. Is there a way to speed up the process of technically checking the IPs?--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

After reading the whole report I can only say that it's at least..bizarre. A notification I wrote where I ask not to write irrelevant messages is proof that I am another user? Whatever... Run the script or program you have to see if I am that user.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 10:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I want to say here that this user Athenean is following me around in all my edits in wikipedia.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments

 * ObserverFromAbove is, he appears to be editing from proxies.
 * All of the others are . One of the IPs is one of the named editors, editing before he created an account, since this isn't against the rules, I'm not going to make the connection. As in the last case, there is always the possibility of meatpuppetry, but that can't really be determined here. -- Versa geek  18:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is willing to take any action at this time, especially given the fairly negative CU evidence. Marking as closed. –MuZemike 20:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Evidence submitted by Athenean

 * Background

Sarandioti was a particularly disruptive nationalist Albanian editor who, after multiple blocks for disruption, was eventually indef blocked for sockpuppetry in September of 2009. He has since created several sockpuppet accounts, and I strongly believe ZjarriRrethues is his latest.

Sarandioti's last confirmed socks on en-wiki were and, though the last confirmed sighting of Sarandioti was on the Commons, were he was up to the usual trolling and edit-warring  as recently as February 25-27 2010. At exactly the same time,, editing from an open proxy , suddenly becomes involved in an ongoing dispute at Skenderbeg. In addition to the odd-sounding name and the fact that he edits from an open proxy, what arouses suspicion about Observer is that he seems to follow around me and User:Alexikoua, Sarandioti's arch-enemies, from the get-go. Here, he follows Alexikoua to an extremely obscure, just-created orphan article , which he could only have possibly found out about by looking at Alexikoua's contribs. Here, he posts at AN/I within six minutes of me posting , though I haven't had the slightest interaction with him up to this point, and a bona fide new user would not even be aware of my existence, as I didn't participate in the discussion at Skanderbeg, let alone follow my contribs in real time. Others also express suspicion that this is a sock of Sarandioti. On March 1 the proxy from which Observer edits is blocked, and Observer soon after vanishes without a trace. Strange behavior for someone who was building a userpage, joining wikiprojects , etc.

ZjarriRrethues is created on March 10, and I become aware of him on March 13, when he becomes involved in a highly arcane, obscure ongoing dispute between Greek and Bulgarian editors regarding 19th century ethnographic maps of the Balkans. Since then, I have been observing him closely, and am now fully convinced we are dealing with none other than Sarandioti himself. There is much evidence that ZjarriRrethues is not a new user, and even more that he is in fact Sarandioti.


 * WP:PRECOCIOUS
 * Zjarri knows about warning templates right from the start.
 * Zjarri claims he will know everything about wikipedia within a month, which sounds more like a sockpuppeteer trying to allay suspicion from others about how come he knows so much about wikipedia so soon than a genuine new user.
 * Zjarri dives into ongoing disputes right away, as with the ethnographic maps mentioned above, or at Skanderbeg  (picking up right where Observer left off).
 * As EdJohnston commented in one of the diffs above, Zjarri knows a lot about wikipedia for such a new account. Within a week of creating his account, he has made about 250 edits, some of which reveal a lot of knowledge about wikipedia, practically re-writing articles from scratch, adding templates, adding obscure ethnographic maps, sourcing, etc:      .  Here he participates at a 3RR report on his 6th day of editing, explaining to everyone what a revert is .  He creates his first DYK  within 8 days of editing.
 * Zjarri is fluent with quoting wikipolicy, all within the first month of opening an account:.
 * In addition, within the first month of editing, Zjarri is dishing out advice at AN/I , files an AIV report , files an SPI , files a 3RR report , participates at AfD, knowing what a content fork is , and requests a page move in a highly knowledgeable manner .  All within a month of editing (by which time he has ~1000 edits).


 * Similarities with Sarandioti
 * When Zjarri creates his talkpage, he does so by posting this bizarre warning, telling others not to leave warnings or he'll report them.  I have never seen such pre-emptive hostility from a new user (let alone one who knew about reporting users).  It's as if he expects trouble ahead.  Tellingly, a similarly bizarre "notice" was used to dissuade users from posting on the talkpage of the Kreshni25 sock account.
 * Zjarri is fluent in Greek, French & German .  These are exactly the same languages that Sarandioti is fluent in.
 * All of Zjarri's IPs that I have seen on IRC chat are in Athens, Greece. We know that Sarandioti lives in Greece, and the Alarichus sock  was based in Athens.
 * One of Sarandioti's MAJOR obsessions was removing of Greek names from towns in Albania       and the concurrent addition of Albanian names to towns in Greece     , a trait Zjarri shares to a very high degree      (as well as labeling the removal of Albanian names as "vandalism").
 * In conjunction with name removal, Sarandioti was particularly fond of cramming as many notable people of Albanian ethnicity in city articles, while at the same time removing notable Greeks, as a way of increasing the "Albanian-ness" and decreasing the "Greekness" of these places  , a trait also shared to a large extent by Zjarri.
 * Drawing a distinction between Greeks and Greek-speakers was extremely important to Sarandioti  , a trait shared by Zjarri
 * Sarandioti had a marked tendency to dismiss edits he disagreed with by incorrectly accusing his opponents of WP:IDONTLIKEIT , a trait shared to a very large extent by Zjarri     , who bandies it about all the time.
 * Sarandioti liked to use WP:BRD as a way of justifying his reverts, something which Zjarri does also.
 * Sarandioti had a marked tendency of changing headings on his talkpage that he didn't like , something which Zjarri unmistakably replicates.
 * A strong overlap in articles, including highly obscure ones . There is hardly an article edited by Sarandioti that is not edited by Zjarri.  Of course, Zjarri has edited a lot more articles than Sarandioti, since many articles now exist that didn't when Sarandioti was still around.
 * Zjarri absolutely HATES warnings on his talkpage, and removes them immediately  , just like Sarandioti.
 * Zjarri is active on IRC chat every single day, as were ALL of Sarandioti's socks (Alarichus, Kreshnik, Muzakaj)
 * Zjarri has a habit of copy-pasting the same edit summary for identical edits, exactly like Sarandioti
 * Zjarri is characterized by an extreme defensiveness, always admonishing others to stop accusing him, taking any criticism as a personal attack, and especially likes to remind users that they have been "warned by admins"   .  He sounds EXACTLY like Sarandioti.
 * Regarding linguistic evidence, I further note that Zjarri claims on this page that he speaks Spanish, and I note that Sarandioti created this article based on a single Spanish-language, which he obviously must have understood quite well in order to do so.  Regarding Sarandioti's so-called "mistake", it seems he got it right after all.

What removed any remaining doubts in my mind that ZjarriRrethues is a sock of Sarandioti was the time pattern of his edits. When we look at the distribution of times that the two accounts edit, they are identical down to the last detail. Note how the hours 1-5 UTC are the only ones that are relatively free of any edits, how editing usually begins around 6 am UTC, reaching a peak of activity around 9-10 am, followed by a dip around 12-13 (lunch?), reaching a secondary peak in the late afternoon and evening hours, finally tapering off around 00 hours. This is even more true if we compare the last 800 edits of ZjarriRrethues Sarandioti's ~800 edits (so that the graphs have the same number of entries):. Identical! Now, there are many, many users in that time zone, but NONE have a pattern so closely resembling that of Sarandioti. I was also struck that Zjarri stays on till very late (2-3 am Greek time, UTC+2), just like Sarandioti. Compare Sarandioti's "bedtime" with some of Zjarri's recent "bedtimes". Even when he doesn't edit particularly late, he is on IRC chat every single day till 2-3 am.
 * Time of edits

Also very telling is the fact that Zjarri sounds exactly the same as Sarandioti. Many of the the figures of speech and expressions the two accounts use are identical. This evidence is listed in Table format here.
 * Figure of speech

Note the length of most talkpage posts is roughly the same (mostly one-two liners, occasionally 4-5 sentences, anything longer than that is quite rare), many are quite defensive, condescending, and incivil, the level of English is the same, and the frequency with which he uses edit summaries is about the same.

Once I became convinced that Zjarri was a sock of Sarandioti, I let it be known that I would file an SPI in the near future. Almost immediately, the original Sarandioti awakens from his apparent slumber to post an unblock request on his talkpage. In addition to the strange timing, what is also suspect about this request is that when I post on his talkpage opposing the unblock request, contrary to Sarandioti's explicit instructions, there are none of the expected howls of protest and indignation by Sarandioti. Stranger still, Sarandioti does not protest when the request is turned down. Not a peep. This is identical to the behavior after Sarandioti was blocked for creating his first sock, Alarichus (see point #2 in evidence). There is also a two hour gap between Zjarri's last edit prior to the request, the unblock request by Sarandioti, and the resumption of editing by Zjarri. This gives him plenty of time to go to another internet cafe to post the unblock request, so as to be CU-safe.
 * A strange unblock request

I apologize for the the length of this SPI, but I am convinced that Zjarri has found a way to cover his tracks IP-wise, so behavioral evidence is key. I have been observing Zjarri on IRC for quite some time, and I note that while all of his IPs are from Athens, he uses a different ISP than Sarandioti (who used Otenet). Same location, different ISP. In the past, I hastily and carelessly included Zjarri in an SPI I filed. There was much IP disruption at the time, and many of these IPs used edit-summaries highly reminiscent of Sarandioti. At the time, I was so confident that I would catch him as easily as in the past, that I included minimal behavioral evidence, thinking the CU would prove me right. However, since by then he had presumably changed ISPs (or started frequenting netcafes that used a different ISP), the CU came up negative. It is possible, if not easy, for a particularly determined sockpuppeteer to change ISPs or frequent different netcafes (and Sarandioti is nothing if not determined). However, it is impossible for him to change cities. I am not requesting a CU, because the logs for Sarandioti are by now stale, however, IF a CU is performed, I have no doubt that it will show that Zjarri is editing from the same city as Sarandioti. The odds of two different people sharing the same exact POV, speaking the same languages with the same level of fluency, and editing with the same time pattern from the same foreign city are small indeed. Combined with the overwhelming behavioral evidence, I think there is no doubt that ZjarriRrethues is a sock of Sarandioti.
 * Previous SPI

So that this page does not degenerate into the kind of circus that the last SPI involving an Albanian user did (Guildenrich), I ask that participants try to limit themselves to a single post discussing the evidence and use the SPI talkpage for discussion. I would like to conclude the investigation by pointing out that we are not dealing with a run-of-the-mill amateur sockpuppeteer here. This is a serial sockpuppeteer who has been socking pretty much non-stop since this time last year. As soon as one account was blocked, he would pop up another one. I don't think there is ANY length that Sarandioti would not go to to continue socking, whether it is changing ISPs and computer, frequenting a different netcafe, using a proxy, etc... Athenean (talk) 23:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I fully expected nothing more of Zjarri than to come here and try to use the previous SPI to attack my credibility and generally sling mud and throw as much vitriol as possible. Yet he still cannot explain or deny how come he is based in the SAME CITY as Sarandioti AND happens to share the identical hard-nationalist POV. AND how come he speaks the same languages AND how come he sounds just like Sarandioti AND how come he has EXACTLY the same editing schedule (not just the same time zone, mind you). He cannot satisfactorily answer any of those. His defense mostly consists of personal attacks against me, and is somewhat similar to the defense of the Alarichus sock, who bragged about his many "valuable" contribs and DYKs as a defense that he is not a sock (a "good-hand" sock account, the bad-hand sock accounts of Muzakaj and Kreshnik were so obvious they were blocked pronto). In the previous SPI that he cites as proof of his innocence, he was cleared because I included him hastily and did not include any behavioral evidence (and regret doing that). Sulmues and Kushtrim were cleared because they presumably geolocated very differently from Sarandioti. If Zjarri shared the same POV as Sarandioti but geolocated differently, like Kushtrim and Sulmues did, I'd say fine, he's not a sock. If he shared the same geolocation, but the behavioral evidence was weaker, I'd also accept that he's not a sock. Yet here we have overwhelming behavioral evidence COMBINED with damning geolocation information. This case thus consists of nothing more than putting 2+2 together. Lastly, if I were falsely accused of being a sock of someone, I wouldn't get angry, I would laugh and ignore the report. Not come out guns blazing, insulting and threatening to take the filer to AE. To me, that is just further evidence of guilt. Athenean (talk) 01:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Response to Zjarri

Comments by accused parties
See Defending yourself against claims. Well I must say that after being threatened by this user so many times I was wondering when he would report for something else other than being a sockpuppet. Replies:
 * All the articles I've edited have also been edited by almost all active Albanian users on wikipedia like.
 * All the summaries I have been using have also been used by most Albanian editors and some of them were copied by other users. Most users do have edit-summaries they frequently use.
 * I don't think I have been incivil in wikipedia and I certainly don't think that I have left messages insulting anyone like the user whose sock I'm supposed to be.
 * I have already been proved not to be someone's sock in the past report of me being .
 * "Major naming obsession", well if that's an argument used by Athenean, then my reply would be that all users in Albanian-Greek related articles seem to be doing the same thing. In fact Athenean himself along with other users like Alexikoua have been doing the same thing but I haven't reported the one being a sock of the other.
 * Distinction between Greeks and Greek-speakers? Athenean I think I should remind you WP:OR, so if Sarandioti wanted to follow the policy then I'm certainly not the one responsible. It seems that all user on Albanian-related article have been the same thing like Alexikoua in this edit making a distinction between Albanians and Albanian-speaking people.
 * Time of edits?Using the same argument I could say that Alexikoua is also a sock of Sarandioti because he has approximately the same editing frequency. Is that an argument for anything else other than proving same timezone?


 * I find it extremely disruptive that you feld the need to use this much server space to proceed in an attempt to remove me from wikipedia like you did with and  whom you reported or co-reported as Sarandioti's socks with approximately the same arguments as they too noticed. I have already been proven not to be the one who apparently according to you is the sockmaster of all Albanian editors. This is behavior of yours will be reported to AE and I will ask for a solution.(Btw the same arguments have been used in all your past failed reports and most of my answers have been also used to refute them)


 * When I was CUed about 3 months ago it was shown that I wasn't him and Athenean suggests that somehow there has been an ISP change to fit his theory? Btw Athenean used a similar theory to frame Sulmues as Sarandioti when he suggested that Sulmues had given his password to Sarandioti and then left wikipedia, so I think that this user's reliability is obvious.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Update: It seems that Sarandioti about just month ago asked to be unblocked so really why would anyone who already controls all these accounts  and frequently edits from them even bother doing such a thing when he has already "escaped" the CU?(After me bringing Athenean just made up a new theory, now according to this theory I was presumably running from place to place trying to evade him). I think that this report/harassment/extreme outing attempt is getting far too disruptive and hilarious at the same time because the user who reported me is making up even wilder theories to explain simple facts so they can fit his theory. Excuse me if I sound a bit arrogant and maybe frustrated but I'm reported for the second time after 3-4 months of continuous threats of reports by someone who has been 3 years in wikipedia and since then has created 4 articles(1 of which a cfork), got blocked and now is under a 1RR, while I who have been just a few months have created 73 articles about 25 of which have been featured in DYK. Should I continue defending myself against wild theories like those already mentioned? I think that I should write an article I have postponed too long and make it my first FA, instead of replying to users who have no interest in the project itself but are concerned in defending the "truth".


 * I didn't bother taking a look at Athenean's evidence table but the so-called evidence doesn't look like evidence because the use of phrases like "Sure..." is widespread and very common in fact most English speakers do use that phrase so where's the evidence? All the other "evidence" is just as "common" and frankly some of the pairs are totally unrelated. Especially the use of "Sure" or "Sure I will etc." is of the same importance as the use of the verb "be".


 * Athenean reports that I'm a "hardcore nationalist"(the verdict is on my block log), which I'm not and also I should report that Athenean clings so much on some of his theories because he has plainly no evidence for anything. As the report showed I have nothing in common with "my sockmaster" and as for the languages part well if I'm correct Sulmues also speaks many languages like many Albanians and how does Athenean that Sarandioti or I actually speak all of them or are fluent because on the net a translators can be used and even if we spoke all languages then would that prove anything?. Athenean seems to be so sure that similar geolocation is a sign but then if two people live in New York are they the same person? I also should mention that Athenean already knows where I live because he (himself or through others) has been pinging and whoising me on IRC and whenever I talked to them they immediately left but it was quite obvious who was who because they talked to others trying to convince them to ban me. Well, the previous CU showed who I am or not very clearly, so Athenean's insistence is an outing attempt because partially I'm responsible for the fact that today he's under 1RR so I can understand his course of actions. Again excuse me if I sound a bit arrogant but I never honestly thought that this user would go that far to remove my presence from wikipedia.
 * Btw if anyone's interested in how many languages I speak know that I speak 7(the other 3 being Turkish, Spanish and Italian, although my Turkish is intermediate), so Athenean might want to look for other people who speak those languages too and report me of being them too.
 * The more I check the so-called evidence the more curous I become about Athenean's cherry-picking of it. I already mentioned the so-called the same phrases but I should also mention this In conjunction with name removal, Sarandioti was particularly fond of cramming as many notable people of Albanian ethnicity in city articles a trait Zjarri shares to a very high degree as well as labeling the removal of Albanian names as "vandalism". I would say that the Greek editors are particularly fond of doing that mainly Athenean and Alexikoua who a week ago were edit-warring against Sulmues over BLP notability policy so does that mean that Sarandioti is also the sockmaster of all these users(I just took a 15 minute look and I found more than 100 such cases). Obviously this is a widespread phenomenon in such articles so why am I exlusively cherry picked when these activities have started and continued long before me even coming in wikipedia? It seems that you guys were having such conflicts all the time, so why is it so strange that naturally sometimes I got engaged in situations you had started? This isn't something that Sarandioti started and I supposedly continued where he left over, but something you had all been doing so framing this on me is extremely disruptive when just 2-3 days before this report Athenean was behaving in the same exact way that is used as an argument to prove that I'm someone's sock -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Currently there are 6 million people in Athens about 500.000 of are Albanians and I obviously don't have the same IP as Sarandioti. I haven't seen any intellectual similarity(and please do bring evidence about this because editing articles that all Albanian editors edit isn't even remotely resembling what is termed as evidence) because frankly I can't see any similarities as Sarandioti's two only articles are strictly related to..plants which really isn't a field I have any expertise at all . In fact in his second article Coronopus didymus I had to check the dictionary about the definition of "glabrous"(it means smooth) and "decumbent"(something that is laid down). I don't think that I have ever used this kind of wording in any articles I've written.
 * Athenean provided this diff as evidence that Sarandioti also knew Spanish but it's a diff that shows that he didn't know anything about Spanish [ because a common mistake someone who doesn't know Spanish can make is the following: he can assume that the prefix "la" before a surname is actually part of it and write it together like Sarandioti but actually it's a prefix and is written as la_ before the surname. Translators can help you get the basic meaning of everything but they can't teach you grammar so if you don't know a language you'll make that mistake.--[[User:ZjarriRrethues| — ZjarriRrethues — ]] talk 18:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you because since the first report when I contacted an admin I did state where I live(the timezone is an obvious similarity therefore) so can someone close this at last :). Thankfully this report is over.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

DragonflySixtyseven
For the record: he knows about DYK because I explained it to him on IRC. DS (talk) 23:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues

 * What's this obsession with Sarandioti, Athenean did you forget that you already reported both users (zjarriRrethues and observerfromabove) in an SPI Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive? You also reported me to be Sarandioti's sock Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive. How many times are you going to waste our time with these things? You never apologized for these bogus reports to neither me nor Zjarri nor everyone else. You are harassing all the Albanian editors at this point. And what's this "evidence" that you have? There are 400,000 Albanian emigrants in Greece, have you thought about that fact that Zjarri can be one of the 399,999 left ones, not Sarandioti? --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 12:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to add something else. Any "similarity" between Sarandioti and Zjarri, stays in bringing sources that Athenean doesn't like for topics that are at heart to all Albanians, namely Arvanites, Suliotes, Fustanella, eccetera. The Greek side seems to be intent to forget that the Arvanites heavily contributed to the independence of Greece and liberated the country from the Ottoman invadors. When we Albanian users remind them of these facts, we usually end up in the SPIs started by User:Athenean, who, rather than reporting people, would do the community a better service writing ONE single article that has more than 3 lines. --  S undefined  ulmues (talk) 12:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it was Alexikoua that started the SPI against me, not Athenean, but Athenean endorsed it. They were both sure that I was Sarandioti then too, as they were sure when they endorsed the first investigation against Zjarri and Observerfromabove (this is the second one) check Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive and Sockpuppet_investigations/Sarandioti/Archive. It seems like they are always sure about something when they report and they never apologize for a wrong report. About what Alexikoua says below that I am not fluent in many languages like Sarandioti and ZjarriRrethues are: I am fluent in 6 foreign languages, but Greek, which is not an international language. So for this matter I might be indicted too: please run a checkuser on me again as well. In general Albanians who live abroad know many foreign languages: there is nothing strange with that and it is typical for people who come from small countries. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 13:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I really believe that the editing patterns of these two users are at the opposites. Zjarri has created 73 articles in his timeline in Wikipedia, whereas Sarandioti only 2 articles. Zjarri has created DYKs (a lot: as a matter of fact 75% of the DYKs in WikiProject Albania which has counted more than 60 members over time are Zjarri's: see WikiProject_Albania/Recent_Articles. I would define him as one of the best contributors of WikiProject Albania and really regret seeing him waste time here (like I have too for that matter). --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 14:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And as far as the accusation of meatpuppery is concerned: User:Spitfire clearly explained to me, that if Alexikoua wants to make meatpuppetry accusations, he needs to make them somewhere else: User:Spitfire was not suggesting any meatpuppetry on my side. . I'm done here: people write articles, don't make wikidrama. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * IMO FPS's claim below is based on feelings, not facts, and an investigation based on feelings is a failure of an investigation. I find it very easy that Albanians who know well Greece and the Greek Language might behave similarly, because of their feelings on the Greeks. I find lots of similarities between the Greek users, but not for that I brand them socks of one another. In general I think that actions speak for themselves, louder than talk: Sarandioti left 2 articles behind, wheareas Zjarri has 73 and counting only in the last 4 months. I look at the productivity of each user and they are very far from one another. A person is what he does, not what he says. Queen Elizabeth always punished her citizens based on their deeds, not based on their thoughts. --  S undefined ulmues (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua
Checking Zjarri's defending arguments it’s obvious that something is really wrong on most of them and in fact the sockpuppetry case becomes more than clear:
 * It was me and not Athenean that filled an spi report against Sulmues of being Sarandioti's sockpuppet: and although the cu check was negative the result was 'possible WP:MEATPUPPETRY' [].
 * Most Albanian editors are not nationalistically addicted (apart from 2 and some ip editors): for example experienced editors like Kedadi, Aigest etc, never got involved on childish naming disputes. So, claiming that this is a generalized anti-Albanian attempt is at least a poor argument.
 * Editing from another ISP now, does NOT mean that Zjarri. is a new person here or that we should forgive his past: the specific editor is a tactical sockpuppeter creating a mess over a year now (some 14 months). It's obvious that he tries to find new ways to hide his tracks evading the cu. So, if Zjarri. will receive a new sock ban, I bet that a new account will soon show up (like multiple times in the past).
 * Having DYK credits is also not an argument against sockpuppetry accusations: Alarichus-sock also used the same argument on his spi defense (and Muzakaj tried to send an article to DYK but he was blocked before the nomination), of course it wasn't enough for him too.
 * Both accounts are fluent in exactly the same languages (Greek, French, Spanish, German, Albanian). On the other hand Sulmues is not fluent on the same languages (for example he doesn't speak Greek).
 * Sarandioti&socks started as follows their wiki life (Zjarri. included): all sockaccounts were irc active from the very start [] and he asks to be mentored by experienced users. One of his socks: User:Muzakaj, was also blocked by his irc mentor [].
 * Also noticed that Zjarri. uses exactly the same arguments as his previous socks: Kreshnick accused Athenean because of his 1rr restriction [], the same way Zjarri does in his defense, also 'Muzakaj' claimed that he will creat lots of Ga&Fas for Albania[] (same way Zjarri. claims). If he really has changed into an constructive user he needs to appeal his block as Sarandioti.Alexikoua (talk) 13:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems the behavioral evidence is really strong and Fut. (the only admin that posted comments and knew most of Sarandioti's socks) is 100% sure that he is another sock of his. I also note that Zjari. is really eager to advice administrators (misinterpreting their comments) to close this case soon (perhaps in fear other admins that knew some of the previous sockaccounts agree with Fut's view).Alexikoua (talk) 11:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Fut.Perf.
I've gone on record before saying that I find this highly likely. While not all evidence cited by Athenean is equally strong, the combination of the following factors seems compelling to me: (a) interests, (b) intellectual and linguistic qualifications, (c) geolocation, (d) IRC behaviour, (e) timing of appearance. It's just striking that with Sarandioti–Alrichus–Zjarri, we have had a perfect sequence of unbroken presence of three accounts that have occupied the precise same "ecological niche" on Wikipedia, both in what they do, how they do it, and in what network with others they do it. We've never had any editor that resembled these three (in qualifications, temperament, character and spectrum of interests) in all of four years that I knew this project previously, but since last year we keep getting new ones that resemble one another like like two peas in a pod, one turning up exactly the moment the previous one gets removed. – Subjectively, the most compelling "evidence" in my own eyes is just their personality and style when talking to them on IRC. That's obviously something that cannot easily be described and defined, but they just sound like the same personality. One's character in personal conversation is something that's difficult to fake and conceal. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Shirik
A lot of your arguments are based on "this guy knows too much when he was a new user". My third edit was a PROD nomination. Does that make me a sock too? It's not impossible for people to be familiar with policy. It's not even rare. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 19:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm also not convinced of the point-of-view arguments. It's not atypical for people in the same geographic area to have similar viewpoints on issues. Look at the whole German Wikipedia privacy debate right now on foundation-l. As for geographical location, well, last I checked there are typically more than one person in a city. At some point in time you're going to find editors in the same geographic location. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 19:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Aigest
Just like Shirik I also think that Athenean arguments are more like "this guy knows too much". As for the topics interest, well 8 wikipedians (including me and some others here), 4 Greeks (Megistias, Alexikoua, Athenean, The Cat and the Owl,) and 4 Albanians (Sulmues, Kedadi, Aigest, ZjarriRrethues) had a punishment three months ago for tag teaming reverts, classified as traveling circus by Futper, all the topics mentioned are of let's say different POV interest by Greek and Albanian contributors. Practically every Albanian contributor which lasts some time in wikipedia will have this kind of interest and debates, even anon IP, so I don't find the topic accusation as based. As for the quality of works of Zjarri and his obedience to wikirules, I don't understand how it can be used as an accusation argument?! What remains as an argument of accusation is that the user is from the same geographic location and logs in same periods. I don't know how CU works but as Shirik noted above, in internet era that is something to be expected especially from very populated areas. Last time I checked there were more than 6 million people in Athens, more than Albanians in Albania in total (3.2 million). Aigest (talk) 07:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * From the graphical data of edit count, to me user Zjarrirrethues looks much more similar to user sulmues than to user Sarandioti. For the record, this comment of mine is not an accusation, just an observation. Aigest (talk) 09:25, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Another observation, apart the differences in edit count, user Zjarri Rrethues has a clear interest, almost a "fixation" on articles about individuals and mythology since the beginning up to the present, still creating articles on them, while user Sarandioti was more concern in debating in general about topics especially those regarding Epir, never bothered on other issues, from the beginning up to the end. Aigest (talk) 10:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Kedadi
Oh yet another investigation against Zjarri and it seems to be based on feelings and not on facts. If it was for the articles of interest, then all members of WP:WikiProject Albania would have to be investigated for sock-puppetry because Sarandioti once used to edit the very same articles. To me, these two accounts differ a lot:
 * just check the number of articles created ...
 * check the number of articles brought to DYK.
 * Sarandioti seems to be more like a warrior type of editor while Zjarri is calmed down and gets the job done (By the way he is one of the pillars of WP:WikiProject Albania).

Sarandioti seems to have made an appeal for lifting the ban; why would he do that if he has already established a camouflage with Zjarri account?

Just my 2 cents. Cheers. —  Kedadi  talk  18:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Lontech
as I see the Greek team are assembled again and made this fake request for albanian editors. Greek editors are affraid of zjarri contributions regarding albanian-greek issues so they want him out of wikipedia
 * For athenean this is not the first time making false accusations.-- LONTECH    Talk  19:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Clerk, patrolling admin and checkuser comments
I have a curious request if a CU is willing to take a look at it. Could you go into the logs of the last check (or make a new check). This time, disregard IP information. From the other information available, how similar is the data? Is it still an "unlikely" result? -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 19:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If the CU would like more details on what I'm looking for, etc., please feel free to contact me on IRC or via other private means. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 19:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Please keep comments here and on the talk page civil. If this case cannot proceed in a calm tone people will start being removed from the case. Sh i r ik  ( Questions or Comments? ) 19:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that feelings will be hot in this case. Please try to keep all discussion on this page focused to case matters only. Anything that is unrelated will be removed. Those who persistently cannot remain on the topic of the case itself will find themselves unable to post additional information here. This is the only warning. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 01:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I've spoken to ZjarriRrethues a few times and given him advice on various different matters. As such, I don't feel comfortable doing this check, so I'm recusing. --Deskana (talk) 11:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I do not know any of these editors, nor do I know the history of the issues that led to this request. Looking solely at the technical evidence about the three listed accounts, my findings would be: I say possible, because the two accounts geolocate to the same city, and Sarandioti's most recent edits on June 10 are not inconsistent with the hours of the day that ZjarriRrethues edits. However, other technical data does not match, which while that may be explained by the use of a different machine and/or proxy, does not lend a verdict of Likely/Confirmed on the basis of technical evidence alone. Behavioral evidence will need to be the determining factor here. -- Avi (talk) 02:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I was requesting CU with disregard to IP, but you've told me what I need to hear. I'm going to close this case with no action. I don't believe there is sufficient behavioral evidence here as most of it could be attributed to beliefs common to a city. That this is the second time this case has come through with this result leads me to argue there is no reason to change the result without a significant amount of evidence. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 14:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)