Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Secondarywaltz/Archive

19 February 2015

 * Suspected sockpuppets




 * User compare report Auto-generated every hour.
 * Editor interaction utility

Hello. I am HanSangYoon. I am here to report and point out a user who possibly owns multiple accounts, and is currently using them in an illegal manner.

How? 
 * SecondaryWaltz:
 * This user has been pretty much stalking whatever I was doing for the metro pages, even though I was doing fine, not breaking any rules and simply adding pictures and descriptions. This user decided to stalk my actions on Los Angeles Metro pages without any notification, and revert edits (sometimes multipully) without a proper explanation (he made explanations, but whenever I explained to him in a logical sense, he gave up or repeated of what he said previously). This happened for several days, since around Janaury. I tried to arrange solutions with this user sometimes, and some days, I had to discuss with him to the point where he gave up. I remember telling this user not to revert my edits again without any proper explanation or reason yesterday and to stop being obnoxious and disruptive of my editing.


 * But today, this user decided to join a revert issue between me and RickyCourtney. This user appeared almost instantly as soon as I reverted this user's reverting of my pictures I took and uploaded on Union Station. As soon as Secondarywaltz undid my revertion, I reverted the 2nd time and explained to him that the pictures were not junk, and didn't deserve to be deleted. Then again almost instantly, another user named Martin Morin appeared, undoing my edit the 3rd time (first being Ricky, then Secondary, then Martin). I repeated what I said to this user and undid the edit the 3rd and the final time. Then, a fourth user again with an IP address almost instantly appeared again and undid my triple-revertion. And this happened all in a row, which made me strongly believe Secondarywaltz had used different accounts to manipulate this revertion so that he could escape the three revert rule, and act as if it's four different users: Sock puppeting! Secondarywaltz used mulitple accounts to break the three revert rule.


 * If this incident was a mere coincidence, then how come four different users almost instantly reverted my same image in a row? I don't get what else this wrongful situation could be if it isn't sock-puppeting.

Evidence/Exhibitions?

'''Notice the time of the edits for the next seven evidence links. Notice the reaction timings of each users'''.


 * 1. 00:47- The edit RickyCourtney did (1st revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=prev&oldid=647636108
 * (Platform or placard... who cares? They're awful pictures that don't really serve to show anything other than that placards/signs exist on train platforms.) Commented that my pictures seemed awful and seemed unnecessary that it showed little efficiency


 * 2. 21:17 (Checked the edit)- The edit I did against RickyCourtney (1st revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=next&oldid=647636108
 * (Doesn't matter if you think it's awful. Wikipedia does not go by favoritism, and look at other pages. They're under uniform.) Commented that favoritism wasn't a decisive reason for Wikipedia, and explained of uniformity of metro pages where pictures showed a Platform View and the station description


 * 3. 21:20 The edit Secondarywaltz did (2nd revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=prev&oldid=647766081
 * (A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article) Stressed that Wikipedia wasn't a place where we put unneccessary pictures


 * 4. 21:23 The edit I did against Secondarywaltz (2nd revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=next&oldid=647766081
 * (Why are you being obnoxious again? These images are not junk images. They maintain the standards of other Red Line images of platform views.) Commented that the pictures were not unneccessary, and reconfirmed the statement that metro pages had a uniform organization of platform view and station images


 * 5. 21:31 The edit Martin Morin did (3rd revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=next&oldid=647766465
 * (Not need more) Commented that it wasn't needed


 * 6. 21:34 The edit I did against Martin Morin (3rd revertion): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=next&oldid=647766465
 * (The images are very necessary whether you like it or not. In fact, it has less images than ohter metro pages.) Commented that it was, and had fewer images than other metro pages, so deleting them wouldn't keep the page constant

 
 * 7. 21:36 The edit IP address account did (4th revertion, against the three revert rule): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_Station_(Los_Angeles)&diff=next&oldid=647767948
 * The rude message IJBall described my warnings to the possible sock puppet accounts (and also makes me wonder if IJBall was stalking my actions unrelated to him): "To translate this into English: HanSangYoon has filed both an ANI report and a SPI report against you and multiple others. And he did so without using the proper notice templates to notify you, 'natch. Sigh... --IJBall (talk) 00:43, 19 February 2015 (UTC)"
 * 8. Secondarywaltz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Secondarywaltz
 * 9. RickyCourtney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RickyCourtney
 * 10. Martin Morin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Martin_Morin

(He deleted the warning- probably it means he didn't consider the warning)
 * 11. The message I wrote to IJBall as a warning not to stalk my account (as I presume he did above ↑): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IJBall&diff=647799361&oldid=647651273

P.S. You also patently ignored the advice you got from Mandruss, et al. at the Help desk. Bad move. --IJBall (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2015 (UTC) P.P.S. Oh, and you're supposed to take this particular accusation to WP:SPI, not here, just to complete your 'hattrick'. --IJBall (talk) 22:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)"''' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#I_am_here_to_report_a_Sock_Puppet_Account
 * 12. The message IJBall rudely responded to my accident on putting up the report for Secondarywaltz on a wrong page: ''"Wow. You are flaming out much faster than I expected. First, I'm no one's sockpuppet (in fact, Secondarywaltz and I have even disagreed a couple of times). Second, when you launch in to a process like this, you are supposed to notify all of the people you are accusing of misconduct, something you have patently failed to do. Thirdly, it is you who is edit warring at Union Station (Los Angeles)... Well, I tried to warn you on your Talk page, etc. Don't be surprised if this comes and WP:BOOMERANGs back at you. --IJBall (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


 * 13. The criticism threat I received from the random user NeverMessWithanAsser (this user may have had something to do with Secondarywaltz, even a possible sock puppet account of Secondarywaltz), and my response to the threat (check the bottom of the page): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:HanSangYoon&diff=647804625&oldid=647804419

Other users related to this issue?
 * IJBall- The user that was in a previous metro page conflict yesterday, this user seemed to have gotten into my suspicion when I tried to report Secondarywaltz, but mistakenly did it in a wrong page. As soon as I reported, this user, the same user that appeared in a totally different issue, reappeared, and immediately wrote negative statements that seemed significantly biased against me, and started stalking whatever I did with this issue (of reporting Secondarywaltz). This user posted an offensive message that put me as a person who didn't speak proper English. The 8th to 10th evidence shows the message IJBall placed next to my warning message toward Secondarywaltz, RickyCourtney, and Martin Morin, and also shows what IJBall said about my accidental actions of putting my report on a wrong page.
 * NeverMessWithanAsser- This user is probably the most controversial of all. This user sent an SPI case threat that he (they) would file my account as a 'retaliation' (for criticising Secondarywaltz). The title of his threat was 'You cannot escape this!', which sounds very threatening in my side. The 13th evidence shows the threat (on the bottom of the page). The user Ansh666 thankfully offered to get rid of the 'spam' message.

I am very mortified, and I severely demand justice from these users! HanSangYoon (talk) 04:52, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments by other users
''Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.''

No apparent grounds for checkuser -- the pictures really aren't up to the standard the rest of the article sets, and that's why multiple people are reverting him. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * A patently absurd filing. I would actually welcome a CheckUser as it will verify beyond any doubt the groundlessness of the charges. Is there any penalty for the frivolous filing of charges in cases such as these?... Oh, and one other thing – HanSangYoon is probably also guilty of WP:FORUMSHOPing, as he's filed this report before the frivolous ANI report he just filed on the same "grounds" has even been concluded. --IJBall (talk) 00:38, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not forumshopping, since this is the proper place and AN/I isn't, and they were told explicitly to come here. In any case, WP:BOOMERANG could (and should) still result from the AN/I. Also, CU can't be run on request of the accused, for whatever reason. ansh 666 01:46, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

In other news, the "deleted records" HanSangYoon are talking about are still very publicly available, here. ansh 666 01:48, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment – RickyCourtney and Secondarywaltz are not sockpuppets of each other. They don't even edit the same set of articles that I've ever seen. --IJBall (talk) 04:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IJBall&diff=647800907&oldid=647799361 "When I said I was done talking with you, I wasn't kidding - do not come around here again." -IJBall- And so you think you have the right to come here to put more biased statements against my case? How ridiculous of you. HanSangYoon (talk) 05:07, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * PS, I believe you haven't even read the entire statement I wrote, which explains of how The four users came in a row to revert my edits immediately, and how it cannot be a coincidence.
 * Comments are directed at the other editors, clerks and administrators, not to you. As Mandruss said elsewhere, WP:CIR. --IJBall (talk) 05:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, so my take (I'm uninvolved): (9 years; 2500+ edits, most recently to California transit articles) and  (5 years; 9000+ edits, mostly to transit articles all over the globe though not much recently; claims to be from BC and residing in SoCal *high fives*; has clashed with Secondarywaltz recently) are certaintly unrelated. While it is possible that  (7 years; 24k+ edits, most recently to Canadian transit articles; claims to be from Toronto; autopatrolled and reviewer) and  (6 years; 900+ edits, mostly to Canadian transit articles; claims to be from Canada) are related, I don't think it's particularly likely given tenure and edit counts and such. However, Secondarywaltz does claim on their user page that they have multiple legitimate alternate accounts, though they are undisclosed - I would suggest that they name these if possible to avoid confusion (I found one,, but it's unclear if there are more). Given that the IP  is from Toronto, it's possible that it's either Secondarywaltz or Martin Morin logged out, intentionally or unintentionally. Given their comments here,  is likely a sock of serial troll , who likes screwing with people at SPI (they found this via AN/I, like the other editors they gave trolling barnstars to). ansh 666  05:00, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, on an unrelated, procedural note, I've fixed up the page and moved it to the correct title. ansh 666 05:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) I haven't said that the four users were most certainly sock puppet accounts (in case I am not right). I said it is a high possibility.
 * 2) The oldest account should probably be the main account if Secondarywaltz is really a sock-puppet account. Either ways, the real account could be RickyCourtney in that case. Whatever it is, it would be great if somebody could track down these accounts IP address (which I don't know how to).
 * 3) I still believe Secondarywaltz should be filed for stalking my page, and disruptive editing without any proper explanation. This one is clear for sure.
 * 4) Besides the sock-puppet suspicion, there are also several other issues that remains in this huge issue.
 * HanSangYoon (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Defense - Well this is a new one for me. Never in my 9 years on Wikipedia have I been personally attacked like this by another user.

For what it's worth... I am not a sockpuppet of Secondarywaltz, nor do I control any sockpuppets.

I apologize for calling the photo contributed by HanSangYoon awful, but my questions about its editorial usefulness remain. Since it appears to me that 4 editors independently removed/changed these images, I'm not alone when it comes to concerns about the editorial usefulness. But I digress, discussions about article content should be left to the articles talk page.

--RickyCourtney (talk) 07:38, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I think User:HanSangYoon has been shabbily treated by some of the editors he mentioned, but the fact that three or four of them were following the page and were awake at the same time and jumped in to make edits quickly one after the other is not proof that they are the same person. In fact, it takes time to log out of one account and into another one. I advise everybody to calm down and take the matter of the photos to the Talk Page of the Union Station article. In fact, I will start a discussion over there under the title "What photographs should we use?" Thanks. GeorgeLouis (talk) 08:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur. As an involved editor, I think this is four different people who all disagree with the photo additions. Epic Genius (talk) 14:52, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

In my defense My alternate account is Sw2nd (Secondary-Waltz-Second), which I maintain to watch transit articles outside North America. Otherwise my main watch list would be overwhelming. I believe Martin Morin must live in my area since many of his edits have been to the same local transit subjects. I am also aware of the good work done by, IJBall and RickyCourtney, the other editors involved. This unfounded charge has obviously been filed by someone who is frustrated at having their poor edits reverted by numerous editors who agree that what he was doing was wrong. Secondarywaltz (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm still planning to file you for being corruptive. Your biased statement that I'm falsely making poor edits isn't the reason, for your information. HanSangYoon (talk) 00:42, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Follow-up: I have no idea if this will be considered germane to the present action, but I think it's best if this and this and this are added to the case file. The clerks, et al. can do with this as they see fit... --IJBall (talk) 04:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

 * OK, this needs to stop. What I see here is an ungrounded SPI request that is filled out in fury. HanSangYoon, you have to understand that accusing other editors for stalking, harassing, etc. is not a good practice, especially when you have no evidence of that. The fact that multiple editors reverted your contribution might indeed be a sign of sockpuppetry, but you have to learn to tell it in a civil and calm manner. Making so much drama like you did will usually turn against you at the end. Anyway, after reading tons of text here, at the ANI, HelpDesk and numerous talk pages (this even took me to the Commons ), I came to the conclusion that there is no sockpuppetry here.But, IJBall also showed a high level of incivility in this case. He accused HanSangYoon of incompetence numerous time both here and at the ANI. That is not a good practice at all. Competence is required, but it is not inherited. IJBall, if you find out that the user is acting wrongly, try to help him, to teach him, and not to accuse him of being ignorant or dishonest. Acting like that only makes the situation worse. HanSangYoon is not a new user, but his low edit count shows that he is still inexperienced, so he still needs to learn. And, as I understand, English is not his first language, so he may not understand the strength of words he used. Anyway, I advice you all to calm down and to resolve this issue with Metro station images at the appropriate talk pages, and in a civil way. I'm closing this case.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And, yes,, thank you very much for conducting this detailed investigation and presenting results here.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  22:08, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for checking the users and judging this in an appropriate manner. I will now leave Secondarywaltz and the other three suspected accounts alone (and so should they do so vice versa), but currently, IJBall has [| ignored your advice and continued to cause me trouble (and now along with two of his allies)]. Please check if you wish. HanSangYoon (talk) 01:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)