Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/August/22

2000s-rock-band-stub /

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

Currently has one stub in a rather ill-formed category dent hat is only borderline notable enough not to go to afd. No sign of any proposal. Consistent naming for the category would be, only - given that there are very few articles in and no other decades have been split off, this seems a poor subject for a split at the moment. Delete Grutness...wha?  02:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no perm-catting of bands by year or decade (which would mean what, exactly? formed in?  active only in?), so this doesn't even seem a very crisp or convenient way to split.  Delete.  Alai 02:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The purpose of stubs is to assist editors with certain expertise to identify articles that they may help expand. Bands formed in the last decade that are notable but the information is less readily available for researching because of their relative newness are of greater importance to guiding editors to. There is a cross-section of artists that are notable but takes a bit more effort to complete their bios than Google searching, and I personally (and I hope other editors) would like a stub-section to guide me to new and up-and-coming artists worthy of further research.  I propose renaming it to  to encouraging research on these new and noteworthy bands. Keep --In Defense of the Artist 15:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A noble cause, but unless there are currently 60+ articles for it, delete. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 15:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Vietnamese-American-bio-stub / redlinked

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

It is rare indeed for us to split bio-stubs by ethnicity, and for the most part controversial to do so - as well as being unnecessary and overly confusing, given the usual method of splitting is by nation then occuption (very few people have ethnicity as a major factor in their notability as opposed to what they actually do). In those instances where a person has two nationalities, fine - use two stub templates. In those where it is only ancestry, it's leaving the door open to unnecessary fractionated splitting. Delete. (note: if decision is to keep, it will need renaming to stub standards) Grutness...wha?  02:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. There is no reason why a stub may not have other stub(s) in addition to this one. In this case, ethnicity is very important and if an editor is looking to expand stubs about Vietnamese Americans, this is a very good tool to allow for that. Badagnani 02:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete, per all the prior arguments about tagging people by ethnicity, which isn't what they're notable for, and is a distinctly retrograde basis to be prominently pigeonholing people on. Use a list, or a talk-page template if you really want to keep track of people of that basis.  Alai 02:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I created this template because the Vietnam-bio-stub template uses the current flag of the communist government, a flag that most Vietnamese-Americans object to, and having that flag in bios of those people seem out of place. DHN 03:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Are they Vietnamese citizens? If not, the entire template would seem out of place (as would this "replacement").  Alai 04:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I doubt that they are Vietnamese citizens any longer. Most Vietnamese Americans have American citizenship, but there are some who are still Vietnamese citizens. DHN 05:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete' per nom & Alai, and remove the flag from the Vietnam-bio-stub template. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 04:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Vietnam's now a "disputed region"? Alai 04:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete the template per old precedent but keep the flag on the Vietnamese templates. The Vietnamese templates shouldn't be used on material relating to citizens of the U.S. anyway, as we don't sort by ethnicity but by citizenship. I hate Communism as much as the next man but the current regime in Hanoi is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of Vietnam. The Saigon government even officially surrendered to the former, so the legal situation is very clear. Valentinian T / C 05:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - "We don't sort by ethnicity" is illogical. The purpose of stubs is to assist editors with certain expertise to identify articles that they may help expand. Guiding those editors to the proper articles is of paramount importance, not some arbitrary and unhelpful idea of what "we don't do." If an editor has expertise on the Vietnamese in America, a stub should exist to do that. Yes, the Vietnamese in America are certainly notable for their ethnicity as well as for what they have done as individuals. The idea that most Americans have that one's ethnicity or heritage doesn't matter is ethnocentric and not typical of concepts of ethnic identity in other parts of the world. This dismissive attitude on behalf of the "delete page regulars" commenting here, in regard to what I have stated above is most disturbing. Badagnani 07:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of people come are the result of mixed marriages and in some cases the "nationality" of a deceased notability may be a matter of controversy. Danes and Norwegians argued for a long time about the nationality of Ludvig Holberg, or take Frederic Chopin: Polish or French, or what about Nicolaus Copernicus? A lot of similar disputes exist, e.g. some of the naming controversies we've experienced over material relating to Poles, Germans or Lithuanians (depending on your point of view). WP:WSS tries to keep stub sorting as free of controversy as possible, and consequently, we don't sort according to race, gender or ethnicity, only according to citizenship. It may be a clunky solution but it works. Some immigrants cut the ties to their former country the day they cross the border into their new homeland, other cling on to the culture of their former country for generations. How can we objectively determine if a Vietnamese-American primarily identifies himself as Vietnamese, American or both? Valentinian T / C 12:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment - many people who identify as Vietnamese are/were citizens of the former Republic of Vietnam and were never citizens of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (formed in 1976). If we sort by citizenship and not ethnicity, then I shall remove the Vietnam-people-stub template from articles dealing with Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam.  Many of them would be highly distressed to see a biography of them adorned with the flag of the communist government. For examples, see, etc. DHN 00:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.