Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2008/June/26

Lauenburg-geo-stub / Category:Lauenburg district geography stubs

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was rename per nom

The name of the modern district is Herzogtum Lauenburg; it was named after the former principality of Saxe-Lauenburg (also known as Lauenburg). The stub is for geographical places relating to the modern district, and as such should use the modern name (Template:HerzogtumLauenburg-geo-stub; Category:Herzogtum Lauenburg geography stubs). There are 143 articles in the category right now. Olessi (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this change really necessary? As best I can tell, though it is hard to be certain.  Standard practice for the English names of sub-national entities seems to be for article titles (and thus the corresponding categories) to ignore the references to types of political units such as Commonwealth and Hansestadt that appear in the names of such entities as Hansestadt Lübeck (which is just Lübeck) and the Commonwealth of Virginia (which is just Virgina.  On the German language wiki Herzogtum Lauenburg is a redirect to Herzogtum Sachsen-Lauenburg.  Frankly, without some evidence that it was nothing more than personal preference on your part, I'm leaning towards favoring reverting the page move you made back to Lauenburg (district). Caerwine Caer’s whines  23:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no common English name for this entity. WikiProject German districts says "As the districts have no English names, we should use their German names. The district Nordfriesland is placed under Nordfriesland and not under Northern Frisia. Exception: If the district bears at least partially the same name as a town, then use the English name of that town. Example: The district Hameln-Pyrmont is placed under Hamelin-Pyrmont." An archaic English name of the city is "Lauenburg on the Elbe", but that is rarely used. As far as I can tell, the district website always uses "Herzogtum Lauenburg" or the Kreis when discussing the modern entity. In contrast, the websites for Virginia and Lübeck use the shortened names as common usage. Olessi (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I scanned the websites of a few German newspapers (Kieler Nachrichten, Lübecker Nachrichten, Hamburger Abendblatt, Die Welt), and they overwhelmingly use "Kreis Herzogtum Lauenburg" and not "Kreis Lauenburg" to refer to the district. The English translation of the name would be "Duchy of Lauenburg District", but that is not actually used in English, and the aforementioned WikiProject only encourages translations for city names with widely accepted English names. The historical state was the Duchy of (Saxe)-Lauenburg, while the modern district is "Herzogtum Lauenburg". Olessi (talk) 15:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I found the reason for the added Herzogtum. Historically there was a Kries Lauenburg from 1845-1945 centered around what is now Lębork, Poland, so the added Herzogtum, while not needed today to disambiguate the two, no longer is.  I withdraw my objections, since I doubt that the Germans will simplify the name anytime soon. Caerwine Caer’s whines  17:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. The other district in question was de:Landkreis Lauenburg i. Pom., for those interested. Olessi (talk) 18:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that the German article's at Kreis Herzogtum Lauenburg, shouldn't the en: article be at Herzogtum Lauenburg district, and thus we, renaming this to ? Alai (talk) 11:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Practically all districts in German begin with Kreis/Landkreis, but that system is not used on the English WP; instead we only include "district" in the article title for disambiguation purposes and in the manner "Foo (district)". Compare, for instance Uckermark (region) & Uckermark (district) / Oberspreewald-Lausitz (no corresponding main article) / Kamenz (city) & Kamenz (district). The German phrase "Herzogtum Lauenburg" is probably not going to be used in the search box to find the Duchy of Saxe-Lauenburg on the English Wikipedia, so the district is fine at Herzogtum Lauenburg; a hatnote at the beginning of the article mentions the duchy. Olessi (talk) 13:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, that does seem to be the current practice. As you were, then.  Alai (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.