Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2009/January/22

Eberron-stub / Category:Eberron stubs

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

Recently depopulated through merges, no longer needed.  Pagra shtak  16:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems fair, so long as the depopulation wasn't controversial. I can't find any details of the depopulation on WikiProject talk pages, but if this is genuinely of no further use, then delete. Grutness...wha?  23:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: I depopulated the cat by merging the articles into World of Eberron, so the vast majority of the content was retained. -Drilnoth (talk) 03:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

NYCapitalDistrictStub

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete

I found just one article with this template Fort Nassau (North River) and covered that well enough. --Salix (talk): 18:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Long time since we've seen a stub that defies the naming conventions quite as comprehensively as this: sections run together without hyphens, incorrect use of abbreviation, capital S in stub. Not a bad assortment for just one template. Add to that that it appears to be being used as a geo-stub (the only items this was on were geo-stubs already correctly marked as such). Unproposed, with a redlink category and split by an ill-defined section of the state (which the article on the subject describes as "an imprecise regional definition") - a state which has its own accepted stub types (NewYork-stub and its subtypes). While I can see the possibility of splitting geo-stubs, possibly with a geo-stub for the city itself to reduce strain on the state category (which would be a reasonable proposal, given that is pretty large), the need for a separate stub type of this nature is questionable, to say the least. Appears to be connected to a brand new WikiProject - one whose creator may need to read the section on WP:STUB about why WikiProjects are better off with talk-page templates. Delete. Grutness...wha?  00:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, I don't think I've ever been treated so poorly before on Wikipedia. One of the most blatant WP:BITE violations that I think I've encountered personally. I say that because I've never made a stub template before; I didn't even know people cared enough to categorize stubs to this extent. Yes, you were correct in your assessment of me starting a new WikiProject, and since that adds to the project in general, I'd think another user would respect that: I'm bringing together other like-minded users to categorize, quantify, and improve upon articles that we all have interests in. Honestly, your assessment above should bring you shame - you're here to help others, not demean them and I'm nothing short of embarrassed by you. While I admit I've never looked at the criteria for a stub, I am putting forth my time and effort to start a WikiProject (no small endeavor, I assure you) and a stub seemed like a logical thing to include as a template offering in the project. Feel free to delete, but I believe that it can be useful since it includes the fact that it's an area in New York, and therefore a subset of WikiProject New York, which has its own stub template; this is just a more specific reason really. I hope you don't treat everyone like this. Mocking people and being sarcastic in a negative way surprises me, especially from an administrator. Do what you want - I'm now disheartened. You seem to expect only the most experienced stub writers to create them and if that were the Wikipedia way, well, there would be no Wikipedia. I also corrected all your spelling and grammar errors above; you're welcome. ~  ωαdεstεr 16 «talkstalk» 05:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You've been on Wikipedia since August 2006 - I don't really think you qualify under WP:BITE. If you hadn't made a stub template before, surely you had enough experience here and good sense to read up about them before making a template. I know that starting a WikiProject is no small enterprise - it's one that takes time, effort and dedication, but should also take a close observance of how it should be done. As I suggested above, please check out the section of WP:STUB that relates to WikiProjects - which I offered as help to you since it explains why having a stub template is not an ideal solution to the problems of organising articles which fall within the scope of a WikiProject. That is one reason why it is spelt out in Wikiproject - the framework template you would have used to start your WikiProject - that stub templates should be handled with care and that there are better alternatives. I would suggest several other places to look for information on the differences between stub templates and talk-page assessment templates, and a host of examples of the latter to show their usage within wikiprojects (WPBeatles is a good example). I'm sorry that you feel embarrassed by what I wrote, although I'm at a loss to see why - all I did was correctly describe the template and the usage to which it was being put, which I did accurately, as it is almost a copybook example of poor naming and of dubious scope. I also offered help by suggesting an alternative way of reducing the size of the category this is being split from. As to whom I expect to create stub templates, the answer is anyone - as long as they have had them checked to make sure there are no problems with them, and as long as the instructions are followed to make sure they're created properly. As to the spelling errors, that's what arthritis does for my typing ability, I'm afraid. The "grammatical errors" you mention I've restored; they were deliberate stylistic licence in informal writing. Grutness...wha?  23:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, Wadester, that's a lot of assumptions. No one is attacking you personally. G is evaluating the template at face value without assuming any intentions, feelings, or abilities on your part; while he may sound acerbic, his suggestions are essentially useful. There are several stub types approved for creation to diffuse, which will happen as soon as I'm done with Texas' 254 county stub templates. And if this is the worst you've been treated on WP, you obviously haven't been as downtrodden as most of the WikiGnomes on this project. Her Pegship  (tis herself) 11:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's really not a lot of assumptions. I'm saying that I was openly mocked for trying to help the project. The first half of the original statement made is all about rubbing into common knowledge the unintentional mistakes I made. Oops-I didn't mean them. It most definitely could have been worded more carefully. I really could care less if this stub exists or not; I just thought it was a useful addition to the WikiProject I'm working on. I appreciate critical comments (I really do - see my other contributions), but not in the manner presented. I don't take back what I said - I still feel disenfranchised by this user and I'm disappointed that my product has been essentially satirized by the original statement. I'm not concerned about WikiGnomes because I respect them - they do a lot of what I do to begin with, so they get little sympathy from me; I rarely (if ever?) get attacked for WikiGnome-like efforts (they are typically greatly - if not silently - appreciated). Maybe I just deal with overall nicer people than you do? Either way, this treatment is not typical of the Wikipedia way in my mind. I understand your disagreements, but based on your arguments, I very much disagree with your points. Probably time to agree to disagree and move on. ~  ωαdεstεr 16 «talkstalk» 07:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a huge amount of assumptions. You were not mocked at all. All I did was point out that this was one of the most pooorly-named stub templates which we've had here for a long time (which is a fact), tht it had major problems as far as its ucurrent usage was concerned (also a fact), and that its scope was ambiguous (also a fact). You say you rarely get attacked for WikiGnome efforts - perhaps you should return the compliment by not attacking me for making perfectly reasonable statements as regards the template. Note too that the comments were directed at the template, not at you - the only comment I made about you was a suggestion as to where to find the relevant guidelines for stub templates and wikiprojects. Perhaps it's about time you stopped having "little sympathy for WikiGnomes" and started treating them with a bit more respect. Grutness...wha?  20:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Step back and reread your initial comments from the view of somebody that has never read them before. I'll AGF that you didn't mean it the way I interpreted, but it can't be denied that much of that statement can be viewed as sarcastic and demeaning (even if unintentional). I'm aware of the rule of "don't take things personally" but to be honest, I've always viewed that as an easy way to hide from blame in situations where intentions are questioned and called out (like this); insulting my work in a sarcastic manner really is insulting me no matter what the Gods of Wikipedia say. Nobody's going to change my views on that. As I said before, do what you want with this; I really don't care that much about it. On a side note, the aforementioned red links should no longer be red links. ~  ωαdεstεr 16 «talkstalk» 21:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, lets cool down and think about this. I'm not here to pass blame or even do conflict resolution. You both got out of hand and then a third person intervened with preconcieved notions taking sides instead of pointing out both sides needed to cool off, it is never good for a third party to come in and be seen as "taking sides", that simply makes one party more defencive and creates a hostile environment for resolution of the conflict. First off, G, you could have opened with something a bit nicer than "Long time since we've seen a stub that defies the naming conventions quite as comprehensively as this", that is blatantly inflamatory and perhaps you had a bad day and normally are more tactful, that's what "good faith" is all about and I'm going to use my good faith to believe that about you. Yes, the individual things you mention right after that sentence are wrong and needing to be corrected, as W stated you ARE here to HELP not criticize or mock. If you are think it is ok to be here to mock and you dont think you have to help anyone with anything when you point out something is wrong then you really need to not point out what is wrong with other people's contributions. But as I said I believe you are not that type of person and simply worded things a bit too harsh. W did overreact and take offence (as we all are guilty of, myself almost every day). Which put you in defence mode. Tempers got hot. As for your respect comment- respect is a two way street and being an admin. or having been on wikipedia longer or any other reason one may think they demand respect in the world automatically, does not automatically demand respect from anyone on wikipedia, wikipedia is probably the purest form of democracy that has ever existed, man woman gay straight black white 16 yr old or 81 we all have an equal voice and able to put our opinions out there to be counted equally to anyone elses, there are no intermediary representatives, its truly "one person, one vote" or in this case "one opinion". Where else in history do you see that? If you want respect earn it. If you want my opinion on wikiproject capital district and your statements about its geography boundaries being inexact and things not going through the nomination process, I would like to remind you that nominating wikiprojects to be formed instead of just forming them is preferred BUT NOT mandatory and there is no reason that geographically exact boundaries must be made for a wikiproject that is based on geography of a region. Also, the stub template happened to be put only on geo stubs but that is coincidence and not due to a lack of stubs from other categories that deserve capital district labelling, including people, buildings, bridges, roads, historical events, battles, what have you. The capital district has been continously inhabited by europeans for 400 years, I think W and others can find plenty of stubs related to the CD that arent geostubs. That doesnt mean I agree the stub template needs to be created, not the point I'm making.Camelbinky (talk) 21:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * again, there was no intention to mock, and, re-reading the comments as suggested, I find no evidence of having done so. All I have done is pointed out that the stub type is one of the worst seen here in a long time, which is very much the case, and pointed out where the respective guidelines are. In response, Wadester accused me of WP:BITE, which appeared to me to be trying to hide the fact that - rather than a newbie to whom WP:BITE would apply, he has sizeable experience on Wikipedia. Why he should want to hide that, I do not know, but it degraded his response to me significantly. If he had argued to the points I raised, this would not have got out of hand, but instead he decided that the perfectly valid points I raised were some form of ad hominem attack, and decided to reply in kind. I still do not see why he should have done this rather than defend the template or make suggestions as to how it could be improved. My "respect comment" was a direct response to what definitely appeared to be a lack of respect to WikiGnomes in general on Wadester's part with his line "they get little sympathy from me", something which I found rather appalling. I see he's since removed it from his comments, and can only assume he's thought twice about a comment made, as you put it, in the heat of temper. I do respect Wadester's work on Wikipedia - I was shocked that he even considered my comments some form of attack on him, and still fail to understand how he could be embarrassed by them.
 * You do seem to greatly misunderstand many of my points about the stub type with your comment: If you want my opinion on wikiproject capital district and your statements about its geography boundaries being inexact and things not going through the nomination process, I would like to remind you that nominating wikiprojects to be formed instead of just forming them is preferred. I have no opinion whatsoever on the WikiProject, other than to say that if there are a group of editors who wish to work on articles about the Capital District, more strength to them. My comments on proposals are only related to the stub type, which is not connected to the wikiproject other than covering the same geographic region. Stub types do require geographically exact boundaries, and there have been many instances in the past of nutting out exactly how stub types should be split to accommodate this fact - as indeed there has been with New York State in the past. All this has taken place during the proposal process for stub types, and has nothing to do with the proposal process or lack of it for wikiprojects. Furthermore, putting the stub tag onto geo-stubs is not a coincidence - it is simply incorrect stubbing. No geographic article should be stubbed with a generic stub tag like this; geo-stub templates only should be used on geo-stubs. My points stand - this is an incorrectly formed stub template for an ambiguously scoped area. As such, it should not exist. If there is a WikiProject working on articles on this topic, they are far better off using a talk-page template as a primary means of categorising their articles, not a stub type. This is all explained at STUB, as I pointed out to Wadester in my initial nomination. Grutness...wha?  23:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Disclaimer: I am not a stub person. I note this discussion here, has partly to do with the definition of the wikiproject, which is sort of under discussion with an after-the-fact proposal put up by Wadester in response to my request (Proposal under discussion at WikiProject Council/Proposals).  It does seem to me to indicate that the borders of the wikiproject's scope should be settled, in particularly with regards to WikiProject Hudson Valley, which claims most but not all of the same territory.  Perhaps the borders discussion should be taken forward with the Hudson Valley people (some of them are now members of the new wikiproject and I would think it shouldn't be too difficult to get them to redraw their borders).  And drop the stub for now, to be revisited after borders get settled?
 * My comment still exists; I did not remove it. That comment clearly states I have no sympathy because in doing WikiGnome-like duties, I've never been trodden upon. Indeed even the most arduous tasks seem to be appreciated somehow. I also clearly stated that I claimed WP:BITE because I had never made a stub before (or WikiProject for that matter) and was new (and apparently clueless) to the process. ~  ωαdεstεr 16 «talkstalk» 06:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok...I ended up getting attacked by Grutness and he doesnt think anything was wrong. I will attempt ONE last time to get the point across. After this there is no need to rehash or bring it up again, if you choose to ignore it fine but I have no interest in hearing that you still refuse to understand wiki guidelines towards civility or good faith, I simply wish to stop it right here. While BITE does talk about "newbie" users it is to be used as a guideline for all users towards all users regardless of seniority. To quote from WP:BITE- (Quote) The principle "Ignorantia juris non excusat" (Latin for: "ignorance of the law does not excuse") is incompatible with the guidelines of not biting and assuming good faith. If you prosecute and judge people because they are ignorant of our policies and guidelines, you are in fact violating our policies and guidelines! (end quote) You clearly judged and prosecuted W for being ignorant. W did the right thing when he confronted you, though as I stated he did overreact a bit and did the wrong thing in dwelling on it after you refused to acknowledge your mistake, I most likely am guilty of the same thing by simply responding to you after you refused to listen to my suggestions on diffusing this issue. I say he did the right thing and the wrong thing for as in WP:BITE step 5 of what to do if you feel biten is to "Choose to point out in a reasoned manner any offense taken, and learn to recognize when the message cannot be received. The recipient may be unable or unwilling to accept fault, and it may be better to move on to other things than to dwell on the "bite". " Obviously you were unable or unwilling to find fault, which is why I stated that if you still choose not acknowledge (it doesnt have to be publicly, just in your head is fine) your responsibility in this then I dont wish to continue and I will drop it. This was, whether you see it or not, clearly from the begining to end what is written about in WP:BITE. While he is not new to wikipedia, he is new to this particular aspect and meant well, he did not do anything out of vandalism or laziness or sloppiness. As I stated, and you didnt respond about- YOU are here to HELP if you dont think thats your job then perhaps you should rethink being an admin., and when you claim in your response that you didnt mock even after I singled out your first sentence as mocking..I just cant understand. Your claim is that "its true therefore not mocking" is not only against common human decency of interaction in the real world worst of all it goes against good faith, the tenant of good faith is the cornerstone of a good working environment and good-will among all wikipedians new and old, if any wikipedia guideline is overaching all others it is the tenant of good faith. Both W and G may want to read No angry mastodons, which is an essay and therefore not a guideline or hardfast rule, but still should be respected. And if anyone wants to end this in a humorous note read Newcomers are delicious, so go ahead and bite them and Please be a giant dick, so we can ban you, both are essays meant as humor NOT as guidelines and are in fact the OPPOSITE of what you should do.Camelbinky (talk) 08:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - There are thousands of stub templates on obscure topics, and I don't see how this is any different. There's certainly a broad enough scope, and all issues with the template seem to have been addressed. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  05:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Juliancolton hit the nail on the head ~ <b style="font-size:small;"> ωαdεstεr 16 </b>«talkstalk» 06:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete For balance on Juliancotton's vote. I think JulianCotton should support the definition of stubs or whatever for the new/proposed WikiProject New York Capital District or WikiProject Capital District by contributing to redefining boundaries so that WikiProject Hudson Valley does not overlap unnecessarily. doncram (talk) 07:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep To unbalance Doncram's balancing Juliancolton's vote. And I still oppose changing the wikiproject name when no one from any other place that claims the Capital District name has complainedCamelbinky (talk) 08:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Doncram, you seem to think the name is JulianCotton when indeed there's a little more colton and a little less cotton. ~ <b style="font-size:small;"> ωαdεstεr 16 </b>«talkstalk» 07:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh! Oops, sorry about that, Juliancolton. Well, the other issues remain.  By the way, Wadester16, does your using NY in the proposed stub name, for clarity's sake here, does it not suggest that u should also revise, in the WikiProject proposal, that the name for the wikiproject should carry New York name also?  You acknowledged somewhere that adding New York would be okay by you, but then you have not revised your proposal to note that would be acceptable.  It would be nice to make progress somewhere in these multiple discussions. :) doncram (talk) 07:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps discussions over the wikiproject name should be addressed elsewhere, as well as personal issues about who said what to whom and whose feelings/pride were hurt. Meanwhile, please delete the NYCapitalDistrictStub from stub space, await the creation of geographically definite sub-stubs (like I said, once I finish with Texas), and suggest the wikiproject create a talk-page template to corral articles it deems pertinent. Cheers, Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 17:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong delete Nothing against creator, but I really don't see how this stub template is helpful. If we need to split the state into regions, couldn't we just have regional categories with upmerged county-level stubs?  I can see how it would be quite useful if there were no precedent for splitting states into regions, and (seeing that the creator apparently was unaware of the standard stub proposal process) I can't imagine that there's anything but good faith on the part of the creator, but given that we have a rather methodical system (i.e. what Pegship is working on for Texas), I also can't imagine how this is superior to such a system being applied here.  I make this a "strong delete" simply because, if kept, I think it would put New York rather out of sync with other states that have been subdivided, including Texas.  Nyttend (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * See, this is how one critically, fairly, and respectfully critiques the work of another person; thank you. In response, regions are very useful because, while I don't live in Albany County, I spend much time there. The 200+ year old border of counties puts me in one place, but economically and socially speaking, I spend much time crossing these borders. At the same time, all those border crossing are irrelevant when you consider I stayed within the Region the whole time. There are only nine regions in New York. Sen Schumer has a good graphic on his webpage, which I have uploaded and show here. Maybe we could create stubs for all nine? ~ <b style="font-size:small;"> ωαdεstεr 16 </b>«talkstalk» 21:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In the big picture of stub structure, the common (and most efficient) practice with country geography stubs is to create templates for each sub-national entity (in this case, counties). Then regional categories are created without template, and the county templates are upmerged to the regional category until each county sub-type is used on a sufficient number of articles to get a county category of its own. This was approved back in October, but no one has acted on it yet (as there is a huge backlog of stub work to be done). See, this is how one critically, fairly, and respectfully proposes templates that will be used across WP among editors in many different projects and interests. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 21:56, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I recently noticed the addition to an article the geo-stub of Albany County. As I work on many many many Albany and CD articles and have never seen a county level stub, are there now, or going to be soon, county level stubs for each county? If so I suggest leaving out Bronx, New York, Queens, Kings, and Richmond counties as they are coterminous with the five boroughs of the City and I do believe the city already has its own stub. Oh, and of course I have to ask- First, if these stubs ARE new where were they proposed and discussed before being made so I know where in the future to propose new stubs and comment on stubs? I assume that they werent just made first before going through the proper proposal, I would have liked to have commented on them, especially if ones were already made for the boroughs, as I think one for the City is enough instead of individual ones for the boroughs/counties. And second- Pegship mentioned once there are a sufficient number of county articles in county categories then a regional category without a template is made to include the county ones (if I understood her right), in which case can it be explained where to build this regional category for the CD to include the county stub template. I cant speak for Wadester but I can live with deleting the CD template IF and ONLY if this regional category is created to coral all the county stub templates.Camelbinky (talk) 05:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have found the New York City stub template along with stub templates for New York City transportation and New York City building/structure, so most definitely I hope if we are going to a county based geo-stub that it is kept in mind the 5 counties in NYC dont need them. Sometimes people from other states who are working on NY related articles dont always get that, as it seems to be rare in other states for a city to take up five ENTIRE counties, though there are cities that cross county borders (KC, Missouri goes into 6 I believe, but partially, not fully).Camelbinky (talk) 06:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally think regional stubs are more useful than county stubs, especially if you defined them definitely, like in the map I included above. Maybe this is just a New York thing; Camelbinky's NYC reference is a good point: you shouldn't reference any of the counties in NYC in stubs. People would laugh at you. And if that's the case, why not do that for the whole state? 9 regional stubs rather than 62 county stubs. ~ <b style="font-size:small;"> ωαdεstεr 16 </b>«talkstalk» 15:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As reported earlier, these were indeed approved back in October. I'm creating templates for all New York counties (in between slogging away at ); they will all be upmerged to until such time as someone proposes a regional parent category at WSS/P. The 5 counties included in NYC have their own templates upmerged to both  and . This is not a perfect solution, because  is for all things NYC, not just geography. If we had a, the county templates would be upmerged there. Now as to the regional issue - no one has proposed that on WSS/P. Lastly, the NYC templates are named for the counties because those are their government designations, and in order to be objective, we tend to name templates and categories by their legal definitions, not by local usage. (P.S. How do you know I'm not from New York, or verily, NYC itself? And why would people laughing at me make any difference?) Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)  17:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that sounded much harsher than what was intended; I was trying to be humorous, not degrading. I meant you more so in the plural you of all Wikipedians and Wikipedia in general, not you specifically. And I meant laugh more in the lines of "chuckle chuckle, this is so specific; somebody must have spent a lot of time creating all this". I didn't realize you were doing the counties in NY. I never would have expected that to be. B/c NYC works so well regionally, I just personally think the whole state works well regionally. I mean Wikipedia is hard pressed to find some dedicated user in Hamilton County, New York that is going to be writing non-stop on articles relating to that county, know what I mean? I'm going to step out of this discussion now; my vote still stands support. ~ <b style="font-size:small;"> ωαdεstεr 16 </b>«talkstalk» 18:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Pegship you have verified with your own statement that you most definitely are NOT from NYC and I doubt you are from New York. The statement I am referring to is- "Lastly, the NYC templates are named for the counties because those are their government designations, and in order to be objective, we tend to name templates and categories by their legal definitions, not by local usage." The reason this statement shows you are not a native of NYC or probably the state is that the counties of NYC are NOT governmental designations, there are NO county governments for those 5 counties, ALL state laws and constitutional requirements treat the city of New York's government as the government of authority for doing anything required by a county! Please read up on the articles on each county and on NYC and on the state. Plus as both Wadester and I have commented- the CD template is NOT A GEO-STUB! It is intended for ALL types of stubs in the CD. Until this CD template discussion is decided one way or the other PLEASE refrain from removing stub-templates on CD articles and replacing them with your county ones. The CD template is still valid until this discussion is ended in consensus. It is bad faith and against wikipedia guidelines to treat it as not valid while going through deletion request. I will not revert the ones you have done so far, but any that are done after today will be reverted to whatever stub template it had prior. Being from somewhere other than NY does not disqualify you from working on articles or templates in the state, but if you do not understand the municipal structure of New York perhaps you should let people who do know more latitude. Good luck when you try to do county based templates for New England! Seven counties in Massachussetts alone do not have governments of anytype and are only geographical designations, even the census bureau, which normally uses county boundaries in statistics for MSA's, use town and city boundaries instead because they dont recognize New England counties as legitimate government designations because those states do not either. The fabric of this nation is very very different when it comes to municipalities. Please remember that all consensus "rules" or "guidelines" on wikipedia come with the disclaimer roughly stating- this is commonly accepted guideline, of course there are exceptions and it should be used with common sense. This is a time when common sense instead of strict rules should be used. Oh, and I have never seen a Bronx, or Kings, Queens, or anything county stub anywhere, only the NYC stub template. Before you go and start changing those stub templates to the county ones, I suggest you first ask for discussion and consensus at wikiproject NYC, they are very organized and tend to be one of the strongest and most vocal wikiprojects in wikipedia, I personally wouldnt want to piss off that group.Camelbinky (talk) 22:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I have not removed NYCapitalDistrictStub from any article, nor have I made any comments or distinctions about it. I have not implied that it's a geo-stub. I have not changed any to to any other stub type; if you see new articles in  it's because I changed them from NewYork-geo-stub or NewYork-stub to FooCountyNY-geo-stub (as I just explained, I upmerged the NYC "county" templates to ). I have changed NewYork-geo-stub to FooCountyNY-geo-stub on a few dozen articles, per the discussion I cited (twice) previously. This is all according to the discussion that took place 3 months ago at WSS/P. Now, if you want the NYC template names changed, I suggest you (a) propose a  at WSS/P and (b) a rename of the templates here, to be upmerged to that category. And it is not any of your business guessing at my place of origin based on your opinion of my edits. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)  22:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, you completly lost me on all that! I'm saying there is a NYC stub template, and one on transportation, and on buildings/structures that are used on NYC stub articles, I have never seen any with a county stub template, so please stop with the whole "upmerged" stuff. I do request that you bring any county templates for the five NYC boroughs to a discussion before they are created as I do not believe a consensus will be found in favor of creating them. Please understand THOSE FIVE COUNTIES ARE NOT COUNTIES. To prove my point go to Bronx Community Board 1 it has NYC-stub at on it, not any for The Bronx. Under your point of view it should have The Bronx stub template on it instead of the NYC one. You dont seem to be understanding that or just not believing me. You either didnt read all I wrote or dismissed it because your response had absolutely nothing with what I was trying to inform you about.Camelbinky (talk) 22:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't stop with the "whole upmerged stuff" because it's central to the discussion of . I did read all your comment, understood it completely, and am really, REALLY annoyed at being told over and over that I don't "get it". I do "get it", I just don't do it the way you want me to. It takes a lot to make me cry over something as trivial as WP editing and misunderstood stub sorting, but this takes the cake. Now see Stub types for deletion/Log/2009/January/27 and for crying out loud quit hammering at me. Over and out. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself) 23:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I dont see what the January 27 link has to do with this. Please explain to me why there is a NYC stub template that is put on NYC stubs instead of using the county ones you claim should be used. Do you think the NYC stub template should be deleted then? I am not talking about upmerged CATEGORIES of templates, I am talking about stub templates, those things at the bottom of the article that say "This is an article about a stub in New York City, you can help expand it" blah blah blah under your point of view, if I correctly understand you is that it should say "The Bronx" instead of NYC. You have not addressed that very fundamental issue and that could be why you think I am "hammering at" you. I only ask you address issues that I bring up so I can fully understand your point of view. It makes me want to cry as well when I ask for clarification or ask a question or bring up a point and the other person ignores them and talks about something completely different. I would like to know about your point of view on the NYC stub and if it should go away in favor of ones for the individual counties and why you believe the counties should be used if you think that way. I have brought this issue to the wikiprojects NY and NYC, you may bring your explanation to those discussion pages if you wish so you can have your say and defend your point of view. I just want clarification and explanation, who knows maybe I will agree with you, but without all the facts that isnt possible.Camelbinky (talk) 23:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The Jan 27 link proposes a rename of the (sorry) upmerged stub types already created, which addresses stated concerns over my "ignorance" of "proper" sub-state entity names. The would be an additional category, not a replacement, to which those county template would be upmerged. Replacing  has never been a question, which is why its deletion has not been brought up. Your statement "I am not talking about upmerged CATEGORIES of templates," [there's no such thing as an upmerged CATEGORY], "I am talking about stub templates, those things at the bottom of the article that say "This is an article about a stub in New York City, you can help expand it" blah blah blah" [duh!! is that what we were talking about?!] "under your point of view, if I correctly understand you is that it should say "The Bronx" instead of NYC." " [nope, you don't understand me, it has nothing to do with anyone's POV and I don't know how to explain it more clearly] illustrates a number of misconceptions that I have already addressed. If you don't understand upmerging, which is a time-saving and useful practice, please see the WP glossary. Her Pegship <small style="color:green;"> (tis herself)  23:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ARGH! ok, here is a hypothetical and I hope that if you answer this it answers my doubts- I have an article that is a stub, it is in Kings County (which is the Brooklyn borough in New York City), what stub template do I use? Do I put a stub template that says its a Kings County stub or do I put a NYC stub template? Currently people use the NYC stub template. Your opinion on what stub template should be used has been the question all along, I dont know why I dont seem to be understanding your answer. Just please make it a simple answer so I am not confused, for now I must simply assume I am the one not understanding you and I should have "good faith" that you are truly answering my question. Just a simple answer of "it should be the Kings county stub template" or "it should be the NYC stub template" will be good and then we can later get into why one or the other. Oh, and I must apologize for assuming it was you changing stub templates on articles I work on, the user name was "pegship", and with yours being "her pegship" you can see how I got confused. I assume you two are different people with just similiar names. Oh, and since you are proposing changing the names of the five NYC county templates to their borough names you should know that as a borough the name of "Bronx County" is "the Bronx", lower-case t. Please see the Bronx for further clarification.Camelbinky (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In the language of the people, "oy." OK:
 * I have an article that is a stub, it is in Kings County (which is the Brooklyn borough in New York City), what stub template do I use? You use KingsCountyNY-geo-stub, which for the present will change the stub text to read "This article about a location in Kings County, New York is a stub", but the article lands in and . This is the definition of an upmerged template. Once KingsCountyNY-geo-stub is used on 30+ articles (since there's an NYC project), a new category,, will be formed and the articles will be sorted into that. (If the change on Jan 27 is approved it will be TheBronx-geo-stub and . I'll change that accordingly in the nomination.)
 * the user name was "pegship", and with yours being "her pegship" you can see how I got confused. I assume you two are different people with just similiar names. Actually, they are both me; I changed my signature is all.
 * as a borough the name of "Bronx County" is "the Bronx", lower-case t. Yes, but in a stub template and category, as at the beginning of a sentence, the word "The" should be capitalized.
 * Any help? Pegship (talk) 04:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, first off on the advice of Doncram I apologize to Pegship if there has been any bad feelings about this, but I must point out it is ironic seeing as how when I defended Wadester about Grutness's impoliteness Pegship defended Grutness saying there was none, so now I got accused of doing the same thing to Pegship. Kharma and irony. Technically not irony, the definition of irony is not what most people think. Anyways.
 * Thank you Pegship for finally saying what I wanted said clearly. I understood everything about the categories and upmerging, despite being accused basically of stupidity. I wanted it said out clearly by you, and not me, that the county Kings in this case, should be used instead of the NYC stub template. BECAUSE as I have told you OVER AND OVER, the stub template being used on just about every stub in the NYC wikiproject is the NYC stub template created by the wikiproject, supported by the wikiproject, and promoted by the wikiproject. As I just wrote to Doncram stub templates relating to a topic in which there is a wikiproject should be under the direction and discussion of the wikiproject members and not a "stub expert" who may not understand the differences and divisions within a wikiproject, esp. one divided on geography and politics. This was evident in two very minor but noticeable mistakes made- 1- making the counties of NYC stubs, and 2- the misnaming of the Bronx. Despite what Grutness says the Bronx is not a "common" name, it is the OFFICIAL name. You say the boroughs should be used due to political divisions are used. Other than a Borough president and his staff there hasnt been a borough government or any borough used as a political entity since the US Supreme Court declared the Board of Estimate to be unconstitutional (1970's I believe?), the Borough president is pretty much like a lobbyist/chamber of commerce/promoter/cheerleader, no official duties, no executive/legislative duties. Fire districts, police districts, school districts, zip codes, ambulance districts, water districts, and NYC council districts all cross over borough lines constantly. Borough boundaries arent used or considered in drawing anything in the NYC, this can cause problems with labeling stubs of for example- a NYC councilman (sometimes called alderman) whose district includes area in both Manhattan and the Bronx. A stub on a former mayor of NYC. Their is and has been for a long time an appropriate stub template for the NYC that is being used. Why would you want to duplicate it with five others? The state of NY treats the city of New York as one county, why cant you is my new question.Camelbinky (talk) 15:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the NYC-stub was approved and created by the Stub Sorting project and is used by editors from all over WP, including your project. I was only addressing the technical aspects of template use & creation and corrected myself when you made it clear the names were inappropriate. If it's more acceptable to The WikiProject, certainly we could just create a NewYorkCity-geo-stub and and skip the boroughs. As for why we would want 5 additional templates,  is huge (over 900 articles) and needs to be broken down into manageable sub-categories, thus the county templates. Smaller stub categories are more attractive to stub expander types, as easier to navigate and tackle. ( is also pretty big at 600+ articles.) In addition, as you may know, people from various parts of NYC are as alien to each other as we would be to (putative) Martians, and it's possible someone might want to "adopt" the Manhattan stubs (perhaps for a...Manhattan Project?!). And I wasn't implying you're stupid; quite the contrary, I was frustrated that someone with obvious intelligence was not understanding my explanations. Pax, Pegship (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Now THAT was a great explanation as to why we should have five instead of one stubs and one that makes a good amount of sense! Thank you! For the record, it was not you (Pegship) who basically called me stupid, that was someone on my talk page, trying to defend you honorable but in actuality just insulting me, it is not my place to say their name, that is their decision. I have also been accused of using my opinions in this argument as facts, if I state something as a fact, IT IS A FACT. The example used in my talk page by that person was the Bronx as "the Bronx" versus "Bronx County" and as I stated it is Bronx County but as a borough the official name is "the Bronx", it is not my opinion it is fact, and one that is even mentioned in the Bronx article if it had been read completely. If something is my opinion, I will say so, if it is fact I will state it as fact. I dont know what other facts that person or anyone else may have thought was my opinion, but please look in wikipedia articles and other sources if anything that I put forth as a fact looks dubious first before assuming it is my opinion and not truly a fact. Pegship, I now agree with you that making stubs according to counties can be useful as it makes a smaller category of articles and smaller lists on the category pages. My only problem is that (unless I am wrong) it seems the policy is going to be to do ALL states by counties (or their equivalent by a different name, Alaska doesnt have counties FACT not opinion). Is this correct? If so has any decision or discussion been done about Virginia which has independent cities, some of which are quite small in both pop. and geography but are NOT within counties, do they get treated as counties for stubs of their own? (Similarly St Louis in Missouri is not a part of any county even though St Louis County surrounds it FACT not opinion) and 2- what about places within cities that cross partly into multiple counties? As stated before (and not my opinion, it is FACT) KC, Missouri goes into many counties and to have stubs based on counties would cause stub articles on places within that city to be categorized by the county in which they are in, and not in KC and since KC does not take up all the area in each county (like NYC does) it doesnt seem possibly to put the stubs into a higher category as that would pull in the articles in the individual counties that are outside of KC as well. I know all of this is irrelevant to the CD deletion argument (another complaint by your defender on my talk page) but might as well do this here instead going back and forth on our talk pages, I personally hate having to read my responses on one page and someone else's on another page (now THAT is an OPINION).Camelbinky (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I would rather deal with each state as it comes up. When and  need splitting I'm sure someone will come up with a good solution. As an aside, the split is generally by sub-state entity, so if a state doesn't have counties, or if the entities are called something else (parishes, for example), that nomenclature would probably be used. Pegship (talk) 17:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Buddy film
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 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was deleted

The article is NPOV innuendo (male friendship as a way of pushing women out?). It should be clearly labelled as a feminist film theory concept and probably merged into the longer articles on feminist theory.
 * Um... there doesn't seem to be a template with this name. If you're referring to the article, which you seemt o be, then you want WP:AFD, not here. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  23:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.