Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 13

Picture help
Hello again teahouse, you have been ever so helpful to me in the past, now I ask another question. How do I change my picture for my userpage? I have tried what the help tells me to do but it well... wasn't that helpful. This is the picture I wanted to use is here -> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lunashy_avatar.jpg#file I just can't find the code it talks about. (Lunashy (talk) 06:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lunashy, I can't follow those instructions either but I think I have a solution for you. Edit your user page and towards the top you'll find   - change this to   and save it.  That should do it for you. NtheP (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Nthep, I knew I had to do something like that and I tried all sorts of names where the File:lunashy text was, this is the help page that I was talking about but well, it didn't provide to much help for if you already had the image uploaded. Thanks for your help(Lunashy (talk) 13:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC))
 * That was the page that I couldn't fathom either - mostly because I can't find this button on commons that says "Use this file", so I just played around till I got a version that worked :-) NtheP (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that was my problem, I couldn't find a "use this file" button, is there someone we could show/report this too so we can get it fixed? (Lunashy (talk) 03:11, 1 May 2012 (UTC))
 * The "use this file" link is in the middle of the gray bar above the image and below the title on the image page. At least it is for me :) heather walls (talk) 03:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I just checked it again and well.. now it is there, which is odd, because when I first checked there was nothing like it there before. I'm glad its there now though :) (Lunashy (talk) 04:45, 1 May 2012 (UTC))
 * Not there for me - wonder if it's a skin thing? Although my commons account is set to Vector which is the default, so I'm surprised it isn't there. NtheP (talk) 08:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It won't appear the same if you're logged in (thin bar up top) or logged out/unregistered (larger icons on right). benzband  ( talk ) 12:00, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Worked it out, I was looking at commons via a PC running IE8 but no java enabled so StockPhoto which is the gadget that displays the buttons wasn't working. NtheP (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Make a redirect?
It bugged me that all the kids' books in the Henry Huggins series had an article except for Henry and the Clubhouse, so I made one. But if you type the name in incorrectly, as "Henry and the Club House" (two words for Clubhouse), it doesn't show up. I believe the way to fix this is a redirect page. Would some kind person make one for me, as I read the help:page on it and got lost again? Thanks so much. Tlqk56 (talk) 17:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. Gimme a sec. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 17:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, done. Redirects are pretty simple; all you need is for the very first line of the article you're redirecting from (in this case, Henry and the Club House) to contain:  ; in this case, you would replace "name of target page" with "Henry and the Clubhouse".  You can go here to see what it looks like when you're typing it in. Hope this helps! Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 17:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. So in essence you create the wrong page and leave the message to redirect to the correct one. Is that right? I appreciate the help. Tlqk56 (talk) 17:32, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's correct. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 17:43, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's as good a way as any to look at it. Henry & the Clubhouse would be another valid version.  Spelling isn't the only reason for redirects though.  It could be a alternative or lesser know title e.g. The Town Of Titipu is a redirect to The Mikado, or a name or phrase associated with a topic e.g. Roman Bellic, a character in Grand Theft Auto 4 is a redirect to List of Grand Theft Auto IV characters because the character doesn't merit an article of it's own but has a section in a bigger article. NtheP (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks to both of you. Tlqk56 (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It's also worth considering categorising the image by adding template(s) from R template index. -- Trevj (talk) 10:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if I have mended the issues with my article
Hi I am a newbie and wrote an article in 2011 on the record label 'Future Legend Records'. My inexperience led me to multiple faults in the article which I have attempted to address. How do I know if I have done this successfully? Should I now remove some of the issue tags and see if anyone puts them back? It seems rather rude to do that especially since everyone seems to be better than me on here and know what they are doing! But at the same time if some of the faults have been corrected I should remove the tags to show that the article has been improved. Thoughts? AubreySimpson (talk) 17:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, Aubrey. I'm new, too, but I have learned that it's OK to remove those tags if you're sure you fixed the problem. If you're not sure, it's always nice to get someone else to check, but it's not necessary. You can always leave a message on the talk page about why you removed them, and if someone disagrees they can contact you or put them up again. Tlqk56 (talk) 20:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. A note on the talkpage is good because it indicates good faith.--Charles (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a nice article. Our coverage of labels is not as good as I would like, because they are seen as stand-alone entities and many are not important in their own right but for the part they play in the web of the music industry.  I have made a few tweaks to the article and removed two of the three tags.  The other should go in a few days or a aweek, unless it can be stood up. Rich Farmbrough, 00:20, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

When sources disagree?
How should I handle it when sources disagree on a point of fact? For instance, Doris Gates is reported most places to have died in Carmel, CA, but according to the Social Security Death Index and California Death Index, she died in Monterey. Should I go with Monterey as it's more official? Should I make a note giving the other choice? (And would it be a note or a footnote?) I have the same type problem with the years she worked at the Fresno library, some say 1930-1940, but one says 1931. Thanks. Tlqk56 (talk) 17:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * add a note add that sources differ for these two statements and cite both sources for each. Neither event and any dispute about the veracity of either seems earth shattering to me so I don't really see a problem.  You can always look for a third source e.g. an obituary to see what that says. NtheP (talk) 20:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree it's not a big deal, but I've noticed how often the Wikipedia entry shows up on other sites, and I don't want to perpetuate something that's not true. (Unfortunately I can't find an obit. It's strange.) I'll use a note, then. Thanks.Tlqk56 (talk) 20:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Two Kinds (short story) article layout edit
I'm very new to Wikipedia editing and I would like to know how one makes an article page layout acceptable for Wikipedia standards? I am currently interested in editing the Two Kinds (short story written by Amy Tan) page. The page is very short and straight forward yet the layout seems a bit bland. How may I be able to fix this?NJIT HUMaec22 (talk) 05:45, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello NJIT HUMaec22. I would start by looking at articles on similar books to see how they are usually done. On the article talk pages there should be a quality rating given by the Wikiproject(s) to which the page belongs which may give some idea of which are considered well written. Not my subject area but I hope this helps.--Charles (talk) 08:51, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi. I'm a newbie, too. I use this page to help me improve the pages I find, it has good ideas on where to start: Build a Better Article  Also, if you see something you like on another page you can click the EDIT option and see how they did it. (Unless they used some shortcut that hides some of the code.) In the case of this article, I'd start by adding Wikilinks, and paragraphs to the plot summary. Then you might consider a section on how the story fits into the others in the book, if that relates. (It's been years since I read it.) Checking out how other stories in the books are handled might help, too. Once you know specifically what you need help with, come here and someone will tell you exactly how to do it. Good luck.Tlqk56 (talk) 14:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, My article was declined and i am not sure why. :(
tHANK you for your feedback, it was very helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flint J (Singer) (talk • contribs) 14:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hiya, I was wondering if you could help. My article was declined and i am not sure why. I would love to be able to edit where need it so it can be accepted. Flint J (Singer)Flint J (Singer) (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, welcome to the Teahouse. Biographies need to establish the notability of their subjects. For musicians there are a special set of guidelines at WP:MUSICBIO and meeting any of these are pretty good indicators that the subject is notable.  However as well as being notable there have to be reliable sources to back that notability up.  Reliable sources are things  such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries.  Looking at your draft article it doesn't appear to meet any of the notability guidelines and the only references are to YouTube which isn't considered a reliable source.  The other thing is your user name which is the same as the subject of your article.  This suggests that you might have a Conflict of interest or even be the subject.  A conflict of interest doesn't bar you from editing any article but need to be careful about editing and ensure that you remain neutral about the subject. If you are Flint J then you really shouldn't be editing an autobiography.  If you aren't Flint J then you might want to think about changing your username. NtheP (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

IP mix up
Sometimes when I log off my Wikipedia account a "You have new message/s" box appears and when I click on it, it takes me to an IP adress's talk page and there is alaways a message from Cluebot saying that I've vandalised something. The IP adress that own the talk page in not my own. Can anyone look into this? Androzaniamy (talk) 10:47, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Androzaniamy, and welcome to the Teahouse! It looks like you have an dynamic IP address, which means your internet service provider (ISP) assigns you a different IP address every time you log on the internet. Don't worry, these vandalism warning messages usually don't affect you. If an IP address does get blocked, then you can get blocked too. If that does happen, you can request an IP block exemption, which means you can edit on a registered account without worrying about getting blocked. Hope this helps! --   Luke      (Talk)   12:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


 * So does the ISP change my IP address for security reasons? Androzaniamy (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh and by the way, do you know any checkusers I can ask to do the IP block exemption for me? Androzaniamy (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, IP block exemptions are only used for people who can't edit, even while logged into their accounts, because of a block on their IP address. Since you seem to be able to edit while logged in, an IP block exemption isn't applicable for you (and wouldn't be useful to you either; it doesn't stop the messages showing up on your IP address).  You can read this for more info about IP block exemptions. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 18:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the ISP just has a limited number of IP addresses to use, so it reallocates them as users log off. Nobody Ent 22:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a good approximation to the truth, but there is a little more to it than that. Rich Farmbrough, 03:12, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

Kamal Ataturk
Hi, I am doing some research on Kamal Ataturk for ANZAC DAY. I have managed to confirm from reputable sources his presence at Gallipoli on the 25th of April 1915. I have not though confirmed as yet on what date the Armenian soldiers fighting on the Turkish side were withdrawn from the Gallipoli front and whether Ataturk knew of it. Can anyone help please.Christos Evangeli (talk) 01:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Christos, hi and thanks for stopping by the Teahouse. I'm not sure anyone here can answer this question for you but if you ask the same question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history, I'm sure you'll get an answer - that is the talk page for the project that specialises in military history so there are bound to be people there who can help you. NtheP (talk) 10:01, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:Reference desk is also a great resource for facts. Rich Farmbrough, 02:15, 3 May 2012 (UTC).

Un-tag?
How many references does it take to get "This article does not cite any references or sources..." tag to go away? Is there some way to invoke the TagBot to re-evaluate? ~Eric F 98.26.28.41 (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2012 (UTC) -- Re: Willy_Stöwer ~E 01:51, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey Eric! Just be bold and remove it when you believe the article is well cited :) I removed it and moved the references up (they were at the bottom of the article). Hope you didn't mind me taking care of it. Sarah (talk) 02:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and p.s. there isn't a bot that takes those tags down...or I don't know of one if there is! Sarah (talk) 02:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks! ~E 98.26.28.41 (talk) 02:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, some of the WP:AWB based bots will remove some tags if they are visiting the page anyway, and in that example they would replace "Unreferenced" with "Refimprove" (since a bot can see that there are some references and "Unref" is no longer relevant). "Uncategorized" and "Orphan" can also be removed automatically.  Rich Farmbrough, 04:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC).

Guestbooks/autographs?
I have noticed some people have "autograph books" or "guest books" that people can sign, I wanted to know, can anyone have one or are they only for certain users? Lunashy Friendship letters.  00:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Lunashy! You can totally have one. Let us know if you need any help. :) heather walls (talk) 00:31, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Lunashy, and welcome to the Teahouse! All you have to do is to create a subpage for your guestbook. For example, User:Lunashy/guestbook. Than just add a link to your main user page and people can sign it. Hope this helps! --   Luke      (Talk)   00:33, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, I have set it up and added a little personality to it, I would love it if you wanted to check it out and see if I have it right, you can find it by clicking 'write a friendship letter' which will be in my signature. ( Lunashy Friendship letters. write a friendship letter 02:41, 4 May 2012 (UTC))

IP Traces visable For Non Members but hidden for members
I remember making an edit successfully on a page before I signed up to the site. On saving I was told my IP Address would be visable on edits & if I join I can hide my ip. So - how can I find edits by me showing my ip. Because my ip was recorded before I signed up logically it follows that edits I made after signing up have the same ip & therefore edits made before becoming a member should be connected to my account history. Yes/No? makes sense to me... Oh & thanks for inviting me here 79.97.95.194 (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello there. When you have an account it can be used from pretty much any IP address and is quite separate from any previous IP edits. Only a small number of admins with checkuser authority can see which IPs you are using and that is only to investigate possible sockpuppetry. I hope this helps.--Charles (talk) 21:50, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi (whoever you are)! Edits you make before you make an account are not connected to your new account and there is currently no way to do that. (I just asked Jorm) Log in now so you can make a record! heather walls (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Downloading AWB
Downloading AWB is not working for me. I need help, please.


 * I was granted permission to use AWB on April 12, 2012, by Graeme Bartlett (talk)

I am attempting to install AutoWikiBrowser on:-


 * '''Windows XP
 * 32 bit
 * Internet Explorer as default (but switch to Firefox for normal use on Wikipedia)
 * The latest version of .NET Framework ... .NET Framework 4 ... installed yesterday
 * I download the release version here
 * The zip file is unzipped to a new directory.
 * Shortcut created for file: AutoWikiBrowser, for the desktop.
 * I am told that AutoWikiBrowser is installed on the PC but,
 * when I double click on the shortcut, I receive a message from .NET Framework Initialisation Error which tells me this:
 * Unable to find a version of the runtime to run this application

Where am I going wrong? -- Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 11:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Gareth, you might want to ask this question at Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser but from the look of it it's a .Net framework issue. Before you updated to v4 what version did you have installed?  I think AWB requires v2.0 so if you've installed v4.0 as new or upgraded from v1.0 to v4.0 you might need to uninstall it, download v2.0 - check if AWB runs then and if it does then reinstall v4.0.  That's only my opinion not a sure fire solution. NtheP (talk) 17:44, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you NtheP, You may well be right.  I shall follow your advice.  -- Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:33, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

And how to create a Barnstar?
Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:41, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Barnstars are created like any other page on wikipedia. Have a read of Barnstars though before you create one as they aren't intended as random items but have a specific use and purpose - to reward people for hard work and due diligence. NtheP (talk) 07:56, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I read all those but what do you mean'like any other page in wikipedia?'Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 08:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * A barnstar is a page, normally a template, so they are created as if you were creating any other template. If there is something intricate in the coding that you need a hand with then I'd suggest leaving a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia Awards. NtheP (talk) 10:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

How can you create a template then?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 10:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you wanting to put one on someone's page? If so, try this. Go here, Barnstars, find the one that fits your needs, and copy the text that is in the middle column. Paste it on the user talk page of the person you're giving it to, and type your own message in where the black words are. Try it in your sandbox first, to get it right. That's how I did it, anyway, and it worked. If you want to make a brand new one, you're way out of my league. :) Tlqk56 (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

i hereby tell that i'll be inactive for the next 11 hours(10:30 pm-10 am here) and I want to make a new barnstar ,and not putting any wikilove.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 16:35, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

How can we create a template?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 04:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello Mir,


 * Like you I have no idea how to create a template. However, I've learned that poking around a bit usually pays off quickly, so let's try learning together.


 * Type in wp:template in the search box. That points me to help:template for "template use and development", which in turn has a section on  Creating and Editing Templates.
 * After reading that (and a fair amount of the surrounding text) I went off to my sandbox and made by own custom barnstar.
 * And here it is! >>>>> [[Image:Original_Barnstar.png|20px|thumb|right|Barnstar not shown at actual size. [[User:Garamond Lethe|Garamond Lethe ]](talk)  06:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)]]
 * That took about an hour of playing around, with more playing than reading. There were a good dozen places where I got stuck.  If I had posted a message here and waited for help on each one it would have taken me two weeks to generate that template.  That's not an efficient (or enjoyable) way to learn a new programming language (or markup language, to be more precise).  If you're willing to set aside a chunk of time for some technical reading, you should be able to pick this up just as easily as I did.  Good Luck!  Garamond Lethe (talk)  06:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, lethe I have to do some Humourous work before that.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 06:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

How to...?
How can we create a userpage through Outreach:ACIP.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think you need to set up a userpage through ACIP but if you want to use the template on your user page it's New user bar. NtheP (talk) 07:53, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Anything else?Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 08:15, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not that I'm aware of. What is your concern? NtheP (talk) 10:13, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

We need help about Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Arab educational information network
Hello, this is our third attempt to submit our Article in Wikipedia, and we fail! we would please like to know how can we improve our references?

We read all the rules about reference and how to write it, and we know we need at least 3 reliable independent references to become notable, but all we have is 1 article and 1 conference proceeding that we can refer to as references but they are originally written in the Arabic language, and not published online but we're ready to scan it and send it to you if it helps.

N.b: The 2 references mentioned above were rejected the first time we submitted the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AEIN Shamaa (talk • contribs) 06:12, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

We have as well an Arabic website, that it's going to be in English very soon.

As you can see we are a new Non Governmental Organization (NGO) and we serve the academic public. Isn't that sufficient for being able to submit an article in Wikipedia?

Please advice us AEIN Shamaa (talk) 06:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, first of all, you use the term "we". Accounts should only represent one person; not an organization as a whole.  Second, after looking at your article, I don't see any actual references. Just being a new NGO is not sufficient for inclusion in Wikipedia; you must demonstrate notability, and an integral part of notability is significant coverage in independent, published reliable sources.  I don't see any actual citations to such sources in your article, and without citations, it really can't pass the notability test.  Now, the sources don't necessarily have to be published online, but they do have to be published in some form and cited, as appropriate, in the article itself. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 06:23, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * In the first and second attempt, I used references and footnotes that reviewers rejected, so I tried submitting the article without references.
 * The references were as the following:
 * Al-Sarraf, K. 2010. Report about: Arab Educational Information Network (Shamaa): from an experimental project to an Arabic leading foundation contributing in building a knowledge society in the Arab World. Journal of Arab Children "JAC", 11(44), 103-112}
 * Maalouf, R. 2010. Shamaa's contribution in the development of the Arabic digital library. Twenty first conference for the Arab Federation for Libraries & Information (AFLI).


 * What is the gap?
 * AEIN Shamaa (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Topic moved from Teahouse talk. NtheP (talk) 09:33, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note while English language sources are preferred, Arabic sources are perfectly acceptable. Rich Farmbrough, 00:22, 3 May 2012 (UTC).


 * I added a ref to the Ford Foundation 2011 grant, not a great ref, but better than nothing, and did a little tidying. The refs you have above look good. too. Rich Farmbrough, 01:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC).


 * Thank you very much for your help Mr. Rich Farmbrough. I added the two Arabic references. Would you please take a look at the final copy of the article to see if it's ready to be submitted now?AEIN Shamaa (talk) 07:53, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It would still benefit from more sources, but I would think it is worth submitting again. (I am not very familiar with the new article process, but I think there is little to loose - if more work is needed, we can address that.) Rich Farmbrough, 04:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC).

Make Article
So I created a page under my username in a sandbox and now I want to make it into an actual page that is visible to everyone. But all i keep doing is moving it around so can somoen help me. Thank You NJIT HUM 456 19:17, 4 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NJIT HUM 456 (talk • contribs)
 * Hey NJIT, there are a couple of things that need to be changed and then we can move it to Daniel Lewis James. First, can I request that you place a template db-g7 on NJIT HUM 456/sandbox/Daniel Lewis James and User:NJIT HUM 456/sandbox/Danny Santiago Controversy so we can move the page to User:NJIT HUM 456/Daniel Lewis James?  Then we can make some changes with references, section titles, and wikifying so we can later move it to Daniel Lewis James.  Ryan Vesey  Review me!  19:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and made a few changes already, I hope you don't mind. Good initiative and foresight on the references we just use a little different style. I did the first one as an example. I also did a few things to Wikify it a bit. Kumioko (talk) 20:02, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

What is the difference between Uploading an Image on WP / WP:Commons
I'm getting a bit confused at it. I know some of the basic differences but What advantage do I get if I upload a photo locally (ie., on WP) or on Commons? Can I upload pictures (under CC license with Non Commercial use condition) on WP locally (Since it is forbidden to use that on Commons). Kindly elaborate. Vivek Rai (talk) 17:02, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * There are advantages and disadvantages to both. In order to upload an image to commons the image has to be freely distributable, once its loaded to commons though it can be accessed by Wikipedia and all of the sister projects easily. If the file is not freely distributable, but is being retained using some rational such as fair use, then it cannot be added to commons but can be added to Wikipedia under certain circumstances. This allows it to be used on its corresponding Wikipedia articles but it cannot be used by the other sister projects. There might be some other reasons why one would be preferred over the other as well but I think this is probably the main one. Kumioko (talk) 19:37, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Make Text Visible
Creating a page but my introduction is cut off it is shown in a box how do i get it to show the entire text NJIT HUM 456 (talk) 14:03, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello, and welcome to the Teahouse! I took a quick look at your contributions and found your page. It looks like you tried to indent the start of your paragraph. While that may be proper style for something type-written or hand-written, lead sentences of paragraphs aren't indented in articles here, since it causes that box to appear, as you've discovered. If you wish to indent the whole thing (much as I have with this response), you add a colon at the start of the line. If you need to indent it more, you add more colons. Hope this helps! -- McDoob  AU  93  14:12, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi NJIT! I'm not a host, but I saw your question and thought I could help you out. Wikipedia doesn't use tabs when a new paragraph is created, so many new editors try to insert spaces.  This causes a problem, because any time spaces appear in front of a line of text, the MediaWiki software puts a blue box around it and it can run off of the page.  I also found this source that you might like to use.  Feel free to check with me when you believe your article is finished content wise and I can help you with any formatting, referencing, and other work that needs to be done to get it ready for the mainspace.  Ryan Vesey  Review me!  14:16, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you both and thank you for the link! — Preceding unsigned comment added by NJIT HUM 456 (talk • contribs) 14:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

My article keeps being rejected, while I think I am addressing the issues
Dear,

Can you have a look at my article submission on "Frank Buytendijk"? Editors have told me it should have more sources, and they should meet the reliability guidelines. I think I have done all that, but the article is rejected again...

I could REALLY use some help and some guidance on what is missing...

Thank you,

CasperJB CasperJB (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * CasperJB, welcome to the Teahouse. Looking at the article I don't think you have addressed the issue of more sources.  You've added a load more publications etc by Buytendijk but nothing extra about him or his work.  That's what sources are all about - independent reliable sources about him and why he is a notable author who merits a Wikipedia article. Reviews of his books, peer reviews of his journal papers are the types of source that are needed.  Other things that would help would be references to his employment, for example does he have a college biography on Cranfield's website or the LSE?  Lots of little things will do the trick, it doesn't have to be one blockbuster reference that does the trick. NtheP (talk) 21:01, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I added a reference and made a few minor tweaks. Ideally references discussing his work should be found. The risk is that a lot of effort is put into creating the article and the subject is not considered notable.  Work put into citations reduces this a fair amount.  Rich Farmbrough, 23:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC).

NtheP, Rich and Tlqk56: THANK YOU SO MUCH for the help. I hope I have sufficiently improved the article now. This is taking much more time than I expected, but I am starting to see the fun in it. I'd really like to see it through. Originally, I modeled the article after the article on another Dutch writer whose books I like: Andre De Waal. His article hardly has any sources. It seems the rules have changed. CasperJB (talk) 10:22, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

What do I do with this article that is not an article
I think this article qualifies for deletion but I'm not sure how to go about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodness_TV_India

Please advise Thks Sesamevoila (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Sesamevoila, hi and welcome to the Teahouse. You have four main routes to go on this article:


 * 1) And should always be the first to consider, can I edit the article to make it better and meet the notability criteria, backed up by verifiable, reliable sources? If not then if you think it ought to be deleted then
 * 2) Does the article meet one or more of the grounds for WP:speedy deletion - there are a number listed so I won't go through them all but each is fairly narrowly defined so you need to be confident that the criteria you select is met. For example criteria A7 no indication of importance does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify on Wikipedia's notability guidelines, so here as long as Goodness TV India is an actual station then this criteria may not apply.  If you think a criteria for speedy deletion is met then you add the relevant deletion template (example db-a7 to the article and leave the appropriate message on the creators talk page.  Anyone can contest the deletion but an administrator will make the assessment and decide whether or not to delete the article even if there is no objection.
 * 3) Proposed deletion (see Proposed deletion). If you think an article just doesn't belong here you can propose it for deletion by adding the template     to the top of the article where why are your reasons why the article should be deleted.  Again you should warn the creator of the article.  Any editor may contest the proposed deletion by simply removing the prod template.  if the deletion is not contested then seven days later an administrator will delete the article.  Once a proposed deletion has been contested, the article should not be proposed for deletion again.  However at this stage or at any time you can
 * 4) List an article for deletion (see Articles for deletion AFD). This process is used where you think neither speedy nor proposed deletion are appropriate or have been tried and failed.  In a nutshell you add a template  to the article to indicate that is has been listed for deletion, create a page for the deletion discussion saying why the article should be deleted and lastly add the deletion page to the deletion log that lists all articles listed for deletion that day.  (This is a very brief overview of AFD - please read the link above in detail before carrying out this process).  Your grounds for deletion need to include what Wikipedia policies the article falls foul of e.g. notability, non neutral point of view.  Reasons like "I don't like it" or "the creator of this article listed an article I created for deletion so I'm getting my own back" don't work.  The discussion stays open for seven days and during that time any editor can comment at the discussion page as to whether the article should be kept, deleted, merged, redirected or anything else.  At the end of the period an administrator will assess the comments made and decide whether or not to delete the article.
 * You'll see from this that only administrators can delete articles, other editors can initiate the process but only admins can carry out a deletion.
 * Hope this helps. NtheP (talk) 19:09, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you NtheP, for answering my query. So, can I completely delete the existing content which does not make any sense and rebuild from scratch? Or do i have to inform the page creator before I do that? Sesamevoila (talk) 19:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It might be polite to inform the page creator but as the majority of content on this particular article was only added recently by an IP address the creator may not be too bothered. Even if all you do is create a stub article from it, that may indeed be preferable to what's there now.  Even if it isn't the worst that can happen is that your edit is reverted. NtheP (talk) 19:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * With an article as small as this, if you plan to improve the article yourself, I'd recommend that you just go ahead and make the changes you feel are required. If you plan to just remove content without replacing it, it might be polite to speak to the article creator first. If you plan to improve the article, be bold and be ready to discuss any changes you make with anyone who disagrees. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 20:27, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi. The external links could be reworked as inline citations but you'll probably need to locate and include some additional secondary sources too. IMO there's no need to inform the creator (especially because there's so little content. Feel free to just get on and make some improvements! -- Trevj (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all the tips, everyone Sesamevoila (talk) 21:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

A question on Image Copyright Issues.
I have obtained a special permission to use some Images specifically on Wikipedia. The permission letter signed and given by the the copyright owner has the following conditions mentioned:


 * I agree to abide by the following conditions: a) permission is granted for one-time use only; b) a credit line must be included for each work reproduced as follows: Photographer, Year, Courtesy of the MIT Libraries, Aga Khan Visual Archive; as per the following example: John M. Smith, 1985, Courtesy of the MIT Libraries, Aga Khan Visual Archive; c) the image must link back to the original source in DOME d) reproduction(s) may not be used for advertising or promotional purposes.

Now, How do I upload pictures (not exactly the procedure to upload, rather the licensing and permission) on Wikipedia and what template (preferably If you can show by an example) should I use? Thanks Vivek Rai (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC) moved to top of page NtheP (talk) 17:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Vivek, I'm afraid that the permission you have isn't valid to allow use of the images on Wikipedia (or Commons). Licences for use on Wikipedia must be free for all users and all purposes, including non-Wikimedia use, commercial use, and derivative works. (see this link As the permission you have obtained limits use to wikipedia only, it can't be used. I have written on your talk page what licence you need and the process to be followed to once you have an appropriate permission. NtheP (talk) 17:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Typically, you may not. Wikipedia does not accept images unless they are licensed under a free-content license: Non-free_content. See if the MIT libraries might be willing to license under a free (as in speech) license, sometimes they will! :-) (Typically GFDL or -these days- CC-BY-SA. You can check the terms of use, or the links found at the bottom of (practically) any page for more details on Wikipedia licensing. --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:26, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair use rationale won't allow something to do? Vivek Rai (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, for fair use, you don't need permission to begin with. Hmmm, maybe it'll help if we know what the images represent, and where will they be used? --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:29, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. Please see this article here   Indira Gandhi Memorial Tulip Garden. I have to use some of the images hosted on a Website for this article. I think that those images are free to use because the original photographer has somewhat released it into Public domain. I contacted him, and he replied the following:
 * "Hello! Mr. Vivek Rai, I am the owner of those images (http://naman-astitva.blogspot.in/2012/04/magical-tulips-at-smt-indira-gandhi.html) you recently saw in Dr. Rita Pal's blog "The Naman Astitva". I would be very happy if you use the pictures for any purpose.Thanks!"

Though he didn't mention an explicit license, it seems obvious that he has no problem with me using them here or anywhere. What do you suggest? Second query: As for the images from the MIT library, Suppose I have to use those images images describing a historic monument and hence are are of utmost importance for description of the subject. What can be done then? Vivek Rai (talk) 05:40, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Strange Frame - declined
Aloha!

Supposedly my article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Frame has been declined. This is a movie I've been working on for 6 years and has had the support of such notable people as Roger Waters (Pink Floyd), Gary Rizzo, and many others. We had our premiere in London last week. An the critical response was overwhelmingly positive. Why are we being declined?

GBMangolo (talk) 03:47, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

BTW Although I submitted the article initially, others have contributed to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangolo (talk • contribs) 03:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Mangolo! This is really interesting. It seems that there was an earlier version of the article which was nominated for deletion, but rather than delete the article it was decided to move it to the incubator - which is where some promising articles are kept until they can be made ready for the main encyclopedia. That was back in early March. While in the incubator you created a new version which you submitted. Just after you submitted it, though, the editor working on the original finished it off and moved it back into the encyclopedia. So the article does exist - you can find it at Strange Frame. The other version, at Articles for Creation isn't needed now. :)
 * To answer your initial question, though, the problem was that the reviewer felt that the article needed just a bit more evidence (in terms of references) that the film was significant and had been noticed. The version now in the main Wikipedia has just a few more references from newspapers and similar sources, so that it shows how the film has been noticed. The difference is very minimal, but it makes a big difference for Wikipedia, as it means we have the sources needed to create a fuller and more neutral account. What we're always looking for is a few references to articles which look at the topic in some detail, but which are independent and considered reliable (so newspaper or magazine reviews are great).
 * Finally, it sounds like a movie I want to catch, especially with that animation style. I hope I get the opportunity one day - thanks for mentioning it here so I could find out about it. :) - Bilby (talk) 04:07, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Hope you get to see it too. Our Facebook page is one of the ways to stay up on where it is playing and when. Many thanks!


 * Hi GB! Welcome to the Teahouse. Congratulations on your movie, and I guess your article as well, because that looks like a regular article to me. (Where do you see yours being declined?) heather walls (talk) 03:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I received a message that said the article was being declined, but I guess the message was wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangolo (talk • contribs) 04:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

How can I create a page for a movie I directed?
I directed a feature length film entitled "Suburban Rebels", and I would like to create a page for it, but I know I can't create myself. What can I do?Phillip Urlevich 17:43, 6 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Urlevich (talk • contribs)


 * Hi Urlevich, and welcome to the Teahouse! It is possible to create the article yourself, however you must bear in mind that you have a Conflict of interest. One way of going about it would be writing the article then submitting it at Articles for Creation, where it will be reviewed; and if it meets the requirements it will be created. It must be notable by Wikipedia's standard; that means you must provide sufficient independent reliable sources. However without asserting notability your article will be deleted, so make sure you find such sources before starting. benzband  ( talk ) 18:21, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Link to German WP?
I'm baaack... I've added some material to an article from a [| corresponding_article] on the German WP (per recommendation). However, the article didn't cite any sources, so I clarified this in the lead for this section, and included a link to the German article.

My problem is: it seems that the link is required to be an external link -- but I suspect that there is a way to make it an internal link, since I am able to navigate to it internally.

Ideas? Suggestions? ~Eric F 98.26.28.41 (talk) 21:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)21:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Eric, you can create interwiki links by using a prefix that represents the other wiki you are linking to. For the German language this is   so your external link can be replaced by   to create the same link you had achieved externally. NtheP (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2012 (UTC) PS I've made the edit to the article
 * Okay, thanks! Btw (caution: rant ahead) why do uploaders insist on "improving" works of art before uploading -- and replacing older files with their "Quality Updates"?  This is especially annoying for watercolor paintings. (End of rant) ~E 21:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.28.41 (talk), however, it was later signed by ~Eric F 98.26.28.41 (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No problems. Can't help you with the upload question - I can only suggest talking with the "improvers" directly. NtheP (talk) 22:05, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi! There's at least four things to do with links to other language Wikipedias. Firstly using them as sources, where they should be treated as all other sources - and as well as keeping them as http://  they need to meet WP:RS - the reliable source guideline, which open wikis usually don't.  Secondly they can be added as "External links".  Thirdly they can be added as "Interwikis" - the list of foreign language articles you see at the left of some pages.  This is done the way Nthep describes, except without the first : Main page .  Fourthly the kind of link you are asking about and Nthep describes, which I would say is very rare to use in an article, and is more often used when there is a need to attribute, or provide a link to enable translation. Rich Farmbrough, 18:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)

User page and Talk page
I wanted to know if it is fine if users move stuff like barnstars from their talk page to their user page? Lunashy 05:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * It is fine. for e.g see this:User:Penyulap. Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 05:27, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! also wondering what is the command to make my userbox-box, go to the right? I have tried a few things like and  but it isn't working. The normal template, which is the one I'm using is userboxtop and userboxbottom which apparently userboxtop can support thing like left or right commands. ( Lunashy 05:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC))


 * I think you'll have to put an Infobox and put it under it. In my userpage, they are a mess, all around eveywhere.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 06:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yer, messy userboxes was my problem on my userpage (still is in my sandbox) and the userboxes-box helpe out heaps but the are only in 1 line and to the right, I might experiment with infoboxes. ( Lunashy Friendship letters.  07:02, 2 May 2012 (UTC))


 * It is actually an Infobox:User.Mir Almaat Ali Almaat  ☏  From Trivandrum, Kerala, India(UTC+5:30) 07:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * You were very close with   The syntax you actually want is    That will left align all your userboxes in one column.  If you want more than one column then you can use columns as well.
 * For example this code

produces


 * I'm sure there are other ways of doing it as well but this one works for me. NtheP (talk) 09:10, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * thank you, yet again Nthep, you are such a helpful Wikipedia, along side all the others who have helped me at the teahouse ( Lunashy Friendship letters. write a friendship letter 02:29, 4 May 2012 (UTC))
 * P.S. is there any way to change it from just saying userboxes? ( Lunashy Friendship letters. write a friendship letter 02:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC))

Sure, what would you like it to say? You can use toptext in the userboxtop template to change the text. Here is an example:

generates


 * I hope that helps but let us know if you have more questions. Kumioko (talk) 03:26, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * For an other way of displaying them you could take a look at User:Benzband/About. I used a scrolling table like this:


 * You can add as many more lines and columns as you like. Also, to omit the scrolling part just remove the  tags.  benzband  ( talk ) 08:18, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Credible, verifiable sources?
My students are researching wikipedia articles to post at the end of the academic term, and someone asked about using UrbanDictionary.com as a source. is that acceptable? It's verifiable, but it would be acceptable for only limited purposes in an academic assignment.

WGST490 (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)WGST490WGST490 (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Greetings, and welcome to the Teahouse! I actually just used Urban Dictionary to look up something, and on its title page it allows users to define their own words and phrases: "Urban Dictionary is the dictionary you wrote." As such, that makes it generally unreliable as a source for a Wikipedia article. Hope this answers your question! -- McDoob  AU  93  21:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! That's what we suspected. WGST490 (talk) 21:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to confirm, only in very unusual circumstances, for example to show when a phrase was first used, or to cite something about the web site itself - such as the very strap line McDoob gives above. Rich Farmbrough, 22:48, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)

Adding a picture and caption
How do I do this

ChrisRehr

ChrisRehr (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Chris. It depends if the picture is already on Wikipedia. If it is then you just need something like

.

If not you need to use the "upload file" in the toolbox to the left of the screen. Make sure that the picture is not limited by someone else's copyright before you upload it. That pretty much means it must be public domain, released under a suitable license already, or your own work. (There's also fair use. Any questions on the copyright, please ask. Rich Farmbrough, 22:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)


 * Thanks, Rich! I think Chris added a link to the photo on their talk page. Are you able to address that? (Is the toolbox to the right of the screen? it's left on mine.) heather walls (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hah! I moved the image to the right using replace all.. silly me. I'll take a look. Rich Farmbrough, 22:37, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)


 * OK Imgur's Terms of Service here don't indicate that the uploaded files are released under any license, except to Imgur. So unfortunately the image almost certainly  can't be used on Wikipedia as things stand.  Rich Farmbrough, 22:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)

Thanks, guys. It's a picture of the subject of the bio I posted, with the current President of Israel. His son took the photo. I spoke to few people in chat and am working on going thru the wikipedia procedures to have it cleared.

ChrisRehr

Incubator
If a page gets deleted after an Afd (and then moved to the incubator). Can the Incubator article simply get moved or does an user have to start an new thread at WP:DRV? mabdul 08:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Start by approaching the administrator who closed the AfD. If s/he agrees that the reasons for deletion have been overcome, s/he can authorise moving the article back to the main space. If not, then you can go to DRV. JohnCD (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Citing One Source Twice
Hello, I am attempting to cite one source twice, but every time I attempt to do what it says on the Citing Sources page, I get error messages. Is there any way this can be explained a little easier to me? Thanks! DebraHardy (talk) 05:16, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Debra. Here's how you code it up.  If I have a cite and then want to cite it again, this seems to work.


 * Here's what I typed in to get that.
 * Hope that helps! Garamond Lethe (talk) 07:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hope that helps! Garamond Lethe (talk) 07:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

need help with fixing loc. cit.
I was cleaning up (more or less regular) some pages tagging with ibid. I asked a few months ago User talk:Sören sch what he was supposed to do, but his answer is not clear to me. Can somebody help me and fix it? mabdul 16:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Mabdul. The basic idea is to replace the "ibid" or "loc. cit." with the full reference. (This is because when someone changes the order of a page or removes a chunk, the thing that ibid referred too might vanish, or be in the wrong order.)  It's a judgement call just how you do it.  If it's just different pages you can use a "Cite" template for the work and  for the page, you can replicate the entire reference with just the page number changed, or you can used WP:Harvard referencing.  I expect someone will add other possible methods presently.  Rich Farmbrough, 19:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)


 * In keeping with Rich's "when someone changes the order..." concern, it's probably a good idea to check the Page history of the article you are editing to find when the "ibid" cite was added. That way you know what that writer meant at that time and are adding the full reference to the right work. Otherwise there's the risk that you could be permanently creating exactly the problem we're trying to avoid. DMacks (talk) 04:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Did somebody read the actual page? I know what ibid and loc cit, c.f. and other stuff is and I know how to fix it normally. In this case I ask the user and I got an answer! But sadly I couldn't do anything with that... mabdul 08:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say "See the program description by the MOST:" is the cit loc target. And while it may be clumsy and not a great reference it's an improvement. Sören Sch seems to think you are talking about "Ke Yan (Ke, Yan), Science and Technology in China, German Edition (Beijing 2005), p.109".  Did I understand the question this time? Rich Farmbrough, 22:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)

Correct use of cite tag?
I ran across this bit of markup in the article on Trey Gunn:



That ends up looking like:


 * outlets for his artistic expression.

I was wondering why  was preferred to , but in looking around for the   tag I couldn't locate any documentation. Is  an anachronism? Should  be used instead?

Thanks! Garamond Lethe (talk) 05:03, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Garamond! Cite is only useful in that it formats the presentation. It doesn't work as a replacement for a ref tag, but normally you would combine the two. So in this case I'd use:
 * Actually, I'd probaby add a tad more:
 * (I like access dates). Some people go for Harvard-style references, but there the cite reference isn't much use in the article proper anyway. - Bilby (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (I like access dates). Some people go for Harvard-style references, but there the cite reference isn't much use in the article proper anyway. - Bilby (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (I like access dates). Some people go for Harvard-style references, but there the cite reference isn't much use in the article proper anyway. - Bilby (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Bilby, that's exactly what I needed to know and I've updated the page. Thanks for the quick response!  Garamond Lethe (talk)  05:57, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Follow-up question: I found Template:Cite Web which lists all of the metadata tags available and gives examples of how they can be used.  I thought I would be clever and use , but that didn't do what I thought it should.  Is there a "timestamp template" that works inside of other templates? <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 1em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">Garamond Lethe <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.8em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">(talk)  09:11, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what behaviour you were expecting but Plain now works fine for me inside cite web - see User:Nthep/sandbox for an example. The down side to using plain now is that every time I edit that page and save it, the time will update to the time I saved the page.  In any event I wouldn't use it for the date in cite web as that parameter is there for the date of the web page (if it has one), you could potentially use it for accessdate but with the limitation I described.  If you only want the date not the time use Currentdaymonthyear but it suffers from the same problem. NtheP (talk) 15:46, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that can be resolved with "substituting" so will "freeze" the date - 29 July 2024. Rich Farmbrough, 17:57, 6 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)


 * Ah, good idea! But the   replaces   with




 * instead of




 * (shallow-copying versus deep-copying, if you like). So you end up having the same problem Nthep pointed out.  I can write my own template to do that, but... ok, yes, this is a solved problem.  Now I just need to figure out which one of those to use. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 1em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">Garamond Lethe <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.8em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">(talk)  19:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah yes the template is less smart than I thought. Rich Farmbrough, 22:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC). (Using some automation)