Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 20

Create new article
SASQ (Sorry for Asking a Stupid Question)...

How do I create a new article, which does not exist yet? MeliusWeideman (talk) 07:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That is a common question, not a stupid one. Go to Articles for creation and follow the instructions.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   15:36, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Melius! Welcome to the Teahouse, we're glad you are here. And no, like Blue said, it's not a stupid question :) It might be easier for you to get started with that link above, or simply click the "My sandbox" link on the top right menu by your username and you can start working in that space. If you have specific questions about the editing process, etc, feel free to drop by and let us know. Welcome to Wikipedia! :) Sarah (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Editing the article
Hi All !

I want to add the following information to an article:

- Bhangi Misl also held the possession of Zamzama, the famous cannon, and it got names like Bhangi Toap, Bhangianwala Toap and Bhangian di Top. To this day it retains these along with several other names - Citation Used:

Singh, Khushwant A History of the Sikhs, Volume 1: 1469-1839. Oxford University Press, 2004, Page-198, Footnote-11,ISBN 0195673085, 9780195673081 -

Please let me know if this is correct, as a few earlier edits(whose citation was not considered genuine) were deleted.

LakhdeepSinghFarwaha (talk) 06:07, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi LakhdeepSinghFarwaha, welcome to the Teahouse! It looks like you already worked this out with another editor on your talk page and the information is now included in the article. Congratulations! Great job being patient, persistent and using correct citation. heather walls (talk) 07:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Parentheses
This might sound a bit basic as I tend to think I know what I am doing on Wikipedia, but what is the difference and uses between [ ],  { },. Also, which one causes text to turn blue and which one justs causes the text to become a number ie. [1]? Thanks. Dan653 (talk) 23:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC) -- Neil N   talk to me  23:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * [ ] is for external links. Example: Google will turn into Google
 * is for internal links. Example: Google will turn into Google
 * is for adding templates. Example: will add "citation needed" after the text.
 * To add references, see Referencing for beginners
 * Thanks for the quick response. Before this I would guess and use the preview button, but could never remember which did what because no one ever outlined it for me. Dan653 (talk) 00:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Happy to help. If you have any further questions, just ask. -- Neil N   talk to me  00:06, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey Dan!, if you ever forget in the future you can look at the top of the edit window. There is a button that says Help.  If you click it, a drop down menu appears that reminds you how to do some of the formatting. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  01:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Strange copying
Since the mid-April, I have been waiting for the decision over the article, Mishari bin Saud that is under review. However, today another user published this article. I have realized that s/he copied the article using the link on my talk page. Is it fair? Can you please help me ? Thanks,

Egeymi (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed I can. Whilst everything you write on the encyclopedia is released under license and you hold few rights to the text after releasing, you do hold the right to "attribution", something this editor did not provide you. I'll get on this and sort it out for you. Worm TT(talk ) 17:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The attribution wasn't given. Mishari bin Saud bin Abdul-Aziz vs. . -- Neil N   talk to me  17:32, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. I've done a history merge, so it's now clear where the information came from - publishing the article for creation. It looked notable enough for me, if there's an issue, it can be taken to AfD. I'll now explain to the editors on their talk pages. Worm TT(talk ) 17:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

How can I upload a picture for rationale use?
The article Alenoush Terian needs one of her last photos. I have found some pictures of her but non of them is free to use so I thought to upload a rationable non-free content picture. but the upload form needs details about the person who created but I couldn't find anything about the creators of the pictures? Can I upload it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pouyakhani (talk • contribs) 16:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Pouyakhani. Can I ask why you think the article needs one of her last photos? The photo which is there is free to use (I assume, since it's on Commons) and clearly shows what she looks like. Generally, to use non-free images we need to meet some specific criteria and one is that we use as little non free content as possible - shouldn't use it at all if an equivalent shows the information. That's why I ask, why you believe the article needs a different non-free photo. Worm TT(talk ) 17:07, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fast reply! The image is used already is old and yeah it is free to use and I guess is not really recognizable. That non-free image I wanted to upload is This one.. but you as an experienced Wikipedian think it doesn't need a new photo then I guess it's unnecessary too. Pouyakhani (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm not the be all and end all here! One of the reasons I love wikipedia is that everything is up for calm discussion. So, if you believe the article needs that image, that it illustrates her as a person more accurately than one when she was younger, or that there's some specific reason that the article should have that particular image (if it were to show, for instance her dress sense in later life, which was relevant to her career as a physicist). Of course, it's important that we keep the encyclopedia free too, so it's all about balance. Worm TT(talk ) 17:24, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I just thought that image is better because it was used in the media more. Although I don't know who is the creator so I guess I will not be able to upload it. Pouyakhani (talk) 18:20, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest that if the media is using it, then us publishing it on the free encyclopedia will likely cause the owner of the copyright to lose out financially. <font color='#000'>Worm TT(<font color='#060'>talk ) 18:24, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh Yeah you right.! Thanks for helping again!Pouyakhani (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Disambigulation + Moving an article.
Hello Teahousers. I have an uncommon artist I am writing an article on, with a rather common name, so it will need to be disambiguated to read John Smith, artist, instead of just John Smith.

--Can you point me to an example of how to disambiguate for the correct title.

-- So pretty soon it will have the correct title and be moved. To move this article into the main section (possible dumb question here) do I move it to "Wikipedia" or to a different label in the pull-down? Last time I picked the wrong word, and it was corrected, but I'm not sure how.

Thanks, as always, Marilyn Nix (talk) 02:58, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Marilyn Nix and welcome back to the Teahouse! You should create it at John Smith (artist) then you can add a link to that page to John Smith.  When you move the article select (Article) from the pull-down. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  03:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Place of birth in lead?
Is there a policy against stating one's place of birth in the lead, i.e. (Sample Person, born 6/6/2012, in Anytown, Anywhere)? As in, would the Anytown, Anywhere part not belong? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Strikeout, this may help. I guess it depends on the situation however for my part i have rarely (if ever? ~ i can't remember) seen it that way. Just out of curiosity, are you thinking of an article in particular? benzband  ( talk ) 19:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * No, not necessarily. I was mainly thinking of it as a way to spend some time. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I have edited numerous articles about people. I would say it is very common for the place of birth to be in the lead parapgraph. --Greenmaven (talk) 22:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I'd go out of my way to introduce Anytown, Anywhere into the lede unless the person's notability was deeply tied to the place or they had a very common name and their place of birth formed part of the essential disambigation information (Think John Smith). For most people, it's just not that important where they were born. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Also if you happen to remove it from a lead, make sure it is stated elsewhere in the article. benzband  ( talk ) 16:10, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: i said ~ i apologize for i can't have been paying attention.  benzband  ( talk ) 17:17, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Dangerous users
Are there also dangerous users working on the Wikipedia, who are criminals or fundamentalists or something like that in real life? Morgan Katarn (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, probably? I don't know that I would necessarily categorize fundamentalists as "dangerous", although some of them certainly are, but regardless, this is the Internet.  You can't really be sure who's behind a screen name.  As long as you're reasonably careful though (and creating an account is a good first step), that anonymity goes both ways, and it can protect you as well as them.  Don't give out too many (or any) personal details about yourself, be sure to only edit while logged in, and you should be okay. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 18:36, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is it dangerous if you edit when you're not logged in? Ok, your IP gets saved, what else? Morgan Katarn (talk) 18:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing else, but, depending on a number of factors, an attacker that knows your IP address might be able to geolocate you and thus find out where you live and other information about you. (Note that I'm using "attacker" in the sense of a "cryptographic attack", not a "coming to beat you up" attack.) Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 19:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Apart from any security issues it doesn't offer as many possibilities as logged-in users, such as article creation, page moving, customization of the interface, etc. benzband  ( talk ) 19:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Special page where I can ask individual questions like on the Wikipedia:Auskunft in the German Wikipedia.
Hi folks! Is there a special page where I can ask questions like on the Wikipedia:Auskunft what belongs to the German Wikipedia? Morgan Katarn (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there Morgan! I don't understand German, but that page appears similar to our reference desk.  Try that link and see if it is what you desire. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  18:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Got it ;) Morgan Katarn (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Uploading a picture
Hi guys,

I'm new to the Wiki world of editing, but as a current editor I'm keen to get in the thick of it and get involved.

I've already jumped into the deep-end and edited a few pages (spelling, punctuation and grammar).

However, I've submitted a new page (waiting for approval - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Gapyear.com) but I'm finding it really tricky uploading a picture. Could anyone help me with this one please?

Cheers,

Macca501

Macca501 (talk) 10:24, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Look on the menu on the left of any page and see "Upload file". A wizard appears and asks you questions about your picture, then tells you how to put into into your page. Have you tried using this process?  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   13:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Macca,
 * If you want to upload an image from your computer for use in an article, you must determine the proper license of the image (or whether it is in the public domain). If you know the image is public domain or copyrighted but under a suitable free-license, upload it to the Wikimedia Commons instead of here, so that all projects have access to the image (sign up). If you are unsure of the licensing status, see the file upload wizard for more information. Please also read Wikipedia's image use policy.
 * If you want to add an image that has already been uploaded to Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons, add  to the area of the article where you want the image to appear – replacing   with the actual file name of the image, and   with a short description of the image. See our picture tutorial for more information.
 * Hope this helps.  benzband  ( talk ) 18:52, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Creating my user about me page
Thank you to Heather who responded so quickly. I am going to start my user about me page I guess that would be a good place to start. If I come back here later I could ask someone to check it out for me right? And can I always find responses to questions where I found the response to the last question in my new messages section? Or do I need to come back here to see the answers. Oh and where can I find other user about me pages to look at for examples? Tattoodwaitress (talk) 01:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there, again! You can design your userpage however you wish. There really isn't a specific type of userpage style or guide that I know of that shows you specific examples. Perhaps visiting the history pages of articles that interest you might help? (you can see my userpage by just clicking on my username in my signature). And of course, you're welcome to come back here and have us check it out :) You'll have to revisit the Teahouse to see the answers to your questions. When we answer a question for you we leave a talkback message on your userpage, so when you log in you will be told that you have a new answer. Just follow the link to the Teahouse response in the talkback box. Can't wait to see your userpage! Sarah (talk) 02:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, Tottood! You can find anybody's talk page by clicking on the blue (talk) link next to their signature. If it's red, it means they haven't started their page yet, so there's nothing to see. To leave a message on someone's talk page, go to it and click on "New Section" at the top right. It opens a page with a place to put the heading, and a big box to write your message in. Scroll to the bottom of the box and save it when you're done. If someone leaves a message on your talk page you'll get that orange message notice. Some people may just post the answer right on your talk page. If you ask a question here, most people will answer here, so everyone can learn along with you. If you click on someone's name (like my Tlqk56), you go to their User page. (Again, if it's red, they haven't started it yet.) Start exploring and have fun!
 * I'm pretty new to Wikipedia myself. I can say that you are definitely welcome to ask anything here -- I've had to ask a few really dumb questions, along with some not-so-dumb ones, and everybody is always helpful and friendly. Nice to meet you. Tlqk56 (talk) 02:11, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Great way to put it Tlqk :) Sarah (talk) 02:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow thank you all so much... now when I reply to you as I am doing now (i just hit the edit button and adding to the bottom is that good? will you get the notice that I replied? Or should I hit your talk link then reply? Hope you get my thank yous. I will work a bit more on this another time... retiring for the evening. Thanks again for the help and ta ta for now. Tattoodwaitress (talk) 03:09, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi again. You replied perfectly here. Unfortunately, the notice that you've replied here isn't automatic. You also have to go to the person's talk page and leave a message so they know to look here. There's a template you can use someplace, but as I usually just ask questions, I didn't save it. Teahouse is still experimental, and I'm hoping that when it gets more established the notifications will happen automatically.Tlqk56 (talk) 19:49, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * New user bar Is a nice template suitable for new users. I have posted this on Tattoodwaitress feel free to remove it in case you dont like it. :) -- Ð ℬig <font color="#10AD00">XЯaɣ  14:42, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

One thing to make note of is WP:UPNOT which probably won't affect what you want to put on your page. This is one of those arbitrary "policies" which is more likely to affect a "minority" or "under-represented" person for example expressing support of social or political views that are unpopular. A favorite victim for the wiki-thought-police is anything that is arguably "promotion of pedophilia". On the other hand some administrators have gotten away with plastering their user page with promotional material for blatant terrorist organizations. I would probably like to put some swastikas on my user page and may well do that but what point would there be to arguing whether it was political, religious or inflammatory. I would almost certainly lose the dispute. Anyway, you can't really make your user page a personal web site. <font color="#0044FF">Obotlig <font color="#000000">☣ <font color="#008844">interrogate 01:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Offering help with copyediting
Hi. There's probably a way to make myself available for editors seeking copy-editing and such. What would that be? junglejill (talk) 23:17, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, Junglejill! Welcome to Teahouse. (If you haven't been here before. I'm not sure.) I'm just finding my way around here myself, but I do know there is a WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors you will find if you click on this link. They are organized and active, and it's one place you can definitely connect with people who need your skills. Happy editing! Tlqk56 (talk) 00:20, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I am indeed new. Thanks for the quick reply! Where's my tea now?junglejill (talk) 00:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Tea Cup.jpg Vesey Review me!  00:39, 9 June 2012 (UTC)]]

Editing
I don't know any websites to get any reliable sources when i want to edit something. Please help Beggsie221 (talk) 05:22, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Beggsie. What type of subject(s) are you interested in writing about? Perhaps that can help us help you :) Sarah (talk) 05:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Music, mostly the genres of songs or albums it's really hard trying to find a reliable source about genres Beggsie221 (talk) 05:34, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hey, maybe you could try AllMusic, Discogs and MusicBrainz? benzband  ( talk ) 05:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Addendum: There are templates available to make referencing these websites easier: allmusic, discogs and musicbrainz. For instance, if wanted to reference say Op Ivy, i could use:
 * and for their compilation album of the same name i could use:
 * (here with discogs master instead of discogs release because it happens to be a master release)
 * Hope this helps! benzband  ( talk ) 06:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * and for their compilation album of the same name i could use:
 * (here with discogs master instead of discogs release because it happens to be a master release)
 * Hope this helps! benzband  ( talk ) 06:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hope this helps! benzband  ( talk ) 06:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hope this helps! benzband  ( talk ) 06:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Removing 'Needs Citation' Tags...
Hi there!

I think I've fixed the 'lack of citations' problem on the Fred D'Aguiar page (it had no references before, and now has several...). Do I just go ahead and remove the 'needs citation' tag or do I ask/wait for someone else to do it?

Thank you!

Loriski (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Loriski! If you feel you have fixed a problem mentioned by some maintenance template, just be bold and remove it! In this case, was added in December 2007 because the article lacked citations but since then things have moved on. Congratulations on your work by the way :D  benzband  ( talk ) 16:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant! Thank you benzband :) Loriski (talk) 16:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Can you make your own wiki?
I was wanting a wiki, like how people make minecraft wikis, zombie wikis,etc. Can you make your own wiki?Laws16 (talk) 15:37, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Laws, an welcome to wiki-pedia! A question like this would usually be asked at the computing reference desk, as it is more of a factual question (about computers) than a question about editing wikipedia :-) I believe you can set up a wiki with wikia (http://www.wikia.com), which is a free web hosting service for wikis co-founded by Jimmy Wales himself, founder of Wikipedia. You could also create your own wiki hosted on your local computer running MediaWiki software (which is used by Wikipedia). benzband  ( talk ) 15:49, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is my article declined?
Can I ask for specific help here. My company's page has been declined. It is a highly notable company that is referenced in other Wikipedia articles. It is written in an extremely neutral tone. The references are very strong. Can you please help me figure out why? Page is called "Innosight" Innovatewiki (talk) 12:14, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You say "the references are very strong", but [] has only two independent references, one of which does not mention Innosight, and the other refers to it but is not really about it. If you mean the list of papers published by Christensen they are not independent, and so cannot be used to establish the company's notability (that long list is in any case inappropriate in an article about the company). The references you have got almost certainly establish the Christensen is notable, but not that the company is. You need independent reliable sources which have written substantially about the company, otherwise it is not currently notable by Wikipedia's standards. --ColinFine (talk) 13:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome to the Teahouse, Innovatewiki. Does ColinFine's advice make sense to you? Feel free to come back if you have other questions. heather walls (talk) 17:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

T.S.Eliot's Preludes.
What is the main focusing theme in PreludesParamie Manthila (talk) 08:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Paramie. Thanks for coming by. We are here to help people learn to edit rather than answer specialist questions. You could try asking at the Reference Desk under the Humanities section.--Charles (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Using journals as sources?
Hi, it's me again. :) I was under the impression that you can't use autobiographies or published journals as a source of facts for articles, but now I'm wondering if that's wrong. There is an experienced Wikipedian who is adding a lot to Wanda Gag, which is great, but he's using her published journals as one of his sources. Is that OK? I don't want to ask him about it. Thanks for clarifying. Tlqk56 (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello there! I was checking out the Citation Guidelines, and according to this section of the page that you indeed can use journals as sources. I don't believe that article said anything about autobiographies. Does that help? -- A Wild Abigail Appears!  Capture me.   Moves.  01:49, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi! It gets a bit murky when you hit autobiographies. Generally they aren't preferred, but for non-controversial facts and opinions attributed to the author they can be ok. So it is alright to quote someone's autobiography to say that they were born in a certain place, or what their first job was, but if those issues are in dispute, or aren't simple factual statements, then they will be dropped in favour of secondary sources. They also don't count towards keeping an article - only independent secondary sources count for that.
 * All else being equal, secondary sources are preferred over primary and autobiographical ones. There's a bit more detail over at WP:ABOUTSELF if you are interested. :) - Bilby (talk) 03:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey! Welcome as always Tlqk! (If you don't mind me calling you that =) ) +1 to both Bilby and Abigail. As a Wikipedian who is a curator and researcher by trade, and someone who frequently uses primary sources in that work, when I have written biographies about people and utilized primary sources - such as oral histories or journals (diaries), I always use them sparingly. I use them to perhaps clarify certain facts, i.e. the spelling of something, birth date, locations, degrees, jobs. I never include things like gossip, so to say, or things that could be the least bit questionable, since it is a primary document. Perhaps this helps a bit...as when I do use these primary docs, I just keep it to the facts and the least challengable content. Sometime I do include perhaps a comment about another person (like another artist) in that artists article ("smith though that pollock was a "snarky asshole," for example because it is entertaining, and true ;) ). Hope this helps a bit. Sarah (talk) 04:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you. I misunderstood that; I've been leaving out information if I couldn't find it someplace else. It's good to know you can use them for some things, occasionally I find a person's writing fills in gaps of employment or schooling, for instance, that I can't find anywhere else, but I thought I couldn't use it without a verifiable secondary source. I guess I took the strictures against them too seriously. I think I've been trying too hard not to get it wrong. This does help me to understand it better. I will read the page Bilby mentioned, too. So, thanks again everyone, (and you can call me any form of those letters or names you want, Sarah. NP) :) Tlqk56 (talk) 04:52, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You can also use . benzband  ( talk ) 10:22, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that was for "journals" as in "magazines". I was using the journal as in "diary" -- and I guess I should have specified that. It is confusing. And so hard to tell which "rules" are really important and which ones are looser. Tlqk56 (talk) 15:49, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * From Ignore all rules: (what this actually means). I'd say among the utmost important rules are the five pillars that hold the encyclopedia up :-)  benzband  ( talk ) 15:55, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Until somebody comes along and blasts you for it with some other rule you've never heard of before. LOL But I get your drift. Just wish everyone managed to be as helpful as people are here. Honestly, some stuff that's happened would have made me throw in the towel earlier, but knowing I can come here for honest answers has kept me going. So, Thanks, everybody. And I'll make a copy of that rule, benzband. I like it. :) Tlqk56 (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Navboxes minor?
Is adding a navbox to an article considered a minor edit? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, Strikeout! I'd say probably not; my rule of thumb is that if you have to ask, it's probably not minor. And no harm really occurs if a change is misflagged (with one exception: if you're making a minor edit (fixing a typo you made or whatever) on someone's user talk page, and you don't flag it as minor, they'll get another, perhaps unnecessary "You have new messages" banner).  But all in all, it's not something to break a sweat about; if you're not sure, just make the edit without marking it as a minor edit and go on your way.  It's not a big deal. :) Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 19:16, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi again AutomaticStrikeout! According to Help:Minor edit, "Adding or removing visible tags or other templates in an article" does not constitute a minor edit (see Help:Minor edit). Hope this helps, benzband  ( talk ) 10:18, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

1st (and probably last) Article Submitted
Well, depending on how this goes, I may have 1 more left. Any way for you to let me know if mine is going to make it? Cnhudson (talk) 01:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome, Cnhudson. I found your article at Rising Sun Lodge 29.  I see that you put a lot of work into it.  I also see a probable conflict of interest issue because you are a member of the lodge.  I also see that some other editors added some  tags.  All those problems can be overcome.  A second party who isn't connected with the lodge can help and junglejill (talk) posted an offer to help down a bit further here in the Teahouse.  If you ask on her talk page, she may be willing to work on your page before it is reviewed.  A couple suggestions:
 * More independent third-party reliable sources since most are now primary sources. Look for articles in newspapers about your lodge's charitable and community activities.
 * Review other Wikipedia articles on lodges for ideas. Is the building historic or notable?
 * Then please stick around. Everyone can make valuable contributions to Wikipedia. DocTree (talk) 03:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Editors watching articles
Is there a way of knowing whether an article is being watched by other editors? <font color="#669900">ʝungle jill  23:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey Junglejill! You can check if it is being watched, but not who is watching it.  If you click view history, near the top of the page above the "compare selected revisions" button there is a link to "Number of watchers".  If there are more than 30 watchers, it will tell you how many watchers there are.  If there are less, it won't say anything. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  23:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Cool! I never saw that before. Teahouse Q&A has 144 watchers. Thanks, Ryan! heather walls (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Just curious, do you know what's the reasoning behind the 30 watchers minimum? <font color="#669900">ʝungle jill  00:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My nderstanding was that if vandals could work out which pages were unwatched, they could target edits to do more damage. So the count stops at 30 to avoid letting them know when there are very few watchers. - Bilby (talk) 00:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Where do you put "III" in the ref?
Well, here's one I don't remember hitting before, and I can't figure out where to look to find out. When you're dividing someone's name to cite last name first, where do you put things like "Sr" or "III" as in George Jones III? I did it Jones, George III, but I have no idea if that's right.
 * (edit conflict) Hello. You would put the it after the surname, i.e. John H. Smith, Sr. would be |first=John H. |last=Smith, Sr. Hope this helps. --Rosiestep (talk) 23:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, I'm not actually seeing the article, but an abstract of the article, and quoting from it. How do I deal with that? Again, it's new territory for me, but I know some of you awesome folks will know what to do. Thanks again. Tlqk56 (talk) 23:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Rosiestep. It makes sense to do it that way, but for some reason I though it was wrong. Sometimes I wonder what my brain is doing, LOL. Anyway, I appreciate the answer. Have a great day. Tlqk56 (talk)

Flood of Questionable Articles - How Should This be Handled?
User Gregj84 is posting lots of new articles directly to the main space. Many are just a copy-and-paste of a paragraph from A Chinese Biographical Dictionary, by Herbert Allen Giles which was published in 1898. It's available at Google Books as a free download. Some examples include Sun (surname), Sun Yuting, Fu La-t'a, Fu Yau-yu, Fu Yue and Sun K'ai-hua. In my opinion, these tiny stub articles are not appropriate in the English Wikipedia. The user objected to a speedy deletion and denied copyright violation even though it was obvious when I nominated one of his pages that was a copy-and-paste from a current copyrighted document that is partly available in on-line searches. So many articles are being created so quickly that the usual articles for deletion procedure will be a burden. What is the appropriate action? Suggestions, please. DocTree (talk) 19:19, 10 June 2012 (UTC) <font style="background:#000000;color:#FFFFFF">Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  22:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, welcome to the teahouse. The articles with copyright issues would have to be tagged for speedy deletion since having copyrighted information here is not allowed. However, I don't see any other way by which the other articles can be deleted other than AfD. You may try PRODing it. Roshan220195 (talk) 19:41, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * In the first instance, when you percieve an issue with another editor's actions you should probably take ask the editor in question about it, either on the editor talk page or the article talk page. In this case, it seems very likely that the articles meet the notability threshold. There is an entire community of users at WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles who go through authoritatative sources looking for classes of people / places / events / buildings / etc which meet the notability criteria. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there - I'm no copyright expert, but it says the book in question is called "A Chinese Biographical Dictionary (1898)" - and it was published in 1898. Aren't publications prior to 1923 considered in the public domain? That may well mean there is no Copyright Violation. If there is an issue over copyright, and it is happening many times - the best place to get it dealt with is the Contributor copyright investigations or WP:CCI. If there is an ongoing issue with many pages, they are equipped to deal with all the violations on mass - in one go! Hope that helps.
 * My perception is that these articles are a case of what Wikipedia is not, specifically not Mere collections of public domain or other source material. The articles are cut-and-paste, making every name in the source document a separate article with no apparent attempt to write an encyclopedic article.  As an example, below is one article:

"Fu Yao-yu (1024–1091) was an upright official of the Chinese Song Dynasty, and a vigorous opponent of the reforms of Wang Anshi, for which opposition he was banished to act as a superintendent of pastures. At his death, the empress said, “Truly he was a perfect man, as it were of gold or jade!'"
 * The Chinese Biographical Dictionary is a great source for work on the list of Missing topics about History of China.  If the consensus of more experienced editors is that creating a similar article for each of the 2,579 names listed in the biographical dictionary is appropriate and that the articles meet the notability threshold, I will cease my objection. DocTree (talk) 23:27, 10 June 2012 (UTC) PS: Thanks, <font style="background:#000000;color:#FFFFFF">Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^), but the copyright issue was separate and dealt with in the usual way.
 * Consensus is pretty nebulous around this kind of thing until actually tested. The page titles listed on Missing topics about History of China all look reasonable to me, but I know almost nothing on Chinese history. If you have a problem, pick an article, do the usual AfD homework and then nominate it for deletion. Your nomination should make it clear that this is a test case. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello. I reviewed the above list and think most of these articles meet the requirements for notability. Their source is old enough to be Public domain and thus not a copyright issue. The articles would benefit from copyediting. Adding biographies on notable historical Chinese people will help wikipedia with its desire to avoid a "western" bias; I would not be surprised if a Chinese language wikipedia (maybe Mandarin) doesn't already have articles on these folks. Hope this helps. Rosiestep (talk) 23:52, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi all. What Rosie says is correct - the subjects meet general notability guidelines and the materials used as sources pre-1923 are public domain, so the editor can do what they desire with those sources :) Sarah (talk) 00:04, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * all - I sometime need a good whack to reorient my perspective. DocTree (talk) 01:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Nominating an article for speedy deletion
I have nominated FYICODE for speedy deletion. All I have to do is include the tag, right? No need to inform admins elsewhere? <font color="#669900">ʝungle jill  05:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi again Jill :) Just be sure to leave the following template on the creators talk page:
 * FYICODE ~
 * ...and you should be good to go! Sarah (talk) 05:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Junglejill, if you want to tag articles for speedy deletion, you can use Twinkle. With Twinkle, you can also revert vandalism and welcome/warn members. Hope this helps! --   Luke      (Talk)   21:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Tell me some thing about lists
Hi all! So I came across a BBC article about Zildjian and I thought it was cool that it was both a family owned and run by women. (No offense to men at all, I think it's still a statistically unbalanced ratio.) I tried to find info or a list on women owned businesses, thinking it has to be around here somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Then I went to look into lists and categories and I was completely overwhelmed. Is there such a list? Can we make one? Is there a reason not to? heather walls (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey Heather! I think I can help you with the idea of a category.  If a category was created it would probably be Category:Female owned companies and would be a subcategory of Category:Women in business and probably Category:Companies.  Before you did that, I would seek consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  21:26, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting question. I don't think any such list exists. We do have List of Jews in sports; I think any problems that might be associated with your idea would've applied to that as well, and since it's been a long-standing article, I think yours would be a safe bet. <font face="Century Gothic" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;"> Equazcion ( talk )  21:28, 9 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * - Howdy, heather. We do have an article on women entrepreneurs, but no such list. If you'd like to make one, then Be bold! and make one. Head over to the draft creation area at the Article wizard and get started. See you soon! --Nathan2055talk 21:31, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The category is a good idea but I think a list would fall foul of Wikipedia not being a directory, notwithstanding other stuff existing.--Charles (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Interesting. That page is only 8 days old and I would argue not very well written. Maybe I'll work on that, too. Thanks!! heather walls (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I think a general list of companies owned or started by women would not meet the standards of significance for inclusion, but a list of the largest or most notable of such corporations would be appropriate for a section in Female entrepreneur. If there are enough encyclopedia-worthy companies like that, you could make a separate list article. In other words, if there is an article for a female-owned-company, or should be, it is notable enough to include in a list. <font color="#0044FF">Obotlig <font color="#000000">☣ <font color="#008844">interrogate 01:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Advice on Sports club entries - synchronised swimming.
Hi,

I've asked this already on the main help page but asking here as well in case anyone in the teahouse is knowledgeable about sports clubs.

I am trying to get a sports club (synchronised swimming club) onto wikipedia and we keep getting rejected. We have external references to the club, internal wiki entries that mention us, notable Olympic swimmers listed, our British Championship results, TV show appearances but still we get rejected.

There currently is no synchronised club on wikipedia and only one page describing the sport which is dated - which is sad considering in the Olympics the sport is a sell out and will be performed in front of 17000 people. I am trying to bring this womens sport into wikipedia as it is sadly lacking with nothing regarding how it is run in the UK or the rest of the world where special schools have been created dedicated to the sport.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/City of Leeds Synchronised Swimming Club

Synchroleeds (talk) 12:32, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Synchroleeds, hi and welcome to the Teahouse. Notability in Wikipedia term means has the organisation received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources?  Significant means not trivial, so mentions in newspapers etc have to be primarily about the organisation, so a newspaper report about an event organised by the club or reports of the clubs performance in championships would be acceptable, a newspaper listing saying that an event is going to take pace would not be acceptable.  Reliable secondary sources means the source of the information can be "trusted" e.g. not a personal blog and is independent of the club e.g. not based on press releases. So really what you want is media coverage, either print or electronic that  says something about the club and what it does.  Looking at your draft you don't currently have this, you've got a lot of references to say the club exists, which is fine for establishing that fact but really there isn't anything significantly reported about the club. The best you have is some fairly innocuous publicity stuff but that doesn't tell the reader anything about the club.  What is wanted is more about what the club has achieved or what has it done for British synchronised swimming.
 * I suspect from your username that you are involved with the club? If so can I suggest that you read the guidelines on conflict of interest and make sure that what you write is neutral and non-promotional.  When you are passionate about something it's very easy (almost natural) to become partisan about it and to try and promote it rather than report about it. NtheP (talk) 13:26, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * In fact, if your purpose here is "Trying to get a sports club into Wikipedia" you are probably in the wrong place, especially if you are associated with the club. Wikipedia is only interested topics that enough other people have already written about (in newspapers, magazines, books): if a club is at the stage of trying to get noticed by the media, then it is not (yet) suitable for a Wikipedia article: that is what the notability criterion is about. You say that the existing article synchronized swimming is dated: how about working to improve that, rather than trying to promote your club? --ColinFine (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, yes I am the secretary of the club and tried to make it impartial - but I know that's difficult to do. I'm not trying to promote the club but really trying to get Synchro on the wiki. There are an abundance of speed Swimming Clubs, so why not synchro, especially if we have such a radical setup. What I may do is get an independent writer involved. There is a lot to sport that the general public would not know about, such as the training techniques, underwater mirrors and wave motion detectors to improve technique and as you say, maybe I should be looking at this from a different angle and improving the page thats already there - which would hopefully create more interest that way and then the need for our club page may be realised. Anyway, thanks for the advice, its becoming a lot clearer now. Its very chicken and egg this, because I want to write about the club on wiki to tell them what a different setup we have, and how we are approaching the sport from a different and new approach but to do that, I need someone else to have done it first, and they are not going to do that unless they read about it on this wiki. We've had loads of magazine articles, but none have been online and our results were in the Yorkshire Evening Post, but they are not online either. Thanks once again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synchroleeds (talk • contribs) 13:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi there SyncroLeeds nice to meet you. I take a mug of builders with 6 lumps. Pull up a chair!

So you have a conflict of interest? Hmmm - it's an issue but one that can be addressed and worked through. I have had a look at the page you have put together and I can detect the Loyal Club Secretary beavering away - pushing web content - and struggling under the burden of too little time and money .... and still trying to figure out that darned technology at 3 in the morning! Am I right?

In Wiki Land we don't do web pages. We do verifiable information. A web page and a wiki page may look similar on the screen, but they do have a number of differences. I was looking at the section you have called "Publicity" and you have written " as featured" and then put in a link to the Huddersfield Examiner and then the BBC One Show Wikipedia Pages. Now that works if you are doing websites, but here we do Encyclopedia and it's not the same thing. So if you can find me the web-pages from the Huddersfield Examiner, and That BBC One show web page, we can show you how to do the Encyclopedia thing. In Wiki Land you need to tell us the date, who wrote it or said it ... so that anyone can literally go and check it and make sure it's true. You see the difference?

You find those two references and we can work at it from there. Also you mentioned some mags that don't seem to appear on the net. Now I know that "Syncro News" or "Swimming With Sharks Quarterly" - what ever - may not have a big readership, but they can still be valid sources - they just need to be cited the right way. So do think, and pull out any magazine articles you have copies of - and do ask the team members if any of the mums have been doing a scrapbook and keeping news paper clippings. You might be surprised what you find! P^)

I have to warn you - it can be a bit frustrating at the start dealing with Wiki Land ways and working out what does and does not fit. So do watch the biscuits to go with your tea. I used to be 10 stone and now I'm 16+. I'm working on it, but that's what comes from jumping in the deep end - a bit like you have! P^) <font style="background:#000000;color:#FFFFFF">Media-Hound 'D 3rd P^) (talk)  14:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, Synchroleeds. welcome to Teahouse! As a frequent user, I can say I think you'll like it here. I'm jumping in to clear up one point you mentioned -- although Wikipediea likes online references, feel free to use newspapers, magazines, and books that aren't online, too. Sometimes all your sources may be offline, other times there might be a mix. Just cite them like you would if you were writing a research report, so anyone who wants to follow up will have all the info they need to track it down. But don't leave them out just because they aren't online, too. And please do improve the general article if you can. People will be looking it up soon to find out more about the sport! (Please excuse any typos. I've got to go find my glasses...) Tlqk56 (talk) 16:27, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi all, thanks for the advice, it's really comforting to know there is help out there and I think I get more of a feeling for what needs to be done. Regarding the references, the Huddersfield Examiner one is correct so if you click on that it goes to a reference of the club being on the One Show. The BBC unfortunately have not uploaded the item to the one show site. let me drop them a note asking for a link to the video and for a write up of the event that was aired. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synchroleeds (talk • contribs) 18:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * @Synchroleeds If there are few examples of existing articles to match it, you probably need at least five newspaper stories to demonstrate notability, or provide some evidence that high level swimmers have been involved with the club. For example, in athletics and swimming articles, coaches are notable if one of the people they have coached has won a a major international championship or an Olympic medal.  This might be one of the easiest routes to try to get notability.  If you need more help, please drop a message on my talk page as I write more about sports (and writing about sport COI) than I would thought I would ever know. :) --LauraHale (talk) 21:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Third Opinion request
Dear All,

When I tried to make my first contribution by adding a two-line update to an article, providing valid references, my edit was reverted promptly and soon I was accused of edit-warring, refspam, being against Wikipedia rules, I was inundated with Wikipedia jargon and generally I was bullied and talked down by a handful of deletionists. I now seek impartial third opinion on Talk:Necrophobia posted under Active Disagreements in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion. If sby would like to voice a third opinion, thanks in advance.

Btw, when I made that contribution I was not logged in. Is there any way to cover the IP address already registered with my current username after having logged in? I am a bit worried about what I read here about the possibility of IT attacks.

Thanks

H tan H epi tas (talk) 00:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, H tan! There is no way to change the association of an edit, but really, you don't have to worry too much about it. The things I was talking about in terms of IP addresses were worst-case scenarios; geolocation based on IP address alone is usually very inaccurate.  It's worth it to double-check whether you're logged in or not before editing, but if you forget, it's not that big a deal!
 * As for your third opinion request, I volunteer quite a bit at the the 3O board, but I generally dislike taking more than one at a time, and I have one outstanding at the moment. Just be patient; there aren't all that many of us there, so it could take a while for us to get around to you, but we'll probably get there eventually.  Thanks! Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 05:59, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for all the info! --H tan H epi tas (talk) 16:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Need help with an article about a current event
Yo Soy 132, the crown jewel in my contributions (lolz) is a current event with lots of editors stopping by to add info and usually not coming back. It doesn't help that those with the most useful info are usually non-native English speakers. I seem to be the only one concerned with keeping it up to Wikistandard. Is there any way to ask for help with it? Specifically, I need help solving the references issue (they are getting mixed up), because after putting so much work into fixing other people's contributions, I need a break from the article. Another editor to monitor additions is needed. A bit of help from a proper Wikifier would also be good. What's an effective way of finding editors who can get involved with these issues? <font color="#669900">ʝungle jill  03:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Junglejill, I can certainly give you some assistance on the article. Ryan Vesey Review me!  03:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Asking in appropiate wikiprojects is a good way to contact interested editors. In this case, ask on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mexico and/or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics. Stuartyeates (talk) 03:48, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've left messages on the project pages. <font color="#669900">ʝungle jill  04:06, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Can someone check this for me?
Well, I'm either losing my marbles or my computer has just had it. I just finished adding some info and an image to this page: Cedric the Forester. I thought everything was great till I noticed that big red message at the bottom of the page: Cite error: There are tags on this page, but the references will not show without a template or a tag; see the help page. But that notation IS there, and the references ARE showing up. I even tried removing and redoing and changing the form and location, and going away and coming back -- but that red notice won't go away. What in the world did I do now? (Head in hands.) (It's happening to my sandbox, too. So maybe it's my computer.) Thanks.
 * Preceding question added by Tlqk, my signature appeared when I added nowiki to the ref tags. Hi Tlqk! The issue occured because reflist only affects references that are above it.  Since you used the RefToolbar to add the external links, it added ref tags.  I removed those tags and fixed the problem. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  22:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

So I should manually enter the refs for External links because it gives the reflist a headache otherwise? LOL Thanks so much, I really thought I was going crazy. But it's not the first time, and won't be the last. I sure hated to save it and leave it like that, though. Tlqk56 (talk) 22:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You could use cite web, just remove the tags afterwards. Ryan Vesey Review me!  22:49, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, I thought I had, but obviously not. Thanks for figuring it out. Tlqk56 (talk) 01:20, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Criteria for a band to be considered "notable" enough
Hi, I recently submitted a new article about a band from Austin, TX, called Wild Child. The article was declined because "the submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources." I've read the list of criteria on the "Notability (music)" page, and though this band hasn't won any major awards or placed on national radio charts yet, I believe that it still meets notability requirements, per criterion #1 (full text pasted down below). Wild Child's album has been reviewed favorably by some of the biggest music outlets around, which seems to me to be enough to fit the bill here.

Here's the crux of my question: Was my submission declined because I'm mistaken about the notability requirements, or simply because I failed to quote enough neutral press clips?

The rejected submission is here: Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Wild_Child

Thank you, Evan


 * Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1] This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries[note 2] except for the following:
 * Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.[note 3]
 * Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories.
 * Articles in a school or university newspaper (or similar) would generally be considered trivial but should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Majornation (talk) 19:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello Evan. Majornation is quoting a rather hard to follow Wikipedia guideline (the details of which can be found at Notability.  You'd have probably found this on your own, and if it didn't make sense there, it wouldn't make sense here.  Please let me try to explain it in simpler terms.  Wikipedia cares about getting information correct.  Because Wikipedia cares about getting information correct, it is important that all information that appears in Wikipedia exists in reliable sources; things like respected periodicals, newspapers, magazines, books, etc.  Any information that appears in Wikipedia should have first appeared in those sorts of reliable sources.  If something or someone, like say a musical act, hasn't been written about extensively in reliable sources, then there isn't any reliable information we can use to verify what is in a Wikipedia article.  If there isn't any trustworthy information about it, then Wikipedia shouldn't have an article about it.  Does that make sense?  -- Jayron  32  19:59, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I got a Tiffany & Co. Vintage Solid metal 18k,Plat.,&sterling fountain pen over 30 years ago.
Want to know if there are pics. of solid precious metal fountain pens by T.&C. & what they are worth? Thanx,Raven75.105.32.39 (talk) 19:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the TeaHouse Raven. I suspect you'll have more luck looking at what they're going for on auction sites, but you could ask at Reference desk/Miscellaneous. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikilinks in persondata?
Is there supposed to be Wikilinks in persondata, i.e. place of birth is Denver Colorado instead of Denver, Colorado? AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, placing square brackets around a word in a persondata template has no effect - because it is not transcluded or showing up anywhere. So it won't link. So generally, don't link.  Rcsprinter  (tell me stuff)  19:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's funny that this should be asked. Please see a discussion I started at Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  21:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh. I never knew if it should be or not. I notice when I'm playing around with DAB solver that sometimes it gives me persondata and I never really know what to do! Sarah (talk) 21:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)