Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 March 26



Template:Adrian Sherwood

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 01:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Adrian Sherwood

WP:NENAN Not enough links to warrant a nav box The Banner talk 13:01, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep - How can this not have enough articles if there are  FIVE  links? Adrian Sherwood founded Pressure Sounds, owns On-U Sound Records, formed Dub Syndicate and recorded Never Trust a Hippy. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The backlink does not count, and you know that, so it makes only four. Besides that, he was only involved in the founding of Pressure Sounds, not one of the founders. This is plain peacock, mr. Jax. The Banner talk 16:17, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

 Reply  - Banner, please pay close attention before you tell me that "The backlink does not count", because NENAN is only an essay, not a policy. There are a total of six links in "Template:Adrian Sherwood":


 * 1) Adrian Sherwood
 * 2) Never Trust a Hippy (Adrian Sherwood album)
 * 3) Dub Syndicate
 * 4) Time Boom X De Devil Dead
 * 5) On-U Sound Records
 * 6) Pressure Sounds

According to the first article which does have references, "Sherwood was co-founder of Carib Gems and Pressure Sounds". Additionally, the articles do not all link to one another, and stubs for Dub Syndicate's albums can easily be created. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:33, 26 March 2013 (UTC) The "related" links don't count for NENAN purposes, and nor does the backlink to the head article, so we actually have only 3 links. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC) As to Singers & Players, they and their works do not belong on this template: Sherwood is not credited on any of their recordings, nor is he mentioned in the head article other than as owner of the record company which they worked with. This is far too tenuous a connection to justify their inclusion, and I see no reason that a direct cross-link to Never Trust a Hippy (Adrian Sherwood album). So I have removed them from the navbox. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC) This just looks like yet another of Jax's tendentious exercises in boosting the link count of a navbox. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I count six as well. It seems to satisfy WP:NENAN and probably WP:NAV. — rybec   20:26, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In fact just three, as it is common practise that the backlink (Adrian Sherwood) and the related links (On-U Sound Records, Pressure Sounds) are not counted to the number of useful links. By the way, Jax, your comment because NENAN is only an essay sounds a bit odd, noticing that you often make stubs to satisfy the "rule" of 5 useful links of WP:NENAN. The Banner talk 00:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Even so, the article about On-U Sound Record does not mention Sherwood at all. And his relation with Pressure Sounds are not backed up by reliable sources. The Banner talk 00:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  I said 6 links, not six "useful links". You forgot to include  Time Boom X De Devil Dead  when you counted four.  I added sourced commentary to three articles about how instrumental Sherwood was to On-U Sound Records & Pressure Sounds.  Assuming NENAN is a policy, this navbox meets the rule of five, given that stubs can be created for Dub Syndicate's many albums.  Assuming NENAN is a guideline (which it is), a navbox can have fewer links so long as it is useful. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NENAN. Only two albums, plus the band Dub Syndicate = 3 links.
 *  Reply  - I changed the group title to "Companies owned by Sherwood" and added Singers & Players (a reggae collective made up of vocalists and musicians associated with Adrian Sherwood's On-U Sound Records), so we are now at 10 articles. Also, I have not been given an answer to why discography/song/award pages can be split out, but albums can not.  I don't believe that these pages are notable by themselves.  Additionally, I think that if track listings were created for all of the albums listed, that Dub Syndicate's article could get well over 60-100 kB. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. Jax, your long-standing refusal to pay understand the notability guidelines has wasted a lot of the time of other editors. Read WP:N for an overview, and pay particular attention to WP:GNG. Then go read Notability.
 *  Reply  - Singers & Players is a reggae collective made up of vocalists and musicians associated with Adrian Sherwood's On-U Sound Records. For this reason, I feel that this can be included in the navbox, because the group consists of various artists of OSR with no consistent lineup, and is largely based on the record label. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, come on. Stop adding nonsense. The fact that Sherwood owned a company, does not make the artists contracted to his company related to him personally. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 17:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec)Reply. The more loosely-connected the items, the less useful the navbox. Adding S&P to this navbox is taking a set of "stuff done by AS" and tacking onto another set of "stuff done by a group of people who worked a company owned by AS". There are two degrees of separation in there, and is no reason to presume that a reader of Never Trust a Hippy is going to want to so desperately keen to read about such loosely-connected material.
 * Note. Jax is not content with WP:POINTily creating articles on non-notable bands, and arguing about notability without apparently having read the guidelines. He has now tried to fork this discussion, by opening up a separate discussion at Template talk:Adrian Sherwood on the inclusion of S&P in this navbox, even tho that is already being discussed here. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Apologies for violating WP:MULTI, I started the discussion at the navbox talk page per WP:BRD, but I have redirected the matter to this location. I have restructured the navbox on the basis that Adrian founded On-U Sound Records, and that S&P "is a reggae collective made up of vocalists and musicians associated with Adrian Sherwood's On-U Sound Records".  This is the same tiered structure that is used for conglomerate corporations that have companies inside of companies, or albums and its songs. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  A navbox for a company would not include links to articles about the non-compnay career of its founder; and this is not a navbox about a company, it is a navbox about an artist and businessman. I reverted your reinstatement of this off-topic material in the navbox. Per WP:BRD, you added it, were reverted, and two editors have opposed your addition; so stop reinserting it. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - My proposal was the following: --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, mr. Jax, but this is coming close to vandalism. Please, stop with this. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - At the risk of being accused of SPAM, I am going to apologize for placing an entire navbox within the TfD and for reinserting S&P. Thank goes to BHG for fixing the issue to facilitate discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * delete, not enough core links. Frietjes (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Goon Moon
<div class="boilerplate vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk) 01:16, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Goon Moon

WP:NENAN Two band members, two albums. That does not warrant a nav box as it can be solved by normal wikilinking <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 11:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep  - Navbox has two musicians, three albums and one ensemble article. This is part of another TfD for Jeordie White. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Yet another superfluous navbox from User:Jax 0677. Per WP:NENAN, we don't need a navbox for less than 5 albums; in this case there are only two band members and two albums, which can be easily connected by normal wikilinking. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Six articles in the navbox in total. Moving between articles in one click is exactly what a navbox is for. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. It's six only if you include the "related" links, which don't count towards the WP:NENAN total. Without them, there are only 4 links, and that doesn't need a navbox. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - NENAN is an essay, not policy. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Really two navboxes in one. I would also like to point out that Jax 0677's friend WP:ANOEP, which he likes to call upon in these discussions, is no more a policy than WP:NENAN. As the encyclopedia grows we should see fewer conflicts between NENAN and ANOEP; however I think some kind of RFC will eventually be needed to establish firm consensus and resolve this issue. — This, that and the other (talk) 06:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * delete, not enough core links. Frietjes (talk) 00:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Shadow Project
<div class="boilerplate vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk) 01:19, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Shadow Project

WP:NENAN Band with several albums, but no one has an article. This can be solved with normal wikilinking <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 11:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep  - Navbox has four musicians and one band, totalling five articles, which do not all link to one another. Stub articles for the albums can easily be created.  This is part of another TfD for Rozz Williams.  --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:59, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

And note the Tendentious editing by the template's creator: after this template was noninated for deletion, User:Jax 0677 created 4 stubs on this band's non-notable albums:, , ,. If Jax doesn't stop this disruption, the next step will be sanctions. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. The band members are all linked through the head article on the band; we don't need a navbox to link them together.
 *  Reply  - Per this discussion, the albums and its details should (at a minimum) be merged LOSSLESSLY into Shadow Project. Also, WP:BRD.  Because Rozz Williams' album articles went to AfD, people are adding more referenced material to some of the articles. Neither "PE" nor Shadow Project (album)  are being contested, so the navbox has 7 links. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:00, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. It is a pity that Jax yet again misrepresents Wikipedia talk:Notability (music). There is no requirement to merge, let alone to merge losslessly. The guidance at Notability (music) remains that info on non-notable topics "may be included in other ways in Wikipedia, provided that certain conditions are met". There is definitely no requirements to splat a tracklist into the article on a band. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:29, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - There is plenty of space in the article for track listings and album details. Therefore, now that it is on Wikipedia and properly sourced, it should not be removed so long as the artist or ensemble is notable.   If the article becomes too large, then this falls under a size split. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. If you want to add the tracklists to the artists's bio, then do so, and see whether there is a consensus to retain that much detail on non-notable albums. But stop disrupting Wikipedia by creating pointless stubs on non-notable albums just to increase the link count on a pointless navbox. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin. All but one of the album titles redirects to the band's article, so I have removed those links from the navbox. The remaining album article is at being discussed at Articles for deletion/In Tuned Out, where no editor supports its retention. That leaves a navbox with links to 4 band members, which falls short of the WP:NENAN minimum of 5 links. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - NENAN is an essay, not a policy. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. The threshold of 5 widely accepted at TFD as a minimum. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - The threshold of 5 is widely accepted, but is not the be all end all. Template:War from a Harlots Mouth that you nominated and Template:Sonny Throckmorton were kept with four definitive articles each. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * delete, not enough core links. Frietjes (talk) 00:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.