Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 March 4



Template:MahamayaNagar-geo-stub

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was Keep and histmerge with Hathras-geo-stub. Ruslik_ Zero 17:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * MahamayaNagar-geo-stub

This template is not required any more as the district specific geo-stub has been moved to Hathras-geo-stub GDibyendu (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


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Template:Letter-spacing

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The result of the discussion was Delete. Ruslik_ Zero 17:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Letter-spacing

Purely presentational template intended for Yet Another means of emphasising bits of random text. The one articlespace use (in a hatnote on charge conservation) neatly demonstrates both its intended use and why that's not a good idea. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Continue, please. Why this idea is −good? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. I agree that the use of this template in the hatnote at charge conservation is totally unnecessary, but it is a brand new template, so give its maker a chance to demonstrate proper application of it somewhere. -- P 1 9 9 ✉ 15:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no general utility to such a template. Overriding letter spacing is such a rarely-used tweak that it should be built into any particular cases that require it. As a general tool it's only ever going to be misused for nonstandard emphasis. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * delete or userfy for further discussion. it appears this is non-standard, and has not been thoroughly discussed.  if there is a desire to deploy this more broadly, that can certainly happen, but this should be discussed more broadly first. Frietjes (talk) 15:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What means “non-standard”? Which browsers have problems with it? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 22:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Lynx, ELinks, JAWS, ... Frietjes (talk) 15:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * These browsers also have problems with italic. Let’s delete &apos;&apos; from the engine, indeed. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Userfy or delete - Uses for this may be found in future discussion, but it doesn't have a standard usage, yet. -PC-XT+ 11:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Van Canto

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was Delete. Ruslik_ Zero 18:54, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Van Canto

WP:NENAN not enough relevant links to warrant a nav box The Banner talk 12:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep (or rename navbox to Template:­Bastian Emig)  - ­Bastian Emig is a member of both van Canto and In Legend, so as long as both are notable, Emig is notable enough to have his own article. This would bring the total number of van Canto articles up to 5, not counting their upcoming album.  Additionally, Emig makes ­In Legend related to van Canto, the former of which does not have its own template.  Finally, the four van Canto albums do not all link to one another without the navbox. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So what? It should be the article Van Canto that would link the different albums. Nav boxes are not supposed to save lazy readers one or two clicks, as is told you many times before. And otherwise, you could fix it by linking in the album-articles. The Banner talk 19:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Please see Templates_for_discussion/Log/2012_June_9, which says:


 *  "The whole purpose of a navbox is to be inserted in all the related articles to allow you to navigate between them. A list just does not allow you to come and go and jump between them. This is exactly what a navbox is for." 


 * Additionally, some of the articles are so long that it would be difficult to find the links within the article anyway. --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You are kidding, I hope? The Banner talk</i> 23:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Long is a relative term, and with the two bands combined, it meets NENAN rule of five. With Emig, the articles regarding Van Canto alone will also meet the rule of five. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The rule of five doesn't exist. I would like to remind everyone that not everything needs a navbox is a user essay, not policy. Yes, it's well respected, and yes, it's often a good idea to follow it, but it should never be the only reason to delete. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

 Reply  - Thank you Ego White Tray! --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:10, 5 March 2013 (UTC) Most of the space is taken up with an unlinked list of band members (which just adds clutter), and only one of them is linked. The links ti related material don't justify the existence of the navbox, so we we are left with 5 links, 4 of which are to non-notable albums which I have just sent to AFD (1, 2, 3, 4). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. This looks like an attempt to group together several loosely-related topics in order to create a navbox. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Navbox now has 5 links directly related to van Canto in addition to the parent article and the three articles about In Legend. Given the increased connectivity that the navbox provides between the four albums and Bastian Emig, the navbox should remain. --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. The current version looks like an attempt to add more links to create a navbox with a high enough link count, rather than a useful navigational tool.
 * And what to think of Bastian Emig, a one-liner? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 09:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the sub-stub article on the non-notable Bastian Emig should be deleted. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:30, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

As to Bastian Emig, you appear to have created that 1-line stub article solely to bulk out the template. So far as I can see, Bastian Emig is non-notable. We don't need a template for a non-notable musician. And please stop the thankyou-spam. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:28, 9 March 2013 (UTC) The question of where to redirect (or whether to redirect at all) is a secondary question. The fact is that he is non-notable, and there is nothing to say abut him other than that he played in two bands. That factoid can be conveyed in each article in less than a dozen words. As to your "here it says" comment ... was that a sneaky attempt at misrepresenting the result of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (music), or did you just not bother to read the closing statement? Whichever it it was, Jax has quoted from the closing admin's summary of the discussion rather than from the conclusion, which rejected any blanket approval of that point: "that consensus is to Keep current wording and merge or redirect album articles that only contain an infobox and a tracklist. Given the comments above, such merges should be done in compliance with current policies and guidelines, and when such information is considered notable (or encyclopedic) enough to be included". -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:40, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - So what if Bastian Emig is a "one-liner"? He is still a member of two notable bands, we discussed this at the AfD for Kochmit.  Whether to include musicians without articles was discussed here and the number of albums with full track listings and album info was discussed here.  Also, are we going to now start a mass deletion campaign of all non-notable albums? --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Sometimes you have great ideas, Jax! <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 00:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Lead the way Banner! --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * keep, it has enough links (although the continuous "thank you" spam is annoying). Frietjes (talk) 15:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  -  Assuming  that we were to delete three of the albums that have not yet been improved, there would still exist articles for Emig, one van Canto album, In Legend, and In Legend's two albums. Why couldn't the template  at a minimum  be renamed to "Bastian Emig"?  Having all of the track listings in "van Canto" will likely clutter the article. --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:44, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If an article would be overwhelmed by listing all the tracks on non-notable albums, the solution is simple: don't list all the tracks.
 *  Reply  - Read WP:BAND bullet 6, which says "is a musician who has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles". It does not matter why I created the article.  If we were to redirect Bastian Emig to van Canto, how would we know he is a part of In Legend?  If we were to redirect Bastian Emig to In Legend, how would we know he is a part of van Canto?  Here it says "Users have expressed interest in keeping the tracklists somewhere in Wikipedia".  Implied in this is keeping the information about the album, which is what an encyclopedia should do.  Lastly, how are my comments SPAM if they are not trying to sell something?  Thank you! --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. Jax, spam is not only about selling; it's also repeated and unwanted communication. Please stop spamming.
 *  Reply  -
 * Wiktionary defines SPAM as:
 * 1. A collection of unsolicited bulk electronic messages
 * 2. Any undesired electronic content automatically generated for commercial purposes
 * 3. An unsolicited electronic message sent in bulk, usually by email or newsgroups
 * I can't stop spamming if I did not spam in the first place.

If you think that track listings are encyclopedic and includable in the article on the band, then argue that case on the article's talk page. But as concluded in the discussion you linked to, that's no reason to keep an article on a non-notable album. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Emig is a member of two notable bands. On disambiguation pages, such as Graziadei, the rules state that only one link is permitted per line.  If that is the case, then it would be a difficult decision to determine to which band Billy Graziadei should redirect.  This is exactly why Lamagna and Kochmit have articles.  Keeping the article about Emig allows people to quickly know that he is a member of VC and IL.  I was not trying to be sneaky at all, just quoting discussions.  I would think that track listings of albums are encyclopedic and includable. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Jax, if we keep one-line pseudo "articles" on people just because they are mentioned in two other pages, we might as well delete WP:GNG.

 Reply  - I disagree with the first statement, per WP:BLP1E. I am trying to avoid a merge followed by a subsequent size or content split. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. BLP1E is nothing to do with this. If there is a subsequent content split, it cannot create an article on someone non-notable; deal with that if and when the problem arises. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:27, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - IMHO, "toss a coin" is not a good solution to determine to which band a musician redirects if both bands are equally notable. In this case, the musician's article acts as a "disambiguation page" of sorts.  IMHO, it is better, when someone types in Hughell or Pitruzzella that it shows all of the bands that the person has been a part of, instead of just saying that the musician does not have any page at all, and requiring the reader to sift through search results.  That is what an encyclopedia is all about. If it is properly sourced that the musician belongs to the notable bands in question, then the page should remain.  If one or zero of the bands are notable, then the musician might not warrant a page. --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:59, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply. Toss a coin works fine for issues like this. We don't need to provide a perfect navigational path for every non-notable person who ever existed, and any attempt to do so would massively clutter Wikipedia with pseudo-articles on non-notable topics. What we can do instead is use the Wiki's facility for easy internal links to cross-link between pages so that each of the band articles can cross-link to he other bands, like this:
 * Drummer
 * Somerperson's name (formerly with someother band)
 * There is no need create a walled garden of pseudo-articles on non-notable topics, nor to create navigational templates to tie all this cruft together. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:45, 10 March 2013 (UTC)


 * delete if either of the pending album AfDs close as merge or delete. Frietjes (talk) 15:24, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - If the albums go away, there are still a musician, two albums and one band with articles which can be linked by the navbox. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are you so desperately creating nav boxes? This can just be solved by normal wikilinking. For example with a sentence as: Musician1, as member of Band1, worked and played on the albums Album1 en Album3. See, not so difficult. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 21:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Need to disposition TfD  - If normal wikilinking is so easy, The Banner should wikilink all of the articles. Also, this TfD has been open for close to three weeks now with NO disposition nor relist. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fix it yourself, rather than creating this forest of un-needed navboxes and disruptively resisting their removal. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin. The template links to four albums and one band member. All have been taken to AFD:
 *  A Storm to Come  (AFD, closed as merge)
 * Hero (van Canto album) (AFD, closed as merge)
 *  Tribe of Force  (AFD, closed as merge)
 * Break the Silence (van Canto album) (AFD, closed as keep)
 * Bastian Emig (AFD, closed as redirect)
 * As nominated, the template fell below the 5-album minimum recommended by WP:NENAN. It is now down to 3, and may fall further. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:56, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

With Mario Goossens, you created a pointless navbox, reverted the 6-=yo redirect of the article without adding any substantive content to justify a standalone page, then again reverted the further redirection of the page ... and now it is at Articles for deletion/Mario Goossens. This too is a waste of other editor's time and energy; it's deliberate disruption, and you'd b well-advised to stop before you face sanctions. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:39, 25 March 2013 (UTC) As I have noted repeatedly, redirection is not a problem. If a musician is associated with two bands, simply redirect to whichever band he is most closely associated with. If he's equal;ly closely associated with both, then redirect to either and cross-link. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - "Tesco Vee" and "Danny Vaughn" don't appear to be completely unneeded, do they? And whatever do you mean "disruptively resisting  their removal"? --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:02, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean spinning out endless debate on the crapflood (as you have done here, for example by playing dicdef games) and by WP:POINTily creating articles whose only purpose is to increase the link count on a navbox, such as Voyeur (War from a Harlots Mouth album), which comes nowhere near WP:GNG, and where you insisted on wasting the time of other editors by contesting a PROD. As a result, it is now at AFD, which requires more time from more editors.
 *  Reply  - There is no proof that Mario Goossens is pointy, and the problem we run into is "to which ensemble do we redirect a member of two or more notable bands"? We have this issue with Bastian Emig.  "Kevin Sharp (heavy metal music singer)" was deleted in part because the title was parenthetical.  "Voyeur (War from a Harlots Mouth album)" should be MERGED at a minimum anyway, not deleted outright. --Jax 0677 (talk) 09:10, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Reply For the pointiness, see WP:DUCK. This one quacks.
 * Another note to closing admin. 4 of the pages linked through this navbox have now been merged or redirected at AFD. There is mow only one album to link to, and we don't need a navbox for one link. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

 Reply  - Three albums and two bands which do not all link to one another makes a navbox quite useful me thinks. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


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Template:Danny Vaughn
<div class="boilerplate vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
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The result of the discussion was Rename to Template:Vaughn (band). Ruslik_ Zero 17:39, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Danny Vaughn

WP:NENAN not enough relevant links to warrant a nav box <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 12:14, 4 March 2013 (UTC)  Reply  - Thank you Ego White Tray! --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep (or rename to "Template:Vaughn")  - Vaughn (band) has two notable musicians with articles, and three albums, in addition to Danny Vaughn being part of Tyketto. --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How many times do you need to get told that backlinks and "related items" don't count for the "relevant links count"? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - I am perfectly aware of what you say that  'backlinks and "related items" don't count for the "relevant links count"' . That being said, why couldn't the template be renamed to "Template:Vaughn" if there are two musicians and three albums?  I would just as soon have one template for Vaughn (band) and Danny Vaughn, since there are 6 related articles, and Tyketto does not have a navbox. --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Rename to "Template:Vaughn (band)" - I agree with Jax, except that Vaughn is a common name and a template called Vaughn should be reserved for the name. Also, the article has the (band) in its title. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * rename Frietjes (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
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Template:Tesco Vee
<div class="boilerplate vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
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The result of the discussion was Keep. Ruslik_ Zero 17:30, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Tesco Vee

WP:NENAN, not enough relevant links to warrant a nav box <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 12:14, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Keep (or rename to "Template:The Meatmen")  - The Meatmen have four notable musicians (Todd Swalla, Tesco Vee, Brian Baker (musician) and Lyle Preslar) along with one album article. Touch and Go Records has two notable employees (Tesco Vee and Corey Rusk) as well as two notable articles.  Tesco was also a member of Blight (band). --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


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Template:Venomous Concept
<div class="boilerplate vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk) 03:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Venomous Concept

WP:NENAN With just one album and three linked musicians, this nav box serves no purpose. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 12:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: While I don't object to the deletion, for accuracy's sake there is actually 2 albums listed. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 17:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank to your intervention, MrMoustacheMM. But it is a clear indication of the rather common sloppy work of J. that you can add links so easily. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 *  Keep  - Venomous Concept has four notable musicians and two album articles. As of now, the articles do not all link to one another without the navbox. --Jax 0677 (talk) 19:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a question, why do you make so many dodgy or/and incomplete templates when there are so many complaints about them? This is another example of an incomplete template that you only complete after a nomination. Please, Jax, improve your standards before someone goes after a topic ban for you. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 23:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

 Reply  -
 * 1) See this page, as TfD is not the forum for this matter.
 * 2) This navbox STARTED with 7 links, and STILL has the SAME 7 links.  Only three edits have been made to the template thus far, one by me, one by Victor Lopes and one by you, so this CAN NOT be "another example of an incomplete template that [I] only complete after a nomination".  Care to explain how I can change this navbox after the fact if I created it and only made ONE edit to it?
 * 3) As of late, my navboxes have been on every page that is linked in it except some related articles.  They have, and continue to move toward the path of connectivity with few to no disambiguation pages. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: User:The Banner, I have checked the history of this template, and User:Jax 0677 has only made one edit (the initial creation of this template). This edit was made prior to you starting this TfD. I also made an edit to the template (to add piped links to two wikilinks). No edits have been made to it after this template was nominated here. Please ensure that you are not making "dodgy" nominations with incorrect information (such as the number of albums contained, or when and how many edits have been made). MrMoustacheMM (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * With only two albums there is no need for a nav box. This can be solved by normal wikilinking. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 22:55, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

 Reply  - Thank you Ego White Tray and MrMoustacheMM! --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:20, 5 March 2013 (UTC)  Reply  - --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Templates for discussion is not an exercise in counting. The number 5 has apparently become a magic number with mystical powers as listed in the great holy work WP:NENAN. It's not, this template is useful regardless of its magic number. Ego White Tray (talk) 13:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * keep, has enough links (although all the "thank you" spam is annoying). Frietjes (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Banner, if the problem can be solved by wikilinking the articles, WP:SOFIXIT!!!
 * 2) Banner, what proof do you have that this is "an incomplete template that [I] only complete after a nomination"?
 * 3) Lastly, how are my comments SPAM if they are not trying to sell something? Thank you!
 * Note to closing admin: the template's current version contains 8 links. Five of those linked pages are at AFD, including the head article. (See 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:24, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete The album articles link to one another and each has a personnel section to link to the musicians who performed on each one. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 16:49, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - Retroactive Abortion (album) does not link to Danny Lilker, and Poisoned Apple does not link to Buzz Osborne. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * When those musicians are not involved in those albums, there is no need to link them. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:12, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * delete, if either this or this close as merge or delete. Frietjes (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 *  Reply  - If the albums go away, there are still four musicians with articles which can be linked by the navbox. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note. That the first of Frietjes 2 linked discusions was Articles for deletion/Poisoned Apple, which closed as merge. The second one (Articles for deletion/Retroactive Abortion (album)) is still open, and no editors have supported keeping it. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: I now support deleting this, as all the included links are already available on Venomous Concept, so this template is redundant. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.