Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 30



Template:Hindi

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was Delete Bgwhite (talk) 07:06, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hindi

No uses. Link FAs are now hanled by Wikidata. Magioladitis (talk) 17:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete as redundant per nom.  George Edward C –  Talk  –  Contributions  08:30, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
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Template:Infobox Australian road

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was to discuss further changes after Luafication (non-admin closure). Overwhelming consensus seems to point to waiting until the template is Luafied before any more changes occur. No real arguments have been made for almost a month, so I'm going ahead and closing this discussion. If further discussion needs to take place after Luafication is complete, it should take place elsewhere, as this discussion was about merging the templates in their current states. T C  N7 JM  03:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Infobox Australian road (612 transclusions)
 * Infobox road (18,289 transclusions)

Propose merging Template:Infobox Australian road with Template:Infobox road.

Documentation describes the Australian template as "a version" of the generic one, with "several additional parameters that are specific for roads in Australia". However the generic template already includes code for Australian roads. We don't need a separate template for one country; much less for just one country out of all those represented in Wikipedia articles. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:22, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose - Firstly, the "documentation" that the nominator refers to is in a "see also" note in Template:Infobox road/doc, not the documentation at Template:Infobox Australian road/doc, which does not describe it as "a version" at all. The two templates are actually very different, although the layout of Infobox Australian road was modified to make it look a bit like Infobox road. Secondly, the code in Infobox road is by no means complete. The issue of whether to use Infobox road or Infobox Australian road was discussed at length only last year by members of the roads and Australian roads projects. That discussion included an RfC. As a result of significant improvements to Infobox Australian road, it was decided by those involved that a switch to Infobox road would not proceed. Unless there has been development at Infobox road since then, that template does not adequately cover Australian roads because Infobox Australian road includes functionality not included in Infobox road. Infobox road is not an all-in-one template. 2,418 articles are forced to use Infobox street, Infobox road small and Infobox road junction while Infobox Australian road includes the functionality of these templates. Merging as suggested by the nominator would result in Australian roads being forced to use four different Infoboxes instead of the one that they use now, which seems quite ridiculous. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 01:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * - that's not quite how it is. Currently most articles use Infobox Australian road, some list-type articles (with multiple roads) use Infobox road small, and even infobox highway system is used. The proposed merging would only add one more, infobox road junction for road junctions, of which there aren't many Australian articles. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no need for Infobox road small as we have that code. Articles really shouldn't be using that at all. We'd still have to find and convert articles to use Infobox street and Infobox road junction. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 03:52, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no consensus to use Infobox Australian road instead of Infobox road small. And why does Infobox street come into this? Infobox road accommodates various road types (freeway, highway, road, street, etc) just like Infobox Australian road. Finding junction articles shouldn't be too difficult, there aren't that many of them. Or, iff there was consensus, Infobox Australian road could be made into a wrapper that substituted either Infobox road or Infobox road junction based on the type parameter (which is getting ahead of ourselves, but it could be done) - Evad37 &#91;talk] 05:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no consensus not to use it either. The discussion stalled and you didn't want to use it. Infobox street is the infobox used for streets. If Infobox road can do streets, why does Infobox street even exist? I don't see the point in turning this infobox into a wrapper - we either keep the template or don't. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 06:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * - yes, and that's not quite the same thing as "Articles really shouldn't be using that at all." I don't know, maybe no one has yet suggested them for merging? Why have that and not infobox freeway or infobox outback track? Again, I don't know - was in place before my time. In any case, Infobox road already has the code to handle the color for streets in Module:Infobox road/color: , and I don't think anyone else has suggested that streets should go to infobox street instead of infobox road. As for the wrapper, that was only to show it is easy to switch some transclusion to Infobox road and others to Infobox road junction based on type, if there were to be consensus to merge and then delete Infobox Australian road. ie, make Infobox Australian road something like


 * Which when substitute in articles would leave the correct type without manually going through, looking for infobox road junction. No suggestion of having a wrapper long term. But again, there would have to be consensus first, this is just to show that such an issue shouldn't be a barrier. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 01:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Much of your comment falls under WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The RfC was 18 months ago; and was inconclusive. As for "functionality not included in Infobox road", this is a merge proposal; so that objection is tantamount to "we should not merge these templates because they are not already merged". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The RfC is entirely relevant. It began because the existing version of the infobox was outdated and there had been a lot of workarounds by editors to enable continued use. At the time there was some justification in abandoning it in favour of Infobox road. As a result of the RfC, the infobox was significantly redeveloped to address concerns and because the reworked infobox suited the Australian project more, the RfC was effectively abandoned. Nevertheless, there was significant discussion by members of the two projects. Your nomination is misleading because it misleads the reader into thinking the documentation for the infobox refers to it as a "version" when it is not at all. That's not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It's also misleading because you say "generic template already includes code for Australian roads" when, in fact, it's only partial code. That's not WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS either. The nomination implies that a merge would be reasonably simple, when the comments of Happy5214 indicate that's unlikely to be the case. Because of this, this is something that really needs to be brought up on the talk pages of the templates, rather than just proceeding to TfD. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 12:16, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * "this is something that really needs to be brought up on the talk pages of the templates" There is absolutely no basis for that assertion. Indeed, when considering a merge of two templates, a discussion on a neutral venue rather then the talk page of one or the other (or splitting over two) is far preferable. This is the designated forum for such discussions, and a prominent pointer to it has been placed on the page for each template, as well as on every article transcluding one of other of them. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:22, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Projects notified  . And here is the link to previous RFC: Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian Roads/RfC:Infobox Road proposal - Evad37 &#91;talk] 02:54, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I suggest adding infobox road junction to this TFD, i.e merging the junctions part of infobox Australian road with infobox road junction - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:09, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but I think that's best dealt with separately. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * How can it be? Infobox Australian road is already used for some junctions. How can we not even discuss how infobox road junction will handle these case if you want to merge (and thereby delete) infobox Australian road? I'm not suggesting a merge of infobox road and infobox road juntcion, but a double merge of infobox Australian road to those templates which would be used instead of it. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 01:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Why, oh why, did you have to dig this back up!? Can we please wait until there's a complete Lua version of Infobox road before trying to merge the Australian counterpart into it? I welcome any input from the Australian editors on what can be added in the rewrite to make a merge more appealing. But please do it on either template's talk page, and don't turn this into an extended discussion on new features to be added to Infobox road. -happy5214 03:15, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed, this should concentrate on a merge based on the current version of Infobox road. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 03:52, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If I have my way, the "current" version of Infobox road will cease to exist by next month. It'll hopefully be replaced by that Lua version in relatively short order. -happy5214 21:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no need to wait; creating a Lua module could be the outcome of this discussion; and those who have objected loudly above could more usefully contribute to making that the best possible solution. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There are a few different scenarios we could implement:
 * Maintain the status quo, with the two infoboxes remaining completely separate.
 * Convert the Australian road articles to Infobox road and delete Infobox Australian road.
 * Separately convert Infobox Australian road to Lua and maintain it as a distinct template.
 * Hybridize Infobox road and Infobox Australian road under the aegis of Infobox road.
 * Similarly, merge Australian-specific features into Infobox road while keeping most Infobox road code intact.
 * Convert Infobox Australian road to a wrapper for Infobox road.
 * Keeping in mind that the best time for any incorporation of Infobox Australian road into the Infobox road codebase is while said codebase is being rewritten, and that such a rewrite is currently in progress, we have a unique opportunity to find a solution that satisfies both sides of the debate.
 * If the decision is made to merge, I need to know what my feature requirements are. What has to stay in a merged template, what can I leave out, and would a wrapper or a completely separate module better achieve those goals than a merged framework? I need to know soon, since my activity will go down starting around mid-January. -happy5214 21:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Nom: "creating a Lua module could be the outcome of this discussion" - this is utter nonsense. WP:INCOMPETENCE. -DePiep (talk) 11:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose as someone who engages with new editors through outreach projects these continual merging of infoboxes are creating monsters so complicated that they are a barrier to participation. IMHO the boxes should be broken down into simpler smaller segments not shoved into a universal one size fits all. Then the very nature of these one size fits all boxes are barriers themselves to improvements and modifications. Gnangarra
 * As someone who also engages, regularly, with new editors through outreach projects; that's a misrepresentation of the true situation. It's perfectly possible to have a blank copy of such a template, with only a subset or parameters (and with some of those pre-populated), in the template documentation or on a project page. This is done and works well elsewhere - see, for example, the documentation of Infobox officeholder, which has 85,141 transclusions, without drama. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Really I've never seen you at any of my workshops or outreach events, so please tell me how am I misrepresenting what I am encountering.... most templates already have a blank copy with mile long documentation even then people are seeking help, or just walking away. Gnangarra 12:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The statis quo will continue to work fine until a Lua module is created. Also, any merging should wait until a Lua module is implemented. The parties can work together on creating a better Lua module separate from this discussion. -  t u coxn \talk 19:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose both are already complicated and even as a semi-experienced editor I've had enough trouble trying to fix article issues just trying to work out how 'Infobox road' is working. Unless 'Infobox road' is made clearer and better documented, including all its sub parts and where to find them (comments above have suggested its work in progress) it just seams like a way to cause problems (that only those with permission can fix). If those working on 'Infobox road' can add full AUS support at some point and things can slowly move over until 'Infobox Australian road' become redundant then good, but to force the issue seams like asking for trouble. KylieTastic (talk) 19:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now. Until a Lua module is created, these infoboxes should remain separate. Once the module is created, it may make sense to merge them.  Dough 48  72  18:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment While my reasons for keeping are separate from the Lua aspect, given that the conversion of Infobox road to Lua is in process, it seems wise to not merge the two at this time as it would disrupt the conversion. When the conversion is complete, any further discussion should be between the Highways and Australian Roads projects, so we can work in a non-pressured environment to achieve the best result for all. TfD is not the place for such a discussion. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 01:57, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * As has been pointed out to you by more than one editor recently, TfD is specifically the place for such discussions. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Those editors have been fairly inexperienced editors who are obvious members of your fan club. As most editors will tell you, merge discussions do not have to take place at TfD. We have talk pages for discussing such things. That should be the first place for all discussions involving changes to templates, just as we use them for articles. You've used template talk pages before, you should know that. When discussing a complicated merge, TfD should definitely not be the first place to go. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 11:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Even if this discussion gets closed as a Merge, it could be a while before it's actually done. It could sit in the Holding cell wiating for someone to do the work for quite a while. -- WOSlinker (talk) 12:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "fairly inexperienced"? That's rather nasty - and untrue - ad hominem against, among others, User:RexxS. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking about RexxS' uncivil comments at WP:ARCA,and I'm sure you knew that. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 13:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I did indeed know that, since his comments addressed to you there - which are worth reading in full - were perfectly civil. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Andy, your comment here "As has been pointed out ..." is where the actual deviation starts. (as a side note, the satement is incorrect, even if you repeat it another 100 times). You clearly do not respond to Aussies post. On top of that, I find Aussies description "fairly inexperienced editors of your fanclub" a to the point description, which is not an ad hominem but a judgement of their editing & commenting contributions. Injecting words like "ad hominen, nasty, untrue", al unspecified and unlinked, is really polluting the discussion, and could constitute the introduction of PA. As for content: I support the contributions by Aussie here, which are relevant (and to which you have not replied a single word). Saying that an RfC is "otherstuff", whether intentionally or by misunderstanding of you, is plain stupid, given that you are not a new editor. -DePiep (talk) 07:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Luafy, which is apparently already being done, so basically oppose any further changes for now —PC-XT+ 03:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep I do not see the reason to delete nation-specific templates. There is no point to doing so. Unification of templates is always necessary, and this is one case when it's not. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now, per Dough4872. I thought the same thing - it may make sense to merge them once the module is created. -- hmich 176 16:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Nuanced comments ahead. As the templates exist at the moment, I would oppose the merger for the moment. However, with the coming updates to, those objections disappear. As has been noted above, this discussion could come to the conclusion that post-Lua-ifcation that a merger should take place, and that could be the closure statement. Were this a simpler modification of one template to add a discrete set of functions, like infobox street and infobox Paris street as nominated elsewhere on this page, that would be the best outcome. However, the pragmatic solution, for now, is to close this discussion with no changes, but in a month or so after lua-ification, I would suggest that the discussion be restarted in an appropriate fashion. That also means that should not be the one to initiate that future discussion.  Imzadi 1979   →   18:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Poppycock. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Your nomination has been polarizing, and this is not the first time you've nominated this action. I think there is sufficient interest to discuss a merger in the future after the Lua-ification is completed, but if you initiate it, your polarizing presence will continue to influence the outcome. In short, let someone else broach the possibility in the future and back away.  Imzadi 1979  →   19:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree it'd be nice for TFD discussions to occur where the issues of unmanageable behemoths, the templates functionality, and the way in which different places use english are addressed beforehand instead of the current practice of barrow push pushing, brow beating, chest thumping, I know better do it my way nominations. Gnangarra 01:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I support the way forward proposed by . Comments such as this are not constructive and have no place in a mature discussion. -  t u coxn \talk 01:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Procedurally oppose per comments above. --Rschen7754 06:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge with the condition that Infobox Australian road is made completely redundant by Infobox road (and Infobox street, Infobox road small and Infobox road junction as suggested by nominator) and all features present in the first but not in the others are moved before actually merging the template(s). Jc86035 (talk • contributions) 11:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The nominator didn't mention Infobox street, Infobox road small or Infobox road junction. I brought those up. He suggested that because a see also note in the Infobox road documentation said that Infobox Australian road was a version of Infobox road, which it isn't, it should be merged. What you are suggesting doesn't make sense. Why would you replace one easy to use template with 4 different templates? That goes against the principles of infobox consolidation in the nominator's essay. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 10:16, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That's no what I said, as anyone can read at the top of this section. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose'. As is explained multiple times here, Luafication first. No need to discuss future situations. The nom could understanding this by withdrawing, but instead keeps stubbornly (to say it nice) pushing a dead parrot. Even worse, nom suggests that "creating a Lua module could be the outcome of this discussion". This is incompetent. -DePiep (talk) 08:06, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It is even worse. has clearly and repeatedly said that they are working on this, has asked to stop it (actually, to not dig up again), and Andy keeps pushing his uninformed unread stubborn idefixe through his backdoor. Enough.
 * Note to any uninvolved admin passing by: please close asap as 'no consensus. Let Happy5214 work as he pleases, without pushing. nom is pushing without responding, soaking up good editors energy. -DePiep (talk) 11:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


 * DePeip. I've been watching this for awhile and almost every comment you make contains a personal attack of some kind. For example, none of us needs to label anyone else as incompetent, (none of us is perfect by a long shot or completely competent on all fronts, so should not be casting stones at anyone else, as a general principle). Do you realize that whatever arguments you make lose their impact and credibility when they exist side by side with personal attacks. (Littleolive oil (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2015 (UTC))


 * Procedurally oppose Per comments above.-- Chamith   (talk)  13:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
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Template:Infobox Paris street

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The result of the discussion was merge. (nac) Alakzi (talk) 23:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Infobox Paris street
 * Infobox street

Propose merging Template:Infobox Paris street with Template:Infobox street.

Merge the overly-specific local template (just 112 transclusions) into the generic one. Chief difference is the arrondissement functionality, which should be replaced with ordinary text parameter values. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:05, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Support—the generic template has greater functionality and better display. The arrondiessement can be added to the generic template, the specific one can be converted into a wrapper so that it can be substituted and deleted.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per Imzadi1979.  Dough 48  72  18:51, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose, sorta. I would like to see this become similar to the FRWP version of the same template (Modèle:Infobox Voie parisienne), where there is some of the "showiness" of the previous version, but the template would, in effect, be a wrapper for Infobox street. –Fredddie™ 23:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * N.B.: I am willing to do the work I describe. –Fredddie™ 23:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The nom writes "overly-specific", but that is not explained (so I keep that for not true). Also, bad sloppy param analysis; a first glance already shows quarter information. Statements "chief difference" (nom) and "has greater functionality" (Imzadi 1979) are incorrect or imprecise. -DePiep (talk) 06:25, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per Imzadi1979. Paris is of different importance in France. A glance at the templates shows that Paris street is very specific which is not needed in the English Wikipedia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:16, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per Gerda Arendt and others, but in the future please do not spam articles containing our Infobox street (or any other valid Template) with a notice regarding a Photo Booth in a separate Wikipedia corner. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per Imzadi1979: redundant to Infobox street Jc86035 (talk • contributions) Use &#123;&#123;ping&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125; to reply to me 12:17, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * support, I started a wrapper version in the sandbox. it would be good to have direct support for the arrondiessement, better to have support for both arrondiessement and quarter, best to have support for arrondiessement, quarter, and x/y/map. Frietjes (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
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Template:Chairpersons of the University Alliance

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The result of the discussion was merge; no objections
 * Chairpersons of the University Alliance
 * University Alliance

Propose merging Template:Chairpersons of the University Alliance with Template:University Alliance.

Content covered in the chairpersons navbox could easily be included in the University Alliance Navbox as a section. C h r i s ☮ (Talk) 13:53, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
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Template:JJ Project

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The result of the discussion was Delete Bgwhite (talk) 07:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
 * JJ Project

Utterly redundant, this template for a two-person boy band that released one single in 2012 and then was dissolved. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Agree. Not enough links to be useful. -- P 1 9 9 ✉ 18:58, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
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