Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 June 26



Template:Sun

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 03:26, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sun

I see no reason why this infobox should exist as a template. This violates the guildeline against storing article content in this manner. Mercury, Venus, Earth and likely the others have the infobox directly in the page. This also splits any discussion between the separate talk pages and creates unnecessary additional complexity for references. Ricky81682 (talk) 22:23, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Merge into Sun article. Zell Faze (talk) 16:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Subst, and delete --Netoholic @ 18:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * merge (possibly redirect for attribution or delete) no need to split the infobox from the article. Frietjes (talk) 23:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment it's been editprotected since 2008, and seems to have only been protected once, what gives? If it is necessary to have this indef'prot'd then it would be better to keep it as a template instead of protecting the main article indef. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk)
 * Orphan and then delete. Substing it would be a bad idea, because this isn't a standard infobox: someone just created an infobox from raw code.  Instead, we should add Infobox star (or some other infobox) to the Sun article, copy over the parameters, and then orphan the infobox.  That being done, it can be deleted.  Nyttend (talk) 01:03, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * doesn't have all the fields that would be right for the Sun. Its a pretty special-case star. That said, I've converted it to use, so if the decision comes down to delete, it can be copied right into the article. --Netoholic @ 07:43, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:No Orchids for Miss Blandish

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was relisted on 2014 July 14 Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 03:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Efs cs start

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 04:25, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Efs cs start

Sole purpose of template was to complete the function of Extended football squad start except with a "Clean sheets" column, rather than a "Goals" column. This edit now makes this possible change in the main template. Template no longer used in mainspace. SFB 18:45, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete --Netoholic @ 18:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * delete or userfy. Frietjes (talk) 23:19, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Violence against men

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was no consensus Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Violence against men

This template was created and is being promoted by Men's Rights Advocates as a false equivalence to Template:Violence against women. It's a clear WP:POVPUSH that is unwarranted and absurd. Attempts to move it to a more neutral title "men and violence", for example, are being reverted by the MRA promoter. Just delete it as unnecessary and problematic. jps (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * strong oppose The scurrilous accusations must stop, and I didn't even create this template. If you want to change the name, you can propose an RM, but deleting it because I reverted your undiscussed change is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. I've posted number of WP:RS that cover the topic of violence against men, to be sure we don't have articles on all of these topics yet, but the current template is reasonable and I see no cause to delete it, because it groups together topics on the broad issue of sexual and gender-based violence against men, which is attested in the literature and named as such. I'm not sure what POV is being pushed exactly, JPS is full of accusations, and has given no response to the sources below which I shared in another conversation, preferring to impugn my motives rather than engage in a real content discussion. FWIW, I'm not an MRA, and don't agree with many of the things they say.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Support removal - It's a man-bites-dog kind of thing, trying to prove a point of some kind. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is an offshoot of the "violence against men" article (see Articles for deletion/Violence against men (3rd nomination)) and is exactly the same kind of POV-pushing/synthesis. —  Scott  •  talk  09:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * synth doesn't apply to templates, and your accusations of POV pushing ring hollow if you ignore the sources below. Which POV are those sources pushing? For example, sex-selective summary execution, rape, castration and penis removal are all used as weapons of sexual violence against civilian men in conflict situations, and the sources call this sexual and gender-based violence and study them together. Similarly the phenomenon of male rape and domestic violence against men is well attested in the literature. There's no 'titanic' or 'wicker man' stories in the template, so it has little to do with the old article. If you want to demonstrate POV you have to say what POV and demonstrate how that POV is disputed by sources, which you haven't done. As such it's just an accusation with no evidence. And I'll say again, synth doesn't apply to templates.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep, or merge - We have ample articles which describe violence against men specifically, so a navigation aid similar to the women's one is appropriate. I would support merge with Template:Violence against women to produce something like Template:Gender-based violence. --Netoholic @ 18:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * comment Editors may be interested in a similar discussion happening at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_June_24 where the category associated with this template is being proposed for deletion.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * delete POV-pushing via categories? Yeah, but no. Hipocrite (talk) 19:19, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep or Merge - Per . We have articles, sources and massive about violence against both men and women. We shall merge the template, and if there is no consensus about merging "violence against women", then we will have to keep this template.  Occult Zone  (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:21, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep We have several articles about violence specifically targeted towards men. This is a viable way of linking the topics. The collection of linked articles does not push an agenda, but merely links topics that people would expect on such a subject. SFB 10:45, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep To say that this template is POV pushing by MRAs seems a little strange when one considers the amount of solid empirical evidence documenting violence against men. Also, As SFB says, the template is not pushing an agenda. Also, to say it is an example of false equivalence to the VAW template is simply wrong, and brings to mind the oft-repeated claim that anyone who discusses VAM is necessarily antifeminist. Bertaut (talk) 00:23, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep- bordering on speedy. Nomination consists entirely of veiled and baseless personal attacks. No evidence has been provided to support allegations of POV-pushing, and I don't buy the idea that the existence of this template is some sort of "false equivalence" with the VAW template. I don't agree that renaming it "men and violence" would be more neutral, since this phrase is ambiguous and could be misinterpreted to men violence committed by mean instead of against them. Contrary to the extremely poor nomination, the defenders of this template have demonstrated that violence against men is indeed a thing that is discussed as such in reliable sources. Reyk  YO!  03:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

additional discussion

 * "Sexual violence is committed against men more frequently than is often thought. It is perpetrated at home, in the community and in prison; by men and by women; during conflict and in time of peace...It is not limited to any particular part of the world. It is not confined to state forces, armed opposition groups or private contractors. It is not limited in its age of victims, or its place of commission. The range of sexual violence committed against men in armed conflict crosses the full gamut of possibilities; all permutations and combinations are present...Sexual violence against men has been chronicled as taking place in conflicts in the more distant past, for example in Ancient Persia, and the Crusades, as well as by the Ancient Greek, Chinese, Amalekite, Egyptian and Norse armies. It has occurred in the conflicts in El Salvador, Chile, Guatemala, and Argentina. It has been perpetrated in the conflicts in Greece, Northern Ireland, Chechnya, Turkey, and the former Yugoslavia. It has been a feature of the conflicts in Sri Lanka, Iraq-Kuwait, Coalition-Iraq, and the Sino-Japanese war. It has been present in the conflicts in Liberia, Sierra Leone, Kenya, Sudan, the Central African Republic, Burundi, Uganda, Rwanda, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Zimbabwe, and South Africa."
 * "The great reluctance of many men and boys to report sexual violence makes it very difficult to accurately assess its scope. The limited statistics that exist almost certainly vastly under-represent the number of male victims. Nevertheless, in the last decade, sexualised violence against men and boys – including rape, sexual torture, mutilation of the genitals, sexual humiliation, sexual enslavement, forced incest and forced rape – has been reported in 25 armed conflicts across the world. If one expands this tally to include cases of sexual exploitation of boys displaced by violent conflict, the list encompasses the majority of the 59 armed conflicts identified in the recent Human Security Report."
 * "Sexual violence against men as a constituent element of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes often goes under noticed, under prosecuted, and ultimately, under punished."
 * "In this article, I argue that gender-based violence against men (including sexual violence, forced conscription, and sex-selective massacre) must be recognized as such, condemned, and addressed by civilian protection agencies and proponents of a ‘human security’ agenda in international relations. Men deserve protection against these abuses in their own right; moreover, addressing gender-based violence against women and girls in conflict situations is inseparable from addressing the forms of violence to which civilian men are specifically vulnerable."
 * "As Das shows, the targeting of the men was not only to eliminate them physically, but also to humiliate the men of the entire Sikh community, who could not defend themselves, or their homes, unless they ran and hit or shamed themselves by dressing as women...To be sure, this targeting of men specifically is itself a form of gendered violence."
 * "Given the socially constructed notion of paternity and building of nations through male descent (rather than female), sexual violence against women, including rape to impregnate women and sexual violence against men to damage their genitalia and reproductive capacities, may be based on the same war tactic for ethnic cleansing. Similarly, the mass assassination of men and boys served this ethnic cleansing purpose. Therefore, although the rape of men may have been less prominent, it is problematic to assume that gender-based violence was mostly directed at women when other forms of sexual violence including castration and damage to reproductive organs were more prominent forms of violence against men. Without undermining the need to pay attention to the experiences of women and girls during conflict, discourse on gender-based violence should also start examining the specific needs of men for three reasons: (1) the rationale and symbolic meaning behind gender-based violence during war, especially during ethno-sectarian conflict, is often the same: ethnic cleansing, whether the victims are men or women; (2) the impact of violence, including sexual violence, on health may be different for men and women and may require distinct therapeutic approaches; and (3) because perpetrators are often men, an extra level of stigma is added when heterosexual men are sexually abused by men that may lead to underreporting and shame in accessing services if they are at all available."
 * "Media and service provider reports of sexual and gender based violence (SGBV) perpetrated against men in armed conflicts have increased. However, response to these reports has been limited, as existing evidence and programs have primarily focused on prevention and response to women and girl survivors of SGBV. This study found that SGBV against men, as for women, is multi-dimensional and has significant negative physical, mental, social and economic consequences for the male survivor and his family. SGBV perpetrated against men and boys is likely common within a conflict-affected region but often goes unreported by survivors and others due to cultural and social factors associated with sexual assaults, including survivor shame, fear of retaliation by perpetrators and stigma by community members."
 * "Sexual violence against men in armed conflict has been documented for thousands of years under the various guises of war, torture and mutilation yet it is often neglected mainly because of overwhelming stigma and shame surrounding it. Based on academic and grey literature on sexual violence against men in conflict, this article discusses the complex reasons for lack of quality data on this important topic. The motivations of sexual violence against men are also explored through applying causal theories that are largely based on female victims of sexual violence. Finally, interventions for the management of sexual violence against men in conflict are discussed. This study concludes that gendered binaries and strict gender roles are primarily responsible in accentuating sexual violence against men in terrorising and humiliating victims, and must be addressed."
 * "This book examines the influence of gender ideas on the international regime protecting war-affected civilians. It asks: why did BSA fighters execute civilian males while allowing women and children to flee Srebrenica, and then claim to have complied with the civilian immunity norm? Why did international agencies mandated with the protection of civilians in the former Yugoslavia leave civilian men and older boys in the enclaves, while evacuating besieged women and younger children? Why, while the international community still agonized over Srebrenica, did delegates to the Security council invoke the protection of every category of civilian except "adult male" in their moral discourse? I argue that to understand the way in which the laws of ware are implemented and promoted in international society, we must understand how gender ideas affect and, I argue, ultimately undermine the principle of civilian immunity....First, we can look at whether actors actually treat civilians differently depending on sex and age, and if they do, we can look for clues as to why this is the case. Are male civilians more likely to be killed?... The historical record from Vietnam, Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia provide evidence of the way that gender has long informed belligerent's understandings of their responsibilities towards civilians and continues to regulate their actual patterns of restraint."
 * "It argues that gendercide -- inclusively defined as gender-selective mass killing -- is a frequent and often defining feature of human conflict, and perhaps of human social organization, extending [186] back to antiquity. I contend as well that gendercide is a regular, even ubiquitous feature of contemporary politico-military conflicts worldwide...That the gender-selective mass killing and "disappearance" of males, especially "battle-age" males, remains a pervasive feature of contemporary conflict is not open to dispute. Indeed, its frequency across cultures and conflict types marks it as a possibly definitional element of contemporary warfare, state terrorism, mob violence, and paramilitary brigandage... If gendercide and mass killings of males is to some degree definitional of modern conflict, we may also be able to isolate an essential if not universal ritual of gendercide against men. It is the physical act of separating men from women as a prelude to consigning men to death. The ritual is enacted with great frequency the world over, although it is not always explicit in the above examples."
 * "Crimes committed as part of the Islamist campaign of "sexual cleansing" are a form of gender–based torture: they are gender–based because they seek to enforce prescribed social roles for men and women; and they constitute torture because state authorities have acquiesced to and participated in the violence. US authorities have responded to Iraqis seeking protection or justice in the wake of homophobic attacks with derision and outright mockery. The US–backed Iraqi police stand accused of rape and extortion by gay men. According to one Baghdad resident, "Policemen raped me several times at gunpoint and threatened to hand me over to extremist groups if I refused. Gender–based attacks on Iraqi men are also used to foment sectarian violence."
 * References

I have posted some additional quotes and sources for those who are unfamiliar with the topic of violence against men or those who believe this is a fringe subject being promoted by the Men's Rights Movement, from a broad variety of scholars across a broad variety of issue areas, though below I mostly focused on sources that looked at sexual violence against males in conflict situations as well as gendercide/androcide. A great deal of other sources could be provided around Prison rape, Male rape, Domestic violence against men, and other forms of gendered violence perpetrated against men, but I didn't want to spam this page with links for that given we already have articles on same.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:30, 25 June 2014 (UTC)


 * As loathe as I am to support basically anything that MRAs are in favour of, there's no policy-based rationale for deletion here while we do indeed have articles like domestic violence against men that need to be interlinked. I'm suspicious there's a walled-garden effect in progress here (whereby we only have these articles so that they can link to one another) but until that's addressed it is normal to have a navbox for the topics. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:34, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.