Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 November 28



Template:Betty Who

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. (non-admin closure) Primefac (talk) 04:09, 6 December 2015 (UTC) Musician template for artist with an article for one album. A navbox is unnecessary since linking back and forth between the two articles is already easy. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 20:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Betty Who
 * delete, standard in-article linking works fine here. Frietjes (talk) 16:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Scottish dogs

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was relist to Dec 17. There is plenty of back-and-forth with the Irish template, and now that it's been closed the discussion about the UK templates can proceed. Primefac (talk) 03:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC) Propose merging Template:Welsh dogs with Template:English dogs.
 * Scottish dogs
 * Welsh dogs
 * English dogs

I propose changing the name of Template:English dogs to Template:British Isles dogs and merging Template:Welsh dogs, Template:Scottish dogs and Template:Irish dogs into it, in a similar manner to Template:Horse breeds of the British Isles. The histories of these countries and their dogs are intertwined, many of the breeds covered are shown in two or more of these templates and it will allow the separation of the Scottish, Welsh & Irish dogs into categories by role / type. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I have undone the merger until this discussion reaches a consensus (either on the merger or final name).
 * Weak Support - As it is part of the United Kingdom, but I'd suggest "Template:United Kingdom dogs" or "Template:Great Britain dogs" as the name of the template. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 17:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose instead create a new template called Template:British dogs and a redirect from Template:British Isles dogs ; and merge all three templates into the new template, and redirect the source template names. There is no reason to promote the history of the English template instead of giving equal consideration. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Merged to Template:British dogs. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 12:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Unsure about the proposal. The list just gets longer and longer. Also, United Kingdom or not, the countries of the UK remain quite distinct in traditions, and dog breeding is a tradition there. A number of dog breeds have "English", "Scottish", "Welsh" or "Irish" in the name, while there is no British Terrier, Setter, or Wolfhound. See also the remark under . Next time please wait until a consensus is reached. PanchoS (talk) 06:11, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've changed my above support to weak per your points. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 06:24, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC) It would probably be best if an admin closed the other issue first, possibly relisting this one again, so we can figure out the remaining aspects. PanchoS (talk) 13:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * From what I can tell this seems to be supported. As stated below, the purpose of merging these templates is to better link dog breeds and types with common heritage and breeding.  Cavalryman V31 (talk) 11:23, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Neutral. As explained further down, I agree that "United Kingdom dog breeds" would include dogs of Northern Ireland, so the correct naming would simply be "British dog breeds" (see "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland") vs. "Irish dog breeds" (see "Ireland"). While I'm not sure if the Great Britain ones need to be merged, I think Ireland shouldn't be merged in. If however all end up being merged, then the correct name would be Template:British Isles dog breeds, while otherwise Template:British dog breeds and Template:Irish dog breeds are the way to go.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Irish dogs

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. (non-admin closure) Primefac (talk) 02:59, 17 December 2015 (UTC) Propose merging Template:Irish dogs with Template:English dogs.
 * English dogs

I propose changing the name of Template:English dogs to Template:British Isles dogs and merging Template:Welsh dogs, Template:Scottish dogs and Template:Irish dogs into it, in a similar manner to Template:Horse breeds of the British Isles. The histories of these countries and their dogs are intertwined, many of the breeds covered are shown in two or more of these templates and it will allow the separation of the Scottish, Welsh & Irish dogs into categories by role / type. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I have undone the merger until this discussion reaches a consensus, particularly with regard to what name it would be given if the Irish dogs were added in.
 * Oppose - A distinction between the dogs of Great Britain and Ireland is perhaps due. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 17:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose instead create a new template called Template:British dogs and a redirect from Template:British Isles dogs ; and merge all three templates into the new template, and redirect the source template names. There is no reason to promote the history of the English template instead of giving equal consideration. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Merged to Template:British dogs. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 12:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why was this done? The discussion is not closed. Consensus doesn't exist, especially in regard to the Irish portion of the dogs, for the merger. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 05:03, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Unsure, see my comment under . However, the naming Template:British dogs outright unacceptable. If combined with Irish dogs, it has to be Template:Dog breeds of the British Isles or Template:British Isles dog breeds. PanchoS (talk) 06:13, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. While Ireland is part of the geographic grouping called the British Isles, it is erroneous to call Irish dogs "British". — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 06:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen, I sincerely apologise., I was genuinely unaware of the time requirements, as to consensus the language used in your opposition to the inclusion of Irish dogs seemed restrained.  , I am very happy to change the name to Template:British Isles dogs, it is simply behind the scenes coding that is in no way reflected in the title that as seen on any breed pages.  As to the national traditions, my reasoning for merging the templates is, in the world of dogs it was a regional tradition across Great Britain, Ireland and the various small isles that surround the both, the dog breeds from all four countries are inextricably linked.  The English Foxhound is the most common packhound in all four countries and whilst its genesis was in Northern England, the development occurred concurrently (and continues) in all four countries, in fact the inclusion of the word English is applied by our American friends to distinguish it from their own variety.  The English Cocker Spaniel again is only so named in the USA to distinguish it from the American Cocker Spaniel and in reality the article should be renamed to remove the word English.  The Harrier, Otterhound and Beagle are common to all four counties, the national exceptions to the commonality of packhounds are the Kerry Beagle (which is only a Beagle in name) and the Dumfriesshire Hound, which is actually a variety of Foxhound.  The separation of the English Springer Spaniel and the Welsh Springer Spaniel is a modern creation of the dog show world, they were and remain one working breed that also occurs in Scotland and Ireland, the variations on the type are theClumber Spaniel, and Sussex Spaniel, the Field Spaniel being another variation created by the show breeder fraternity.  The extinct English Water Spaniel in reality lives on in the Irish Water Spaniel, as does the English Deerhound in the Scottish Deerhound.All varieties of the Collie are regional variations on a common breed, something very similar can be said for the various Setters and also the Terriers, many local breeds (usually with a regionally identifying name) are genetically almost identical, the possible exception being some of the long-legged Irish breeds, although the Airedale fills  the same niche.  Again, I genuinely apologise if my actions have caused grievances, they were not intended to do so, simply to better link regionally common breeds with historical and links.  Kind regards, Cavalryman V31 (talk) 11:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The objection to the inclusion of Ireland seems to be the naming of the template, I will rename the template Template:British Isles dogs and a redirect from Template:British dogs. As stated above, many of the dogs within the template, whilst nominally English, are common to Ireland, along with Wales and Scotland, whilst those distinct to Ireland are very closely related to those from Britain, with common ancestry. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 11:23, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * My objection goes beyond that. I don't think Irish dogs should be lumped in with British dogs. Dogs are generally broken up "ethnicity"/country, not geography. For example: Danish dogs, Norwegian dogs, and Swedish dogs, not Scandinavian dogs (without letting Scandinavia vs. Scandinavian Peninsula complicate it). Perhaps all United Kingdom dogs should not be grouped together, but I wouldn't oppose that per modern synonymy and your long comment above (which I appreciated). Regards, — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 03:45, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes I respect that position. Where does one stop? All of Europe? The difference from your analogy is Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom until the Republic of Ireland gained independence in 1922 and the (at that stage not so-named) Common Travel Area agreement came into force the following year. The Scandanavian countries date back millenia with the various trade and border restrictions associated with that. Whilst politically Ireland's inclusion in the UK was not a happy marriage, for animal husbandry it was, especially for dogs which traditionally often travelled with their masters, particularly with sportsmen who were usually accompanied by their gundogs and hounds, drovers who travelled broadly with their herding dogs, and Gypsies whose traditional dogs include lurchers and terriers. Locals no doubt took advantage of the services of talented visiting dogs crossed to local stock of similar function, whilst travellers would no doubt would have (they certainly still do today) purchased pups from local dog types they saw and admired. The commonality between the dog breeds from across the British Isles is testimony to this, with regional variations upon a common developmental thread. The only dog breeds within the combined template developed post Irish independence are the Patterdale Terrier, Plummer Terrier and the Northern Inuit dog. I do however believe a template not including Ireland should not be called Template:United Kingdom dogs because that would assume Northern Ireland is included, whereas the dogs included in the Irish template are not of the Republic, but instead the "island of Ireland" (excuse the pun). Kind regards, Cavalryman V31 (talk) 12:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Please review the current Template:British dogs, it provides an illustration of the commonality between the various dogs of the four counties. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 12:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * In addition to those reasons stated above, the uniqueness of dogs from the British Isles can be attributed to several other reasons.  The wolf was extirpated from Great Britain in 1684 and Ireland in 1786, this contributed both to the sporting and pastoral types.  The largest predatory threats to sheep farming across the British Isles became the fox and badger, leading to the development of what I consider the most unique and greatest British and Irish contribution to the dog world, the terrier.  Other European countries produced earth dogs, the dachshunds are an example, but on the Britain Isles it was an art form.  If you review Template:Terriers you will see almost all are from one of these four countries, or were bred directly from them.  Pastoral dogs in continental Europe, indeed almost all of the Old World, are livestock guardian dogs.  Even in the continental herding type dogs (German Shepherd, Beauceron, Bohemian Shepherd, Belgian Shepherds etc) defence against wolf attack was an element of their duties.  This was not required on the British Isles, leading to the development of the various purely herding collie types.  Unlike in continental Europe which still retains some large forests, the clearing of forests on Britain and Ireland at the end of the 17th century led to a decline in stag numbers and consequently a decline in the popularity of stag hunting with hounds.  Those mounted sportsmen turned to fox hunting as a favorite pastime, and the fox was not a noble beast, anyone who could afford a horse (the emerging middle class) could follow a hunt. The larger packhounds of Europe are largely bred to hunt the stag, wolf and boar (extirpated from the British Isles in the middle ages), whilst the English Foxhound, the modern Kerry Beagle and the Welsh Hound are all bred to hunt the fox.  The development of gun dogs in the British Isles is also unique to that of the rest of Europe, a product of the unique shooting habits of the sportsmen of Great Britain and Ireland.  Unlike continental pointing breeds which are all versatile breeds (that point, retrieve and flush), the British and Irish breeds (Pointer and setters) are singly pointers.  The flushing dogs (spaniels) and retrievers are similarly unique, with almost all breeds either from the British Isles or bred descended from them.   It is for these reasons and those already stated that I advocate the unification of these templates.Cavalryman V31 (talk) 12:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

If they however end up being merged, then the correct name would be Template:British Isles dog breeds, while otherwise Template:British dog breeds and Template:Irish dog breeds are the way to go. PanchoS (talk) 13:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Per Cavalryman V31's above arguments I agree that "United Kingdom dog breeds" would include dogs of Northern Ireland, so the correct naming would simply be "British dog breeds" (see "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland") and "Irish dog breeds" (see "Ireland"). While I'm not sure if the Great Britain ones need to be merged, I think Ireland shouldn't be merged in.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:History of the Serbian language

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. (non-admin closure) Primefac (talk) 04:03, 6 December 2015 (UTC) I am the creator. The template is largely unused, and fails to adequately group History of the Serbian language articles (of which there are not many). The parent article, Serbian language, is more than appropriate for that information. Also, in the future, a template for the Serbo-Croatian language would be more appropriate. Z oupan 00:53, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * History of the Serbian language
 * Basically, Template:Slavic languages seems very adequate for that purpose. While this is a nicely constructed Navbox, it is indeed not much used and fails to reflect the multitude of Slavic languages going back to the same Proto-Slavic roots. Therefore, we should do the (more or less) single author the favor and delete the template. PanchoS (talk) 08:53, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * delete per author. Frietjes (talk) 16:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).