Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 17



Template:Largest cities of Israel

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was keep. No prejudice against modification or further discussion about updates to this template. Primefac (talk) 14:55, 25 May 2021 (UTC) used on only 2 articles and should be replaced by Largest Israeli cities. There is a precedent for this.Catchpoke (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Largest cities of Israel
 * Related: Largest Israeli cities -DePiep (talk) 11:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Catchpoke, I'm confused by this request. You have requested Largest cities of Israel for deletion, but the way you have worded your request, you say it should be replaced by Largest Israeli cities. This sounds more like a merger request. Are the articles in the Largest cities of Israel template included in the Largest Israeli cities? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes: all of the cities in Largest cities of Israel are included in Largest Israeli cities. I stated that Largest cities of Israel should be replaced with Largest Israeli cities because the data in Largest cities of Israel requires constant updating (including the reference provided by Israel Central Bureau of Statistics).   since we already have List of cities in Israel, its safe to delete Largest cities of Israel. Catchpoke (talk) 23:23, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "all of the cities in Largest cities of Israel are included in Largest Israeli cities" False. You are obviously don't know what you are talking about, can't even open and compare the two. The templates have different content, purpose and placement in articles, as I explained below.
 * "data in Largest cities of Israel requires constant updating" It does not, actually, as it's updated automatically through Israel populations. And whether it's updatable or not is not a rationale for deletion, anyway. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 03:46, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, I stand corrected by the constant updating argument as I wasn't aware of Israel populations. However, Largest cities of Israel lists only 10 or 20 city entries and 4 pictures of the cities which is arbitrary and capricious and the relevant policy here is WP:NAVCOLOR.  Largest cities is currently used on the state/provincial level and there isn't any policy that states country level usage must be kept.  The other problem is, as user:Gonnym mentioned, that they are incompatible with mobile view.  These reasons support turning these templates into lists if they don't already exist.  Catchpoke (talk) 17:41, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "relevant policy here is WP:NAVCOLOR" WP:NAVCOLOR is about navigational templates, which this one is not.
 * "Largest cities is currently used on the state/provincial level" No, it's used on every level: . --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 07:14, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep The "precedent" you provided is of a subdivision, not a country. Largest cities is a standard feature of articles about countries, see United Kingdom, France, Canada, Greece, Egypt, China, Japan etc. And Largest Israeli cities that you suggest to replace this one with is a navbox, a different kind of template. Nominator is a newbie.

--Triggerhippie4 (talk) 00:35, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * you suggest to replace this one with is a navbox, a different kind of template. Nominator is a newbie - Largest cities of Israel uses class "nav". Both are navboxes. Also, it calls Largest cities which says the template isn't displayed in mobile. So you are basically placing a navigation template in the middle of an article and hiding it from 50% of readers. --Gonnym (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It's too broad for mobile view. Largest cities templates are presenting detailed information on few top cities with images and are useful in article bodies. Navboxes with all cities are for navigation between them and are placed at the bottom with other navboxes. Besides that, it doesn't matter for the nomination, as it should be speedy kept, and if you want to delete Largest-cities templates you should nominate all hundreds of them. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:47, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Content should not be hidden from half our readers. If such a table is needed in the middle of an article, it should be converted to a standard table. --Gonnym (talk) 09:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It is horizontal, not designed for mobile view. If a mobile reader at Israel (where the template is) wants a list of largest cities they click on hatnote. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with nominating most of if not all of them though i find that rather bold due to the chilling effect of attitudes and comments like "nominator is a newbie".Catchpoke (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with Catchpoke about the Nominator is a newbie address being unhelpful. Also, given the current discussion, !voting "speedy" is off. -DePiep (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * About being a navbox: both templates set, so both are a navbox full stop. Being a navbox implies prescriptions on their setup, content, aim, behaviour and required placement in the page layout. Most importantly, navboxes may not be in article body text (for example, because navboxes are not shown in mobile view). For this reason, the current three (not two!) article usages are incorrect. This cannot be solved by table design changes. -DePiep (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Largest Israeli cities is a navigational template. Largest cities of Israel on the other hand (just like every other Largest cities template) is not used for navigation between articles linked in it. The former is placed in "External links", and the latter is in article body. Open each of the two, and check how they are used in articles. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes yes yes: it is used as a regular article body table, as everybody here knows and says. But but but ... the template IS A NAVBOX. Now please could you respond to the more serious issues you were pinged for? -DePiep (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete There is no rationale for keeping two templates with the same topic. Although, there needs to be a discussion about the Largest cities in the world templates navbox and the individual Largest cities of templates. I don't see why there needs to be a navbox that leads to template pages. Navigational boxes should lead to articles listed in the template. "all of the cities in Largest cities of Israel are included in Largest Israeli cities. False. You are obviously don't know what you are talking about, can't even open and compare the two." Triggerhippie4, there's no need to be angry over a template discussion. In fact, the cities listed in Largest cities of Israel are in the Largest Israeli cities navbox. And Catchpoke, if you do nominate another one of these templates, it's best to nominate multiple for one discussion in order to avoid repeated single discussions. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:30, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Largest cities of Israel is not a navbox and is not used for navigation between cities in it. That's what Largest Israeli cities is for. You voted delete. Are you ok with Israel article being singled out while virtually every other country continue to have such template? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 17:30, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As I explained in my 12:33 post, it is a navbox. -DePiep (talk) 12:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a navbox. The largest cities in the world navbox needs to be looked at because that navbox just leads to templates about largest cities in a country. A navbox should lead to articles, not templates. And yes I am because there already exists a navbox that has the same purpose. And other countries with this template that's being nominated for deletion needs to be looked at as well. A navbox that can do the same thing is better than the way the Largest cities of templates are outlined. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The largest cities in the world navbox needs to be looked at. There's no such navbox. I used World topic with modifications to display the series of templates.
 * A navbox should lead to articles, not templates. Not true, see Category:Navigational meta-templates.
 * And yes I am because there already exists a navbox that has the same purpose. They have different purposes. One is for displaying detailed list of top cities in the country's main article, and the other is for navigation between all cities.
 * You are as competent as the nominator. You were blocked just recently with one of the reasons being WP:CIR. Can we get mindful editors to participate here, please? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 18:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If you are going to invoke CIR, then you should have kept that in mind when calling the user who nominated a newbie and saying what he said was "False" and "You are obviously don't know what you are talking about". You are as competent as nominator. You need to refrain from personal attacks. This is now the second time you have done that in this discussion toward two editors. And there is no deadline to get this discussion closed. Other editors will take part. Be patient. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 18:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am astonished too that Triggerhippie4 Th4 for a second time enters WP:PAs to two editors, as WCM points out: "... newbie", "You are as ...". I strongly advise Th4 to self-redact these posts and refrain from such. Is really could spoil the discussion, and most likely your argument first. -DePiep (talk) 12:48, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep. It's an essential part of 2 very important articles to Wikipedia that are being updated simultaneously through this template. There's absolutely no precedent to this deletion or merger (whatever was intended) at the national level. gidonb (talk) 00:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If needed, I am willing to withdraw my nomination but nominate the whole series but I will need a template editor to tag Largest cities for deletion.Catchpoke (talk) 17:41, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Now that you have started this unnecessary procedure, it's not a good idea to take it elsewhere. You'll just keep wasting precious community time that could have been constructively put to use elsewhere. gidonb (talk) 12:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , no need (or option at all any more, ftm) to withdraw. The discussion is due, and many aspects are in play already.
 * I don't think your judgements on this procedure and on an editor's GF are sound or helpful. -DePiep (talk) 12:52, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Doesn't your opinion about my response to the AfD and to the nominator's question to me already follow from your other stated opinion? And why would one comment under literally each and every opinion in an AfD? User Triggerhippie4 has explained to you the differences between the two templates. I have explained how article body templates produce efficiencies. No need to rehash all that. gidonb (talk) 13:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , it should be noted that gidonb has now gone to accuse me and Catchpoke of sockpuppetry. It's quite clear that gidonb and Triggerhippie are not here to have a civil discussion over something as minor as a TFD. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:30, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't an AfD. Don't be a hypocrite.Catchpoke (talk) 02:51, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * TfD. People are welcome to sing my praises or curses. I can only establish that your two sentences seem unrelated. gidonb (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep. No reason to delete whatsoever. A similar cities template exists for every single country in the world.--SoaringLL (talk) 14:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Please explain User:SoaringLL: why or how 'speedy'? Why at all do you claim that the arguments are absolute or comform WP:SPEEDY? How did you conclude the counter-arguments (already presented to you) are void? -DePiep (talk) 19:38, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep Regardless of the technical structure, Largest cities of Israel is not intended as a navbox, nor used as a navbox. There are questions raised above about whether the navbox structure should be used in an article body at all, but these should be presented in a more general discussion (a multiple nomination was suggested above for example) instead of a focus on a single country. CMD (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep and overhaul both involved templates. Perform all changes, including name changes (Move), to reach this situation:


 * current Largest cities of Israel rename eg Template:Israeli cities
 * Renamed (moved) into a different name, for example Template:Israeli cities. This is to undo wrong name pattern usage, and to free the name for the navbox; see below.
 * Seen its current usage (three times in article body), it is content. It can not be a navbox (so Largest cities cannot be used since it sets ).
 * A table redesign could be considered, solving issues mentioned above.
 * Positioning inside article body unchanged.
 * current Largest Israeli cities rename Largest cities of Israel.
 * Stays a WP:navbox, so Navbox can be used.
 * Rename (moved) to Largest cities of Israel. This follows the name pattern for all similar navboxes. See here and here.
 * Incidentally, Module:World topic needs no name change with this.
 * Being named "cities of Israel", cities not in the country can not be listed in here. No West Bank places can be listed, and Jerusalem must be noted to mean East-Jerusalem only.
 * Positioning below article body unchanged (MOS:NAVLAYOUT).
 * Main takeaway: Largest cities of Israel must be the navbox, following pattern all countries have. Current Largest cities of Israel must be renamed and de-navboxed, treated as article content. -DePiep (talk) 11:43, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (collapsed my earlier, abandoned proposal. -DePiep (talk) 18:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC))


 * Following the Triggerhippie4 06:04 post below, showing a list of these tables: my improved conclusions & proposal:
 * 1. Tables that are used as content in article body text must be non-navbox by every means. This includes: NO . See also PrimeHunter @12:13, below.
 * 2. Tables used as navbox, must have
 * 3. Tables being a navbox (undisputed by now) shall have "navbox" in their template name. (Template:Largest Israeli cities &rarr; Template:Navbox largest Israeli cities).
 * 4. This TfD could be closed for being too singular, and reopened to address all Cities templates involved (both ways).
 * -DePiep (talk) 18:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't mind denavboxing and turning these templates into article content (if they are not already WP:SALs) though I prefer deletion.Catchpoke (talk) 00:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Standard naming for content templates is "Largest cities of [COUNTRY]", whilst navboxes have no clear naming pattern. Examples:

! Article !! Navbox
 * Largest cities of Australia || Cities of Australia
 * Largest cities of Bangladesh || Bangladesh cities
 * Largest cities of Chile || Large cities of Chile
 * Largest cities of Denmark || 30 most populous cities of Denmark
 * Largest cities of Egypt || Egyptian cities
 * Largest cities or towns of Ethiopia || Cities of Ethiopia
 * Largest cities of France || Cities in France
 * Largest cities of Georgia (country) || Cities and towns in Georgia (country)
 * Largest cities of Germany || Cities in Germany
 * Largest cities of Hungary || Principal cities of Hungary
 * Largest cities of Indonesia || Most populous cities in Indonesia
 * Largest cities of Italy || Cities in Italy
 * Largest cities of Japan || Most populous cities in Japan
 * Largest cities of Myanmar || Most populous cities in Myanmar
 * Largest cities of Pakistan || Pakistani cities
 * Largest cities of Peru || Large cities of Peru
 * Largest cities of the Philippines || Cities of the Philippines
 * Largest cities of Poland || Principal cities of Poland
 * Largest cities of Saudi Arabia || Saudi cities
 * Largest cities of South Korea || Most populous cities in South Korea
 * Largest cities of Spain || Cities in Spain
 * Largest cities of Switzerland || Cities in Switzerland
 * Largest cities of Thailand || Most populous cities in Thailand
 * Largest cities of Ukraine || Cities in Ukraine
 * Largest cities of the United Arab Emirates || UAE cities
 * Largest Urban Areas of the United Kingdom || UK cities
 * Largest cities of Vietnam || Most populous cities in Vietnam
 * }
 * --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 06:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Th4 please specify how you made this list. Templates using ? -DePiep (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Almost every country has template, but fewer have cities navboxes. This is a list of some countries that have both templates. I've listed them to show that the first type of templates has a rule for name, whilst navboxes do not. The first is used in the middle of country's main article, "geography of ...", and "demographics of ..." articles. The second is used in articles about cities themselves at the bottom as navigation between cities. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ouch, so the navbox-abuse is widespread. Likely, all Largest cities-using templates must be scrutinised. -DePiep (talk) 10:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What "abuse"? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * meta-template sets , but many of these in the list are used in article body (that is: content not WP:NAVBOX). As I described for the nominated . By now, after all the explanation, can you agree that  such a   can not be in article body? -DePiep (talk) 11:29, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I don't understand Meta-Wiki. What you are talking about is a different narrow topic about formatting. Perhaps you should raise this question at Largest cities talk page so class be changed. But that definetly can not be a rationale for deletion/merge of this template alone. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * bluntly now: is a 'meta-template': used as a sub-template/tool in other templates (like in ). Then since it is used, the ".. Spain" template is 'contaminated'. IOW: any template using template  IS a navbox per  . The "... Spain" template is too. Is what meta says. -DePiep (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to User:DePiep, regardless of what class the template is, the design of the template is definitely not a navbox. This was raised here.  The nominator's rationale was sound but didn't explain the arbitrary and capricious nature of the template.Catchpoke (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Largest cities of Saudi Arabia || Saudi cities
 * Largest cities of South Korea || Most populous cities in South Korea
 * Largest cities of Spain || Cities in Spain
 * Largest cities of Switzerland || Cities in Switzerland
 * Largest cities of Thailand || Most populous cities in Thailand
 * Largest cities of Ukraine || Cities in Ukraine
 * Largest cities of the United Arab Emirates || UAE cities
 * Largest Urban Areas of the United Kingdom || UK cities
 * Largest cities of Vietnam || Most populous cities in Vietnam
 * }
 * --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 06:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Th4 please specify how you made this list. Templates using ? -DePiep (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Almost every country has template, but fewer have cities navboxes. This is a list of some countries that have both templates. I've listed them to show that the first type of templates has a rule for name, whilst navboxes do not. The first is used in the middle of country's main article, "geography of ...", and "demographics of ..." articles. The second is used in articles about cities themselves at the bottom as navigation between cities. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ouch, so the navbox-abuse is widespread. Likely, all Largest cities-using templates must be scrutinised. -DePiep (talk) 10:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What "abuse"? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * meta-template sets , but many of these in the list are used in article body (that is: content not WP:NAVBOX). As I described for the nominated . By now, after all the explanation, can you agree that  such a   can not be in article body? -DePiep (talk) 11:29, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I don't understand Meta-Wiki. What you are talking about is a different narrow topic about formatting. Perhaps you should raise this question at Largest cities talk page so class be changed. But that definetly can not be a rationale for deletion/merge of this template alone. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * bluntly now: is a 'meta-template': used as a sub-template/tool in other templates (like in ). Then since it is used, the ".. Spain" template is 'contaminated'. IOW: any template using template  IS a navbox per  . The "... Spain" template is too. Is what meta says. -DePiep (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to User:DePiep, regardless of what class the template is, the design of the template is definitely not a navbox. This was raised here.  The nominator's rationale was sound but didn't explain the arbitrary and capricious nature of the template.Catchpoke (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Th4 please specify how you made this list. Templates using ? -DePiep (talk) 18:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Almost every country has template, but fewer have cities navboxes. This is a list of some countries that have both templates. I've listed them to show that the first type of templates has a rule for name, whilst navboxes do not. The first is used in the middle of country's main article, "geography of ...", and "demographics of ..." articles. The second is used in articles about cities themselves at the bottom as navigation between cities. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ouch, so the navbox-abuse is widespread. Likely, all Largest cities-using templates must be scrutinised. -DePiep (talk) 10:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What "abuse"? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * meta-template sets , but many of these in the list are used in article body (that is: content not WP:NAVBOX). As I described for the nominated . By now, after all the explanation, can you agree that  such a   can not be in article body? -DePiep (talk) 11:29, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I don't understand Meta-Wiki. What you are talking about is a different narrow topic about formatting. Perhaps you should raise this question at Largest cities talk page so class be changed. But that definetly can not be a rationale for deletion/merge of this template alone. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * bluntly now: is a 'meta-template': used as a sub-template/tool in other templates (like in ). Then since it is used, the ".. Spain" template is 'contaminated'. IOW: any template using template  IS a navbox per  . The "... Spain" template is too. Is what meta says. -DePiep (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to User:DePiep, regardless of what class the template is, the design of the template is definitely not a navbox. This was raised here.  The nominator's rationale was sound but didn't explain the arbitrary and capricious nature of the template.Catchpoke (talk) 00:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: At this talk, is WP:CANVASsing and expressing BF.  -DePiep (talk) 16:36, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * He also posted the same message on gidonb's, Number 57's, and WarKosign's talk pages. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * IMO these three are not canvassing. They are neutrally formulated, like by using Tfdnotice (compare the non-neutral text in the diff I gave). That is the same message one puts at the creator's talkpage etc. Pls consider withdrawing presenting these as canvas-claim? -DePiep (talk) 20:05, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, as it turns out Triggerhippie is the creator of the template we're discussing. But what is odd out of those three editors which I've linked above where he posted the message, aside from yourself, only gidonb who has participated in this discussion has not once edited that template. Unless he uses an alternate account, which unlike his accusation against me and Catchpoke, does not count as sockpuppetry. And the only reason I haven't accused you, DePiep, of being part of TH's canvassing, aside from the fact you have edited the template, is because you've shown civility, whereas these two have not. It's only fair to assume such a thing. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Having edited is not a criterium for engaging in this TfD. Though, gidinb did edit the other template 2y ago . Literally by claiming it was 'politicized' while turning it POV undiscussed . I repeat: your links do not show canvassing. -DePiep (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Reacting here since I was mentioned. I believe I am the editor of with the most edits. I do not recall editing the other template. There definitely are geography templates that I have not yet edited. gidonb (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Then why did TH post a message on your talk page informing of this TfD on a template you've never edited? And why have you accused sockpuppetry against me and Catchpoke? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:59, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how Triggerhippie4 selected who to notify. I hope frequent editors of both templates. It would explain how they got to me. The rest does not belong here. gidonb (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The rest kind of does because it came as a result of this discussion. But please provide evidence on the right discussion page or recant it. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 21:18, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WarKosign is the main contributor to Largest cities of Israel and its talk page, besides myself. Number 57 is responsible for Israel populations on which that template is relying on. Gidonb and DePiep are main contributors to Largest Israeli cities and its talk page. That's why I notified these users. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 06:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Strange that you only reply here on a sidetrack, . You have not answered the OP: you canvassed, expressing BF . -DePiep (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep This does not serve the same purpose as the navbox so should not be replaced by it. There is precedence for the use of such templates as demonstrated by others here. Contrary to the opinion of, this should not be replaced by a table, as it is used in 3 articles and therefore a template is preferred to prevent duplication (actually triplication) errors, which Gonnym should understand from his experience in the TV project where we regularly transclude series overview tables to avoid duplication errors. That it may not be visible on some mobile devices is unfortunate but the reality is that not everything can be fully supported. This template provides additional information that is not critical so the fact that it is not viewable on some devices is not critical. That said, I can definitely see the template on My Samsung Galaxy S10 so if you are using an antiquated device that cannot see the template, maybe you should blame the device and not the template. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 11:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Responding since you pinged me. Since you mentioned TV tables, they are all always displayed on mobile. Even sport result tables which are transcluded on several pages are displayed on mobile. This template was badly constructed and no one has yet given one valid reason why it can't be changed to something better such as one option given above. Gonnym (talk) 12:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to have to stop courtesy pings. ;) I don't see how this template was badly constructed given that it's using a base template used by multiple other articles. As I said, the table appears on my Samsung device so let's not blame the template. Blame the devices that can't see it. I see no need to change this template. It performs its desired task using a base template created specifically for this purpose so it's really up to the "No" voters to show why it shouldn't be used. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 18:22, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The "No" voters have stated their reasons but I find some of your statements contradictory:
 * "that it may not be visible on some mobile devices is unfortunate but the reality is that not everything can be fully supported"? User:Gonnym said that it can be changed to something better.
 * "this template provides additional information that is not critical so the fact that it is not viewable on some devices is not critical" Isn't this ridiculous simply because there's no need to improve this template?Catchpoke (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. Serves a different purpose than Largest Israeli cities which is a navbox (navigation template) at the bottom of many articles to link related articles. Largest cities of Israel is used appropriately as article content in Israel, Demographics of Israel and Geography of Israel. It shows the rank, district and population of the cities, something a navbox doesn't. Whether it's currently a navbox is a matter of definition. It has  but doesn't satisfy the definition in WP:NAVBOX and Navigation template which is about usage.   should be removed from the template. Assigning any value to this parameter causes Largest cities to add  . This makes it look like a navbox (without using navbox) and hides it from the mobile version in mainspace (not on the template page). I was notified by Triggerhippie4 at User talk:PrimeHunter. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:13, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If 'class' parameter is wrong, then maybe broader action should be taken? Because currently absolute majority of such templates use either "navbox" or "list", that's almost in every country's main article. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 12:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. -DePiep (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am looking at Templates for discussion/Log/2012 October 30 and I note one of the rationales for deletion for both templates was that it was too fine-grained. What sort of policy states only national level templates should be kept?Catchpoke (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * None whatsoever. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:20, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep, but fix the classes so that it appears as a standard uncollapsed table on mobile. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 14:14, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * keep, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ALargest_cities_of_Israel&type=revision&diff=1024934690&oldid=1024048931 fixing the navbox class] is easy and perhaps should be the default. Frietjes (talk) 20:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Motorways and Trunk Roads in England

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. Izno (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2021 (UTC) Propose merging Template:Motorways and Trunk Roads in England with Template:Motorways in the United Kingdom.
 * Motorways and Trunk Roads in England
 * Motorways in the United Kingdom

These look like they are closely related, so I wonder whether they could be merged. If not merged, Motorways and Trunk Roads in England should probably be renamed to Highways England as that seems to be the actual topic of the navbox (to add more confusion, the headline of the template is neither of those but rather "Strategic road network in England"). 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 16:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Motorways and Trunk Roads in England. Motorways in the United Kingdom has existed for 15 years, covers motorways in the whole UK (not just England), an easy-to-grasp subject with easy-to-grasp subgroups. Motorways and Trunk Roads in England was created in 2018 and covers all roads in England (not UK) that are maintained by Highways England, grouped by Highways England's own internal management structure. This is a much less obvious subject matter (and subgrouping) which I would suggest is of little interest to most of our readers except for employees of Highways England. So I'd suggest deletion, but if deletion isn't agreed I'd oppose merger as the two templates cover very different subject matters, and rename it "Roads maintained by Highways England". --  Dr Greg  talk 12:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Do nothing. The Motorways and Trunk Roads in England template describes trunk roads in England and who manages them like Motorways and Trunk Roads in Wales does for Wales. RichardHC, 2 May 2021, 20:27 BST

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 01:44, 4 May 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 21:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have invited members of WikiProject United Kingdom and WikiProject Highways to comment. --  Dr Greg  talk 22:32, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. as is I'm aware of the various disussions on us of England. versus UK, and I don't think we should try to pre-empt them here, evenfor something as minor as this.  DGG ( talk ) 23:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Contra dance

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 12:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC) Navbox which fails the "rule of five" and contains only links that are already present in the articles concerned. User:GKFXtalk 20:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Contra dance
 * (Speaking as someone with subject expertise) It's definitely a remnant of an older era in which sidebar usage wasn't as standardized as it is these days. IAR, I kinda like it, as there are three main contra dance articles, and it makes it a lot easier to navigate between them than just relying on the links in the body. If we wanted to expand rather than delete it, we could add pages like Country Dance and Song Society (umbrella organization for contra dance groups in the U.S.) and Flurry Festival (annual festival with contra dancing as main attraction). I'm also hoping to launch Draft:Money Musk (a specific notable contra dance) at some point. Overall, idk; the whole area is in need of a lot of improvement, and it's hard to tell at this point what the best ultimate structure for it will be. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Wow it's being nominated again for the first time in fourteen years. This is a valid argument for deletion. It's too short to justify keeping it. The articles about form and choreography are linked to the mainspace Contra dance article. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. --Izno (talk) 16:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
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Template:Infobox African Games Algeria
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC) Following this discussion the meta-templates storing information such as this one were deleted (including those for Algeria at the Olympics, Paralympics, and Aquatics). Not sure how, but this template managed to escape that deletion run, so really all that's necessary is a subst and delete per the precedent set by the previous discussion. Primefac (talk) 01:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Infobox African Games Algeria


 * Delete The infobox,, is the standard for countries in articles about their participation in international sporting events. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Good catch Primefac. – Ianblair23 (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
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4TeamBrackets
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk) 12:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC) Unused after replaced with. –Aidan721 (talk) 01:23, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 4TeamBracket-2legs-with 3rd
 * 4TeamBracket-2legsExceptFinalwith3rd
 * 4TeamBracket-2legFinal
 * 4TeamBracket-2LegFinal
 * 4TeamBracket-Tennis53
 * 4TeamBracket-Tennis35-with third
 * 4TeamBracket-Tennis3-with seven


 * Delete per nomination. Just like the other team bracket templates from the more recent discussions in the past few days. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination. --Wolbo (talk) 14:50, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).