Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 May 24



Template:Thinspace

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Withdrawn by proposer (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 17:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC) Propose merging Template:Thinspace with Template:Thin space.
 * Thinspace
 * Thin space

Template:Thinspace does not appear to do anything special that Template:Thin space does not already handle. I opened a discussion nearly 3 weeks ago at the proposed merge destination Talk page, pinging each template creator, with no reply as yet. — Christopher, Sheridan, OR (talk) 16:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Their functionality is quite different.
 * Thinspace is for formatting a list of items separated by .  It takes multiple parameters.
 * Thin space just emits a single, set to not wrap.  It takes no parameters.
 * The /docs should be updated to explain the difference. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 16:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you; I had asked that very question, but with no reply. My alternate suggestion was to add a notation somewhere near the top of each template, so as to avoid future confusion. — Christopher, Sheridan, OR (talk) 17:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @User:DeNoel/Christopher, Sheridan, OR: if your concerns have been resolved, would you like to withdraw the nomination? -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Withdrawing the proposed merge sounds appropriate. I'm afraid I didn't see instructions for doing so on the Project page. Do I only have to make clear my intention to withdraw the proposal, or are there specific steps not outlined at Templates for discussion? — Christopher, Sheridan, OR (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Total lunar eclipse contacts

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was relisted on 2021 June 2. (non-admin closure)  dud  hhr  Contribs 04:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Total_lunar_eclipse_contacts
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Coca-Cola Red Sparks squad

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC) Coca-Cola Red Sparks team was disbanded at the end of the 2021 season, so the current squad template is no longer needed. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 11:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Coca-Cola Red Sparks squad
 * Delete per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete I have nominated the entire article related to this template for deletion as non-notable. Both should probably go, as far as I can tell.  A loose necktie (talk) 14:30, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The team is certainly notable, it's played in the top tier or second tier of Japanese rugby for the entirety of its history. There's plenty of coverage of the team online. Large numbers of the Japanese rugby teams are company teams (see Panasonic Wild Knights or Suntory Sungoliath this years finalists for example), they have professional players playing for them not just company staff playing muck about stuff. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 14:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:August 2020 Scottish Conservative Party leadership election

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC) per WP:NENAN's "rule of five": these templates have fewer than five navigable links in addition to the main article. August 2020 Scottish Conservative Party leadership election has main+2, and Scottish Conservative Party leadership election, 2020 has main+3. Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * August 2020 Scottish Conservative Party leadership election
 * Scottish Conservative Party leadership election, 2020


 * Delete both Fails notability. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 14:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Constlk

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. Numerically the discussion was evenly divided between keep and delete. I can see, roughly, two deletion rationales being made in the discussion: that the page title is inappropriate and that the template has served its purpose. Editors who preferred to keep the template argued it has a purpose that provides editor convenience. Ultimately, there is no consensus to delete this template. Merging or retitling can be done or discussed in the usual ways, elsewhere. (non-admin closure) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:07, 6 June 2021 (UTC) This is a simple template, used to create links to constituencies of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom. It is transcluded on about 300 pages.
 * Constlk
 * Constituency link

Every constituency article uses a standard disambiguator, so the template just adds the dab and pipes the link:

e.g.   →

These article titles have been stable since 2006, so there is no need to keep them wrapped in a template. All current uses should be substed, which in the example above will expand  to

I have no strong view on whether the template should be kept, or tagged as always-substitute. It is not widely used, but if somebody finds it useful then it seem to me to be a bit of tossup whether to keep it. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)  (Preceding two sentences struck because discussion revealed how the ambiguity of these titles can be resolved only by destroying the brevity which is their raison d'etre. I now see no alternative to deletion. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 14:49, 24 May 2021 (UTC))
 * Note: I have just found Template:Constituency link, and added it to this nomination. It offers identical functionality, but was created in 2006.  It is used in only 11 articles. Its slightly more verbose name has the same problem of massive ambiguity. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:45, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment if kept it needs to be renamed, since the UK is not the only country in the world. rename to UKconstlk, replace all instances, and delete the current name. -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 04:20, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Very good point, but UKconstlk is insufficient disambiguation. Within the United Kingdom, there have been in the last 100 years constituencies for at least eight different parliamentary chambers or Assemblies:
 * The House of Commons of the United Kingdom, at Westminster
 * The House of Commons of Northern Ireland, at Stormont 1921–1973
 * The House of Commons of Southern Ireland, in Dublin 1921–1922
 * The Scottish Parliament, in Edinburgh 1999–present
 * The Senedd, in Cardiff 1999–present
 * The European Parliament, 1979–2020
 * The Northern Ireland Assembly, 1973–1974, 1982–1986, and 1999–present
 * The London Assembly, 2000–present
 * This template serves only the first item on that list, i.e. House of Commons of the United Kingdom at Westminster ... but its massively ambiguous name could apply to any of them. So if kept, it should be renamed to unambiguously describe its actual function: Template:Parliament of the United Kingdom constituency link or Template:House of Commons of the United Kingdom constituency link.
 * However, the verbosity of an unambiguous title destroys the brevity which is the sole source of the convenience sought by its creator @Charles Matthews. Since there is no way of squaring that circle, the remedy is deletion. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:24, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, the creation of the template dates from 2013, and as far as I know none of the other corresponding templates has been set up. This is more like a pre-emptive strike, than a "very good point" (from an IP editor who has been here a week). Charles Matthews (talk) 09:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, you're a clever man. So why does your reply raise the red herring of the comment being by an IP, but evade the problem I identified: that removing the ambiguity in the title creates verbosity which destroys the brevity that prompted you to create the template in the first place? --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * On the naming of the template, it could be westconstlk (concise form) at need. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Do I really need to point out how "west" is an ambiguous abbreviation, so westconstlk remains ambiguous as well as deeply obscure? -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 10:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

But thank you for not opposing substing it. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. I created it, indeed a simple template, as a time-saver. It saves me time. I saw it then, as now, as a legitimate use of the template system. It's just a macro. I would say "not broken don't fix". No case made so far. Charles Matthews (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, if it's just a macro, why not subst it? -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 07:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the onus is on the proposer. If someone wants to make a bot job of replacing it, I don't care. In typical text like "MP for Lostwithiel, Bossiney and Camelford" using constlk is convenient and you'd not be making it more convenient, but less. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, I strongly disagree that an obscure and ambiguously-named template is more convenient for anyone other than the editor who uses it as a personal macro instead of simply pasting the dab from a clipboard manager.  The effect of the usual piped link is clear is the page markup, which the template is not.
 * See my comment that a fresh start to a deletion discussion would have been clarifying. But thank you for the strike-through. Adding Constituency link also identifies a redundancy, which is valuable also. I think you might have notified User:Adam37 about that. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * My metric here is my keystrokes. My time. My volunteer time. It is potentially useful for anyone who doesn't want to type "(UK Parliament constituency)" (28 keystrokes). You bring in other considerations. I rest my case. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, you would have fewer keystrokes if you used a clipboard manager, so deletion creates no burden on your time. However, an obscure and ambiguously-named template is a burden on other editors. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For heaven's sake, my workflow and use of technology is really my business rather than yours? Closing admin please note. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, you chose to make your workflow an issue in this discussion. Having made that choice, please have the civility to refrain from attacking me for responding to the flaws in your claims about your workflow. Thank you. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 09:50, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I made my time an issue. I'm working on another wiki right now, having created s:Alumni Oxonienses: the Members of the University of Oxford, 1715-1886/Wingfield-Baker, Richard Baker as one of a batch. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed. You made your time an issue, so other editors are entitled to reply that your own personal ambiguous template is not needed to save your time, because alternative approaches are available which save you more time, and which avoid littering articles with your personal macro. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 10:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: BHG identified an issue with the naming of the template which is clearly an issue. Having ambiguous template names in article is always bad as it makes the editing of editors harder as they now also need to investigate what it does. Having the title be clear makes it longer, which makes it less useful as a fast template. --Gonnym (talk) 10:12, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comments: Nothing is clear. I have nominated this discussion at WP:CR because we'd do better with a fresh start.


 * 1) If the template is substituted, the disambiguation issue as formulated by Gonnym goes away.
 * 2) If 67.70.27.180 was unaware of that, which seems possible, my comment was scarcely irrelevant.
 * 3) If BHG says "But thank you for not opposing substing it", why does she also say "the remedy is deletion"?


 * So far we have my keep vote. If this is a deletion discussion, can we please have a rationale based on WP:TFD? Preferably on a fresh page.


 * My attitude to subst is that "subst:" is six more keystrokes. half a loaf is better than none. It might be better to discuss that, than treat Charles to a tech interview 1990s-style based on a trick question. As the OP wrote "if somebody finds it useful then it seem to me to be a bit of tossup whether to keep it". Charles Matthews (talk) 13:23, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, in regard to your three numbered points:
 * 1) and 2) Substing does not resolve the ambiguity problem. Substing current uses leaves us with the problem that the ambiguous name invites misuse.
 * 3) I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that you are being intentionally disingenuous when you write If BHG says "But thank you for not opposing substing it", why does she also say "the remedy is deletion"?. I thanked you for not opposing substitution because that is at least some improvement, by removing the existing uses.  I still prefer deletion, because after replying to you I considered the IP's point about ambiguity, and I realised that resolving the ambiguity would destroy the brevity which is the template's raison d'etre.  That made me shift my view away from the ambivalence about deletion which I had expressed in the nomination. My reasoning is clearly set out above in my comment of 09:24, 24 May, which you chose to ignore in favour of moaning that an IP had identified the ambiguity. It is particularly disingenuous of you to quote from a part of the nomination where my reasoning has explicitly been superseded due to do things I learned in discussion. I will now strike that part of the nom. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 14:45, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete both Here's a reason based on WP:TFD: The template violates some part of the template namespace guidelines, and can't be altered to be in compliance.. This template violates the template namespace guideline Template function should be clear from the template name [...], and any altering of the template to be in compliance with that guideline (such as BrownHairedGirl's proposed move to Parliament of the United Kingdom constituency link) would defeat the point of this template existing entirely. * Pppery * it has begun... 13:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * And why do you say that? I use Template:Person categories all the time as l substituted. My point #1 was that subst would make that whole line of argument go away. I think you will have a bad time if you extend your reasoning to Template:HMS, another abbreviated "typing shortcut", by the way. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, that pointer to another ambiguously-named template is a classic "other crap exists" argument. It's the daft notion that one unfixed problem justifies not fixing every other similar problem. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 14:56, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It was also an illustration of where the logic leads. But since I anyway have no problem with having constlk moved to Parliament of the United Kingdom constituency link leaving a redirect, could you tell me what your problem with that is? In terms of WP:TFD. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, do I really need to explain to you that an ambiguously-titled redirect breaches WP:RFD #2?
 * Well, yes, you are clearly assuming the scope of that guideline extends to template space. A new one to me. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, your insistence on WP:TFD is misplaced. That guidance explicitly says Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by consensus here. So TFD will allow deletion on the basis of a consensus here that each of these templates cannot avoid being either 1) named ambiguously, or 2) so verbosely-named that its raison d'etre is destroyed. So far, that seems to be the emerging consensus, and if he closer determines that's the outcome, it is a valid reason to delete.
 * Well, yes, but, but. You do need the rationale for the first point to delete the redirect, and I don't see that, and if the redirect has standing then the raison d'être is good in my view. That is simply for moving the template to a verbose name. Anyway we'd have a cleaner process if the template was moved, and then the deletion of the redirect could be at RfD.
 * But the compromise has always been that substing is required. As you pointed out, it is not something I opposed, though it was in tension with the raison d'être. It does not undermine the raison d'être. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews: I do not presume to know your motives. But I do note that if your intention was to deploy an attrition strategy, then  your repeated obfuscations and your desire to start a second discussion at another venue about your own personal macro would be an effective way of WP:Gaming the system. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And I am very surprised that you are making such a stand on your personal macro when a simple alternative is available to you. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 16:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There are many surprising things about this whole discussion, frankly. You could have had my view on constlk for the asking. If you rely on consensus here, I hope there will be sounder process and logic than we have had so far. If you really think "ambiguous" template redirections are to be deprecated, across the board, that is a major can of worms in my view. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Charles Matthews, the surprising aspects of this dicsusssion are your repeated obfuscations, evasions, and misrepresentations, and your nasty little effort to persuade the closer to draw adverse conclusions from the fact that I responded to your own decision to make your workflow an issue.
 * Your comment hat You could have had my view on constlk for the asking is particularly bizarre. You have expressed views at great length here, and your implication that I erred in some way by bringing this straight to TFD is pure WP:OWNership. (Hint: it's not only your view that matters.  See WP:Consensus.) --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:02, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Good grief. WP:AGF. WP:CIVIL. Voting at 1 keep, 1 delete. Third opinion or suchlike is indicated here. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For goodness sake, Charles, take responsibility for your actions. If you play those games then don't cry "uncivil" and "agf" when being called out on your misconduct. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 20:33, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Allegations: alleging things does not make them true. I'm not impressed. I've answered you on canvassing on my User Talk. Charles Matthews (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Charles, I am unimpressed by your canvassing, as well as by the rest of your misconduct here. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 13:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Dudes, the Brown Haired Girl is going to be right here... She just is.  And I can't and wouldn't disagree with her.  A loose necktie (talk) 14:35, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: to offer a more peaceful solution for Charles Matthews, make the template a subst always template and move it to your user space. There you can name it whatever you like and still keep the functionality you want for editing. --Gonnym (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That would be fine by me. A userspace template which is always substed avoids the problems identified above. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:12, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Fine with me as well, although I note that  (relying on User:AnomieBOT's TemplateSubster task to do the substing), is only two characters shorter than   (using the Pipe trick). * Pppery * it has begun...  18:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete having substed. Seems to have served its purpose of saving minutes of time in lists. And long enough. As an aside a totally unambiguous name is not needed; the argument C. Matthews makes about HMS is a great example; UK still has a very clear meaning next to constituency, a natural English-language meaning; only a strained lawyer looking for a loophole would reach for a lesser meaning. Branding the admitted snap and grab done by HMS as crap is disrespectful and rather a long-winded philosophy. Some reach for total disambiguation others realise that is a tired fantasy. Many long words themselves have many a fanciful meaning and become soon over-used and mis-used the sooner you bandy them about. Sorry for the obiter but it is a very strong belief on that score I hold. Simplicity & graphic fairness my law school would approve, linked acronyms too; total disambiguation no. I have small government, be-one-of-the-people beliefs. Orwell & Alice in Wonderland refers. It's for the better. Shorter.- Adam37 Talk  20:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Deryck: on the substance, why on earth would you want to keep two template with identical functionality? There is not a single character of difference in their output. As to ambiguity, the problem is not that the template title has an alternative use. The problem is that the title does not accurately describe the function of the template, which creates a risk of misuse. For example Almond Valley is a constituency in the UK, but it is not a UK Parliament constituency ... and a template whose title doesn't clarify the actual purpose is likely to be misused: see →. Consider also cases where two constituencies share the same name. For example, Alasdair Allan's constituency is Na h-Eileanan an Iar ... but while creates a bluelink, it's the wrong bluelink:. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 00:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep both, possibly rationalize and/or move with redirect. As Charles argued, this template is a useful shorthand for a very common disambiguator. I'm not saying substitution is inappropriate, but I would like to argue that it is unnecessary. Usually the main reason to delete shorthand templates is title ambiguity; in this case the title is ambiguous (what set of constituencies?) but nobody has suggested an alternative use for this template title. If Charles wants a shorthand template, he can have it. Deryck C. 21:44, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For transparency, it would have been better if you had stated that you got a personal message from Charles Matthews regarding this discussion, which was not in a neutral tone. --Gonnym (talk) 22:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For the record, here is the edit in which Charles Matthews WP:CANVASSed Deryck Chan.
 * I'm responding only to the substance of these two redirects - what has been said about canvassing has been said and I make no excuse. One template uses parameter whereas the other uses , hence my suggestion to "rationalize". As for ambiguity between different types of constituencies in the UK, this is no different from the point about possible shorthand ambiguity with constituencies in other countries. But no alternative use of the shorthand has been put forward so I don't see any pressing need to delete the shorthand. Deryck C. 15:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * @Deryck, why this focus on no alternative use of the shorthand? The problem is not some competing use for the title. The problem is that as I illustrated above, the ambiguity of the shorthand invites unintended misuse which will create errors such as  → . --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've read the conversation and tried finding a compromise but it seems this discussion needs a firm result. The template name is unclear and ambiguous, having it in article text is the worst possible outcome as other editors won't know what it does. Moving it to a new title which makes it clear is a possible outcome, but then that title is longer then just writing the actual title. Leaving a redirect is also something I oppose, as the IP pointed out, the UK isn't the only place in the world with a constituency and as BHG pointed out, moving it to a name with UK is also unhelpful as that can mean a number of different UK ones. --Gonnym (talk) 22:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with the middle part of your comment - I think the shorthand has value, but if we don't keep the shorthand then we should delete the whole lot, since there is no meaningful, unambiguous shorthand that is shorter than typing out the expanded wikitext with piping. Deryck C. 15:48, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Deryck unless someone can identify such a meaningful, unambiguous shorthand (and get some sort of consensus that it really is both meaningful and unambiguous), then I think that discussion of it is a distraction. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:19, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually there could perfectly well be a worldwide and all times electoral district link with two parameters, the second being the electoral district name. Make the first a number. Use as subst:edlk.Charles Matthews (talk) 06:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Apart from the obvious usability barrier of requiring editors to learn some numbering system (or even requiring them to learn the ISO country codes), the idea of global template is not viable because not all countries have a consistent naming system for constituencies/electoral districts. Also, any such system would be highly complex because it would need to include constituencies for sub-national parliaments (because there omission would be confusing), and also some sort of error-checking.
 * The only countries that I am aware of for which en.wp has a consistent naming system are Ireland and the UK (there may be others, but I haven't spotted them). Canada does not always add a dab, and India uses a frustratingly wide variety of dabs.
 * The complexity of any such system seems to me to completely disproportionate for the issue at hand. A quick search usually finds any extant constituency article very easily, and in the case of the parliaments+assemblies in the UK and Ireland, the standardised disambiguators remove the need for lookup.
 * AFAICS, only one editor uses either of these templates, so I need to expand the coverage of a concept for which there appears to be only one customer. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * On the contrary. Perhaps you do not understand that this would (a) remove the extensive discussion of disambiguation which is clouding the technical issue here, and (b) would constitute a single template that would be expandable at need, with the addition of a single line of code for each new class of electoral districts. In other words an incremental system. I commend it here because it would fold in constlk to get started, supplying model code. Use cases occur every time someone wants compile a list of electoral districts. Please reconsider. There is no need for anyone to learn any numerical code not relevant to their current needs, and the base template code would be the reference. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, Charles, perhaps you do not understand that using templates to add a disambiguator will work only if there is a consistent disambiguator ... which for most countries, there is not.
 * Perhaps you also do not understand that since you are the only editor who has expressed a desire to use such a template, you are advocating the creation of a solution to a non-problem. Everyone else seems happy to just find the name of the constituency article in the same way as they would find the name of any other article. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 19:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, there are many things that I do not understand about templates. If the problem is more complex, then complexity can be addressed from a baseline. Your form of answer suggests that there would be some further use cases on such a baseline.
 * I was going to ask you, since you do emphasise the "personal" nature of constlk, about the database work you did, before dubbing it my "personal macro". You helpfully said at the start that it is used on about 300 pages, and that is too many to go through by hand. Is this claim you make evidence-based? Has a query been run to detect other editors who may have added it?
 * ..."the only editor who has expressed a desire to use such a template"? Is that a fair comment on the discussion so far? There has been comment on meeting the concision point within constraints. I offer a technical proposal.
 * Look, and I was intending to put this elsewhere, we should distinguish the "X should die" aspects of what you are saying, which is a fairly common sort of argument that can become oppressive too easily, from the scope points, and the personalia. It is not a "non-problem" to find a concision-oriented template of a certain kind that satisfies desiderata brought up here. You don't like it - fine. Here we are at "Templates for discussion" having a discussion more complex perhaps than anticipated, and I have thought about WP:TFD #1 "can't be altered". Well, can be altered. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Charles, I have done a lot of work on making templates, some of then very complex.
 * On the basis of that experience, and on the basis of my knowledge of the naming conventions (or lack thereof), I have concluded that it is not possible to make the sort of wider template you suggest, and I have explained why.
 * Sadly, you have chosen to dismiss all of that as a don't like it objection, and similarly to dismiss my points about the fundamental redundancy of a template whose sole function is to add the same few characters each time. When an editor offers detailed reasons for objecting, your dismissal of that as don't like it is at best a rude misrepresentation.  Being as gentle as possible, your choice even now to dismiss my detailed evidence as "X should die" comes across as an unpleasantly aggressive attempt to deny the reality of what I have written.  Your decision to describe this straw man as "oppressive" is a doubling-down on the denialism, and it is at best thoroughly uncollegial.
 * It's every easy for you to assert as a mantra can be altered. But that is nothing more than an unevidenced assertion, which entirely ignores all the ways in which I have shown that alteration causes problems of viability.  In summary:
 * making a new name (even in shortened form) which is both meaningful unambiguous, reduces the character saving to such a tiny amount that the overheads of a template are unjustifiable
 * turning it into a multi-purpose template would be complex, would be viable in only a few cases, and would not solve any actual problem of editors seeking or apparently needing such a template. That's an expensive solution in search of a problem.
 * Making such an assertion in the face of the evidence is at best wishful thinking, and at worst an attempt to divert discussion away from the evidence.
 * Finally, I call it your "personal macro" because all of the evidence available supports that:
 * you yourself have described it as your macro
 * nobody else at this TFD has expressed a desire to use it
 * the editor who you canvassed to the discussion expressly based his support on solely on your use if Charles wants a shorthand template
 * The template has very low usage. There are 1,920 Westminster constituency articles, with a rough average of ~350 incoming links.  That's about 670,000 links, of which only 328 use these templates.  That 0.05% usage is evidence of very low demand.
 * No, I am not going to run wikiblame on each of 318 pages to determine if anyone else has ever used it. And your desire for such detailed evidence comes across as an attempt to create an unreasonably expensive evidential test to deflect attention from the evidence of no expression of interest, and low usage. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 16:52, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * PS: here is data I sampled to estimate a very rough average of the backlink count for constituency articles: Na h-Eileanan an Iar: 566; Salisbury: 563; Arfon: 199;Redditch: 188; Truro: 346: Lancaster: 358; Huddersfield: 288; Islington North: 555; Preston: 608.
 * From those numbers, I estimate 350 to be a very rough average of the number of backlinks per constituency article. If the dataset included all 1,920 constituency article, I think that the overall average would be in the range 300–400. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 16:56, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * My side of the story is on my User talk, for those who find it interesting. (tl;dr is pushback against prosecutorial rigmarole, but off-topic for this page.) The short version on "personal macro" is you decided it was a good stick with which to beat the template and me. More of said rigmarole. Oppressive. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:57, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that I posted on the substance of deletion proposal, and Charles Matthews has yet again replied with absolutely nothing on the substance, just a bogus accusation of oppression. This diversion from substance to bogus claims of victimhood has been Charles Matthews's modus operandi throughout what should have been a fairly simple discussion.
 * I came here to seek community consensus on a proposal to delete a template which I believe is at best pointless, and at worst mildly disruptive. Sadly, from the outset Charles Matthews took a WP:OWNership stance and a WP:BATTLEGROUND posture. That is demonstrated both in his failed procedural scams which I documented below, and in his statement here a good stick with which to beat: Charles has from the outset treated this deletion proposal as a personal attack on him and TFD as an inappropriate venue to discuss a template, and these two false premises are how he justifies his GAMEing and his bogus claims that providing evidenced reasons to delete a template is "oppressive". --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 11:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What about moving to Westminsterseat. The Redistribution of Seats Acts 1885 was good enough for Chartists and Reformers; it should be a good enough noun for us too. To hell with upper-class sophistry.- Adam37  Talk  19:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * that's the most terse abbreviation so far which isn't ambiguous. However, I am not so sure that it is meaningful to editors who are not politics wonks.
 * Also,  is only 7 character shorter than  .  There seems little point in keeping a "shortcut" which is barely shorter than the full thing. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 21:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * that's the most terse abbreviation so far which isn't ambiguous. However, I am not so sure that it is meaningful to editors who are not politics wonks.
 * Also,  is only 7 character shorter than  .  There seems little point in keeping a "shortcut" which is barely shorter than the full thing. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 21:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

The request was dismissed by User:Pppery. Deryck later made what might be read as a kindof indirect apology for the not disclosing the canvassing: what has been said about canvassing has been said and I make no excuse. In discussion on his talk, Charles Matthews claims to have been contacting Deryck solely in an admin capacity, but seems oblivious to the fact whatever either of them claims to have intended, the combined effect of his actions and Deryck's was the same as canvassing: Charles recruited a !vote.
 * Comment - I have no opinion concerning the template in question (feel free to read that as "I don't care", really). But I will say, for a discussion which so far seems to boil down to "It's useful" / "It's not useful in name/usage", there seems to be a lot of heat with little light. In particular, the ad hominum attacks, and accusing others of malevolent motivations really needs to stop. Please discuss the content, not each other. If this continues, any uninvolved admin, may take preventative actions/apply sanctions to address the disruption.  I believe you all care about this topic under discussion, just please do so civilly. - jc37 12:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note. Since deflections from substance have been raised, I note that there are at least 5 separate incidents in which Charles Matthews has unsuccessfully sought procedural ruses to derail this deletion discussion of a page which he created:
 * 09:37, 24 May 2021: Charles Matthews invites the closing admin to draw adverse inference from my comment on his workflow: my workflow and use of technology is really my business rather than yours? Closing admin please note. However, my comment was a direct response to Charles Matthews's own decision to make his personal workflow the sole issue, at 09:09[09:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)]: My metric here is my keystrokes. My time. My volunteer time. It is potentially useful for anyone who doesn't want to type "(UK Parliament constituency)" (28 keystrokes). You bring in other considerations. I rest my case.  That's attempted procedural entrapment.
 * 10:07, 24 May 2021: Charles Matthews makes a request at Closure requests posted only 9 hours after the discussion opened.
 * 17:05, 24 May 2021: Charles Matthews makes an attempt to shift the discussion to RFD: we'd have a cleaner process if the template was moved, and then the deletion of the redirect could be at RfD
 * 17:05, 24 May 2021: Charles Matthews objects to the deletion discussion taking place at TFD. He says that I should have made a personal request to him rather than seeking consensus at XFD: You could have had my view on constlk for the asking. If you rely on consensus here. Classic WP:OWNership, and apparent rejection of WP:Consensus.
 * 19:19, 24 May 2021: in his fourth attempt to challenge the venue, Charles Matthews asks admin Deryck Chan to close the discussion and move it to MFD. Charles's request to Charles mentions his post at WP:CR, but does not disclose that the request at WP:CR had been rejected. Deryck Chan wisely declined the request to close or move venue.
 * However, Deryck Chan then unwisely decided to make a substantive contribution to the TFD discussion in which Deryck did not disclose that he had revived a non-neutral notification. His comment was a clearly personal endorsement of Charles If Charles wants a shorthand template, he can have it.
 * Note to that on his talk, Charles Matthews has defended his various attempts to derail the consensus-forming process: Saying a TfD discussion should be somehow hermetically sealed by non-canvassing requirements is wonkery.
 * I cannot recall ever seeing admin making such sustained and unrepentant efforts to WP:GAME the system as Charles has made here. Some of my responses along the way have been firm, but such sustained WP:GAMEing needs clear responses. And that's before I get onto all the rest of Charles's misrepresentations etc.
 * Feel free to collapse the above, but it should be on record. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 18:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is your response to what jc37 said ("In particular, the ad hominum attacks, and accusing others of malevolent motivations really needs to stop. Please discuss the content, not each other."), it should indeed be on the record and not be collapsed. —Kusma (talk) 23:42, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Kusma, it is my reply to jc37's comment there seems to be a lot of heat with little light. I documented how the heat has been created largely by an extraordinary series of attempted procedural scams. I hope that this scamming and disruption will stop. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 03:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Is Naming conventions (UK Parliament constituencies)] this of any relevance or use to this discussion? doktorb wordsdeeds 05:59, 28 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. I encounter these types of shorthand templates often; they're an editor convenience and they do no harm. I do not understand how on earth so much drama resulted above from people who should know better. Mackensen (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * this one is:
 * a minor covenience to the (apparently lone) editor who uses it to save typing a few characters
 * an inconvenience to other editors who find it in markup, where its presence is less transparent than a direct link
 * a trap for unwary editors who may misuse the template because of its ambiguous name
 * I have documented above how this became a drama because the template's creator adopted a WP:OWNership stance and decided from outset to create drama. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 13:51, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "(apparently lone)" hh hmm I exist! I would't have edited the template unless I quite liked using it at the time!  I think if my workaround solution could be brought in then peace and concision would exist in total harmony.- Adam37  Talk  20:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete, I don't see any solution to the ambiguous name that is easier than just typing  and letting the backend software add the link text.  If this is kept under a different name, it should be autosubstituted by a bot to make the link target obvious. Plastikspork <sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ <sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)  14:02, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:TV Fool
<div class="boilerplate tfd vfd tfd-closed" style="background-color: #e3f9df; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete TV fool, but have TVQ relisted on 2021 June 4. Primefac (talk) 01:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * TV_Fool
 * TVQ
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).