Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe, BWV 22

Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe, BWV 22

 * This is the archived discussion of the TFAR nomination for the article below. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests). Please do not modify this page. 

The result was: scheduled for Today's featured article/February 7, 2015 by — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)



Jesus nahm zu sich die Zwölfe (Jesus gathered the twelve to Himself), BWV 22, is a church cantata by Johann Sebastian Bach, written for the last Sunday before Lent. He composed it as an audition piece for the position of director of church music at St. Thomas (pictured) in Leipzig, and first performed it in a church service there on 7 February 1723. The work begins with a scene from the Gospels in which Jesus predicts his suffering in Jerusalem. The unknown poet of the cantata text took the scene as a starting point for reflections in which the contemporary Christian takes the place of the disciples who do not understand what Jesus is telling them. The closing chorale is a stanza from Elisabeth Cruciger's "Herr Christ, der einig Gotts Sohn". The work, structured in five movements, shows that Bach had mastered the composition of a dramatic scene, an expressive aria with obbligato oboe, a recitative with strings, an exuberant dance, and a chorale in the style of Johann Kuhnau, his predecessor in Leipzig. Elements such as a "frame of biblical text and chorale around the operatic forms of aria and recitative" became standards for Bach's Leipzig cantatas and even his Passions.
 * Most recent similar article(s): 8 June 2014, BWV 172 for Pentecost.
 * Main editors: Gerda Arendt
 * Promoted: 2015
 * Reasons for nomination: The cantata was first performed on 7 February 1723. While the former cantata for Pentecost appeared on Pentecost, the importance of the liturgical meaning of the last Sunday before Lent changed since Bach's time, it's carnival now. However. to show the cantata on a Lenten Sunday while Leipzig had no music those Sundays also seems wrong. Therefore I suggest to stick with the first performance this time.
 * Support as nominator. Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - SchroCat (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. Summary of the lead section is great; I made minor changes. - Dank (push to talk) 23:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - Thomaskirche matched Thomaskantor better, and it's the one Thomaskirche people know in the world ;) . I added "successfully" to mention that he "won" the audition for which he was not a favourite candidate, didn't know how to squeeze in more about this, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your truckloads of work on this and other noms, Gerda. Foreign words are sometimes more precise than English words, but OTOH, in most lists of impediments to readability (particularly for a broader readership, such as we have for the Main Page), foreign and technical words are right at the top. "St. Thomas Church in Leipzig" is reasonably clear ... or am I wrong about that? "successfully" seemed implied to me by the rest of the text, and in that position in the sentence, it usually means something different (that he had tried and failed before, and now was successful). - Dank (push to talk)
 * Compromise: at St. Thomas? Looks more Catholic thank Protestant, though, at least to Germans ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Very nice. - Dank (push to talk) 21:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Image is unexplained in the blurb. In English, "the Twelve" is generally capitalized when referring to the Apostles (I've tweaked the article accordingly). BencherliteTalk 14:14, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That makes sense to me (though in general, capitalization of religious words is a vexed and neverending subject). Added "pictured". - Dank (push to talk) 15:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I reverted the cap, because the source for the quote doesn't have it, and not even the Gospel verse has it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking a lot about how to increase participation in questions of TFA text, and how to make things easy, transparent and fun. One rule of thumb: I don't want us to spend a lot of time arguing about things that professionals haven't been able to find consensus on, and the general topic of capitalization of religious terms is one of those areas. I don't have a preference on this particular question. I can tell you it's not as simple as "The source doesn't do it" ... it's a hard question. - Dank (push to talk) 21:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you misunderstood. By "the source doesn't do it" I meant we can't use the source in the article for the quote if we don't quote, we would have to use a different one. But then, looking at the King James version - the one I was ready to use instead - also has no cap, and think should be an authority ;) - I do use capitals when the source does, such "Of a Rose", when that rose is Mary. (and Protestant Bach would have said Mary, not St. Mary, in veneration, but not a Saint, - back to the church name.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:QUOTE, a quotation need not be typographically identical to the source. Changing capitalization is permitted when it does not change the meaning. In determining capitalization for the translation, I would follow the usage of English sources describing the cantata. For "the Twelve" generally, English sources about the Apostles. Knight of Truth (talk) 04:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The source used is an English source translating the cantata, the other translation has the same. Of the others, most have lowercase. - If our own bible source has lowercase, isn't that good support also? - I would need a serious reason for changing typography. when quoting, otherwise leave it as is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Support certainly.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)