Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 140

Unblocking discussion
In the last few days, there's been a big to-do at WP:AN after an admin unblocked someone who was blocked several weeks earlier as the result of a community discussion. Everyone's well aware that you mustn't unblock someone who's been banned by the community or by Arbcom (unless they've been unbanned, of course), but I don't think I've ever seen a firm statement on this kind of situation, and WP:BLOCK doesn't appear to address community-imposed blocks at all. Proposal, therefore: add something to WP:BLOCK covering this situation. I'd like to see one of the following, although probably with better wording: So...do you support the first, or the second, or a third option, or do you believe that we're best off with the status quo and not addressing this subject in WP:BLOCK? I'm not in favor of the status quo, of course, but I'm undecided between #1 and #2. Nyttend (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) Community-imposed blocks — the community may impose a block on a user, either for a period of time or indefinitely. Such a block is not a ban, but it must not be removed by an administrator without consensus from the community or instructions from the Arbitration Committee.
 * 2) Community-imposed blocks — the community may impose a block on a user, either for a period of time or indefinitely. Such a block is not a ban, so it may be removed by an administrator as if it were a block imposed by an individual administrator.
 * I'm with #1. Keeping "consensus from the community" somewhat vague is fine with me; typically such matters should be discussed at AN, IMO, but we don't need to stipulate everything. Oh, why? Because it is common sense: admins work at the behest of the community and with the fiat of that community: if the community decides it wants this or that editor blocked, no single admin should be undoing that without consulting said community. Drmies (talk) 17:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe WP:CONSENSUS already fills in the hole. No single editor should act against consensus with the usual exceptions.--v/r - TP 17:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * TParis, are you agreeing with Drmies, or do you prefer that we retain the status quo? Nyttend (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I generally oppose new policy. I think the status quo has worked for years and we shouldn't tie our hands just because it failed once.--v/r - TP 18:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks for the clarification.  Nyttend (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Option 1 - while it's true that consensus can change, you must show that it did (by a new discussion) before overriding a community decision. If it didn't, a single user certainly can't override thwe community. Notre that his applies to a community block, not a block to enforce a community ban. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 1 - let's formalize this best practice. But note this will prevent admins trying to rehabilitate these blocked editors via email and presenting this unblock (along with editing restrictions) as a fait accompli. --Neil N  talk to me 18:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3: community-imposed blocks are in fact community bans. That's really what we're discussing here. If the community has a discussion and decides that an editor is no longer welcome to edit, then that user is sitebanned. They can also be blocked to enforce the ban (and usually are) but there really is no such thing as a community-imposed block. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:09, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * And woe betide the administrator who unblocks a sitebanned user with no discussion (option 1). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * In other words, "Community-imposed blocks — the community may impose a block on a user, either for a period of time or indefinitely. Such a block is to be treated as a community ban for the duration of the block."  Does this reflect your intentions?  Nyttend (talk) 18:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. I argue that the community does not have the authority to hand out blocks - blocks are a technical function to prevent a user from editing, which can be used to enforce a ban, which the community can impose. I'm being pedantic, but we're talking about changes to a policy, and I would prefer "community-imposed blocks" not be a thing we invent here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, which is why I'm asking :-) Do you have a wording proposal?  I just want to avoid a close where people agree with the closer's decision ("of course consensus is in favor of that option") but dispute the wording that gets added.  Nyttend (talk) 18:24, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I suggest adding as a bullet below "unblocking will almost never be acceptable" similar to: Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * For reference, see Banning policy for an explanation of bans versus blocks. The community can reach a consensus agreement on an editing restriction; blocking is a tool to help implement the restriction. isaacl (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Option 2 Let's not pretend that "the community" (meaning people has reached a consensus) imposes blocks.  Instead it's usually some small number of people, usually at most a few dozen.  The block may or may not be justified, but that is independent of the process which imposed it, which usually involves a small number of people anyways.  If admins can be trusted to impose a block without asking the community every time, they can be trusted to unblock someone for same.  If we can't trust admins, then why give them the tools?  -- Jayron 32 18:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This is already covered by WP:UNBAN: community bans may be appealed to the community or the Arbitration Committee. isaacl (talk) 18:24, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Isaacl the technical issue here is "block" vs "ban". There is nothing written anywhere about an admin unblocking someone blocked by community consensus. Jytdog (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Blocking is a tool to implement a ban; the community can agree upon an editing restriction that requires a block to be carried out (see Banning policy and in particular, "Community bans and restrictions"). There is no "community block". isaacl (talk) 18:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * See below. The kind of blocks we are talking about are imposed to implement the close of a community discussion, where there is a consensus that this is what should happen. In these cases the block was not one admin's judgement. They are generally not treated as if they are one admin's judgement but there is no language in policy expressing this practice.  This is just bringing the writing in line with long standing practice. Jytdog (talk) 18:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * option 1 this is somewhat legislating clue but I reckon we need this spelled out since it involves use of the bit. Jytdog (talk) 18:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Ivanvector. I find his rationale convincing. Blocking is technical while banning is not. The community as a whole does not have technical skills, we have consensus. Administrators can enforce consensus through a technical measure, i.e. a block. This can be considered support for option 1 if no one else gets behind this level of hairsplitting, but I too think it is good to make policy specific in language. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Point of order Right now, we sometimes have community discussions that result in people being blocked without a ban being mentioned. If we're going to bring bans into this situation, we need to mention them explicitly (how will such a discussion be interpreted from a ban perspective), or we could (ironically) ban the concept of community-imposed blocks, with all such discussions being for temporary or indefinite site bans instead.  Nyttend (talk) 20:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Essentially, I would consider a block imposed by consensus of the community to be identical in every way that matters to a community imposed site ban. The procedure for overturning it should be the same. Regardless, administrators should never overturn community consensus on anything by unilateral action. Even if we would make some distinction between a "community block" and a "community ban", the decision to overturn it should also require community consensus in all cases. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:32, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's essentially my point. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. But the policy should make that clear. --Neil N  talk to me 20:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think this is covered by Banning policy, which is an exclusive list of the persons who may impose bans. #1 is the community. It also explicitly states that individual administrators may not impose bans (i.e. implying that admin sanctions are not bans). The text below WP:CBAN that you referred to in the next section is what should probably be tightened. CBAN is also the section which describes the method by which the community can formally enact a sanction ("community sanctions may be discussed ..." etc.). Also note that there is no section in WP:BLOCK or elsewhere that I know of which describes a method for community consensus to compel a sanction, suggesting in my mind that all community sanctions are bans. I definitely agree that, if this is the case, then the policy ought to state this explicitly to head off this exact problem in future. I'll have to think for a bit to formulate a proposal to change this, but I have IRL stuff to do for a bit. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:51, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Option 1 - An administrative action is carried out on the behalf of the community, therefore a block based on an explicit community decision should not be overturned by an individual administrator. I think the community should have the option to block a user as opposed to banning them. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 22:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Ivanvector. The "community" does not have a block button. We merely need to be careful in saying that we intend to ban when we intend to ban. As an attorney, I find this comparable to a jury-imposed jail sentence. The jury recommends a sentence, the judge orders it (typically in accordance with the jury's recommendation), and prison officials carry out the actual incarceration of the convict. The jurors do not take the convict home with them to personally imprison him. The idea of a community-imposed "block" sounds to me like the jurors deciding to keep the prisoner in one of their basements, rather than leaving that step to the jailer. bd2412  T 02:27, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Ivanvector. Optoin 1 and 2 do have merits but option 3 makes better sense. Blackmane (talk) 03:06, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 2 I believe option 2 is current WP policy per WP:CBAN: In some cases the community may have discussed an indefinite block and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community". A mere block isn't enough to be considered banned by the community, only a consensus in favor of not unblocking the user (in addition to the block) makes the person effectively banned by the community and cannot be undone by a single admin. The reason for this is that blocks are meant to be short term (unless used to enforce a ban). Once there is evidence that the person will not continue the disruptive behavior (such as a good faith acknowledgement of the problem and a reasonable claim to not do it again), the block should be lifted. Bans are meant to be long term, which is why it needs to require the community to agree to lift the ban. A block used to enforce a ban, falls under the ban and shouldn't be lifted but by consensus of the community. -Obsidi (talk) 04:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3. There is no difference between a block and a ban, if it is imposed based on community consensus. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  ♠ 04:34, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 - (I would have agreed with Option 1 until Ivanvector brought up #3) The underlining theory is that while single admins have a great deal of authority and power to operate on their own, there are certain restraints upon them. For instance, they cannot undo a checkuser block, they cannot act against WMF policy, they cannot act against an ArbCom decision (although they have fairly wide latitude in imposing penalties based on ArbCom decisions) and, pertinent here, they cannot override the will of the community, once that will has been properly expressed and then implemented by an admin. If they disagree with what the community has decided, they, like any other editor, can bring up their objections in a new discussion, to see if consensus has changed, or if they can change it by argumentation, but once the community has decided, they can no longer use their admin powers to impose their own judgment counter to that of the collective. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:01, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Beyond My Ken. Remember WP:NOBIGDEAL? An admin has certain tools; they do not have a mandate to override a valid community decision. If an admin wants to change the outcome of such a decision, let them join the queue like everyone else. Johnuniq (talk) 05:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 - A block is just a technical feature. A ban is the formal social decision to exclude someone. A community-sanctioned block is and always has been considered a ban&mdash;what was a block has become a community consensus to formally exclude the blocked user. Drawing a distinction between a ban and a community-imposed block is unnecessarily confusing and, frankly, wrong. S warm   ♠  06:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Swarm, King of Hearts, Beyond My Ken et al. There is not such thing as a community block - a block can only be imposed by a single administrator. If it was imposed per the consensus of a community discussion, then the block is enforcing a community ban. Thryduulf (talk) 12:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 2 The fact is that many of these decisions are made by half a dozen users and often the same users. Just look at the case that spawned this proposal: Riceissa.  Many of these blocks/bans can hardly be called a community consensus with so few users.  We really need administrative review of blocks imposed by so few users.--I am One of Many (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3. Functionally, a block imposed by the community is a community ban, per Thryduulf. There's no good reason why a discussion cannot be held at AN to review these blocks. Patar knight - chat/contributions 00:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 2. If it's not a ban, why should the unblock process be treated as though it were a ban appeal? In such cases, the "community" (i.e. a handful of users in each case) is acting as if it were an individual administrator making the block, just with some feedback from a few others. The unblock should be no different. Also, not addressing the subject just makes things confusing. epicgenius (talk) 20:57, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 2 When there is a consensus to block, admin need to carefully consider the circumstances of that consensus, but should be able to unblock if the situation has changed sufficiently that the previous consensus is no longer applicable. If there has been a formal unblock request, and it resulted in a decision not to unblock, it is different, but if it was a very quick discussion by just a few editors, followed by an indef block close, it shouldn't require a bunch of bureaucracy to reverse. Monty  845  02:53, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 a community block should be treated as a ban. jcc (tea and biscuits) 17:51, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3, which correctly describes the precise way that the process works. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 per Ivanvector For all intents and purposes, a WP:CBAN is a community block, minus the technical ability to enforce said block. Most editors who are banned by the community will then be blocked as a way to enforce the ban.  I'd also like to point out that this view is already supported in the opening paragraphs of WP:BAN: Bans are different from blocks, which are used by administrators to technically prevent a user account or IP address from editing Wikipedia. Blocks are used chiefly to deal with immediate problems such as vandalism or edit warring. A ban, on the other hand, does not technically prevent editing; however, blocks may be used to enforce bans.  —   Gestrid  ( talk ) 04:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure between 1 and 3, but NOT option 2. It invokes a logic used nowhere else on Wikipedia. The community cannot collectively press the "delete" button, but an admin still isn't allowed to restore an XfD'd page without consensus. The community cannot collectively press the "move" button on certain pages, but an admin still isn't allowed to revert an RM without consensus. The community cannot collectively change a user's permissions, but a 'crat still isn't allowed to unilaterally +sysop or desysop. (And yes, I know there are IAR exceptions to all of these.) It makes no sense to say that, just because the community cannot collectively press the "block" button, in this one case an administrator is free to overturn a community decision at will.
 * One more thought: If option 3 prevails here, we will have to reconsider threads where there is ongoing discussion of a community-imposed block and then an admin steps in and issues the block under their own authority. Currently, such threads are usually hatted, unless there are objections to the admin's action. However, if we formalize community blocks as being de facto bans (which is kind of oxymoronic), such an action would interrupt a burgeoning consensus toward a much stronger action. For that reason, if option 3 is enacted, I think two further policy clarifications would be necessary: one, that any admin issuing a block in response to a thread where any calls for blocks have been made needs to specify whether they are doing it under their own authority or the community's; and two, that, in the former scenario, the community must have the option to ratify the block and place it under its own authority (just as ArbCom sometimes does). — PinkAmpers  &#38;  ( Je vous invite à me parler )  17:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Option 2 per Jayron32's spot-on comments above. Sometimes it's the right thing to do to unblock an editor even if it's not possible to convince a self-selected group of noticeboard regulars wielding pitchforks to agree. Sometimes it's not the right thing to do. But taking that discretion and flexibility away from admins does not improve the project, in my opinion. 28bytes (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Option 3 Ivanvector sums up the issue well. AIR corn (talk) 10:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion: community blocks

 * It is true that the community cannot impose blocks. To make it more concrete, how about something like "blocks administered to implement the close of a community discussion"?  (in the recent case, what should have been done instead of an unblock was a close challenge....) Jytdog (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps to enforce sanctions based on community consensus or something like that. That way it emphasizes that the sanction was not just one admin acting as closer, but the community as a whole sanctioning. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The banning policy still applies: the community has reached a consensus agreement to impose an editing restriction. Where there is a question of the validity of the close, a case request must be filed with the Arbitration Committee. isaacl (talk) 18:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You are getting closer but you are still not there. UNBAN does mention "editing restriction" but it does not explictly say "indefinite block". Which is why this discussion is happening.  It is very technical and somewhat legislating clue but there it is. Jytdog (talk) 19:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The types of restrictions that can be imposed by the community are discussed under the "Community bans and restrictions" section, which includes a site ban. isaacl (talk) 19:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Which is different from an indefinite block. I am done responding to you. Jytdog (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The indefinite block is the tool used to implement the site ban imposed by the community. The editor can appeal the ban sanction, in order to get the block lifted. I agree with TParis above; just because one admin didn't follow the existing policy already spelled out for community bans (as well as common English Wikipedia convention: consensus agreements are not supposed to be unilaterally overturned) doesn't mean a change is required in yet a different policy. We can afford to wait to see if a pattern will be established. isaacl (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The community has traditionally had discussions about explicitly banning an editor. These are different from indef blocking an editor. The editor in question was not community banned. --Neil N  talk to me 19:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no authority under the blocking policy for the community to block a user (defined as technically preventing them from editing via the software). The only authority for an editor to be prevented from editing by the consensus of the community is derived from the banning policy. Editing restrictions resulting from community discussions are bans by definition, whether the participants in the discussion choose to define it as such or not. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I will make one more response here. In the real world of actual community practice, it is not uncommon at ANI/AN that someone proposes that X be indeffed, and that ends up being the consensus.  Folks are saying that this is "in effect" a "siteban" or "editing restriction" discussed in BAN which is kind of true, but what actually happens at ANI is actually a consensus for indef, which is then implemented by an admin and recorded as such.  BAN and BLOCK are not explicit about the appeal process for this specific situation and as we have just seen, an admin thought himself fully justified in solo reversing that indef, looking only at BLOCK. Everybody else was horrified. I generally don't support legislating clue but as this involves the bit, I do support it here. And all this does is catch up the writings with community practice and understandings. Jytdog (talk) 20:12, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I disagree. WP:CBAN: In some cases the community may have discussed an indefinite block and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community". --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 20:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This is for the case where an admin imposed an indefinite block which was subsequently discussed by the community who declined to lift the block. At that point the community has enacted a site ban, converting the admin-imposed indefinite block into a community-imposed sanction that is within its scope to pass. isaacl (talk) 20:28, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think that says what you think it says, it's just another example of how when the community decides that an editor should not edit, then the community has enacted a ban. If a user finds themselves blocked, they can appeal; if the community then discusses the block and decides that, yes, this user should not be allowed to edit, then the community has enacted a ban. This section does not grant authority to the community to enact a block. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That's your (perfectly valid) interpretation. As long as other valid interpretations exist, this situation is going to occur again if the language isn't cleaned up. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 20:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I think part of the problem here is that the blocking policy generally predates both the AN page and the CBAN policy. There was a time when all blocks were effectively unilateral, and if you wanted a ban you needed ArbCom to step in. I think the current discussion of implementation of this policy may make it too easy to effectively use mob mentality to permanently ban someone in controversial or unclear situations. We used to entrust admins with the ability to review and unilaterally overturn blocks, as I did in this case, and as some have pointed out, we don't really have a "community blocking" policy without the harsher sanction of a full ban. Because I've been here a long time and not always active, it's possible this may have shifted in a way that I didn't keep up with, and my understanding is out of date. I do think the bar for a permaban should be higher than just a few users weighing in on a thread for a day or so. Andrevan@ 22:16, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * So you're arguing for option 2? --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 22:20, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's go with option 2 in my opinion. Andrevan@ 22:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)


 * This is quite maddening. If you search the ANI archives you will see many "proposal to indef" threads, where a close is made that acknowledges that consensus, and then an admin does that. Hypertechnicallegally you can ground this in BAN as the community imposing an "editing restriction" or a "siteban", but on the surface they are discussed as an indef, implemented as one, and recorded as one. There have been some closes that expressed discomfort with the notion due to the lack of clarity in BAN, or that described the indef as being done on the admin's authority rather than based on community consensus.  But there are plenty that just do it straight.  There is some interesting ambiguity here.   But this is community practice  which is actual policy in WP.  We do this.   The writings just record consensus practice and right now the written policy lags community practice, and does need to be updated.


 * Here are diffs from ANI threads with community-driven indefs. (the older ones are kind of random -- this is because our intra-WP search engine completely sucks but that is another conversation. They are from the first pages of a search.  I also browsed through the current ANI page and archives from 953 (most recent) to 939 (Nov 2016).


 * 2010 Request of indef block for user PCE. Discussed whether 2 week block was enough or should it be indef. Decision was indef.
 * 2011 NPA again. Proposal was ban/indef block, many of !votes were "indef". Spot on example of indef/ban ambiguity.  Final-final outcome was an indef.
 * 2013 Arctic Kangaroo yet again I formally propose that AK be blocked indefinitely..., !votes were indef or not, close was Indef block for WP:CIR issues: enacted.
 * 2013 User:omdo proposal: I have no option but to suggest a block, !votes were for indef, the last one being Indefinitely blocked by the admin who enacted what everyone had !voted for, which was recorded in the close.
 * 2013 Time to close? one segment of a long discussion about Danjel, where a move was afoot to indefinitely block them. Interesting close: There is no community blocking procedure, and no consensus for one if there were. That said, consensus that Danjel is creating a problem exists (only thing I have seen like this....)
 * 2013 EMr_KnG. Discussion about indef. Close: User is being engaged directly on his talk, with a view to avoiding the indefinite block that there is consensus should be applied if his edits continue to be troublesome.
 * 2016 God's Godzilla doesn't appear to have learned his lesson Proposal: Indef block of God's Godzilla Proposal. Close: Indefblocked, following lengthy discussion that included the user in question. Update: I note that Mr. Rnddude has now opposed the block, but by that point it was already complete; this is a race condition, and I will not object if another admin wants to revert this block for that reason.
 * 2016 Meatpuppet incident at Albert Cashier  Proposal was First off, I take it for granted that Lgbt.history.ig needs to be indeffed at this point..  close was Lgbt.history.ig has been indefinitely blocked by BethNaught, with the unanimous support of the community, for abusing multiple accounts and improper off-wiki canvassing.
 * 2016 Wrongful accusation from Walter Görlitz, resulted in boomerang indef, by community consensus. proposal was in subsection Indefinite block for Cedric and close was Cedric tsan cantonais indefinitely blocked. I'm not sure I've ever seen a consensus so overwhelmingly in favor of blocking.
 * 2017 John Carter. community discussion of block for IBAN violation. Close is interesting : John Carter blocked for a month. This discussion establishes that John Carter violated a community-imposed interaction ban....This is an enforcement action in my individual capacity as an administrator, subject to normal review by colleagues, and not an attempt at assessing consensus in this discussion. ...
 * 2017 Single-purpose account promoting geocentrist and paleo-Catholic Robert Sungenis. Indef was proposed, !voting started, and an admin jumped in and indeffed, writing I've reviewed this material and don't see any reason to take this to a vote. Their goals here are clear enough, and a block is the appropriate response, so I'm going to block them.
 * 2017 Riceissa 'this is the one, the unblocking of which sparked this discussion. proposal was: I think this justifies either an editing restriction or an outright ban. Bluntly, Riceissa appears to be here to spam.. !votes were indef and close was Indeffed. The pages mentioned below are up for deletion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Riceissa/Animal Charity Evaluators
 * 2017 Topic ban for Wiki-Pharaoh proposal was TBAN but community discussion moved to indef. close: Blocked indefinitely. Additionally, all project space pages and shortcuts are to be userfied or deleted (at administrator's discretion)

-- Jytdog (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * All of those (other than John Carter and the Robert Sungenis SPA, which are odd special cases) are community discussions leading to a formal editing sanction against an editor, an action described by the banning policy; thus, they're bans. The block thus enacted by an administrator is enforcement of the ban, which is described in the blocking policy. What we need to make clear, regardless of the nomenclature, is that if there is a community discussion leading to a formal sanction of an editor, then it is up to the community to remove that sanction. That's option 1 above, but I don't like how either option defines this in regard to the technical function of blocking.
 * The confusion comes when a community discussion leaves a result in which the community implicitly expresses its wish that the sanction be reversible by any administrator acting in the interest of the discussion, if/when the issue leading to the sanction is resolved. In the discussions which Jytdog posted, this is referred to as a "block", but it's not a block because the community cannot push the block button. What it is is what we seem to need to define, and it should be in the banning policy as the policy which defines available community sanctions and how they may be enacted/appealed. Whether we want to call it a semi-ban, or a reversible ban, or a discretionary ban, or a pancake, it's still a form of formal sanction, and those are described by the banning policy.
 * A possible related question is, does the community desire to define a permanent ban? We've never done anything permanent by definition with regard to sanctions, apart from office actions, but some Wikipedias do. I don't support it personally, but just throwing it out there. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:18, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph is great. The second paragraph is really confused.  Those indef discussions do not assume that the indef can be lifted by any old cowboy admin, which is why pretty much everyone reacted as they have to the event that sparked this.  They are done in the spirit that we want this person technically prevented from editing. It is well understood that the community entrusts only a few people with the power to do that and the expected outcome of the consensus is that some admin will fulfil the responsibility that comes with the power, and do the indef.  Yes, policy needs to catch up with practice.  Blocks administered to implement the close of a community discussion are not like other blocks; they are a form of editing restriction per BAN. Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to point at a prior discussion which talked about this (at least as to what current policy is): WT:Banning_policy/Archive_6 -Obsidi (talk) 05:48, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Obsidi thanks for bringing that! The paragraph where that was diff made is so.. convoluted. See proposal below... Jytdog (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: clarification of community blocks
To catch up with practice and clarify the language, Banning_policy should just be changed as follows:
 * "In some cases the community may have discussed reviewed and upheld an indefinite block imposed by administrator on his or her own authority, or may have reviewed an unblock request from such an indefinitely blocked editor and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due such consideration by the community are considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community'. In some cases the community may have reached a consensus to indefinitely block an editor, and an indefinite block is imposed by an administrator acting under that consensus. Such an editor is considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community'."

Thoughts? Jytdog (talk) 21:16, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not to open a can o' worms, but taking out "indefinite(ly)" covers off the cases when the community has decided on a time-limited block. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 23:55, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
 * User:NeilN I like it!  I made changes accordingly, showing only the redaction for changes to the original language, not the proposed language. See below (am proposing adding language "to the extent that..." to make it clear it extends from a short term block to an indef... hopefully not too messy with that.)


 * "In some cases the community may have discussed reviewed and upheld an indefinite a block imposed by an administrator on his or her own authority, or may have reviewed an unblock request from such a blocked editor and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due such consideration by the community are considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community' to the extent of the original block . In some cases the community may have reached a consensus to block an editor, and a block is imposed by an administrator acting under that consensus. Such an editor is considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community' to the extent of the block decided by the community."


 * does that work better? Jytdog (talk) 01:54, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Instead of "to the extent...", I suggest "for the length of the block", in both cases. (I don't think "original" is required for the first case.) isaacl (talk) 02:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't think any of that extra verbosity is any sort of improvement. Simply keeping the original statement and just removing the "indefinite" specification would literally work just as well. S warm   ♠  06:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No, clarification is definitely required. See all the editors above who interpreted this section as meaning that the community can impose blocks. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:49, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * However, I do agree that being excessively verbose works against clarity of the policy (one might observe this is an ironic view coming from me). A couple points:
 * I don't think 34 words are necessary in the first sentence; at least some are repeating themselves. "In some cases the community may review an administrative block or an editor's unblock request and reach a consensus not to unblock the editor." seems to me to work just as well with 10 fewer words. (I also prefer present tense for policy)
 * "... to the extent of the original block". Necessary? A block or ban with an expiry date doesn't require consensus or admin action to overturn upon expiry, and as far as I know it's rare for a time-limited sanction to be appealed. But on the balance I guess Isaacl's suggestion serves the purpose.
 * The second para, that's what I have been getting at but there doesn't seem to be agreement on that point. I'm worried about "consensus to block an editor" because, as discussed above, the community has neither authority nor technical capability to functionally block an editor. Can we say "consensus to sanction an editor" and "to the extent of the sanction" instead? It would work just as well to cover those cases that resulted in a "consensus to block" as described above.
 * --Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Happy to simplify. The reason for the "to the extent" is that I don't want to leave the door open for some cowboy admin to overturn a 3 month block that the community endorsed after review on the hyperlegalistic reasoning that it was not a SITEBAN.   As for the third paragraph, how is a block not an editing restriction (which the community is empowered in letter and spirit to impose)?  How in the world can you say that community cannot reach a consensus that someone should be indefinitely blocks when the community actually does this, going back a long way?  You continue to treat policy like it is a reified thing and not an expression of common community practice. Please review the letter and spirit of WP:PAG.  The writing has to adapt.  If you continue to hold this stance we may need an RfC but that would really surprise me if it were needed.....   Jytdog (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I presume the proposed second paragraph was intended to replace the current first bullet point? How about changing the text as follows:
 * The community may reach a consensus to impose various types of sanctions on editors as described in  :
 * If an editor has proven to be repeatedly disruptive in one or more areas of Wikipedia, the community may engage in a discussion to site ban, topic ban, or place an interaction ban or impose an editing prohibition restriction via a consensus of editors who are not  un involved in the underlying dispute. When determining consensus, the closing administrator will assess the strength and quality of the arguments made.
 * The community may review the circumstances of a block imposed by an administrator on his or her own initiative, and reach a consensus to enact an editing prohibition. It may be on the same terms of the original block, or a newly-created restriction.
 * In some cases the community may have discussed an indefinite block and reached a consensus of uninvolved editors not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community".
 * Once a sanction has been imposed or upheld by the community, it assumes responsibility for the restriction. Appeals must follow the procedure described in.
 * isaacl (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * My proposal was only intended to replace the 2nd bullet point. The more extensive changes to the first are not needed; it is clear enough. The changes to the 2nd don't address the mess that started this, nor the need to update this to deal with the reality that the community has, for a long time, agreed that someone needs to be indeffed (a form of editing restriction or ban, as you like).  I don't think we should introduce new terms like "prohibition")   Here is a revised proposal that takes into account everything above and incorporates the reality of community-imposed indefs:


 * revised 2nd bullet per above, now leaving the markup out:


 * "In some cases the community may review an administrative block or an editor's unblock request and reach a consensus not to unblock the editor. Editors who remain blocked after such consideration by the community are considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community' for the length of the block. In some cases the community may reach a consensus to ban or place an editing restriction on an editor by means of a time-limited or indefinite block, and a block is imposed by an administrator acting under that consensus. Such an editor is considered 'banned by the Wikipedia community' for the length of the block decided by the community."
 * - thoughts? as mentioned if folks are going to keep insisting that a block is not a valid form of "editing restriction" we will need an RfC, but again, this would surprise me. Jytdog (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The reason I changed both bullet points is to avoid duplication of language regarding what is considered a community ban/editing restriction. Since this applies to both bullet points, I felt it would be better to pull out this part into a separate paragraph that applied to both. Since the key point is that appeals must follow the procedure for community bans, I also thought it would be good to highlight this specifically. "Prohibition" is taken from the first sentence of the banning policy page: A ban is a formal prohibition... I only used it as a synonym for ban (as used in the banning policy page), since some people have different connotations for that word.
 * On a side note, the incident that triggered this discussion is covered by the current first bullet point, not the second: the community reached a decision to enact a ban which was then enacted. isaacl (talk) 17:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Jytdog: it's exactly that door that I'm trying not to leave open, by specifying within the policies that sanctions deriving from community discussions should not be modified by any administrator acting in a sole capacity. I think that we're in agreement on that. Being wishy-washy about "current practice" and the "spirit of the policy" is what leads to administrators having to interpret what we're allowed to do and not do, and in the case which led to this discussion led to a community-imposed editing restriction being overturned by an administrator who in good faith believed they had the authority to do so, and it's not really clear that they didn't. That's why I'm being "hyperlegalistic" as you call it about what words we use in the policy.
 * Now as far as current practice, my suggestion to replace "block" with "sanction" within the banning policy is meant to cover the situation where the community discusses an editor and reaches a "consensus to block" or "consensus to indef" or whatever. By specifying that this is a sanction within the banning policy, and not a technical restriction within the blocking policy, then the banning policy already describes that the sanction can only be modified by subsequent community consensus (and not by one "cowboy admin"). I believe this is the intended result of all of those discussions which resulted in "consensus to block". If you believe that's not the case, can you describe how you believe the intended result of such a discussion differs? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:36, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know why I didn't get an edit conflict notice on this, but never mind. Reviewing what you wrote below apparently while I was writing this. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I see what you mean about the first bullet. On the Riceissa thing it was interesting that the nom was for a ban but all the !votes were for an indef.  One can interpret that a lot of ways (for example,. the community wanted a site ban with the specific editing restriction created by a block, for example...), but the community spoke clearly that it wanted an indef.


 * Here is proposal for the whole section, being conservative with changes:


 * Comments? Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't like that the sentance Editors who remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community are considered "banned by the Wikipedia community" for the duration of the block. Is only in the second bullet. This should apply to the first case as well (not only reviews of blocks/appeals), assuming that is the intreprtation you want. -Obsidi (talk) 18:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * OK, maybe make it a third bullet like this instead of repeating it?


 * Does that do it? Jytdog (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

This works pretty well for my concerns. With this wording "an administrative block" can just be "a block" I think. Thinking about the second bullet, something seems off to me but I'm not sure what yet. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:47, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it's that the second bullet now isn't really saying anything. Here, I'll give it a go. This is a bit more exotic, so I haven't tried to mark it up.


 * How's that? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * generally great! My only concern is that with only the "remain" in the third bullet (your taking out of the "are or" remain blocked) I am little concerned that cowboy admins would consider any block imposed under the 1st bullet lift-able on their own, which is what got us here.    Did you intend to leave this open to that?  Jytdog (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Good point, it can say "who are or remain". I also think we should specify separately in the unblocking section of the blocking policy that community sanctions defined here cannot be overturned by an administrator without explicit community consensus, like Arbcom's own motion. Like this: "When the block is explicitly enforcing an active Arbitration remedy and there is no ArbCom authorization or "a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI)" (Arbcom motion)." Although this wording comes from Arbcom and might need their authorization to change. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:22, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Great. Seems like we are agreed.  Perhaps easier to get done if we just add a parallel statement about community sanctions, after the arbcom statement?  more clunky I know.  Jytdog (talk) 20:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How about a statement that refers to Banning policy? This would parallel the existing statement referring to the Arbitration Committee motion. For example: When the block is implementing a community-imposed ban that has not been successfully appealed. isaacl (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How about this? (Modifying Blocking policy)


 * I use "sanction" (linked to the section above, to be revised) instead of "ban" to head off wikilawyering that a block agreed to by the community didn't specify "ban" explicitly. Thoughts?
 * I do think that once we're agreed on these changes that we ought to post this as an RfC at WP:VPP. The three or four of us working it out here isn't a good basis for changing the wording of a policy that's likely to be controversial. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:18, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I sandboxed a proposed RfC here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * My suggestion would be to hold a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Banning policy or Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy. I'm not sure a full RfC is warranted, since no policy is being changed. The changes are essentially a restatement of what is already in the policies (and thankfully in alignment with current practice). I'm sure, though, that they'll be more wordsmithing proposed. isaacl (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The proposed changes to UNBLOCK are good by me and I agree they are also needed to keep everything SYNCed. I would say post both sets of changes on the Talk page of BAN, and post a note on the talk page of BLOCK pointing to it, to keep the discussion in one place. If things go beyond wordsmithing and into serious conceptual contention we can go to an RfC.... Jytdog (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Well if we don't think this needs to go to an RfC in a central location, then posting a note to WT:BLOCK and WT:BAN referring to this discussion is probably good enough. It's pretty clearly laid out here what we want to do, and why. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Done here and here. Thanks for this productive discussion.  Jytdog (talk) 17:47, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Requests for disambiguation
A long time ago now, I did learn that Wikipedia has facilities for making requests for new articles( see Requested articles). Can we please also have now "Wikipedia: Requests for new disambiguation lists"? If you to the article on the 2016 film called The Magnificent Seven, it is not headed by a disambiguation list, but a list there might make Wikipedia easier to use, especially for new users.Vorbee (talk) 19:27, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should – It will improve the disambig system by letting helpful (and bored) editors to do a 5-minute job while also helping readers significantly.  J 947 (c)  19:32, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, but something like this should be handled under a subpage of WP:AFC, similar to how WP:AFC/R is handled currently. f  e  minist  13:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: In general, I can't see a reason why the normal Requested articles process shouldn't be used for this purpose. Perhaps it needs a "Disambiguation pages" section? Of course, any registered user can create such a page. In particular, I'm not sure I understand the problem entirely: The Magnificent Seven has a hatnote to the disambiguation page Magnificent Seven. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about Template:G12 courtesy blanking
This is a notice of a discussion taking place at WT:CSD.  —   Gestrid  ( talk ) 23:42, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for article called "Nonwikipedia disclaimers" to have content
Although this is somewhat hidden away, at times it is possible to see a "Disclaimer" icon at the base of a Wikipedia page. If you click on here, you get to a text where it is typed (with the last three words in wikilink text) that "Note that most other encyclopedias and reference works also have disclaimers." Clicking on these words simply takes you to an empty box that is headed "Nonwikipedia disclaimers". My proposal is simply to put some content in this box, even if only a series of external links. Many thanks for considering this proposal, Vorbee (talk) 18:50, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * @Vorbee: Thank you for reporting. This page was empty due to vandalism. I have reverted the vandalism and reinstated the original content of Non-Wikipedia disclaimers. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:24, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Add notification when an editor creates a subpage of your user page?
I have initiated a WP:RFC proposing that users receive a notification when someone other than themselves creates a subpage of their user page or their user talk page. The RFC can be found at Wikipedia talk:Notifications. Steel1943 (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Linking to Open Library
Would there be an interest in a bot that converts citations to Open Library? For example changing from this to this. It would be a site-wide all-article bot for any citation, inline or external link section. This is not a formal proposal/consensus discussion but would appreciate your thoughts. -- Green  C  18:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you are suggesting? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 00:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * A bot that converts every book title on Wikipedia to an external link to Open Library. Like this for example. The idea is to make as many external links to Open Library as possible in citations etc.. wherever a book title exists create a link to Open Library. Is that something you think the community would support? --  Green  C  01:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * But linking the title to "Open Library" does not link to the text in question?
 * Linking to google books is better as Google books does often give one the text. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:39, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Removing nonexistent images from image galleries
Hi there! I am ready to run a bot to clean image galleries from syntax errors and nonexistent images (BRFA details). In order to verify the consensus, I opened the discussion "Wikipedia talk:Image use policy". Apparently that page is not so popular, so I'm writing here to get more inputs: if you have any feeling about the idea, please join the above discussion. Thanks! -- Basilicofresco  (msg) 19:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposal to create "Geography of [city]" redirects
I propose semi-automated mass creation of redirects in the format "Geography of [city]" targeting "[city]#Geography", where such a page does not already exist and the article for the city has a Geography section. For example, Geography of Abu Dhabi redirects to Abu Dhabi. I've created 25 for now and haven't experienced any issues. The first batch of such redirects I plan to create comprise less than 800 pages; these were taken from WikiProject Cities/Popular pages and Vital articles/Expanded/Geography, because these city articles are more sought after by readers. I filter out articles without a "Geography" section using AWB's pre-parse mode to ensure that redirects to invalid sections won't be created. If a "Geography of [city]" title already exists, either as a redirect (e.g. Geography of Amsterdam) or as an article (e.g. Geography of London), the page will be skipped. Posting here to see if anyone may oppose the creation of these redirects. f e  minist  13:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Question. What will be benefits of creating such redirects? Ruslik_ Zero 13:35, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * For readers who may search for "Geography of [city]" because articles on geography by places are common on Wikipedia. f  e  minist  15:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No objection Sounds like a great idea, fire away. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As long as they get checked over by somebody, then I'm fine with it. RileyBugz <sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話 <sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録  15:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Lots of city names are ambiguous. Do you plan a redirect whenever there is an article with a Geography section at the primary name, e.g. redirecting Geography of Birmingham to Birmingham, ignoring Birmingham, Alabama and others at Birmingham (disambiguation)? PrimeHunter (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think this would be a problem. Geography of London is an article about the geography of London, ignoring stuff like London, Ontario. Chris Brown discography ignores Chris Brown (Canadian musician). Concerning your example, Geography of Birmingham would redirect to Birmingham, while Geography of Birmingham, Alabama would redirect to Birmingham, Alabama. f  e  minist  16:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Personally I believe we should just let search engines do what they're good at: finding an appropriate page for the words in your search. There is no need to create redirects for every possible search term. isaacl (talk) 16:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That would of course be the ideal situation if the WMF would invest in actually useful software, but unfortunately the search engine isn't up to the task. Case in point, I just searched "geography of paris" with the Wikipedia search engine. The Paris article was the sixth result and readers would still need to look for the Geography section themselves after reaching the article. f  e  minist  16:53, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Most readers aren't using Wikipedia's search engine, but for those who are, let's get WMF to improve the search engine instead of trying to fill Wikipedia with every conceivable search phrase. It's not a sustainable approach. Also, I think most readers will look up the city/geographical region first, anyway, and search that article for the information they are seeking, rather than using the Wikipedia search function. isaacl (talk) 18:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Not every conceivable search phrase. We don't have articles of "Sports of" or "Sort of" (Sport of Kings is an album, no other article exiasts for either of these where the next letter is capital), so we wouldn't create redirects for those. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:02, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, we do, but regardless, I feel we are overusing redirects to try to influence search engine results, with only a vague idea of the net result. We could, for example, be diluting the weighting being given by a search engine to the end target page, if significant numbers of external pages link to the redirect page, thereby reducing the overall effectiveness for readers. isaacl (talk) 04:24, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support as nominated. Of course, creating such a redirect doesn'tp revent a future article about this. Be sure not to overwrite any articler (such as Geography of Aberdeen), and that the section does exist, and this redirect is clearly helpful. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:26, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. The existence of articles about the geography of some cities makes the phrase "Geography of X" a term that readers might expect to land somewhere meaningful. As the search engine isn't handling this well, the creation of such redirects will be of benefit. The only con I can think of is that the existence of such redirect might reduce the WP:REDLINK encouragement of article creation, but I think the effect this is going to have is negligible given how rarely such phrases get linked. – Uanfala (talk) 18:59, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose While I don't doubt there is a degree of usefulness, I can see problems, as others have pointed out, such as isaacl. This is a task best suited for search engines.  If we allow it here, we open a Pandora's box of redirects for every topic.  Admitting this is a search engine problem, then blaming the search engine, that isn't a good enough reason for me to do this, which ends up leaving out a lot of important cities anyway.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 23:51, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support as proposed. I strongly disagree with Dennis Brown that unnecessarily inconveniencing users is a good thing because a search engine might at some unknown point in the future do the job (and if it does, it's not guaranteed to do as good a job as a redirect). Thryduulf (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Redirects are cheap and useful, but only if they are actually used. The proposal has not given evidence that readers actually search for "Geography of [city]". Largely unused redirects are unhelpful as they only bring extra pages to watch for vandalism. In general, mass-creating redirects for everything also masks what we don't have pages for; redirects are not supposed to duplicate the titles of our five million articles x the number of sections in them. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:14, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That articles like Geography of New York, Geography of Toronto, Geography of Beijing, Geography of Aberdeen etc. exist is evidence that this is something a reader would find useful. f  e  minist  08:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Queston Let's assume some small random set of the 800 pages you propose first. I'd like to see how many of those that if you search in WP for "geography of (city)" if the city's page does not come up within the first 5-6 entries. If for a significant fraction of these, the city page is not of the first results, then these redirects make sense. If only a few isolated cases have this problem, then this feels like a solution looking for a problem and while redirects are cheap, also create a slippery slope. (Why not "Government of (city)"? "Attractions of (city)"? (Yes, geography is one of the more important sections in these articles since WP serves as a gazetteer but still...). The few I did try show more like the latter case, where the city comes up earlier enough for this, making the redirects unnecessary. --M ASEM (t) 04:15, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per ., , and The law of unintended consequences, which Isaacl hints at above. This is a search engine problem, and the proposal is a solution looking for problem. If it becomes the norm, the project will become swamped with search-result-reducing redirects to governments of..., entertainment of..., geography of..., history of..., etc., etc., etc. Redirects better served by the search engines, not to mention the mis-use of millions of volunteer-editor-hours. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 07:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The redirects will be created using AWB, preferably also with a bot account, and the process of filtering articles without the valid section is also done with AWB, so the time taken is not high. The actual time required for editors to prepare the bot for the creation of the redirects (i.e. time spent in front of a computer) would not exceed a few minutes. f  e  minist  08:16, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I have just last week deleted thousands of "History of ..." redirects (created very rapidly without prior discussion), because they contained many problems, but also because these were not that helpful anyway. Using search engines (wiki-internal, or something like Google) for "Geography of ..." or "History of ..." usually returns the right page as first or second result anyway, it's not as if the search doesn't work without these redirects. Fram (talk) 09:29, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I wish you had nominated those redirects, because a "History of X" redirect linking to "X#History" is a good example of something that is useful. Not everybody searches using search engines - there are many who navigate by URL, search in the URL bar, enter a term in the search box and click "go" among other methods that will not necessarily end up at search results if the exact term is not matched (whether they do see search results is a combination of several factors, most outside the end user's control). There is also the question of why someone should have to navigate via a search results page? If someone looks for Geography of London they get to where they want to go directly, if they then look for Geography of Cairo they get to where they want to directly. If they then look for Geography of Paris they wont - they might be invited to search, invited to create an article, arrive at an editing window to start an article, see a search engine page with results, see a search engine page with no results, see a search engine page with an error, be presented with a page that tells them they can't start an article, or possibly something else. If they do see search results, then to get to the content they are looking for they have to click on the 7th result, scroll past a full screen of lead, then click on the 7th line of the ToC. Alternatively, we could create a redirect so they get where they want directly. The same is true for "History of" redirects. Thryduulf (talk) 10:38, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I was not going to nominate thousands of redirects created in the span of a few hours without any controls or checks. "a "History of X" redirect linking to "X#History" is a good example of something that is useful." in some cases, and not in others. Sometimes X shouldn't have a section called "history" (e.g. in most biographies), or it should be "history of the X" instead of "history of X", and so on. People using very poor searching methods may happen (although most of these proposed redirects probably got zero hits in the last 12 months or so), but how many millions of redirects do you propose to create to catch every possible thing people may be entering via the URL? The "history of" plan alone was going to be several hundred thousands of redirects if it had gone according to plan. Thanks for providing the "Geography of Paris" example: it shows how badly our search engine sucks, despite much touted things like cirrus search or whatever it was called. When I look for "Geography of Paris" on Google, without even mentioning Wikipedia, I get the correct result as the second one (the Paris article, and in the summary Google starts with a linked "Jump to Geography" text to make it even easier). But on Wikipedia, it is only the sixth one. That sucks, but is something the WMF should solve (it might divert their attention from some less useful but more fancy projects). Creating millions of redirects to solve the poor search engine we have now is not a solution I support though. Fram (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I concur with Thryduulf here. "History of X" redirects to "X#History" (where such a section exists and is in line with the usual article structure for the topic) are examples of redirects that, if nominated at WP:RFD, are likely to be unanimously kept. – Uanfala (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Feel free to propose a bot or similar to create these. I don't think the deletion of History of N'Versity, History of N-Acyl homoserine lactone, History of N.O. Joe and the like is really a problem, and I wasn't going to spend more time on checking which ones might have been useful and which ones should never have been created, than the editor invested in creating these in the first place. I somehow doubt that many people will search in the URL for History of N200 (neuroscience). But feel free to open DRV or AN discussion if you feel strongly about this. Fram (talk) 11:43, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * (Ideally, our internal search engine should prioritize on header names in articles, so that the fact that there exists a "geography" section in Paris should make that pop up much higher than any two articles that just contain the words "geography" and "paris". Which would subsequently render this redirect task moot). --M ASEM (t) 13:37, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I find it ironical that people want to create these to make searching easier, while in many cases they will make searching harder. When I type "History of N" or "Geography of N" in the search box, I get a dropdown with articles and redirects which start with this (and below this ones that match it but not exactly). The more redirects get created indiscriminately, the harder it is to find the articles or most wanted redirects. With the smaller number of Geography redirects proposed for now, this may not be too much of a problem yet. With the thousands upon thousands of "History of " redirects, the dropdown search would become next to useless in that case, with the extremely obscure hiding the useful and most wanted ones. Fram (talk) 11:57, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * While those redirects, once created, would likely be kept at RFD (looking mostly harmless while mostly useless) I am happy that you came here and asked for permission before creating them. It is probably not a good idea to create hundreds of these, per Fram's and Masem's comments. Perhaps we should be slightly less permissive of redirects than we have historically been (back in the days when our internal search engine was worse than useless). —Kusma (t·c) 14:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, fair point. Let's see. Let's look at Helsinki and Bergen. Geography of Helsinki happens to exist; it's an actual article, not a redirect, but for our purposes let's pretend its a redirect to Helsinki. Bergen exists but there's no redirect. Say I'm interested in the geography of city X, three likely inputs might be "X geography", "Geography of X", or just typing "X". A savvy reader might realize that when the results list is clearly complete (it's down to a few entries and doesn't include her search term) that her search is futile. But many readers aren't savvy to our idiosyncracies that way.
 * For Helsinki:
 * I have to type "Geography of He" before "Geography of Helskinki" comes up at all. When it does its at the top.
 * "Hel" brings up "Helskinki" fifth on the list; "Hels" brings it to the top. From there, It's two clicks away: to the article, then find "Geography" on the article menu and click that.
 * "Helsinki ge" gives a long results list, but "Helsinki geo" cuts it to one entry ("Helsinki Group") which a savvy reader will understand means a failed search, and "Helsinki geog" clears the results list, an obvious failed search.
 * For Bergen
 * I have to type "Geography of berg" before the results list cuts to three (indication of failure to a savvy reader). "geography of berge" clears the list.
 * "Berg" brings up "Bergen" second on the list. You have to type the entirety of "Bergen" to jump it to the top. From there, It's two clicks away: to the article, then find "Geography" on the article menu and click that.
 * "Bergen geo" cuts the list to the list to two, "Bergen geog" clears it. (Actually there is a redirect "Bergen, the geographical name" which is kind of silly and shouldn't exist so I ignored it.)


 * Entering a nonexistent term here brings up "containing... X" which many people click on I'm sure, and that brings up our here's-our-best-guess list. If you type "Geography of bergen" and click you get a list with Bergen at the top.


 * All this indicates to me for our search engine as it exists now (which is all we can control), "Geography of X" is a tiny service to those readers who are 1) interested in the geography of X, and 2) search on "geography of x" rather than X directly. It saves them an extra finding-on-the-articl-TOC and an extra click. Maybe one, one and a half seconds. Whether (2) is 10% of (1), or 1%, or 0.1%, I don't know. It's probably not 0.1%; if it's >1%... well, tiny benefit, but we have an awful lot of readers, so it maybe adds up. So I'll add my support directly below. Herostratus (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * But it will also change your actual results you use for testing. "Geography of He" now give syou "Geography of Helsinki", but in the future may give you "Geography of Herefordshire" instead, or "geography of Héliopolis, Algeria", or "Geography of Helena, Alabama" or "Geography of Helena, Montana" or "Geography of Helena, Oklahoma" or "Geography of Helena Township, Michigan" or "Geography of Helena, Georgia" or "Geography of Helena, Ohio" (population: 224) or "Geography of Helena Valley Northeast, Montana" or "Geography of Helena West Side, Montana" or "Geography of Helena Valley Southeast, Montana", or... These are all populated places with a geography section in the article, not some imaginary redirects. The "first batch" proposed here may be tiny, but the end result of all batches will normally be huge. Fram (talk) 15:01, 30 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Sure, why not. Redirects are cheap, My guess (see comment directly above) is that it's probably a (quite tiny) net benefit to a small percentage of readers (which adds up to something since we have so many readers), and the other "oppose" arguments are not strong IMO. Herostratus (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose I don't see where there are redlinks in need of such redirects, and if they aren't being linked to, then they aren't needed. This, and all of the unintended consequences noted above indicates that these redirects should only be created specifically to meet a demand for a specific redlink, and not merely to have them.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 14:36, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, that is a task well suited for search engines, others have explained well already. I presume they're not much usefull in linking either, the few time we'd need such links we may pipe them. I just add that, someone pointed that not everybody uses searches, ok, how would this redirects be useful then? (I still praise Feminist's good ideia - though not all good ideas are good things to implement - and their asking for input before going on a hundreds to many thousnads page creation) - Nabla (talk) 10:43, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Fram. JAG  UAR   11:53, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is a solution in search of a problem. Applied more broadly it could really get out of hand. Legacypac (talk) 03:46, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Bot to mark user pages with RETRACTED
I had posted this at Bot Requests, but they said to come get a consensus here: ''After a certain period of time, say 60 days, the bot would replace the contents of the user page with the  tag, and mark that page patrolled to remove it from the queue. If it were a CU block, then the bot would use the CU block tag. d.g. L3X1 (distænt write)   )evidence(  17:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)''
 * Oppose No bots should be messing with Checkuser block tags. There are many nuances with regard to the specific tag used and several instances wherein it is preferable to not tag at all. -- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 20:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, what about regular tags? d.g. L3X1  (distænt write)   )evidence(  21:09, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * While not as concerning as the checkuser block tags, I don't see the benefit. As an admin, if I've chosen to not add a block message to a user page then its likely for a good reason.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 21:24, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


 * What problem would this task solve? Killiondude (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Totally oppose. Accounts are blocked for a variety of reasons, which can be something as innocent as blocking at the owners request owing to a lost password, an "indefinite until the situation is resolved" block over a relatively trivial matter in which the editor decides to leave with dignity rather than challenge the block, or an alternative account of someone who's decided to stick to a single account from now on. As I've already told you in another context, you seem to have a serious issue understanding that the operators of Wikipedia accounts are real people with real feelings, not targets against which you can score points in some kind of game; as far as I can tell your proposal is to compulsorily flag everyone who's fallen foul of Wikipedia's byzantine rules with a mark of Cain, and as far as I'm concerned would just be institutionalised spite. I'd go as far as to say that if someone started going around systematically doing this, that editor would themselves have a decent chance of finding themselves indefinitely blocked for excessive repeated hostile aggressiveness. The odds of you getting a bot—which can't understand the nuance of why an editor has been blocked and when it's appropriate to blank a userpage and when it's appropriate to leave it in an as-they-left state—approved to carry out this task is zero. As Ponyo says, As an admin, if I've chosen to not add a block message to a user page then its likely for a good reason; you need to have some trust that when something that would normally be mentioned isn't mentioned, it's not being mentioned for a reason. ‑ Iridescent 21:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Ponyo.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:DENY. In many cases, it's best not to provide recognition. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 22:39, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose there is no problem here that this would solve and there are many reasons why a tag might not be appropriate. No bot can determine why tags were not placed when the block was made.  Leave it up to the blocking admin to determine the proper tagging.  ~ GB fan 22:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose some good points have been made above. Personally, if I've chosen to add a block tag then it's only for a good reason. They can occasionally be appropriate, but most of the time, not. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks to everyone above for explaining to me, retracted per SNOW. d.g. L3X1  (distænt write)   )evidence(  23:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Create a wiki mirror for use by educational institutions.
Proposal: Create a wiki mirror for use by educational institutions. As we all appreciate, we welcome tutors teaching their students how to edit Wikipedia, since we will always need new editors. Problem, I have noticed over the years though, is that some students just add anything to WP @ WC just to complete their assignments. A current example is: Likely not a compatible copyright. This leaves patrollers with an added extra work load. The conundrum is that one doesn’t get proficient in editing unless one edits. One solution would be to have a mirror. A shorter term option, maybe is to ask tutors to tell their students to create their user pages, sandboxes, upload images, and including (say) Category: Temporary student project - Year 20xx. A bot can then whiz round and auto- delete abandoned assignments after the course ends. The student projects never ever seem to carry over, as the next cohort of students start over again from the beginning. Moreover, Very few of these students are likely to ever contribute to WP ever again, because we would be gaining many more editors if they did. The mirrors should not cost the WMF any money because all we need to do is supply the software and the education institution can add their own logo and load it onto their own server. Self-hosting could provided an extra benefit too, as the tutor can then teach the importance of critically reviewing other students input. At the moment, editing 'live' on WP and uploading images to WC   leads them into thinking they have achieved expert competence if during their very short coarse, non of their efforts had have time to be reverted or deleted. Just adding stuff to WP is not sufficient to build an Encyclopaedia – and I think many syllabus miss out this point. This denies those students from discovering the many intellectual challenges to be enjoyed on WP. Aspro (talk) 14:53, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Would it not be easier to just point them at Wikiversity, or create copies of articles in the draft space on request for the students to play with? As I understand it, what you're suggesting is duplicating en-wiki to create a 43GB sandbox (or 10TB if we duplicate the article histories), which seems an awfully inefficient way to go about things. &#8209; Iridescent 20:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I daresay, such an undertaking would be unwiki-like. --Izno (talk) 20:58, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure what you are proposing here - I just wanted to say that, as somebody who did used to work as a lecturer, I know that diverse opinions about Wikipedia may be expressed by staff in academia.Vorbee (talk) 20:53, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There's already Citizendium, an existing wiki mirror done mostly by experts of various topics. --George Ho (talk) 03:42, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, there is a list of wikis, including Scholarpedia. --George Ho (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, there is a list of wikis, including Scholarpedia. --George Ho (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

shortname alias = DR Congo
I would like to add Template:Country data Democratic Republic of the Congo into the Category:Country data templates with distinct shortname. I'm testing the shortname-alias "DR Congo" at Template:Country data Democratic Republic of the Congo/sandbox:

Maiō T. (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

68 reasons why to do it:  Maiō T. (talk) 11:11, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

A new "discussion mode" of a specified duration for AfD debates
At deletion policy talk here I'm proposing a new way of dealing with AfDs for articles for which there appear to be many sources in existence.

In some cases articles are put up for AfDs despite many sources (i.e. news, studies and books) using the article's term. There can be reasons for the deletion of articles despite of that such as:


 * None of (or only very few?) of the sources actually describing the concept sufficiently (in-depth) and only "using" that term
 * The term being used with different meanings (most often this would be no reason to delete but to move)

For such cases I suggest a "discussion mode" of a specified duration (i.e. a few days) in which participants of the AfD are not allowed to vote but only allowed to discuss arguments for and against deletion, make counterarguments, cite relevant policies, research the article's topic (in the Web and in offline resources) and make suggestions for possible procedure (such as splitting, merging, renaming).

After this discussion phase is over the debate enters a new phase and participants are allowed to vote. I'd suggest creating a line (as below) under which members add their votes along with references to comments of the discussion-mode. To notify participants about the new phase they could be pinged. There could potentially also be a summary of arguments made/the debate earlier after phase #1 is finished. If this is successful it could potentially also be expanded to other types of (of AfDs & other) debates.

I hope this is clear enough - if not please ask. Maybe an exemplary discussion of this type would be useful.

Why this would be useful/needed: Imo every article that took the time and effort of people to create deserves a proper argumentation/debate about its deletion and informed decision-making. By making sure that all sides are given time and space to make their arguments, research, cite relevant policies before the voting we can improve the decisions made and make sure that the votes are educated opinions and more in line with our policies.

For instance there is a problem with votes being made before specific points have been brought up (such as policies, counterarguments and sources) and with "peer-influence" (a general problem of Internet voting), see:. Furthermore early participants may in some cases significantly swing discussions and sheer number of votes (e.g. due to canvassing, Internet trolls or sockpuppets) may manipulate or distort results.

Relevant to this is: WP:NOTDEMOCRACY

I think this could significantly improve and protect Wikipedia and can not overstate how important and useful I think this would be.

What do you think of this suggestion and do you have any input on how it could be implemented best? Please do not comment here but instead go to the Deletion policy talk page linked on top.

--Fixuture (talk) 22:06, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Is anything happening with Wikipedia in relation to the July 12 Net Neutrality day of action
Sorry if this is the wrong place to bring this up. IIRC didn't wikipedia blackout against SOPA in the past? I think if there was ever a time to do that again, this would be it.

edit: I'm referring to this: https://www.battleforthenet.com/july12/?link_id=1&can_id=20c9e8697417c254bfd7b46dbee5808c&source=email-going-big-for-net-neutrality-2-2&email_referrer=going-big-for-net-neutrality-2-2&email_subject=the-day-we-unite-for-the-internet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.10.9.101 (talk • contribs)


 * No. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 20:08, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Unlike the case with SOPA, there is no consensus that net neutrality is either a bad thing or a good thing. I, for example, agree with the following two editorial opinions: and I do not want Wikipedia to publicly support something that I strongly oppose. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I like how the only one I recognize in the vote from back in the day in Wikipedia is Doc. While he has a point about Net Neutrality in India, near everyone has some sort of internet access in the US. The internet access issue is not the same as in India. We already have net neutrality in the US. I guess the state of Wikipedia is in perpetual decline, exemplified by the current editor base. Proposals to support Net Neutrality would have passed with near unanimous approval back then. Now all that remains on Wikipedia are bots and deletionists. Wikipedia is forever dead to me, ossified by bureaucracy. There's a reason why editor count on Wikipedia keeps declining and the state of the remaining active editor base continues to meet my low expectations. RIP Wikipedia. &eta;oian   &Dagger;orever &eta;ew &Dagger;rontiers  22:56, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, then, I guess I and hundreds of others here are "deletionists", as we are here to build an encyclopedia, not turn it into some activist web site and throw our neutrality out the window in doing so. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 23:08, 6 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Why do I get the feeling that ηoian failed to read the two editorials I posted links to? Probably because one of them specifically addressed the issue of Wikipedia in non-US, non-Europe regions with little or no Internet access.... --Guy Macon (talk)


 * Well Guy Macon, whatever you happen to think personally, we probably shouldn't be basing our decisions on...lets be honest...openly partisan horse shit pseudo blogs from openly partisan think tanks that wouldn't, I assume, normally be allowed in an article. The government is bad, mkay does not constitute an argument. Timothy Joseph Wood  23:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * You are aware of who the author of that openly partisan horse shit pseudo blog is, right? There's arguably nobody alive who's not currently directly connected with the WMF who's better qualified to comment on legal issues affecting Wikipedia. &#8209; Iridescent 23:29, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "The government is bad, mkay" may not be a good argument, but "This will interfere with Wikipedia Zero, here's how" and "The Internet isn't broken and doesn't need fixing" certainly are. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:48, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And that doesn't prevent me from pointing out that his argument is a complete non sequitur. You want to mess with US communications regulations? Let me talk about something completely unrelated. His argument is either 1) based on a global perspective that has nothing to do with US communications regulation, or 2) ...no actually... that's pretty much it. He wants to cite WP Zero which doesn't exist in the US as an example as to why we should oppose this already exiting regulation. And makes the paper thin and embarrassingly myopic argument that reloading a WP page will increase your data usage, when completely ignoring the fact that WP is dependent on sources, and without a free and open internet we don't have very many of those.
 * It is completely a blog, with no editorial oversight, no fact checking, and nothing other than "you have a title we recognize," and the argument presented makes absolutely zero sense, and at best is we should abandon the better in hope of the perfect. If you want to link him here, feel free to do so, and let him respond to reasonable criticism, otherwise his title means jack shit very little. Timothy Joseph Wood  23:53, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The Internet still isn't broken and still doesn't need fixing. Nothing you have written so far has convinced me otherwise. Reason magazine and its associated website has editorial oversight, even over guest editorials, and has a good reputation for fact checking. They are openly biased in favor of libertarianism, but they are a reliable source. You are simply wrong about reason.
 * You are also dead wrong about Wikipedia zero. While Initial efforts have focused on allowing in poor nations with expensive (typically by mobile phone) internet connection to access Wikipedia with no data charges, it is the stated goal of the Wikimedia foundation "to work with every mobile operator on the planet".
 * Could you please dial it back a bit? I would like us to have a calm. reasoned discussion about this. In other words, less heat and more light, please. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:04, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * First, it's a think tank and openly a platform for partisan political advocacy. Whatever "editorial oversight" there is is not the type we generally care about. Second, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is actively an argument against your position, since Title II classification has been a thing for more than two years now. Third, this just has absolutely no bearing on US telecom regulations whatsoever, and "my pet project might be relevant one day" is fundamentally an absence of argument, that doesn't rise even to the level of weakness. Finally, if anyone should care about keeping Title II, it should probably be the single most visited website in the world that doesn't make anyone any money. Timothy Joseph Wood  12:50, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Evasion noted. This will interfere with the WMF's stated goals to roll out Wikipedia Zero to every mobile operator on the planet. That alone is reason enough to oppose it. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The regulations have been in effect for just short of two years, actually. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," refers to the fact that it wasn't broken before the regulations, so there was no need to fix it. In any case, the internet has about as much in common with the telephone service the 1934 law was written for as my MacBook Pro has with the typewriter I used in high school. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * One should also note that for the last two years the position of the FCC has been "we want this on the books. We have done nothing to enforce it so far, but we want the option to strat enforing it if we feel a need to in the future" --Guy Macon (talk) 14:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I was against a generic show of support against the pending FCC action when it was proposed as an independent action by WP, but as many free-speech advocate groups and tech companies are coming together on this day to rally support against the FCC, I would not see a major problem with WP showing its support. I do not think a blackout ala SOPA is appropriate, but instead something akin to the big donation banner that is used for general fundraising. However, this definitely needs a strong consensus to be implemented, lest we have people complaining moreso than after SOPA. --M ASEM (t) 23:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We have already seen that there is no strong consensus for either side of the argument, nor for jumping into the politics of it, which are not within the scope of Wikipedia's mission. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 12:59, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. Wikipedia taking my position (keep the US Internet under the laws it was under until two years ago) would be just as bad as Wikipedia taking Timothyjosephwood's position (keep the US Internet under the the laws it has been under for the last two years, but which have not been enforced so far). Clearly, neither side has a consensus, unlike the case with SOPA. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is a symptom of, and not a cause of the free flow of information, and things like WP:NPOV and WP:V live and die with that availability. We're already under siege by the slow march of journalism behind paywalls to try to keep the lights on, anemic support for things like foreign bureaus covering world issues in the English language, and an apparently ongoing public discussion about whether it's ok to make things up.


 * At the end of the day we don't make nobody any money, and we depend largely on other's that don't either: Google Books, every public archive, the entirety of of people willing to give us keys because they think we're worth it. And the moment that any of that starts to compete with anything that does make any money there's an incentive to curtail it.


 * It's great that the WMF wants to offer thimbles of water to people in the desert, but that doesn't remove the need for municipal water. And what the whole lot has in common is that it's not in the public interest to have the pressure in your pipes throttled down because the factory down the street is willing to throw somebody a few bucks, and screwing you is cheaper than actually building better infrastructure.


 * The almost condescending oversight in the argument that increased access to Wikipedia itself is going to help people edit more, (not to mention the fact that the time and attention people put into this thing are far and away more valuable than adjusting your mobile internet plan) is that if all you have access to is Wikipedia, you can't do squat with it because you have to have access to the information the project is built on, and not just the project itself.


 * It's not a terrible stretch of the imagination to think "you can read Wikipedia, or you can read high-speed Wikipedia with ads", since we license our content in a way that makes that possible, and we're apparently committed to doing nothing about a public policy decision that makes that even more viable than it already is. Timothy Joseph Wood  14:47, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I think it's useful in conversations like this to distinguish between Wikipedia the encyclopedia and Wikipedia as a social movement. We might agree that the encyclopedia and its content should not be politically biased. The encyclopedia strives to be verifiable with a neutral point of view. The movement of people who spend their time here are political. We are advocating for free knowledge and access to that knowledge.


 * From recent interview Kathrine had with Source Code Berlin (WMDE):


 * "Free knowledge is a radical act. It is political. It is absolutely political to believe in free knowledge. It's not necessarily partisan. It does not necessary align with a specific political ideality or party or side but to believe that everybody should have access to information. Everybody should participate in the creation of information. That upends everything that we know about the structure and hierarchies, the epistemology of the world. That is political. It's radical. I'm OK with that. I think we need to be able to accept that. Because we are doing something that's kind of radical. That might make people uncomfortable at times. But if we fall out of embracing that origin of where we came from - which was fundamentally disruptive of gatekeepers of knowledge we kind of lost sight of who we are."


 * I think that is a pretty bold statement to make and I agree with it as a contributor.




 * The concept of net neutrality is also one of the sticky points of Zero - it's great for folks who benefit from it, but it is not neutral. The EFF comes down pretty hard on this.


 * "Sure, zero rated services may seem like an easy band-aid fix to lessen the digital divide. But do you know what most stakeholders agree is a better approach towards conquering the digital divide? Competition..."


 * The loss of net neutrality would not help the goals of something like Zero - or the mission of the Wikipedia movement. It will make achieving our mission more difficult. Ideas like what Masem (and TheDJ in the earlier discussion) have proposed might be more fruitful. I suggest the IP and others to pursue these venues. What tools could you appropriately leverage to communicate this issue and inform readers? Perhaps a banner for US visitors? Perhaps a watchlist banner for the same group? A shared post by community members on the Wikimedia Blog? #netneutrality in every edit summary (This is a terrible idea, please don't do it. :) Go build some consensus and lets see what happens.


 * The folks who can most directly impact this initiative of the FCC Chairman are US citizens. If you are one, or know one, and feel strongly about this, now is the time to bug 'em. Posted as a volunteer, but I work for the foundation. Because I'm off the clock. I'm never off the clock. :p Ckoerner (talk) 18:14, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The Internet isn't broken. The Internet doesn't need fixing. The new FCC rules have been in place for only two years. The Internet worked just fine without them before. The new FCC rules, while on the books, have actually been enforced for zero years. The Internet is working just fine without them being enforced. If they ever do get enforced (remember, the US just got a new president and a new FCC head...), we will have given more power over the Internet to the FCC. Here is an example from the past of what happens when you give more power to the FCC: Also see: --Guy Macon (talk) 04:12, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Reviving Administrator review?
Back in 2009 when created Administrator review ( proposed it in 2006), I found it a useful process to give administrators feedback on their conduct, allowing them to identify areas they could improve in (and yes, sometimes bask in the praise of their fellow editors). However, the process seems to have gone into a longer slumber; I myself only realized it because TPH proposed deleting a template that was used in conjunction with the process. I believe the process served a valid purpose for the forementioned reasons and I wonder whether there would be support to revive it, rather than let it die. Maybe it just needs more attention? Regards  So Why  12:42, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The feedback gained from it was good. I'd have no problem seeing it revived and I'd participate there to help keep it alive.  One drawback was, a few times, I've seen someone use the volunteer process as an attack.  An example is "TParis, an administrator under review, has done things I don't like...."--v/r - TP 14:15, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems like a good idea, but how does one know that there is a review going on? &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:44, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ...is a good question. I created Administrator review back in the day to advertise it on your own user/talk page but that's limited to people who see those pages. Maybe we can integrate it into User:Cyberpower678/RfX Report which is widely transcluded? Regards  So Why  14:58, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As an administrator, I do not want to be held accountable for my actions as I am better than everyone. -- John Reaves 18:34, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep it up, you'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.... Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 18:59, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I also found it a useful process, and thought it was too bad it died out. If it is to be revived, there should certainly be a plan in place to make it more known to the community as that seems to be what caused it to die out. The board was only seeing a few requests per year for the last several years and replies were scant, sometimes taking 4-6 months for a single comment. The last review ever asked for there got two "why isn't anyone commenting" replies 4 and 5 months after it was posted, and then I came along two months after that and closed the whole show down as it had obviously croaked. Better notifications could possibly include a list at WP:AN of open review requests, posting on WP:CENT that just say "some administrators are currently open for review" or words to that effect. Something, because I think we should have this but nobody was paying attention to it for whatever reason. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:05, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know about that specific process, I have not followed it, but we do need ways to improve admin accountability, and the possibility of mutual learning. It needs to be carefully (re)implemented so that we don't get a witch hunt tool. - Nabla (talk) 20:26, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It was a non-binding, entirely voluntary process for admins to get feedback on their actions. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:24, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I knew that, what I do not know is if it was useful or not and why. I am sorry for not explaining myself properly. - Nabla (talk) 23:21, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I think that it might be worth reviving as a way to generate useful feedback, but what would we do to address the problems that User:Beeblebrox identified above? I see little point in reviving it only for it to immediately go dormant again.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:14, 9 June 2017 (UTC).
 * I am uncertain how useful it is anymore since feedbacks on admins can be used in other venues, like user talk pages. WP:Editor review was closed several years ago for the same reasons as "Administrator review". --George Ho (talk) 04:31, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ER was closed because it was hopelessly backlogged and then partly replaced by WP:OCRP but AREV has no replacement. The problem of user talk pages or similar venues is that feedback is usually only given based on specific incidents while AREV sought to allow admins to gain feedback on their conduct in general. As mentioned above, reviving only makes sense if AREV gets the kind of attention it got back in '09 - and the point of this proposal is to see if that's the case. Regards  So Why  06:33, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * A list of such reviews, including ones edited in 2016 can helps analyze whether the feedback process had been useful. As I see, the ones from that year were overlooked and very less hyped. Ooh... I see one still open... just receiving very little feedback. Shall that review be transcluded here or where else? George Ho (talk) 07:11, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * BTW, one admin asked for opinions on whether he fits to be a bureaucrat. Is this a good replacement to this abandoned process? --George Ho (talk) 12:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to avoid misleading anyone looking for a general review, the optional RFA candaidate poll has nothing to do with the closure of the editor review process. The poll was set up years later and is explicitly not for general feedback. isaacl (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As a person who strongly believes that administrators should be more accountable to the community than they currently are, I would strongly support this. As an admin who frequents politically contentious areas, I would need restrictions in place to make sure it does not turn into a pointless shitstorm of "I don't like you" before I used it, though I would very much like to. I wonder if, given that the process is entirely voluntary, we should give the admins undergoing review the chance to protect their review page at the level they would like. Vanamonde (talk) 10:39, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... Personally, I always thought of AREV as something akin to RfA. You volunteer to be reviewed and if some users think they have to misuse the page to air their grievances, there are plenty of (other) admins around to moderate the discussion and prevent it from spiraling out of control. The page already notes that it is intended to review administrative actions and conduct in general and that unresolved specific issues should not be discussed there but at the user talk page or another venue. Imho, it would be sufficient if other editors enforced this rule by clerking the discussion and preventing single-issue arguments there. I don't think the admin being reviewed should be allowed to moderate their own review though and instituting page protection without prior disruptions seems counterproductive, doesn't it? Regards  So Why  11:52, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We'd suffer the same problems we suffer at RfA. Despite that a train of thought will obviously be disruptive and unhelpful, like minded editors will keep restoring material and claim that no one has the authority to remove it.--v/r - TP 12:20, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * At one time I thought this was a good idea, and would have liked some opinions. But actually it is a lot of work to review a user overall. I reallise that I myself don't want to spend my time checking up what others have done, unless there is a more pressing reason.  Perhaps instead an automated process could assess some stats, such as how often admin decisions and actions are reversed, how long is spent prior to each deletion or block. How responsive they are to talk complaints. How lazy they are. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:19, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Time to increase the default image size again
Surely it is now time to increase the default image size again, from the current 220px to say 280px? I'm aware that images display differently on the vast range of devices people now use, and that (as I understand it) mobile phones aren't affected by the default size at all. For larger screens the current image size is ridiculously small, and even on smaller ones far smaller than what most websites give. We should also promote the option in preferences to vary default sizes for logged-on users, and perhaps use this as an example of the benefits of registering. Does anyone know where the current data on preference selections for default image sizes can be found? Johnbod (talk) 17:04, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to oppose this. In the past we've periodically increased the default image size because typical monitors were steadily getting larger, but recently the rapid spread of tablets and laptops and the decline in the use of desktop PCs means this is no longer the case. (Unless someone is using the Wikipedia app—which few do—image sizing still definitely has an effect in mobile view.) On the usual places where non-editors raise perceived issues, like Talk:Main Page, I'm not aware of a single recent example of any query along the lines of "why are all your images so small?". What I would support is formally removing the maximum widths from the MOS and more encouragement of editors to use upright=2 (or whatever) on images containing a lot of detail. &#8209; Iridescent 17:36, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And yet our images seem smaller on tablets and laptops than those of most websites. Johnbod (talk) 07:31, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And yet our images seem smaller on tablets and laptops than those of most websites. Johnbod (talk) 07:31, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

CSD 7.5?
Hey gang, now before you get to setting my head ablaze, hear me out. So a helpee popped in today, and brought this 'lil gem to our attention. I felt it was CSD worthy, but it was thankfully brought to my attention there's no "rule" covering this under CSD. I mentioned it in the AfD, but this kinda feels like a gap we should cover. Seems silly to give people a free week in the spotlight (yes, Google indexed it) because of a shortcoming in our policies. I'm not sure "what" the right answer is, but would love some of your sage feedback. Maybe a "Entirely self sourced" criteria? I know this is unlikely to happen, but I can dream. Thanks in advance for your feedback! Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk  23:38, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Correct. Such pages are ineligible for speedy deletion unless they fall under G1, G11, A7, A11 or some another criterion for speedy deletion. Remember that it is the notability of such a page that determines whether it should be deleted, not the content. If a subject is notable and the content could plausibly be replaced with text that complies with neutral point of view, this is preferable to deletion. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I entirely agree but, as a note, WP:BEFORE was done to no avail. Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk  00:01, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I sympathize. There have been moments (I'm sure we have all had them) where you run into something at AfD and you really wish there was a CSD for "This piece of bleep just needs to go." But there isn't and it's not really hurting anything by letting AfD do its thing. Beyond that I've addressed the specifics at the ongoing AfD discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:04, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for your feedback both here and on the AfD, much appreciated. I suppose I agree that it doesn't "hurt," but I get worried when I see such "loopholes" since they're a blog post away from being exploited. I suppose one could, and I'm sure someone will, say that we should address when it does hurt, but I think it's deletion is so obviously uncontentious it just seems like a waste of people's time in an area of WP that seems to be dwindling. Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk  00:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Eh. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. We get this kind of soft promotion all the time. What does it matter if it goes in ten minutes or a week? On a side note, although it's not exactly common, I have seen AfD's SNOW closed as obvious deletes if the delete !votes really start to pile up with no credible Keep arguments. But yeah, just relax. Unless I missed something (always possible, which is why we have AfD) this article is on its way out. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:18, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * , for what it is worth, if this had been a few days ago, that page would not have been indexed for 90 days instead of 30. Local policy has been to have the index period set to 90 days for a while, but this was not implemented until very recently by the WMF staff. Since it was created before the technical implementation of 90 days _NOINDEX_ on enwiki, it was indexed after 30 days. Not an answer to the problem, but an FYI that the problem of indexing has to some extent been fixed now. We're pretty good about getting the blatant crap out before that point, though unfortunately still too much sneaks by. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * That we sometimes have to have discussions on clearly non-notable topics is a necessary side effect of having a strict policy. But I'd rather have 20 such discussions than 1 valid article being deleted because of a too lax speedy deletion policy. Erring on the side of caution is always preferable when it comes to CSD. On a side note, you should bring such proposals to WT:CSD or at least leave a note there, since many editors rather watch that talk page than here. Regards  So Why  09:53, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but then why bother having CSD for anything other that copy vios? I don't mean to re-hash the whole A7 debate, but if we have "non-notable organization" why not "non-notable concept/belief?". Seems like you could just tack "The belief of" before your spammy article and skirt around CSD. I don't disagree, and I think erring on the side of AfD is good, but it kinda feels like it should be all or nothing, just my two cents.Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk
 * Oh, and by the way, good suggestion about plopping a note on that talk, I'll do so. Drewmutt ( ^ᴥ^ ) talk  23:38, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Most of the really bad examples of belief systems can be dispatched through A11 or G3 depending if they were made up in the cafeteria or just a hoax. For everything else, AfD makes sense. Its the difference between the Evangelical counsels and the Order of Friars Minor. The former is a broader concept that your average editor probably isn't going to know about and could be notable with digging (and definitely is in this case). The other is clearly a very notable group and you can tell at first glance is significant. Its much more difficult to tell if a conceptual framework is significant than it is a group. I get that it can be annoying, but at the end, I think it make sense. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Note: this page is only indexed due to its age (nearly 2 years). AFD, PROD, and CSD templates all apply noindex, which works on all articles younger than 90 days. – Train2104 (t • c) 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Preserve the search term during search
Wikipedia helps disseminate information, a marvel of the modern era.

One minor point raised herein to help it to be even greater: when searching a term, the search term disappears in the resulting page. If one wants to modify the term and do another search, s/he has to type the entire word. For instance, if I want to change the word wikipedia to wikimedia by just retyping the 2nd half of the word, that would make thing faster! This feature is common at many if not most of other websites such as www.dictionary.com. Wikipedia should be at least as good.

At least when one does a search that has a "redirect" one has "redirected from..." at the top  - certainly this has been the case in my experience, but what have other people found?Vorbee (talk) 08:38, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

OK it does not always work - I have now had experience of clicking a blue link and not getting the "redirected from" note at the top  - but in many cases, I have.Vorbee (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree, it would be good to have this. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This was a feature that was added to the mobile app at first. During some user testing with non-technical users, we discovered it presented a huge usability issue: people had trouble finding the search function again afterwards. People frequently thought their old search query was the title, even though it wasn't uncommon for their query to be quite different from the page title. Given the fact our search interface is quite bad and outdated in general, it's not a good idea to add things that we know can cause usability issues. I'd also note that dictionary.com makes some pretty fundamental mistakes with their search feature—such as keeping the box highlighted after searching and navigating, meaning you can't use keyboard keys to scroll after searching—so treating them as some kind of golden standard for us to aspire to isn't a great idea. --Dan Garry, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Time to revive WP:NCHAR?
I've noticed that the majority of pages in Category:A Song of Ice and Fire characters seem to have serious fan-cruft problems and are written almost entirely as plot summaries. We also have articles on extremely minor characters like Khal Drogo who were played by (retroactively?) famous actors in the TV show and so are popular out of proportion with their importance in the books/show, and also out of proportion of what we could write about them.

I looked around for the appropriate notability guideline, and it turns out we don't have one -- the proposed guideline (Notability (fictional characters)) was apparently abandoned because of lack of discussion. Lacking a solid guideline we have all this crap floating around the encyclopedia. I'm a big fan of WP:POKEMON, which I feel probably should have the status of a guideline given how widely accepted it is.

Drmies also expressed a similar view on his talk page a few months back, which is what originally got me thinking about this whole problem, but I'm not sure if he'd want to be pinged or not.

Thoughts?

Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 07:39, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We can try to revive it; I myself also see the proposed guideline as a good idea, and it would be nice to have at least something about this. Sky  Warrior  21:16, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

WP: NCHAR currently has a note saying it has become dormant, and is merely being kept for historical reasons. This may make people wonder what it is doing in Wikipedia, but I can see the value of the site. It would be more specific than WP: GNG, and would form a good template for guidelines on what characters from a novel, short story or play should have their own articles. Sometimes, it would seem obvious that certain characters, such as those playing the title role in Shakespearean drama, should have their own articles; sometimes, there may be room for more discussion on whether a character merits his or her own article. So, many thanks for drawing this set of guidlines to our attention - it could have value and worth. Vorbee (talk) 15:03, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * There's been nothing in how notability is handled that changes the last failed consensus for fictional element notability, leaving the default to the GNG, which most individual characters fail (That is, I cannot think of any other metric that would be able to presume that a character could eventually met the GNG). I would think it might be good to have a pseudo-notability guideline of what are the minimum qualities we need to see for a character article that we'd expect to be meeting the GNG, namely something about the character's development, and something about the character's reception, along with a brief fictional biography (this is where most character articles fail), but it doesn't make sense to make a new subject-specific notability guideline when there are no new criteria to be applied. --M ASEM (t) 15:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The problem with that page right now is that it is basically empty, it does not really say anything useful that may help to decide if the character is notable or not. Before discussing about turning it into a guideline, improve it yourself so that it actually seems like a guideline, and then ask for more users to provide opinions, propose changes or additions. One starting point: how do you set apart the notability of a character and the notability of the work that features him? And also note that "fictional character" is too broad a concept: you have characters from films, TV series, animated series, books, comic books, videogames, classic tales, myths, etc. The guideline should somehow take into account the nature of all those works and their publishing styles. Cambalachero (talk) 13:14, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's where a "how to get GNG notability for characters" guideline might come into play, rather than a "notability guideline". There are ways to distinguish character from the work, generally if the character gets extra attention in the development or reception sections beyond the reception that the ensemble cast/characters get. And this generally works well across all types of mediums, recognizing that what are RSes for the different mediums might change. (eg for video games, we expect them to be using sources outlined at WP:VG/S, for television, I'd expect more reliance on Variety, THR, EW, and other trade publications, etc.) But central still remains that a character is only really considered notable if they meet the GNG, and the only way reliably to do that is to have development details and reception (all secondary information), and far less focus on the primary details (fictional biography). --M ASEM (t) 14:16, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

While you guys are discussing the whole guideline as attempt to limit fancruft, there is Wikifiction (In-universe encyclopedia), a proposed project that can house all the fancruft that editors can be good at. Also, it's an ad-free version of Wikia. George Ho (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)


 * There is a wiki focused on in-universe, which is already running and thriving: TV Tropes. Despite the name, it allows content from all sources of fiction. Cambalachero (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

On the subject of how to distinguish characters from their works, can I point out that this might be a guideline here? A character might have notability if his/her character has given rise to a word in the English language that will mean something beyond the book - for example, Scrooge in Dickens' A Christmas Carol. Vorbee (talk) 15:27, 9 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Checking things a bit further, there was a lot of discussion at Notability (fiction), which aims to be about both fictional elements (including characters) and portions of a fictional work (such as episodes). I have not checked yet the content of the discussions or the rejected versions, but I noticed that those discussions are from 2010 and before. --Cambalachero (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * NFICT was one of my first policy and guideline discussions in 2007/2008. It was a mess, and even if it had not been, it's probably not necessary in this day and age. A handful of the participants in that discussion are still around, but most are not. --Izno (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No new notability guidelines are needed or helpful:
 * 1) Unsupported details can be removed via regular editing.
 * 2) Articles with <2 RS'es, without any hope for more, can be merged to character lists, episodes in which they appear, etc.
 * What problem, exactly, exists that cannot be dealt with through this sort of regular editing? Jclemens (talk) 02:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

It might interest readers of this proposal and its responses that Jessica(Merchant of Venice) is currently on Articles for deletion list. Responses to this might be easier to make if WP: NCHAR were revived. Vorbee (talk) 17:19, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Per above, another subject-specific notability guideline is unnecessary, especially for fictional characters. We already have one discussion declaring GNG neither replaced nor superseded by SNG, but GNG is not a hard-and-fast rule. Other existing rules, like WP:Notability and WP:Deletion policy, are adequate as they are. Since that discussion, there's no point on making another notability guideline or a guideline that would fail for a few or several years. We might change GNG rule, but I guess it is either too soon or bizarre to others. An alternative is a proposed sister project, but I guess it won't please some others yet. --George Ho (talk) 02:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Adding the watchlist button to hovercards
It would be helpful to be able to see whether an article was on your watchlist without having to click it. Would it be possible to add a similar star to the thumbnail of articles so that you can see if the article is on your watchlist (and maybe even add it to your watchlist)? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 17:20, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting idea Absolutelypuremilk. I spoke to the product manager for Page Previews/Hovercards and she created a task to discuss this further. CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Brilliant, thanks! Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Bot to fix certain common comma issues in articles
I've been tinkering with code to fix certain common comma issues in articles in a way that doesn't throw up a whole bunch of false positives. Before I go further, I'd like to see if the community would actually support a bot running this task. To give you an example of the sorts of things I think a bot could do without running afoul of WP:CONTEXTBOT:

Consider phrases of the form "Before 2017". These dependent clauses universally need commas, but there's a potential context issue if they're part of a longer clause (e.g. "Before 2017 buildings were constructed, ..."). They also may not need a comma if they come at the end of a sentence (e.g. "He had never acted before 2017"). My solution is to make the edit only when it is followed by a pronoun or article (he, she, they, it, the, a, an) and only when the first word of the clause is capitalized (fixing the second issue). That limits what the bot would edit to things like "Before 2017, he ...", which unambiguously needs a comma. This is a very common grammatical error introduced by young people or non-native writers.

The regex for this particular fix is currently:  -->

I've found zero errors in about ~300 edits when I've used this code semi-automatically, so it appears fairly robust.

Is this a bot the community would support if it could be demonstrated that the false positive rate is very low (<0.1%) or nonexistent? ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 13:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)


 * There are few universally agreed-upon rules of English grammar. For example, I don't agree with your statement that "Before 2017, he ..." must contain a comma. I expect that many of the "corrections" you plan to make would be controversial, because of a lack of consensus for your ideas about English grammar. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There are certain types of commas which are controversial (e.g. Oxford comma), but the fact that an introductory dependent clause requires a comma is not one such example. It's an accepted grammatical rule that is present in all style guides, not "my idea". I would obviously never propose to make fixes like the Oxford comma, because those aren't true "fixes". ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 17:29, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, this is outright in our Manual of Style, and it states we need a comma after all dates, not just those in a dependent clause. See MOS:COMMA. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 17:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * MOS:COMMA states we need a comma after all m-d-y dates. It says "Dates in month–day–year format require a comma after the day, as well as after the year ..." It does not say we need a comma after d-m-y dates. It does not say we need a comma when the year only is given. — Stanning (talk) 13:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is the kind of change that should be manually reviewed. There are assisted-editing frameworks that could help, and it is possible to use a database scan to make a list of articles to look at. But each change should be manually reviewed, rather than made completely automatically by a bot. Just as one example of a corner case, "Before 2012 or 2013, she ... ". I'm sure there are more examples like that one. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that edit wouldn't be made by my regex. The point isn't to make all beneficial grammar changes, just the ones we can be sure would be correct. I certainly invite editors to point out corner cases, but what you stated isn't a false positive. I've already run a database scan, and it returned 400,000 pages. That's a bit outside the range of what I can do semi-automatically. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 17:29, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, thanks. I did check MOS:COMMA, which only mentions dates in month-day-year format. I also checked the Chicago Manual of Style, which says "An introductory adverbial phrase is often set off by a comma but need not be unless misreading is likely." (section 6.36) and gives this as a correct example: "After 1956 such complaints about poor fidelity became far less common." (no comma). So there is not a unanimity in style guides that a comma is required. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 18:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also in WP:MOS I find "Since 2001 the grant has been 10,000,000 Swedish kronor" as a correct example. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 18:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi BU Rob13, personally I don't really support a job of 400000 edits to "add a comma" here; I don't see it is making a significant impact on readers - and don't see it alone as a "hook" if you wanted to scope creep this to 'comma adder + a pile of genfixes'. Seems like this should go in to one of those other "gen fix" piles. —  xaosflux  Talk 18:28, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair. I'm not that attached to the idea myself, but I have been trying to think of "substantial" genfixes to perhaps reduce drama surrounding the cosmetic genfixes. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 20:06, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I support this task. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:06, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As I pointed out above, the MOS does not require the comma, and even gives "Since 2001 the grant has been 10,000,000 Swedish kronor" as an example of an acceptable style. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 20:10, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That sentence is being pulled a bit out of context. It isn't giving appropriate style for commas. It's giving appropriate style for currencies. The lack of comma seems to be an error unrelated to the section its in. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 00:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And the Chicago Manual of Style explicitly saying that commas of that sort are optional? &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 02:17, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

This should be an AWB script, not a bot task. It will inevitably hit some false positives, which aren't worth the minuscule benefit of the change. It should only be done with live human review, IMO. Kaldari (talk) 04:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * , a comma isn't needed after a short introductory clause such as "in 2017". See, for example, Hart's Rules, pp. 75–76: comma not essential if the introductory clause is a short one specifying time or location: "Indeed, the comma is best avoided here so as to prevent the text from appearing cluttered." SarahSV (talk) 06:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I (and my grammar instinct) agree with SV on this point. --NSH001 (talk) 09:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Our manual of style disagrees, as do many style guides. MOS:COMMA. In any event, I've pretty much withdrawn this. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 15:06, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Although the proposal may be withdrawn, I want to point out for postierity that MOS:COMMA only mentions "Dates in month–day–year format" - these are not what is being discussed here, which are plain years without month or day. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 15:10, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Beyond what's said here, consider alternative uses of the phrase. For example, it would be outright inappropriate to add a comma after "2017" in the sentence "Before 2017 concluded, John and Mary had gotten married"; any English-speaking human knows that, but the bot wouldn't.  I see that you've pretty much withdrawn this; I'm just throwing this in as a reminder if someone else re-proposes this in the future.  Nyttend (talk) 23:55, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This idea is still dead, but just want to note this is a misunderstanding of what I stated. My bot idea was to add a comma after "Before 2017" if and only if it is followed by a pronoun or article, both of which would indicate the start of a new clause. That would rule out "Before 2017 concluded". I was trying to carve out a very niche but common sentence structure that a bot could accurately detect and correct. This of course leaves behind many sentences that would not be corrected, but better to have some fixed than none. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 05:08, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right; I'm sorry I misread that. Nyttend (talk) 05:33, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Wording of InternetArchiveBot, et al. with regard to its "friendly" tone
The InterentArchiveBot regularly leaves messages on article talk pages that begin with "Hello, fellow Wikipedians!" and that end with "Cheers!". This was done initially to give the bot a "friendly" feel for readers. However, newcomers to the site who are not familiar with the -bot suffix and used to seeing only people writing to other people on talk pages are bound to be confused by such messages, and not understand that they are from an automated routine rather than a person. I suggested that the bot's operator, Cyperpower678 adjust the wording of the messages but he has asked me to seek some consensus before doing so. That is what I am here to do. I would much prefer that notices from bots make clear in their tone that they are from a bot and not from a human— I don't think this makes Wikipedia "cold", I think it makes it "clear", and I firmly believe clarity is something to be preferred over friendliness any day when we are talking about our articles and their content. But what do others think? KDS4444 (talk) 23:40, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Operator comment: Given there's a consensus, any template-editor or administrator can make the appropriate alterations on the bot's on wiki configuration page.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 23:45, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support the idea, although I'd appreciate a more concrete proposal. Please either supply wording that you want to see approved, or make it clearer that you're seeking consensus for Cyberpower to adjust the wording as he sees fit.  I would be happy to support the second, but if you propose specific wording, please let me know so I can offer an opinion on it.  Nyttend (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, how about instead of "Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified 8 external links on [this article]. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes..." followed by "...When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know..." and finally "Cheers." to something more like, "The following message has been generated by an automated 'bot' The bot has just modified 8 external links on [this article].  This message is to encourage human editors to review my edits.  If you have any questions [aside: questions about what, exactly??] or need the bot to ignore the links [another aside: I don't even know what that means] or the page altogether, please visit this simple FAQ for additional information.  The bot made the following changes..."  followed by "When an editor has finished reviewing these changes, he or she should set the checked parameter below to 'true' or 'failed' to let other editors know..." and I'd have it end with "Thank you" (rather than "Cheers", as "Cheers" is just not something a bot should be saying).  But I would also be very glad to let Cyberpower concoct his own wording if there is anything objectionable at all about mine.  KDS4444 (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd like to think IABot has it's own basic form of intelligence when it comes to analyzing articles, and don't like the bot referring to itself in 3rd person.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 00:13, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I concur. Also, "Cheers" is normal British for "Thanks" so there's really not much difference there. Primefac (talk) 00:16, 30 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I genuinely have no preference towards what the message actually says (I've always ignored everything but the links in the past), but I do have a question - is there really a huge concern about who is placing a message? If a new editor sees a message saying "Hello Wikipedians, these links have been changed" vs "Hello Wikipedians, I'm a bot and I changed these links" is it really going to change their understanding of how Wikipedia works? I mean, if so, go for it, but it seems like we're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Primefac (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I agree with you completely: this is not a big deal, but Cyberpower asked me to seek consensus before changing it, so I am following his suggestion. KDS4444 (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And I ask for this because IABot posts these messages routinely every day. That's a wiki wide change from my point of view.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 00:20, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And you don't want to have to deal with continual requests to modify. -- Green  C  00:53, 30 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep same Not saying the current wording is perfect but I've never seen a mythical newbie become confused. Probably a concern is stylistic, some prefer a less casual tone. The reason to keep is practical. If we ever need to go back with a bot and modify or read those notices it will be problematic to deal with changing messages. -- Green  C  00:53, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not a newbie and the first several times I encountered this message I had to clarify for myself that it was just an automated message. It's not that I didn't figure it out, it's that I had to spend the unnecessary energy to do it.  There I was, confused.  Now you've heard it.  But have it your way, if you like.  Proposal withdrawn.  KDS4444 (talk) 09:57, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Recommendations
Imagine you're a newcomer and you join Wikipedia and make a couple edits on Waffle and 2015 World Pastry Cup. It mostly goes OK. A few minutes later you get a message thanking you for your contributions and inviting you to check out some work lists from User:WikiPancake -- a member of the local "Welcome squad" at WikiProject Food and Drink. I'm trying to figure out how to recommend newcomers to WikiProject organizers or maybe even to recommend WikiProjects to newcomers. What do you think? Check out my project proposal at this meta-page. Bobo.03 (talk) 16:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The projects that most need recruits are excluded from your study. Whether this will introduce any bias is another question. I would guess some but not much. &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:44, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, "the projects that most need recruits" are probably identical to "the projects least capable of supporting recruits". I think (having spent many years hanging around at WP:COUNCIL) that we're better off directing all but the most experienced editors to the larger groups.  "WikiProject Joe Film" is almost always doomed to failure (usually within a year of its creation) and unable to assist less experienced editors; "WikiProject Film" is not.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)


 * What WikiProjects are in your mind that will need more editors to help, Pbsouthwood? I understand your point that many "developing" projects might need help for its construction. Also, as WhatamIdoing mentioned, some of those projects are very likely not able to support recruits and provide guidance for the recruited editors, or newcomers, which can potentially backfire our purpose. For instance, what if those editors find the projects to be garbage.. That's also a reason we want to start from the most active ones for our study.. Not sure if this would make you feel reasonable. Bobo.03 (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

If one goes to the talk page of an article, one normally sees - quite clearly  - messages stating that this article is under the scope of several WikiProjects. Possibly, the existence of WikiProjects would be more conspicuous if the "this article is within the scope of these WikiProjects" logo headed the article and not the article's talk page?Vorbee (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikiprojects are not encyclopaedic content and are therefore unsuitable for inclusion in the main article space. They would indeed be more visible, but would have to be kept out of the actual article text. There is also the problem of inactive projects, and projects where the activity fluctuates unpredictably. Do we want to list them at the top of articles? &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:37, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I take your point. I have also noticed how often, if one looks at the history of an article then clicks on the "Number of Watchers" icon, then goes to the article's talk page and does likewise, one will get an equivalent number of watchers. This suggests that people who are reading articles are, in general, going to the talk pages, so people should be noting the project pages with associations to the article, as the "This article is linked to these wikiprojects" icon is always linked here. Vorbee (talk) 14:57, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As both article and talk go on to watchlists together, on most settings anyway, I think they will always be the same. I'm pretty sure that, as the individual page view figures show, hardly anyone looks at talk pages, absent a row going on. Sandro Botticelli gets over 1,000 views a day, the talk page averages 1. Johnbod (talk) 15:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Request for new tool
I have no clue if this is practical; that's one reason I'm coming here, together with the fact that a single user's request is less significant than a request that got lots of support at WP:VP/Pr.

If an edit war occurs on a less-heavily-trafficked page, and nobody watching the page happens to report it, the chances of the war being caught are minimal, especially if no edit warrior wants to risk a boomerang by reporting at WP:ANEW. What if we had a tool that tracked pages with (1) lots of recent edits by multiple people, and (2) no recent edits to the talk page? It would still miss some edit-wars, and it would find a bunch of pages that aren't experiencing any conflicts, but I can imagine it being useful: people looking at the page's top hits would more easily find an ongoing edit war, thus making it easier for them to report it. Nyttend (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am incredulous that such a tool does not already exist, and that we still have to rely on vigilant third parties to even notice that an edit war is taking place anywhere. We should absolutely have a tool that monitors this automatically so that we can check those articles and see if such a war is taking place.  'Cause many times, it would be!  KDS4444 (talk) 00:07, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, this could be taken one step further. An admin bot that monitors pages being actively edited and checks for back and forth reverts.  If it detects a certain threshold of warring it auto protects the page with the minimum needed protection to stop all parties from warring.  The affected parties are warned and the page protection lasts 48 hours.  This is something I could write up.  I have experience with advanced bots and could probably fashion up a good bot to do the job.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 00:10, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That would make you my hero. That would be great!!!  KDS4444 (talk) 00:12, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I enjoy the idea. It's possible the cluebot also partly does some of this, it can report at AIV and appears to sometimes revert edits simply because they have recently been reverted already (in case it can serve as reference point).  Of course, its focus is vandalism not warring.  — Paleo  Neonate  - 00:17, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm really concerned at the idea of an adminbot or anything else that actively does something. Imagine that an article is suddenly in the news, and lots of people start editing the article in a generally collaborative fashion without anybody having reason to go to talk — the page would be reported as edit-warring with my proposed tool, but while a human could easily see that it wasn't, a bot couldn't.  What would such a bot do if some people were hitting "undo" or rollback, while others were merely going into the page history and reverting manually?  Or what if some editors are warring while others are making productive edits, i.e. a couple of blocks are better than page protection?  There are just too many factors for a bot to handle, but given the tool, a human could easily discriminate between war and no-war.  Nyttend (talk) 00:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed there are many factors, and I have general ideas on how to account for them. This would be seriously tested before it actually performs any action.  I operate IABot, in which the parser, which I designed, has to account for the human formatting factor.  So complex operations and analysis is something I am capable of doing.  The bot would cache recent revisions and compare new revisions to older revisions and look for matches to determine reverts.  It would analyze the ratio of editors reverting to a preferred version.  A many-to-one ratio would indicate users reverting possible vandalism.  It would keep track of the reverting users and look for patterns spanning over the last 3 days of the article's history.  It's certainly doable.  The algorithms of how the bot handles the diplomacy can be figured out before the bot goes into development.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 00:47, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We already have bots that automatically revert possible vandalism and test edits— while a certain degree of careful implementation is clearly necessary with this proposal, I think we'd be fools not to at least see if it can be done. We got the guy with the bot programming skills on board to create the program, let's see what it can do.  If it messes up in a trial run, then we can either discard it or modify it.  But what if it works??  If it works, then edit wars can no longer hope to go unnoticed.  As I said before, I think this idea is one that Wikipedia is long overdue to bring into reality.  We say edit warring is bad, we say there are consequences for doing it, but we have no tools to make sure it gets dealt with if it happens and no one is around to notice and report it.  KDS4444 (talk) 01:11, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd like to suggest we call it "Warbot"! KDS4444 (talk) 01:13, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] Aside from my hesitation at using an adminbot for anything other than routine issues (e.g. updating DYK, blocking open proxies, adding Pp to full-protected pages, handling a one-time task approved by the community), I'm uncomfortable with this idea because of the response that it would be designed to make. What if you have a few editors making a mess amidst a lot of editors doing good work?  How would the bot know that blocking is better than protecting?  I see absolutely no reason for a bot to protect a page when blocking a miscreant or two is a much better response, and aside from open proxies, there's no way that a bot should be blocking anyone without constant human oversight of some sort — people rightly get upset when a misconfigured filter or a mis-understanding bot prevents a specific edit or wrongly interprets a good edit as vandalism, but imagine the effect if they get blocked by a bot, or if the page gets bot-protected in the middle of a good string of edits!  Perfect is the enemy of good, but I believe that we're better off with the current system than with a bot doing this.  Nyttend (talk) 01:19, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, automated reporting of possible edit wars would be a good addition, but an adminbot that auto-protects such pages could easily end up protecting a vandalised revision, or one with contentious unsourced statements on a BLP. Fixing this would be much harder than e.g. simply reverting Cluebot. <b style="color:#da0000;">Daß</b> &thinsp; <b style="color:#0044c3;">Wölf</b> 01:26, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The bot could also just warn and report users, and not do anything at all to stop the warring. I'm certain a good adminbot could be designed.  I do research the topics before designing, but it doesn't have to try and stop the edit war.  Like I said designing algorithms for complex cases is something I'm pretty good at.  Either way, I merely suggested it, as an option, and like I said in my RfA, any bot using admin permissions would be heavily scrutinized and tested before being allowed to execute any admin tasks.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 01:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of the bot if it only reports and doesn't take action. If it generated a report on a page we could watch, (AN and ANI would not be good, needs to be dedicated page, like AN/Bot) then we just check when we see changes.  This also gives us a good picture of what is going on wiki-wide and the page and archives would be full of interesting snapshots of editor activity.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 01:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I can go and explore making a bot the generates a reliable report. The idea of it being an adminbot can always be revisited in the future if it turns out the bot can be trusted with such a task.— CYBERPOWER  ( Message ) 01:48, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That it could only report at first also seems ideal to me. If it could also make use of the existing edit tagging system, that may also be a plus?  This would allow a second stage to include reports at the abuselog if so (it's unclear to me at this point if only edit filters can currently tag edits though)...  Another complication is that it might need to take into account common CIDR ranges (and "grow" the network that is to be reported).  (Example of someone soapboxing multiple times from 171.78.0.0/16 at History of Earth.)  I have some experience dealing with the latter type of scenario since I authored IDS software, but for efficiency at a large enough scale it might require patricia trees implemented in C...  — Paleo  Neonate  - 02:17, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Just as I wanted a tool to find possible EW situations, I think a reporting bot would be great. It wouldn't be "forced to choose" between blocking and protecting, and false positives could be handled with the undo button instead of forcing us to unblock someone or unprotect a page.  Please just be careful to have the bot wait a while (a day or two?) after reporting a page before making the next report about the same page; it really wouldn't be pretty if the bot were determined to list something and got into an edit war with a human :-)  Nyttend (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * PS, we have a bot subpage for AIV. Maybe we could create a bot subpage for AN3?  We already handle edit-warring there anyway; I don't see how it would help if the bot reported at some other page.  Nyttend (talk) 03:13, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Go for it, we stand to gain more than lose. If it works well, we have a useful new tool, if it fails, we learn from it why it doesn't work. &bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:16, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that the bot does not report any editors names. Just the page name would do. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 12:14, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I would support a report-only bot for now, and the possibilityof a protection bot can be decided later based on the false-positive rate of the report-only bot. To convince us that the protection bot is a good idea, it can estimate the likelyhood level of needing admin action, and we can then decide on a threshhold for bot protection. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 03:27, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The WMF is currently working on a Community health initiative on English Wikipedia. They are investigating, and building tools for, exactly this kind of issue. I posted a link to this discussion on the Initiative's talk page. Alsee (talk) 21:57, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @User:Alsee, for bringing this discussion to our attention. The WMF's Anti-Harassment Tools team is currently exploring how the Edit filter (AbuseFilter) can be used to combat harassment and I proposed a filter for 3RR violations. (I acknowledge an edit war is not an act of harassment itself, but is often the impetus for harassing behavior.) In general I would agree that edit wars are too nuanced for a bot/filter to block or protect and I agree it would be more appropriate to gently remind (or educate, if they're a new user) of the edit-war policy. A log could also be useful. We'd have to add some new functionality to the Edit filter to get this to work, which would take a few months to accomplish if prioritized. @User:Cyberpower678 will likely be able to more quickly build a proof-of-concept log, and we can learn from what it shows us! Cyberpower — let us know in IRC if/how we can help! — Trevor Bolliger, WMF Product Manager 🗨  15:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Trevor. Considering the intricacies this bot has to handle, and the complexity of human interaction, this bot is still being conceptualized before I start building it.— CYBERPOWER  ( Chat ) 16:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Disable/opt-out option needed for sister projects search results
That about says it. It appears there have been RFCs & discussions about this new feature, I posted a query about it on VP:tech ( see here but apparently I was supposed to post here?... I don't need it in my editing, these sister project results visually clutter up the page plus the results I have been getting are not useful. YMMV, etc, but I'd really like to be given the (checkbox) option to opt-out.  I think I am supposed to ping the folks from that discussion to this discussion so here ya go:,  . Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment - I added this discussion to Template:Centralized discussion because the search results update affects everyone, including those unsigned (i.e. using IP addresses) and registered editors. --George Ho (talk) 06:17, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I note that there was a community RFC (on VPP I think) that supported the inclusion of sister project results on the search page. Are you saying you want to make it so they don't appear for you personally? — This, that and the other (talk) 07:02, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * YES. Don't want it, don't like it, glad to have the code-fix posted below, think this should be an opt-in/opt-out checkmark-box under preferences. Shearonink (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's what Shearonink is trying to say. Isn't that right? BTW, here's the RfC discussion. George Ho (talk) 07:22, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support Just as said, "I don't need it in my editing, these sister project results visually clutter up the page." I edit Wikipedia, or (rarely) Wikidata, not the sister projects. If I'm looking for information and want to include Wikiquote, Wiktionary, or other projects, I'll use a search engine. If I search Wikipedia, then I want Wikipedia results. For example, when I'm fixing typos, seeing that someone spelled "television" as "televison" at Wikivoyage is neither interesting nor helpful. It's visual noise, and I don't want it. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support I don't care about the other projects and this is just clutter.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 07:44, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * YES. SO much this ^^^ Shearonink (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * ✅, just add  to your own common.css. By the way, I notice some scarce interaction with sister projects: maybe wait and see for a few days, you could find out that the sister projects contain something of interest for yourself too! --Nemo 09:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The search results I have been getting are not relevant to my editing and, also, are useless to my editing at Wikipedia, which is what I am here to do . EDIT. End of story. Shearonink (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I know how you feel about the updated search results, Shearonink. They can look awkward to or frustrate a user. Therefore, I won't object to having the option to disable/opt-out if a user wants those results disabled. Also, I'll respect your wishes and allow you to make decisions, especially when the "disable" option happens. However, with those search results, more likely some editors would come to those pages and improve existing pages or create new ones. Also, sometimes it helps editors not to create any more dubious articles in Wikipedia or pages that would have meant for other sister projects. It even would prompt some or many editors to create less cross-wiki redirect pages than we have seen lately. Well, I created one page with a German-language title to redirect to a Wiktionary entry, but it got deleted (...because I was convinced into requesting deletion on it). Even when the results from those projects are disabled by user preference, any Wikipedia article may still likely be nominated for deletion, especially due to notability and/or content issues (like "Georgia for Georgians") or because it looks like either a definition page, a travel guide, a mere document, a page of a book, or a collection of quotes. Of course, I was discussing mainspace results. Unsure about what to do with results of other non-article namespaces from those projects. --George Ho (talk) 01:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Bam! Thanks - that works a treat.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 17:51, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks for posting the code-fix. I still think it would be great if this feature were available as a checkmark opt-in/opt-out on a registered editor's preferences. Shearonink (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. Thanks for the css fix; please make it a checkbox on the prefs page. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support - I can't think of any reason why we would not make this available as a configurable option in preferences. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:36, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support - It should be an option in preferences. — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 00:27, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support opt-out, oppose disabling. I see how others could find this unnecessary and obtrusive, but as someone who occasionally translates stuff from other Wikipedias I find this quite useful. <b style="color:#da0000;">Daß</b> &thinsp; <b style="color:#0044c3;">Wölf</b> 02:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone is suggesting disabling the feature (for everyone), but fwiw I would also oppose disabling. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 11:59, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nobody had specified it thus far, so I added that for clarity. <b style="color:#da0000;">Daß</b> &thinsp; <b style="color:#0044c3;">Wölf</b> 03:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh gawd yes...was just re-reading through this section - Thank you Wölf & Ivanvector. I didn't want this feature deleted, just wanted to be able to turn it off.  Thanks for clarifying my somewhat muddy syntax. Shearonink (talk) 15:27, 26 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment. It is easy to create a gadget. Ruslik_ Zero 17:53, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support opt out as a user preference. it shouldn't require figuring out more than that. So far, I too find it unhelpful, and I suspect so will many others as they come to notice it. I predict it will soon change to opt-in.  DGG ( talk ) 22:12, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose - we already have way too many preferences. The sister project results don't interfere with using the search interface as normal and it's easy for anyone that doesn't like them to hide them using their User CSS. Kaldari (talk) 04:18, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * User CSS is relatively inaccessible. Not everyone knows how to use it. Opt-out tick box is much more accessible. Options should be accessible to all, particularly opt-outs. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 14:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Pinging Kaldari for response. George Ho (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We know from Special:GadgetUsage that gadgets that do nothing but disable features are consistently among the least used gadgets. Adding lots of preferences just for the small number of people who don't like certain new features causes 2 problems: It makes the preferences interface overwhelming and less usable for everyone; It means that developers have to support more variations of the interface, slowing down future development. A good example of that is when we had 3 different versions of the WikiText editor depending on how many new features users wanted to opt-out of. This required building 3 different version of any features for the editor, such as RefToolbar. (We finally removed one of the opt-outs from the prefs last month, which hardly anyone had been using anyway.) Kaldari (talk) 17:49, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * What "future development" do you mean, Kaldari? Do you mean the Foundation's search engine? If that's not it, may you please elaborate further? Thanks. --George Ho (talk) 02:35, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I mean any future development related to the search page, including gadgets and WMF software. If they have to take into account multiple possible interfaces, it makes development more complicated and slower. Adding this one option may not seem like much, but every option must be multiplied by all the other options. So if I want to write a gadget that reformats the presentation of the search results, I need to accommodate all the possible skins, multiplied by whether or not they are using the new "advanced search" beta feature that is about to come out, multiplied by whether or not they are hiding the sister search results, etc. So this one extra option actually means that I have to accommodate 8 additional UI variations in my software (assuming we aren't even worrying about mobile). Kaldari (talk) 03:04, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well... Take your time, Kaldari. I believe you and other developers can find ways to make the future developments more simple and easier to use, no matter how long it takes. I'll explain more via email soon. --George Ho (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I notified communities of just selected sister projects about this proposal. --George Ho (talk) 19:17, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it possible for the interwiki searches to be selective? I, for one, greatly value WP, Commons, and Wikispecies in my play/work at Wiktionary, but would find other projects less useful. DCDuring (talk) 19:30, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That would take an RfC discussion and a Phabricator task to do so, DCDuring. Right now, due to the results, we don't see multimedia (audio/visual) results from Commons here. --George Ho (talk) 19:38, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As two of the three projects I am interested in are not-yet/may-never-be included, my enthusiasm is a bit further diminished for the taxonomy-type contributing that I do most often. For other editing, WikiSource is helpful. I expect that those who contribute to en.wikt in languages other than English would value including pedia and wikt projects in their languages of interest. DCDuring (talk) 19:51, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I made a note at some other venues, including Wikibooks, saying that Wikibooks was included as part of search results by developers. However, they didn't realize that there was "no consensus" to include those results. Therefore, I filed a task at Phabricator. I also noted the error at WP:VPT. --George Ho (talk) 00:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC); modified, 15:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I saw that another proposal to include Wikibooks as part of search system is made at WP:VPP. --George Ho (talk) 22:09, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support Another configurable button (Opt in or out -either works) in preferences won't hurt anything. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 22:09, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Lukewarm support for a selectable preference. Note that English Wikiquote has all of 30,000 pages, about .08% of English Wikipedia's total. I don't see those search results, at least, as being particularly disruptive to Wikipedia searches. bd2412  T 00:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no issue having it as an opt-out capability within preferences, or as a gadget. For the proponents, you completely have the capacity to hide it through your Special:MyPage/common.css and I invite you to use that methodology as that is its purpose; even to add instructions to users on this. I totally dispute the myopic view that it should be automatically done, and challenge those who propose such are very much in the "I don't like it" camp, and suggest that this is a key component of the WMF search team, and is purposefully added to improve the whole product that WMF produces. — billinghurst  sDrewth  05:14, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There is now a gadget available to do this. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In other words, TheDJ, there is the gadget saying, "Do not show search results for sister projects on the search results page", under the "Appearance" section of the "Gadgets" tab, right? Thanks. Pinging Shearonink, "This, that and the other", Lugnuts, Ivanvector, Godsy, DGG, Kaldari, GenQuest, BD2412, and billinghurst. Therefore, they can individually decide whether to click that via user preferences, and done. --George Ho (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * FYI: The new gadget button does not appear to function for me. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 18:39, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It does to me, GenQuest. I tested the option, and it still works. BTW, I wonder whether the "working" issue can continue at WP:VPT. --George Ho (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Moved >>>HERE<<<. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 19:18, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't work, GenQuest. I think you missed the " " after " " (typo). May you correct the link please? Thanks. --George Ho (talk) 21:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Preventing unreviewed articles from entering mainspace without approval/screening
Hi,

I've noticed that many articles are being inserted into mainspace without any review or quality control, and I find that this behaviour is rampant among specific groups.

I was hoping that admins would consider a mechanism in which new articles cannot be inserted into mainspace without approval, which I think would save a lot of headaches.

I do see that many users are able to use the sandbox and Draft: templates properly, but there are many more who ignore that process and simply insert it into mainspace.

If you think about it, the idea that someone can just insert a new page into mainspace without approval is sort of ridiculous and I feel is worthy of further discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.61.3.229 (talk) 07:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * You may wish to read Autoconfirmed_article_creation_trial and WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/RfC_2013 for background on a similar proposal and the technical and administrative challenges this proposal would face. You can keep up with progress made on page curation at Page_Curation/Suggested_improvements. Snuge purveyor (talk) 07:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

I've had enough. "Approved articles" clearly no better than ones that skip it
When will this stop?

It's clear that Wikipedia is now becoming a feeder system for second and third worlders, where the administrators of this site have now developed a system to absolve them of the trash that ends up on here.

I've seen how administrators paint the "page reviewer" approval as some stringent process, that ensures the user is active and able to contribute with responsibility.

Tell me the, oh mighty admins-who-bestow-page-reviewing-privileges, how is trash like the page linked in the section title, worthy of wikipedia?

no sources, nothing. Just a bunch of hooey that User:Boleyn approved. Is he out of his mind? Or am is my naive and simpleton view being averaged out by the reality of how wikipedia is used?

After seeing this egregious display of irresponsibility, it is hard for any user to have any confidence in the page reviewers because I suspect other pages (that likely lack notability/sources) have been approved in a similar manner.

Thank you User:Boleyn for showing us what wikipedia really is.

Damn shame none of these admins have nothing to do but defend, aid, and abet the developing nations whilst pooh-poohing concerns of the first world.

outrageous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.217.126.151 (talk • contribs)


 * "becoming a feeder system for second and third worlders"? really? I agree that the best thing for everyone would be for you to give up on this site and not come back. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:44, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Someone got out of the wrong side of the bed.


 * You start by painting with a broad brush an entire process while purportedly linking to one single example. You couldn't even accomplish that, as the link in the section heading doesn't go to an article. Presumably you meant: Edayilakkad.


 * You claim it has no sources, yet it does. If you would claim that some of the sources are blogs and therefore not acceptable as sources you point would have more validity for climbing it has no sources when it does means either that you don't know what you're talking about, or you are being sloppy.


 * You claim, I've seen how administrators paint the "page reviewer" approval as some stringent process,. I've never seen such a claim, can you link it?


 * You suggest that users are to make a blanket condemnation of all page review is because one page reviewer made one acceptance that you think is wanting. Seriously?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  19:52, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * is one of our best reviewers and one of our most active. I'd urge the user to sign in with their main account if they want to launch what is essentially a personal attack on them. I'd also recommend that more experienced editors request the user right and review even one or two pages a day. We need all the help we can get. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Wow, I feel sorry for you carrying all that negativity. The island meets WP:GEOLAND, as most islands do. I'm guessing this isn't the real issue as you are clearly somewhat familiar with Wikipedia but didn't add your actual username. Perhaps get another hobby, which will make you happier. Sorry we are disappointing you so badly. Boleyn (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * As a totally uninvolved editor, not a high-flying reviewer or admin, might I just say that "some bigot"'s comments are ridiculous. The article could do with a lot of improving (copy editing, English, citations) but is clearly about a notable island with a population similar to a small hamlet in the west.  See Coggeshall Hamlet for comparison, Edayilakkad is clearly a better stub.  Keep going Boleyn and just ignore the knockers. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:27, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * , I'm sorry, I added the unsigned template, and said it was a comment by "some bigot" as a kind of meta commentary.  I see now that I'm confusing people, so I fixed the template.  The IP obviously doesn't think he's a bigot, I'm sure he is utterly convinced that what he's saying isn't ridiculous. Anyway, he's not responsible for not using an actual username.  He is responsible for being a bigot. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Did you approve the island here or approve the article? Whatever quality standard we have, this article fails it. Maybe it passes WP:N - but that is far from implicit for every island (I'm just back from Finland - don't go down that "every island its own article" path). It certainly fails WP:RS and WP:V.
 * The OP is angry, and enough said about that. But we do have a real problem with geographical articles in India, where every minor school or web cafe seems to spawn an article on its locale, almost all terrible, unverifiable and far from notable. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:42, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * What sort of quality standard are we talking about? If this is "New page reviews" (not sure I have that exactly straight), then I found this description: New Page Review is essentially the first (and only) firewall against totally unwanted content and the place to broadly accept articles that may not be perfect but do not need to be deleted.
 * The article under discussion does appear to pass that very low bar. Oh, I'm not prejudging the outcome if it were brought to AfD on notability grounds, but I don't get the impression that that's the point. --Trovatore (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * WP has no quality standards. It has always been that way, and many consider that to be a bad thing. I certainly do.
 * What it does have, as a basic standard, is that all articles should be proof against CSD (not AfD - they're only required to be able to get past AfD after a week's work on them). This one isn't even that good.
 * More to the point here though, why was it marked as reviewed? It went from being a crap article, and quite obviously so, to being a crap article now marked as 'reviewed'. How does that help? It's not fit to pass any sort of review, quite possibly it can't ever (there's no sourcing to allow me to judge this). So why mark it as such?  If necessary, at least leave it unreviewed. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:34, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, it means that at least one person has looked at it and decided that it's not a candidate for speedy deletion. The advantage of that is that other reviewers can skip it, if all they're looking for is new articles that ought to be speedied, and assuming that they trust that the corpus of new-page reviewers is trustworthy, or at least trustworthy enough that they are more likely to find articles that ought to be speedied among unreviewed articles than among approved ones.  --Trovatore (talk) 23:53, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The disadvantage is that other reviewers will now skip it, thinking that it's adequate. This is anything but and I wouldn't oppose speedying it. I might even have speedied it myself. I might yet do so, and if it appears at AfD as it is at present, I'd seek to delete it. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:01, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It seems quite clear from this discussion that, if you add a speedy tag, someone will remove it. You may as well skip the intermediary step and nominate it at AfD now. --Trovatore (talk) 00:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I already have, Articles for deletion/Edayilakkad Andy Dingley (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments,, and. I've spent most of the day working really hard reviewing new pages, so it was quite dispiriting to see this thread, even if the IP's comments made little sense! We can't please everyone. Thanks again for making me feel OK about it, Boleyn (talk) 20:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps worth noting that the OP IP has now been blocked for 6 months and won't be contributing further to this thread. ― Mandruss  &#9742;  20:47, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Please note that, while it is unlikely that they will make any further posts to this thread, there is nothing stopping them from moving to a new IP and posting here or anywhere else on Wikipedia. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 20:58, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Once again, WP shoots the messenger. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:30, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Andy, is it your view that the article should not have been "approved"? My understanding of "approved" is not any great compliment; basically it just means "doesn't qualify for speedy deletion".  Do you disagree with that understanding, or do you think that it should have been speedied, and if so under what criterion? --Trovatore (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * You know, I just got done running the article through my usual copy edit process for newer articles. It was a disaster when I started, and I am afraid it is still in a horrible state.  This is a case where the article probably should have been been speedied, TNT'd, or at least moved back into Draftspace.  GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 00:26, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

The internet has a term for someone who lobs an inflammatory comment, then sits back to watch the fireworks rather than engaging in constructive discussion. Can anybody remember what it is? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "still not wrong". Andy Dingley (talk) 01:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Adding Redirect category shell to all single-redirect-template redirects
Per a recent bot RfA, and Template:Redirect category shell/doc, should Redirect category shell be added to all redirects which only contain a single redirect template? The template documentation explains how it is useful not only for single- redirects, but also for 0-  redirects. Pinging the template's creator,, for input. ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf) 16:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * To clarify, this is specifically addressing the question "Should a bot do this task?", which is slightly different than whether it should be done. The estimate provided at the BRFA was that this would take 400,000 edits. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 16:20, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 400,000 is a conservative estimate. I'll start another database scan with a much higher limit to get an accurate count.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My guess is now ~3 million... AWB's database scanner runs out of memory if I set the result-limit to several million (approaching 1 GB it starts to freeze, emit errors, and misbehave; my system memory still has many GB free at that time). With a limit of 2M, it considers itself ~16.9% done with ~337k matches, corresponding to the saturation limit of 2M (337k/0.169 = ~2M), so I need to raise the limit. With a limit of 5M, it's ~11.7% complete with ~344k matches, or ~3M estimated total.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  17:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the real question is "should this be done". If yes, then it makes no sense to do this manually rather than by bot. Since I'll evaluate the BRFA assuming there is consensus for this task, I'll recuse myself from giving me opinion here. One thing that should be done is to clearly explain exactly what the benefits of putting single templates within a shell, and what is proposed to be done with uncategorized redirects. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:37, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My point-of-reference is cosmetic-only edits. No-one thinks cleaning up whitespace is a negative, just that having a bot perform high volumes of such edits is a negative. This task has the same potential, in my opinion, although I'm pretty neutral on it for the moment. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 18:20, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I can give input on the basic question of whether or not to use the Rcat shell on singularly categorized redirects, but I don't know enough about the needs to speak to whether or not a bot should take up the task.
 * Rcat shell may be used to fulfill its primary impact, which is to "standardize redirect templates (rcats). Its basic purpose is to simplify the process of tagging and categorizing redirects.
 * The shell template is also used to hasten the learning curve for editors who get into categorizing redirects. No matter how many rcats are needed, from zero to an as yet unknown maximum (usually six to eight rcats), the "manifold sort" can be used to populate the category. That category is monitored, so editors can check back to see what rcats have been used, and they will know next time what to do with similar redirects.
 * The shell has the ability to sense protected redirects, so no matter how many rcats are needed, from zero to the maximum, protection levels are automatically sensed, described, categorized and changed when appropriate.
 * For these reasons, it is considered useful to enclose one or more rcats within the Rcat shell, and to use the shell without rcats when unsure of the categorization needs.  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there  16:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I would also like to note that if the bare Rcat shell is added without rcats by a bot to a lot of redirects, then the manifold sort category would become too unwieldy for just a few editors to efficiently administer. Please don't do that, because it would effectively defeat the purpose of the manifold sort.  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there  17:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Please note, some exact examples of what the change will do are linked from in Bots/Requests for approval/TomBot. — xaosflux  Talk 00:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Will the bot add the rcat shell even if there are no existing rcats on the page? If it does, that would totally overwhelm the manifold sort. TheMagikCow (T) (C) 10:55, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope; the title of this proposal and the BRfA explicitly & exclusively target single-redirect-template redirects.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  11:19, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose making millions of edits to pages hardly anyone ever sees, which don't change the functionality of the page one bit, but which may help other users to make somehow better redirect pages in some way, perhaps. Very unclear which actual issue this is trying to solve. Fram (talk) 12:40, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The main issue, I believe (but I could be wrong), is that this will automatically include protection levels, improve sorting, and make things more standard. Tom has been doing this mind-numbingly boring task semi-automatically for a while, and doing this by bot makes it much easier to ignore on watchlists, both for people who ignore all bots, or for those who'll ignore TomBot in particular (e.g. WP:HIDEBOTS). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:24, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wikipedia has both sharpened and dulled various parts of my brain. On balance I suspect it has at least retained its curvature, but I could also be wrong.  ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support but only just. Adding rcat shell to single-rcat redirects does make a slight cosmetic change; one of the examples given at BRFA is to . Before the edit, the redirect had the text "from a fictional character" floating on the page with no context. Adding rcat shell encloses that text in another text box which adds the contextual information "this page is a redirect:". It's unlikely readers will notice that change, and it's unlikely most editors would not be already aware that the page is a redirect, but this helps slightly. Also standardizing redirect categorization and adding the other technical functionality of the shell. I'm strongly against having a bot add the shell to non-categorized redirects, that's pointless busywork that just creates a huge maintenance chore. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:50, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Is slightly modifying the redirect templates (e.g. R from fictional character) then not the much simpler solution than going to 3 million redirects to add that shell? Just change what, perhaps 100 templates, to make them clearer, and be done with it. Fram (talk) 14:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Some of the benefits would likely carry over (like protection/categorization) easily. But the improved appearance and standardization might not, or might be hard to achieve. It's probably worth exploring the idea however. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:39, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * From a standardization perspective, to eliminate creep/inconsistencies and maintenance/updating, it is best to have 1 wrapper template than multiple s that "self-wrap". Furthermore, potentially-"naked"  s would have to detect whether they have or have not already been wrapped, to avoid unnecessary nesting. If that's easy/not prone to error, then that might be the best way forward. Is that the case, though?   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  14:48, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the individual redirect templates can be turned into redirects (hah!) to the shell then? Although I don't really see the need for standardization of the look of pages hardly anyone ever looks at anyway: it is important that these are categorized, but apart from that one could eliminate the text from all of these and nothing really would be lost. Fram (talk) 15:04, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, if all s call a module (I suspect it'd have to be a module rather than standard template code) that is able to perform the same duties as Redirect category shell and were able to sense whether or not the calling  is wrapped in Redirect category shell, that would be ideal. I certainly don't have the expertise to answer that question though, and someone should be summoned here that can.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)
 * Yeah, I'm not really convinced that the category shell is the best solution to whatever problem we're trying to solve, if the category templates themselves can just be modified to produce similar code. Like, the category shell has protection-level-sensing code, why can't all of the rcat templates have that, and do away with the shell? Since that seems so obvious to me but I'm not a coder, I've assumed that option has already been explored and ruled out, and having the template shell is the only (or most desireable) way to achieve the desired result. If that's not the case, then let's back up. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:09, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * After further thought, I must oppose (and recuse from handling any BAG aspect of the BRFA going forward). The examples given by Tom indicate that the only change being made here is a box that says "This is a redirect". rightly points out this adds context to the redirect page, which initially had me leaning toward support until I recalled that the only way you actually see a redirect page is by clicking the link at the top of the page you're redirected to that says "Redirected from X". That means by the time you've navigated to a redirect page, you would already know it's a redirect. Alternatively, you can navigate to redirect pages by clicking certain direct links that editors leave in discussions, but at that point you're almost definitely in project space and should know what a redirect looks like. Yes, the wrapper template handles protection, etc. That's a good rationale for adding an option to Twinkle to add the wrapper when protection is added to a redirect. Protecting a redirect is very rare (template-protection being the only semi-frequent case that comes to mind), so I don't see that as justifying three million edits. I do want to thank  for quickly bringing this to the village pump when requested, and I will be happy with the outcome of this discussion whatever it is. This is the correct and drama-free way to handle potentially controversial tasks. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 16:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose as pointless per above. (although I wouldn't object to a bot adding it on all protected redirects). In addition to what said about "Redirected from" links, all redirect pages have "Redirect page" at the top, just after "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", so the template doesn't actually serve the purpose of notifying people it is a redirect.  P p p e<big style="position:relative;top:10px">r y 11:50, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, if the edits are made very gradually. The wrapper template seems like a Good Thing on balance. Enterprisey (talk!) 19:32, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * How "gradual" - at 1epm this would take ~7months running non stop. — xaosflux  Talk 22:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We could cut that time in half by going at 2epm :) No deadline, and especially for this not-very-critical task. Enterprisey (talk!) 22:56, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose - adding 3 million entries to the revision table (by making 3 million edits) is not a trivial increase and should not be done without a compelling reason. Bloating the revision table makes almost every process on Wikipedia a tiny bit slower. Of course 3 million isn't a huge number in the grand scheme of things, but it adds up. Kaldari (talk) 22:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. Ultimately, all redirects should contain at least one redirect category, to indicate why such a redirect should exist. bd2412  T 23:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, essentially per BU Rob13. This strikes me as allocating a disproportionate amount of resources for marginal benefit. If we ever need to make 3 million edits to fix a problem, the problem should be well worth fixing, and this doesn't strike me as such a high priority issue. Mz7 (talk) 23:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose - It is the choice of those categorizing a redirect whether or not to use Redirect category shell. For example, see MediaWiki talk:Move-redirect-text, where no consensus was gained to add the categorization template to MediaWiki:Move-redirect-text. If consensus is gained to add this to every redirect, I wouldn't oppose a bot doing it. — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 23:46, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * WT:WikiProject Redirect has been notified of this discussion — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 00:01, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

to reply to me 16:34, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose This would functionally disable WP:MOR for those editors who can't delete pages. Breaking an often-used function for minimal gain is not a good bot task. -- AntiCompositeNumber (Ring me) 03:21, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per AntiCompositeNumber and, to a lesser degree, Godsy. -- Tavix ( talk ) 22:59, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. Heck, I'm not even convinced that the shell should be added when there's just two cats. But adding it with just one is absolutely be overkill. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:37, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, except for all protected redirects. Limit the scope to just those edits that produce some more tangible benefit. wbm1058 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now, except for protected redirects. Redirect pages aren't usually read by much anyone, so doing this for hundreds of thousands of rarely-used redirects serves little purpose. Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * Oppose per ACN. Would support for redirects with two or more rcats, if that is not already done. f  e  minist  15:43, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose for single-rcat redirects with no history, as it would interfere unnecessarily with page moves. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:27, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

WikiSandy (Contextually Enhanced Search)
WikiSandy’s mission is to enhance the ease of knowledge discovery from Wikipedia and where possible make more user efficient. WikiSandy’s “tMt” (take me there) links allow jumping directly to sentences of interest no matter where in an article the sentence may be. We have received some very positive feedback, see Village pump (idea lab). Any help navigating the Village pump (proposal) process would be greatly appreciated. We propose to provide a Wikipedia search service that indexes Wikipedia data semantically, based on sentence structure; subject, subject complement, or direct object, etc. versus just key words, titles etc. Recognize information that is not directly communicated by the author, by relating acronyms, abbreviations, and compound nouns to appropriate subject matter within an article. Results will be ordered and prioritized by the strength of the correlation of search term to the sentences returned. Results will provide full sentences where feasible, with deep links to those sentences, making it possible for users to jump directly to those sentences of interest. Such a tool will improve the search experience within Wikipedia and increase the value of the Wikipedia data. What’s unique about WikiSandy?

Please feel free to test drive @ http://www.wikisandy.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandypondfarm (talk • contribs) 12:52, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * WikiSandy is an en.wikipedia.org specific experimental search engine that indexes Wikipedia data semantically, based on sentence structure; subject, subject complement, or direct object, etc. versus just key words.
 * It typically returns full sentences for the user to review.
 * Take Me there (tMt) links to sentences in the actual source articles which allows the user to jump directly to that sentence no matter where it is in the article!
 * WikiSandy answers follow-up questions maintaining context. This means you can search for Abraham Lincoln, get results, and then ask, “What did he do?”, and get relevant results.
 * Click “aLike” to view other documents with the same sentence which has been discovered by WikiSandy. This shows you other articles on the same topic.
 * Tell Me Something will bring you to random query results.
 * Example Questions will give you some demo queries.
 * View the User Guide for more details.

If part of this device is to find information using sentence structure as a guide, would this really be searching semantically?Vorbee (talk) 13:35, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Magic links reminder bot
Magic links are being disabled at some point, but users might not know that they exist or that they're being turned off. Once they're disabled, should a bot remind users who have added text which would currently result in the creation of a magic link that the ISBN, PMID and IETF RFC templates are required to create them? This would be similar to the current bot task which reminds people to sign with four tildes. The bot could also tell users that the templates shouldn't be used within certain citation templates and possibly other things. Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125; to reply to me 08:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 12:43, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In general - no I don't think so - knowing about a wiki template isn't as core as signing posts - perhaps only to "experienced" editors? — xaosflux  Talk 11:22, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * How an "experienced" editor is defined is problematic. Users who are autoconfirmed might not know how to use templates, but users who are not yet extended confirmed might be adding unformatted ISBNs, which we might not want. I think if editors are adding them unformatted (or maybe adding plain links to the IETF and PubMed websites) they should be notified anyway, although not too frequently (maybe at most once every few months). Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * How much do we want to have ISBN links linked ? If they should always be linked, no matter what, then a bot can do it, and we don't have to bother people. If linking is 'subjective', then how would you write a bot that is accurate enough to not bother users unnecessarily ? —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * We have a bot to sign unsigned posts, and yet we alert editors anyway. We ultimately don't want to have a bot following experienced editors around doing things that folks could be doing themselves. There will be bots to template these things (Magic links bot, PrimeBOT, possibly Yobot), but I think giving editors a heads up is helpful. One heads up per account, of course, so there would need to be a database tracking who had been notified previously. ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 14:33, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * For the record, SineBot does warn editors who make unsigned posts and does not respect the "nobots" template while doing so: That's specifically to prevent people from abusing the robot. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:06, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * "Signing posts" is discussion behavior we expect out of all people using discussions - I don't think "using this template" warrants ending talk page notices. — xaosflux  Talk 17:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm an experienced editor, and have used "ISBN", but don't necessarily recall where, and wasn't aware of this change. So how much bot-prodding would I like? Well, how about just putting a notice on the Talk page of articles using magical links? If am still interested in such an article it is presumably on my watch-list, and I'll see it. If I'm not interested, then the Talk page would be the place to notify those who are interested. Right? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Can we please make the Domain rank mandatory on all Infoboxes concerning biological taxa?
I know, I know. The original Linnaean system had Kingdom as the highest rank, with no Domains. However, that system was superseded a long time ago. Domain has been accepted as the highest rank (Kingdom being merely the second-highest rank) for quite some time now. It is also a major rank; Domain is not a minor rank like Cohort, Tribe, or Alliance.

Even though I've been arguing this for years (which I freely admit, and a look at my Contribution History here on Wikipedia would certainly show), I have yet to see anything recent that says Domain has been dropped to restore Kingdom as the highest rank. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * While it's probably fairly easy to fix this for automatic taxoboxes ( would know this better than me), it would probably not be doable to do it for all manual taxoboxes - which are currently 287970 out of 351899 taxoboxes - over 80% of them. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 18:03, 12 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I would support this for family (although I am not opposed to putting the bar at genus), but not species, as that would introduce too many levels on the taxobox. Genus is not preferred for the same reason, as you might want to add some interesting taxonomic information there. RileyBugz <sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話 <sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録  22:12, 12 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The whole issue of "higher ranks" is very tricky. By convention and consensus, taxoboxes in many areas use "traditional kingdoms" – for example, all plant taxoboxes go up to "Kingdom: Plantae", but if you click on the link, you get to an article that rightly says that there are currently competing definitions of what "Plantae" means. Some organisms can't be placed in a "kingdom" because there's no consensus on what the kingdoms should be as Kingdom (biology) explains; choanoflagellates are just one example. Other organisms are placed in highly non-traditional "kingdoms" – see Thermoplasma. The three domain system is widely used, but not universally agreed. What does it really tell a reader if above "Plantae" in a plant taxobox or above "Animalia" in an animal taxobox we put "Eukaryota"? I think it will be a long time, if ever, before there's a consensus on ranks at this level. Indeed, if there is a consensus, in my view it's likely to be not to use ranks at all at higher levels, just clades. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposals to reduce several annoyances for us mobile users.
Technical limitations for mobile users causes “rollbackers” to see my intermediate edits as “vandalising” articles I would like to request the creation of the tag “intermediate edit” and here’s why…

I would like to request a new tag for us mobile users who can’t edit entire pages. Well let me explain my situation first, I installed an update from Microsoft on my laptop which broke it and now I can only edit on my mobile device, as I work 🏢 long hours I tend to only make edits on Wikipedia during my off breaks when I can leave the building (and I cannot edit using company computers as they contain highly sensitive information), to this end I edit using Microsoft Edge on a mobile device which is less than optimal, but it suffices most of the time. However this doesn't change that for the last few years editing Wikipedia has proven to be impossible and the arrogant WP:BADFAITH attitudes have now filled the bucket, as much as I like Wikipedia I’m not a fan of most of the community who rarely even understand the concepts of WP:GOODFAITH, and WP:CIVIL, for example as a mobile user I sometimes need to move content from one area of an article into another, or It’s not uncommon to tweak the settings of a template which most unfortunately often leads to users seeing the first of multiple edits and assuming it’s vandalism. Want to move content from one part of the article into another on mobile? Well you can’t edit the full article using a mobile browser because you can either only change one paragraph at a time or change the WP:LEAD, alright... So I remove text I want from something at the bottom into the centre of the article because It's more relevant there, I first remove it, then save 💾, then rearrange, added a more reliable WP:SOURCE and then click on save 💾 ... “Error, another user has edited the page” and as I’m on mobile I can’t force edit, wow someone reverted me and gave absolutely no reason this person is a “Rollbacker” so I go to their talk page, they blank it, I do the same edit,, they threaten to block 🚷 me, I go to that article’s talk page and explain that it was “1 of 2 edits” and they just said “there is no such thing as an intermediate edit” and even though I had explained in a message that I would be done within 2 minutes attached to that edit they kept reverting me. 😒 So I had to copy THE ENTIRE ARTICLE to Microsoft Outlook, edit it there, select THE ENTIRE ARTICLE, save 💾 it, then suddenly it got reverted again, and then that person reverted their own reversion, why? WP:BADFAITH but this is unfortunately just the symptom of the problem and not the problem itself, should that editor have a better attitude and change their thinking? Absolutely, but if I were on my desktop it wouldn't have happened.

This is even worse on Microsoft-related articles where there’s a select “WP:OWN clique” (well, plenty of users have accused that clique of “owning” Microsoft articles but that’s not something to discuss here) of editors who admit to talking to each other in real life to work together on making sure that their edits never break the “3 revert rule” and ironically editing pages about Microsoft Edge while on Microsoft Edge has become impossible, no matter how often I explain that It’s an intermediate edit they still revert it, then I have to do the annoying thing I explained above and then they suddenly don't revert, so obviously my planned edits to the article aren't the issue, then why has editing Wikipedia become almost impossible for me?

I wouldn't have been angry 😠 at those people if they would simply apologise but they never do, neither do they ever learn from their mistakes.

My solutions: Either allow for mobile users (such as myself) to edit full articles at a time without opening “Wikipedia: Desktop” which gets forced reloaded by Microsoft Edge literally every time I scroll too much, or allow for a tag that states “intermediate edit ” where if another user (one of these annoying “rollbackers” who never add content but love 💘 to revert all day long, excuse this remark but after attempting to improve an article which should only last 4 minutes take several hours I get mad 😡 ) may get asked “this is tagged as an intermediate edit, have 10 minutes passed?” or even allow for the second edit to “force edit” allowing to override the reversion. So far Wikipedia Mobile seems very unfriendly to editors, there isn't even a link to the Talk Page on mobile, I have to “switch to desktop” and then add a new discussion there. Wikipedia needs a lot more tools for mobile users.

I would suggest changing the policy to allow for “Intermedia Edits” but these users often ignore policy, and rarely even want to discuss, the motto for these people is “revert first, ask questions never” as is evident by them rather blanking my questions than even giving me 2 minutes to finish my edit(s).

Are any of these changes technically possible? Or are us mobile users doomed to be “second-class citizens” of Wikipedia forever?

Another annoyance is black-listed sources, if I (by accident) want to add a reference that links to a black-listed website I don't get to read "black-listed" as on a desktop site, I get "Error, couldn't save edit" and not all black-listed sites are black-listed because they're unreliable, sometimes just bots or people with an agenda attempted to use them too much, but on mobile I simply have no idea what an "Error" is until I attempt the same edit again on "desktop".

In fact if I have to write text that contains more than 500 characters I have to save it as a draft first in Outlook Mail before I can publish it, evident by my handle below. ⬇

Sent from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱. --113.23.54.237 (talk) 03:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Please provide edit "differences" to support the above statements. GenQuest  "Talk to Me" 15:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

If you can write editsums, are you using them to clearly explain your intent? If so, adding a new "intermediate edit" tag will make no difference except for contributing to software bloat. Part of the problem is that almost all vandalism comes from IPs (and many vandal/trolls talk a good game), so the best way to avoid being mistaken for a vandal/troll is to register an account and establish a history of good-faith editing under it. See Why create an account? for other registration benefits, and note that IP editing is actually less anonymous than registered editing. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  17:22, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have the ability to write edit summaries on that platform? If not, I submit that your platform is not well suited to your type of editing. Take a break from that kind of editing until you can get back to a desktop.


 * Also, of course you're getting bad responses from "rollbackers" on their talk pages when your attempts to explain what you were doing consist of saying "Don't tag me as a vandal, you fuck". -- Pres N  17:28, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * As well as "‎you're a either blind or don't know how editing works". Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Increasing notability requirements in light of plethora of articles created by Third/Second-worlders about local/regional "celebrities"
Hi,

I wanted to share a proposal that involves curtailing the simple notability checks with respect to "celebrities" in the developing nations.

Specifically, I find that the number of biographical pages made for "celebrities" from the developing nations, is extremely large.
 * For example, while I haven't counted, it would not surprise me if the number of pages created for Indian actors outnumbers the number of actors who have pages in Hollywood.

I understand that notability criteria must be objective and established so that all administrators/page-approvers can reasonably assess the importance, and make a decision.

However, with the incredibly large population of the aforementioned demographic (3 billion total), it is hard to see why they are deserving of pages on the en.wikipedia.org page, especially when many of the readers/users of en.wikipedia.org do not care about Bollywood.

Is there any way the criteria for notability for these "celebrities" can be applied to the in.wikipedia.org instead of en.wikipedia.org? I am growing tired of seeing these people curate pages for their heroes, where these heroes often have less notability/ability/skills than a first-worlder that is half their age.

Some standardisation and consideration needs to be given to my proposal, as the large population and Bollywood-fanfare has created a recipe of absolute disaster. There are indian politicians from local levels who have pages whereas the same criteria results in a first worlder's page getting rejected.

To be fair, I have also noticed that many of the pages that I feel are undeserving of an entry on en.wikipedia.org (but maybe not in.wikipedia.org), often involve sock puppetry and users using multiple accounts (over time) to first create, then slowly build the page without catching anyone's attention.

Please, let us have this discussion. PLEASE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.117.121.10 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Lets get a few things out of the way:
 * There are less than 2000 articles in the subcategories of Category:Actors in Hindi cinema‎. This actually seems like too few.
 * It absolutely does not matter how many readers/users of the English Wikipedia care about Bollywood. Only notability matters.
 * Notability guidelines already exist for entertainers (see Notability_(people)).
 * I believe you misunderstand how "page approval" works - outside of Pending changes, there is no page approval. All Wikipedians approve (by doing nothing) or disapprove (by fixing or nominating for deletion) articles they read, regardless of being an Administrator or not. In fact, you too can be a part of this process - if you see an article that you believe doesn't follow the notability guidelines you are free to propose it's deletion.
 * in.wikipedia.org does not exist because there is no single "Indian" language, which you have definitely implied. How embarrassing.
 * So are you just proposing specific guidelines for developing-nation actors? That seems awfully specific. Brightgalrs  (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 20:34, 27 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I oppose limitations aimed at reducing the number of "third world" entertainers. Many entertainers from "first world" countries are only notable locally, but they get more press coverage because they come from places with more robust press outlets. The gravamen of this proposal seems to be to give equally situated entertainers short shrift because of the particular location from which their popularity arises. bd2412  T 20:49, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your response.

First of all, no it's not just India, but rather all developing nations. For example, it seems as of late there is a booming interest in the Phillipines for industries similar to India's Bollywood.

Secondly, I am not sure if using the category tool is appropriate here, as it would not surprise me if there are many more actors whose pages have not been put under the category.
 * I am not sure those who create the pages care (or, at the risk of being 'impolite': know) enough about categories as much as they do the page itself that can be found via searching the name on google or wikipedia.

Thirdly, when it comes to notability guidelines, how are those guidelines applied to developing nations? India is a great example of the issues I'm talking about, as they have for many years been masters of the media. Two examples:
 * A great example of this media mastery can be illustrated by their farcical claim about a fighter jet, which embarrasingly had the Pakistani flag.
 * Another example is the purported photoshopping of Modi's visits to the 2015 Chennai floods, which again were taken down shortly after the gaffe was discovered.

So you can see that exaggeration in Indian Media, whether it is on behalf of the Government or Actors/Politicians, is quite common.
 * While I may be at risk of "picking on India", surely these examples are not exclusive to them.

Aye, one could probably easily pick out similar instances and abuse of media by Najib Razak in Malaysia, or whoever-the-leader-is of the Phillipines.

What I wanted to communicate, and what I hope the two instances above demonstrate, is that the notability criteria for developing nations must be elevated.

That is, I feel the notability criteria should involve first-world outlets recognising the developing-nation celebrity-hopeful, and even in those cases I think caution must be urged and multiple outlets should be reporting it.

Regarding the lack of an in.wikipedia.org, maybe that is something that needs to be discussed?? Surely a subdomain wouldn't kill User:Jimmy Wales?
 * I am not sure how you feel that my point on that matter should make me feel embarrassed, as I was simply alluding to the inapporpriateness of foreign content on what-is-supposed-to-be the First World wikipedia.
 * For example, many of these actors' "art" is in a language that is not english (i.e. not the 'en' in en.wikipedia.org), so for them to have a page on the english wikipedia (for english speakers), when the audience cannot understand the foreign dialect, is not reasonable.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.117.121.10 (talk) 20:55, 27 June 2017‎ (UTC)

Additionally, I noticed that User:bd2412 quickly jumped in before I could post my response. You claim first worlders are only notable locally, yet that's exactly what I stated is the case for India and other developing nations but on a larger scale.
 * In the developing nations, their typically-larger population densities actually exacerbate the effect you're suggesting (that I originally suggested).

I am not defending "first world" celebrities at all. Indeed I've found some myself on wikipedia who only have entries due to their paid media articles, which are then used as WP:RS to justify curation. I am against that, as well.


 * There is a fine line that needs to be walked when it comes to biographical page curation, and I think it needs to be more thoroughly discussed in light of no indian wikipedia (though one should think they should have their own, and in their own language, which I feel would help them much more than the english wikipedia)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.117.121.10 (talk) 20:59, 27 June 2017‎ (UTC)
 * "no indian wikipedia (though one should think they should have their own, and in their own language, which I feel would help them much more than the english wikipedia)" Yeah um. There is no single Indian language. There are dozens. And good news: Every one of them has a Wikipedia! --Golbez (talk) 21:04, 27 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support. Will help get rid of cruft. KMF (talk) 01:10, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose in strongest possible terms—I thought this proposal was on its way to be rapidly archived for lack of interest, but since there's now support… We have a general notability guideline treats all countries and first, second, and third worlds alike. This proposal stems from explicit geographic bias: "foreign content on what-is-supposed-to-be the First World wikipedia." It stems from questioning why there are so many notable celebrities in Bollywood, the film production center for a country with over one billion people. While the proposer may be annoyed that all these clearly-less-important humasn and their numerous reliable publications are treated the same as United States or "First World" people, our guidelines treat them equally. That's not going to change.--Carwil (talk) 14:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Since they (unfortunately) don't get much/any press coverage, third-world (and, TBH, non-European/North American) people already have less of an argument for inclusion under GNG. This guideline is just trying to promote that bias, and I don't think it would do any favours to us. RileyBugz <sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話 <sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録  14:52, 9 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I Oppose, notability can come from a variety of sources in any language, the beauty of English Wikipedia is that we allow articles on non-Anglophoneㄟ sources. --1.55.183.244 (talk) 07:50, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, this argument can be summed up as WP:IDONTLIKEIT more than breaching WP:NOTABILITY. --1.55.183.244 (talk) 07:52, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose—notability can be established based on non-English sources. I'm currently working on cleaning up an article which was brought over to the English wikipedia from the German one; needs lots of cleanup, but the notability of the article is well established based on German sources (I am only fluent in English).  So, I think a pre-requisite needs to be that an article is FIRST created in local language and then brought over to en.wikipedia; then notability criteria can be applied to the sources brought over ... and it is true the notability criteria is different across the whole set of wikipedias. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 03:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Allow us mobile users to actually edit.
Currently on Microsoft Edge for my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL I can't edit whole articles, nor can I see talk pages or edit them properly without having to go to "desktop", this site is only optimised for mobile reading, not mobile editing. 😖 --1.55.183.244 (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * But you already admit you can edit by going to "desktop".... My question is "why doesn't the mobile view just show the desktop anyways?"--Khajidha (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Move to draft as a better alternative to deletion
I would like to propose that we change the way we go about deleting articles. Our current setup is largely binary - keep or delete, with other options such as merging, redirecting, userfying, or moving to draft space being relatively little used. I believe that the process would be much less contentious if the default decision was between keeping or moving to draft, with outright deletion reserved for hoaxes, defamatory material, and the like. Pages moved to draft pursuant to such a process would be move-protected, so that they could not be moved back to mainspace without admin review. Otherwise, the usual rules for drafts would apply: interested editors would be able to continue making improvements to the article until they felt that it deserved review for restoration to mainspace, at which point it would be up to other editors to evaluate the draft and determine whether it was up to snuff. Drafts that went unedited for six months would be deemed abandoned and deleted.

The advantages of this approach, I believe, are that it would make deletion discussions less strident and less prone to gaming and sockpuppetry (why go to all that effort, after all, if the result of losing the discussion is that the article gets moved to draft for potential further improvement); and, perhaps paradoxically, the elimination of more dross and cruft, because advocates will argue against deleting it, but more often than not will never bother to make improvements once it has been moved to draft space. bd2412 T 21:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The disadvantages I see is that this dramatically increases the amount of noise in the draft namespace. And the amount of material that needs to be policed for serious rules violations - a common and seldom addressed issue with all policy proposals that seek to diminish the number of deletions in one way or another. I also don't think that people with high stakes in an article (-->those most likely to engage in disruptive behaviour) will accept anything less than mainspace. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:38, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This is already the practice at NPP for articles that have the possibility of being included in the encyclopedia but that are not currently ready for the article mainspace. There is currently discussion ongoing at WT:NPP as to the best practices for draftifying. I wouldn't support it being the default option at AfD, but for non-harmful new articles, I'm fine with it. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I like the direction of the discussion - my proposal is basically to apply that kind of thinking to all pages nominated for deletion, not just new pages. In many cases, an old page nominated for deletion is just one that was missed when it was new. Of course, the bulk of deletion nominations are fairly new pages, so this would amount to a relatively small extension, if the NPP proposal continues getting fleshed out in that direction. bd2412  T 22:52, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I support more use of userfy or move to draft if there's any potential. -- S Philbrick (Talk)  01:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jo-Jo Eumerus it would be a huge pile of stuff that ends up in search results locally and Google, in effect articles never get deleted. There are many automated processes that will then churn through and maintain it, and manual processes will get overloaded and backlogged. Rather than making it a default, users can recommend move to Draft based on the details of the case. That happens sometimes, there should be justification for it. -- Green  C  13:57, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Can we find a way to ignore the automated processes and dispose of those not manually edited in the requisite time? bd2412  T 21:39, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Would make AfD pretty much useless and add to the MfD backlog. KMF (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * How would this add to the MfD backlog? Abandoned drafts don't go through MfD. bd2412  T 01:38, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * MfD really doesn't need any more draft load - I'd rather see all the Draft namespace go away from MfD entirely - send it to AfD to make DfD - it differs from everything else at MFD as it is "encyclopedic content" related). — xaosflux  Talk 04:22, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Suppose we implemented a rule that rather than going to MfD, abandoned drafts would be deleted automatically after a certain period of time? bd2412  T 04:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This idea may have some merit, although it might still be best if it went into an administrator to-delete queue rather than suddenly disappearing (somewhat like a CSD queue, so experienced eyes can at least delete/decline/move)... We may perhaps even already have a hidden category showing inactive drafts since a certain period though?  I've not checked.  — Paleo  Neonate  - 05:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

As I said above, I would oppose this being the default at AfD. Most of the stuff that goes there from NPP (which is most of the stuff that goes there in general) should be deleted, and I think it would open the door to gaming the system in terms of G4 and reviewers being able to look at the logs to see what was previously thought of as content that was unacceptable. I support drafticiation of articles that are clearly unready for the article main space but appear likely to meet the GNG or one of the SNGs. The thing is to educate more people who are a part of the NPP project about draftification and when it is an acceptable alternative to the deletion process. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * About half of what is deleted is material is is totally unsuitable--the other half is indeed material that has possibilities. Manu of that second group are sent to draft or user space on request. As for the first group, the articles deleted as essentially spam or personal puffery do not belong anywhere on the WP; we already recognize this, and there is increasing use of MfD to remove them. Keeping bad material in draft will only encourage the irresponsible editors, or those defying the terms of use.  DGG ( talk ) 23:15, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Add archives to ALL URLs, dead or alive
So as many people are aware, InternetArchiveBot has been a major help to combating link rot in that it continuously and actively attempts to add archives to any URL that it sees as dead, or is tagged as dead. This really makes sure all of our sources continue to remain accessible and helps with verifiability. However there are those moments, when archives were not created in time and as such are unavailable when the original URL goes down. Having the bot add archives not only allows us users to make sure that it has an archive in case of possible link rot, but for those URLs missing an archive, allows us to take the opportunity to archive them elsewhere before possible link rot and add them, thus also letting IABot know that an archive exists, or vice versa.

So how would this work? Quite simple. Most sources use the CS1 and/or CS2 citation templates, which has the "deadurl" parameter. When set to "no", archive URLs are not made clickable on the rendered page, but when set to "yes" or when the parameter is omitted entirely, it will make the title link to the archive version instead. This allows users that detect dead urls to only have to flip the switch to enable the archived version. The bot will set deadurl=no to all cite templates it adds archives to that are still working, and of course it will set deadurl=yes to the dead ones as it does now. The side effect of this is, the non-cite template references that use external links will have attached to them if it can't convert the link to a cite template.

Thoughts?— CYBERPOWER  ( Chat ) 18:22, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * About cs1|2 and no: not quite true what you said. The archive is clickable, but you don't get to it through the source's title.  To get to the archived source, click the word 'Archived':
 * There are cases that are unclickable but for that to happen, the value assigned to dead-url must be one of,  , or the bot-only value.
 * The default state of dead-url (when omitted or not assigned a value) is  so adding yes may not be required.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The default state of dead-url (when omitted or not assigned a value) is  so adding yes may not be required.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The default state of dead-url (when omitted or not assigned a value) is  so adding yes may not be required.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:41, 3 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose – Systematic archiving would create needless bloat in articles, and would drown editors and readers alike. Sources that actually need archiving would also become harder to identify at a glance. See the disastrous effect when a well-meaning editor applied IABot-assisted archiving of hundreds of sources at Barack Obama and Donald Trump. — JFG talk 12:32, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Support: Systematic archiving of all cited webs is good and very desirable. Linkrot will eventually happen to most urls, and there is no advantage to postponing web-archiving and citing the copied url. Among other supporting arguments, I point to three:
 * Wikipedia rules plainly state that: Editors are encouraged to add an archive link as a part of each citation (Link rot)
 * Citing sources and, and making those citations as complete as possible is central to Verifiability and having high quality and durable articles in wikipedia.
 * Bloating is not an issue with referencing as Wikipedia rules on optimal article sizes, say that "These rules of thumb [on article size limit] apply only to readable prose (found by counting the words (...)) and not to wiki markup size.".
 * Furthermore, expanding existing citations in any given article to include webarchive in them has a zero effect on the actual content and readability of the article. (talk) user:Al83tito 17:25 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no "rule" it's an wp:essay. It creates a tremendous problem with maintenance to deal with that many archive links as archive links also suffer from link rot and are considerably more resource intensive to fix from normal URLs. It also locks in an archive URL that might be working today but could stop working tomorrow. The archive is best retrieved when needed to avoid link rot. IABot is already able to fix links when they die so there is no great gain by doing it proactive but there are downsides. -- Green  C  20:04, 10 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Support, bloated or not Wikipedia should be durable and it's bad enough that plenty of articles can't be verified because of link rot today, tomorrow it'll be (even) worse. --125.212.228.11 (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose I am dissatisfied with the communication policy around InternetArchiveBot. Comments on the bot go to phabricator instead of typical on-wiki discussion. This is an amazing, constructive highly valuable Wikipedia and Internet Archive project which I like a lot. At the same time I feel that the project has some management problems which need to be addressed because it discourages the Wikipedia standard of discourse (including having a talk page). I would like to see this project (1) establish a talk page (2) host some public conversations (3) get a demonstration of support. This is a project which many people like, including me, but I do object to the precedent it is establishing of operating without discussion. I only intend to ask for 2-3 hours of labor in community engagement. I do not wish to distract the project organizers with unnecessary community discussion. I do not anticipate that much community discussion is necessary.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  18:43, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm entirely fine with IABot creating such links pre-emptively and automatically, but pre-emptively and automatically adding them to duplicate stable links that aren't in danger of become rotted and spamming them on our articles is detrimental. I'm fine leaving this to the discretion of whoever activates the bot, but like all semi-automated things, the editor becomes responsible for the bot's edits, and there needs to be way to rescind access if the bot is abused. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:55, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit filter to prevent Signature faking
I recently thought that it could be possible to fake signatures by copying the wikimarkup for an above signature and pasting it on to the end of their own text. Should there be an edit filter to protect from this? &#91;Username Needed&#93; 12:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * People often modify their signature in all sorts of ways, writing a filter to guard against that, won't be easy. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe an edit-filter that guards against signatures which do not contain the editing user either as a link or as text? Regards  So Why  15:48, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Also common is to move threads around to a more appropriate location, in which case the editor copy/pastes multiple third-party messages and signatures together, either in the same page or to another page... — Paleo  Neonate  - 15:56, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This isn't feasible without a high fail rate. I'm not an expert on abuse filters, but being a bot op, I can say this will be almost impossible to pull off.  I would recommend a filter that trips if the user doesn't have a link to their user or user talk page in any edits on noticeboards, and talk pages.  It's not a disallow, but asks the user to confirm the edit before continuing, asking them to sign with their username.  The edit gets a tag if the confirmed edit is still missing a link.  Then humans can patrol it.— CYBERPOWER  ( Chat ) 16:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I can't think of any way to do this that wouldn't result in a useless number of false positives. Sam Walton (talk) 18:03, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * it could be possible to fake signatures - We don't expend resources on prevention of "possible" problems. Can you show evidence of a significant signature forging problem? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  16:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The few instances that I remember seeing were usually mistakes (like one instance of an admin putting my signature on a message I didn't write after some revdel by another admin). Where this is not the case like in an AfD or other debate, it is usually discovered by other participants, because their watchlist and the history does not match what they see.  What would be less likely to be detected promptly would be edits to old threads in unwatched archives or inactive discussions, however...  — Paleo  Neonate  - 16:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's not what I would call a significant problem. The first case is extremely infrequent, is easily discovered and corrected with minor disruption, and provides useful information about the editor who committed the forgery. The second case is still hypothetical (again, real problems only, please) and would be largely inconsequential if it occurred. Perhaps you agree, I'm not sure. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  16:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. — Paleo  Neonate  - 23:03, 21 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This reminds me of another issue, despite WP:SIGPROB, possibly because it is only guideline, a number of editors have a signature showing another name. displaytitle detects when the displayed name does not match the signature and it would be easy to ensure that signatures match editor names as well.  On the other hand, because of the existing practice, if this was suddenly enforced a number of users using strange names may need to rename their account...  — Paleo  Neonate  - 16:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * We do have an ongoing issue with people leaving unsigned comments and others creating signatures for them, I'm not convinced we have an issue of people faking each others signatures - even the proposer seems to imply it as a possible problem rather than a real one. If it actually is happening we can block people for disruptive editing - no new policy is required. Before considering an edit filter we need to establish that this is common enough to merit an edit filter - I'm not yet seeing a single dif demonstrating that this actually happens, let alone the multiple recent diffs needed to show it merits an edit filter. Remember each edit filter slows everything down a teensy bit, so they are only appropriate for problems that are known to be sizeable.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  14:08, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see this as an existing problem that needs a solution. Killiondude (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Forging of signatures does happen occasionally (example) and it's sometimes difficult to detect, for instance if it occurs in the middle of a succession of edits. – Uanfala 17:41, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Dispute resolution RfC
Hello. You are invited to comment on this RfC, which seeks to reform certain aspects of Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes. Biblio (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Perennial proposals and the Village Pump
If something's been rejected often enough to become a perennial proposal, I gather it can still be acceptable to open a new proposal on it, but that the interested party should first raise it here at the Village Pump (to see if taking a new swing at it is actually merited). Do I understand that correctly? If so, what's the appropriate response if users (either deliberately or unwittingly) disregard PERENNIAL and open new proposals on a perennial topic anyway? ╠╣uw [ talk ] 18:47, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Anyone can choose to discuss a perennial proposal in any venue, but unless they've examined past history and are able to address the previously raised issues, then the conversation is likely to end quickly. I would ask the editor in question if the proposal has taken into account previous feedback. isaacl (talk) 03:23, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * When it's clear that the editor has not (but the proposal remains open), what then is the appropriate action? Closing with direction to discuss at the pump?  It seems like the value of the perennial proposals list is to help constrain repetitious or unproductive debate, but in my experience even repetitious perennial proposals that offer nothing new and don't consider previous feedback don't end quickly.  The few who support it will do so vocally, and the majority who don't will feel compelled to participate so that their silence isn't taken as tacit support.  ╠╣uw [ talk ]  11:56, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Generally speaking such proposals affect a broader audience and so need the broader attention of a place like a Village Pump, or at least a notification at a Village Pump. I'm not personally a big fan of forcefully closing discussions, so my approach would be to warn the participants that unless the discussion is moved to a broader venue, it can't be acted upon. There are others who do take a more direct tack of closing the discussion; I just think most of the time it creates more fuss than is saved by letting the discussion wind down. isaacl (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the need for a broad audience would be handled if the discussion in question is advetized in an appropriate venue with a large audience. And without knowing which discussion you're referring to, we can't really answer the question. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I mentioned that notification at appropriate locations can be sufficient. Exactly how I might word a message would likely be context-specific. (I assume your second sentence is addressed to the original poster.) isaacl (talk) 16:12, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It's a proposed page move, and the proposal is contrary to a consistently applied guideline. It's failing at over 70% oppose. A local matter like that doesn't need a Village Pump consensus or Central Notice. It could reasonably be posted at the guideline's talk page, but the proposal is toast anyway. Just let it die naturally. The standard 7 day discussion period is half over.
 * In many cases a bad perennial proposal can get a quick WP:SNOW close after a few clear opposes. But a proposal with a 30% support and respectable arguments shouldn't get SNOW closed. This proposal is dead, but not SNOW appropriate. Alsee (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed that a page move in itself doesn't need a broader consensus (changing the relevant underlying policy or guideline would). If the conversation is ending, then as I alluded to originally (but I guess I didn't write explicitly), just let it end. isaacl (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

RFC pointer: CSD G13 to include all draft-space drafts
Watchers of this page may be interested in WT:CSD. --Izno (talk) 12:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Inline/title coordinates in infoboxes
Template:Coord warns that "Tools which read Wikipedia database dumps (such as Google Earth) often ignore inline coordinates. To ensure that coordinates are seen by these tools, one set should be displayed beside the title." - this also seems to be true for the Wikipedia API, which so far as I can see only provides coordinates for articles when they are displayed in the title, and ignores inline ones.

There are a number of articles that supply coordinates in their infobox, but only as inline (eg. Foundling Museum), and as such are invisible to third-party tools which access the API using coordinates. In cases where an infobox is in the lead section of the article and is already displaying inline coordinates, I propose that these should always be expanded to inline,title (to the point where this process could be performed by a simple bot). Are there any cases where this would be incorrect or unhelpful? --Gapfall (talk) 15:46, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Regarding the API, there are two types of coordinates: "primary" and "secondary". The default is to return only the primary coordinates, but the  parameter may be used to request secondary or "all". Foundling Museum currently only has secondary coordinates, but it does have them. Presumably it's the primary coordinates that are displayed by the title. Anomie⚔ 16:15, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Good to know. So for the sake of API queries that are just asking for an article's primary coordinates, is it safe to make the assumption that if there are inline coordinates listed in a lead-section infobox, they must be the primary ones for the article (and update the coords template accordingly)? --Gapfall (talk) 07:55, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough about how those infoboxes are used to say whether it's safe to make that assumption or not. Anomie⚔ 11:34, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Disputed dates of birth
If you go to the article on Robert Conrad, his date of birth is given as 1935, but the talk page on this article suggests this is disputed. Could we ask people to put "disputed" after dates of birth on some articles?Vorbee (talk) 08:43, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * One option in these cases is give a range or multiple dates with sourcing. Or use the with a footnote. --  Green  C  13:04, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesnt need "disputed" just add a footnote that some reliable sources disagree on the date. MilborneOne (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Review of WP:SOCKBLOCK
WP:SOCKBLOCK says: Users confirmed or believed to have engaged in the practice must request unblock at their main account. Make the unblock request from your original account. Sockpuppeteers aren't often unblocked&mdash;since they've acted dishonestly, it's hard to believe them&mdash;and the administrators certainly aren't going to unblock the sockpuppet account. However this has two flaws:
 * 1) Which is deemed the main or original account is sometimes decided inconsistently and randomly, and is not decideable by sockpuppeteers. (Sockpuppet investigations/OccultZone/Archive: "I realize that there are listed accounts here older than OccultZone, but I chose this case name due to the results of the ArbCom case.")
 * 2) The rule is not strictly enforced in practice (Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4). Sometimes sockpuppeteers don't want to use the imputed main account but want to request return using another account.

I propose to change WP:SOCKBLOCK:

--GZWDer (talk) 14:50, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This is an information page. It's true almost all of the time, but admins can make exceptions if an editor chooses to use a later account. I don't see any need to update the documentation. The advice it contains is valid; an admin will want a good reason why someone isn't going back to their main account. (The main/old account is the first one created; that's rather unambiguous.) ~ Rob 13 <sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">Talk 15:13, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with Rob. Admins can of course make exceptions, however this advice is all completely valid. And the main account is pretty unambiguous, as its the first one created. -DJSasso (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with Rob, as the user who added the second wuoted line, based on an unblock respone by . This page helps blocked users understand how to make an unblock requeest, it's not a policy which forbids admins from accepting unblock requests made against the advice on this page. As a piece of advice for the average sockpuppeteer wanting an unblock, it's absolutely correct. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)