Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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Article preview showing completely different article
I was working on an article, Downtown One (which is not a redirect), when I realized that the article preview links to a completely different article, which is List of tallest buildings in Albania. A redirect from the former to the latter did exist at one point in time, but was deleted in 2023. The bug should be visible to others, if it's not just let me know, I can post an image up. This is a relatively serious bug aswell, because it basically removes the ability to visit that page, effectively eliminating the purpose of Wikipedia. I've never seen this before, so I thought I'd let yall know. (Also I attempted to report it over at Phabricator, but for some reason the ver. email link never sent). At least one person over at WP:TEAHOUSE is completely clueless as to why that happens, and honestly so am I. Thanks :) Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 03:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I failed to reproduce the problem. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It just fixed itself. That is the weirdest thing. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 05:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * [[File:DowntownOneBugFix.png]] Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 05:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The redirect existed for 15 hours on 7 August 2023. Page Previews uses caching. I guess the cache was never updated after the deletion. I don't know whether this is normal for deleted redirects or pages. Page Previews doesn't activate on red links so it wouldn't normally affect users but it did when you recreated the page with other content. The cache was apparently updated between your first and second post, meaning between one and three hours after page creation. There are reasons for caching but 11 months is too much so I would call this a bug. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Page previews don't get actively purged on delete/revert/move/etc, only on edit. And then they still are cached for 24 hours (not sure what the exact value is). This is a known issue (or rather two of them). So what happened is that when you recreated the article, it used the OLD information (as it was still somewhere in the database), that got cached, edits were made causing references to update in the databases, and then 24 hours later the cache expired and it used the new information from the edits. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So, say someone creates a vandalistic page containing an objectionable image. The page gets deleted as G3. Later, someone creates a legitimate page at - or moves an existing page to - the same title. Is the preview going to show whatever picture that was previously on the vandalistic page? That could cause some surprises. Home Lander (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Correct. Could. But it's a temporary effect, so it isn't that common. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

How are repeated references numbered?
When you use the same reference more than once, the individual instances get assigned tags a, b, c, etc. Once you get past 26, it wraps around to aa, ab, ac and so on up to az, then picks up with ba, bb, and so on. As part of a tool I'm writing, I need to be able to generate these. My first thought was "its just base 26 using "a" through "z" to represent 0 through 25 in each column". But its not (he says after beating his head against the wall writing some python code to do base 26 conversion). If it were, then after "z" would come "ba" for "1 in the 26's column plus 0 in the 1's column". So what is this sequence? Is there some standard name for it? RoySmith (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

PAGE]]) 15:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC) PAGE]]) 16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC) PAGE]]) 21:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith See Bijective numeration. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * Here is some quick python code to do the conversion:
 * --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * (for the archives: this takes 1-based numbers, and the "/" should be "//" for Python-3) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmith (talk • contribs) 17:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm curious, why do you want to generate reference numbers? Legoktm (talk) 16:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ahecht Cool, thanks!
 * @Legoktm I'm not sure exactly where this is going, but I'm working on something to make it easier to do reference spot-checks for GA and FA reviews. So you'd be able to say something like "pick 10% of the statements in the article and show me what they're sourced to"  Using the current version of Oceanic whitetip shark), it might tell you that It is eaten fresh, smoked, dried, and salted and its skin made into leather is cited to reference 6-k.  I can dig out of the generated HTML   but I don't want to show that gibberish to the user.
 * This has been a frustrating project so far. It's been a series of, "Oh, all I need to do is..." false starts, foiled by the reality of just how perverse everything related to wiki text is.  Not to mention how we don't have one uniform referencing style I can target. RoySmith (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I hope that you stick with it. A tool like that would be very helpful to those of who do spot-checks and might create an easier learning curve for new reviewers. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You would think that it's some clever algorithm, but actually, there is just a big list at MediaWiki:Cite references link many format backlink labels. Matma Rex talk 19:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And which article was it that required more than 702 repeated uses of a reference, and pushed MediaWiki to use three-character ids? Or was it just paranoia? -- Verbarson talkedits 19:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This edit from 2010: refers to List of allied military operations of the Vietnam War, which is today mercifully a list of lists, but the 2010 version:  re-used a reference a cool 1037 times.  Matma Rex talk 19:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, my RoySmith (talk) 20:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see you and raise you List of marine bony fishes of South Africa, with 1,378. I found it the same way I found the previous record holder. Graham87 (talk) 03:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Which was right on the limit. Via search/replace all I thought it was one less than the limit (because there were 1,379 instances of the ref name), but the other one turns out to be because of list-defined references. I'd added more ref labels to the MediaWiki page before realising this; if someone really wants to revert my edit there, be my guest, but I can't think of a good reason to do so at this point. Graham87 (talk) 03:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What actually happens when someone adds more repeated refs than the list provides for? -- Verbarson talkedits 07:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See the end of User:Graham87/sandbox30, which apparently answers your question; in this case it says "" before the ref text, which is "Test ref". I created this file by adding the first line with the ref declared, then writing the next line with a named ref, copying it to the clipboard and pasting it, copying and pasting the resulting two lines, then the resulting four, eight, sixteen, etc. ... lines, all the powers of two. Graham87 (talk) 09:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Graham's Special:Diff/1233634000 added "baa" as the first new label. The error on the page User:Graham87/sandbox30 links to Help:Cite errors/Cite error references no backlink label. The section "Examples" there with "baa". It seems intentional, plus last update of Help page example correlates with previous update of the MediaWiki page.
 * It seems that the Help page needs to be updated to generate the error for demonstration purposes. —⁠andrybak (talk) 04:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graham87 See Equity lists/Ethnicity, which goes all the way to bzz and then continues citing the same reference another 1,300 times, the last 50 of which don't even display the error message because broken ref exceeds the post-expand include size limit. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * Ah, I didn't know about the error messages page with examples; I've redirected my sandbox30 page there. I've extended the reference list to "ezz" and updated the examples section; Equity lists/Ethnicity now goes up to "dxk". Graham87 (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Is this list actually used in some way when rendering citations on pages? RoySmith (talk) 13:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. These letter combinations are used in backlinks on the side of references, when a reference is used multiple times. See section Help:Cite errors/Cite error references no backlink label where a reference is used over 1300 times. —⁠andrybak (talk) 14:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh my. RoySmith (talk) 14:22, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

POC
I've got a POC running at https://wikirefs.toolforge.org/. It's really raw, with almost no error checking at this point, but you're welcome to play with it and give me feedback. If you've got a github account, feel free to file bug reports. FWIW, it turns out there's no need to generate bijectivehexawhatevers; all the strings I need are right there in the HTML and I just have to dig them out. Screen-scraping FTW!

Hey, this is interesting. It crashes on most pages :-) I think what's going on is it can't hand named references, which means most pages.  But you could click on https://wikirefs.toolforge.org/show?page_title=Arthur+O.+Austin to get a feel for what it does.  RoySmith (talk) 01:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Nice to see a peek behind the curtain. This is all way beyond me. Doesn't that article have named references? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:34, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Dark mode for logged-in users on desktop coming this week!
Hey, this is a continuation of the topic "Dark mode for logged-out users coming soon", specifically about desktop (the Vector 2022 skin).

In that previous message, we announced that dark mode on desktop would be rolled out in one step, for both logged-in and logged-out users, in the week of July 15 (that is, next week). However, we'd be more comfortable to enable it for logged-in users first. Articles here on English Wikipedia look very good in dark mode, and again, thanks to everyone who is contributing to it!

We are going to enable dark mode on desktop just for logged-in users this week. If everything goes well (it has been going very well so far!) we will enable it on desktop for logged-out users next week as we previously announced. It's gonna be exciting :D Thanks! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "We are going to"? I thought it was enabled for logged-in users already? Nardog (talk) 06:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It was only Logged in users with the beta option enabled before. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh. Does it mean "Accessibility for Reading" will no longer be a beta feature, or just the dark mode? Nardog (talk) 07:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, what? That was not a polar question. Nardog (talk) 11:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, I wanted to give a quick answer and misread :D Dark mode will no longer be a beta feature. Font size control will continue to be a beta feature. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Correction: The font size control is already available by default. The beta feature will disappear from the list because after this rollout, all options will be available for everyone. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What happens to people (like me) who don't use Vector? Will dark mode still be available in MonoBook? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nigel Ish (talk • contribs) 19:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Dark mode is supported only in Minerva and Vector 2022. Izno (talk) 21:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * So the existing dark mode (that does work in MonoBook) will stop working. Wonderful.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If by "existing dark mode that does work in Monobook" you mean the gadget? No, that will continue to function. Izno (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Eww, this one caught me by surprise... The contrast doesn't seem quite right at the moment. I don't think "dark mode" should be black, it should be off black for the best ease on the eyes. Hopefully the WMF will get these things right in due course. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's flicking black/white off-and-on for me. Page loads in dark & then seconds later turns white. The next page loads in white & seconds later flicks to black. Plus the diffs aren't visible in black. Instant migraine for me. Safari 16.6. Victoria (tk) 21:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Same. On my end, it was enabled by default and I had to go into preferences to enable the toggle just to turn it off in the interface.  Now it flickers every time the page loads. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I turned off the toggle in preferences, emptied my cached, restarted the machine. Still happening. Now the white pages render with the dark colors before turning completely black after about 5 seconds. I took screen shots. It seems to take 3 to 5 seconds to flick from white to black & then back again. Victoria (tk) 22:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, one wonders if this is causing seizures. "For 3% of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures." Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is true which is exactly why I'm unable to upload the screenshots. This is very very bad. Victoria (tk) 22:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder why nobody else is reporting it or is the least bit concerned. I've got a brand new computer as well. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I switched to Vector legacy in preferences as a workaround. Viriditas (talk) 23:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey there! I've added this to our FAQ. If you are seeing a flick from white to black, you have enabled the gadget AND have attempted to try out the new feature (possibly via preferences when it was in beta or via the new preference that now appears in the preferences page).
 * The number of people using the gadget is quite low compared to the number of viewers so I am not concerned that this is impacting a large amount of people. Jon (WMF) (talk) 23:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, please re-read my message. I disabled the gadget, doublechecked that it's gone, emptied my cache, restarted my machine. It's still happening. I will have to log out to override this. If you would like to see screen shots taken with the gadget disabled I'm happy to send them on, but you'll have to contact me. Victoria (tk) 23:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's what I initially thought, but the gadgets were all unchecked when it went live. Now, I get dark mode by default unless I check the preferences. I'm in Vector legacy to avoid all of it, because I can't fix it. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note, the dark-mode-toggle-pagestyles gadget is hidden on user preferences so it is possible you still have that enabled (it doesn't show up in preferences)
 * A few questions which will help us get to the bottom of this:
 * In legacy Vector are you seeing the dark mode gadget toggle in the top right?
 * If you enable Vector 2022, do you see the message "You're using a dark mode gadget". If yes, what happens when you click it and the page reloads?
 * Jon (WMF) (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In legacy Vector are you seeing the dark mode gadget toggle in the top right?
 * No.
 * If you enable Vector 2022, do you see the message "You're using a dark mode gadget".
 * No, unless I'm missing it. How do I fix dark-mode-toggle-pagestyles, if that is the problem? Viriditas (talk) 23:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Okay, I found it. There are two toggles for dark mode in preferences >> gadgets. One under "appearance" and then another one all the way under "utility". Both have to be turned off. Mine was still turned on under utility. The flickering only stops when they are both turned off. To find the control for dark/light mode now, one has to go to preferences >> appearance >> color. Color?? Seriously? In the meantime,, I sent an email with screenshots, but it's now irrelevant. Victoria (tk) 23:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's in "gadgets", and doesn't work for me. I have both off, and I'm still in dark mode.  If I switch them on, and then turn off dark mode, I get the flickering.  If I switch them off, I'm in permanent dark mode. Viriditas (talk) 00:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, Victoria is right, that worked. I had to change appearance > color to "light".  Problem solved. Viriditas (talk) 00:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm really not a fan of this new default setting. Has this even been tested by a broad group of people including casual users (not just people heavily involved in Wikipedia?
 * The "dark mode" is ironically way too bright because this is a text-heavy site. So, what you get now is a mass of white text, not a dark page. It almost seems *more* white. The drastic differences between the colors make it difficult to skim. (I don't mind it so much when I'm reading closely, but skimming is important, too.)
 * Also - this is a little pet peeve, but important for research. The color of already-clicked links doesn't change in info boxes (sorry I don't know the exact term but in a bio page, it would be the box on the top right with basic info like DOB, city, parents, etc.). This isn't a browser issue because it works in Vector legacy. Jim0101 (talk) 04:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jim0101 "new default setting" The default will remain light mode, the only thing changing is that you get an OPTION to set dark mode... —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * K well it switched to dark mode without me choosing that option. So that's naturally why I assumed it was the default setting when it did in fact default to that for me. Jim0101 (talk) 12:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey @Jim0101 - apologies for this! We had switched some users whose devices were requesting dark mode automatically to follow the device preference (this is what the "automatic" toggle in the menu does). After hearing the reports here, we've not switched this back.  Currently, the only way to see dark mode would be to explicitly opt-in. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 15:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am using a script which highlights different type of pages in different colors (sorry do not remember the name), this gives me as default blue on black, and this is not readable. I generally like the dark background, but here I had to switch back (using the appearance tab in the preferences). I can not switch off the script because I work a lot with category deletion, and categories need to be tagged.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * User:Anomie/linkclassifier? Nardog (talk) 06:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think so. Ymblanter (talk) 06:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, re contrast and readability I concur. I used it for a bit last night and my eyes were hurting by the end with some of the text impossible to read. Per Ymblanter above, I think this needs to go out to a proper group of test readers and full feedback taken on board before we roll it out as a default. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The linkclassifier script's colors are easy to customize if you know CSS. The default User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css isn't even required to be used. If someone wants to suggest a full set of colors for dark mode, that could be useful to incorporate in the default. Anomie⚔ 11:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Has anyone raised an issue with new notifications background going from white to dark background upon read? The text is unreadable. – robertsky (talk) 06:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your report @Robertsky! I'm wondering if you could give a bit more detail on where you're seeing this? Are you talking about notifications on the Special:Notifications page? Or within the menu in the top right?  If possible, a screenshot would be really helpful as well so we can identify where the issues is.  Thanks again. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 11:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that If you open "Notices" and then have new messages "from other wikis", that block in your notices shows a baby blue highlight color for 2 to 3 seconds or something, which is not yet dark mode compatible. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @OVasileva (WMF) as what @TheDJ described. Apologies for the delay, but here's a screen recording Screen recording of notifications in dark mode 20240712.webm – robertsky (talk) 15:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The same also happens to the Thanks notifications. – robertsky (talk) 07:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * going to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ADiff&veaction=editsource, the codes are rendered with white background and a light coloured text. – robertsky (talk) 09:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the details @Robertsky and @TheDJ! We're now tracking this in in this ticket. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 08:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Does dark mode give you the Willys 77
Thanks for giving Wikipedia a dark mode option! The settings page says Experimental version, high likelihood of experiencing issues--am i being helpful if i say i think i've found one?

Do we have (or should we have) a central thread where all of the discussions about the launch of dark mode should be in one place?

i've visited maybe a half dozen pages where dark mode seems to work, but the Willys 77 page still won't turn to the dark side, even after i:
 * reload the page,
 * close and reopen the tab,
 * open a new tab and type the URL into the address bar,
 * create a new link to that page (as in this post) and use that to open the page,
 * change settings back and forth a few times,
 * or retry the methods listed here, but in a different order.

Additionally, Help desk is mostly dark. i'm not sure if it's the same issue mentioned here, but this part: Welcome... (Am I in the right place?)... For other types of questions... Do not provide your email... New editors may prefer the Teahouse... [Ask a question] show/hide Wikipedia help pages this part stays white.

Wishing everyone safe, happy, productive editing.

--173.67.42.107 (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Willys 77 turned black. --173.67.42.107 (talk) 23:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello, thank you for reaching out here! I'm glad to see that the article turned black. It always takes a few days for new changes to be propagated across all pages because of caching. When we started running banners inviting logged-out users to switch to dark mode, the cache of just a few percent of the articles wasn't refreshed.
 * When it comes to the Help desk, I'm sure English Wikipedians will soon fix it. It is challenging, though. There are so many pages formatted with the assumption that the only mode is light, and there's a lot of special formatting on non-article pages. But reports like yours help technical editors prioritize their work.
 * Thanks again, for pointing at these issues, for your patience (so many steps to solve the problem of the persisting light mode), and kind words! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 00:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have fixed all of the dark mode Linter issues at Help desk except for the ones caused by Collapse top, which is fully protected. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

New dark mode is less readable
The default foreground color for text is way too bright/white and more than a few page elements on certain pages are as bright as light mode. Overall, it does not seem like an improvement on the old beta dark mode. I'd simply disable it and stick with the old beta dark mode for now, but if I do that, there's a white flash at the start of every page load and page refresh, which defeats the purpose of using a dark mode.

Here's several screenshots to show before vs. after.

Also, is there documentation somewhere describing the changes to the CSS? stopped working. Thanks. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 07:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Not having used the beta, the new version looks superior. A wp:village shrine should be erected to mark the occasion of implementation.
 * Though, the contrast issue may be a thing. Fiddling around with my monitor-settings, it feels like the default could be reduced quite significantly without other issues. JackTheSecond (talk) 09:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not just about what looks good, it's about reducing eyestrain and improving legibility. The new white text is simply far too bright at #EAECF0 rather than the previous text color in the beta, which was #DFDEDD. If you refer to Material Design's recommendations for dark theme, you'll see they recommend 87% opacity on #FFFFFF for "high emphasis" text (their term for the main text), which equates to #DEDEDE, essentially the same as the beta. The new experimental dark mode seems to overlook decades of user design research. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 21:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Dark mode turned on for me yesterday evening, and I found it very difficult to read, especially the watchlist page, where I had great difficulty seeing which changed pages I had already looked at. I managed to turn dark mode off, except that each page loads in dark mode, and I have to wait several seconds until it switches to light mode. At least dark mode is not popping up this morning. Donald Albury 12:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * WRT to documentation, See Recommendations_for_night_mode_compatibility_on_Wikimedia_wikis. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

templates that automatically change text colors from default settings?
i tried to make this clear, then i accidentally erased part of it and had to rewrite it. i hope it's (still) clear (again).

In dark mode, some sections of the Manual of Style have dark text that's nearly invisible on the dark background. i can just barely read it when i zoom in, but i can read it, so it's not exactly the same color... but it's much too easy not to see it at all if you don't know to look for it. It's darker than gray or dark grey text, but the blackground is slightly darker (and apparently black black text is even darker than that). Some of the red and green text can be hard to read on the dark background, too; they might actually use dark red and dark green instead of red and green. These non-default colors seem to be products of templates; i am not very "fluent" in the use of templates. (For instance, in the examples transcribed below, are "Correct" and "Incorrect" two different templates, one green and one red? Are "Correct", "Accepted", "Acceptable", "Better", and "Clear" all versions of the same green template?)

Examples:
 * from MOS:;
 * from MOS:HYPHEN
 * (sub-era, not subera)


 * from MOS:HASH
 * An exception is issue numbers of comic books, which unlike for other periodicals are conventionally given in general text in the form #1, unless a volume is also given, in which case write volume two, number seven or Vol. 2, No. 7. Another exception are periodical publications carrying both, issue and number designations (typically one being a year-relative and the other an absolute value); they should be given in the form 2 #143 in citations, or be spelt out as Iss. 2, No. 143 in text. When using the abbreviations, write, , , or , at first occurrence.

aside: Would He and Sammy Davis Jr. made several films together. be better ?
 * from MOS:CONSECUTIVE
 * Honorable mention for dark mode (light text on dark background) including phrases of dark text on light background, as seen in MOS:AFFIXDASH (EDIT: i just realized this particular issue must be with the ‹template Cat is being considered for merging› bit, not the Manual of Style itself):
 * The form of category names follows the corresponding main articles, e.g.,.
 * However, the principle is not extended when compounding other words in category names, e.g., and  both use hyphens.

Honorable mention also for viewing a Difference between revisions, where the revised portion of the article appears in light text on a dark background, but the editor's name/IP address appear with select stats as dark text (well, blue links, mostly) on a light background. For example, the diff for the most recent edit to this page shows mostly in dark mode, but shows
 * Lowercase sigmabot III
 * BOTS, TEMPLATE EDITORS
 * 2,189,332
 * EDITS

on a light background... and i didn't realize until i did that copy-paste that EDITS is there in text almost as light as the background.

Thanks to the people working on this.

aside: For my own amusement and future reference, i have been using my talk page (Learn more about this page) to test what names of colors work with this Wikipedia code (and which do not). Maybe that could help someone see which colors work best for light mode, dark mode, or both?

--173.67.42.107 (talk) 19:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have fixed all of the Linter dark mode issues at Manual of Style, so it may display better now. However, the green text generated by xt appears to be #006400, which, when placed on the #202122 "black" background of dark mode, results in a contrast ratio of 2.16:1, a failing score. The red text generated by !xt appears to be #8B0000, which, when placed on the same black background, results in a contrast ratio of 1.61:1, another failing score. I'm not sure what to do about that. Either someone needs to find a green that works with both, or a style sheet could be created to deliver different greens and reds in light and dark mode, or something else. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jonesey.
 * If i'm going to keep reporting these issues, maybe i should learn how to fix them myself, but i don't even know what questions to ask or if i'd understand the answers. For example, what's Linter?
 * --173.67.42.107 (talk) 09:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 173.67.42.107, see Linter. — Qwerfjkl  talk  09:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ...Huh. From MOS:HASH again:
 * they should be given in the form 2 #143 in citations, or be spelt out as Iss. 2, No. 143 in text. When using the abbreviations, write, , , or , at first occurrence.
 * "2 #143" and "Iss. 2, No. 143" seem to be dark green in both light mode and dark mode, but "Vol.", "Iss.", "No.", and "Nos." are dark green in dark mode and black in light mode? --173.67.42.107 (talk) 09:37, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

dark text on light background in dark mode
Seems many cells in episode tables (Template:Episode_table) have this problem, as seen on these pages: i'm still figuring out how Wikipedia tables work and Web colorss go right over my head, but i think Template:Episode_table lets you override some default colors, which still leaves the problem of picking colors that suit both light mode and dark mode, or altering the template so it switches colors when the user toggles between light mode and dark mode. --173.67.42.107 (talk) 09:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Whose_Line_Is_It_Anyway%3F_(American_TV_series)_season_13
 * Whose_Line_Is_It_Anyway%3F_(American_TV_series)_season_16
 * Nashville_season_5
 * The_Orville_season_2
 * I do not see any errors on those pages in dark mode. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I brought up this issue at Episode list with this discussion. Have not gotten any response there so maybe you can chime in. The IP is correct that the cell backgrounds are not adjusting properly in dark mode. Taking Nashville season 5 as an example, the "No. overall" column is rendering as I would expect in dark mode, while all the others are not. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Timeline for dark mode rollout
Re: Is "next week" on WP:THURSDAY? Could you please give dates for these? There are at least three relevant places on mediawiki.org: —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Reading/Web/Accessibility for reading: Currently, we are aiming for the following dates for deployment: ...
 * Reading/Web/Accessibility for reading: Pilot release 	March–May 2024 // Release for all users 	Not defined
 * Reading/Web/Accessibility for reading/Frequently asked questions – funnily enough, it's called "timeline", but has zero dates.


 * @Andrybak - good catch! We meant the Week of July 15th as stated in the first sentence - should have probably used the date again later in the message too. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 15:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

CharInsert and dark mode
When I have the CharInsert gadget enabled on the English Wikipedia (which is on by default), the buttons for individual characters are still white when I also have dark mode enabled (which it is for me because of my operating system settings). First reported on mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Accessibility for reading, but Jon (WMF) said to report it to the "gadget author". The user preference links here for troubleshooting, so here I am. -- Beland (talk) 06:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The fix probably needs to happen at MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-styles.css. The centralized discussion page for it is MediaWiki talk:Edittools. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki_talk:Edittools —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * FTR, fixed with Special:Diff/1234748800. Thanks! -- Beland (talk) 00:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Bot activity problem
, a bot which is supposed to look after various daily or weekly maintenance tasks, hasn't made any edits since July 1, including failing to update Database reports/Polluted categories (2) in eleven days despite that being a thing that's supposed to happen weekly, but the bot's maintainer says on their own userpage that they're not around much lately, and they haven't made any Wikipedia edits at all since July 3, so there's no way to know when they'll be back in order to look into it if I approach them personally (especially in July, when any editor could very well be on vacation for a couple of weeks). So could somebody take a quick gander into whether there's a problem with the bot, and maybe jumpstart it again if there is? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @DannyS712 is pretty active in other areas of the wikiverse and I suspect they will see this ping. It certainly doesn't hurt to try. https://toolsadmin.wikimedia.org/tools/id/dannys712-bot states they are the only maintainer, so there's nothing anyone can do to help (unless they are a Toolforge admin). &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  19:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a straightforward query without any postprocessing, so if DannyS712 doesn't respond or can't easily fix whatever's gone wrong, the report can be run at will on Quarry and it'd be trivial to migrate the WP:DBR subpage to Database report. —Cryptic 20:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I saw the ping, and have been meaning to get to this, but am aware of the issue - hopefully I'll have time this weekend, and sorry for the delays --DannyS712 (talk) 21:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if DannyS712 got to it this weekend and the bot just hasn't run yet, but if he didn't get to it, feel free to copy over my sandbox which has Database report set up correctly. (cc @Bearcat) --rchard2scout (talk) 07:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * DannyS712 has written a ton of great code done so much to help enwiki. -- Green  C  15:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Nobody said otherwise. The problem is with a bot not functioning properly for purely technical reasons, and absolutely nobody accused Danny of anything improper. Bearcat (talk) 14:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Issues with Twinkle
Hello, I am having an issue with Twinkle. It was working fine a few days ago but now the only option I see is 'config'. Could anyone help me fix this? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by SparrowQ (talk • contribs) 07:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Uncheck modules you want to use in "Turn off the selected Twinkle modules" on the config page. Nardog (talk) 08:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Script request
Hello. I would like to have a script that highlights whether an edit is the current version of a page in the recent changes page and the watchlist, the same way that "m" is displayed if an edit is minor or "N" is displayed if it's a new page. "current" should be displayed if an edit is current. I mainly edit via the mobile website so it should work on mobile as well. Thank you for answering. Uricoh (talk) 07:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * On the watchlist, unless you have checked "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent", then the item on the watchlist will be the most recent change, with the rare exception of someone saving an edit to the page after the watchlist was displayed. Sorry, I don't use the recent changes page, so I don't have an answer for that. Donald Albury 14:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oops! That option is in Preferences, Watchlist, Advance options. Donald Albury 14:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You don't need a script, you can do it in CSS. It's a very simple rule:  It works in all skins, so it should be put in . The   specifies a very pale green, which you can change to any valid web colour. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Used it and it worked. Uricoh (talk) 04:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Duplicated citations

 * 1) Which bot, if any, is looking for duplicated refs by comparing the URLs (and doi, and ISBN and ISSN and S2CID and OCLC et cetera) used in references?
 * 2) How would I fix these with AWB? Based on AutoWikiBrowser/General_fixes it looks like AWB should fix these, but I can't get it to do it.
 * 3) *For example, in George W. Bush refs 448 and 479 are duplicates and so are 506 and 508 and 395 and 516.
 * 4) *in Barack Obama refs 266, 267 and 271 are duplicates and so are 322 and 325 and 443 and 528.
 * 5) *In Joe Biden refs 110 and 648 are duplicates.
 * 6) *What is stopping AWB from fixing those? General fixes are enabled and AWB is not skipping the article. If they are not the exact same, can AWB merge them?
 * 7) Should we add a parameter to the duplicated references template that can be used to provide more information?
 * 8) How do people handle Category:All articles with duplicate citations (how do they empty it, what do they use to avoid the task of manually finding and merging duplicate refs)?

Thanks, Polygnotus (talk) 08:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * AWB will do it if they are exact duplicates. I used to use WP:REFILL. Otherwise if there are differences, I suggest a manual editing experience fix. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For Barack Obama it appears that it references a page that changes all the time, so archived pages are different. for Joe Biden those don't appear to be the same, so article may have changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graeme Bartlett (talk • contribs) 09:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * User:Polygnotus Bot_requests --  Green  C  15:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless a bot can recognise if it generates cite errors and roll back this would be a bad idea. All of the automated tools generate issues at one point or another that need review. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 16:35, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

WMF sabotage?
I assume that since loads of stuff has stopped working with every skin except Vector (2022), this is a deliberate way of forcing editors to switch to it even though no one wanted it in the first place. Nice call! ——Serial Number 54129 09:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC) PAGE]]) 14:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see no sign of that. If you tell us your skin and what isn't working then maybe we can help. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course, and apologies to WMF for the hyperbole. but it's blooming odd. I haven't touched my scripts for over a month—I know there's probably too many!—but over the last week (not sure absolutely since when), One-Click Archiver and Discussion Closer have disappeared from where they used to be. I noticed the latter's absence earlier when I tried to close a discussion. Tried all the available skins in preferences, the two scripts were missing in all of them except Vector 2022. Coincidence? Hence my outraged squawks of sabotage :)  I'm using Vector 2010 btw.   ——Serial Number 54129  11:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is, indeed, catastrophically egregious. Have you considered using User:Elli/OneClickArchiver.js and/or molotov cocktails? Polygnotus (talk) 11:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Both scripts should have been updated for changes that have been communicated multiple times in the Tech News newsletter, scripts without active maintainers aren't the responsibility of the Foundation. Sjoerd de Bruin   (talk)   12:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * , these are symptoms of a recent change in the HTML markup of headings, which you can see more about at Heading HTML changes, and these scripts having inactive maintainers. There are new versions of the scripts you mention at User:DaxServer/DiscussionCloser and User:Elli/OneClickArchiver. Curbon7 (talk) 12:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's so complicated![/MOANS] I deal with it now. Thanks for all your help, and I guess you too   :p   ——Serial Number 54129  12:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Serial Number 54129 The good news is that all this stuff will break for Vector 2022 in the near future as well. The markup changes that broke those scripts was implemented on older skins first, but will be implemented on Vector 2022 in MediaWiki 1.44. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * Serial Number 54129, I've already had to updaye one of my scripts to work in Vector 2022 because of some html change, not sure if that's related. — Qwerfjkl  talk  16:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Absolutely unacceptable opening comment. I just have to say it. F'ing 100k edits lets people get away with this shit I guess. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The title of this thread is rather hyperbolic, but there is something to be said about how this breakage came to be. Wikipedia depends on hundreds (if not thousands) of add-on front-end scripts (and other back-end tools) to do essential work. I don't think it's hyperbolic at all to say that if all these tools were to suddenly stop working, it would be very difficult to keep things going. These tools depend on navigating (and in many cases, modifying) the structure of a rendered page. As such, the structure of the HTML is an essential API, just as much as any of the other documented APIs. The problem is, it's not documented. And as we've seen here, it's subject to change with little or no notice, breaking stuff willy-nilly. That needs to change. RoySmith (talk) 14:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * All changes like this are clearly communicated wide ahead. That users keep using outdated scripts (or fork a existing script and never process the upstream changes) and we as the community have no way to force them to switch to a maintained version (or gadget) is a huge problem in the longer term. Sjoerd de Bruin   (talk)   14:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The issue here isn't little to no notice. The notice was given in Tech news updates and I had seen in the passing some repeated pings and conversations (or attempts to do so) on the various talk pages with the maintainers. Some of these userscripts as noted by some above were abandoned or maintainers not being active.
 * If anything, we should look at how the userscript system is being set up (by limitations of the software) to be dependent on bus factor of 1 editor, the maintainer to have the userscript updated. Are INTADMINS empowered to update these userscripts? If so, is having 9 INTADMINs (at the current count) sufficient to update and maintain the userscripts or even redirect these outdated userscripts to the updated ones when asked? – robertsky (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there a centralised place that lists all the common userscripts and who runs them? I think such a list might be helpful to track this sort of thing. Especially if you add maybe a "Last updated" + "How many editors use it" column. If a script is not updated and it falls behind, it's much easier to follow along or maybe notify editors. Soni (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For most used, see User scripts/Most imported scripts. Sjoerd de Bruin   (talk)   15:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For a general list see User scripts/List – robertsky (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's a pretty common problem with volunteer-written software. People often aren't great at succession planning, particularly when there is no financial incentive. Having the software be open source and thus available is probably good enough for small scripts. Once the tools become more elaborate, possibly with off-wiki build systems using languages other than Javascript, something more definite would be better. But it's a tradeoff: in the spirit of empowering anyone to build their own personal tools that can also be used by others, the community doesn't require any approvals that might be contingent on a long-term sustainable setup for maintenance (after all, the vast majority of scripts like the ones I wrote aren't ever going to need that). Human nature being what it is, it's hard to get backup developers ready unless they actually start taking over some of the development. But working in a team means some slowdown in development to co-ordinate and collaborate, though with the eventual benefit that there will be more redundancy in developers able to make fixes and enhancements. isaacl (talk) 16:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There is seldom a backlog (see User:AnomieBOT/IPERTable) of ready-to-go bug fixes on abandoned user script pages. It is not up to intadmins to maintain the programming of everyone's personal scripts, but we will process bugfixes if the script owner has abandoned the project. In general, editors should never assume that another editor will make a future edit and could abandon or change their own personal scripts at anytime. — xaosflux  Talk 18:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Anyone reading this may be interested in this phab ticket for a "Gadget API for adding buttons to section titles". — Qwerfjkl  talk  16:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeap. I was just going to drop a link to the phab ticket you linked, thanks for linking it. The ideal workflow would have been to create this API first, THEN start deploying Heading HTML changes. And anything that broke could be converted to the new API. But unfortunately that didn't happen. So now I have just been waiting for them to finish the staggered rollout, which will finally complete this Thursday July 18. At that point we can fix any remaining broken scripts. These scripts could have been fixed during the staggered rollout, but patching it to support 2 types of selectors is more complicated than just waiting for the rollout to finish, so the ideal time to fix all these is when the rollout is finished on Thursday. – Novem Linguae (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oof. An implemented T337286 would have saved a of time spent on (mostly duplicate) work for userscript maintenance in Village pump (technical)/Archive 213. —⁠andrybak (talk) 07:52, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably worth posting this on the wishlist. If more gadget developers are asking for an API, it makes an easier case for prioritizing it. 🐸 Jdlrobson (talk) 23:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Watchlist bug
I started a section recently at WP:BLPN. Now BLPN is not showing up in results for my watchlist. I used my “find” button to confirm this. The only mention of WP:BLPN on my watchlist results is its talk page on July 13:

diffhist mb Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard‎ 16:37 −2,321‎   ‎Lowercase sigmabot III talk contribs‎ (Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive 5) (bot) thank

&#32;Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s showing up again now, thanks.&#32;Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Now the bug is back. If the bug goes away again and stays away for at least a day, then I will report back here.&#32;Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This page is for discussing changes to the noticeboard. If you are having a technical problem please list on noticeboard itself. — xaosflux  Talk 19:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And please don't misuse . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How do you think I misused it User:Redrose64?&#32;Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, you're not quoting an extract from a piece of text, it's more of a sample output from a computer program, for which the  tags are more properly intended. But if you want to draw attention to one particular edit, why not simply post the diff link for the edit concerned? Also, those big blue quotemarks are very much out of place. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 13:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Tech News: 2024-29
 Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

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 * Octicons-tools.svg Wikimedia developers can now officially continue to use both Gerrit and GitLab, due to a June 24 decision by the Wikimedia Foundation to support software development on both platforms. Gerrit and GitLab are both code repositories used by developers to write, review, and deploy the software code that supports the MediaWiki software that the wiki projects are built on, as well as the tools used by editors to create and improve content. This decision will safeguard the productivity of our developers and prevent problems in code review from affecting our users. More details are available in the Migration status page.
 * The Wikimedia Foundation seeks applicants for the Product and Technology Advisory Council (PTAC). This group will bring technical contributors and Wikimedia Foundation together to co-define a more resilient, future-proof technological platform. Council members will evaluate and consult on the movement's product and technical activities, so that we develop multi-generational projects. We are looking for a range of technical contributors across the globe, from a variety of Wikimedia projects. Please apply here by August 10.
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Recommend articles
Is there a way to edit/change the “Recommended articles” that appear at the bottom of articles in mobile view? Blueboar (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Blueboar Yes, it's possible to add specific entries. There are some details at mw:Help:Extension:RelatedArticles about that. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 19:33, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that link didn’t help. I need more of a step by step instruction.
 * Also, why is this all hidden away on an extension and not editable directly from the article page? Blueboar (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Blueboar For example, at New York City they have  (and others) at the bottom of the article, written in the wikitext just above the categories.
 * I think it's setup like this (since 2015 when it was created) because it's intended to be useful to readers automatically, without any interaction needed (but with overrides available, like this, when required). Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can see how it works at The NYC article… but take a look at Roberto Mogrovejo (just to pick an article at random)… there are NO “related” tags at all. The three “related articles” seem to just appear by magic. It isn’t very intuitive. Blueboar (talk) 01:26, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's explained at mw:Help:Extension:RelatedArticles. By default they are selected automatically from a search so the editors don't have to do anything. You can override the automatic selection by adding . We rarely do that. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand that (now)… my concern is that, while this is (poorly) explained on a page at meta, there is nothing at the article level to help editors.
 * Perhaps the easiest solution that I might suggest is to create a bot that would write the automatically chosen “related” tags somewhere in the article’s edit view (listed the way the manually chosen ones at the NYC article are listed). Then, if editors want to choose alternatives, they have something to edit right there on the page. Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be better to actually have an edit link on related article that opened the editor with the three currently algorithmically-defined articles pre-selected and appended to the page. It would be pretty straightforward to create a gadget that does this.
 * A bot doesn't sound like a good idea as the recommendations improve as new articles get edited or created.
 * I believe the reason they are currently not in the article or editing is encouraged is that they do not show on the desktop site. It would also be nice if these showed up on desktop experience as well to avoid confusion. 🐸 Jdlrobson (talk) 23:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Related articles are deliberately only shown in mobile and Timeless in most Wikimedia wikis. https://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=InitialiseSettings.php says:
 * I don't know how it was decided but mobile omits navboxes and categories so there are fewer ways to navigate. It does work in Vector 2022 when it's enabled, e.g. at ht:Wikipedya and he:ויקיפדיה. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeh I honestly can't remember why disabled on desktop, but yes it would be trivial to add these to English Wikipedia desktop for any skin if it was requested and it would likely lead to better recommendations on the long term.
 * Probably worth a quick RFC or discussion under Village_pump_(proposals) if someone feels inclined to do that. Jon (WMF) (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably worth a quick RFC or discussion under Village_pump_(proposals) if someone feels inclined to do that. Jon (WMF) (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Manual of Style/Accessibility and Galleries
An editor claimed there is an accessibility issue with mobile version when it comes to galleries, yet I see no issues when I tested with a mobile device. There's also MOS:ACCIM, which makes the same claim about galleries. I'm just curious how up-to-date this information is? Many Featured articles such as Climate change make use of galleries.

Do the same issues apply to gallery tag, as opposed to Template:Gallery (which resize the images)? Bogazicili (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Stretched navbox
Template:Video game controversy stretches outside of its outline, presumably because of there being no line break in Notice of the National Press and Publication Administration on Further Strict Management and Effective Prevention of Minors' Addiction to Online Games. Should the article name just be piped to a shortened version, or should someone put the bug in Phabricator? QuietCicada chirp 20:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I've seen a similar issue where tables extend past the content well, and obstruct the tools panel. List of current NFL stadiums. JWheeler-WMF (talk) 20:41, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * From navbox:
 * "navbox automatically adds the class nowraplinks which can be overridden, for example with" Sjoerd de Bruin   (talk)   20:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Intermittent Python errors in background jobs
I intermittently get some errors on a background bot job. The bot fails, more or less gracefully, and picks up again at the next run, so this is not urgent, but if there's a way to avoid these errors it would be good to know. The errors include: Are there ways to retry in these cases, or do they indicate a server state in which the job is not going to be able to run anyway? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * pywikibot.exceptions.ServerError: 502 Server Error: Server Hangup
 * requests.exceptions.ConnectionError: ('Connection aborted.', RemoteDisconnected('Remote end closed connection without response'))
 * pywikibot.exceptions.ServerError: 503 Server Error: Service Unavailable
 * pymysql.err.OperationalError: (2006, "MySQL server has gone away (ConnectionResetError(104, 'Connection reset by peer'))")


 * Can be either. It can be an intermittent issue for 'any' request, or it can be a specific request that is trying to do something that the server isn't expecting or that is taking too long to eexecute.. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. These are always requests that run most of the time, so it's the intermittent issue. Failing gracefully seems like the best option. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Allow everyone to move pages in draftspace
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Allow everyone to move pages in draftspace. Nickps (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Alphabetical comparison of 2 strings
Does anyone know of a template or module which would allow me to give it two strings and simply return the one that comes first alphabetically (perhaps with a switch to choose between ascending or descending order)? Josh (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Joshbaumgartner just checking, you want an min function but for stings? So for example  ? —  xaosflux  Talk 22:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux That would be exactly right. The ability to have more than 2 strings compared would be great, though I only had 2 in mind for my purpose.  Josh (talk) 22:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe you can use sort list. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Or make a simple sortable wikitable; see Help:Sortable tables. Easy to sort more than two strings and easy to do ascending or descending sorts.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the thing is that I just want the first item returned because that value will be used in a template and further processed to format an output. Maybe I can process the list to strip all the rest of the list away but it would be a lot simpler if there were a way to just get the single value back.  I looked at sort list but I don't have the Lua chops to modify the module to give me the single value back, or to be called without having to use multiple lines to provide the input.  The functionality of min is exactly what would be most efficient to employ in the template I am developing, just I need it to work on strings.  Josh (talk) 01:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Lua supports less-than comparison between strings, so it would be straightforward to implement. (The implementation from Module:Math could be copied with the code enforcing numeric arguments removed, but being comfortable with Lua would be helpful as it uses various implementation techniques for reusability and efficiency.) I believe the result, however, would be dependent on the installed locale on the server and thus I'm not sure if it would be consistent, or would work across all Unicode characters. The same issue also exists for sort list, though, so I don't know if this is a problem for your specific use case. isaacl (talk) 04:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks like modern MediaWiki forces the C.UTF-8 locale, so results should be consistent. Even before that, since T107128 Wikimedia wikis have set that locale. Anomie⚔ 11:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest, I am not even at a beginner level with Lua. I've perused a few modules and made the slightest of tweaks to one or two of them, but I would rank my Lua fluency only about 3 microns above 0.  I sure that for someone of even intermediate ability this function is probably child's play, but I'm barely at newborn level, so this is why I have appealed to the community to find out if this function is already out there somewhere.  Josh (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you explain a bit more about the intended use? isaacl (talk) 13:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, I am working on a template that will determine complex category names based on elements provided and within the context of a given topic. In some topics, the elements are done alphabetically, so it needs to compare multiple elements and determine which comes first in the target category name.  For example, say it knows it is combining 'children' and 'adult humans', it needs to know which to list first.  The correct target is 'adult humans with children', as 'children with adult humans' would be a redirect or redlink.  If I could simply use 0 and get "adult humans" back, it would be super easy for the template to correctly form the target category name based on that.  Of course min is only for numbers, so it'd need to be a function that worked on strings.  Josh (talk) 14:37, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit confused by the example, since the two don't seem equivalent and an alphabetical sort doesn't seem like a reasonable way to choose one over the other. It feels like the code would need to search through category hierarchies to find the most suitable category? isaacl (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't need it to do any category hierarchy searching, as the structure is already known and set. It doesn't really matter to me, or at least to this template, why the category names are arranged they way they are, that's already a fact of life.  I have something that works now, so thank you again for the input!  Josh (talk) 02:44, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Joshbaumgartner, see if  →  can help. You can use with as well. This way you may need no further processing for your category name. Ponor (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC) + 19:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I will give that one a shot and see how well it works. Josh (talk) 22:13, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ^-- this is important because of how parsing and nesting may work; especially if you are trying to input something dynamic, and use the output as in input to something else. Writing a lua to purely take some pieces of raw text (so long as they are not very long), sort, and display the first value isn't super hard -- however it may need to be written in different ways depending on if the inputs are just text and the format of the output. For example if the inputs are  does the link need to be delinked, or should the brackets be sorted? —  xaosflux  Talk 14:39, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. For my application, it will be getting raw text in all lowercase.  Initially it should be only two values, but it would be nice if that had growth potential to all for more (as min does).  I would not think any de-linking or other such formatting would be required on the function side.  Josh (talk) 15:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you everyone for the input. The following code does the trick exactly:
 * Thanks! I've created a simple template here to use it. Josh (talk) 02:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I've created a simple template here to use it. Josh (talk) 02:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I've created a simple template here to use it. Josh (talk) 02:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Mediawiki errors
Has anyone else been experiencing MediaWiki errors? I tried a few projects and got them across the board. I hope it's over now. ꧁ Zanahary ꧂ 00:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I was also getting an error. I don't remember the exact error but it did start with MediaWiki: Wikimedia\Rdbms\[error name] I think it was DBUnexpectedError J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 00:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I get this:

MediaWiki internal error.

Original exception: [34ac1401-8578-4b58-a1be-36b1278fa8bf] 2024-07-19 00:14:57: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBUnexpectedError"

Exception caught inside exception handler.

Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
 * It has been happening on and off for about 10 minutes. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I got that when I was previewing an edit, and another time when (IIRC) I just visited a user page. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 00:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Help, I'm drowning. It keeps happening every edit I make! The edits do seem to go through though, so there's that. Silver  seren C 00:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I cannot make this edit logged in. I got the error several times, changed my theme to Minerva, changed my theme to Vector 2022, and now cannot open any page while logged in. It's fine (I think?) logged out, and the Android app works but can't post to this page, 2600:1702:1C50:1360:18FA:42C0:F510:BE6A (talk) 00:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have the exact same problem. 2001:BB6:3084:2658:F14B:6D9A:F011:5C09 (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am getting this too. I was not happening earlier today (Two hours ago). Looks like WP:THURSDAY. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  00:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * It's not letting me delete any pages or posts responses to talk page comments. Frustrating. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 00:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * except for this one. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 00:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The discussions I initiate are particularly robust and bugs know to leave them alone, out of reverence and disinterest. ꧁ Zanahary ꧂ 01:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The last page deleted happened at 00:22 UTC which was 50 minutes ago. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, some functionality for admins has returned. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I had three almost identical messages like these, with different exception codes:
 * [f1541cf5-6bd5-4dac-bb64-7cff625c7692] 2024-07-19 00:40:42
 * [ec5f67e0-1672-48da-8f70-a53aecdb9ad3] 2024-07-19 00:42:17
 * [18674d8b-749c-40be-9138-0eba30011100] 2024-07-19 00:46:26
 * In between edits #1 and 2, I managed to save one edit. In trying to publish this edit, I got 1 2 3 more of these. Mathglot (talk) 00:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fyi, exception codes are always different. One per page load. Even if the error msg is the same. I think they correspond to error log entries. – Novem Linguae (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Same, so dead. Can't navigate, edit, or view hardly any page when logged in without getting that error/warning page. Hope this gets fixed soon. 2606:A800:CD82:9700:1DE4:7632:6615:835C (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm the same. I can't do anything when logged in. The iOS app appears to be working fine though. 2001:BB6:3084:2658:F14B:6D9A:F011:5C09 (talk) 00:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T370304. Nurg (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm the user who mentioned the iOS app above. Everything appears to be working okay now. Bertaut (talk) 01:06, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was about to ask whether anyone else had seen these errors. I don't think that I need to ask the question.  It appears to have been resolved.
 * The question now is what happened and whether a recurrence can be prevented. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * According to some logs on IRC the database serving S4 (Commons) went down. For reasons I don't quite understand that caused pages with no relation to Commons to fail. Probably the devs will write up some docs on what happened soon. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I thought I'd lost two or three hours of work on Timeline of the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, i.e. the entire new article. When I set about to begin it anew this morning, lo! It was all there! Passingly strange and a P.I.T.A. kencf0618 (talk) 16:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The IP information tool appears to be down, showing only "The IP information could not be retrieved." I wonder if that's related. CMD (talk) 08:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not related. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * T363118 – Novem Linguae (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Aww, I really hoped it was not the previous April/May issues. CMD (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Idea: 2024 CrowdStrike incident. I hope not, because that would mean that we depend upon Microsoft. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, not related. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

List of pages containing sic with hide
How can I generate a list of pages containing with the optional hide argument? -- Green  C  05:19, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The "monthly report" in the TemplateData section is sometimes helpful. This list might be what you want. It's based on the monthly database dump, so it won't be current. The most recent report shows 4,277 articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:47, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You can also try a live search like PrimeHunter (talk) 09:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks (and for I'd not seen before). My goal is to find uses of  embedded in URLs ie. {{search link|1=hastemplate:sic insource:hide insource:/\{{!}} *hide *=/ insource:/[-]\{\{sic/ }}, has about 80. To get them all I'd probably need to change the last regex to   then use a bot to see if it's in a URL, in which case might as well use the larger number from Jonesey95. Only trying to understand how widespread this intractable problem is. Employing  or not in these situations is a bad choice either way, and I don't see a good solution. If you don't add {{tld|sic}} then users and user scripts/AWB etc search and replace misspellings, breaking the URL. If you do add {{tld|sic}}, it breaks bots and tools which can't parse multiple encoding schemes, it violates the IETF RFC on URL encoding standards. In theory bots and tools should account for it, but it's an edge case and difficult to program for, I'd be surprised if any tools or bots are aware of it.   --  Green  C  15:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * {{ping|GreenC}} {{tl|nobots}} may be of use. Polygnotus (talk) 23:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think {{tl|nobots}} would make sense here. Even {{tlg|bots|deny{{=}}AWB}} would probably be excessive. WP:SPELLBOT basically prohibits spell-checking bots, and if a human editor is using AWB or some other tool or script (or even manual "fixing") to break URLs while spell-checking then WP:MEATBOT would apply if they refuse to be more careful with their edits. Anomie⚔ 13:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OTOH, I suspect the editors adding {{tl|sic}} inside URLs aren't trying to stop bots or scripts from fixing them so much as trying to clear a search for misspellings as they fix the ones that can correctly be fixed. Checking the first few from GreenC's search above finds all were added by User:Federhalter, so pinging {{them|Federhalter}} in the hope {{they|Federhalter}} will elucidate {{their|Federhalter}} process and {{they|Federhalter}} and GreenC can come to a better solution. Anomie⚔ 13:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK thanks for pinging Federhalter, hope they respond.
 * Using this template or not has deleterious effects over the long term. How many URLs have been silently broken by spell checkers, we never know. How many URLs have been mangled by bots, or link rot incorrectly detected, because of the template. My intuition is the spell checker problem is more common because there are more editors running spell checks; and we hope bot writers are more expert to deal with the template. The template thus might have the advantage, though neither is a good solution. -- Green  C  16:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Background color in edit textarea for dark mode
When I edit admin-protected pages like Template:Disambig editnotice, I get nearly-white text on a very light pink background, and it's nearly invisible. Does anyone know where this color is set? Is that part of the skin CSS?

BTW, I added class=skin-invert to that template, but the results are pretty ugly in dark mode. It (and many other templates) could probably use upgrading to CSS variables with the palette from, though it's very difficult for me to edit it safely at the moment. -- Beland (talk) 03:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I've thrown Something at the problem now that I've been reminded about at least 5% of why I asked for int admin back. We're going to need to refine colors, these don't necessarily mesh well with syntaxhighlighting, which is still a known problem child. Izno (talk) 04:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * (Alternatively, we can ditch the pink for editing protected things and just use the base colors, but IDK how that will go down with Everyone.) Izno (talk) 04:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The pink reminds me that I'm editing a protected page, and that I need to exercise extra caution. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This discussion prompted me to post a bug report: . —⁠andrybak (talk) 12:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I know what the purposes of the background is, I am just about convinced however that it isn't valuable to load for every user in the groups of interest. Izno (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the BTW, this template strongly needs to reconsider whether it should have the (coffee) color it does. It is intended as a system message (edit intro) and should be colored as expected for that series of templates. It looks like it was added based on "it would be more noticeable", which I think is a miss since most other edit notices are no more noticeable. But particularly to using a Codex color, there are no coffee colors in that palette. Izno (talk) 04:15, 20 July 2024 (UTC)