Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 185

Reverted tag on page protection entry
I protected a page as seen in Special:Diff/982904761. The new "Reverted" tag was applied somehow, and I'm not sure why. Might this be a bug, and if so where should I report it? — Wug·a·po·des​ 19:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder if an edit conflict undid the protection somehow. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:51, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the protection was unaffected--it was only 31 hours so MusikBot behaved normally. That's what made it weird in fact, the "reverted" tag didn't really make sense since everything else appeared to work normally. Looking closer, I think it's related to the following edit? Ifnord manually reverted the edit from before the protection, and both the prior edit and this protection entry are marked as reverted. My guess is that, since protection logs an empty diff, it's an edge case where empty diffs count as having been reverted if they fall between substantive edits. Has anyone noticed this problem elsewhere? It seems this tag is defined by the software, so presumably a phab ticket would be the next step. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think Phab is appropriate. The task that implemented it was phab:T254074, which has a few interesting projects. Another related task has the phab:tag/MediaWiki-Page-derived-data project also. --Izno (talk) 20:31, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The action is marked as reverted because it falls in between two revisions of the page which are identical to each other. Thus the software considers all intervening edits between those two edits as "reverted". Since your "edit" is actually a log action which doesn't change the text of the page, the tag being applied seems undesirable. – SD0001  (talk) 20:30, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Template:Abbr mobile display
I've discovered recently that tapping on an abbreviation (e.g. NASA) in mobile doesn't do anything. From my query at the template talk page, it seems we need to do something with Reference Tooltips, but I'm not sure what or how. Could anyone help? There are a lot of mobile readers, and they should be able to benefit from Abbr the same as desktop readers. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:36, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is T130011. I don't think Reference tooltips would work for users on the mobile site, since that's a desktop feature. Mobile does pop up references in a drawer at the bottom of the screen when they are tapped on, building on that design seems like it could work for abbreviations too. the wub "?!"  22:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Massive memory use on Chrome/Mac?
I've had a weird issue where Wikipedia tabs take up a *massive* amount of memory (Chrome 85.0.4183.121/Mac 10.13.6). For example, a tab open to Sören Benn for the past few days currently has a Chrome memory footprint of 7.1 Gigabytes. Is there any known issue that might cause this to happen? power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 06:04, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , try opening the same page in safemode. Could it be that one of your userscripts is causing the issue? —⁠andrybak (talk) 11:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll try safemode, it will take some time for the memory usage to climb. None of the scripts should be causing this, but it's possible.  The other weird thing is that when I try to use the Chrome console to inspect memory usage, it magically drops back to under 100MB. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 22:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Safemode may be helping a little bit, but it's not the main issue. After a few hours, the regular tab is at 3.5GB, and the safemode tab is at 2.8GB.  By comparison, immediately after opening a tab it's at around 100MB according to Chrome Task Manager. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 00:18, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Archive script?
Hi all, I was wondering if there is a script for autoarchiving? As in, a button that I can click that will add the relevant bot info and an archive box to an article's talk page?

Obviously this is not a critical problem but it is something that would probably prove to be the icing on my Wiki cake :) --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There is help at Help:Archiving a talk page and examples at User:Lowercase sigmabot III/Archive HowTo — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 14:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Found what I wanted here: {{subst:Setup auto archiving}}. --Tom (LT) (talk) 00:33, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

W:
Ok, so I have a question about the letter W followed by a colon. I know that it is usually acceptable to have titles with a letter followed by a colon, for example:. A title like  has the page name   because   is a shortcut to Wikibooks. What title would we use if a title were to contain  at the beginning? is a shortcut to Wikipedia, so  is the same as. What title would we use in a circumstance like this? --Gioguch (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Any other title that "works". Most typically I see dashes. Sometimes no separator. Occasionally the page is at a title without the problematic characters. --Izno (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Can I ask why? You seem to be exploring "edge cases" and limitations of the MediaWiki platform. Can you elaborate on what you're trying to accomplish, and how it will benefit Wikipedia? —[ Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 23:48, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have been elaborating on some parts of Wikipedia. The reason I am exploring "edge cases" is because I have been very interested into the MediaWiki platform lately. I am just really into the MediaWiki software, specifically inter(language/wiki) prefixes. --Gioguch (talk) 23:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Per the note at the top of the page, MediaWiki questions should go to . This Village Pump page is for reporting problems or asking questions specific to Wikipedia. RudolfRed (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Parameter in thumb images to display attribution under caption?
Would it be possible with some templatestyles and /styles.css to introduce an additional parameter to the xyz.png syntax to add an attribution field below the caption? Ideally, the attribution field would pull the author and license from commons, but otherwise manually defined as xyz.png. I'm testing better automation of this template in my sandbox that avoids having to change between  and  ! T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 11:21, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Clicking the image takes you to the file description page, which is sufficient for attribution. We do not want to clutter pages with attribution text, see MOS:CREDITS. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 12:44, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries. I agree that it wouldn't have been a good option to have enabled by default on en.wp (though could have made an interesting optional gadget). It's more for import/expert between pages like WikiJournal_of_Science/Lysenin and Lysenin. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 02:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ... To answer the question, no, that will not work. Images are not extensible on wiki. --Izno (talk) 12:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that makes sense. Pity, but I guess the backup option is a template within the caption. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 02:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:PCT
For the past few days, the page curation toolbar has strangely not been loading for me. Can anyone help me? I'm finding NPP difficult without the toolbar.  Java Hurricane  06:00, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Now at phab: see T265112.  Java Hurricane  02:16, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Special:Nospecialpage
I don't know how much you know about code, but I am curious about what page has the message "No such special page." For example, I have the mindset tthat everything on English Wikipedia is a "page." A "page" is a page that is in any namespace, so https://www.wikipedia.org is not a page, it's just an HTML page unrelated to the MediaWiki software. The page Talk:Main Page is a page, and Talk: is really just the page Special:Badtitle. That's what page you get directed to when you log out. Any invalid special page name just redirects you to the name of the page you entered. What is the "No such special page" page? Is it Special:Nospecialpage? I would never know, because it would still display the message, telling me that it is not a valid special page. Ok, then I might as well look at the color of the link to know. But I still don't know, because it might be a red link like Special:Badtitle, where it is a red link although it is a valid target page. Is there an answer to this? --Gioguch (talk) 23:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Not everything is a page, and what you found is an example of something that isn't a page. See https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki/blob/6c257c213922017b3ebc6c9192653ec463b56c29/includes/specialpage/SpecialPageFactory.php#L748 for how that error gets displayed. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The appearance of this error message is configured by editing MediaWiki:Nosuchspecialpage (title) and MediaWiki:Nospecialpagetext (content), if that's what you're asking. ―cobaltcigs 13:01, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Total thanks received
How do I check the total number of thanks I've ever received? It's weird that I can see the total thanks I've given but not the total received. It could be a nice moral boost (same thing as total edit counts and barnstars). 14.186.12.107 (talk) 04:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Go to the thanks log and put the phrase "User: " in the title field and nothing in the performer field, like this. Graham 87 08:17, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This method only allows counting by hands. It would be tedious if let's say someone with thousands of thanks. I'm looking for a way that counts it automatically. 14.186.12.107 (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You'd have to request a query ... you can also fiddle with the limit in the URL to go up to 5,000 (warning: huuuuuge page!). My screen reader calculates the number of items in each list; it says I've received 1,755 thanks. Graham 87 10:17, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Go the log as Graham87 mentions, set the limit param in the URL to 5000, then open the browser console and enter the following:  - this will display the number of thanks received. –  SD0001  (talk) 15:28, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think IP users can be thanked &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:30, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * They can't. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:10, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Dark theme
Hello Wikipedians :)

Wouldn't it be great to have a dark theme? I quickly tinkered something here as a little foretaste. Could someone tell me if something like this is planned or who is responsible for it? To make a beautiful design, more beautiful than the current "Vector" is really not difficult! If there are people here who like the dark theme more than the current one, they could write code together, or not?

PS: if someone is seriously interested, you can write me an email, as I am not very active here. -Killarnee ( C•T•U ) 23:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * you may want to follow or contribute at T199634 as well to help build a dark vector theme for everyone. — xaosflux  Talk 23:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
 * But fair warning: It's really, really hard.  Changing a MediaWiki skin is difficult.  Creating a good dark-theme skin is like "whole team for a year" hard, not just a few tweaks and we're done. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:39, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Nedumudi Venu
Need help removing the director and number columns since they are not recommended at WP: Filmography.TamilMirchi (talk) 23:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ DMacks (talk) 23:40, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Remove number column for Renji Panicker.TamilMirchi (talk) 00:03, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ DMacks (talk) 04:18, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Remove director column for Bharathiraja. Thank you.TamilMirchi (talk) 14:57, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT. Removing table columns isn't difficult, especially if you use the visual editor. Nardog (talk) 06:08, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Citing anthologies?
Are there some tools/best practices for citing anthologies? Books that are collections of individual essays, that is. Im The IP (talk) 12:07, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * from a "technical" perspective, you have many choices - "that" you cite your source is more important than "how" you cite it, as it sounds like your source is actually a book cite book should work for you, and following from the guidance at Citing_sources it depends on what you are citing - if it is a quote or idea from an individual essay then you could treat that like a "chapter" even if it isn't literally a chapter, if you are incorporating ideas or quotes from the editors of the book then cite them. For more non-technical guidance on this, you can follow up at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources.  —  xaosflux  Talk 13:04, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There's also cite encyclopedia which which you could treat essays in the anthology like encyclopedia entries. Graham 87 13:25, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Any examples of this somewhere? I want to use the sfn template too, so it seems I have to define one source per essay per book? Im The IP  (talk) 13:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * this isn't really a technical issue - so you may get better advice at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources - but looking at those templates from a technical perspective - they do support authors, and have guidance on Template:Sfn - but that is likely only useful if you are trying to cite an idea and support it with writings from more than one essay at once - if you are trying to cite actual quotations you will want to attribute each to the appropriate actual author so you should encode each of those separately. It is better to have "too many" citations at least initially as well, and thank you for caring about this topic! —  xaosflux  Talk 14:13, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The article in question is Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. I've used the "cite journal" template for chapters in anthologies. I'm not sure that is right since the chapters aren't really journal articles... Im The IP  (talk) 11:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Use for academic and scholarly journals; use  for SSRN sourced papers; use  for magazines and other non-journal periodicals;  for websites; use  to cite a chapter in a book of individually authored chapters.  When citing multiple individually authored chapters contained in the same book, consider using.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:34, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

"Top edits" oddity
If I try to look at my "Top edits" from this xtools page, I get No contributions found. But if try from "my" xtools page, things seems to be working. Something is wrong somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This has been fixed and will go live with the next deploy (probably in a week or so). &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  21:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:14, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

A way to view drafts created
I know that my question is probably beyond the scope of VPT, but looking at this WMF tool that can be accessed by clicking "Articles created" at the bottom of a user's contribution history, I think it would be really useful to see drafts that an editor has created. Is there an easy way to do that? Context: The linked editor is a suspected sock and is likely engaging in UPE. I'd like to see all the drafts they've created so I can add them to my watchlist and spot future socks easier. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:11, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * you can use Special:Contributions to filter by both creations, and namespace - for example here are YOUR created drafts. — xaosflux  Talk 19:48, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, good work-around, thank you! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:51, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Parameter usage tool
Being inspired by WP:JCW, which is a compilation of the journal found in various cite xxx templates, I was wondering if it would be possible to scale something like this to any parameter found in template. Taking a simpler example of Marriage, what I'm thinking of is a tool that summarizes its parameter usage.

Something like


 * Step 1: User tells the tool what template they are interested in (e.g. Marriage)
 * Step 2: Tool dynamically finds all foobar names used with the template, tool presents the user with a summary of parameter usage
 * Step 3: User tells the tool which parameter(s) to compile (e.g. end
 * Step 4: Tool dynamically compiles all usage those parameters
 * Step 5: Use tells the tool which specific parameter value they are interested in (e.g. ), to find which article use it.

Template: Marriage x 13560 [A] Parameters found: Select which parameter to compile [B]
 * ☐ 1 x 13505
 * ☐ 2 x 13705
 * ☐ 3 x 13503
 * ☒ end x 7837
 * ☐ rason x 2 [This isn't an 'official' parameter, being a typo of reason, but the tool would still find it]
 * ☐ reason x 6543


 * end usage
 * ☐ d × 135
 * ☐ d. × 535
 * ☐ died × 235
 * ☐ div × 185
 * ☐ div. × 635
 * ☒ divoce × 2
 * Example, Foobar
 * ☐ divorce × 155
 * ☐ divorced × 142
 * ☐ her death × 685
 * ☐ his death × 893
 * ☐ w × 134
 * ☐ w. × 935
 * ☐ wid × 564
 * ☐ wid. × 465
 * ☐ widow × 181
 * ☐ widowed × 1953
 * ☒ window × 3
 * Example, Foobar, Barfoo

&#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:09, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * * Pppery * it has begun... 20:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 👍 Seems to handle most of what I want. Not pretty, seems very functional. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, it doesn't seem to want to list anything meaningful when you click on 'page links'... is the tool broken? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, it just takes a lot of time to show usage. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Mouseover preview for wikilink is broken
I don't think this has come up and been resolved before, but happy to be corrected! I'm working on a recently moved page, and nearly finished, but I notice that the wikilink preview shows this message on mouseover: "There was an issue displaying this preview". Is there an obvious solution I have missed? Link here: UK Web Archive. Timeousbeastie (talk) 17:11, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Page previews usually show content from the lead section, so perhaps once you add one to your article that will fix it. the wub "?!"  18:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

That was the issue, Thanks! Timeousbeastie (talk) 22:02, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Watchlist timeout
Trying to edit my watch list, I get: [11f1d5a8-83d1-4f2a-addf-8ad5f524b7f6] 2020-10-14 10:22:05: Fatal exception of type "WMFTimeoutException". My watchlist  has over 34,000 entries and used  to be the central central  motor  of the work I  did on Wikipedia. However, I am now retired and I would like to  edit it down to  just  a dozen or so pages or delete it completely and start over. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you access Special:EditWatchlist/clear? – Majavah talk &middot; edits 10:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You may want to attempt Special:EditWatchlist/raw first. — xaosflux  Talk 17:05, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you both. Deleted and just 126 restored. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 34,000? Mine is 23,000 and throws a similar error. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Gadget to highlight own talkpage comments
I've found how to format talkpage comments based on the their indentation I'm looking to highlight comments based on the specific user who posted them (e.g. highlight my own comments as green). The idea would be to basically: I get the feeling that it should be possible via some .js gadget but that's way byond my current abilities. Anybody here with the technical knowhow to get me started? T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 09:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Templatestyles css template
 * Example page
 * 1) look through a  section and find the last .*? link (assume that's the user's signature)
 * 2) if it matches a given string (e.g. own username) apply a custom formatting to that section
 * A user script can highlight a specific set of comments by adding a class that is then formatted in the CSS. User:GhostInTheMachine/TalkHelper2 does this for comments from yesterday, today and by the current user. Take a look at User:GhostInTheMachine/TalkHelper2.js and note the final line that adds the talkHelperMe class. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:49, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be a script; it should be possible to highlight a signature using CSS - here's how. All signatures contain links, and all links comprise an  element, the opening tag for which might be: - those two attributes,   and , are distinctive for each user. So an attribute selector can be used, something like this:   Unfortunately there is no means in CSS to expand the scope of a selector to an ancestor element. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Very useful - thank you! That ability to add additional class based on :contained text seems like what I'm thinking of. The full situation that I'm looking to implement is replace wgUserName with some way to pull a username from wikidata to format comments based on roles for a particular page. The main usecase in the WikiJournals (example review page and its wikidata item), to format comments based on whether they are from the submitting authors, handling editors and peer reviewers, or others. Currently we have to do this all manually via templates (, , and  ) which is pretty suboptimal! It's definitely beyond my abilities at the to write the js currently, but I'm looking for assistance from more tech-savvy users. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 00:36, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-42
 Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems
 * Because of the problems with the MediaWiki version two weeks ago last week's updates are also late.

Changes later this week
 * Live previews didn't show the templates used in the preview if you just edited a section. This has now been fixed. You can also test CSS and JavaScript pages even if you have the live preview enabled. Previously this didn't work well.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 13 October. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 14 October. It will be on all wikis from 15 October (calendar).

Future changes
 * Octicons-tools.svg A new stable version of Pywikibot is coming soon.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.  15:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Not announced, here, but posting for the record: Short descriptions housed at Wikidata are no longer being displayed on en.WP, as of approximately 13 October. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:07, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Archive search box at Talk:Jaden Smith
Ugh, this is embarassing, but I'm having trouble figuring out why there's no searchable archive box like wot you'd find at the top of Talk:Doctor Who. Archives do exist, see Talk:Jaden Smith/Archive 3. Isn't Talk header the template that invokes this? It's there, but I don't see the search box. And there is no fancy parameter formatting of this template at Talk:Doctor Who, yet it works. Thanks, and I hope it's something stupid so whomever figures it out can laugh at me. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The Talk header template provides a search box if it finds an archive. The actual test is .. #ifexist:.../Archive 1. In the case of Talk:Jaden Smith, the only archive page is number 3, the test fails, the template assumes that there is no archive and there is no search box. Maybe rename Talk:Jaden Smith/Archive 3 to Archive 1 and adjust User:MiszaBot/config ... counter = 3 to match? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅: Special:Diff/983667643 & Special:Diff/983667728. —⁠andrybak (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks all. I didn't even think to check for Archive 1. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Sidebar shows up in a larger font than usual
It seems that the sidebar on the left hand side randomly shows up in a larger font than usual (with the 100% zoom level). I have tested this in several different browsers (IE, Chromium Edge, Chrome, and Firefox) and got the same result. This has happened only momentarily, and it has since been fixed. So, is there any reason why this happened? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 19:42, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's Thursday? – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

What is the process for using the login api?
I am using Node.Js to create a bot however, I'm very confused as to why I get the NeedToken error even after getting a login token through 'action=query&meta=tokens&type=login'. I don't see what's going on because a token is getting returned and sent to the login.

I need some help with this.

BJackJS talk 17:28, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * @BJackJS, not a specific answer for your question, but you might want to try https://github.com/macbre/nodemw - it's used on some other bots and has all the API set out for you and will cut out a lot of extra work, just install it through npm Ed  talk!  17:48, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * @Ed6767 The limitations of the nodemw library isn't compatible with what I need. I already have a base framework, it's just the login that I have problems with. I'm not sure of why it's constantly giving me a NeedToken error even though I sent the token.  BJackJS  talk 20:43, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * API login procedures have changed with MediaWiki versions. For the latest version of MW used on wikimedia, check the source code of mwn's login method. For the older MediaWiki versions, check the source of mwbot's login method. SInce you talk of the "limitations of nodemw", you might to check out mwn, which I wrote and use, and is a lot more powerful (the caveat is that there's no documentation). –  SD0001  (talk) 04:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The API documentation notes are available here: mw:API:Login. — xaosflux  Talk 19:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Repeated Wikimedia errors
Keep getting an error "Error: 503, Backend fetch failed at Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:20:32 GMT". DuncanHill (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Excluding redirects from search results
I'd like the link in Discontinuation of comments subpages to exclude all #REDIRECTs. (In an ideal world, that search will come up with zero results.)

Could someone please:
 * 1) Fix that link for me, and
 * 2) Document that in Help:Searching so I can look it up next time?

Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:44, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Per this thread and T204089, this seems to not currently be possible. Sam Walton (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am also unaware of a way to do that using CirrusSearch. I quickly threw together https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/48976, which returned 663 results. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 22:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. 662 are zero-length/blanked pages that should probably be redirected to the main talk page.  Only one still has content on it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , : Bots/Requests for approval/AntiCompositeBot 3 --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 19:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikidata short descriptions no longer showing up
see Mitsubishi Mirage and Yoko_Ono as examples I am unable to import the short description from Wikidata either also see Wikipedia_talk:Shortdesc_helper for more details 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (talk) 19:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You can manually import the description if you click on "Wikidata item" in the left toolbar, then copy and paste. The shortdesc helper gadget should be fixed soon; the change came as an unannounced but long-awaited surprise from WMF developers (assuming that they did it on purpose). – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * It shows on some pages, but not others. Hitting F5 does the trick.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 12:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Cluebot III down
Looks like Cluebot III has been down for almost 10 days, so lots of pages have not been archived. The bot's talkpage and the bot owner have been notified, but it's still an issue. Is this something anyone else could help with? Joseph2302 (talk) 17:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 *  Reply - Do you know when Clue Bot III should be fixed? --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Cluebot III is working now.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  18:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 *  Reply -, are you sure Clue Bot III is working? Talk:Killing of George Floyd did not archive this morning.  --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:16, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * well it is editing: Special:Contributions/ClueBot_III, are you only seeing a potential issue on one page? — xaosflux  Talk 13:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not run on my talkpage either. I guess it's just running through a massive backlog at the moment. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 *  Reply - Thank you, I forgot about the potential backlog. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's archived that talkpage now. Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 12:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

"WikiLove", no longer an icon
I see the WikiLove button at the top on user talks is no longer a heart icon but the text "WikiLove". I personally don't like this change because now the button is wider, causing buttons to collapse on smaller screens/windows. How did this happen, and what was the motivation? Nardog (talk) 18:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a bug caused by some changes in the Vector skin, and should be fixed soon. the wub "?!"  18:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh it didn't even occur to me it was unintentional, thanks for the link. Nardog (talk) 18:30, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Scripts do not show up


Hi folks. I currently have three scripts installed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Robby.is.on/common.js: MOSNUM dates", "EngvarB", and "Sources". I'm sure I installed them as suggested by the script's author. Until earlier today, I was frequently using the first two of the scripts. But now MOSNUM dates does not show up and I believe Sources doesn't, either. See screenshot to the right.

I've tried to solve the problem: Anyone with an idea how I can fix this? Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 22:14, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * used latest stable versions of Safari and Firefox on latest stable macOS,
 * removed the scripts from common.js and re-added them,
 * logged out of my Wikipedia account and back in.
 * I refuse to follow a URL-shortened link. Please observe WP:WPSHOT. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, . Thanks for the link with instructions. I've followed them. Robby.is.on (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * uBlock Origin had a bad filter over the weekend that blocked all Javascript; perhaps you are affected. If you are, lookup how to reset and redownload your filters. --Izno (talk) 00:05, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, thanks, . I actually use it on this computer but, as I forgot to mention, I did try deactivating it. I also encountered the problem on a newer computer with latest versions of Safari and Firefox without that particular plugin. Since I posted here, another user reported the problem at User talk:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates so perhaps it's related to changes to the script… Robby.is.on (talk) 00:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I do not think that it is related to the script itself as I used an old version and got the same problem. Keith D (talk) 00:35, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I noticed this last night, but it's down as of 9am UK time here. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 08:13, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * +1 - Definitely been down since 9:30 UK time, I disabled UBlock but it had no effect, Thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 14:21, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 5pm UK time and it's still not working. It was working fine yesterday so doubt it's to do with whatever happened over the weekend... GiantSnowman 16:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , mw.util becomes null at some point. I suspect that this is due to the incorrect function aliasing  by the userscript. To alias a function, you use something like:
 * —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 16:30, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Thanks it works now!  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  17:57, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * - where do you add that script? I've tried my common.js page, but that didn't work. I don't know what UBlock is - has this an impact on it? It was about this time last night that the scripts seem to vanish from the toolbox, if that's any further help. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 19:37, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * it appears your common.js is loading another one of your scripts, that contains this sort of problematic var: User:Lugnuts/script/MOSNUM dates.js. — xaosflux  Talk 19:45, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've tried importing s one but to no avail, I no longer have any brain capacity to figure this out as literally 98% tired. – Davey 2010 Talk 20:42, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I've just done this to uninstall the broken script and then this to install the fix, as per, and it seems to have worked! GiantSnowman 21:07, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It worked!, Hallelujah!, Many thanks for your help (and thanks to everyone else above too). – Davey 2010 Talk 21:17, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Rather than copying the whole code add this    CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  22:11, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have not made any changes to my scripts since July/August. As the problem seems to be recent, I suspect that it may be due to conflict with one or more other scripts that have been loaded alongside them. Known conflicts are known to have existed with AutoEd, for example, or it may be another that I'm not aware of. Best, --  Ohc  ¡digame! 05:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , yes, this is due to a change in core, but that change simply exposed this bug in your script. You cannot alias a function like that without opening up the potential for running into this problem. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I need a little pointer here. Where's the bug? --  Ohc  ¡digame! 14:56, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you see the mention of an "incorrect function" further up? Robby.is.on (talk) 15:00, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Snowed under now. I'll try and fix it at the weekend. --  Ohc  ¡digame! 15:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 👍 Robby.is.on (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That last bit from Captain M does the trick - thank you! And thanks to all the replies & suggestions since last night.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 06:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello all- I am apparently too dim to parse all this. Can anyone tell this French major if there is some simple addition or alteration I can make at User:Eric/common.js to restore the functionality of OhC's script? I throw myself on the mercy of The Pump. Thanks in advance. Eric talk 13:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Try commenting out (or removing) the broken script and replace it by a fixed version on your common.js page – like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Robby.is.on/common.js&diff=983566148&oldid=983365654 Kind, regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the idea, Robby. But I must be missing something, unless the Captain's Testing.js has changed. My common.js edit. Eric talk 16:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I posted a suggestion to your Talk page. Robby.is.on (talk) 17:23, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm glad others are getting things to work, but my scripts still don't show up. I commented out all importScript code, my common.js is nothing but a comment, and I have no scripts that use "var add". I just want my simple scripts at User:Chris the speller/script/ScriptA.js to show up. Any other ideas? Chris the speller   yack  14:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * for a userscript to execute, is has to be in a location that is executed - for example your /common.js file or a skin-specific .js file. If it isn't called from there, it will never load. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:20, 16 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but adding an importScript to /common.js did not help. I have been using /script/ScriptA.js for many years without having to import it via the /common.js file. Something else is going on here. Those two are my only Javascript files. Chris the speller   yack  16:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * {{re|Chris the speller} you have been importing User:Chris the speller/script/ScriptA.js via User:Chris the speller/vector.js for at least 5 years (unless you are not actually using Vector?). — xaosflux  Talk 16:57, 16 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, /vector.js was the answer, thanks for that. It had an importScript for "Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates.js", which I have now commented out. But still my own scripts do not show up. The only difference now is that the recently introduced oversized "Scripts" heading no longer appears in the sidebar. But there is still something wrong. Chris the speller   yack  17:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, never mind, I got it working, mostly by prefixing "mw.util." to "addPortletLink", which I never needed before. By now you all have probably noticed that I'm not a real strong JavaScript programmer. Good luck to all. Chris the speller   yack  20:28, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

My scripts are now fixed. I hope. Thanks to User:TheDJ and User:CAPTAIN MEDUSA. Thanks to all for your forbearance. --  Ohc  ¡digame! 20:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I know I probably missed the memo...
I used to have a link to my personal notepad - I called it "Notes" (as in User:Shearonink/note) at the top of Wikipedia...you know, on that line that has your user-name - Alerts icon - Notices icon - User talk - Sandbox etc. Though the content still exists it has disappeared from being on that line and I have no idea why. And I don't know who to ask other than you FABulous Village Pump:Technical experts. Anyone know what happened to it being there and how I can bring it back to being on that line? It was very handy to jot things down in. Thanks in advance, Shearonink (talk) 04:39, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


 * On your vector.js page, try changing  to  . You may also want to adjust some of the other parameters (see docs). Something like this might be better:   ―cobaltcigs 05:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. You explained it very well to a non-coder and now I know where to look if something like this pops up in the future. I will be able to fix it but any idea why it would have disappeared within the past few days? Was something changed that I missed?... Shearonink (talk) 06:38, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I thought the breakage would have occurred several years ago. mw:Topic:Q29ezrv453a4klb1. ―cobaltcigs 06:55, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , there is a mapping in our Javascript at MediaWiki:Common.js. I do not understand why, but the thread regarding OhC's scripts is probably related in some way. Is that mapping there still good? --Izno (talk) 21:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Marking notifications as read in mobile is still broken?
For quite a while now, when I try to mark as read any notification I receive while on mobile, it shows up as read on mobile, but when viewing on desktop the notification is still there and is marked as unread. This bug has been around for a while now. Is it not going to be fixed anytime soon? It's very annoying that any notification I try to mark as read on mobile still shows up as unread on desktop. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

No index fail?
Could somebody perhaps school or explain why despite the fact that WikiProject_Spam/LinkReports/sharebuyers.co.uk has Template:NOINDEX in it, it still shows up as the third Google result when I search "sharebuyers"? Is that a problem with the template, a problem on Googles end...? Prompted by 2020061810002951. Plz ping me. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * According to Google's documentation, this is because the page is blocked by enwiki's robots.txt (search for " ". Per the comment, this was added in T15398 to prevent this exact scenario. Googlebot won't visit the page because it's on robots.txt, so it never gets a chance to see the NOINDEX. It evidently infers that the result is relevant solely based on the URL and incoming links.
 * Not sure what the best solution is; I suppose you could open a Phabricator ticket asking them to remove the robots.txt exemption, but you'd need to be sure that all the WikiProject Spam reports were noindexed before that, else the problem might become much worse. Vahurzpu (talk) 05:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , sigh, still the same discussion (see User_talk:Beetstra/Archive_20)? Anyway, yes, this search indeed shows that record.  The bot NOINDEXes pages (it adds   already for a long, long time), ánd it is noindexed by our robots.txt (per user:Vahurzpu).  This is, in my opinion, a problem with google who managed to pick up this page in some way, I don't think there is anything we can do on our end, it just has to be removed from the Google db. Dirk Beetstra T  C 13:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Poof!.--Dirk Beetstra T C 06:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Special:GlobalRenameRequest
Sorry if this is a dumb question even for me, but where is the documentation for Special:GlobalRenameRequest? I can't see that it is even fleetingly mentioned in Help:Special page. Among the things I think I ought to know, but don't, are: how does it work? where do the requests go? and how can a request be cancelled? Thanks in advance, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You get some information on mw:Help:Extension:CentralAuth/Global_rename. Ruslik_ Zero 19:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * How did you even get a global renamer privilege if you don't know about those things? <b style="font-family:monospace;font-variant:small-caps;border:0.5px solid #6d6f30;background:linear-gradient(#cdf4ae,#cbedf8);color:#6d6f30">Enjoyer of World</b>💬 13:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Many renamers don't know about the queue as they work for their local venue only. Please be civil. -- <b style="color:black">CptViraj</b> (talk) 12:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There's little information about this on WP:CHU. Request made here goes to m:Special:GlobalRenameQueue (which also receive request from tons of other wiki that ask people to use queue). Only global renamer/steward can reject/accept the request. &#8208;&#8208;1997kB (talk) 03:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Diffs on Mobile Watchlist now loads the full page instead of the diff
I'm using the "advance mode" on my mobile device. Clicking the "diff" button previously resulted in page showing the diff, but now it just loads the full page. The "prev" button on the history page still works correctly and displays the actual "diff", though. Is this problem being tracked or fixed somewhere? Regards, TryKid&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[dubious – discuss] 22:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, being tracked at T265402. the wub "?!"  12:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Special:RecentChanges diff links not working on mobile
Ever since yesterday, the Recent Changes diff links stopped working on mobile. The diff link goes to the page instead of the diff, e.g. 's   link would go to Main Page instead of a diff. This is on both advanced mode and normal mode. Anyone know how to fix this problem? Thanks in advance ―Sportzpikachu <sub style="display:inline-block"> my talk contribs  09:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , this is tracked on Phabricator as T265402. I've merged this section with previous one about the same topic. —⁠andrybak (talk) 09:24, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Mobile website watchlist glitch?
Hello,

I understand that bugs are to be reported on the Phabricator page but I’ve never used it before and the page with the how-to indicated I should ask here first if in doubt.

For some reason, in the last four or five days, when I view my watchlist on mobile (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?hidepreviousrevisions=1&hidecategorization=1&hideWikibase=1&limit=250&days=7&title=Special:Watchlist&watchlistview=feed&filter=all&urlversion=2), when I go to click “diff” to see the difference in edits, it simply takes me to the article’s main page. Meaning at this part-

17 October 2020 (diff | hist) Robert D. Bullard

I select “diff” and then it takes me to the Robert D. Bullard main page, when previously it would take me to the difference in revisions between the two articles. The ‘hist’ option still works as normal. If I go to the history page and manually select to view the differences, it works, so it’s happening with the watchlist link specifically.

I have tried clearing my safari app data and haven’t seen a change. I guess my question is, is this a problem happening only to me, or should I take the steps to report it? Thank you for your patience.

Apathyash (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * your report seems to be the same as these others, already being worked on if so. — xaosflux  Talk 15:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Resolved
This has been resolved and the fix is live now. the wub "?!"  18:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Signatures use style nowrap?
I noticed today that signatures (in the web version, using vector) get. Is the nowrap something new? It sure makes for weird line breaks. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I do not see the same in HTML source. Where is it you're looking? --Izno (talk) 15:58, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting. If I view the HTML source for my comment above, it's:

I noticed today that signatures (in the web version, using vector) get. Is the nowrap something new? It sure makes for weird line breaks. -- <a href="/wiki/User:RoySmith" title="User:RoySmith">RoySmith</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:RoySmith" title="User talk:RoySmith">(talk)</a> 13:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

but if I do "Inspect elements" (in Chrome), I see:

I noticed today that signatures (in the web version, using vector) get. Is the nowrap something new? It sure makes for weird line breaks. -- <a href="/wiki/User:RoySmith" title="User:RoySmith" class="userlink">RoySmith</a> <a href="/wiki/User_talk:RoySmith" title="User talk:RoySmith" class="userlink">(talk)</a> <span class="localcomments" timestamp="1603115100108" title="13:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)" style="font-size: 95%; white-space: nowrap;">9:45 am, Today (UTC−4) (<a href="#" id="reply-link-158" data-original-label="reply">reply</a>)

something must be mucking with the DOM after the inital load. User:Enterprisey/reply-link.js maybe? -- RoySmith (talk) 19:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that would do it. --Izno (talk) 19:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I see it too, in Firefox for Mac, when I am logged in and using Vector. It is not there when I switch to Chrome, where I am not logged in. I can confirm that the complete (nowrapped in Vector) time stamp jumps to a new line for me when I shrink my Firefox window, but when I shrink my (non-Vector, not logged it) Chrome window, the time stamp wraps in segments, as individual "words". – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * TL;DR: It's caused by a gadget, not WP or Vector or a browser. Longer explanation: This appears to be caused by the Preferences &rarr; Gadgets option called "Change UTC-based times and dates, such as those used in signatures, to be relative to local time (documentation)", which uses User:Gary/comments in local time.js to reformat time stamps to your local time instead of displaying them in UTC. The font-size change and nowrap formatting appear to have been in this gadget for many years. I made the formatting go away by deactivating the gadget and reloading the page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Article alerts not working
I am the Current Event WikiProject coordinator. I want to report that the 'Article alerts' isn't working properly. Articles like 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict have a current split discussion and the 'Article Alerts' for the WikiProject didn't make a notification of it. Other articles have discussions happening, but it isn't picking up all of them. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:09, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Usually, those should be reported at WP:AALERTS/BUGS. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:47, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue is mostly that the bot crashed and didn't run yesterday, so I'll give it a kick in the bucket of bolts and see if that fixes it without needing to code a fix. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems to be fixed now. Thanks for the help. :D Elijahandskip (talk) 02:07, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Cantonese Wikipedia subdomain
Hey there! I noted that the subdomain for Cantonese Wikipedia is zh-yue. Personally, I believe that the subdomain should instead be switched to something different, as this current subdomain, although it's existed for years, seems quite out of place and is not fun to type. Perhaps hk. for Hong Kong? I just wanted to pitch this out there to see what others think. Ventrixs (talk) 16:20, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Also I should've stated my rationale haha. zh usually represents pages in Chinese whereas something completely different is used to represent Cantonese pages. I believe that this should be influenced here, a different two letter indicator entirely. Ventrixs (talk) 16:23, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , here isn't the right place to discuss this. This page is meant for technical matters about primarily the English Wikipedia. I suggest starting a discussion in that project or at meta. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 16:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You'll have to take that up with MediaWiki (and perhaps the users of zh-yue.wikipedia.org). IANA lists the IETF language tag   as redundant with a preferred value of   (see the language-subtag-registry file).  Since we are talking about a specific language edition of Wikipedia, the second level domain name ought (in my opinion) be a legitimate language code.  MW apparently disagrees.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:30, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note, yuewiki is a redirect to zh-yuewiki - this is discussed further at T202602. Those interested in follow up on that may want to comment there; there is nothing for the English Wikipedia to do about this though. —  xaosflux  Talk 16:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That is very true, I didn't even think of simply yue. I will be sure to push for these changes to be made elsewhere, where they are probably actually supposed to be pushed for, as I think MW would be more likely to do 'yue' as it simply just makes more sense than using 'zh-yue'. Their current subdomain just makes Cantonese seem like some sort of sublanguage of Mandarin, which it's not haha Ventrixs (talk) 13:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ventrixs, I think that you will want to ask Language committee about this. They will know what's involved in proposing a change. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:54, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-43
<section begin="technews-2020-W43"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * You will be able to read but not to edit the wikis for up to an hour on around 14:00 (UTC). It will probably be shorter than an hour.
 * Octicons-tools.svg In the AbuseFilter extension, the  function will be updated soon so that it does not remove the "space" character. Wikis are advised to wrap all the uses of   with   wherever necessary to keep filters' behavior unchanged. You can use the search function on Special:AbuseFilter to locate its usage.
 * Some gadgets and user-scripts use the HTML div with the ID . This div will be removed soon. Maintainers should replace these uses with either   or  . A list of affected scripts is at the top of T265373.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W43"/> 16:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * About that last item: There are about 500 pages in userspace that contain "jump-to-nav".  Check this list to see whether any of them are yours/your friends.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

"Table within a table" coding
I have configured a table within a table at User:SCHolar44/subpage6.

As shown in the table, I would like to move the "Column 2 heading" up to the column header, and to have a [Show] button to disclose the relevant text (currently present in the form of Lorem ipsum "greeking"). The current "Summary" heading and adjacent button would go.

I would greatly appreciate advice on how to do this.

I retained the "width=40%" line from the code I copied in, but I don't know what it achieves. Again, advice would be appreciated.

Cheers, Simon – <b style="color:#7F007F">SCHolar44</b> 🇦🇺 &#128172; at 15:59, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I tweaked it a bit. You probably don't need a nested table; they are not great for accessibility anyway. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:48, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, Jonesy95! Your use of "hidden begin/end" was useful for me to know.
 * The only thing I need now is to have the [Show] button appear after the word "Summary", on the same line, which again is beyond my capabilities as yet. Can you help?
 * Re your advice that I "probably don't need a nested table; they are not great for accessibility" -- that's one of the reasons I chose it; it will contain my biographical details and I want to keep it low-key. ;-) – Cheers, Simon – <b style="color:#7F007F">SCHolar44</b> 🇦🇺 &#128172;  at 13:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have any more advice. Most of my work with the "hidden" set of templates is with removing them, since article content is generally not supposed to be hidden.
 * Also, you need to fix your signature to subst the current time and date, or just leave it out and the Wikipedia software should add it for you. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed,, please fix your signature as soon as possible. There should be no reason for you to be including those magic words whatsoever. --Izno (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , also please remove the templates from your signature. Thanks. --Izno (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , also please remove the templates from your signature. Thanks. --Izno (talk) 16:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Jonesey95 and Izno. Please let me know if I have not fully implemented your request here → <b style="color:#7F007F">SCHolar44</b> 🇦🇺 &#128172; at 22:44, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You need to removed larger from your signature, per WP:CUSTOMSIG/P. You can use  to achieve the same effect. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:10, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Terrific, Jonesey95! Thank you very much for your patience and advice. Cheers, Simon – <b style="color:#7F007F"; font-size:medium">SCHolar44 🇦🇺</b> 💬 at 03:49, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You have one quote mark too many. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Ah! ... Ahem ... Mmm. Mindful of your noble origins, Red, I can only splutter the Captain Mainwaring Excuse:
 * “Ah! Deliberate error well spotted, Sergeant Wilson!” -- Captain George Mainwaring, OC A Platoon, 1st Walmington-on-Sea Company, Home Guard, March 1940
 * Ever your Humble Servant in Gratitude, <b style="color:#7F007F; font-size:medium">SCHolar44 🇦🇺</b> 💬 at 21:44, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Map Creation Tool
Actually not really the right place here, but I usually don't edit on en-wp, so please forward to the appropriate subpage: During a programming course in C++ some months ago, I had to select a programming project, and chose an old idea, a tool that can create political worldmaps. Well, the tool works, but I could not "finish" it to a "distributable" state, and my skills are not sufficient to develope it further one my own. So, is there a person here that would be interested in it?--Antemister (talk) 21:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Colored cell
Is there a way to remove all colored cells such as in List of Kannada films of 2014? TamilMirchi (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Doing a manual find and replace of "background:#98FB98;" with an empty string would probably work. Preview carefully to ensure that the month colors are not removed; they appear to be consistent among this set of articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:52, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible to add an inputbox into a gallery?
Hi all

I'm working on a tool which is easy to edit for users and have a slightly unusual question. Is there a way of using input box in a gallery under a name?

Basically I want to have a gallery that looks like this

and then have one of these as underneath where it says Articles so that each new image in the gallery can have its own inputbox

I know that there are a couple of ways of doing input boxes with and
 * }

I don't think you will be able to get the inputbox to work inside the magic gallery - so tables may be the way to go here, started mocking up one, but looks like you are already a bit ahead of me above there:


 * — xaosflux  Talk 15:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

thanks very much, I'm 99% of the way there, just one small issue, how do I make the boxes, I just can't make it work, it gets very confused and makes a big long line, I guess I'm missing something from but I'm not sure what... John Cummings (talk) 16:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Break
(All this code is starting to break the VPT). I don't think you should put each button in its OWN table - why not use one table for everything and then just center the table? — xaosflux  Talk 16:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Just to pick a tangential nit,  is deprecated, isn't it? —[  Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 01:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I replaced all the centers above with divs in that last sample. I still don't love all those tables being different, but it's not like this is for an article or the interface. —  xaosflux  Talk 01:53, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi thanks so much for this, the first draft of the tool I'm working on is almost ready here User:John Cummings/sandbox. John Cummings (talk) 15:25, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

One last question, is there a way in the image syntax to make the images line up nicely? Some way of constraining them in a 50px x 50px box?

Thanks again

John Cummings (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That's sort of why I was suggesting you rework this in to a single table, instead of adjacent tables - then you would have a single "row" for the pictures, possibly another row for the captions, and possibly another row for the input boxes. - Then the rows and columns would all be aligned. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:55, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the reason why I'm not doing that already is to make the sections easier to move around using VE, I feel like there must be something I can do with Wikimedia Phabricator logo.svg to make it square... John Cummings (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like this is mostly meant to be viewed once built? I'd give up on trying to do anything fancy with VE unless you really like headaches :D —  xaosflux  Talk 18:04, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the problem you are running in to is that you want to stick a rectangular peg in a square hole, and you can't do that with out a gap. When resizing images, the aspect ratio is always maintained.  You could upload new square images instead. —  xaosflux  Talk 18:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * yes, thanks, I'll upload square images, it will be much less faff. John Cummings (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * @John Cummings, do you want to rearrange the "columns" (maybe put Phabricator last in the row, or Meta first), or do you want to be able to move the individual pieces around all over the page? It's easy to change the order of table columns in the visual editor – just click the top cell, and then choose "Move before" or "Move after" from the dropdown menu.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * exactly, I hadn't realised that VE could do that. One other thing I'd really love is to be able to copy stuff from other people's 'Organisers' and add it to your own. Not really sure how that would work at all, maybe save that for a much later version... John Cummings (talk) 21:03, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Copying between pages in the visual mode is a little trickier, as it's sometimes hard to tell whether you've selected the bit that you actually want (the table cell itself, or only the contents of the cell?). But generally speaking, if you open both the 'source' and 'target' pages in the visual editor, select the thing you want, and paste it into the other page, you should at least be able to see whether you were successful.  (You can also paste wikitext code into the visual editor, and it will convert it for you.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

What happens to Modern skin?
It seems that Modern skin malfunctions that the language list (Čeština, Deutsch, Français, etc) on the left disappears. I have changed the skin to default so that the language list can display properly. --Leiem (talk) 11:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Same problem here. Disabling "Use a compact language list" does not help. --Gengis Gat (talk) 15:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * T266063 opened. — xaosflux  Talk 19:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Now T265747 - this bug should be resolved next week now. — xaosflux  Talk 20:20, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Gengis Gat (talk) 22:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Leiem (talk) 02:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Problem with warning about unreliable sources, please add which source is unreliable
Hi all

This morning I created Alliance of British Drivers and when I saved the page I received the message below. Currently I have no way of knowing which of the references I added is 'bad' which is very frustrating. I don't want to add bad references to Wikipedia but currently I have no way of understanding which one I should remove. Please could someone add this function to this template?

''An automated filter has detected that you are adding a link to a deprecated source, considered generally unreliable after discussion by the community. References to these sources are generally prohibited, especially when other more reliable sources exist. Please cite a more reliable source instead. If the only source you can find for the claims is one of these deprecated sources then you should not add the content in question. Note: There are limited exceptions to this rule (such as when the source itself is the topic being discussed). If you have checked the policy on Wikipedia:Reliable sources and the deprecated source guidance (or checked at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard) and verified that your edit is one of the limited exceptions, then you may resubmit it by clicking "Publish changes" again. Please do not do this unless you have first verified that this specific use of the deprecated source has broad support, especially for biographical articles: deprecated sources are liable to be removed on sight and persistent addition can lead to editing restrictions.''

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 10:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This was a result of edit filter 869, which warns users who add citations to deprecated sources. In this case, the filter was tripped because you added a citation to thisismoney.co.uk, which is another URL for the Daily Mail. There's unfortunately no way to provide further contextual information about what in particular was wrong with an edit in the template. Sam Walton (talk) 10:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much I wasn't aware it was Daily Mail, I've removed it, is there a technical solution to this? Its hard to know what to do when the warning doesn't tell you what you did wrong.John Cummings (talk) 10:26, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like T216001 would be the technical solution but as far as I'm aware the abuse filter is only being maintained by volunteers right now so I don't know how likely work on that is. Sam Walton (talk) 10:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh or I just read the comment there. T174554 might also be the right task for this. Sam Walton (talk) 10:36, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Wmcz
On Help:Interwiki linking, it says that wm followed by two letters link to individual chapters of WMF. Are those local or non-local prefixes? --Gioguch (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "local or non-local"? Ruslik_ Zero 17:24, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The full list of interwiki prefixes understood by this WP is at Special:Interwiki. I assume that the list is intended to be the same on the other wikis. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:44, 15 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Multiple prefixes are resolved from left to right, according to rules "local" to each step, if that's what you mean. If you link to something wacky like cs:q:fr:de:commons:w:it:wikt:es:sv:w:ca:en:wp:vpt you'll end up right back here, because  is defined here to mean "goto Czech Wikipedia",   is defined on the Czech Wikipedia to mean "goto Czech Wikiquote",   is defined on Czech Wikiquote to mean "goto French Wikiquote", and so on. While  and fr:q: have identical results, it's because we're on a well-configured grid of wikis, and not due to any general rule. You could, at your own risk, also jump through a series of non-WMF wikis, if suitable prefixes exist on each. ―cobaltcigs 00:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Wait, you mean you can make one of these out of Wikilink prefixes? Who knew? davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

<poem style="font-style:italic; margin-left: 4.8em;">On the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me: 1 cup. On the second day of Christmas, Arbcom gave me a cease-and-desist notice.
 * ―cobaltcigs 15:12, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Email unsubscribed bug
I just received two notifications in quick succession, both reading Your registered email address [my email] has been unsubscribed due to multiple message delivery failures. You can verify your email address again. When I click through to that, it says it's already sent a confirmation code, but I don't have anything in my inbox other than the normal emails I get for notifications.

This appears to be the same issue experienced a few weeks ago, and possibly  as well. I'm trying removing and re-adding my email address, but this issue is severing emails from accounts, which seems fairly concerning as far as account security goes. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:14, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That can happen due to the server handling your email being busy or whatever. It's likely that whatever company supports the server will deny there is any problem, but there can be. The simplest is to ignore it and try again after a few hours, possibly 24 hours. You need to also find the email spam folder and check that it does not hold anything relevant. Johnuniq (talk) 01:30, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, so I guess it's just my ISP living up to its reputation. :/ &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:34, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Encountering an error when trying to edit my Watchlist
My Watchlist is big. Too big. 21,820 entries. So it thought I should edit it to shrink it. Clicked on Edit your list of watched pages, and got - Internal error [9f8d036a-a25a-44ff-95a0-d6558795037d] 2020-10-22 02:49:10: Fatal exception of type "WMFTimeoutException". Tried it again. Got the same message but with a different code in the square brackets. Ideas? HiLo48 (talk) 02:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Try Special:EditWatchlist/raw. If it works, great, if it doesn't, the error codes should be helpful to someone who knows how to interpret them. You can also visit pages you know are on your watchlist and unwatch them one at a time.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  03:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * To expand on that, edit the raw list, click in the box with the list, then Ctrl-A then Ctrl-C to select all and copy. Then paste that into a text editor and save a copy to a file on your computer. Keep that as a backup in case you ever want to find something you had watched. You now need to work out how to prune the list. You could just empty it (press Delete after Ctrl-A) and save, or keep your subpages or use something more clever to delete some items such as all rows with "User:". Johnuniq (talk) 04:03, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks folks. I did simple edit of the raw list, removing IP Users and a few other obvious ones en masse. Reduced it to 8,977. Much better. And I can now edit using the tool on my Watchlist page. Will keep at it. HiLo48 (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

coordinates grouped by category
GeoGroup provides a link to a map with blue pointers for all the sets of coordinates on a page and a legend that lists the name of each set of coordinates. I have asked at Template talk:GeoGroup whether there is a way to group them by status/category in the legend, and display each group with a distinct colour. This would be useful for things such as proposed/operating/decommissioned on pages such as lists of power stations or height ranges on lists of buildings. Is there a template/tool that can do something like this? Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 13:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Should MediaWiki:Newpages-summary mention Special:NewPagesFeed?
On Special:RecentChanges, for example, there is a big header listing all of the alternate ways that you can look at recent changes -- but on Special:NewPages there's nothing. It seems to me like there ought to be some mention of Special:NewPagesFeed, which is currently accessible only through a roundabout way of following a link to New pages patrol and clicking on the header link to the newpagefeed there. jp×g 03:05, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

How to add a div id based on a counter
Is it possible to assign/rename a div id based on a counter using TemplateStyles? I'm looking to add an anchor to each thumbimage via this style.css (implemented at this test page) with each ID numbered using the figure-n-counter parameter. thanks in advance of any advice/assistance/ T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 04:11, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No, IDs cannot be changed in CSS, only by JavaScript. And even that I guess most wouldn't do. Lua may be able to do what you want if you hand-roll the thumbing of the images (i.e., use wiki syntax to display an image and then "thumb" it using Lua). That solution of course would be brittle and possibly would not display as expected into the future. --Izno (talk) 07:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing "the First" redirects
Could someone create a list of all pages with the word "I" (upper case) as a non-first word, where no parallel page "the First" exists? 217.132.248.209 (talk) 19:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please clarify your request. I assume you mean something like Ramesses I and not The King and I? And is there even consensus to redirect Ramesses the First to Ramesses I ? RudolfRed (talk) 22:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * IP, you are going to get a list of 13,000+ articles that includes things like How I Met Your Mother, most likely. That search returns a lot of redirects, though, and someone over at Request a query might be able to exclude redirects for you. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:25, 22 October 2020 (UTC)


 * [ I don't see why not].
 * Also I think you'd actually want to filter for titles where:
 * The title contains a (for the sake of simplicity, potentially valid) Roman numeral (something \b[MDCLXVI]+\b), AND:
 * This Roman numeral either is:
 * ( At the end of the title, OR:
 * Immediately followed by opening parentheses, or the word "of", or a comma, or any other pattern that might be common for disambiguating royalty but unusual after "I" as a pronoun. )
 * AND The word prior to the Roman numeral consists of a capital letter followed by lowercase letters (but does not necessarily match \b[A-Z][a-z]+\b, due to diacritics).
 * False positives would be greatly reduced without losing much, but you'd still catch a few weird ones where the pronoun follows a verb, which (unlike "and") does get capitalized in song titles like "It Was I". This is probably not common enough to bother blacklisting specific words. ―cobaltcigs 11:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Template:FAQ
Is there similar template which would allow us to add "recommendation"? There is Template:FAQ but I have no particular question and answer but I would like to mention something, additional explanation for talk page. It would be useful in articles which are often moved from correct to incorrect tittles. Something similar to Template:Correct title but for talkpage. Eurohunter (talk) 14:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think could work. Also check out  and . –  Anne drew  14:40, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Just use notice. If it keeps happening, and there is already a consensus for a certain title, seek move protection. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Eurohunter (talk) 18:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Private replication?
Would it be technically possible, under present offerings and available data, for a private replication of Wikipedia (all languages) maintained off-site outside the WMF data center? It would be similar to Toolforge's replication server where the database has a relatively short update lag. -- Green  C  18:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That is not a service that is presently offered. You could maybe do it yourself by starting with a database dump and then using eventstreams to keep it up to date. ST47 (talk) 01:33, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thank you. -- Green  C  03:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Order of fields on top
Is there a way to configure the order of fields on the top right? I believe previously watchlist and contributions were to the left of preferences and sandbox. Contributions is something I use often, and since it is now next to Log out, I sometimes accidentally click on Log out - which is a total disaster, because I get logged out of all devices, and it costs me half an our to login again. If I had sandbox or preferences next to Log out, it would have been much safer.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:54, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A dumb workaround could be to create a second Contributions link called "My Edits" or something like that, to the right of the Sandbox link. Look at my vector.js for "Add link at top for Tools page" to see how to do it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:22, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There's also a script to confirm logouts by Writ Keeper, as discussed in this village pump thread. Graham 87 04:50, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks to both of you, both solutions should work. I installed the logout confirmation for the time being, will see how convenient it is.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:49, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Sandbox was never to the right of either watchlist or contributions, but it's possible that prefs was between contribs and logout at some point. When the sandbox link was first added, it was the leftmost link; but I don't recall whether it took up its present position (between talk and prefs) before or after the notifications icons were added. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 10:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Add this line to your common.js $('#pt-logout').hide; // remove the logout link — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:17, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Also bookmark Special:Logout or add the link to your user page, so you could log out if you really need to. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Some tracking categories that don't exist
Why isn't there a category that contains all archives of all talk pages (there used to be one) or one that contains all templates without documentation (there is a category named Category:Templates with missing or incorrect documentation, but it is only manually populated)? JsfasdF252 (talk) 13:35, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * To automatically put templates into such a category would require changes to the software or a bot to check for missing documentation. I can't think of an effective way to check for incorrect documentation. Given that the biggest bang for the buck is documenting more frequently used templates, relying on manual requests for documentation is probably better than just putting every single template without documentation into a single category.
 * Is there some task you are interested in doing with the archives for every single talk page? You can find those following a standard naming convention with a database query (not my area of expertise but someone else here will know the details). isaacl (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Ombuds vs Ombudsman?
Functionaries links to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:GlobalUsers&group=ombudsman, which produces no output. It looks like the right group name should be ombuds, not ombudsman. Is this something that got changed at some point in history and the template just never got updated? -- RoySmith (talk) 16:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, there was an name change in June of this year from Ombudsman to Ombuds, discussed here.--Snaevar (talk) 18:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Links updated —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 21:12, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

"Musical scores are temporarily disabled" appearing on music pages
I don't know if this is a thing that has been happening recently, but I've never seen it before: on some music pages, including the official pages for talking about music notation markup code in Wikipedia itself, instead of the score snippets that usually appear, I'm only seeing a box containing "Musical scores are temporarily disabled". This does not happen for all scores on the page, for instance on the page for Mozart's Symphony No. 40, snippets for movements 2 and 3 appear normally, but movements 1 and 4 have this error message. It's not an issue with my browser or internet connection either, since it happens in Firefox and Chrome on my PC over ethernet, and it also happens in Safari on my phone over cellular data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.180.100.205 (talk) 07:44, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * See T257066. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

infobox scientist
What is the problem with Gertrude Nye Dorry's infobox? Her thesis is now shown in the article. Ali Pirhayati (talk) 14:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The template Infobox scientist wasn't showing the thesis section for the thesis (only for thesis1 and/or thesis2). The example in Gertrude Nye Dorry could be fixed by using thesis1, thesis1_url and thesis1_year, but I've modificed the infobox template and it now works. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:46, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Reftoolbar 2.0 Auto-format
I believe I'm using Reftoolbar 2.0. There is a little icon in the upper left on it that looks like a whisk broom. Always before, when I clicked on that, it put dashes in an ISBN, such as:


 * isbn=9789882208902

The tool is still on the toolbar. But as of today when I click it – on either Firefox or Chrome – it doesn't do anything. And it tends to get very faint when I click on it. If I refresh the page, I can see it again. But it still doesn't do anything. I've tried several ISBNs as a test and nothing happens. Is someone working on this tool at the moment? I think it worked earlier in the day. — Maile (talk) 22:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Never mind. It seems the tool doesn't like the one particular ISBN above, but it is otherwise working as normal. — Maile  (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox plurality
At Infobox newspaper, recently observed that, since some newspapers have multiple managing editors, the maneditor parameter could display as Managing editor(s) instead of Managing editor. I think it's cleaner to not have to use the (s) formulation, so we set it up so that the label will display as Managing editor when maneditor is used and Managing editors when maneditors is used.

However, we're now looking at some of the other parameters, such as owner (with alias owners), which has displayed as Owner(s) for years. Changing this to work similarly to the managing editor parameter could potentially introduce some minor errors: if someone previously used owner for a plural, they would need to switch to using owners instead to get the plurality right, and I don't think we'd have any way of notifying pages that'd be affected. On the flip side, the change would allow the vast majority of newspapers with a singular owner to avoid the unsightly (s), and any pages displaying incorrectly would presumably eventually be fixed.

I bring this up here because this same issue applies to tons and tons of infobox templates, from Conviction(s) at Infobox criminal to Spouse(s) at Infobox person. We discussed the latter two months ago but haven't taken any action from it yet. Detect singular is available and is used on templates like Infobox settlement, but has a few limitations/bugs.

The extremely widespread applicability makes this topic worth discussing, imo (it would of course be extremely nitpicky at the level of an individual article). So, what approach do you all think we should take here? Is the tradeoff of potentially introducing the incorrect plurality to some existing pages worth it for setting up a better way to handle plurality that'll allow us to avoid having to use (s) into perpetuity? Or should we pursue the more technical route and try to get Detect singular working well enough to handle all of this for us automatically? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 07:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC)


 * As you say above, there is a common pattern that we should handle in some generic way. How about a new template something like plural?
 * For example: the Infobox newspaper template has
 * which could be replaced with:
 * The template could complain if both owner/owners are defined (and perhaps also if neither is defined, although that would be valid in some cases). We then might use Detect singular to generate a tracking category should it think that owners is singular or owner is a list. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:38, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Would something like Singular and plural work, or could be adapted to do this? Also, I am finding singular owners while using the plural "owners" in the template. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Singular and plural looks like it's designed for when the link for Apples goes somewhere different than the one for Apple. That's a somewhat different purpose than what we're looking at here. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the number of users who will forget to change the parameter name when adding a second value is significant. I'm a highly-detail-picky developer and it seems like a mistake would easily make. I don't see anything wrong with the (s) construct in the label. Even if the template code could figure out from the value whether to pluralize the label or not, I don't think it's worth the extra processing time, code maintenance, etc. —[  Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 05:39, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Would something like Singular and plural work, or could be adapted to do this? Also, I am finding singular owners while using the plural "owners" in the template. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Singular and plural looks like it's designed for when the link for Apples goes somewhere different than the one for Apple. That's a somewhat different purpose than what we're looking at here. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the number of users who will forget to change the parameter name when adding a second value is significant. I'm a highly-detail-picky developer and it seems like a mistake would easily make. I don't see anything wrong with the (s) construct in the label. Even if the template code could figure out from the value whether to pluralize the label or not, I don't think it's worth the extra processing time, code maintenance, etc. —[  Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 05:39, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-44
<section begin="technews-2020-W44"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems
 * You will be able to read but not to edit the wikis for up to an hour on October 27 around 14:00 (UTC). It will probably be shorter than an hour.
 * Last week, links to "diffs" from mobile watchlists and recentchanges were linking to page-revisions instead of diffs. This has now been fixed.

Changes later this week
 * There is no new MediaWiki version this week.

Future changes
 * Since the introduction of the interface administrators user group in 2018, administrators couldn’t view the deleted history of CSS/JS pages. Now they can.
 * There was a problem with the Change Tags. The software would apply the "" tag to any page actions such as page-protection changes if they came directly after a reverted edit. This has now been fixed for new edits.
 * The Reply tool will be offered as an opt-in Beta Feature on most Wikipedias in November. Another announcement will be made once the date is finalized.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W44"/> 17:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

'Geo: ...' doesn't link
Compare
 * Geo: Geography and Environment
 * Geo: Geography and Environment
 * Geo: Geography and Environment
 * Geo: Geography and Environment

What gives? AFAICT 'Geo:' isn't an interwiki thing, and even if it were, it would not render this way. But somehow links? What's going on here? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:00, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Geo:blablabla
 * Geo:blablabla
 * It's a URI similar to http:, see geo URI scheme, so it formats the same way as a web link does in WikiCode:
 * Bare:  -> Geo:blablablah
 * With a single set of square brackets:  -> [Geo:blablablah]
 * With a single set of square brackets a space and a word:  -> [Geo:blablablah Blah]
 * With two sets of square brackets (the wrong way!):  -> Geo:blablablah
 * By the way,  will display as a wikilink, thanks to the : in the front: anything:everything:you:can:think:of.
 * davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  00:04, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, I think it is part of the  library that we have loaded taking that over in the parser.  You can open a phab ticket to further explain maybe, because I can't find wiki-specific documentation on it. —  xaosflux  Talk 00:12, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * may have more info on if this is part of GeoData extension as well? — xaosflux  Talk 00:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the ping MaxSem, think I've answered this below now. — xaosflux  Talk 00:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * this appears to be because "geo:" is a $wgUrlProtocol so it is reserved. — xaosflux  Talk 00:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Coordinates in search results
When using our search system coordinates show up in the search results:...i.e when searching a country you get.....

"Coordinates: 60°N 110°W﻿ / ﻿60°N 110°W﻿ / 60; -110 Canada is a country in the northern...."

Should we be omitting Template:Coord in our search results? Seems to be over data for no reason.-- Moxy 🍁 00:20, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What was your search term? Alternatively, the URL of the search results page would be helpful. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Happens to me with this. —[ Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 01:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

AbuseFilter notice: rmspecials will no longer remove whitespace when used in filters
,

Apologies if you are not reading this message in your native language. .

We are making a change to the AbuseFilter extension, which may impact the behavior of some existing filters. The  function currently removes spaces in addition to special characters. We will change it such that it will only remove special characters. The existing  can be used to remove spaces whenever applicable.

As reported on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P12854 we believe at least one filter on your wiki has been identified to use the  function. Please consider updating these filters by wrapping  inside   like this:

We need you to update the relevant filters within 2 weeks of this notice. If one of the community members with proper access is volunteering to take this on, we ask them to please respond below and notify User:Huji in their response or in the edit summary. If we don't hear back from you within 2 weeks, Huji will edit the relevant filters on your wiki per the global abuse filter maintainer policy, to ensure the filters won't break once the change is implemented. Thank you for your consideration!

Best regards,

--User:Huji (m:User talk:Huji) 23:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC), sent via MediaWiki message delivery


 * , message acknowledged, I think everything is taken care of on enwiki (I made the requested changes a week or so ago). Thank you for the notification. GeneralNotability (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks! huji— TALK 01:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Random article may not be totally random.
Sometimes when I'm bored I just come to Wikipedia and click "random article." Probably on average once a week, although with much variance -- sometimes several times in one week, other times not at all for months.

Today I clicked "random article" and came up with the article on Caryocolum leucothoracellum. As soon as I saw it, I recognized this as an article I read a couple weeks ago. I suppose I could be wrong about it, but I'm moderately certain. It's not the name I remembered (although I did remember that it was a moth with a long-ish name) but the range. I'm a geography geek, and when I read a list of countries I visualize them as if on a map. That visual stays with me after the names are gone.

Anyway, I'm certain that I read this article very recently, as in "within the last couple of weeks." With over six million articles on Wikipedia, it seems to me the odds are enormous against hitting the same one twice in a small number of attempts.

This is not a complaint in the traditional sense. I'm not harmed in any way by reading an article twice. I'm not particularly bothered, offended, irritated, or anything like that. It just made me wonder how robust is the randomness of the "random article" function? Does it deserve to be reviewed?

I can't supply much in the way of technical data. I use Chrome and Firefox interchangeably. Today I'm using Chrome, but I can't say for sure which I was using last time I read this article. But it doesn't seem that this would be a user-side issue, anyway.

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong areas. I did browse the site for some time looking for a more appropriate place to post this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:54A6:7800:CA9:7F10:D708:558F (talk) 02:30, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is pretty interesting. If this gets moved somewhere, someone please notify me because I want to follow this. First of all I would hope that the function is not entirely random, such as to exclude potentially vulgar or controversial topics. IP editor, can you confirm for us if you indeed read the same article in the last month? You should be able to check your web page history on your browsers. If it was not the same article but an article about another moth, that would still be interesting. Also, how many random articles would you estimate you had loaded in the time between these two articles? Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * See this technical FAQ entry. Graham 87 04:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Also to note that while it is improbable it does not mean it is impossible. If enough people asked two friends to pick a random number between 1 and 6 million, eventually you'll find a group who pick the same number.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 09:02, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Its not random. See T200703 (and mw:Manual:Random_page) Christian75 (talk) 13:49, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Need help with Old XfD multi
Way back in 2008 this happened, and then I made it worse when I closed the 2nd AfD. I'm not up on the details of how Old XfD multi is supposed to work. Could somebody who knows that better please take a look? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 14:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I thought subpages were disabled in category namespace
There is a Wikipedia category named Wikipedia naming conventions/Transportation, which is a subpage of Wikipedia naming conventions. This is contrary to WP:SUBPAGE's claim about subpages being disabled in category namespace. Is this a bug or did somebody forget to disable subpages for categories? JsfasdF252 (talk) 18:25, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Or is WP:Subpages wrong? :) --Izno (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The default is to allow sub-pages for category talk but not for category pages - see the software default. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ... and on EN wiki, namespace 8 (MediaWiki) is set to not allow subpages — see current configuration — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Flipping the order of a table
Per WP:SALORDER, if a table is ordered chronologically, it should start with the oldest entry at the top and have the newest entry at the bottom. I often discover lists that use the reverse order, as I assume people think readers are more likely to want to see the most recent entries than the oldest. Nevertheless, this is against Wikipedia's guidelines for stand-alone lists. The last one of these that I came across was List of Wales national rugby union team results, which has 731 entries. I would like to flip the order of the table, but due to its size, this would be very labour-intensive. Therefore I would like to ask if there is any way to perform this task quickly and easily? Any tips would be gratefully received. – PeeJay 14:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I just made the table sortable, which is an instant solution if not actually answering your question. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that definitely isn't the solution I was looking for. The table should be in the correct order to start with and not require sortability. – PeeJay 10:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think there is an offwiki tool specifically for this, but I don't have it to hand. VisualEditor can do this too with the use of Excel/LibreOffice (copy from VE, paste into Excel, sort the table, copy from Excel, paste back into VE). That will preserve the values, but I do not know about any styles, classes, or other attributes. --Izno (talk) 15:10, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Izno, I'll give it a go. – PeeJay 10:31, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Nope, didn't work. Good idea though. Guess I'll just have to go through all 731 entries and reverse the table manually. – PeeJay 18:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Tracking category page without (empty)
Would there be a way to make a category page (that would be linked to by the main tracking category page) that only listed sub-categories that were full? Example: In Category:Infoboxes with unknown parameters there are numerous subcategories that are. It makes it a little hard to find subcategories that aren't empty when looking through the wall of text. It would be easier to go through if only non-empty subcategories were listed (on a separate linked-to page). Firestarforever (talk) 17:44, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There's probably a way to display only the non-0 categories with WP:Petscan and definitely a way with WP:Quarry. Consider a request at WP:RAQ. --Izno (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You could do a find on the page for " P)". – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I put together a scraper here, if anyone's interested (excuse the messy code). Problem solved. Firestarforever (talk) 01:47, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If somebody would be willing to file a request, I think that the devs could modify the mediawiki software in such a way that the subcategory entries on a category page are given one of two different classes - one to denote empty, the other to denote not-empty. Then we could use user CSS to hide one set or the other, as desired. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * T266597 — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:55, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

References as a right hand panel
Several academic journals put the references in a panel on the right which scrolls to the correct one when clicked. Is there a way to do this via a custom style.css or js solution? Examples: I've previously made v:Template:Sliding_right_TOC that can do something similar for long TOCs (example of use), but has a few limitations: Any ideas for something a bit better coded that would dork for references? T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 01:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04669-9
 * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/prot.25679
 * Has to be at the top of the article, so couldn't be used for references
 * Contains an open-ended div for the rest of the page content, which is bad practice generally, and prevent visualeditor from working.

Edit conflict
I head many editors complaining about losing what they wrote due to edit conflicts.

Friendly advice: use Firefox, both on smartphone and on the computer. It works best, you may even go back in case of edit conflicts and copy/paste what you wrote previously. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:53, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the software already alert editors that there was an edit conflict, and temporarily saves the page in a separate text field as if they managed to publish it? Edit conflict "pages" should also allow users to piecemeal their edits with other editors' if they're using the visual editor and/or the 2017 wikitext editor new wikitext mode (beta feature). — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  18:00, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know about that. I only use source text editing. I don't see a button for visual editor. I don't need it, anyway. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:12, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I misspoke. It's a beta feature called "New wikitext mode" that is compatible with two-column edit conflict resolution. Amended my statement above. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  18:18, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

template:Cite wikisource removes all apostrophes
This makes it impossible to link to titles containing apostrophes. For example,  incorrectly links to Uncle Toms Cabin instead of Uncle Tom's Cabin. --by Huhu9001 (talk) at 16:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

. --by Huhu9001 (talk) at 16:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It probably makes sense to have this discussion at a more relevant talk page. I did a little troubleshooting, and the root of the problem may be in the CS1 modules, so I posted at the talk page for Citation Style 1. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

PROPOSAL: Allow whitelisted pages to exceed Wikipedia's technical limits
There are good reasons for particular pages to exceed Template limits and other limits.

Recent examples include administrative and administrative-archive pages that use revisions extensively or which use backlog status, and some list-type pages that use ill, cfb link, or football kit extensively hit the expensive parser function call limit. Some very long, heavily-referenced articles hit the post expansion include size limit (several COVID- and US-2020-election-related pages are over the limit now).

Sometimes, as with sports lists that used flag extensively, the PEIS limit can be fixed by creating modules, like Module:Flagg. That doesn't always get a page below the limit though.

I recommend that the Wikimedia software be changed to allow whitelisted pages to have double the usual limits. I'm flexible on the "double" but it should be at least 1.5x but probably less than 3x. This whitelist would of course need to be on a fully- or perhaps template-editor-protected page. Note that pages that are above the normal limits should still be put in maintenance categories so they can be reduced where feasible (see Special:TrackingCategories). Pages should only be on the whitelist if there is no other good option. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  16:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Support - Allow whitelisted pages to exceed Wikipedia's technical limits

 * 1) Support as the initial proponent.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  16:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Support as a temporary solution: I think it would make more sense to abandon these limits entirely and to instead improve (modernize) the Mediawiki software so that reference-templates and/or transclusions don't cause a high server load and long load-times and add ways to better display long articles and make them more accessible, navigable and useful.
 * The Post-expand include size limit seems to be due to the long Transclusion expansion time. I have detailed my research into this problem here . So far I have not received an answer what the main underlying problem is (neither there nor at this code issue at phabricator) – if anybody here knows, please leave a comment.
 * This has been a substantial problem at, for example, many COVID19-related articles (e.g. COVID-19 pandemic in Japan) and 2020 in science (now fractured and incomplete which has a few disadvantages; note that most content is just text/wikilinks and images should lazy-load).
 * I partially agree with Izno's oppose and Headbomb's neutral: imo whitelisting would add unneeded resource-/workload/complexity. But it might be good way to test this out before allowing it for all pages, might not require as much resources/work as expected, could be built into the current review-mechanism and would be better than the current state. --Prototyperspective (talk) 21:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Oppose - Allow whitelisted pages to exceed Wikipedia's technical limits

 * 1) Not worth the additional complexity. This is one of those ideas that maybe should not be all votey. --Izno (talk) 21:14, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong oppose - There is no point to this. There are not any articles that need to come close to exceeding technical limits. It's a lazy response to articles which are too large. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 3) This would create a security threat as bad actors could exploit the whitelisting to lock up our servers. Also just not worthwhile when the articles can (and should) be split. — Wug·a·po·des​ 00:44, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose:  Expensive functions are, well, expensive.  It takes server load to run expensive parser calls, especially several hundred of them.  There probably are other solutions and workarounds like caching that can fix the problem, but this seems to be a brave idea.  Aasim (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Neutral - Allow whitelisted pages to exceed Wikipedia's technical limits

 * 1) Support in principle, this would be useful on a handful of pages. In practice, do we really want to devote WMF resources to handle a handful of pages? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments - Allow whitelisted pages to exceed Wikipedia's technical limits

 * A major consideration would be "how easy is this to abuse"? Is it likely that someone would cherry-pick pages with "larger limits" and use that to launch a denial-of-service attack?  If the "higher limits" are reasonable, I don't think this will be a major issue.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  16:36, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please open a phab ticket. It's pointless to discuss this here if MediaWiki developers are unwilling to implement it (see WP:CONEXCEPT). – SD0001  (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That will ultimately have to happen, but I want to get a sense of whether it's wanted by the community or not before I bother to open a ticket. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * in this case - it needs to be wanted by the developer community or its not going to happen, we didn't ask for it to be in place it was foisted upon us. — xaosflux  Talk 20:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Developers might be interested in which solutions have been proposed and the usefulness of suggested changes. Some solutions to the underlying problem/s (whitelisting being 1 of those) could make Wikipedia load much faster, substantially reduce server-load and costs, allow for hosting more content, help editors struggling and using workarounds to maintain articles (such as COVID19-related ones) and allow for later modernizations of WP via additions of otherwise commonplace features etc. --Prototyperspective (talk) 14:20, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What exactly would a whitelist do? Suppress an error message? The error would still occur, the templates would still not be expanded, nothing would be gained. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it wouldn't. The idea is that if a page IS on the whitelist, the Wikimedia software would refer to a different, higher, limit when checking the limits.  You would have, say, two limits for "expensive parser functions" - 500 for pages not on the whitelist, and a higher number, say, 1000, for pages on it.  Similar with other limits.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  23:48, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Well "technical limit" means "technical limit". Of course, it's possible to raise the limit, but that's not open to voting and so this discussion is not actually useful. What would be better use of time is to open a phabriactor task with detailed argument which shows understanding of the implications and why raising the limit is feasible and worthwhile at the same time. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No. I hope no developer will implement this proposal. The proper solution is to fix performance of local templates, not to jeopardize service availability by putting random loopholes in. --Malyacko (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * @User:Malyacko: Agree, but it doesn't seem like this is getting done and this proposal could be a good improvised temporary solution until it is. I have asked about what you described in a code issue at phabricator as well as, with more details, at talk:Template limits and so far haven't received any answer about what the root problems are or any indications of somebody of the WMF or of the current devs willing to resolve the underlying problem. --Prototyperspective (talk) 11:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Without any official WMF buy-in, this is a pointless proposal. Also, any discussion should take on on Phabricator, and not on VPT (I'm pretty sure the WMF devs don't monitor this page).  -  F ASTILY   04:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What are some examples of pages that need this? Is there no local hack that can be used to get around it (eg, do modules contribute to that? I could've sworn I read some kind of hack that involved modules for a similar issue? perhaps making it up), or performance improvements that can be made to those templates? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I listed 2 examples in my comment above: COVID-19 pandemic in Japan and 2020 in science. There's also a category of pages which exceeded these limits and it contained a fair amount of articles despite editors being forced to implement workarounds. Many other COVID19-related articles were also affected.
 * One workaround which could be used, and I think is often used, is to remove references or to stop using reference-templates (like {{cite journal|... ) as these cause the longest "Transclusion expansion time". I don't think that this a good solution: usually most references are useful, required and important and using reference templates makes the references more convenient, machine-readable and formatted better.
 * Performance-improvements to the way templates and alike are used is exactly what I was proposing in the discussion also linked in my comment above as well as in the phabricator issue. (However, I'm still not entirely sure if the problem is what I think it is – and hence whether or not the suggested solution would make sense – as no developer or WMF person has yet answered my questions.) --Prototyperspective (talk) 15:37, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In those cases where references are causing template loading issues, that indicates the article is too long and should be split. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It may indicate that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the case. Whitelisting instead of raising or removing those artificial limits for all pages may better facilitate attempts to keep the relevant articles shorter plus not implementing workarounds such as removing references and/or reference-templates.
 * Furthermore, there could also be other (imo long-overdue and otherwise very commonplace) technical features to keep articles short even though they are on one page (and not inappropriately split for the sake of it) – such as not loading/fetching collapsed tables and statistics until the [show]-button is pressed (I think content such as this is partly what caused many COVID19-related articles to exceed these limits). --Prototyperspective (talk) 09:28, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Template:COVID-19 pandemic data is up to 333 references. For a single template. And it is a template that is no longer needed. It is in only one article: COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory.
 * Template:COVID-19 pandemic death rates is also in that article. It has more info (such as death rates by country), and is from a single source: Johns Hopkins University, Coronavirus Resource Center.
 * The table with 333 references should be removed from the article. It is regularly out of date compared to the John Hopkins table. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You make it sound like this was these articles had with the template limits and even that this would be the only problem this proposal is about. It's not. And the bold-formatting isn't appropriate imo.
 * Furthermore, these references probably were useful for the template but maybe they should have been displayed separately from the article's other templates (e.g. only show when the template is uncollapsed but not show when its state is collapsed).
 * Should we source information from one single private research organization instead of multiple sources due to artificial, and imo outdated, limits? I don't think we should for the sake of it but only when it is due. If, in this case, they have higher quality data than the respective sources this still wasn't the case earlier. But again: this wasn't the only thing COVID19-related articles had that made the artificial limit become a problem. Here you can see some, but not all, of the articles which have problems with the template-limits. --Prototyperspective (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * undent: I have already provided the obvious work around for the COVID cases, which is to {{em|not}} transclude the table references directly into all of its targets (i.e., make the last table column d). That would remove some 300 references from each and every article those tables are transcluded to. It is pathological anyway and should not be driving software changes. I have so far seen one case where the limits might reasonably be raised or transclusion worked on in any meaningful fashion, and it's not even on Wikipedia, it's Wikisource. If you can find a case where the limit must be raised, I will be pleasantly surprised, but in almost every other case there is a workaround sufficient to meet both policy and guideline. --Izno (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * An example that may something like this might be useful for is {{tlx|Preloaddraft}}, which is used on some redlink lists for editathons in the WP: namespace (uses preload function to create a skeleton article with sections and infobox etc). Such lists can be very long, but viewed infrequently, so the load on techincal infrustructure wouldn't be great. I don't know aboutt the broader implelications in articlespace, so have left as a comment rather than a vote. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo){{sup|talk}} 04:01, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Possible to search for revisions by tags?
I asked this over at the Help Desk a while back with no response. The original question: — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 )  23:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * can you explain a little bit more, AFAIK you can't search "revisions" at all - much less with tag filters. — xaosflux  Talk 00:11, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , ah I see.
 * I'm looking at the "tag filter" field, which is where I assume revisions can be filtered by tags. I'm not sure how to properly use it, as I tried typing in "visual edit" on a page where one of the revisions was tagged with "visual edit" with no results coming out. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  00:46, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If by "on a page" you mean to a specific page, then add tagfilter to the query string: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&action=history&tagfilter=visualeditor. If you don't mind being restricted to the last 30 days, you can search without restriction to a specific page by adding it to Special:Recentchanges: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=500&days=30&tagfilter=visualeditor.  If you're not looking for a specific page and need older revisions, it can be done, but it's much less straightforward. —Cryptic 00:48, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the info. So it's only possible to search for tags at most in the last 30 days and last 500 edits for a specific page without going down a rabbit hole?
 * And from what I understand, this doesn't work? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  18:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Either for a specific page using action=history, or for the last 30 days and last 500 edits through Special:Recentchanges. For non-recent edits not limited to a specific page, you need something like query/49429.Where there is a "Tag filter" box in the interface, it should work, but you need to paste in the tag name from the first column of Special:Tags, not what it actually appears as in page histories (which is the second column). —Cryptic 19:00, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * . Thanks so much for pointing that out, . This will make my workshopping way easier. Thanks for all the help! — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  19:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it also be possible to search for two different tags at the same time? E.g., I want to see the revisions on a single page that either used the 2017 wikitext editor or the visual editor, not necessarily together. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  19:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, Recentchanges seems to support that if you separate the tag names with a | |visualeditor, but history doesn't |visualeditor. It's easy to build a query to do it, though, once you have a concrete request. —Cryptic 22:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it also be possible to search for two different tags at the same time? E.g., I want to see the revisions on a single page that either used the 2017 wikitext editor or the visual editor, not necessarily together. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  19:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, Recentchanges seems to support that if you separate the tag names with a | |visualeditor, but history doesn't |visualeditor. It's easy to build a query to do it, though, once you have a concrete request. —Cryptic 22:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Is there a bot that could replace some uncontroversial redirects and pipes?
Throughout the years, I've seen a bunch of redirects to some Polish cities were the only difference is a diacritic. Krakow (and Cracow) to Kraków, Gdansk to Gdańsk, Wroclaw to Wroclaw, Poznan to Poznań and Lodz to Łódż are most common (one could simply use the List of cities and towns in Poland for all major cities/towns). None of those are controversial, as this is not related to historical names like Danzig or Breslau, but simply to Polish names rendered in English without a diacritic. I wonder if there is a bot that start fixing it? For usage without a hyperlink we can't use an automated tool as it could mess up things like book titles or people's names or other rare but expected outlier, but when there is a link present and so the target is clear, there is zero reason to use the diacritc-less version, and zero chance of error (unintended change that would mess up the meaning/context) - this is at the same level as an uncontroversial, not ambigious spelling fix/etc. So how could we get this done? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Didn't there use to be a bot that corrected links to redirects tagged R from misspelling? Seems it could be easily adapted to R to diacritic. —Cryptic 13:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think there might have been something like that. Anyone remembers more? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue is this is still WP:CONTEXTBOT, for things like quotes and such, e.g. "James said that Lodz was really nice last year" is perfectly fine English. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This is ENGLISH wikipedia. I hate words in titles not in English.  They could write the xx-ish name in the xx-ish wikipedia.  Poland is not the worse - anything in Vietnam is bad.  To me, any title can't be written in a normal English "typewriter" can't be used in a heading. Not Samuel Pepys (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

WebP thumbnail rendering issue in Firefox
I'm having an issue with WebP thumbnails on Firefox. I only just noticed this in the RDNA (microarchitecture) article and haven't done further inspection of any other articles. Screenshot of the issue is included.

I'm using Firefox 82.0 64-bit on Linux Mint 19 Tara. I restarted the browser, tried it in Private Browsing mode, made a new browser profile, and the issue persisted. The problem didn't occur on Chromium.

Anyone else? Linux Mint does their own build of Firefox, so there's a remote chance that this could be build-specific, so I'm asking just in case. Haven't filed a bug report yet, I don't even know what it involves, if there's a separate account registration needed, etc. and don't really have the energy for it right now. --Veikk0.ma 21:02, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I can confirm this happens on Windows 10 as well (Firefox 82.0.1) BegbertBiggs (talk) 21:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks fine in 81.0.2 and 82.0.2 here. Try updating Firefox.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  21:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have an issue in 82.0 on W10. --Izno (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I can repreduce on 81.0.2 and 82.02. Might be an issue on the ESAMS (European) server. Clearing my own cache does not make a difference.--Snaevar (talk) 22:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was kind of inclined to start thinking it's a hardware issue somewhere. Maybe a corruption caused by the transition earlier this week? --Izno (talk) 23:26, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please file a Phabricator task and tag the Thumbor project. It would also be helpful if you could include the response headers for the relevant request from the Network tab of the Firefox developer tools (F12). --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 23:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I did a Ctrl + F5 refresh of the page and the issue (or at least my ability to reproduce it) seems to be gone, because I'm now getting a PNG thumbnail instead of WebP. Even Chromium is being served PNG instead of WebP now. So someone took notice and made a configuration change.
 * I'll try to file a basic bug report within a day or two, even if I can't attach meaningful debug information. --Veikk0.ma 12:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , only a certain percent of traffic gets served as webp and which images that are, changes all the time. Still best to rrport it. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:22, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Article Name
Dear fellow Wikipedians, I find some of the  article names are in red instead of white. Can you explain the reason. Cheers....  Anupam <i> Dutta  </i> (talk)   14:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Red is a link to an article that doesn't exist, either because it was deleted or because it hasn't been created yet. Popperman99 (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * See Red link. Graham 87 04:51, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't ever recall seeing an article title in white, did you mean blue? S Philbrick  (Talk)  21:25, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Sometime the article title is in green also... What is the policy, under which the colour is used for the Article title ? Cheers ......  Anupam <i> Dutta  </i> (talk)   01:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , I've I don't recall ever seeing it in green, can you give an example? S Philbrick  (Talk)  13:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If you add the linkclassifier user script then various wiki links will change colour. For me, a redirect such as Apples is green and a dab link such as Table has a yellow background — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If you mean the actual title of an article, then it is possible to change the presentation using the DISPLAYTITLE magic word. The italic title template does this for book and film titles. As an example, I have just set my user page to use this to add colours to the title. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * if you are seeing article titles in any colour other than black, you have probably been to and enabled "". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 00:00, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Citation bot italicising non-print sources
I've noticed that when I run the citation bot it does tend to italicise non-print sources, specifically references to BBC News. The examples I have are for Peel Marina and Don't Mention the World Cup (which also did it to ABC). Is there a way that this can be fixed?  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 10:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The edits are correct on those pages. BBC is the publisher, BBC News is the work.  This is akin to The New York Times Company is the publisher but The New York Times is the work.  When the name of the publisher is substantively the same as the name of the work, omit the publisher.  This topic however, is not a technical topic so WP:VPT is perhaps the wrong venue.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * But how does that work with the ABC one?  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 10:45, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The same. Australian Broadcasting Corporation is the publisher, ABC is the work; they are substantively similar so omit the publisher though it might be a good idea in some cases to include Australia to prevent confusion with ABC (work), American Broadcasting Company (publisher).
 * Still not a technical topic.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Musical scores are not displayed
If one goes to: Augmented_sixth_chord, scores are not displayed, and instead the following message can be seen: Musical scores are temporarily disabled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gakrivas (talk • contribs) 10:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , that message is correct and expected. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , does the message mean that the page contains an error? or that there is an issue that will eventually be corrected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gakrivas (talk • contribs) 12:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * See section "Musical scores are temporarily disabled" appearing on music pages. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:34, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Gakrivas (talk) 11:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit summary history in the visual editor and Dark Mode for Wikipedia
I have two questions. Q1: I notice when I I type in an edit summary on the visual editor, my edit summary history appears. Is there a way to disable that so that my edit summary history doesn't appear. Q2: I know that a dark theme for Wikipedia is currently in development. When can we expect it to be released to the general public? I appreciate any thoughts. Interstellarity (talk) 15:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There's been a Chrome extension for Wikipedia Dark Mode for some time: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/wikipedia-night-mode/idhghjodolinkdhibgfgfoceackpcjfl Then there's this and tis at Phabricator you might want to keep an eye on. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The browser I use is Firefox and does not support Chrome extensions. However, I found the Dark Reader extension available for both Chrome and Firefox to do the job for now until we get a dark theme for Wikipedia. Some websites automatically adject to dark mode if you have dark mode set in your OS such as DuckDuckGo, YouTube, and Twitter. Hopefully, this will become standard in all websites in the near future. These are my thoughts regarding Q2. Interstellarity (talk) 16:22, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Function to add a menu?
The mw.util JavaScript library has the addPortletLink function to add items to existing menus. One of my user scripts adds a new menu to the main sidebar, but it just creates the HTML based on what I see in the current Vector skin. Is there a "standard" / "correct" way to add a new menu that will be fairly future-proof and valid across all of the skins? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 11:43, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * For the sidebar, the easiest/traditional way I believe has been to just clone one of the others. There's an example at User:Amorymeltzer/pedit.js if you like, but basically something like:
 * There's probably room for improvement — I think it doesn't match the new Vector well — but something like that has served me well for a decade. ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 14:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I have altered my script to clone an existing portlet – which does make it a little shorter and also means I build in less specific HTML. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 20:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I have altered my script to clone an existing portlet – which does make it a little shorter and also means I build in less specific HTML. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 20:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Twinkle Rollback option on user contributions page
Hello, I have a question about twinkle and the rollback/vandalism button. I don't have rollback rights, but when I go to a user contributions page, twinkle (I think) adds the rollback/vandalism buttons - even though I dont have these options when I just go the the history sections of the pages in question. Is this a bug in twinkle, or did I mess up my skins? I attached a screenshot of how my user contributions page of a random user in the section above looks like. thanks --Mvbaron (talk) 07:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Check out your Twinkle preferences, you can customize where those links show up. The links on history pages and recent changes were recently added, whereas the other options existed for over a decade, so they default to off.  You can also ask at WT:Twinkle. ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 11:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , Thank you, that was it - I didn't see the option among the many checkboxes :). thanks! Mvbaron (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Aziz Feyzi Pirinççizâde
While moving this draft to mainspace, an exception is thrown that the title is blacklisted. I am wondering, what is the issue as I am not able to find any log entry for this event. The draft is waiting to be reviewed since 27th of July. <b style="color:Green; font-family:Times New Roman">Hitro</b><b style="color:#FF00FF; font-family:courier; font-size:small"> talk</b> 08:21, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I moved it using the AFC tool, and saw no error. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Admins have the override title blacklist right, so that does not mean anything.--Snaevar (talk) 11:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * An entry says "blacklist test" in the public log (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Draft%3AAziz+Feyzi+Pirin%C3%A7%C3%A7iz%C3%A2de) for the draft page. Maybe remember why? Christian75 (talk) 13:30, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In MediaWiki:Titleblacklist there is an entry that stops movement to names containing çç (or other repeated similar c or g variants) to stop page move vandalism. That would appear to be the blocker. In this case the name appears to be valid, so not a vandalism title. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:25, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Can't see log entry for page with pending changes
When I go to review changes to James Holmes (mass murderer), the area that usually displays the reason for protection is displaying "No matching items in log.", and I cannot find any entry for that page in the Pending changes log. Is there some legitimate, known reason why that would be the case? One is supposed to take into account the reason for protection when reviewing changes. William Avery (talk) 19:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It was protected before it was moved from . —Cryptic 19:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, see [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=James_Eagan_Holmes logs for old title]. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm now puzzled about how I can easily get to that information starting from the current page title. William Avery (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Usually, look through the first few pages of history for the "moved page" revision summary.When that doesn't work because it was moved almost five years ago and it's a busy page, Special:Whatlinkshere, turn off everything but redirects, and check each. —Cryptic 20:47, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * There are at least two ways. One, go back through the page history looking for the string "configured pending changes" - warning: it's more than 1,000 revisions before the present. Two, use [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/James_Holmes_(mass_murderer)&hidelinks=1&hidetrans=1 What Links Here], hiding transclusions and links, to list only the redirects; then look at the page history for each until you find the one showing "moved page ... to James Holmes (mass murderer)"; then view the logs for that page. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I may suggest an addendum to the notes for reviewers. William Avery (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Help is needed to make the header row with sorting icons sticky
Need help with the template CSS:
 * Template:COVID-19 pandemic data/styles.css
 * Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_pandemic_by_country_and_territory&oldid=985161198#Cumulative_monthly_death_totals_by_country

Help is needed to make both the main header row, and the header row with sorting icons, sticky. The second link below has a partially collapsed table that is narrower due to a separate header row with sorting icons. But when you scroll down only one row is sticky (stays visible). Need both header rows to remain sticky.
 * Talk:COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory
 * Talk:COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory

Collapsed table. See table wikitext here: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox124

Narrower collapsed table. See table wikitext here: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox125

--Timeshifter (talk) 11:59, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * ✅ just add class="covid-sticky covid-sticky-2" to line 9 in User:Timeshifter/Sandbox125 to achieve the desired effect. Please ping me if there are any issues I should be around again at some point this week.  &#119980; &#120084;  21:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

(unindent). Thanks. I tried the new sticky code you discussed. It did not work. I tried adding  and   and. I added them to line 9 and line 11. Various combinations were tried. Only one header row could be made sticky.

I created a sandbox where you could experiment:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox126.

Here is the current unaltered wikitext below. I am talking about the 2 lines starting with

--Timeshifter (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * For those who are interested there is related discussion about the "show all" and "collapse" buttons. Currently they work only on the top table when there is more than one partially collapsed table on a page. See:
 * User talk:Timeshifter.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:47, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

(unindent). I also asked for help here: I pointed them back to here. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia talk:TemplateStyles


 * found a partial solution by shortening the header names, and putting the sorting icons back with the header names. It has been implemented here:
 * Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country


 * But there will be a need for a sticky sorting row in other partially collapsed tables.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 07:55, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , there is no real good fix for this at this time. Simply put, browsers don't support this problem, unless you specifically write CSS for each and every usecase. What needs to happen is that in addition to setting "covid-sticky" class on the 2nd row, you would have to add something like this to the stylesheet:
 * Unfortunately the height of the 1st row however is hard to determine because parts of it are in pixels (lineheight) and other parts in em (padding). And the content in the first row can wrap to two lines of course, so then any calculation goes out the window. So this technique breaks quite easily.
 * What is really needed to properly support this, is allowing usage of position stick on the thead element, but unfortunately browsers don't support this yet (I've been asking them for 8 years already). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:18, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What is really needed to properly support this, is allowing usage of position stick on the thead element, but unfortunately browsers don't support this yet (I've been asking them for 8 years already). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:18, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What is really needed to properly support this, is allowing usage of position stick on the thead element, but unfortunately browsers don't support this yet (I've been asking them for 8 years already). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:18, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I just went in and applied the narrowing update to Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country/sandbox, this functions by setting the 1st element to a specific height in em; not the most eloquent solution but there aren't many good options. The class combination is working for me, but please double check and let me know if there are any issues as I don't have the time right now to run this through a bunch of VMs to see if there are issues on all common device/browser combos.I also implemented a fix for the show/collapse issue when multiple tables are present for Template:COVID-19 pandemic data, Template:COVID-19 pandemic death rates, and Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country; the solution is extremely hacky but it worked at Draft:Sandbox, and for reasons I'll get to there's no clean way to implement this.The primary issue is that whoever set this up never intended for multiple templates that it supports to be on the same page. As such the appropriate level of specificity is being ensured through use of an ID, this is a good solution when you have one supported template per page, but breaks down as soon as a second one is used. This is because all IDs must be unique in their own subtree (basically document-wide) and now we have two or more elements with the same ID ( technical details ). This results in undefined behavior. Since browsers are usually quite forgiving when it comes to HTML rendering, the result is not disastrous but it does cause numerous issues. Also note that even if current html renderers work in this instance, there's no guarantee they will continue to do so in the future as it is contrary to the specification. So the real solution is to refactor the code completely to avoid relying on an ID for the specificity needed, but this is easier said than done especially as it involves synchronizing dozens of templates that rely on this stylesheet.Getting back to the issue at hand, typical browser behavior when an ID being targeted belongs to multiple elements is to target only the first element with that ID; hence the current show/collapse issue. To avoid that problem, I've wrapped each of the three tables mentioned above in another div to give them a unique ID and targeted that ID instead. I've also gone ahead and switched the collapse button from #top to #void to avoid the user being returned to the top of the page, as opposed to just the top of the div, which will work as long as there is no ID or section called void (null target could be done more efficiently with js, but there are security concerns).So as I said above, the real solution is to refactor this entirely, and let's face it the current CodeSmell ain't exactly pleasant, but that will take several hours and I won't have that kind of time until at least the second half of November if then. In the meantime it would help if someone starts compiling a list of the classes and IDs currently being used by every template running off this stylesheet to help understand why things are currently put together the way they are, as well as to help identify things that are no longer needed.  &#119980; &#120084;  23:01, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

(unindent). Thanks !! A lot of what you discussed is way above my pay grade. :)

Here is the diff of your change to Template:COVID-19 pandemic data. It is buried in the many changes made to that template every day. So I thought I would link to it here in case you, I, or others want to see the changes discussed here.

Everything is working now in the 3 partially closed templates in COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory.

Also, I see that the sorting row is now sticky in the template sandbox: Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country/sandbox (in this version). I copied it to here: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox130.

I tried a test also by combining the Sandbox130 template with the other partially closed templates on a sandbox page, User:Timeshifter/Sandbox127. The sorting row is still sticky. But the show/collapse buttons for that table did not work. I assume it is because it did not have the necessary specificity div added. But that's OK. I don't intend to use that template with the sticky header row. I will point to it though from Help:Table as an example.

In the meantime we can continue to use Mfb's solution to narrow that table more simply. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Good catch, what happened with the sandbox was I that I first saw the feedback on the earlier request for the second sticky row and applied that there and only after that was done did I check my other notifications to see the request for help with the show/collapse issue for multiple templates on the same page and never went back to apply the same fix to the sandbox. In any event the sandbox has now been and because it's id is different from the live template they will function on the same page. Let me know if there are any other issues I will try to find the time to examine all the templates that the main css sheet applies to so I can refactor it sometime towards the end of the year assuming no one else has gotten around to it by then.  &#119980;  &#120084;  21:09, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


 * . Thanks. I copied the wikitext of Template:Monthly cumulative COVID-19 death totals by country/sandbox. I adapted it, and then pasted it into User:Timeshifter/Sandbox130. Thanks for the adaptation info in the first paragraph of the hidden notes.


 * All 3 partially-closed tables work correctly now at User:Timeshifter/Sandbox127. At least after reloading the Firefox page via Ctrl-F5. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Religion parameter in other biographical infoboxes
Hey there, religion was removed from Template:Infobox person as a result of this RFC, and I believe most other biographical infoboxes had this parameter removed.

I notice Category:Infobox person using religion is empty. Yet Template:Infobox YouTube personality still has religion active, as seen in the result of this edit. Maybe it wasn't set up correctly to identify itself as a biographical infobox? Most of the templates listed at WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes lack religion, except the religious one. I also found Category:People and person infobox templates but didn't check any of them for this parameter. Is there an easy way to find and locate stragglers like the YouTube one? And can someone cull them from the infoboxes, where appropriate, please? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:13, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I mentioned this at Template talk:Infobox person. Johnuniq (talk) 05:33, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Database query weirdity
This database query is perplexing. The query clearly says "WHERE page_namespace = 118" (which is the namespace number for draft space). Why is the phantom page WT:Social included in the result? It seems to violate both page_namespace=118 and page_is_redirect=0 conditions, apart from the fact that it's not a legal page name (as WT is a namespace shortcut). – SD0001  (talk) 10:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , you're getting tripped-up by the page_title: it's the title sans namespace. You're not looking at WT:Social, you're looking at Draft:WT:Social! ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 11:17, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Damn! Actually I came across this at User:SDZeroBot/G13_eligible. The page should have been empty today, but there's this Wikipedia talk:Social lurking there – a grim reminder that  gives "Wikipedia talk:Social" rather than "Draft:WT:Social"! Creepy bug – now I think you were right about this. –  SD0001  (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Visual differences between browsers on tables
Please see diff is doing an FLC review for me, and would like to know why table column spacing looks different on different browsers. Personally, I find that with a lot of visuals on websites, but I believe TRM would like a suggested solution here. Please advise. — Maile (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, to be clear, it's identical table structure from section to section yet the columns are completely different widths. I'm seeing the problem in different browsers.  Not a major issue but something that needs to be addressed.  The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 00:49, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * A) This is not an actual issue, as different browsers will render differently even with the same or similar hardware and software supporting the browser (viewport A, resolution B, monitor C...). That's just how that is in many cases even still (though not usually with basic tables). That said, B) Please test now. I am willing to believe that somewhere in the parsing of the column headers where the width was set that the browsers were each doing something different with . Quotation marks are usually necessary in the general case, but in this case I have converted to , which is the undeprecated version. --Izno (talk) 01:05, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Still looks junk on my Chrome browser. No reason at all for the column widths to be different in the same browser.  The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:10, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the original problem was badly described. Within a single browser, column widths different from section to section despite having identical columns from section to section.  Browser is irrelevant really, I'm not sure why Maile66 muddied the water on the original issue.  The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:12, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I just resolved the issue between my two browsers, by zooming the Chrome one notch. Like magic, both Firefox and Chrome look identical to me. — Maile  (talk) 01:16, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The columns are not identical though. Only two have a width set. The browser will attempt to account for the remaining widths based of those columns what the remaining column widths will be. --Izno (talk) 01:19, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The columns are identical. Each table has Year, Title, Role, Notes, Ref(s).  I'm saying why aren't the column widths the same for each table which have the same columns. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:23, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You may be right that the column widths adjust per the coding, but you're all missing the point. The tables should look the same.  Work it out please. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:24, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The column are identical. The browser accounts for the entire column's contents.
 * To correct the issue, either you or should add width styling to the remaining headers, to taste. I do not know such aesthetics, so I will leave you two to it. --Izno (talk) 01:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I no longer have an issue with this. It resolved for me by just zooming Chrome.  So, I no longer see evidence that there is an issue. — Maile  (talk) 01:30, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) Yes, yes, we're saying the same thing. The original point was miscommunicated.  The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To be clear, nope. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 01:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't think it's possible to do what you want. Each table gets its columns computed independently, unless you resort to CSS tricks like "table-layout: fixed" and manually specifying the column widths, which doesn't seem like something you want to be doing.  The alternative would be to make this one big table.  There's more in this stackover article. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:35, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Where a column has no width set, browsers calculate an optimum width for each column based upon a number of factors, including: width available overall; width left over after fixed-width columns have been fitted in; number of columns without a fixed width; size of the contents of all cells in each of the columns without a fixed width; border and cell padding thickness. Different browser vendors use different algorithms, even between different version numbers of ostensibly the same browser.
 * In the first table, the Title column includes a cell containing The Candid Camera Story (Very Candid) the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Pictures 1937 Convention which is longer by far than any other cell content in the same column, in either table. The content in that particular cell forces that column to be wider than it would have been had the cell content been shorter, like Hollywood on Parade No. B-6 on the row above. In the second table, all of the cells in the Title column are reasonably short, so the Year and Ref(s) cols are able to expand a bit.
 * In short: this should not be regarded as a FLC stopper. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikimedia error
This link was posted on a web site.

Clicking gave me this error messsage: Request from 98.21.227.217 via cp1084 cp1084, Varnish XID 654534247 Upstream caches: cp1084 int Error: 404, Not Found at Sun, 01 Nov 2020 20:25:00 GMT— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  20:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That is because the correct page name is File:1959 Edsel Villager - Red.jpg. The link for the 1200px version is
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/1959_Edsel_Villager_-_Red.jpg/1200px-1959_Edsel_Villager_-_Red.jpg
 * not
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/1959_Edsel_Villager_-Red.jpg/1200px-1959_Edsel_Villager_-Red.jpg
 * Your link had an space (underscore) before the word "Red".
 * davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  20:41, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  20:49, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Unicode characters failing to capitalise again
This has been raised a number of times in the past (one two three four), but apparently it is now happening again: at least on my end, for example, ƀ and Ƀ seem to be separate pages (I get the redlink notice on clicking the first one, but not on the second). Which they shouldn't be, the second being the uppercase version of the first. It seems to have been tracked here, but then again it is marked "Closed, Declined", so I am not sure if anything can be done; I'm just pointing it out. ^_^

If it cannot be fixed, however, then I do wonder if ƀ should actually redirect to Ƀ rather than be a red link; they should be the same page, but they're not in practice, and if it's not going to be fixed then perhaps readers who copy-paste it in there should at least be getting to the right page. Double sharp (talk) 20:29, 1 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The relevant task is actually T219279 I believe, which is still open (it is linked in the decline comment). You might consider leaving a comment there about it. --Izno (talk) 21:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Creating a page with preloaded information and passing a parameter
Hi all, I would like to use a template like edit to create a page with preloaded information. I also want to pass a parameter to the new page at the same time as is done here:.

Are there any templates, such as edit that, let me create a preloaded page AND pass a parameter, or do I have to handcode the link whenever I want to use it (ie instead of ) include the full-on http://mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Sandbox?action=edit&section=new&nosummary=true&preload=Manual:Creating_pages_with_preloaded_text/param_demo&preloadparams[] ? Many thanks --Tom (LT) (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know exactly what you want, but take a look at the "signing up" section of WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives/November 2020. We use an inputbox to preload text into a page that then saves back to the original page that the button lives on. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Close but no cigar. I need to be able to pass a piece of information to the article body --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-45
<section begin="technews-2020-W45"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * You can no longer read Wikimedia wikis if your browser uses very old TLS. This is because it is a security problem for everyone. It could lead to downgrade attacks. Since October 29, 2020, users who use old TLS versions will not be able to connect to Wikimedia projects. A list of browser recommendations is available. All modern operating systems and browsers are always able to reach Wikimedia projects.
 * Octicons-tools.svg There is a new automatic tracking category available: Pages with non-numeric formatnum arguments. It collects pages which use the  parser function with invalid (non-numeric) input, e.g.  . Note that   is also invalid input: as described in the documentation, the argument should be unformatted so that it can be reliably and correctly localised. The tracking category will help identify problematic usage and double-formatting. The new tracking category's name can be translated at translatewiki.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from November 3. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from November 4. It will be on all wikis from November 5 (calendar).
 * Administrators and stewards will be able to use a special page (Special:CreateLocalAccount) to force local account creation for a global account. This is useful when account creation is blocked for that user (by a block or a filter).
 * The Reply tool will be offered as an opt-in Beta Feature on most Wikipedias on November 4. This change excludes the English, Russian, and German-language Wikipedias, plus a few smaller Wikipedias with special circumstances. You can read the help page and the troubleshooting guide for more information.

Future changes
 * A discussion has been restarted about using a Unicode minus sign (− U+2212) in the output of  when it is given a negative argument.
 * In the future IP addresses of unregistered users will not be shown for everyone. They will get an alias instead. There will be a new user right or an opt-in function for more vandal fighters to see the IPs of unregistered users. There would be some criteria for who gets the user right or opt-in. There will also be other new tools to help handle vandalism. This is early in the process and the developers are still collecting information from the communities before they suggest solutions.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W45"/> 16:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Help with Article milestones

 * See Template:Article history and Talk:Landis's Missouri Battery and Taming talk clutter

Gimmetrow and Dr pda (with help from Maralia and I) developed and installed the Article milestones on every then-extant FA in 2008. All three of them are now gone. Gimmetrow later moved on to incorporating all content review process templates into the article milestones, before he was chased off of Wikipedia by a sockmaster. Since then, most article milestones have not been correctly maintained and I have been trying to clean them up to the old standard. I suspect some of the documentation at the Template is also outdated. There is now a parameter at the Template for the Four Award, but it is not displaying as anything. Perhaps the intent was to show the Four Award logo on the milestones. For example, see 's Four Award at Talk:Landis's Missouri Battery. Is anyone able to address that? Several processes are no longer adding their parameters correctly to the article milestones, so template clutter is growing again, after all the work we did a decade ago to clean it up! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:42, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Part of the issue with the Landis's Missouri Battery page might be that it has been through many different titles: it passed GA and DYK at Landis's Battery, MILHIST ACR and FAC as Landis' Missouri Battery, and was moved to the current title after the FAC closed. So there's a lot of things wrong here, at least partially due to my trouble getting a solid name for this one. Hog Farm Bacon 20:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that would be the problem, because the template was coded to accommodate name changes. (Each event records the name at the time with a link to whatever page was used then.) And I saw another FOUR award not displaying somewhere else.  I suspect it is just something that was not coded to display after the event was added to article history by someone.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:05, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I suspect you will be interested in the current bot request for article history. --Izno (talk) 21:06, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ack! Thanks, will try to see if I can digest that page :)  Most appreciated, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:08, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, Izno; I am on board over there. But this is a separate issue from bot processing to build article milestones.  This is something that is not coded correctly at Template:Article history, so that nothing is showing when there is a FOUR award on board.  Perhaps that was intentional because the FOUR award goes to a person and not an article???  I don't know.  But if that is the case, it should not be an option at article history.  As of now, it is an option that is doing nothing.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @SandyGeorgia The code for this is in Module:Article history/config. In the case you've given, this is adding the Category:Wikipedia four award articles that you see on Talk:Landis's Missouri Battery. If I follow you right, you're saying this shouldn't be done at all, because the award is given to people not articles, and would like that logic removed from Module:Article history/config? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Top icons not aligning correctly in the Modern skin
I'm having an issue with the Modern skin where the multiple top icons on a given page are vertically aligned instead of horizontally. When viewing the page in the Vector, MonoBook and Timeless skins, they render just fine horizontally, but not in Modern. Upon further investigation I have found that each of the top icons in the other skins have the 'mw-indicator' class in a container div that has the 'mw-indicators' class. In Modern they have no such class added, but they are still in that container div.

My current solution is to add this bit of code to my modern.js userscript:

$('.mw-indicators').children.addClass('mw-indicator')

Anybody else seeing this problem? Dlrohrer 2003  19:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've opened T267066 on this. If there is not going to be a fix coming anytime soon we can use a local skin-specific hack sitewide. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:28, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

What's this?
At Pointe de Givet National Nature Reserve, the string  appears in the middle of several words and at the edges of some others. I find the same string in several other articles. It appears in some Google searches, but nothing I understand. Should I take them out? Thanks, SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 06:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm pretty sure it is a left-over from a google translation. It should be safe to delete, but I wonder how it ended up in the article in the first place... Mvbaron (talk) 07:33, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have edited the phrase out of 17 pages and it's made no difference in the display. Problem solved. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 20:44, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It was introduced in this revision: Special:PermaLink/937276795. — xaosflux  Talk 21:02, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Special pages
It's not possible to create/delete special pages, right? If so, why have there been special pages that have previously existed here but then were gone, like Special:MyCourses, was gone. Also, like, Special:UploadWizard is not here but on commons. Are special pages deleted in this case, or were they just installed? --Ituafmq (talk) 17:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Special pages are determined by the MediaWiki software. MyCourses was from the removed EducationProgram extension. UploadWizard is currently only enabled on Commons. Legoktm (talk) 00:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Cite journal not working properly when date is year-month
Hello. I recently found out that the Template:Cite journal doesn't work properly when a date is given in the yyyy-mm format. For example, here someone had to change it from "2006-05" to "May 2006". Is it possible to edit the predefinition so that it automatically displays the name of the month when the date is in yyyy-mm format? Thanks! Mateussf (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That's because YYYY-MM is not a valid WP:MOS format and is ambiguous. See the help message at the end of the citation. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Archiving confusion
I am a bit confused about HELP:Archiving_a_talk_page. Of the two bots presented, I feel like lowercase sigmabot III has only disadvantages (requires additional index bot, doesn't link etc). And also, in the section on Archive indexing, there is even a banner that says "Legobot's archive indexing task is currently not functioning on a regular basis and has not been for quite some time. It is unclear when, or if, this bot will be functioning."

What is going on here? Why is lowercase sigmabot III presented there if it doesn't work? (at all?) Thanks --Mvbaron (talk) 07:17, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It does work . What makes you think that it doesn't? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:19, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , hello! Yes, I thought it does work. But I was referring specifically to the HELP:Archiving_a_talk_page, where it said "Legobot's archive indexing task is currently not functioning on a regular basis ". Hence my confusion. Mvbaron (talk) 07:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Problems with ORES
I have been having trouble with ORES recently. I keep getting 500 errors. Any idea what is going on? Hawkeye7  (discuss)  10:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I put in a one-second delay, which seems to improve things, but no idea why. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  10:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See T263910. ORES has been intermittently having issues for quite a while now. – SD0001  (talk) 12:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Template & module populated categories to rename
A discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 18 has renamed many categories; however the following are populated by excessively complicated templates ( Template:Lang seems to be the root) and modules:


 * Category:Articles with text from the North Germanic languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Germanic languages
 * Category:Articles with text from the Slavic languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Slavic languages
 * Category:Articles with text from the South Slavic languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Slavic languages
 * Category:Articles with text from the West Germanic languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Germanic languages
 * Category:Articles with text from the West Slavic languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Slavic languages
 * Category:Articles with text from the Western Malayo-Polynesian languages collective to Category:Articles with text in Malayo-Polynesian languages

Can someone with the know-how please make the adjustments to move all the articles over? Thanks in advance. Timrollpickering (talk) 00:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a complete mess. The meat of the rename was already accomplished by Special:Diff/986781257, however there appears to have been an merge of Category:Articles with text from the South Slavic languages collective and Category:Articles with text from the West Slavic languages collective into Category:Articles with text in Slavic languages proposed in the list of changes which was not implemented by the module change. The same thing applied for Germanic and Malayo-Polynesian. Category:Articles with text from the Slavic languages collective, unlike the others, appears to be a straightforward cfd jobqueue issue and the category will clear by null-editing every page in it. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  02:00, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * is newly empty at this writing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:10, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * All of the "collective" categories are empty at this writing, and the articles have been delivered to the proper post-CFD category names. I think the articles just needed a null edit. I think this means that the "collective" categories can be deleted, but I am not an XFD process guru. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Except articles have ended up in the non-existent Category:Articles with text in South Slavic languages, Category:Articles with text in West Germanic languages, etc. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 04:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Created. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Logo fix
Is anyone familiar with a way to change background colors on s on Wikipedia? Look at Utopia (2020 TV series), there is apparently no version of this logo anywhere online that's not in white text. Is there a way to make this visible using image syntax, or can a skilled photo editor help manipulate this to be more legible? ɱ (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Off-topic: I've nominated that file for deletion from the Commons, it clearly exceeds Commons:Commons:Threshold of originality.  It would be a WP:Fair use image here for that article, once it is downsized.   davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  21:43, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your opinion that it exceeds the threshold of originality, but I'm cool with it as a nonfree image on Wikipedia regardless. ɱ  (talk) 21:46, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * For a black background, try this: .  See Annotated image 4 for details.  There may be better ways to do this, it's just the first one I found.  I don't know if it will work in infoboxes or not.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  21:55, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Get Template:Infobox television amended to have this line added:  then in the infobox of Utopia (2020 TV series), add this line:   The value   makes a 50% grey, adjust this as you see fit. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Done in Special:Diff/986908413 and Special:Diff/986909586. —⁠andrybak (talk) 18:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia's CAPTCHA to Google's reCAPTCHA
I notice that on some wikis especially Wikipedia that they use their own CAPTCHAs to prevent spam, but there is still spam posted on them. Many websites use Google's reCAPTCHA which used to be distorted text but now uses Street View to be harder on bots. I'm just suggesting a possibility for Wikipedia. I&#39;m not perfect but I&#39;m almost (talk) 19:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, a captcha is to prevent bots from posting spam. How much Wikipedia spam is from bots and not from humans? RudolfRed (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Back in August I saw a possible bot that added spam links to live streams for sporting events. I remembered that today and suggested reCAPTCHA will (nearly) completely prevent this. I&#39;m not perfect but I&#39;m almost (talk) 19:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , google is a commercial service that spies on its users and uses those same people to train algorithms for non-transparent goals, potentially even military goals. It is against our movement values in almost every way and cannot be used —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * we're unlikely to rely on a third party to manage our system access, however many related ideas for improving the captcha are being considered, you may want to review T241921 and the linked tasks for much more information. — xaosflux  Talk 19:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Bug in template
I found a bug in Template:Horizontal TOC where it sometimes reverts to the standard vertical layout. See Template talk:Horizontal TOC. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 19:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The actual problem there is that both Template:TOCright and Template:Horizontal TOC are present, and the former overrides the latter. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 19:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Pageviews Analysis
When I look at a Pageviews Analysis like this, does it include every time a single person viewed, or is it more a "unique visitor" thing? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:09, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , See the FAQ linked from the footer of the pageviews service. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup, should have done that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Maintainers needed for Snuggle
Snuggle is a browser-based newcomer observation and support system. It needs a few maintainers. Is anyone willing to help? CAPTAIN MEDUSA  talk  13:07, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks :) —usernamekiran (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

G13 category mystery
Hello, tech experts,

A number of us have been puzzling over a problem we are having with Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions. This category holds drafts and user sandboxes that are between 5 and 6 months old, without a recent edit, as they approach being eligible for a CSD G13 tagging. Until October, the category typically held between 2,000-5,000 aging drafts. Then, during the month of October, it emptied out. For the past two weeks, it's only had approximately 400 drafts even though our daily count, User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon, shows that between 200-300 drafts reach G13 status on a daily basis.

There have been several conversations on what might be the problem at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation and User_ talk:DGG (and I'll ping DGG on this notice). Lately, I've been responsible for tagging and deleting many G13 eligible drafts, I'll just add that every day I see dozens of drafts that are categorized under Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions but when you click on the category, you don't see these drafts listed in the category contents. So, drafts are being categorized correctly, they just don't appear when you look at the category.

Something similar happens to pages that are tagged CSD G6 and CSD G8 but maybe that is a different issue.

So, does some page need to be purged or something done to cause this category to once again fill up with aging drafts? I have discovered a work-around of sorts but it would be nice if the system once again worked. Thanks for any help you can provide. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 23:35, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It sounds like your problem is that content (specifically categories) is not being updated in date-based templates, which someone else has complained about a bit higher up in the page: Village_pump_(technical). Legoktm (talk) 01:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I suppose it could be. But for a category's contents to drop 90% over a period of a month without an explanation seems more dramatic than a date hiccup. As I alluded, this happens all of the time with empty maintenance categories not showing up in speedy deletion categories (G6 and G8) but I think that's a longstanding problem while this G13 category mess happened quite suddenly. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:23, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well The 90% drop has to do with SDZeroBot's edits (as discussed elsewhere). Along the lines of what did in query/49384, it is possible to create a bot-generated equivalent of Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions that lists pages that have not been edited by a human for 5+ months.  Would such a thing be helpful? It would look just like the category, except that it would be capable of differentiating bot edits from human edits which the category can't do. –  SD0001  (talk) 08:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation (permalink). davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, the category contents have increased earlier today from 400 drafts to 700 drafts and is now at 1,000 drafts so whatever is being done is helping! I know once we get to over 2,000 drafts, things will be closer to normal operations. Thank you! Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 17:33, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There's two unrelated things happening here me thinks. For G13 currently eligible, I wrote a quarry, someone else turned that into a wiki list for easier access at that link David sent. The size of that quarry (I just refreshed it) is now (as of tomorrow) double the size it was one week ago, with 1,017 currently eligible for G13 (1,291 from end of tomorrow). As for the soon eligible cat, I have no idea why it's filling up that quick. Either one of the bots filling up the cat have changed their query, it's dumb luck, or it could be my cat purge from Joe's task 4 (although, I don't think it's that, since it only does pending). It's populated by a template, so, probably not #1 either. I think that one is most likely just pure luck with the job queue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, ProcrastinatingReader, from what I've seen, SDZeroBot's G13 soon list, which posts a list of between 200-300 aging drafts every day, is reliable. It's also a list that AfC editors look at to take out promising drafts, so even though it's just been around since September, it's become very useful. I've asked bot operator SD0001 why SDZeroBot picks up eligible drafts that don't appear in the G13 eligible soon category and we haven't come up with an answer. But SDZeroBot seems to pick up more drafts that are user sandboxes with AfC tags and not just drafts in Draft space which are the bulk of pages in the G13 eligible soon category.
 * As for the G13 eligible soon category, it's now up to 1,800 drafts which is not quite what it used to be (listing between 2K-5K drafts) but much, much better than just listing 400 drafts. Thanks for any help you provided to resolve this. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 00:04, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems to be working agin, thpough I too have the feeling it isn't catching everything.
 * Asf or the quarry link in it's original form, I find it worthless as a practical matter for direct use, because you have to past every title into a Wikipedia search to find out what it is, whereas with the category, one can check by hovering, and I can go quickly enough to be certain of catching everythign that might be of interest ot me hand have at least enough potential to be worth checking. So, at the end of this experiment, we will soon be back to where we were. Where we were wasn;t all that good, but it was usable. I want to thank evertyone who worked on resotring thigns to a useful state.  DGG ( talk ) 06:01, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The quarry was turned into a wikilist with links by CptViraj: Special:Permalink/986483006. It's an older version of the Quarry, so only ~650 of the entries rather than the full 1200, but it's something. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Which is why I offered in a comment above to set up that quarry as a periodically bot-updated page with wikilinks. You seem to be indicating that such a thing would be helpful, but I'd want a confirmation before I spend any time on it. –  SD0001  (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Problem with search function that could lead to new articles with incorrect titles
Someone who can change the software for the search function should read the last response to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2020_August_15#my_name_is_John_Pappas_and_you_say_I_have_no_page._well_type_my_name_on_Google_and_my_Wikipedia_page_comes_up._I_gave_a_donation_to_you_yesterday._I_have_donated_many_times._I'd_to_clear_this_up. this help desk question]. If you type a search query in quotes and the result shows a red link, it appears that someone can create an article with quotes around the title. I don't know how big a problem this is, but I can see it being a problem.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  23:56, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The correct place to suggest this is Phabricator * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 00:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I messed up submitting. I linked to the help desk question but something didn't work right and it just goes to the page, not to the specific question.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  16:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I did everything right and was declined. Too complicated. Even as I suggested it, I thought it might not be that serious a problem.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Photograph copyright
My question is; I have an old photograph (hard copy) from a very old album of my father. If I scan it, can I upload and use that in wikipedia articles? The photograph taken more than 50 years ago. Thanks --AgentBarsam (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * It's possible somebody here knows, but WP:IMAGEHELP may be a better place to ask, or possibly Commons:Help desk (Commons is were we keep all our donated "free" images). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:MCQ is also where copyright experts hang out. RudolfRed (talk) 02:25, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Dear child has many names as we say in Sweden. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:52, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js
Is the script User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js safe? Thank you. Firestar464 (talk) 03:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It is per my recent demonstrated usage. Since you're neither sysop nor an extended mover, it'll automatically tag the redirects left behind with speedy-delete templates since you don't have permission to move without redirect without either of those groups. Has additional benefits of posting talk page messages to the original author and logging it to your Draftify log — <b style="font-family:Ariel; color:red">IVORK</b> <b style="font-family:Ariel; color:Green; font-size:x-small">Talk</b> 04:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Evad37 is an interface admin, so is considered a responsible maintainer - the current version (Special:PermaLink/929167616) appears to be safe as well, you could copy-paste it if you want to lock in a safe version, but if you use import you will benefit from any updates that Evad37 makes in the future. If importing it, I suggest you add that page to your watchlist, so you will be able to see if it is updated. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Dismiss TfD notices
It is possible to dismiss watchlist notices so you don't see them again. Is it possible to use the same method to dismiss TfD notices? --Trialpears (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't believe it is currently possible in the core (may be some gadgets/userscripts for it though). afaik, each watchlist message has unique identifiers which is used to dismiss the notice using JavaScript, in MediaWiki:Gadget-watchlist-notice-core.js. Applying the same method to TfD/other notices would be less feasible I think. It's likely not hard to make a user script for this, though. A simple way may be just storing page titles / TfD dates in local storage. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

help needed
Hi, I have run into a problem and would appreciate help from a more experienced editor. Basically, pages of famous people who's religion is relevant is no longer showing up on Wikipedia infobox of that person's biography. The edits are still there, but when published they no longer show up. For example, Nicholas II of Russia. If you go into the edit page, you will see that his religion is listed as "Russian Orthodox"as it should be, but it no longer appears on his page. I checked, and this is the same for all other important figures whose religion was listed before. Any help would be appreciated --GorgeousJ (talk) 03:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume this is the result of this 2016 request for comments. Why it took 4 years to implement is beyond me.  you recently made the change to Infobox royalty,  maybe you can shed some light on the long delay. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  03:18, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Recent discussion was at this link. My understanding of the RFC is that if the religion is relevant to a particular person, it should be covered in the body of the article. If there is a local consensus at the talk page for Infobox royalty that royal persons' religions are relevant enough to be placed in infoboxen for royalty, that parameter can be restored to the infobox template or a custom parameter can be used. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Purge cache on birthday?
Hey all, this might be a weird issue, but in the last week or two I've handled talk page requests about two articles (the first escapes me) including Shah Rukh Khan. Short story: It's Khan's birthday and his calculated age didn't increment. When I looked at the article, birth date and age was displaying "2 November 1965 (age 54)", when it should have read age 55. (Yes, I verified that the UTC date was 2 November). I purged the page cache and the problem was fixed, but it raises a question of whether or not an article cache should be purged automatically on a subject's birthdate if an age template is being used. This is out of my area of expertise, so if it's too much of a headache I get that, but thought I'd mention it, since this probably happens to lots of articles. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:46, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how easy it is to program an auto-purge. I think articles are purged regularly, though, just not on a schedule that plans around changes in calculations. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 19:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the job queue processes article updates at job-queue speeds. --Izno (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There was a bot to do null editing and purging. That bot is being reworked, somewhere available on WP:Bot requests I think. --Izno (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is my bot's task 5. I don't particularly have limits on what it is used for on an individual basis, as long as the purge rate is sensible. As a sidenone I'd say that said template has 650k transclusions so I'm not sure refreshing any one article over another for age is particularly worth it. So I think this kind of request would be more sensible with a "birth date and age purge task". That's being said, on average, it'd "only" add 1780 purges per day (unless birth dates is an awfully skewed distribution). For reference, User:Joe's Null Bot task 4 purged 3500 per day for just AfC. So, is it a problem? Probably not. But I think it's something worth checking with a sysadmin first, maybe. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:22, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a sysadmin, but 1800 purges a day - so long as you are operating under maxlag shouldn't be a big deal - though it should get a BRFA. — xaosflux  Talk 19:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I also have code that can do null editing (it's very simple in pywikibot), but in general it's not a good thing to run on large numbers of articles unless necessary as it adds directly to the server load (there's a reason why pages are cached). If this is a significant issue, though (BLP?), it should be fairly simple to put together a bot that does this (maybe querying Wikidata, as I'm not sure how easy it is to query birth dates for living people here). Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ParserFunctions should handle these date invalidations properly, so I would recommend not setting up a null edit bot since it's just going to hide the problem. There have been recent changes to the parser cache system, so it could be related to that. There's also another report a few sections below that seems like it could also be the same problem. I would suggest testing/reproducing this in a user sandbox or some test page that won't accidentally get edited, and then reporting it to Phabricator. Legoktm (talk) 01:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's nothing new, perhaps you are thinking of a more esoteric problem. Several different templates can calculate the age of an event, for example someone born on 1 June 2000 would be shown as aged 20 now. However, when it was 1 June 2020, the age would have been shown as 19 because that is what it was when the page was last edited/purged. The age won't update from 19 to 20 until something happens, and that might not be for a day or two, or possibly longer. Johnuniq (talk) 02:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * A page would not show the age from June 2020, regardless of when it was edited because the cache is also invalidated due to age. See mw:Manual:$wgRevisionCacheExpiry. By default this time is 7 days, but the Shah Rukh Khan article example has a cache invalidation of 30 days.--Snaevar (talk) 11:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Why does it have a cache invalidation of 30 days? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

There's something slightly tangential I wonder about here. How often does the job queue update template-populated categories? In relation to AfC, which has multiple categories for soon-G13 eligible etc. in the template itself (Template:AFC submission/draft), 5 months since last edit for the warning cat and 6 months for the ready for G13 cat, how long does it take for an article to have its cat updated once it hits 5 months. Is a full one month notice actually given in between warning and ready for deletion, or is it a few weeks, or totally arbitrary, or? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Since ParserFunctions update categories, as per Legoktm in this thread, it should happen as soon as the Job queue request from the template is done. Should that fail, then it would update based on the 30 day invalidation, which could be 180 days from the creation of the draft for the warning category as some months have 31 days (assuming the draft is only edited when created).--Snaevar (talk) 20:28, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There are related matters at WP:BOTREQ. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm. do either of you know where I can find this job code for ParserFunctions? I cannot find anything along the lines of job, or DeferredUpdate, in https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-ParserFunctions? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:32, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/core/+/135887/ for the cache invalidation in templates.--Snaevar (talk) 18:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Trouble importing map outlines from OSM
Following up from User talk:Mxn, I'm trying to create a shape map at Claremont Colleges of the seven Claremont Colleges and the consortium boundary, but only between one and three are rendering at any given time, and which ones are rendering changes every time I check back on the page (but not when I just refresh the page). It also sometimes changes between when I just view it in the article vs. click on it to show full screen. Does anyone know what's going on and how to fix it?

On a related note, I noticed that clicking on the coordinates at Georgetown University displays a similar overlay of the shape of the university's campus, rather than just a dot in the center. I can't find anything at all in the wikicode or in the documentation for Coord explaining this, though, so I can't replicate it at other schools. Does anyone know?

Thanks, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:02, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Update: it seems the shapes have mysteriously started working correctly, so maybe there was a delay in some sort of automated process. I'm still not sure about the overlay for coord, though. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Unwinding user rename chains?
Is there an easy way to trace all the renames a user has had? See, for example, User_talk:RoySmith -- RoySmith (talk) 13:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The example you use involves an editor who created multiple accounts.
 * In the case of a single account with multiple renames, it's easier. If there were user or user talk pages prior to the move, redirects would have been created.  "Special:WhatLinksHere" from those pages should show the incoming redirects. This gives you a look forwards and backwards.
 * The logs with the target User:any name in the chain except the last one will show the NEXT name in the chain. This can lead you to the current name.
 * The user's contribution, log, and edit filter log history can sometimes reveal past names, particularly for signed messages left on talk pages, or not left if the edit was rejected by an edit filter.
 * You can also search discussion pages within Wikipedia for the user's name, assuming the user's signature has the name in it. This won't work with users with customized signatures, and it won't work for users who don't have any visible signed-discussion edits under that username.
 * If you have a person who created multiple accounts, as is the case in your example, you will have to do this for each account. SOMETIMES "what links here" from the various user and talk pages, even ones that don't exist, will help you link the two chains.  Sometimes you have to "think like a sockpuppet hunter" and use your intuition to link the chains.  Mental health warning:  "Thinking like a sockpuppet hunter" can make you feel like you are stalking someone, it's generally not good for your mental health, so only do this when absolutely necessary.
 * I hope this helps. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:29, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * tl;dnr: No, there's not an easy way, not that I am aware of.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Go to their contribs, click "oldest", restrict the selection to a discussion namespace - User talk: is probably best. Then click some early diffs until you find one with a signature, check this to see what names it links to. Back at the contribs, move forwards about one year, and click some diffs again. Repeat at intervals of a year or so. Whenever you find a change in the linked-to user/user talk pages, you may need to refine to one-month intervals to reveal any other user names used in the meantime. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Resizing fair use images
I've uploaded the fair-use book cover File:Price's Lost Campaign book cover.png for primary identification of the subject. Awhile back it got tagged for reduction, which makes sense. . The template placed in the edit by states that this resizing is normally done via bot within 24 hours, but its been about a week with nothing touching it. How does this get fixed? Hog Farm Bacon 03:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)


 * This would be User:DatBot's task 6. Last I asked about this I was told it was down since July. It seems to have come up once or twice since, but recent contribs for task 6 are pretty much empty.  wrote User_talk:DatGuy which may mean that it's purposefully disabled? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 04:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So am I going to have to try to resize this myself? The only file editing thing I have access to is Microsoft Paint, and I doubt that would be very useful for this myself.  And anyway, resizing files is a bit over my head (the file needing fixed came up when I nominated the article it appears in for GA status). Hog Farm Bacon 04:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I have resized it for you per WP:IMAGERES, but someone else is going to have to handle the other 2,600 files in . – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:53, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This task is perfect for a bot and tremendous waste of editors' time when done manually. A bot should be restored as soon as possible. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 07:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a WP:BON/WP:BOTREQ matter, not really VPT. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Issues with adding a chart
I want to make a Stacked Graph on a page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Production_and_sales_by_quarter using the data from their table. And I am using a sourcecode of a chart from this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_spaceflight so that I could only change the data and it would be ok. But it doesn't work, I need a little bit of help with this. Thanks for any advices!

My Template sourcecode:

And my attempt is here: (I tried to use this template as well but it needs a different source of data I guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Graph:Stacked)


 * The data in the groups shouldn't end with a colon (as the last value after the colon is an empty string, not a number). Remove those and you get an error with the x-legends (wrong number compared to data). If you remove any one of the colons you get a chart successfully, but its unclear to me which should be removed (the first?). — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:34, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've changed the graph and removed the first colon in the x legends. I think that is what you want. If not, at least it gives you something to work with. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Help with pywikibot/Toolforge - cron jobs
Hey there! Short question below regarding cron jobs. (Happy to provide more details if so needed.)

Following the instructions here, I know how to set up a cron job in Git Bash. Let's say I've created a bot and set it up to run every first day of every month on midday. Now let's say on January first I was sleeping on midday and so my PC wasn't on on that moment. This would cause the whole month to skip and my bot would only run on February first (if I wouldn't be sleeping until midday again). Is there any easy trick with the crontab so that if the correct time is missed, the jobs start as soon as possible and aren't entirely skipped until the next time? Asking here since the talk pages at MediaWiki about Toolforge don't seem to be getting much attention. - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , if it's on toolforge it will run regardless of if your computer is on or not. --Trialpears (talk) 00:21, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * the cronjob I've set up is literally this: 0 11 1 * * jsub [script name]. So, on every first day on every month, at midday (adjusted for my time zone), a command gets send to start the job. If the daemon is not running (my laptop is not on, practically speaking), the command won't be sent and the job won't start. Maybe this makes the situation a bit more clear to you. I just want to know how can I schedule it so if the time is missed, the daemon doesn't wait up until the new time comes but starts the job immediately, as soon as possible. - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , alright thought you set it up on toolforge, which would solve the issue. I'm afraid I personally can't help you with what you wanted then. --Trialpears (talk) 00:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks for trying! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:47, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Cron works best on computers that are always on for this reason. One solution is the cron program is a wrapper script that maintains a log file as to when the last time the program ran and this wrapper doesn't initiate the target program unless a certain amount of time has passed according to the dates maintained in the log file. The wrapper script is called by cron daily, checks the log when the last time it ran, if X days have passed then execute the target program and update the log file. -- Green  C  00:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * anacron was written for precisely this usecase. I've never tried to get it running on a non-unixlike platform, though, which is what your mention of "git bash" implies. —Cryptic 00:55, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, when searching a bit on the web about an easy solution (bear with my lack of technical terminology, I have no technical backgrounds academically) anacron was what came up more often on different forums about this problem but I don't know how I would be able to utilize it. The explanations at the pages I've sent above make no mention of it anywhere so... :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 01:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If scripting is not a problem, write a script which is started every day (or every 6 hours). It would check the date on a log file, or something like that. If the date is before the last expected run time, do whatever work is needed and update the log file. Johnuniq (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * actually I'm not that versatile in these things yet so that I could write scripts at a whim for everything I need. :P That's why I was looking for an easy solution like just adding something on the crontab. Apparently I would need anacron for this but that's where I'm stuck because I don't know how to utilize it for this particular situation.
 * let me ask you something in a silly way: In Git Bash, I type crontab -e, press Enter and the crontab can be edited to create your cron jobs. I believe I can't just type anacrontab -e, press Enter and get the same results for anacron no? - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:07, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Some problem with positional parameters
< moved from WP:HELPDESK >

Template: Why second code doesn't work and how "|=" allows it to work (although with warning about using duplicate arguments)? Is there a way to use this code in a column but without "1=" etc. and without errors? Unfortunately I couldn't find anything substantial about this. IMDJack (talk) 05:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Examples 1 and 3 are identical as far as parameters 1, 2 and 3 are concerned. For each example, the parameters are respectively "A", "B" and "C". By contrast, in example 2, parameter 1 is "A" and a newline (similar for parameters 2 and 3). In the third example, each  is setting the parameter name on the left of   to the value on the right. The parameter name is an empty string, and the value is a newline. To make example 2 work, you need to trim each parameter which I'll leave for someone used to that sort of thing, however probably using trim is all that is needed. Johnuniq (talk) 06:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It works for me, thanks,.


 * But now I no longer understand why it works) How safesubst removes whitespaces (it's not works with subst)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMDJack (talk • contribs) 09:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Nowiki bug in Visual Editor
I have been mostly off WP for a while, but I thought the bug in Visual Editor that added nowiki tags had been fixed? Apparently not; I keep running across them. (Ping me if replying; I don’t watch this page.) — Gorthian (talk) 00:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's just one of the previous discussions about it: Village pump (technical)/Archive 167. There's an edit-filter that tags them as "nowiki added". But obviously that's a legitimate bit of wikitext, so we can't block the edit outright, sorely tempted as we might be. DMacks (talk) 01:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I do see the "nowiki added" tag in these edits, along with the VE tag. I’m not sure where I got the idea that the bug had actually been fixed. Guess I was asking the same question a couple of years ago! Thanks for the link.
 * It seems to me that VE should just disallow editors from editing text at all. But I’ve never used it; maybe there’s a reason for allowing that in some cases. — Gorthian (talk) 03:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * VE adds nowiki tags around ISBNs sometimes as well. See, a bug that is three and a half years old. Also , which is either the same or a variant, and a few more situations in which VE and nowiki are mentioned together. Squishing bugs is a challenge. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Update to ICU Unicode library
Bonjour

Starting on November 16, 2020 the Wikimedia Foundation Operations team will migrate the servers running the MediaWiki application servers to a new release of the ICU Unicode library (from version 57 to 63). This unblocks some future work on upgrading the servers to a new Operating System release and will also allow the use of improved internationalisation in the future (as wikis will then be able to use features introduced by the new ICU release such as new collation definitions, and allows us to use a more recent version of Unicode in MediaWiki).

This migration will cause some unavoidable temporary user-visible impact: The sorting of some category pages will be distorted – all pages which have been updated with the new software version will use the new sorting while untouched pages still use the old sorting. As such, Ops need to run a maintenance script to update the sorting for old entries.

The distortions may last from a few hours (on medium-sized wikis), up to a day (on the largest wikis), and a few days on English Wikipedia. The start-time will depend upon when the migration script reaches each wiki.

The detailed list and the task for the technical implementation is at T264991.

Potential updates will be posted following this message.

This operation is announced in the next issues of Tech News. Other wikis impacted will also have a similar message. Please share this message where it needs to be posted!

Thank you, Trizek (WMF) (talk) 14:37, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Template:!(( broken?
resolved
 * -DePiep (talk) 19:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello,

I noticed not too long ago that the template Infobox periodic table group is not rendering correctly in Noble gas. I decided to investigate further; it seems none of the templates directly transcluded were edited, though I found one change that might explain it. In related changes, I found this edit to !(( that might have broken the links in other templates (its timestamp is pretty recent as well). As can be seen, the markup is visible in the article, and I can't find anything else to explain this.

As I'm not familiar with the technical workings of these templates, I might be completely wrong, but this is the only thing I found; it is especially conspicuous in the absence of a similar change to ))!.

Courtesy ping, please enlighten me if I misunderstood anything. Perhaps a template editor could also have a look at this? ComplexRational (talk) 16:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The edit broke the template. Mainspace Argon broken. See also here. Request immediate revert. -DePiep (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 16:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. To me,, the template in Noble gas now looks good, right? -DePiep (talk) 16:35, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good now, . Thank you, . ComplexRational (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The entire point of this template is to not have &#91;&#91; being used as part of a link (that's the first line of the documentation!), so if someone's using !(( to somehow insert wikilinks, they are doing it incorrectly and that template should be changed. Primefac (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The problematic template in this specific case appears to be Template:Periodic table (32 columns, micro)/elementcell, where the !(( and !)) appear to be superfulous and can just be replaced with and  respectively. However, when I did a search for uses of the template, I found several other usages that would break if the template were switched to HTML entities, such as Tea Party protests. The general problem is that wikilink syntax has higher priority that template syntax, and thus there is no easy way to pass unpaired square brackets to a template (  does not work). * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  21:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It never was, so actual usage prevails over imperfect documentation. Of course, one cannot change live templates this way. And are there examples of that inverted usage need? -DePiep (talk) 21:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See also the #Similar templates list in the linked doc page. -DePiep (talk) 21:29, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ... and over all these years, I have coded  for the non-wl instances. -DePiep (talk) 21:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It never was that's a load of bollocks entirely inaccurate, the template has said that since day one in 2012. Primefac (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) User:Primefac stop talking to me that way. And talk before "fixing" it. -DePiep (talk) 22:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking to you when I say your statement is entirely inaccurate, I'm saying your statement is totally inaccurate. Primefac (talk) 22:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * DePiep's statement is not that the documentation once said the current usage was allowed, but that the usage never matched the documentation, or in other words that the template never was used to avoid creation of wikilinks. That doesn't seem to be entirely incorrect to me. The question to decide here is whether to fix the code to match the documentation, or fix the documentation to match the code. You appear to be in favor of the former, and DePiep appears to be in favor of the later. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 22:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair point. And yes, I do think the template should match the documentation - typing !(( is a heck of a lot easier/shorter than <nowiki >similar templates. Primefac (talk) 23:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So it sounds like we need to fix the incorrect uses, then, to make them more robust. Hell, maybe even overhaul all of the ridiculous coding in some of those subtemplates. Primefac (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) WP:DONTFIXIT. -DePiep (talk) 22:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So first you redact your 'bollocks' PA (though surely kept it in full sight), then you continue writing the ridiculous coding (judging editors again; while it was YOU who broke hundreds of pages today). What are you doing? -DePiep (talk) 22:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as a personal attack - it was describing an edit and code, not an editor/coder. There is a fine line between robust discourse and a personal attack, but Primefac is on the correct side of the line. I would also ask that you do not mark sections as resolved when you're still discussing the issue, it is not good to have something being prematurely archived or for others to be dissuaded from involving themselves in a discussion because the section is marked as being resolved. Nick (talk) 22:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * 1. The remark was a derogative judgement on editor edits. It is about my editing while not helpful nor constructive (meaqnwhile, this same attitude earlier today broke hundreds of pages). Sure it may not look problematic for others.
 * 2. The issue was resolved with the revert. Only afterwards Primefac reopended the issue here. (btw, why not at the template's talkpage?). -DePiep (talk) 23:05, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

*As the original creator of both the template and the documentation, I must admit I am stunned at the lack of judgement shown by in editing a highly visible template when their edit summary admits that they don't understand it. Whatever your access - admin or template editor - this community seems to have made a mistake in entrusting you with that power. I hope that you have enough self-awareness to either resign your access or have a detailed plan for identifying exactly how you failed the community in this instance and how to avoid anything approaching this type of disruption in the future.


 * For the record, the original documentation I created was purely descriptive of what the template does, based on the use case that inspired the template's creation. It was neither intended nor expected to prescribe or limit the use of the template. Highly visible templates do what they do, regardless of what their documentation says. VanIsaacWS<sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">cont 01:26, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll admit, I made a mistake, though as I've mentioned above it's a little easy to see the confusion when the documentation (which is not descriptive at all of what the template really does, for the record) is diametrically opposed to the use-case function. In addition, the documentation is the primary thing that tells a user how a template should be used. Seeing the documentation not matching the template, I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that at some point a well-meaning editor had changed it from &amp;#91;&amp;#91; to [[ . The only thing I would change going forward is to do a better check of the history if I think such an edit had occurred (and yes, if I had seen that it had always been [[, I probably would have discussed it first).
 * If you think my adminship should be revoked, you are welcome to start an AN or ArbCom thread about this manner, but of all the things that could possibly get me to consider handing in my mop, this is about as far down the list as it gets. Primefac (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And for the record, I've updated both documentation pages (open and closed) to match the intended use. Primefac (talk) 01:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for doing that. Hopefully your changes will help short-circuit this sort of incident from happening again. And for the record, I wouldn't call for a desysopping unless you came to that realization yourself. I used to build houses for Habitat for Humanity, and I would tell my AmeriCorps team at the beginning of the year that unless it involved breaking a safety rule, there was no mistake they could make that wasn't immediately forgivable the first time. VanIsaacWS<sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">cont 10:12, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I must admit I am stunned by the extremely condescending overreaction, Lev!vich 06:41, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I would suggest try to rapidly acquire a healthy dose of common sense. I'm continually stunned by the allegations of bad faith and the persistent and now disruptive repeated requests for Primefac's head on a plate when they're only ever trying to improve some unclearly written, improperly used and appallingly documented code, all for the benefit of the community. It's an unpleasant message you're hearing (and a message which you'll find gets much worse should this charade of mock outrage and indignation ever be repeated) but your code and templates will be brought up to current standards and made compliant with community norms, or they'll be deleted - and they certainly will not be left in this state of needing a crystal ball to ascertain what it is they do. I suggest, in the strongest possible terms, you apologise to Primefac and either run along, or better still, you work constructively with them to get this code up to scratch with appropriate documentation. Nick (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that I neither made any assumption of bad faith, nor did I call for anyone's head on a plate. In fact, just the opposite. My assumption was of a lapse in judgement in making a good faith change, and I asked Primefac to personally examine their actions, rather than file any sort of community review. I trust Primefac to do the right thing, because only they know what happened in their mind, and what would be the best way to keep this sort of thing from happening again. If they are to be desysoped, it should be because they recognize their mistake to be systematic rather than episodic. As for updating the documentation, I don't WP:OWN this template, and I can only speak of its origins, not what it has become. It is not within my expertise to speak to how this template has been used the thousands of times by other editors, and it is not my responsibility to revisit every template I've created ten years after the fact to see whether a nuance of the documentation I started with might be misinterpreted by another editor who, by their own admission, did not accomplish the due diligence necessary when editing a template, let alone one that has been protected because of its visibility. VanIsaacWS<sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">cont 10:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it would do you good to read WP:SERIOUS and take it down a notch. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif"> qedk ( t  愛  c ) 11:12, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Template got broken by mistake &mdash; got fixed &mdash; editors want to improve the template &mdash; great, see you at Template talk / TfD &mdash; is a content issue only &mdash; DePiep (talk) 15:52, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I seriously suggest you considerto do &lt;s>..&lt;/s> problematic text that has been pointed out. Because: it is considered personal, and this is VP-Tech; deviations into personal approach is not helpful. Also, in reply to you the editor has admitted a mistake: issue solved. Future improvements are still about content only (template development), and so should be supported but could be talked elsewhere. -DePiep (talk) 20:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * My apologies for straying from the technical in this noticeboard. I should have brought it up on their personal talk page. VanIsaacWS<sup style="margin-left:-3.0ex">cont 21:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

es lost
In two recent edits, both were tagged Undo's, my manual editsummary did not end up in the hist record. (first time experience ever). ,. Then, in a non-Undo (semi-nulledit to get my es in hist), it got lost again. Any idea? -DePiep (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Now tests OK . Let's forget about it? (I will be back if it reoccurs). -DePiep (talk) 22:16, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Preview broken?
Whenever I click on "Show preview" the preview is not at the top of the page but it's at the bottom of the page. (preview here) Editing box here
 * For Example
 * Old

Editing box here (preview here)
 * New

Is it just me? CAPTAIN MEDUSA  talk  12:57, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * CAPTAIN MEDUSA, not sure why this would be newly happening to you, but there is a preference on the preferences Editing tab for it called "Show preview before edit box" which you may somehow have unchecked. --Izno (talk) 13:53, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I somehow managed to uncheck that. Thanks for the help! :)  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  15:11, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Why is this article not getting indexed by search engines?
Hello, I hope this is the right place to ask my question. About a week ago the article Radeon RX 6000 series was created from scratch. I would expect this article to be indexed/ listed by many of the popular search engines, especially Google and Bing. However this does not seem to be the case:


 * https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Radeon+RX+6000+series%22+site%3Aen.wikipedia.org
 * https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Radeon+RX+6000+series%22+site%3Aen.wikipedia.org
 * https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Radeon+RX+6000+series%22+site%3Aen.wikipedia.org

The article Radeon RX 6000 series is not listed in any of these three searches on Google, Bing and DuckDuckGo. Bing and DuckDuckGo at least list the page Talk:Radeon RX 6000 series. Since I think it is unlikely that Google or Bing are not working correctly I suspect it's an issue with Wikipedia or the article itself. What's the reason none of these three search engines list the article in their search results? How can we fix this issue? Thanks for your help, --Soluvo (talk) 23:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , unreviewed articles newer than 90 days are not indexed (see Controlling search engine indexing). It will become indexes as soon as a new page reviewer looks over the page and reviews it, which may take anywhere from an hour to 3 months. --Trialpears (talk) 00:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your answer, I wasn't aware of this mechanism. Can I ask someone or make a request somewhere so the page will be reviewed faster? --Soluvo (talk) 11:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going to put on my "cynic" hat and ask "why? what is so special about this article that it should line-jump?"  This is a rhetorical question, please don't answer it. Instead, ask yourself "if I were a new page patroller and I saw a message like this, would I think someone was trying to game the system/jump to the head of the line?"  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  16:15, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You are right, there is nothing fundamentally special about this article. I was just a little bit sad that when people search for the article name in a search engine that it could not be found. That's what I wanted to change... --Soluvo (talk) 17:53, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Petscan is down
Hi. I'm getting the following message when trying to run a query on Petscan:

Server(ServerError { code: 1290, message: "The MariaDB server is running with the --read-only option so it cannot execute this statement", state: "HY000" })

It was fine yesterday. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 20:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Toolsdb is under maintenance, which will likely break any tool that writes to that database. See . They weren't able to give an exact estimate but I imagine it'll be back up before too long (maintenance started ~4 hours ago). &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  20:35, 10 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Cool - thanks MA!  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 20:41, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Quick template help
I am apparently bad at understanding H:TEMPLATE so I'm hoping that I could get more help here. I'm anticipating responding to two people at once on a different indent level, and tried creating a template that is basically an icon and text string to have it stand out more. I want it to look like the following in two different situations:


 * When parameter 1 isn't defined
 * System-users.svg Multireply


 * When parameter 1 is defined
 * System-users.svg Multireply to User 1 and User 2

My current code for it right now is Multireply :

It seems like the problem is with the #if parser. What do I have to do to get "to " to appear only when parameter 1 is given a value? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  23:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You want, not  . The latter doesn't work because   default to the literal string   if no parameter is given, which is treated as truthy by   * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  23:58, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks so much! I'm going to have to take some time to learn more about parsers. Multireply looks perfect now. As an aside, I'm guessing that I'd have to use something like sp or nbsp to force a space in the conditional statement? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  00:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Mark blocked script not working
As of today the script used to mark blocked editors with a strike through (User:NuclearWarfare/Mark-blocked script.js) has stopped working for me. Anyone else having the same issue? -- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 19:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This feature is also provided by a gadget, in Special:Preferences. The 'strike out usernames' gadget is still working, at least for me. EdJohnston (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I didn't realize how much I used it until it was gone.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 19:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you're as old as me, Big Yellow Taxi. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:37, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Or old at heart, as I am :-) ... Graham 87 03:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * that personal script (User:NuclearWarfare/Mark-blocked script.js) just turns around and slow loads the gadget; I suggest you remove it from your common.js file and just select the gadget directly in preferences. — xaosflux  Talk 04:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-46
<section begin="technews-2020-W46"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Changes later this week
 * There is no new MediaWiki version this week.

Future changes
 * You can see reference previews. This shows a preview of the footnote when you hover over it. This has been a beta feature. It will move out of beta and be enabled by default. There will be an option not to use it. The developers are looking for small or medium-sized wikis to be the first ones. You can let them know if your wiki is interested.
 * From November 16 the categories will not be sorted in order for a short time. This is because the developers are upgrading to a new version of the internationalisation library. They will use a script to fix the existing categories. This can take a few hours or a few days depending on how big the wiki is. You can read more.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W46"/> 15:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * This will be the third (or perhaps fourth) time in just over 10 years that they've decided to change the category collating sequence (case-insensitivity, accented letters sorted with the plain letters, numbers sorted numerically, and now the above which is vague on details). Stand by for new threads here along the lines of "why is Foo sorting before Bar?", these will also appear at the various WT: and Help talk: pages that concern categories. As with the previous occasions, I expect that the process of re-collating will take a lot longer than the WMF estimates before it settles down. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 10:29, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It took about nine days in 2016 and was estimated to take about eight days in 2018. I don't know if the process is similar this time, but I would not be surprised to see it take a week to get sorted (I couldn't resist). – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Technically, they are not changing the collation algorithm itself this time, but only updating the definitions of the collations. They have to do this about every 2-3 years. Last times this was done at the same time as the changes to the specific collation algorithm that was in use (which you described), to reduce disruption as much as possible.
 * Due to the technical implementation of collations, any such change however has the possibility to change the numerical assignment of characters within a collation and this takes time to propagate.
 * I expect that the duration for a change like this decreases year over year, as right now, computer power is likely growing quicker than the amount of articles in categories makes this process slow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Formatnum will also change due to the ICU update, technical details at https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSebyOO1dNqZEPvZBn5qbaB-Zkn0IVLk6t0QgrmhDpzLybogT5JcuDz7xKUR8sfDYoDG5hC7TZAYnen/pub --Snaevar (talk) 22:52, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

New commons images
Hi, I've notice over the last day or so from articles popping up in CAT:MISSFILE that some newly uploaded images on commons are not being able to be used here. Does anyone have any idea why, and is this something that should be reported somewhere? For example John A. Notte Jr. that tries to use File:John Notte (1961).png that shows as a red-link but if you go to c:File:John Notte (1961).png it was uploaded a couple of hours ago. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See bug T267668. Right now the most likely coulprit is the cache change the developers did recently.--Snaevar (talk) 18:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

A section of this article does not appear correctly on my iPhone.
I added this section, Reading achievement: national and international reports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_to_read#Reading_achievement:_national_and_international_reports

It all looks fine on my MacBook, but not on my iPhone. 1) The sub-headings (===) are not shown on the iPhone "Contents" view. 2) Everything below my chart does not appear on my iPhone.

This is way above my pay-grade. Perhaps the chart is the problem. I can move it to the end if necessary. John NH (talk) 14:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The div tag has no closing counterpart. I'm not sure if it can be causing your problem, though. --CiaPan (talk) 14:10, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that solved the problem. Thank you. John NH (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Glad to help. Happy editing! --CiaPan (talk) 21:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Table
How to fix "Expression error: Missing operand for *."? Eurohunter (talk) 16:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * fixed using certref (diff). davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  16:49, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Eurohunter (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk page archiving problem
Hello, the talk page Talk:John Brennan (CIA officer) is archiving to Talk:John O. Brennan because the Lowercase sigmabot III parameter wasn't updated when the page was renamed. Can someone help rescue all the old archives and get them to display on the current talk page? - Mnnlaxer &#124; talk  &#124; stalk 20:31, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Done. I hope so... --CiaPan (talk) 20:48, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I thought it would be harder than that. - Mnnlaxer &#124; talk  &#124; stalk 22:54, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It was, actually. :) Step one was to find the original location of the article, its talk page and the talkpage's archive, step two was moving it to a new location (in which process I made a mistake in the destination page name, but managed to fix that – you can see it here: ), and the last one was to update the archive destination path in the Misza bot's configuration in case it makes some archiving, too (Special:Diff/988219602). Just to be on a safe side. --CiaPan (talk) 23:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , User:MiszaBot/config is the configuration for . Long time ago Lowercase sigmabot III took over the task from MiszaBot, which went offline. See first paragraph of the documentation. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Ah, so even though I was wrong about bot(s), I did it right with the bot's config, right? :) CiaPan (talk) 00:17, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , yep. The template's name is a tad misleading, but it was kept for compatibility with previously configured talk pages. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for explanation. :) Happy editing! CiaPan (talk) 00:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Fix code
Can somebody help me fix Eirik Kristoffersens ribbons, so it's similiar with the Norwegian page? --Znuddel (talk) 20:06, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The template used at that page does not appear to have an English Wikipedia equivalent. I recommend copying a page like Colin Powell, or ask for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I tried to copy the section from Colin Powell, but something is off. Can somebody take a look into it? --Znuddel (talk) 10:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've fixed some syntax errors. What's left is that some of the decoration names don't tie up with uploaded images of the decoration. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Articles from watchlist
Is there any way to mark articles I'm already watchinng from category I'm cureently at? Eurohunter (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Add button to close article
It would be helpful to have a way to close an article from the bottom instead of having to scroll back up to the top. Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask but I have virtually no technical expertise. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:9880:3367:FFB0:49B9:70F5:E6A3:8FCA (talk) 17:20, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If "an article" is a web page then a way to close a web page is entirely up to your web browser software. Not to the web page content that you're looking at. --Malyacko (talk) 20:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In most browsers, will close the current tab. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And Ctrl-W. Johnuniq (talk) 22:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder what browser environment it is where one has to scroll to the top to close the window. DMacks (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the editor wants to get back to the search box quicker. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

File:Nihon Odai Ichiran sample page.jpg
Hi! I noticed that this file is used on both vi.wiki and en.wiki, therefore I wanted to move the file to commons. However, the source link provided in the current version doesn't seem to be functional. Would you mind helping me out? Regards. Buiquangtu (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

How did this happen?
Does anyone know what is going on here? On my screen there is some kind of odd track mark - kinda like a bicycle tire might leave. There is another one here. Some kind of vandalism I've not seen before. I'm hoping it doesn't become a trend but I would like to know what needs to be done to remove it in case it starts getting added to article space. Thanks ahead of time to those taking a look at this. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 05:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's standard spam with sideways Unicode and should be rev-deleted as purely disruptive. --Izno (talk) 05:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Those are the same links. Did you mean to paste something else for 'another one'? --Izno (talk) 05:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Second one is here. Sorry about that . Can you show me what kind of edit was made to add that to those two sections? If not no worries. Do I just report it to an admin for r/d? Thanks for the explanation I. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 05:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, in a wikipage it's 'revert'. In a history page it's 'rev deletion'. Not much more to it than that. I would just google "sideways Unicode" and go from there. --Izno (talk) 05:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Alternative link. I believe this lot are Combining Diacritical Marks. We should be able to use an edit filter if there's a way to reduce false positives. WP:EFR is the place to request it. And yes, these are generally revdel'd whenever they pester a page history. -- zzuuzz (talk) 05:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The last two diffs still show the disruptive code. Did you want to revdel those as well? —[ Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 04:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Category redirects with ghost contents
Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories has recently started filling up with a lot of category redirects that on investigation appear empty yet are listed with contents. Null edits are not fixing the problem. Can anyone detect the cause of this and how to fix it? Timrollpickering (talk) 11:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia scraped to make offline .slob dictionary
Aard2 is an offline viewer for a .slob archive (which is analogous to a .zim). The guy(s) that make the .slobs run (on various WM sites, including enwiki) and advise to run mwscrape, which "downloads rendered articles from MediaWiki sites via web API" into a CouchDB, for later offline .slob conversion. But scraping wikipedia is ill-advised per Database_download Is this the right place to report this? --62.98.115.114 (talk) 06:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not advisable, but there isn't exactly a better option at the moment (the database dumps still need to be parsed and rendered, which means setting up MediaWiki locally). They must comply with Robot policy, which includes setting a descriptive user agent, using cached and compressed pages, and operating at a reasonable request rate. Work is currently ongoing to provide a better content-export service, including HTML dumps, as part of the Okapi project. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 21:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Looking for maintenance help
Hi all. As anyone who's seen my talk page lately knows, I've been swamped with maintenance work on my various scripts, tools, bots, etc due to being busy IRL. Rather than make everyone keep waiting for updates, I'm asking here if anyone would like to help out. The programming languages I've used for the projects are Python, Javascript, and Rust. Benefits of helping out: more experience with the API and the joy of making many users' lives easier and more productive. Extra incentive: this might help free up time for me to work on section-watchlist. Thanks everyone! Enterprisey (talk!) 10:02, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm sure I could help with Python. My Javascript skills are laughable, and I've always been curious about Rust but never touched it. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:14, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Awesome! I'll respond on your talk page. Enterprisey (talk!) 09:23, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I can help out with AFCH when I get time. I seem to recall quite a few bugs in there and its much talked about inability to not duplicate existing project tags on talk pages. Can you give me merge access to its repo? – SD0001  (talk) 13:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , sure thing, and thanks! What's your GitHub username (or you can email it to me)? Enterprisey (talk!) 10:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * this one we've interacted there a couple of times! – SD0001  (talk) 12:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Enterprisey (talk!) 02:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

503 errors
I've been getting lots of 503 errors these last few days. Seems to happen when I am editing a whole article and not a section of an article. Don't say the solution is to only edit sections, as the nature of the edits I'm making mean I have to edit the whole article. Mjroots (talk) 09:36, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Any additional information you have would be useful. Was there a specific error message.  What URL were you on when you got it? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * - I've been editing the List of shipwrecks in November 1869, List of shipwrecks in October 1869 and List of shipwrecks in September 1869 when this has happened. Just tried to save an edit on the November list and it's happened again. Message given is Request from 2a02:c7d:c50:c400:882e:902e:b6a:2ba7 via cp3056 cp3056, Varnish XID 987116681 Error: 503, Backend fetch failed at Thu, 12 Nov 2020 07:04:32 GMT. Mjroots (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I wasn't able to reproduce the problem with a null edit on those pages, can I as you to comment on the phabricator task with some more details about what actions resulted in the server-side error? GLavagetto (WMF) (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , OK, I think I know what's going on. I've seen this before, but I can't remember what the other page was.  I think the problem is the large number of flag icons.  The fix in the other case was to replace the flags with some other representation of the image.  SVG, maybe?  Or perhaps it was unicode flag glyphs?  Let me do some more research on this before making any specific recommendation, though.
 * FWIW, that error message is coming from Varnish (software). I'm guessing it's fetching so much data at once, something is timing out. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:34, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Found it. Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_180.  The fix there was to use emojis instead of SVG images.  That may or may not help you here. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:07, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, the flag problem again. That is partly why the lists from 1820-69 have had to be split by month - exceeding the maximum number of templates allowed. I can change them if necessary. At least it's not an issue with my new laptop. Mjroots (talk) 17:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If the problem is WP:PEIS, replacing  (USA 🇺🇸 united states) with   (USA ) or even   (USA ) should help.  If it's another problem, it might or might not help.   You are trading one problem for another - module execution is not free. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
 * - replacing one template with another doesn't resolve the fact that there is a limit on the number of templates that can be used in an article. If it is a template limit issue, the solution is to replace the commonest flag template with its equivalent text.  →  . However, the article isn't showing the loss of references issue caused by exceeding the number of templates allowed which happened with the 1830s year lists when that issue came up. Mjroots (talk) 06:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a hard maximum number of template trasclusions per se - or, if there is, other WP:Template limits are likely to be hit first. Using modules or module-based templates can help in some cases, notably WP:PEIS, if it's done right. Re-writing the templates can also help.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't think we're hitting a hard limit. I copy-pasted the November article into User:RoySmith/sandbox/List of shipwrecks in November 1869 and then replicated text to make it even larger.  I'm at about 2x the original size now, and I'm not getting the 503 errors when I edit it.  To me, that smells like a timeout kind of thing. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * believe me, there is a limit. When it is exceeded the last called templates are ignored and this happens (go to bottom of article). Mjroots (talk) 19:14, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * When templates such as Template:Reflist are showing as links to that template, and not as the expected list of refs, that's a classic case of WP:PEIS. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As Redrose said, it hit the "Post‐expand include size" limit. You can hit that limit with many templates or only a few dozen or theoretically only one, depending on how big the template is. You can see if this is the problem by viewing the page's source in your web browser and searching for "Post‐expand include size".  If it's at or near the limit and you are seeing templates not "expand," that's your problem.  In this case, the page source shows Post‐expand include size: 2097152/2097152 bytes.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  21:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , That's weird. Which page did you try that on?  When I try it, I get:
 * List of shipwrecks in November 1869: 602,768/2,097,152 bytes
 * List of shipwrecks in October 1869: 856,097/2,097,152 bytes
 * List of shipwrecks in September 1869: 678,934/2,097,152 bytes
 * I assume the two numbers are actual / maximum? -- RoySmith (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I used the old edit in the edit history that linked to, List_of_shipwrecks_in_1837 dated  09:07, 11 June 2017.  Yes, they are the actual and maximum.  Sometimes the actual will be slightly below the maximum if the next template to be expanded would put it over the limit.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  22:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Thanks. Yeah, I'm seeing the same on that diff.  I updated the phab ticket with your findings. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume the two numbers are actual / maximum? -- RoySmith (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I used the old edit in the edit history that linked to, List_of_shipwrecks_in_1837 dated  09:07, 11 June 2017.  Yes, they are the actual and maximum.  Sometimes the actual will be slightly below the maximum if the next template to be expanded would put it over the limit.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  22:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Thanks. Yeah, I'm seeing the same on that diff.  I updated the phab ticket with your findings. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

So, it doesn't seem to be a PEIS issue then? It wouldn't be a web browser issue, would it? I use Firefox. Mjroots (talk) 06:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Bad logo appearance at 12 Hours of Sebring
(Not sure if more appropriate here or Graphics Lab)

On 12 Hours of Sebring, File:12HSebring logo.png is in the infobox. The image itself looks fine on the file page, but I think the image elements have a white outline (which looks fine on a white background), but is very bad in appearance on the slightly grey infobox background. Any recommendations for making it look better? Chris857 (talk) 23:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The Graphics Lab is probably the 2nd-best option, assuming the best option - fixing it yourself - is not an option. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  23:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Error in article related to Template:wikidata
PHP has an error in the infobox that comes from Template:Wikidata producing an output not expected by Template:start date and age. Not sure what is to blame, probably Template:Wikidata because the template returns two entries in contradiction to its documentation. Details on the talk page. --mfb (talk) 23:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I added single to the line in the infobox. Without it, Wikidata was returning "29 October 2020; 29 October 2020".  This fix should be considered temporary, if the problem is on the Wikidata side, it needs to be fixed there.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  23:43, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Link to Commons
Hakari (river) has a link to Wikimedia Commons, but it doesn't work; Category:Hagari River does exist. --Io Herodotus (talk) 10:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Sports links with FIG gymnastics links
Hi there, the template inserts links to the FIG gymnastics profile page, either when the FIG license number is known or when the FIG biography ID is known, see for example: Audrys Nin Reyes. However, when both are known it inserts both and they both link the reader to the same external page. Would it perhaps make sense to adjust the logic so that it only picks one? - Simeon (talk) 15:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This comes from the configuration in Module:External_links/conf/Sports which supports dozens of external links and Module:External links which has no concept of links that might end up at the same website. Is one of the entries a superset of the other? Everyone with a license has a biography or vice versa? In that case it would be possible to just remove that type of link from the configuration. --mfb (talk) 07:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining where these links are configured, I can take look to see if it's doable to change this but equally it might need someone with more experience in this area :) As far as I understand, all gymnasts have a FIG license number and their profile page can be accessed using either that license number or a biography number which just exists to identify that page (the FIG license number also serves to identify the gymnast at a competition). However, I can't always find the license number as I may not have a list of gymnasts that competed at a competition (with their license number) so I might only have the biography ID as that's part of the link that Google decided to index (i.e., and then I can add the FIG biography ID from that link to Wikidata). So ideally, there would be some if/then/else logic that picks either one but not both.- Simeon (talk) 11:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wayward break
There is a wayward break or space after the boron template in Kari-Kari (caldera) that is creating a phantom page break but I can't see it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There was an extra newline in the template, which I have removed. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Mysandbox
i have put dyk template in my sandbox is this cool? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baratiiman (talk • contribs) 15:13, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Compare two articles for differences
I recently discovered two articles which at first glance appear the same, apart from the titles. I have proposed them for merging. Is there a tool which can compare the two to highlight any differences? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be easiest just to put the wikitext of one into the edit window of the other and click "show changes"? &#8209; Iridescent 14:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You can also use Special:ComparePages. Enter the two page names there, leaving the "Revision" boxes blank. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * and thank you both. DuncanHill (talk) 16:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * and thank you both. DuncanHill (talk) 16:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

VE error with spaces and full stops
Came across a user looking for help on their talk page, it involves some spaces appearing before punctuation that they cannot seem to get rid of (but I can). Any thoughts or assistance there would be appreciated. If it turns out to be a VE error, though, might be worth updating here as well so others are aware. Primefac (talk) 15:46, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , my first thought is some sort of installed browser extension, like grammarly (probably not that one, but something like it). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

One source, many pages
I've looked all over and can't find how I used to use one ref name for a source with many pages but displayed the source number with a colon and the page number following. I thought this was sfn but none of the examples show this method of displaying.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  18:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you looking for rp? * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 18:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That's it.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  18:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * and r – see WP:REFPAGE — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 19:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I often forget and have trouble finding that template myself. I recently added Citation page as a redirect to it, but not sure that'll help. It looks like there may be a software improvement coming soon that'd make the issue moot. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 08:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Update to ICU Unicode library
Starting on November 16, we will migrate the servers running the MediaWiki application servers to a new release of the ICU Unicode library (International Components for Unicode) (from version 57 to 63).

This unblocks some future work on upgrading the servers to a new Operating System release and will also allow the use of improved internationalisation in the future (as wikis will then be able to use features introduced by the new ICU release such as new collation definitions, and allows us to use a more recent version of Unicode in MediaWiki).

This migration will cause some unavoidable temporary user-visible impact: The sorting of some category pages will be distorted – all pages which have been updated with the new software version will use the new sorting while untouched pages still use the old sorting. As such, we need to run a maintenance script to update the sorting for old entries.

The distortions may last from a few hours (on medium-sized wikis), up to a day (on the largest wikis), and a few days on English Wikipedia. The start-time will depend upon when the migration script reaches each wiki.

This affects 149 wikis (including eight out of the ten biggest Wikipedias). The detailed list and the task for the technical implementation is at T264991.

Thank you. Trizek (WMF) 14:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-47
<section begin="technews-2020-W47"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Listings on category pages are sorted on each wiki for that language using a library. For a brief period on 16 November, changes to categories will not be sorted correctly for most languages. This is because the developers are upgrading to a new version of the library. They will then use a script to fix the existing categories. This will take a few hours or a few days depending on how big the wiki is. You can read more.

Changes later this week
 * If you merged two pages in a namespace where pages can't redirect this used to break the merge history. This will now be fixed.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * The Community Wishlist Survey is now open for proposals. The survey decides what the Community Tech team will work on. You can post proposals from 16 to 30 November. You can vote on proposals from 8 December to 21 December.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W47"/> 15:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Technically, the Community Wishlist Survey opens for proposals at 18:00 UTC, one hour from this time stamp. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Request for the Current Event WikiProject Banner
So currently, the Current Event WikiProject's banner moves left to be in line with other WikiProject banners. The Current Event WikiProject doesn't rate articles (Like every other WikiProject) as we only work with articles for a short time. Due to that short time we work with articles, the WikiProject's banner is placed above other WikiProject banners (Makes sense, since we deal with new/current articles that change all the time).

Is there a way to get the WikiProject's banner to be centered instead of a "left center"? See Talk:Hurricane Iota as an example of the "left center".

Thanks, Elijahandskip (talk) 16:24, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That 'left-center' is the result of a deliberate change at Template talk:WPBannerMeta/Archive 13. You will probably want to discuss possibly returning to the old behavior at the main talk page there. --Izno (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Help needed adding new tooltips to RefToolbar
Some help is needed at MediaWiki talk:RefToolbarMessages-en.js. There is consensus to add some additional tooltips to RefToolbar (the box that comes up where you fill out citation information), but editing the MediaWiki page wasn't enough to make them appear, and I'm not sure what else needs to be done to complete the implementation. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 08:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * commented. – SD0001  (talk) 13:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks; much appreciated! We just need an interface editor/admin to implement the edit request demonstrated in the sandbox now, which should hopefully be straightforward. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 19:10, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

axis on charts
Hello

I have been trying to create charts using Template:Graph:Chart for rugby rankings in place of continually uploading new images, but I have been having issues with formatting the axes. If anyone can help out, much appreciated. The thread is here: Template_talk:Graph:Chart --Bob247 (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Bulleted lists in references
Something I've noticed at several pages (most recently Biblical criticism, currently in FLC) is that there doesn't seem to be a good way to create bulleted lists within a reference/note without creating an unsightly line break (as happens at notes 1 and 7 at that page). Is there a workaround for this, or something we could change to fix the issue, or is the behavior intentional? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by unsightly line break? Ruslik_ Zero 08:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See "as happens at notes 1 and 7 at that page". Johnuniq (talk) 08:51, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * you mean the empty line ? Well references are inline text. If you put a block item (a list in this case) then that is not allowed/expected by HTML but it will also clear the previous line (as all block elements doe). There is little that can be done about this problem, other than changing the implementation of references. There is a ticket about that somewhere in phabricator.. I think T49544 (although the comments are dated, since this works better since remexhtml replaced Tidy). It's rather complex to create the behavior you want, because the style of the reference backlinks is to be inline on the 'same' line as the rest of the content, and that will clash with the positioning logic of the bullets of a list etc. Personally I don't think there is a good way to account for that, so i'd say.. Just put an introductory line before your list. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * refs 5 & 6 show how it may be made neater. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that works in some situations, but not others; I think for 1 and 7 it's not a single author. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * More generic text still works for that case as in 5 and 6. One can explain why so many notes are together in 1 and 7 if putting them together is seen as necessary. --Izno (talk) 03:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

New Feature: Watchlist Expiry
Hello, everyone! The Community Tech team will be releasing a new feature, which is called Watchlist Expiry. With this feature, you can optionally select to watch a page for a temporary period of time. This feature was developed in response to the #7 request from the 2019 Community Wishlist Survey. To find out when the feature will be enabled on your wiki, you can check out the release schedule on Meta-Wiki. To test out the feature before deployment, you can visit mediawiki.org or testwiki. Once the feature is enabled on your wiki, we invite you to share your feedback on the project talk page. For more information, you can refer to the documentation page. Thank you in advance, and we look forward to reading your feedback! --IFried (WMF) (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like we'll be getting it December 1. Hurrah! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks IFried, that's great news. One part of the proposal didn't get implemented: allowing editors to change the default expiry period.  It's stuck at indefinite.  For me, that enhancement would transform the feature, so that pages I edit incidentally only get watched for a month but I can manually add important pages forever.  I think the change would be easy once the main feature is released.  Is that worth raising as a 2021 proposal? Certes (talk) 12:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , +1 to a default expiry. And, yeah, this is a great feature either way. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Suggested at Community Wishlist Survey 2021/Watchlists/Default expiry for watchlist entries. Certes (talk) 17:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Error
For at least 24 hours I have been getting "Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem. Please try again in a few minutes." Is this just me, and what is causing this?-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 18:05, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This hasn't happened for me. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:19, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I should point out that this is intermittent, but it has been happening quite a lot. The server seems slow and laggy at times.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 21:31, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't noticed anything on my end. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Visual Editor should create unique ref names
Exhibit A --Palosirkka (talk) 13:16, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a bug in VE that has been reported, FWIW. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Sweet, thank you ! --Palosirkka (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Night Winds, collection
Can someone move Night Winds, collection to Night Winds (the latter is currently a redirection to the author) Thanks GrahamHardy (talk) 23:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:RM. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Will do, it rings a bell Thanks GrahamHardy (talk) 00:01, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Maplink markers not appearing in article space
I'm updating List of Smithsonian museums and am switching out an old satellite photo of the National Mall with a map. A weird issue has happened where, while using template:Maplink, the markers do not appear. They are there on the edit screen and when I copy and paste the article or section into my sandbox, but they are not appearing on the main article. I'm assuming it is just some bad syntax I created somewhere but I cant find it. I also find it weird that the markers appear while editing, when the elements are copied to a sandbox, and also once you click on the map and it bring you to a screen of just that. This is what makes me wonder if it is an issue with the template and not with anything I have done. Any help would be amazing.--Found5dollar (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC) Crossposted here--Found5dollar (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Searching for pound signs
I recently came cross n article that had used the string  where   should have been used. I changed it, and decided to search for similar cases.

But it seems that the  character cannot be searched for; a search for   seems to find every page including , even with quote marks, and even using.

Can someone suggest a work-around, please? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Did this not work:
 * – 150ish results
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) A search for  works.  (insource: with slashes uses a regex rather than the fuzzier matching of quotes.  The initial UK improves efficiency.)  Certes (talk) 14:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The ISO 4217 currency code is GBP. GB£ is just as invalid as UK£. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Were these attempts at using an ISO code, you would be correct. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible to change the edit summary field in Twinkle when welcoming users?
I am using Twinkle to leave customised welcome notes on the talk pages of users who have signed up for an online edit-a-thon on climate change. See for example here: User talk:Rickeyre. Someone has complained on my talk page (see here) that the edit summary field says "Welcome to Wikipedia!" instead of saying "Welcome to online edit-a-thon". Therefore my question: is it possible to change the edit summary content when using Twinkle with a customised welcome note? Personally, I don't think this is a big deal but the other person said I should ask her for advice. EMsmile (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It is presently not possible. Changes to twinkle are discussed at WT:TW, though this doesn't sound important enough to be worth changing. – SD0001  (talk) 11:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, User:SD0001, I'll copy my question to there. I agree it's not an important change but I'll ask there anyhow just in case it's super easy to do. EMsmile (talk) 13:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

References and punctuation
What is going on here? I originally was told "references after punctuation," and now it seems that WikiCleanerBot is going around switching them to before. Is this a policy change? It seems like something that affects a lot of articles (certainly any that I have worked on). If it is a policy change, how was it communicated? Peter Flass (talk) 15:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , it shouldn't be a policy change; H:FOOT still considers references immediately after punctuation to be correct. It seems to be a code error. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 )  16:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think a bot is malfunctioning, please contact its operator first - if that doesn't lead to a resolution you can start a discussion at WP:BOTN. — xaosflux  Talk 16:35, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have any example of a malfunction? My bot is applying MOS by putting references after punctuation... The edit comment is "Reference before punctuation" because it's the problem that is fixed... --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Examples are always good, per the box at the top. Without a diff (or similar), we can't see what happened, so can't judge if there is a problem or not. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As I expected, it was a false alarm. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 08:02, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's unclear to me whether the ambiguous edit summary was a factor here, but it certainly would not hurt to remove the ambiguity. Nor would it be unduly difficult to insert the word "Fix" at the beginning. One or two minutes' effort and you're done for eternity. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  08:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was thinking about that too. I changed the configuration, here's an example of the result. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 11:10, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Improvement. Thanks. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  15:45, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Need to remove broken links to EBSCOhost Connection
At, I noted that there are many broken links to EBSCOhost Connection in cited sources in Wikipedia articles. did some research and reported that EBSCO says that EBSCOhost Connection is deprecated and there is no way to remap the broken links to new URLs. Would someone be willing to write and run a bot to remove the broken links to EBSCOhost Connection (URLs beginning with http://connection.ebscohost.com) from cited sources in Wikipedia articles? Thanks, Biogeographist (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This something for WP:URLREQ. I'd like to do more research and verify there is another way to save them. Worst case are archive URLs so they wouldn't need to be removed. Example. -- Green  C  17:13, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Copied to Link rot/URL change requests/Archives/2020/November. -- Green  C  17:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I responded at . Biogeographist (talk) 17:33, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

BAG nomination notice
Hi! This is a procedural notification that I've requested to join the Bot Approvals Group. Any comments would be appreciated at Bot Approvals Group/nominations/SD0001. Thanks, – SD0001  (talk) 17:55, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Contributions says user exists, xtools says no?
If I go to Special:Contributions/BasketballGOD12, I see four edits for the user. The "Edit count" link at the bottom links to https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia.org/BasketballGOD12, but when I click that, xtools says, "The requested user does not exist". My brain hurts. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Special:CentralAuth/BasketballGOD12 exists, xtools works off of a replica that is likely behind. — xaosflux  Talk 19:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Lua error: not enough memory on COVID-19 pandemic in India
Hi, on COVID-19 pandemic in India in place of most of the References and all External links it shows Lua error: not enough memory, i don't have any idea about it, and thought someone here may know about it. Thanks - Mayankj429 (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * short diagnosis - this page has too many expensive templates on it, especially inside of references; short answer - split the article or reduce some templates. Long answer - it is hard to profile the best place to optimize some of these templates, see T188492 and related tasks for a lot more on this. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:11, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps splitting the COVID-19_pandemic_in_India section to Testing_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_India would be a good section to split, it is heavily referenced. — xaosflux  Talk 15:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * N.B. many of the COVID articles are having similar issues with tons of reference templates making them fail in other ways, usually in to Category:Pages_where_template_include_size_is_exceeded. — xaosflux  Talk 15:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The India page is not as bad, but many many of the COVID pages suffer from PROSELINE problems that could also do with culling and summarizing, cutting out references to minor or interim reports in favor of summarizing and final reports. --M asem (t) 15:23, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In this case the post-expand include size is well within limits (1003636/2097152 bytes), unlike the other covid pages where the post-expand include size exceeds 2MB and causes the citation templates to fail. Doesn't this means that the Lua memory used for the citations is not being released on each citation use and accumulates? Iirc, Lua's memory management is automatic and there no way of running the garbage collector programmatically. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:57, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * this isn't a template-expand byte problem, but it is very similar in that there are many many templates that are all calling modules and exceeding the memory thresholds for page processing; iirc all of these are using the same memory pool during page rendering, not a separate pool per instance. — xaosflux  Talk 16:01, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Removing the infobox reduces memory from over the 50 MB limit to 29 MB. It also reduces the rendering time by 67%.  Could the infobox be simplified? Certes (talk) 16:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Module:WikidataIB may be "expensive" there. — xaosflux  Talk 16:03, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * any thoughts on that? — xaosflux  Talk 16:09, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In Module:WikidataIB using less of local variables for wikidata functions would help.
 * Module:Wd is also used on Covid-19 in India, I shaved a bit of the time and memory the sandbox version uses in this diff.--Snaevar (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * yes, WikidataIB is quite heavyweight for doing jobs like returning a single value out of 300 or so values because it reads and processes each value before passing the list of values to Template:P-1. The infobox itself uses 29.63 MB. Disabling the calls to WikidataIB reduces that to 15.74 MB, I checked by trying just the eight WikidataIB calls alone and they used 12.64 MB. The fastest and cheapest way of getting values is to use, so I've written a string function to return the last value in a list. I suggest replacing the eight WikidataIB calls like this: Change
 * which produces (4.22 MB and 0.440 seconds)
 * to:  which produces  (548 KB and 0.264 seconds)
 * I agree that stuff like  increases the memory footprint. I can only say I wasn't the instigator of that sort of "tidying". When the module was first written, we usually saw only a few values for any property. Now that Wikidata has expanded dramatically, it's not uncommon for some properties to run to several hundred values. Working on Template:Cite Q, I came across an entry for a document with about 500 signatories (which exceeds the 400 entries that Lua can load to link their names), so I'm looking for optimisations at present. --RexxS (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WikidataIB provides functions other than simply fetching a value, and it should not be replaced without careful consideration. I'm pretty sure that WikidataIB, by default, fetches only sourced statements from Wikidata, per the rough consensus at this 2018 RFC. The proposed #property code could change that behavior. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * when we're talking about coding into templates, I agree with you 100%, but the use here is to retrieve the last figure from one of the properties of within a locally-supplied parameter value for use in a single article. The values are updated daily on Wikidata and are sourced to https://www.mohfw.gov.in/ so I'm not too worried about importing unsourced data in this particular case. The problem reported here will only get worse as the daily updates grow relentlessly on Wikidata and we'll eventually get to the stage where Lua won't cut it, which is why I'm considering using the built-in functions that I assume are coded in either C or php. --RexxS (talk) 23:51, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Rendering graphs using
The rendering of the graphs using Template:Graph:Lines is not working properly here. When we click to preview the graph, it looks good, then when we click to save, it changes and looks ugly. Why is this? I have left two example graphs in my user sandbox subpages, one here (User:Bob247/sandbox/graph:line) and one at commons (C:User:Bob247/sandbox/graph:line) for comparison. As we can see it works perfectly over at commons, and the templates are apparently the same at both locations. Note that if you click edit on the examples on this wiki, they instantly look like the ones over at commons. Can someone with knowhow look into this? Thanks. Bob247 (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In preview your browser is generating the graph, but once it is saved the server takes over that task. Some features are supported by the browsers but not the server, hence the uglyness.--Snaevar (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It will be fixed once T236892 is done (it is allready underway).--Snaevar (talk) 15:39, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Accessing special index of WikiData qualifier's value
Hello friends. I need to access for example publication date of this page. for example I need to print "publication date" of PHP version 7.0.9. I know how to use Wikidata but I can just access the first one and the latest one. In fact I can use "normal" and "preferred" and don't know how to access this version. I used this code: But this code will return 2020-10-29 that is belongs version 7.4.12 and as you know it should print "22 July 2016" because the publication date of version 7.0.9 is "22 July 2016". I also tried these codes:

but these will show the first (5.3.29) and latest (7.4.12) index. I also don't know how to access version 1.0. so would you give me a hand please? I'm totally new in WP and please speak in simple way and even guide me with links.

Thanks in advance. GameO7er (talk) 14:34, 20 November 2020 (UTC)


 * You can specify the version via the optional "raw_value" parameter:  -> 2016-07-22. Note that "raw" and "mdy" together are contradictory, "raw" has preference here. --mfb (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Google not rendering Template:sfrac fractions properly from the article Integer
When Google crawls Wikipedia and displays the first couple of lines of a page, they do not render the sfrac template properly. For example, in the Google search, you, on Google, come across the line "For example, 21, 4, 0, and −2048 are integers, while 9.75, 5+, and √2 are not", which is copy-pasted from the Wikipedia article. However, the 5+, with the wiki code of $5 1⁄2$, should be rendered by Google as 5 1/2. Can this be fixed by Wikipedia, or it is just Google's fault?. I’ve confirmed this on Google via iOS 14 Safari. Benica11 (talk) 04:38, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Google is doing the best it can with the bizarre code that is output by sfrac, which looks like this:

5 + 1 / 2
 * For some reason, the template includes a hidden plus sign after the first number. Google shows the plus sign. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Google would probably be smart enough to ignore it if it was display: none, but it isn't, it's hidden by moving it way off the page. See Template_talk:Frac/Archive_1 for the apaprent reasoning on why this is done. Apparently for accessibility reasons, I presume for some kind of reader which can parse this as text to speech, some kind of "5 plus one slash two" or something. Personally, I think there's probably more damage than good done here. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 05:18, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the better way to do this is to use aria-hidden ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 05:22, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The actual section of the talk page you want is Template talk:Frac/Archive 1. I don't know much about ARIA ... I'm willing to test it out, but I can almost guarantee that screen readers won't do what you expect with it. Graham 87 06:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Graham87 perhaps, but I think a better solution needs to be found, if there is to be one at all. I did a quick search for mixed numbers html/accessibility/screen readers/etc and got no results, which leads me to think we're probably overdoing it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:16, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've adjusted the usage on the article to use TeX instead. Let's see if Google likes this, instead, I guess. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, never mind ;p -- reverted by @Anita5192 ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 02:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Accessibility of mathematics content for screen reader users like me is notoriously bad, leading to a lack of blind people taking up mathematical subjects, causing a vicious cycle. I'm not surprised there isn't much discussion of this problem on the Internet. Using LaTeX would have worked here ... Graham 87 04:32, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If the plus wasn't there, the 5 and 1 would be run together and probably read out as "fifty-one". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 14:09, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * 51/2 is still an example of a non-integer - but of course it can create problems elsewhere. I don't like that style for numbers in general (it can be read as 5*1/2), but that's a different discussion. --mfb (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories
This is a minor problem but these redirect categories are all empty but appear in this category to have contents. I have followed the instructions and did null edits to several of them but that had no effect. Many of these categories are several years old so I guess this situation has existed for a while without anyone noticing. Any ideas? Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk!
 * Category counting has some bugs. has incorrectly shown  as having two subcategories for more than two years. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Why are empty monthly maintenance categories missing from Category:Candidates for uncontroversial speedy deletion?

 * Is this also why empty maintenance categories, which automatically get marked as CSD G6 when they empty, never show up in the CSD categories? See Category:Uncategorized from July 2020 which is categorized under Category:Candidates for uncontroversial speedy deletion but doesn't appear in that category. I know I brought this problem to the Village Pump years ago and was told that it was a low priority problem. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 22:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Darned if I know. There are multiple phabricator tasks that are beyond my comprehension, including, . – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So, of course, my example of a tagged category that doesn't appear in the parent category got deleted as soon as I mentioned it here so I won't find another example. But it's very common for empty maintenance categories tagged for deletion to exist for days, weeks or months before an admin stumbles upon them and deletes them. Clearly not a top priority but an example of pages not appearing in categories that they are in.
 * Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions is another category that usually has drafts tagged to appear in it but the category, when you look at it, is almost always empty. Thanks for the phab tasks. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 20:44, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that the reason this happens is that the appearance of the speedy deletion template is caused by the emptying of the category instead of the editing of the category page. See the history of, for example, which I emptied about 24 hours ago. As soon as it was emptied, the speedy deletion template appeared when the page was purged, but without an edit to the category page, the page's category memberships will not be updated. A bot that null-edited Monthly clean-up category (13K transclusions, so don't do it too often) once every n days would make the "cats to delete" categories no more than n days out of date while we wait for a better solution or workaround. Pinging to see if this is something for User:ProcBot/PurgeList. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In theory the software should refresh those at some point itself, and for these categories if there's a delay of "only" one or two weeks I think it's okay as it is, if it's longer then perhaps worth null editing. Do you know if there's any others like this (a) to have an idea of how widespread this issue is and (b) I want to test something on one (before it's null edited)? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:06, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In theory, sure, but in practice, see the phab links I provided above. It can take months for pages to be categorized correctly if they are not edited (or null-edited). As for other categories that aren't properly categorized yet, see the empty cats in and compare them to the population of . All of the empty cats in the former should be in the latter. Just for fun, I have null-edited about 500 pages transcluding Monthly clean-up category, and four categories appeared in the speedy deletion category; if that 1% hit rate continues, there might be 100 empty cats out there waiting to be deleted. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Those phab tasks are interesting but that seems related to the first issue you guys discussed (the cat counts). The issue of CSD tagging seems to be the typical job queue / null edit one. The key thing to note here is how long is being waited for the job queue to naturally get around to the pages after the cat becomes empty. If it's just a week or so then I don't think we need to force a null edit, since this is a (relatively, compared to eg AfC expiring drafts) low-priority issue I think. If it's longer than a few weeks it may be appropriate to force a null edit every now and then. I'll run a one-time on the transclusions of Monthly clean-up category and see what hits for now, it'll take a bit to complete. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As I tried to explain, these monthly maint cat pages are not being "tagged" or otherwise modified in any usual sense, so the job queue is not involved; a null edit or link refresh is required to update category membership. The relevant phab tasks in this case are probably and . The tag is displayed only when the category becomes empty.
 * You don't have to run a null edit on the monthly cats; it is already in progress, and as far as I can tell, it has unearthed about 15 empty cats in 2,000 edits. I don't know of a way to find out how "stale" the empty cats were, but if someone looks at monthly category deletions in the last 110 minutes or so at Special:Log/delete, and can figure out how long those categories had been empty, that will be the answer to the question about staleness. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:18, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm not following all of this because I'm not adept at coding but I appreciate you thinking through what the problems might be. A couple of things to mention:
 * In Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories, there were empty categories appearing, somewhere between 10-20. I did a null edit on those categories and they disappeared from the soft redirect category. I tried a null edit on the categories in this category that appear to have contents (mostly saying 1P), and it didn't work with them. It had no effect.
 * You're right that with the maintenance categories, which appear in Category:Clean-up categories, when they empty, the bot that created them has an automatic CSD tag that appears which is dated. You don't really know when you stumble upon them how long they have been empty but I've seen ones that had CSD tags dated months and even years ago. I don't know how they would be affected by a null edit because even though they are CSD tagged, they don't appear in CSD categories, so you actually stumble upon them accidentally or go look for them. When they are found, they are simply deleted.
 * I guess my bigger question is how come with most categorization, as soon as you categorize an article, talk, user or other page, it instantly appears in that category. But with these few irregular categories, or Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions, that doesn't happen. I don't understand why they would be exceptions. The only difference is with the typical case, there is a physical edit that changes the page but with the maintenance and G13 eligible pages, there is a shift in status that is not based on physical edits but in bot instructions to move a page/category to a different status. Even though they are CSD tagged or, in the case of G13s recategorized, they just don't appear in the parent categories. As for the soft redirected categories, that's a fluke I don't get. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 03:04, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the explanation at WP:NULLEDIT will help. Yes, the CSD message is visible, but only an edit (null or otherwise) will change the page's actual category membership. Category names may appear on the page after a simple browser refresh or a WP:PURGE, but the page will not actually show up in the category until it is edited. It's confusing, to be sure. This difference is why I suggested help from a null-edit bot above. As we have seen so far today, there were about 30 empty categories that resulted from null-editing about half of the monthly maintenance categories, so the problem is real. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the explanation at WP:NULLEDIT will help. Yes, the CSD message is visible, but only an edit (null or otherwise) will change the page's actual category membership. Category names may appear on the page after a simple browser refresh or a WP:PURGE, but the page will not actually show up in the category until it is edited. It's confusing, to be sure. This difference is why I suggested help from a null-edit bot above. As we have seen so far today, there were about 30 empty categories that resulted from null-editing about half of the monthly maintenance categories, so the problem is real. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Bug in CharInsert
Please join the discussion at. —⁠andrybak (talk) 10:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

TimedText
I want to change TimedText:Example so that it displays the same basic format as the commons page at with the three File/Talk/TimedText tabs, the "Available closed captioning." box, and the CC0 "Licensing" box.

Is that possible? I can't figure out how to format the page to show the extra tab, and of course cutting and pasting the Wikitext was useless. Are there any example pages on the English Wikipedia with the all three tabs that I can use as an example? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * the TimedText namespace is for holding structed text that corresponds to a media file (it is "captioning" for it). An example from AllPages that is marked up is at TimedText:Baby_Got_Back_sample.ogg.en.srt, you can see that this is associated to the media file File:Baby Got Back sample.ogg.  These pages should not be marked up with licensing templates in the TimedText namespace. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:25, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If TimedText:Example can't be modified to contain an example of timed text, should I put it up for deletion? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You should rather put the format from Commons:File:1958-03-17 3rd Vanguard Successful.webm to an example file page. TimedText:Example should contain an example of timecodes instead, which will work. There is no need to delete the timedtext page.--Snaevar (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * it certainly can contain timed text, I think you are confused about what you are looking at. TimedText namespace holds the actual captioning, you are comparing it to a page in the File namespace (which can be linked to a timed text). —  xaosflux  Talk 16:20, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. It does look like I was looking at the wrong thing. That being said, if someone goes to TimedText:Example they should see an example of timed text. Would making the page a redirect to a video with timed text accomplish that? Or maybe just a link to such a video?
 * Thinking about it, I would like the reader to see
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vdubtestrgbcube4secs_ifps12fr12_q10.ogv 4.2
 * With timed text "This is" at one second and "a test." at two seconds. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Click on the TimedText tab, select a language and press Go, and you'll see instructions there: . Nardog (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vdubtestrgbcube4secs_ifps12fr12_q10.ogv now has timed text. Now I just need to make it so that someone who goes to TimedText:Example sees that video. Should I create a redirect? Or maybe just a link? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:12, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I doubt you can create a redirect in that namespace. Besides—again—what the hell is the point of making TimedText:Example a bluelink? Nardog (talk) 21:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Page in the TimedText namespace should contain....timed text in srt format! Not wikilinks, not redirects, etc.  If this page isn't actually timedtext for something (such as [[File:Example.mp3]]) it should probably just be deleted.  If you just want it to be an example of what timed text looks like, but not actually link it to an actual media file, then do that - just put some srt marked up example text in it. —  xaosflux  Talk 02:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In what circumstances would that be useful? If one needs an example why not just link to an existing .srt page for an actual video? Nardog (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Can admins see other people's watchlists?
Do we admins have the ability to see other editors' watchlists? If not, is there a reason why not? I can see it being additionally useful when comparing suspected socks, for instance, if I note that the two socks are interested in the same articles, or if a brand new editor watchlisted a bunch of drafts that I suspect of having been created via UPE. Just curious. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether they can but the natural counterargument would be privacy. Maybe there should be a special class or tool like with what's that 'see the IP behind a nick' tool. --Palosirkka (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * They cannot. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 17:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No we can't, and it's not going to happen. "Grossly unethical" doesn't begin to cover it; at absolute minimum we'd need express consent from every user and need to give all existing users time to edit their watchlist before it went live, given how much sensitive personal information could be inferred from a watchlist. It would be orders of magnitude more intrusive than CU. &#8209; Iridescent 17:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (e/c) If you were to go to WP:WATCHLIST you would read, under "Privacy" that "No user, not even administrators, can tell what is in your watchlist, or who is watching any particular page. Publicly available database dumps do not include this information either. Only developers who have access to the servers that hold the Wikipedia database could obtain this kind of information." There's a link to the Privacy Policy, which might be the sort of thing of which an Admin might be reasonably expected to be vaguely aware.  DuncanHill (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * They cannot. There is no degree of access (admin, 'crat, steward, staff) that provides this ability. Providing access to it would be a gross violation of the privacy policy. I did some theoretical design work about users allowing others (like a mentor) to see their watchlist, but it was bound up in some principles behind how Flow worked. It was never implemented, nor is it likely to be.--Jorm (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * You can't and I doubt it will be accessible in the future. My own opinion is that I don't think granting access would be a good idea from a privacy stance. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 17:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * FWIW, a user can generate a key for sharing their watchlist feed, and if they share that secret key it will allow others to read their WL. Also, a user can create a BotPassword that has access to view their own watchlist and if shared would allow others to access their WL (via API). I don't recommend anyone actually doing either of those things though for this use case (but there are use-cases where you may share it with "yourself" for special purposes. —  xaosflux  Talk 17:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Wow! I actually knew about the key, but the bot password thing is new to me.  MediaWiki is filled with weird esoterica like that. Jorm (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I can see a case for giving checkusers access, so they can give us a simple similar/different verdict (like comparing IP addresses without giving us the numbers), but that's a policy rather than technical matter. Certes (talk) 18:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Followup question:
Can the police see editors' watchlists if they have a warrant? Their browsing history? Do we know what information is retained on the servers and thus available with a court order and what is deleted after a certain amount of time? Doed the W?F have a Warrant canary? Asking for a friend. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 23:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)


 * @Guy Macon serious question or joking? If serious, the source of MediaWiki is public, as is the database structure. But my spidery sixth sense tells me this is joking. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a joke, and I think you might not understand what open source means. Go ahead and download the source for MediaWiki. It's at [ https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/g/mediawiki/core ] Try to find User:ProcrastinatingReader's watchlist or even IP address. Now download the entire English Wikipedia database. Instructions are at Database download, Also see [ https://dumps.wikimedia.org/ ] Again, you won't find User:ProcrastinatingReader's watchlist or even IP address. So yes, that was a serious question, and the fact that one can download Wikipedia does not answer it.
 * BTW, the source of Tails (operating system) is also public, and I use TAILS regularly, but good luck finding any information on me that way, even if you have a warrant. (Or, more likely in my case, even if you are the government of the PRC where I use TAILS.) Even the developers who created TAILS don't have access to any information about their users. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:17, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes but you don't need to know the contents of someone's watchlist to know what data the software stores, you just need to look at the database structure for the watchlist table, ie mw:Manual:watchlist table. I would imagine the WMF, like any other entity, would comply with a legal request for data stored on their servers. The data on your computer is not stored unencrypted on the Tails developers' servers. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , how could Special:Watchlist possibly work if the full watchlist wasn't retained on the servers? The only question is to what extent WMF-Legal is willing to resist such a demand. OTOH I am curious about the browsing history. There's some value to keeping that in the very short term. ("Hmmm, server load has increased 10x in the past few hours. Let's see which requests are the problem.") But if it's being kept for a long time, I'd like to know why. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:34, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What have you been browsing, ? :D ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As soon as I saw "This user has made over 4 edits to Wikipedia" I knew I was dealing with a heavy hitter. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Rubber hose, ski mask, bear trap, The Pentagon, lubricant, cat scratch disease. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: "how could Special:Watchlist possibly work if the full watchlist wasn't retained on the servers?", it (and anything else that is only visible to me when I am logged in) could work by retaining an encrypted copy that requires my password to read. That's what the W?F can do, but I doubt that it is what they actually do. I do know that the W?F doesn't store my password, just a hash used to verify it.
 * Knowing the database structure for the watchlist table does not change this. The W?F could populate that table from an encrypted copy when I log on and delete the unencrypted watchlist when I log out. But probably not. -Guy Macon (talk) 03:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That would still only protect users who never log in. The moment you log in, "they" have your plaintext password, and anything encrypted with it. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup. Or they could simply do this. :( -Guy Macon (talk) 05:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Here is the privacy policy and here is the most-recent transparency report. --Izno (talk) 03:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Announcing xCite: Templates eXported from Wikipedia

 * https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/botwikiawk/xcite/xcite.html

xCite is weekly dump of CS1|2 templates on enwiki and other select languages. I made it for another project and thought it might have general use so am making it public. It will run from cron indefinitely. AFAIK there are no other dumps like it. It has many potential uses but was mainly designed as an intermediary step to feed into a database of citations. It could run much faster depending how many concurrent Toolforge slots are configured. -- Green  C  15:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting stuff, GreenC. Thanks for doing this. – SD0001  (talk) 04:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, User:SD0001! It seemed trivial to scrape CS1|2 but the challenge is to do it fast, consistent and reliable. So far it is working well. -- Green  C  05:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

autoconfirmed-show
I added Special:Diff/989942531 (CSS class: "autoconfirmed-show") to the sandbox version of protection banners (used by pp-move/sandbox). This template is present on my sandbox at User:ProcrastinatingReader/sandbox. It caused the green move lock in the top right to disappear. Last I checked, I was autoconfirmed, so I should still see this lock, but I don't? What am I doing wrong here? (paging ) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Because MediaWiki:Group-autoconfirmed.css only div, p, span, small, table and li tags with the class, and images are none of these. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 22:23, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, right... Is there any particular reason why it's limited to certain tags, and if so is there any issue with adding img and a tags to that list? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:58, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm we could try putting  as   (with   and  ), but I'm not sure if that's a safe assumption. Frankly I don't think the other rules are safe assumptions either, but I didn't invent this system :) For instance, I would say add the CSS class to the   element instead, but as a div that would force it to be display:block when it should be display:inline-block. Why are we conditionally showing the padlock, anyway? Shouldn't it be visible to everyone? &mdash;  MusikAnimal  talk  23:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @MusikAnimal re your question, see this TfD. TLDR logic is that IPs and non-autoconfirmed can't move anyway, so shouldn't see move protection icon. That's what I was trying to achieve here with the autoconfirmed-show. The diff is just for a quick demo, I was actually thinking of moving it up to the  parent class, but that would suffer from the same issue it seems. Looking into the div... ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm... The div is controlled by use of the 'indicator' tag. Does this tag support a class attribute? eg like Special:Diff/989953973 ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Apparently not. I guess there's no harm in adding  to the list, as no one is probably using this CSS class on img tags yet. However, when I tested hiding an img on my userpage (which has many indicators), there's some leftover spacing. Hiding the parent div (.mw-indicator) was the only way I was able to remove it. In most cases this probably doesn't matter, but things could look a bit off for instance on articles that are move-protected and have a GA/FA classification. Would wrapping the entire indicator in a span tag work? &mdash;  MusikAnimal  talk  05:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @MusikAnimal Does a span tag around an indicator carry over? eg I did Special:Diff/990015122 but the span just stayed in the body as the indicator was moved to the top by the software (indicator itself isn't wrapped by the span). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 08:56, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

placement of dead link template in ref?
If there is a (inside) or after (outside)? RJFJR (talk) 22:45, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * inside is preferred as there is no need to know the link is dead in prose text of the article. If someone hovers or clicks the ref then they can learn of its status. No need to inform about the dead link unless the readers shows interest in the source. That said you'll see them on both inside and outside.-- Moxy 🍁 22:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

New versions of Template:merge and Template:split
I have created new versions of these templates in merge/sandbox and split/sandbox which are more similar to each other. Both of these templates have additional reason parameters. Additionally, the new split template is suitable for other namespaces. I tried to avoid making breaking changes, but it is not guaranteed. Also, some related templates may need to be modified. What are your thoughts on these templates? JsfasdF252 (talk) 20:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Try WP:VPT for feedback on ideas, not this page. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:44, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:VPR? – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Why are you jumping straight to RfC without, so far as I can tell, having followed WP:RFCBEFORE? Also, please don't put templates in section headings, they make inward linking much more difficult. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Images misaligned on mobile website in infoboxes
Hi. I don't know why, but on some pages with infobox election — e.g. 2019 Bolivian general election and 2020–21 United States Senate special election in Georgia — the images are misaligned on the mobile website. I cannot figure out what causes this. It happens on my phone, on my computer in the mobile site, and in screenshots I've seen of at least these two pages from other people. How can this be fixed? One thing I did is I made sure the aspect ratios of the photos in the Bolivian one are all the same, but that changed nothing apparently. DemonDays64 (talk) 07:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Categories not showing
Something weird's going on with at the moment - none of the categories are showing. You can add one via Hotcat and that works, but anything that goes via the main edit screen doesn't show - none of the usual tricks like null edits, purging etc seem to work. My only thought is that it's had some revert battles with an IP of late, so that it's maybe been locked somehow? Could someone take a look? TIA. Le Deluge (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The comment at the top of the page was incorrectly closed. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 15:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Gah - that was my first thought, I looked at it and didn't see that extra !, so annoying when you know something must be right in front of you and you don't see it. Thanks. Le Deluge (talk) 16:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Nowiki not working?
Template:Linked is showing some failures of the HTML tag and this is having knock-on consequences by displaying items and populating categories inadvertently. Can anyone work out what's causing this? Timrollpickering (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure what the bug was, but replacing the brackets with HTML entities has fixed it. &#8209; Iridescent 17:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure what the bug was, but replacing the brackets with HTML entities has fixed it. &#8209; Iridescent 17:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-48
<section begin="technews-2020-W48"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Timestamps in Special:Log are now links. They go to Special:Log for only that entry. This is how timestamps work on for example the history page.

Changes later this week
 * There is no new MediaWiki version this week.

Future changes
 * Octicons-tools.svg The Wikimedia Cloud VPS hosts technical projects for the Wikimedia movement. Developers need to claim projects they use. This is because old and unused projects are removed once a year. Unclaimed projects can be shut down from 1 December. Unclaimed projects can be deleted from 1 January.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W48"/> 17:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Horizontal rule with text in the middle
I'm doing a redesign of the languages list that appears at the bottom of the main page. I'd like to get it looking a little more like the "Read Wikipedia in your language" list on the global landing page, where the "More than 250,000 articles" etc. headers are in the middle of a horizontal rule (which produces a cleaner visual hierarchy). Could anyone help me code that at the sandbox? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This Stackoverflow thread looks promising. I think the one on the main page uses JS, but the thread linked here uses CSS, so you might be able to use template styles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Proof of concept follows, using similar technique to the global landing page; it could use some refinement but it works. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 22:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia


 * For something like this, you should note that hard-coding the background color leaves a chunky box around the text on any page where this doesn't match the background color of other text - so that should be avoided. — xaosflux  Talk 17:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:RefToolbar § Autofill access-date button not there
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:RefToolbar § Autofill access-date button not there. Any technical help will be greatly appreciated! Funandtrvl (talk) 01:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I've identified the issue, but we need an interface admin to make the edit. Ideally sooner rather than later. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 02:04, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you!! Funandtrvl (talk) 04:02, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * problem fixed, thanks! Funandtrvl (talk) 20:37, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Category Navigation is messed up
I posted this elsewhere and was asked to report it here. I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I need to post it somewhere. The system is not letting me go through categories in the normal way. When I open a category it has the first 200 articles. However when I click on next it goes straight to a page starting with the 200 articles beginning with the first one categorized under B. If I go back it gives me a page with the previous 200 articles, but will only allow me to go back 1 page. This means in some categories some articles in the category cannot be navigated from. This is a very frustrating situation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The above is not the full extent of the problem. When I click on the A tab to navitage in categories it takes me to B, and when I click on B it takes me to C. The more specific tabs like Ae or Aj take me to B, and always at the start of B. So that method of navigation is a problem as well. I have seen this in the 1927, 1929 and 1990 birth year categories. The same problem occured when I went to the category 20th-century American journalists. It seems to be a general navigation problem. I actually turned off my computer and turned it back on things it might be a function of something on my computer. I do not think it is. I have only noticed this problem in today.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I started noticing this problem today as well, within Living people and specific birth year categories, after about 20:00 UTC. --Ken Gallager (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I would guess this is related to the Unicode upgrade. (More specific thread.) Try again toward the end of the week. --Izno (talk) 20:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * (reposting from above): It took about nine days in 2016 and was estimated to take about eight days in 2018. I don't know if the process is similar this time, but I would not be surprised to see it take a week to get sorted (I couldn't resist). – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Examples are always good, per the box at the top. Without a link to a category, we can't see what is happening, so can't judge if there is a problem or not. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem seems to have been resolved.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe on that one page, but see my example below. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Re: "Examples are good":

On the page Category:Taylor & Francis academic journals when I click on "A" I get B through J and when I click on "B" I get C through J. "C" gives me D through J, and "D" gives me E through L.

"0-9" gives me A but the "previous page " link works and brings me to Écoscience for some strange reason.

"W" gets me X and "X" gets me "There are no pages or files in this category".

--Guy Macon (talk) 20:09, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

A quick update about categories sorting: at the moment, the sorting is still being rebuilt on English Wikipedia. This takes more time due to an unscheduled database restart. Thank you for your patience and your understanding! Trizek (WMF) (talk) 10:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Resorting is now done. Please let me know if you find some anomalies that aren't explainable from your side. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , Écoscience was still at the top of . I had to remove the pipe and blank space after the category name in order to get it to sort properly. I do not know enough about categorization to know if this is new behavior. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is unchanged behaviour, and is working as designed: see WP:SORTKEY, second bullet. That said, using a space as the sortkey was incorrect in this instance, because Écoscience is not the main article of, so your removal was valid. BTW I go past the HQ of Taylor & Francis twice a day, on my journey to/from work. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:15, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Category: Living People
Hi people, the list jumps from Amal Azzudin to Shahida Abbasi, I suspect that the recent people have been added. I haven't noticed before...GrahamHardy (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * All categories will be out-of-sorts for the next few days due to a recent change in the Wikipedia software. If it's still a problem in a week and a half, raise the issue again. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)  (true, but irrelevant) davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, the problem you saw may be unrelated, it has to do with the on the respective pages.  Most, but not all, people are "sorted" last-name-first.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)  Update Yup, Shahida Abbasi has  in it. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  18:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No, those sort keys don't explain the incorrect sorting. The actual issue is the one you struck, also described above in . M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  19:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Doh, yeah, Abbassi comes before either Amal or Azzudin. Both should come after "Caffeine, ingesting."  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  19:24, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Categories not alphabetizing new articles properly
This may be a problem that has already been noticed by other people, but as I can't find evidence that it's been raised here recently I wanted to mention it just in case.

Some recently created articles — specifically articles that were either newly created today, or already existed but got added today to a category that they weren't previously in — don't seem to be getting alphabetized correctly in their relevant categories. For example, in, the articles Sarah McBride, Eric Morrison and Marie Pinkney are all flopping out of alphabetical order, and just sitting at the end of their respective letters. And by the same token, features end-of-letter misfiles of Torrey Harris and Eddie Mannis, both newly created today, and Leonidas "Leon" Howard, which already existed but had its sortkey corrected today because the creator had copypasted the defaultsort template from another person without correcting it to reflect Leon Howard's name instead of the other person's.

I know this problem has occurred in the past; however, I don't recall whether it resolved itself naturally, or whether somebody had to tweak something at the server level to fix it. Bearcat (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Expect this to take a week or so to be resolved. See above. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Would an interface warning help?
I'm not up on the details of how our interface customization works, but would it be possible to use that to put a warning banner on the top of every category page for the next week, alerting people that it's a known problem? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Per comment above by Trizek (WMF), this is done. --Izno (talk) 18:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Musical scores not working
I wanted to draw the attention of VPT to a serious issue with music articles right now. Musical scores are not displaying, replaced with the error message "Musical scores are temporarily disabled." This results in significant gaps in many music articles, as the scores are used for essential explanations and examples (see inversion (music), for example). The score element is used on hundreds of articles and has been broken since July. There is some discussion of the issue at Help:Score and Help talk:Score, but there's no indication that anything is being done to fix it. I think some Wikipedians with more technical expertise than I need to step in and find a solution to this, as it's causing major damage to Wikipedia's music coverage. If this is being worked on and there's a timeline for fixing it, please let me know. Many thanks. --Albany NY (talk) 03:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a known problem. I forget where I saw the official notice, but it's been like that for weeks.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  03:35, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See . Scores have been disabled for security reasons, and it is challenging for volunteers to fix because the security problems have not been disclosed widely. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Request to update the Cite_OED template
Where is the best place to find someone to update Cite_OED? I've asked several times on the talk page at Template_talk:Cite_OED, but that page probably doesn't get much exposure. Happy to ask elsewhere if someone could point me in the right direction. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , maybe Help talk:Citation Style 1? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 03:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, will try that. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Help requested for lint errors in collapsed infobox sections
You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Collapsed infobox section begin § LintHint errors. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:10, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Upper case lower case issue in recovering a password
Because of a faulty keyboard in Firefox on one of my Linux laptops, I needed to install Chromium to test out a solution. I installed Wikipedia on Chromium, I failed to log in using my the name 'clemrutter' My user name is 'ClemRutter'. I applied for a forgotten password using the using 'clemrutter' and my default email address. A temporary password was sent to me. I logged in with that. I logged in with 'clemrutter'. Looking at the top line-red link to user page, talk page and sandbox-- but I had two notifications to this new account- both links from other editors refering to edits I had made under the old account. Obviously one of the searches is case dependent, and the notification search is not. Very low. Action needed: reviewing the source code for the searches. Review whether the username on log in needs to be verified before the password box is ungreyed. (see fair use unload wizard for file verification that we already use) --ClemRutter (talk) 11:36, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Scenario
 * Problem
 * Urgency


 * I'm not exactly following your problem? You made this report logged in at User:ClemRutter, not as User:Clemrutter.  Usernames are case-sensitive, but not in the first letter (which are always uppercase). —  xaosflux  Talk 12:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you have 2 accounts with the same email address, but different mid-string casing I can see it could be confusing - but I'm missing what it is you would like done about that? — xaosflux  Talk 12:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am just being a good little boy and reporting a strange incident. I am not requesting any particular outcome. I have suggested that the existence of a username is checked before the password request is made, though in this case it wouldn't be helpful! Thanks to for the explanation. ClemRutter (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * was created automatically on 5 August 2017. It's a separate account with no edits, user page or talk page on enwp.  However, similarly named accounts have about 20 edits in 2007–08 across several other wikis.  I expect that a corresponding enwp account was created when global login was rolled out, and that is the one for which the temporary password was issued.  Certes (talk) 12:29, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Template:Election table
Can anybody help us along here? (If willing to reply, please do only post there, for reasons of transparency. Thanks in advance for any support.)--Hildeoc (talk) 22:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'formatDate' (NaN)
A heap of articles are showing, see articles with script errors. Several examples of the error can be found by searching Module:Sports table/WDL/doc for "Lua error". Related changes is not helping as much as it normally does. Since I can't figure it out, I am blaming Scribunto. The error message is exactly what a customized Lua might show if a function named formatDate was called with a Nan (not-a-number) as argument 1. Really reaching, I would guess that it is related to the expansion of references. I have no evidence for that speculation. Any better ideas? Johnuniq (talk) 04:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Probably Village pump (technical)/Archive 184. --Izno (talk) 05:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * And subsequently Village pump (technical)/Archive 185 and Village pump (technical)/Archive 185. --Izno (talk) 05:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Possibly my brain is off but I can't see how those links lead to this error. Module:Sports table/WDL/doc is in Category:Pages with script errors + Category:Pages using sports table with possibly ignored parameters + Category:Pages with reference errors and no other categories. Johnuniq (talk) 05:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing the same changes (and particularly the task attached in one or the other of the tech news notes) are driving this sudden issue related to formatDate is my belief. I'm more or less puzzled that there wasn't a separate category emitted for that function as well. (We have some 70 uses of the function in our modules.) --Izno (talk) 06:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is plausible because languageObject:formatDate(...) is executed within Scribunto and it would probably show an error like this if it received a NaN. I tried constructing the error but failed. For example,  gives "Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'formatDate' (string expected, got number)" and replacing the colon with a dot gives a different error specifically to catch that blunder. Johnuniq (talk) 06:23, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I've chased it a little further. When executing one of the examples with errors in Module:Sports table/WDL/doc, this code is executed: local win_perc = mm._precision_format((2*wins + draws) / (2*matches), 3) local formatted_num = lang:formatNum(math.abs(value)) The error then occurs. That is because  and   and   are zero so   is passed   (NaN). Then  in Module:Math is also NaN and the   code gives that error. Except, the error message says. Because I can't see any recent changes in relevant modules at enwiki, I'm guessing that what I just said always occurred (that is, NaN was passed to formatNum). Perhaps something in Scribunto or the PHP library it uses now throws an error for NaN but treated differently before? Johnuniq (talk) 09:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * From Module:Sports table/WDL
 * From Module:Math
 * The error claims incorrectly it is an formatDate error because of change https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/Scribunto/+/640246/ . There is an clear copy-paste error there. FormatDate has nothing to do with it.--Snaevar (talk) 12:50, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I tried looking around Gerrit but missed seeing that. Johnuniq (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the above might be a red herring. I have just been trying to edit 2020–21 Championnat National, where (2*wins + draws) does not equal zero for any club. I get the Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'formatDate' (NaN) when I save any change. Gricehead (talk) 10:52, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To add - setting a ranking_style to ppg or perc stops the error, so it's something caused by entering the first outcome in the  switch. Gricehead (talk) 11:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * But I had made a typo in a team identifier for a position. That normally flags as a warning, but now throws this error. Gricehead (talk) 13:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Please try your wikitext again and see what happens now. If there is an inexplicable error, you might reply here with a link to show the problem. For example, you could put some minimal wikitext in your sandbox. Johnuniq (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Possibly fixed
These errors are possibly all by this edit. Please report further problems below, after purging or null-editing the article in question. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:10, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and I see you reported the incorrect error message at T268758. Johnuniq (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Tools for Short Articles
Hi guys! Do any of you know any tools that could detect stub articles or short articles that have not been categorized in stub articles? Please spam below regarding the tools! Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyberTroopers (talk • contribs) 20:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Frustratingly, Stub says several tools are available to do this, but it does not list them, except for WP:AWB.  So that's one possible at least.  RudolfRed (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)  RudolfRed (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you do find some other tools, please add them to that page. RudolfRed (talk) 22:43, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, buddy! I do use AWB, but is there certain source code I've to write to indentify the articles or they have like existed-button or tick box? Do you have any idea about it? CyberTroopers (talk) 02:39, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Is it acceptable to use Template:In use in talk page mentions of the template?
Is it acceptable to use Template:In use in talk page mentions of the template? Please see the discussion at Template talk:In use and discuss it there. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

wikidumps sha1 segments ...
I asked this question in the help forum and they told me this would be the right forum to ask these kinds of questions. Sorry, for the typos and changes of character sets in editors. You will certainly see what I mean. I downloaded some of the 20200920 bz2 wikidumps and took care of checking their md5 and sha1 sums. To my understanding there is simply no way that the content of the compressed files containing the pages (which I have also eyeballed) could have been corrupted without anyone noticing. Yet, when you decompress them you will see ... segments containing CDATA inside of every ... segment right after the <text bytes="[byte length of the UTF-8 text]" xml:space="...">... (which "bytes" (length) value I have checked for every text segment). The sha1 string value which doesn't make any sense to me, because: let's use as an example: frwiki-20200920-pages-articles-multistream6.xml-p13574284p13592810.bz2 The New Woody Woodpecker Show <ns>0</ns> <id>13580602</id> <redirect title="Le Nouveau Woody Woodpecker Show" /> <id>174712998</id> 2020-09-14T13:14:29Z Bob08 <id>14737</id> lien wikitext text/x-wiki <text bytes="49" xml:space="preserve">#REDIRECTION Le Nouveau Woody Woodpecker Show 276az6ruof7t45y5svax3omeamdxps3 ~ 276az6ruof7t45y5svax3omeamdxps3 is only 31 bytes long and this is what Linux message digest utilities tell me: $ echo "#REDIRECTION Le Nouveau Woody Woodpecker Show" | sha1sum f1160df2ed230af750122eb08376dfb9251b8951 - $ sha1sum "/home/lbrtchx/cmllpz/temp/checkSHA1.txt" f1160df2ed230af750122eb08376dfb9251b8951 /home/lbrtchx/cmllpz/temp/checkSHA1.txt $ cat "/home/lbrtchx/cmllpz/temp/checkSHA1.txt" REDIRECTION Le Nouveau Woody Woodpecker Show ~ So, I have three related questions: I could understand as topical such tags as: but I am not so sure about: are those colons in the titles officially used to define general topical matters such as Categories or anyone can just type a colon in a title to a message? or both? and in the last case which topics are owned by wikipedia and which aren't? lbrtchx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albretch Mueller (talk • contribs) 12:25, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * sha1 values are 40 bytes long
 * sha1sum Linux utility is telling me it doesn't seem to be right
 * What do those "sha1" segments inside of each "page" right bellow the "text" segment mean?
 * Do you know of any "anatomical" analysis posted officially by wikipedia or anyone else with the explanation of the meaning of the tags they use?
 * en|User talk
 * ja|Category
 * ru|ÐšÐ°Ñ‚ÐµÐ³Ð¾Ñ€Ð¸Ñ
 * en|Category talk
 * en|Category
 * ar|ØªØµÙ†ÙŠÙ
 * ko|ë¶„ë¥˜
 * ja|Wikipedia
 * ru|Ð¨Ð°Ð±Ð»Ð¾Ð½
 * ja|Template
 * en|Wikipedia
 * en|Template
 * ru|Ð’Ð¸ÐºÐ¸Ð¿ÐµÐ´Ð¸Ñ
 * en|Template talk
 * ko|í‹€
 * en|Draft
 * ja|The Ultimate Fighter
 * en|Star Wars
 * ru|Pirates of the Caribbean
 * ja|PokÃ©mon the Series
 * There is also some funky mark up they use inside of their text segment which is xml-ish but not exactly xml. All I've heard was that such mark up is used as part of the processing through a mysql database. Could you safely use that kind of mark up to parse the document's segments?
 * The SHA-1 values are in base36 format rather than in hex, as explained at mw:Manual:Revision table, which explains why they are shorter than you expected. The export format is written about at mw:Help:Export. I don't understand all your questions (and some of them have probably lost info due to formatting problems), but I hope that helps. Graham 87 14:52, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

wikimedia sites not loading with BSNL Broadband
Hello. I have access to two different ISPs, and three devices. Around a couple of months ago, I realised AWB was giving me an error during start-up whenever I was using BSNL Broadband. At the same time, enwiki was loading sort of slowly in browser. It was working totally fine via VPN, or different ISP. But since last 2-3 days, enwiki, and commons are not even loading through BSNL Broadband. I switched back n forth between BSNL Broadband, and a different ISP in a span of few seconds/minutes. The two websites are loading perfectly with non-BSNL ISP. It is not a device/browser issue. They also load finely if I use VPN with BSNL Broadband. While on BSNL the browser(s) are giving error somewhere along the line "server stopped responding". BSNL uses dynamic IP addeesses. Getting new IP is not solving the issue since last 2-3 days. Is anybody facing similar issues with BSNL, or some other ISP? What might be the cause of this error? Wikimedia/enwiki is not prohibited/banned by BSNL Broadband, or the country. (I will shortly post a link to this discussion at WT:CU, and WT:SPI.) —usernamekiran (talk) 18:19, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * My first thought is either BSNL has screwed up some configuration and some traffic isn't routing properly or you are being speed throttled by them. When you can access it just fine by VPN, that indicates an ISP issue. -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 18:53, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Please see Reporting a connectivity issue or if you can't access that page, try this copy. Legoktm (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Trying to use User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/massRollback.js
Installed it, but I can't find the link to use it, and it doesn't have any documentation. Any idea of how to use it? Thanks!  NonsensicalSystem (err0r?)(.log) 10:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * @NonsensicalSystem, my understanding is that from any user's contributions page, you can click "rollback all", which will essentially do the same as clicking every [rollback] link on the page. The script doesn't do any more than that. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed   talk!  14:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Gadget-markblocked.js indef vs temp style?
After about my third time of making a mistake because I thought somebody was indef blocked when they were only temp blocked, I decided to hack on MediaWiki:Gadget-markblocked.js to make it show those two in different styles. What I discovered was that it already does, but the difference (opacity 0.4 vs 0.7) is so subtle, I never noticed it.

So, two questions. First, is there some pre-canned way to customize the styles? I'm guessing not, since they look hard-wired into the js code. Second, before I reinvent the wheel, has anybody already looked at this and come up with a good set of alternate styles? My first thought was one of the strikeout variations (double, wavy, dashed), but they all leave the underlying text nearly illegible.

Related: TIL that Special:Gadgets lists all the gadgets and gives you a way to map from the descriptive text strings in Special:Preferences to the actual gadget source code. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Indef blocks are also italicized, are they not for you? ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 18:47, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Setting default watchlist expiry options in Twinkle
I've opened up a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle to see what, if any, of Twinkle's default watch values should make use of the new watchlist expiry feature coming next week. All are welcome to chime in! ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 19:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

IABot says I am blocked
When I attempt to fix dead links, I get an error message stating I am blocked. However, my account details indicates I am not. I am able to edit normally otherwise. Cullen328 did accidentally block me the the 21st. Is there a lag or something? S0091 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What was the exact message? Ruslik_ Zero 19:33, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging operator: ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * below is the message that displays in a red box in the upper left of the page:
 * Analysis error:


 * blocked: You have been blocked from editing.
 * S0091 (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is resolved. See also other reports on cyberpower's talk page. S0091 (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The core issue doesn't seem to be resolved. Another user has now reported this. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 20:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

How to use Greasemonkey?
I'm trying to use Greasemonkey. It won't work: ReferenceError: mw is not defined. I've tried dozens of things, T108323 seemed the most promising but still doesn't work. (at some point after adjusting it with I got that to complain about RLQ not being defined.. sigh)

If someone can provide a working example that would just  (which works on the console but not in GM) I could hopefully figure things out from there. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 13:20, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I tried and it works.. or so I thought.   works, but   doesn't. (mw.util is undefined..) — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I simply use setInterval to wait for the required globals, e.g.: But I too would be interested to know if there are slicker ways. Nardog (talk) 16:01, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, in combination with the stuff from stackoverflow it appears to work now. It's not very pretty, but oh well. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to make RedWarn a gadget
RedWarn is a popular counter-vandalism tool, written in JavaScript and used by hundreds English Wikipedia editors to revert problematic edits, warn and report editors, request page protection and perform other moderation and maintenance tasks.

Released in April of this year, it has since become one of the most popular active counter-vandalism tools used by English Wikipedia volunteers, along with Twinkle and Huggle (see Special:Tags).

Originally, it was just myself alone developing RedWarn, however, now RedWarn has a seven-strong team who help maintain RedWarn on a regular basis. In my opinion, while I was originally myself opposed to it, seeing RedWarn grow has made making RedWarn a gadget a very appealing option as it would benefit everyone in multiple ways, but predominantly from a security prospective. RedWarn is in use by over 300 editors. This includes administrators and other users with elevated privileges on the English Wikipedia and other wikis. If RedWarn was a gadget and in the MediaWiki space, updates to the script would have more scrutiny applied to it by interface administrators before they update the script. Right now, as it is in my userspace, in the highly unlikely event that my account becomes compromised, the damage to the English Wikipedia could be extensive.

RedWarn meets the criteria for a gadget at WP:GADGET. While we don't support Safari or IE, given a vast majority of desktop users are using compatible browsers and over 300 have already installed without issue. RedWarn also works out of the box by default, but a first time setup is shown, mainly for user experience. This can be moved if this is an issue. We also support all skins. RedWarn is open-source at https://gitlab.com/redwarn/redwarn-web, is powered by Wikimedia Cloud Services/Toolforge and contains one obfuscated component designed to prevent people from bypassing permission restrictions and abusing powerful RedWarn features. We can remove these also if anyone is concerned.

Thank you all for your consideration, <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  04:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
Note: If you oppose due to off-wiki hosting please read the secondary proposal in the section below first. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  21:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as proposer. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  04:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom Disclosure: I am one of RedWarn's devs ―sportzpikachu <sub style="display:inline-block"> my talk contribs  04:21, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * isn't this not really going to be gadget-optimized because it is running code and directing users to external servers, additionally by loading external scripts isn't this bypassing security controls that are normally present with gadgets (that they would not be expected to behave differently without community managed interface administrators updating them - and also being able to watchlist the actual code)? — xaosflux  Talk 04:24, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, we're using Toolforge, which is WMF hosted, and we plan to add signatures to all our external resources if we become a gadget meaning that we cannot change the code of those files without consequentially changing the signatures, so browsers will refuse to load them as there will be a signature mismatch. When there has been a change to these files, they will be made in a newer separate file on the server and updating them will be to the discretion of int admins. We will keep minification as low as we can, all of RedWarn's actual code and functionality is and will remain on-wiki, to allow for people to watchlist, along with tracking changes on the GitLab. Hope this clarifies, <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed   talk!  04:33, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Why does this need to be off-wiki? — xaosflux  Talk 12:18, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux, we can copy over the several JS and CSS dependencies on-wiki, but our speed tests on a test MediaWiki instance have shown that this would slow down the website drastically for RedWarn users. Either way, for technical reasons we'd still need to host other files, like fonts and sounds, off-wiki. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  15:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks for the note, have you considered just moving the whole thing off-wiki then? Could be linked to a browser add-on, or if you really want to tie it to a wiki user, just a one-line script? —  xaosflux  Talk 15:39, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux, we could, and we have thought about it, but that brings up again people being unable to watchlist the script itself for changes <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  15:59, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support because RedWarn is an amazing tool (even better than Twinkle in my opinion), and therefore should have the same status of Gadget. It would also help new users find the tool, streamline updating/deployment, and secure the code against vandalism or client-side tampering. — MrConorAE (👤U &#124; 💬T &#124; 📝C) 05:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strongest possible support per nom. And also per the fact that RedWarn is one of the most powerful anti-vandalism tools that I've ever seen. JJP...MASTER![talk to] JJP... master? 16:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I have to admit that I have found RedWarn to be a useful tool. It has more rollback reasons than Twinkle, has more customization than Twinkle, and, while I cannot say it is easier to use as Twinkle, it does get really close.   I just tested the tool on my old iPhone and it does not work.  It also does not really work on Android either.  Twinkle, on the other hand, works well on mobile.  I don't even find the Pending Changes Review feature that useful, either.  I think RedWarn is a solution looking for a problem.  The new functionality could probably be rewritten with modern UI and cross-platform compatibility in mind.  Now, all the technical details, which most readers would not be interested:  RedWarn would do better if written using OOUI, not Google Material Design.  OOUI is built into MediaWiki and is designed to work across all devices.  Also, as much as I see good intentions with this, loading material from other servers is a security vulnerability.  Material Design is not built into MediaWiki and is unlikely to be for a while.  While that does mean that you may have to sacrifice certain icons, I can picture it being a lot more compatible with more browsers than Material Design. Good news, though: you probably are safe to upload these icons to Wikimedia Commons as they are CC BY-4.0 licensed.  Aasim (talk) 08:09, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What I think would be better is if we had RW's functionality merged into Twinkle. Keep the inspector, keep the multiple action tool, add a dropdown to the rollback reasons, add rollback previews, and add forms for the suppression forms, and voila, Twinkle has all the good RedWarn functionality!  Oh, and make Twinkle not mess with the page content and confine everything to dialogues.  Aasim (talk) 17:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support per nom. User3749 (talk) 16:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support as a frequent user, though I'm admittedly unqualified to fully gauge the validity of the technical concerns raised above.  Angry Harpy   talk 16:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. As a frequent user, I can say that RedWarn should be a gadget, it's a tool I find useful in anti-vandalism. However, I'm not a programmer, and therefore am not qualified to judge the technical concerns above. Justarandomamerican (talk) 17:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support - RedWarn is far better than Twinkle (IMO), and as per the reasons per nom. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Avenir, Segoe UI; color:navy">Thanoscar21talk<sub style='position: relative; left: -1.5em;'>contribs 17:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support per nom.--Ahmetlii (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose Twinkle is used on other projects. Wait until this is as well. --HurricaneTracker495 (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Daask (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator - this is a wonderful tool and so simple to use JW 1961   Talk  18:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support I have been using RW for a few weeks, and it has greatly helped me in my pending reviewer and anti-vandalism tasks. This is a very useful tool with polished UI and great potential!  Double Plus Ungood (talk)  18:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support I think RedWarn the best anti-vandalism tool we have. I think making it a gadget will be incredibly beneficial to the project. Scorpions13256 (talk) 18:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, as a frequent user who loves its convenience. WDM10 (talk) 18:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Question: How do you intend to note that the gadget does not work for all users? ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 19:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am entirely against this being a gadget for exactly the issue raised by above.  Who has access to redwarn.toolforge.org and the various files hosted there?  If the answer is anything other than "only interface-admins" (which is obviously not the case) it's an end-run around the whole whole system.  I'll oppose adding any gadget that does that, especially is such an obfuscated and off-wiki manner. ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 19:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose, per xaosflux and Amorymeltzer, unless everything is moved on-wiki or I can see working demonstration of how this signature scheme will work (e.g. on testwiki). Cryptography is hard, and just because you think browsers will refuse to load them as there will be a signature mismatch does not make it so. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi and, thanks for your questions. First, we could either add a loader that'd let people know if their browsers were incompatible and automatically unload the script, or add a note saying "Only works with modern Chromium or Gecko-based browsers (such as Chrome and Firefox)". Second, I'm the only one in control of the redwarn.toolforge.org project (see https://admin.toolforge.org/tool/redwarn), along with the WMF staff, of course. If I implement the signature checks, these will be hardcoded in the on-wiki version of RedWarn, meaning I would be unable to edit the off-wiki files without the new signatures being changed in the code by IntAdmins in the on-wiki script or browsers would simply refuse to load them, meaning that IntAdmins are not bypassed at all, as you may fear. I'm willing to transfer the Toolforge project to IntAdmins if these signature checks are not enough. Again, there is only one obfuscated component designed to prevent abuse, this code is open source like the rest of RedWarn and can be removed if necessary. Other dependencies are minified and taken from official sources to ensure the site is not slowed down by RedWarn's loading process. I hope this clarifies your doubts and clears some of your concerns.
 * , please see https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subresource_Integrity - this is what will be used, and this is relied on by many major sites, if we were programming our own signature system I would also be extremely concerned. RE a test, we can arrange that if you like once these checks are implemented, or you can even test with your own local version of RedWarn if you'd like to verify the system yourself. Thanks, <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  19:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I should also add that as far as I know the only browsers that can run/parse RedWarn (i.e. modern ones) have SRI implemented. If it's not supported, the script load will fail with a syntax error and the external scripts will not be implemented. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  20:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. So the idea is that every time any of the redwarn.toolforge.org code is updated (including dependencies), you'll ping an intadmin to update the hash(es)? So long as they don't mind the extra workload, I don't see a problem, but I'd still like to see a demo first. One more question: Who, apart from WMF staff, can view the IP addresses and user agents of people visiting redwarn.toolforge.org? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Suffusion of Yellow, yes, if we do ever update the scripts, that'd be the case, but we'd probably make new script files with new signatures and include the signature changes in a new version of RedWarn along with other changes, but we'll make it clear that we've updated off-wiki elements if we do. Regarding your question, nobody at all, and I will always make sure of that. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  20:20, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Additional workload reviewing changes will be necessary if it is local as well as Ed is not an interface administrator. --Izno (talk) 20:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, we don't have plans to update our dependencies unless a security issue or other major bug occurs. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  20:30, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Compatibility is also an issue. Gadgets must work out of the box on all major browsers.  So far, RedWarn does not work on Android (Microsoft Edge) or WebKit (Safari on iOS, Mac).  It may be better to keep this as a user script, maybe place the script code at RedWarn/code.js and have that page fully protected so that only admins can edit it.
 * Also, @Ed6767, I do not like the canvassing done by notifying existing RedWarn users through the script about the possibility of becoming a gadget. I know you have good intentions, and the notice was very neutral, but even with a neutral message, because you are only notifying a certain group of people, it can create bias that makes consensus extremely difficult to evaluate.  If you want to get more users involved in your discussion, I'd recommend WP:RFC, which notifies a random group of editors from those who subscribed.  You would also hit a few RedWarn users as well. Aasim (talk) 21:34, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup... it seems as if the oppose group mostly do not have RedWarn installed, and the support group mostly do have RedWarn installed. This is something that the closing admin should note.  Users with RedWarn installed appeared to be inappropriately notified of the discussion through the script.  :\  Not saying it can significantly impact consensus; there may be no consensus or the proposal may still be rejected. Aasim (talk) 21:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * There's no "appeared to be" about it * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 21:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * See Participation bias. Aasim (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Whether deliberate or otherwise,, it is misinformation to say that gadgets must work on all major browsers. (And also incorrect to say that Edge is on Android. It is not.) --Izno (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am reading the general criteria... "Gadgets must be compatible with all major browsers." That would include Safari, Chrome, Firefox, Microsoft Edge, and Opera.  Maybe also Internet Explorer.  I'm looking here for major browser information. Aasim (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Awesome Aasim, we're looking at https://analytics.wikimedia.org/dashboards/browsers/#desktop-site-by-browser, which shows that since 2015 the major browsers on the desktop for Wikimedia projects are Chrome and Firefox, which are compatible browsers. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  22:25, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. I guess if you get it to work with Chromium, it will work with many other major browsers that use Chromium, including Chrome, Edge, and Opera.  But I don't know.  If you need, you can get Chromium from . Aasim (talk) 22:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Awesome Aasim, it works with Chromium perfectly, I use it on my laptop, and Chrome itself is Chromium based. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  22:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Awesome Aasim, RedWarn works on Chrome Mobile on Android and I have both tested it and used it thoroughly, I don't know about the issue with Microsoft Edge and will look into it. We are working on Safari support, but this is still a small percentage of desktop visitors, and 300 have already installed without issue. The latest WMF stats show the vast majority of visitors have compatible browsers. An RFC isn't used to propose new gadgets per the listed process at Gadget.
 * Off-topic: In addition, while others may disagree with me, I did not canvass and was extremely careful not to. This thread had no activity in a while, and RedWarn users are likely to be the ones most affected by this decision, so they were notified with an intentionally neutral message:
 * "There is a proposal to make RedWarn a gadget on the English Wikipedia! Voice your opinions for or against RedWarn becoming a gadget by clicking "Read More" and engaging in the discussion. Your participation is appreciated :)"
 * There was no requirement to engage in the discussion, plus this thread may contain details relevant to RedWarn's users (I know many don't actually watch the RedWarn page itself). In addition, Wikipedia works through consensus, not voting, and the stronger arguments so far have come from the opposing side. You could accuse me of vote stacking as I only notified RedWarn users, but I had left this thread on VPT, an already high traffic forum, for days, not to mention the increased participation from RedWarn users has also resulted in participation from non-RedWarn users, which was my intention. In addition, there's no knowing whether or not existing users would want RedWarn to be a gadget or remain a user script until you ask. I take any accusation of canvassing extremely seriously, and if you wish to uphold yours, know this was not deliberate. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  21:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand it was probably not deliberate, just wanted to let you know... :) Aasim (talk) 22:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * My note about obfuscation was in reference to off-wiki, where it's difficult to track down what's being loaded, and near-impossible to follow any changes. ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 16:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, per similar reasons above. Moving everything on-wiki would be a good idea, but I'm not knowledgeable enough on other gadgets/pros and cons of that to bring it into my decision. ThadeusOfNazerethTalk to Me! 20:05, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose per the others, there's too many security issues (among other things) and it just seems unnecessary at this stage. Praxidicae (talk) 20:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose offsite implementation. Besides the specific issues mentioned above, Toolforge is not guaranteed to have the uptime that Wikipedia does, and I really do not want to have to deal with "my gadget is broken" that will show up at WP:VPT any time Toolforge decides to be down for more than a minute. No opinion on local implementation. --Izno (talk) 20:24, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose – gadgets need to be developed and maintained onwiki. If this is not acceptable to the developers, RedWarn might be better suited as a browser add-on or a separate application, like Huggle, Stiki, or AWB. – bradv  🍁  20:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now due to the offsite implementation. RedWarn should ideally be all onwiki before it is made into a gadget. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 20:30, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Big ol' Oppose per bradv/Izno/everyone else who disagrees with a gadget being hosted offwiki. Leave it as it is, it's fine. -- a they/them &#124; argue &#124; contribs 20:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose I strongly agree with others about the offsite implementation. I use RedWarn and I really like it; but the issues raised by others are excellent reasons to not make this a gadget without significant changes. And a promise by the author to not allow IPs to be viewed by anyone isn't much of a guarantee; I'm sure they mean it, but what if the server gets compromised? The current user base is quite small, but if it were made into a gadget the user base would explode. Do you have the infrastructure to support that? Can you ensure privacy for anonymous users? It's a pretty huge burden, and making it a gadget makes it seem like Wikipedia is endorsing/promoting the tool.  M r A urelius R   Talk! 20:44, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Security concerns outweigh arguments for promoting to gadget. Natureium (talk) 20:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi @Natureium and others, would you support if we moved on-wiki? <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  21:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support. It is a very useful tool to have when warning vandals. ImYourTurboLover (talk) 21:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support. RedWarn is my primary method for removing vandalism, warning vandals, etc., and I have found it quicker than any other method. It would be great for more people to have easy access to it. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 22:23, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Neutral, but leaning towards support. To be honest, it probably won't affect me whether it's a gadget, or only a user script. It can be either, and as long as functionality is the same, I'll be fine. JMVR1 🗪 🖉 📫 23:24, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. I have been using this tool extensively, and believe it would benefit from being a gadget, provided it can be hosted on-wiki and kept secure. The interface is intuitive and it has made the workflow for counter-vandalism very efficient for me. I tend to use it with Twinkle, as it offers features that RedWarn does not, which is fine. That said, it would be nice to see where RedWarn can go in the future in incorporating some new features, to make users less dependent on multiple tools. A S U K I T E   04:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support: RedWarn is more effective than Twinkle. <b style="color: black;">Kailash29792</b> (talk)  13:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. RedWarn is a great tool for reverting vandals and I personally think it is more useful than Twinkle. Sun8908 ── Talk  16:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Redwarn continues to gain in popularity as new features are introduced and functionality increases. It's biggest weakness, however, is the lack of compatibility, especially on mobile. There should be available alternatives for editors until compatibility increases. Transcendental (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Redwarn continues to gain in popularity as new features are introduced and functionality increases. It's biggest weakness, however, is the lack of compatibility, especially on mobile. There should be available alternatives for editors until compatibility increases. Transcendental (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion regarding on-wiki hosting
CC: I've noted people oppose using the current off-wiki method of hosting dependencies, even with potential signature checks. If this would prevent RedWarn from becoming a gadget, and while I tried to avoid it, we could work to a compromise to move all the CSS and JS files on-wiki in a way that wouldn't affect performance. If this was the case in the RedWarn gadget, would you support it? i.e. you support making RedWarn a gadget on the condition that is is moved entirely on-wiki. This would exclude files such as fonts and sounds, which will continue to be hosted by the WMF on toolforge, but these contain no scripts that could count as a security issue. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  20:44, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging who may not have seen this.
 * That would solve some of the issues -- but is Wikipedia willing to do that?  M r A urelius R   Talk! 21:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Q1: Can you clarify what you meant by nobody at all having access to IP addresses? Does that include you? Q2: Will the script still work (silently and with perhaps uglier fonts) if the fonts and sounds fail to download? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Suffusion of Yellow Q1: yes, not even me. If I did collect that data without clearly disclosing that I do I would not only be in trouble with the WMF, but the law under the Data Protection Act in the UK. Q2: yes the script will still work fine, plus the fonts would be cached, covering a majority of the downtime issues, and we'll ensure we can notify users (such as through the campaign announcement system) of downtime. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  21:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In that case, I'm not opposed and might be convinced to support. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:43, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If all scripts are onwiki, for accountability purposes if not security (which may well be addressed by other methods proposed), I also feel the biggest concern is resolved. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:05, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a list of all resources you would move on-wiki? ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 16:06, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi @Amorymeltzer, I can indeed:
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/jquery-contextmenu.js - right click menu support
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/jquery-ui-position.js - also for the above
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/dialogPolyfill.js - gecko/others support
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/mdl.js - material design lite (https://getmdl.io)
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/jQuery.js - optional tested jquery version, although we could use the already built in mediawiki copy instead
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/sortable.js - clicking and dragging in preferences menu
 * https://redwarn.toolforge.org/cdn/js/jquery-sortable.js - jquery support for the above
 * You can see the sources where these files have been copied from at RedWarn/Documentation/RedWarn Tools
 * Regarding CSS, is it preferred to move this on-wiki too? If so, I can also provide a list. Thanks, <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed   talk!  02:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like MDL is the Apache license, which means you can't host it here. ~ Amory <small style="color:#555"> (u • t • c) 02:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * At some point you have to question if this is all worth it. The upside is, possibly, more users? Though note some very popular scripts like Reply-link are still not gadgets. The downside is that it's harder to maintain your script, takes longer to update (an IA will need to approve the updates), harder to add features, plus all the time spent making this gadget-compatible which could be used on something else. If it were me I probably wouldn't bother, but YMMV. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I just want to note in order to appease the folks who're concerned about privacy, you can consider using Toolforge's static deployments. Basically, when someone visits
 * the server that responds to the request is written by Ed and team, who can, in theory, intercept the private data. However, if the users are directed to
 * the request is handled by Toolforge's built-in server, which is managed by WMF. It won't be possible for anyone but WMF staff to get their hands on any private data. – SD0001  (talk) 16:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @SD0001, this is incorrect, we can still change these files, see wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Web#Serving_static_files. <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  16:25, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes you can change the content of the files, of course. But you wouldn't have access to the client's HTTP headers and stuff, right? – SD0001  (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @SD0001, I'm we don't have access to that anyway unless you request a PHP page (i.e. RedWarn tools, which is an external website), and all our pages are open source and do not collect that data <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  16:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes you can change the content of the files, of course. But you wouldn't have access to the client's HTTP headers and stuff, right? – SD0001  (talk) 16:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @SD0001, I'm we don't have access to that anyway unless you request a PHP page (i.e. RedWarn tools, which is an external website), and all our pages are open source and do not collect that data <span style="font-family:'Roboto',sans-serif;font-weight:300;text-shadow: 2px 2px 10px black;color:black;">Ed  talk!  16:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Tech News: 2020-49
<section begin="technews-2020-W49"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * The iOS Wikipedia app will show readers more of the article history. They can see new updates and easier see how the article has changed over time. This is an experiment. It will first be shown only to some iOS app users as a test.
 * Octicons-tools.svg The Wiki Replicas can be used for SQL queries. You can use Quarry, PAWS or other ways to do this. To make the Wiki Replicas stable there will be two changes. Cross-database  will no longer work. You can also only query a database if you connect to it directly. This will happen in February 2021. If you think this affects you and you need help you can post on Phabricator or on Wikitech.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2020-W49"/> 17:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Images misaligned on mobile website in infoboxes
Hi. I don't know why, but on some pages with infobox election — e.g. 2019 Bolivian general election and 2020–21 United States Senate special election in Georgia — the images are misaligned on the mobile website. I cannot figure out what causes this. It happens on my phone, on my computer in the mobile site, and in screenshots I've seen of at least these two pages from other people. How can this be fixed? One thing I did is I made sure the aspect ratios of the photos in the Bolivian one are all the same, but that changed nothing apparently.

(This was reposted after the original was archived with no responses).

DemonDays64 (talk) 17:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see any misalignment, but I do see the photos rendered in different sizes when I switch to mobile view (in Firefox for Mac OS). In the desktop view, the photos are all rendered the same size. I recommend that you start a thread at Template talk:Infobox election, the talk page for that template. Including screen shots will be helpful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * that's what I mean -- the sizes are all different in many infoboxes at least for elections. Thanks. Question -- how can I include a screenshot? Idk how that licensing would work; should I just have an imgur link or something? DemonDays64 (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As shown in the box displayed when you edit this page:
 * Would a screenshot help you to describe the problem? If so, please follow the directions at Screenshots of Wikipedia.
 * Third bullet. This is WP:WPSHOT for short. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:28, 30 November 2020 (UTC)