Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 191

Minerva Mobile mode doesn't render small tags
Is that deliberate? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 08:09, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * see this sample page. Notably however,   and default are rendering the same for me in minerva.  I tried with Chrome and with Firefox current builds. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:27, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected! It actually doesn't render in mobile mode (I assumed everything mobile was simply Minerva, without testing it in desktop mode). And indeed, vector in mobile doesn't render and either. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 14:38, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks for update (I added extra link on that page for demo). I think this is disabled by design - good chance that  can point us to any documentation about support for font-size tags with the MobileFrontend extension... —  xaosflux  Talk 14:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What Izno says. These are deprecated HTML tag that browsers may not necessarily support now or in future. Minerva intentionally does not support them for this reason, and we should be working towards moving away from these tags. There are much better alternatives that are more future proof available Jdlrobson (talk) 20:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * &lt;small> is no longer deprecated. Probably worth a Phab task (wherein a technical group can decide whether it should have a smaller font-size now/remove the reset). Izno (talk) 01:32, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The small tag was repurposed in the HTML 5 spec. Where it's used to decrease font size that may or may not be an appropriate usage . Given the small tag can only ever be used by template editors introducing raw HTML I think that is a concern of the template that uses it (using template styles) not a concern of the software itself.
 * Note we only add styles in core for HTML produced by core code. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * the small tag can only ever be used by template editors This is not true. There are currently some 400k uses (times out). Where did you get the idea it was only available in templates? Izno (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Was going to say, that was news to me... SamStrongTalks (talk) 18:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Templates are user generated content. Not the PHP or JS code that powers the MediaWiki software. Jdlrobson (talk) 03:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , why do you think I was confused about the various and sundry notions of template external to the template namespace?... That doesn't answer the question that I asked either. (Sorry to grill you, but I'm really confused about why you're really confused....) Izno (talk) 04:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the confusion. I'm still not 100% sure where I've confused you 🤪 but the point I wanted to get across is as a developer of the MediaWiki software I do not recommend using deprecated HTML tags under any circumstances. The small tag does have meaning in HTML5 but I am working on the assumption that most wikitext that uses these tags uses them with the HTML4 definition since wikipedia predates HTML5 and there are probably better elements that could be used in their place.
 * From a mediawiki software POV it doesn't make sense to provide styling defaults for small (since the definition has changed during the lifetime of Wikipedia), nor does it make sense to provide defaults for big (since it's deprecated).
 * With parsoid we are moving towards HTML5 semantic elements. If styling for small or big is needed they must live in templates or inside MediaWiki:Common.css IMO as wikitext is the only way these elements can end up in the HTML of the page. They are no longer used in the generation of special page HTML for example.
 * Does that make sense of have I made things more confusing? Jdlrobson (talk) 20:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Big is an obsolete HTML element and should not be used. Replace it where you find it with any other template or HTML suitable (perhaps big, perhaps removal entirely). So far as I know, it is reset in the CSS for MobileFrontend to 100% and never made bigger than that, which I understand to be deliberate as it was obsolete.
 * Small on the other hand is somewhat conflicting for me. It was made obsolete for a brief period in HTML 5 but is no longer and is used to mark up some things you would expect to be "small" text, such as disclaimers in television advertisements. It does not mean "small text" however, even though it remains commonly used for that purpose on Wikipedia in a callback to its deprecated use in HTML 4. ("People use tags in the way they are spelled and not necessarily what they mean semantically.")
 * Like big, small is also reset in the same styles for similar reason. Whether it should be 100% font size today is a question mark; that it is named small does not imply that it must make text small, only that it mark up text in the way that HTML 5 expects. Izno (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I now see that has been set to font-size:85% in MW's common.css for the last 5 years. Why doesn't mobile mode pick that up then? Just curious. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 22:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , mobile loads from MediaWiki:Mobile.css, not Common.css. The reason small is in Common.css at all is because it is not consistently rendered by browsers at a certain size, and it is valuable anyway to set it to the minimum onwiki % established (a long time ago when font sizes were smaller -- Monobook's particularly). Izno (talk) 01:39, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This worked for me a while ago (I added it to Special:MyPage/Minerva.js): &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  18:37, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Wrong page – that's CSS, not JS, so you have to put in Special:MyPage/minerva.css. – Rummskartoffel 21:08, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Rummskartoffel Oops, I meant . Thanks for correcting me! &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  21:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging @Guarapiranga &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  18:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, but my concern is with what readers see, not what I see when logged in. Interestingly, as demonstrated above, works in Minerva when in desktop mode even without your hack, as it is set to font-size:85% in MW's common.css (why mobile mode doesn't pick that up is what I'm asking about). Now, out of curiosity, how did you choose 76 and 124%; did you eyeball it, or copy another standard? Cheers. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 ☎ 22:39, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Guarapiranga I originally got got it from here, then doubled the difference to make it stand out more. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  06:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The  element dates back to 1997, with the HTML 3.2 specification (although it was included in the never-adopted HTML 3.0 spec of 1995). Until HTML 4.01, the various specifications merely showed that it rendered text in a small font. Beginning with HTML5 (2014), it has been repurposed to have a semantic meaning, and is used to represent side comments such as small print: small print typically features disclaimers, caveats, legal restrictions, or copyrights; it is also sometimes used for attribution, or for satisfying licensing requirements (see [//www.w3.org/TR/html52/textlevel-semantics.html#the-small-element HTML 5.2 spec]). So it does not necessarily have to use a font size that is physically smaller than the normal font for that passage of text, although most browsers will do that. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:33, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Right. Thanks, . I'll use small instead from now on. Perhaps this should be documented somewhere (where?), and the tag possibly replaced everywhere by the template (IOW, perhaps WP should deprecate the tag to avoid the confusion). — Guarapiranga ☎ 10:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Why do I keep getting signed out?
I clicked on the box to stay signed in each time. This seems to happen whenever I use another computer at a library and I sign in to Wikipedia to see if anyone responded to me or one of my edits.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  22:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Just guessing, but perhaps Wikimedia has instituted some account security safeguards against the current ransomware hijacks. — Maile (talk) 23:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Or maybe the library has disabled cookies in the browser. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:31, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this your sequence of events:
 * Logon at trusted computer, set "stay signed in" option during logon
 * Logon at untrusted computer
 * Logoff from untrusted computer
 * Expect that trusted computer is still logged in, but it is not
 * ? If so, that is expected behavior, logging out from anywhere logs you out from everywhere. —  xaosflux  Talk 23:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is what happens. "trusted computer" is the one in my house.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  16:17, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * currently logging you out anywhere, logs you out of everywhere. Sometimes this message may not display to let you know that is what happened (c.f. T226736).  Being able to log out of only one session is not currently available, see T37220 for the development request for that feature. It is a good idea to be able to log out from everywhere, but I agree it can be annoying (especially with 2FA) and I'd prefer that there were separate functions for logging off a specific session/device and logging off of everywhere. —  xaosflux  Talk 18:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * To prevent this from occurring again,, you could create a public account for use in libraries/work/school/on mobile so that when you leave that public area, you can log out without logging out on your "main" account. Sdrqaz (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Or clear cookies or use incognito mode. Nardog (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I did that but then I never remembered to sign in with that account, so now I use it to test how things are for new users or with the standard preferences. Incidentally, I forgot to sign out at the library and I'm still signed in at home.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  21:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux it is only "expected behavior" from the point of view of the people who built the system. I don't think it's "expected behavior" from the point of view of most users.  I'm not aware of any other auth system anywhere which has that behavior. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:16, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I meant that it is not a malfunction, but yes it could be seen as a UX design issue. T37220 is opened to change to log-out-of-just-this-session, feel free to add additional insights there. —  xaosflux  Talk 18:26, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know what you meant :-) I've already commented there (May 1, 2019). -- RoySmith (talk) 18:38, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Server timing out?
Hello, Village pumpers,

In my work, I do searches on some bots' contributions and I frequently get the message "Server timed out" before any results can be displayed. I don't get this message every time but it's definitely most of the time. I also work on a laptop, not my phone. So, I'm wondering is there anything I can do on my end to extend the amount of time given to a search so I don't get a "timed out" message? Or is this a pretty uniform result that every editor would get if they did the same search?

Thanks for any help you can offer. Liz Read! Talk! 00:33, 6 July 2021 (UTC)


 * @Liz can you be a bit more specific on what requests are timing out/what data you're trying to look up? Examples would be helpful. Legoktm (talk) 07:51, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, Legoktm, what I'm doing is looking at contributions in a particular name space and "Only show edits that are latest revisions" box checked and that is no problem. All the results are displayed. But when I try to view "Oldest" edits, that's when the system times out. As an alternative, I've tried to go backwards in time with these selected results, clicking "Older 200" repeatedly but it always sticks at the last group of oldest edits in this selection. I've tried it with several different bots and it's usually the same results...timed out when trying to view the oldest edits in this selection of contributions. Oh, and this selection of edits isn't old edits, they have all occurred in the past 12 months. Liz Read! Talk! 21:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You guys are brilliant here and this can't be an unique problem. Is there anything I can do to lengthen the amount of time an action can take before the server times out? Liz Read! Talk! 05:19, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The namespace filter is just slow (I found some historical discussion from 2011 when our then-volunteer database admin disabled the feature for a while), and if that account hasn't made any edits in that namespace recently, it'll probably time out. There's no way to bypass the 60 second timeout, it's global across all requests.
 * However, you can use Quarry and other tools to run slower queries to get the same data. If there's a common pattern/theme to your requests, it shouldn't be too difficult to build a slow tool that gets you the data you're looking for. Legoktm (talk) 08:35, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you, Legoktm, you answered my question about whether I could do anything to extend the amount of time for the server to do its sorting. I don't know much about Quarry except that usually when I ask a technical question, someone gives me a link to it. I guess my last question is where should I go next to learn about using it or ask for assistance? And remember, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. ;-} Liz Read! Talk! 02:26, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Request a query is a dedicated page for this kind of thing, m:Research:Quarry has some more detail. However asking on this page is totally fine too :) Legoktm (talk) 07:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Search script
Is there any way to see talk pages when you are searching? For example, if I search for "Nepal" it would display like this. If there is please let me know. Thanks. Bada Kaji (talk • श्रीमान् गम्भीर) 12:47, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you enable Navigation popups at Special:Preferences then you get these options and more when you hover over a link and then "action". PrimeHunter (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Moved a page, talk page didn't go with it
I just moved King Arthur's Hall, Tintagel to King Arthur's Great Halls, but for some reason the talk page Talk:King Arthur's Hall, Tintagel didn't get moved with it. I'm sure that whenever I've moved a page before the talk page has gone along for the ride. I've now moved the talk page, but is this some kind of site improvement, a momentary glitch, or something else? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 09:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Move associated talk page" is a checkbox on the move form, e.g. at Special:MovePage/Example. It's enabled by default, at least for me. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And it's enabled by default for me. So why didn't it work? DuncanHill (talk) 21:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Bug fixing is needed!
Try going to the page of Dong_Jingwei (a man), then switch to its counterpart in the Standard Chinese language (中文). The unrelated page of 浮游生物 (plankton) turns up. The problem is one way, i.e. the language-switching links on the latter's page function normally. Who can get rid of this error?--165.228.11.59 (talk) 09:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It was introduced here by, apparently in error. I have removed it, and the article now links correctly to the Chinese page. DuncanHill (talk) 09:48, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for teaching us. I shall be able to fix similar problems on my own next time. The trick in short: Someone probably played a joke by adding ' 浮游生物 ' to the article.--165.228.11.59 (talk) 11:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Odd google image search link to article
(per User talk:Bogger)

A google image search of "Edwin J. McEnelly" shows a link to the article but with an unrelated image (two men posing for a photo). Any ideas? Bogger (talk) 09:58, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The images are taken from Google's own search index and not from Wikipedia. Your best bet is to use the button. Kleinpecan (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We get many such posts. See Template:HD/GKG for a stock reply. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:36, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , does this file possibly exist on Wikipedia or at Commons? Reverse image searches find no sign of where the file came from, other than here. Could it have been inadvertently transcluded onto the article? Home Lander (talk) 01:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a completely different case. Google Images specifically shows the unrelated image as their cached thumbnail of https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Edwin.jpg. My guess is that the hash of our image somehow collided with that of the other image in their database. Nardog (talk) 03:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Images at commons:File:Edwin.jpg were deleted 14 October 2017 and 30 December 2020. I don't have access to see them. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, that must be it. The only living contribution of the uploader of the 2020 image, on the Spanish Wikipedia, contains a mention of an artist named Edwin, who resembles the guy on the left in the picture in question. It's still weird considering the old image was deleted six months ago and the new one has been up for two months. Nardog (talk) 11:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Additional discussion started at Commons:Commons:Village_pump/Technical. Home Lander (talk) 01:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Weird user page revision
What on earth was going on with this revision of User:Catcallofcthulhu? It caused my main screen reader JAWS to freeze for a couple of seconds, along with causing Chrome to crash when I tried to edit it, because of its extreme line length. Is this what passes for ASCII/Unicode art these days? I'm asking here because, apart from one other edit that brought them to my attention, their edits seem generally good, and I figured that people here would have the best explanations. I've written a message on the user's talk page but they use the mobile app so they may or may not see it. Graham 87 16:25, 10 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Unicode has all sorts of weird sideways-reading fonts that seem to be mostly good for this sort of stuff. I was going to suggest that a user's freedom to express themselves on their user page reaches its limit when it breaks other people's browsers, but I see you've fixed that already. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems to be Zalgo text that decodes to "This user is fdşag". No, I have no idea what that means either. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:31, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * A google search for fdsag reveals that, um, well, I guess what it reveals is that I'm enough older than the current generation of kool kids that I've lost all hope of understanding WTF they're talking about. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:36, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, wow you learn something every day! Graham 87 16:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The g is fdsag is not supposed to be there, it is defined here: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fdsa . Spelling is not really important to these youngings.--Snævar (talk) 07:19, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I see what you did there😉 Catcallofcthulhu (talk) 07:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That's literally just me hitting random keys. Catcallofcthulhu (talk) 07:07, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

List of all usernames?
Is a list of all usernames on enwiki available somewhere as a file? I would have thought it would be in the XML dumps, as a dump of the user table, but I'm not seeing it there. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:20, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Special:ListUsers. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:50, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Depending on what you want to do with it, what you are looking for may be available here. — xaosflux  Talk 23:47, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I found enwiki-20210701-user_groups.sql, but that's just the users that are admins and groups like that. I'm looking for a list of all the usernames as a file, so I can slice it and dice it with regular unix command-line tools.  I may end up writing something trivial that walks the user table and dumps it into a file, but it just seems weird that such a thing doesn't already exist in the dumps. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:36, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This sounds like T51132. Depending on what fields you want, it should be fairly trivial for a sysadmin to run an export of this if you ask (especially if it is a one-time).  Now you mentioned, "enwiki" so do you really only want an account if it is attached here, or would the SUL list work? —  xaosflux  Talk 01:02, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I assume the SUL list is a superset of the enwiki list? Either would be fine for my purpose.  If somebody could do a one-off export for me, that would be excellent.  How does one normally request something like that?  Open a phab ticket? -- RoySmith (talk) 02:24, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Have you tried generating such a list on toolforge with a sql query? -  F ASTILY   06:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll try that (query 56702 is running) but expect it to time out. — xaosflux  Talk 11:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Nope, too big. — xaosflux  Talk 10:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux just out of curiosity, what were you expecting to do next if it didn't time out? The query would have returned 41M rows.  How would you have gotten them out of quarry into a file?
 * In any case, thanks for trying. I've opened  -- RoySmith (talk) 15:46, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Just split the query. Chunks of a million at a time take about 5 seconds each to query and another 5 to compress.  —Cryptic 16:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks! -- RoySmith (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Coords and WikiMiniAtlas link in image caption drawn from coord data in the image file
See here for the discussion leading up to this. The coordinates of the object an image is of are often not the same as the coords of the subject of the article. It would be nice to have the option of placing a WikiMiniAtlas coord link, as coord does, inside an image caption, but the WikiMiniAtlas link pops up inside the image caption space and so disappears if placed last in the caption. As an IP in the linked discussion pointed out, there's also a risk of having the coords in the caption not match the coords in the image file. Could a template be built that would be placed inside an image caption or as part of the extended image syntax, that would retrieve the coords from the image file and display a readable WikiMiniAtlas link in or next to the image or its caption? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there any way to sort Lua functions?
Is there any information, like id or hash, that can be extracted from Lua functions (without calling them) to at least partially sort them, in an array? Alexiscoutinho (talk) 13:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * would you elaborate on what you are trying to do? For a specific script, there can be wide use of both builtin and script defined functions.  A hash of something is unlikely to result something useful for a sortkey for anything other than looking for duplicates. —  xaosflux  Talk 13:54, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I was referring to Lua functions in modules. It could be used to quickly compare the equality of two initially unordered tables/arrays. Alexiscoutinho (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What I actually wanted to do was to hash a set (represented by a table) containing immutable data types, but then I noticed sorting functions would not help as they would still have to be converted to a string ("function") before calculating the hash. Only the number of functions in the set would be meaningful thus there would be more collisions... But I just thought the original question remained relevant. My suggestion above could be used to increase collision handling speed. Alexiscoutinho (talk) 14:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No. The best you can do is muck around such as in Module:Dump, search for "onames[var]". Johnuniq (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Template:Section link: Tentative fix for minor bug.
Hi,

I noticed an instance of undocumented/unexpected behaviour in said template: There's an optional "display" parameter to be used when markup needs to be applied to the page name, such as italicizing a work's title, which works when there's only one "section" parameter but doesn't work when there are several. I looked at the source code, and the cause seems straightforward: Handling of the optional parameter was only implemented within the single-section branch.

In Module:Section link/sandbox, I moved the relevant logic into a new function which is being called from both branches, and it looks like it's working: The Template:Section link/testcases are all green, except for #14, demonstrating error handling, and #17, which I added to demonstrate the fix.

However, this brings the grand total of number of times in my life I've worked with Lua to two, so it might not be the worst idea for someone slightly more conversant to take a closer look before un-sandboxing the fix.

Cheers,

- 2A02:560:4259:7600:D74:5C5B:9A6D:FD9F (talk) 19:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Invoking scripts from the url
I vaguely remember seeing this done somewhere, perhaps on a script demo, but my search yielded no results. Is this possible? What I mean is running a script by adding an argument to the url, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?script=example.js — Guarapiranga (talk • contribs) 13:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The correct URL parameter is  and the script must be in the MediaWiki namespace. So the correct url pattern would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?withJS=MediaWiki:[script].js. –  Brandon XLF  (talk) 14:39, 14 July 2021 (UTC)


 * You're a legend, ! Cheers.
 * Wait, does that then mean no can do with user scripts (i.e. scripts in the User space)? — Guarapiranga ☎ 21:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, only MediaWiki namespace is allowed for security reasons. We don't want normal users to be able to get others to load arbitrary JavaScript by clicking a Wikipedia link. JavaScript in the MediaWiki namespace can only be edited by interface administrators. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:10, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course!, . — Guarapiranga ☎ 04:18, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Should edit notices be shown by the reply tool?
I left some feedback for the Reply Tool developers noting that it doesn't show page notices. Apparently this is a deliberate design decision, which I disagree with. Folks might want to comment on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Wcrovxjwvulr9n2g. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

How to create my own wiki
Hello, how should I create my own wiki using MediaWiki software (outside of WMF?) I don't know how, and I want to know the steps and how much time it takes. 54nd60x (talk) 05:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You can read mw:Manual:Installation guide. Ruslik_ Zero 07:32, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I used Xowa, but I can't seem to find my wiki website. Can you give me instructions for this please? Thanks. 54nd60x (talk) 08:32, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you're having problems with Xowa, might I suggest https://www.reddit.com/r/xowa/ as a better place to get support. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not that I'm having problems with Xowa, but that I need more detailed instructions. I don't know what is most appropriate for this, but I want to create my own wiki using MediaWiki software (outside of WMF.) It won't be an encyclopedia, but it will just be used by myself to test some of the features of the software by myself so I can install skins etc. What is the most appropriate tool I could use for this? 54nd60x (talk) 03:18, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this is the wrong form for such questions. However if you want to set up your own testing wiki, I suggest Miraheze – Berrely P • T∕C 07:55, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * mw:Project:Support desk is the correct place to ask about setting up MediaWiki. You will need more details of what you have and have not done when you comment there. As Berrely notes, this is not the correct place to ask about MediaWiki support. Izno (talk) 18:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Tags
Hello, I saw this edit which has an edit summary of "Tags: Golygu ar declyn symudol Golygiad gwe symudol" Any idea where this tag information is coming from? Keith D (talk) 21:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I already started a thread Village_pump_(miscellaneous). DuncanHill (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Welsh!
If your interface language is set to en-gb - British English, some interface messages will be in Welsh, not English. This is because someone contributed translations to the wrong language on translatewiki.net. The translations will be removed from Wikimedia servers soon, but you can fix the problem for yourself by switching to en - English in Special:Preferences. MediaWiki does not normally include translations in en-gb, and many interface customizations on the English Wikipedia are not available in en-gb. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Glad it's not just me then! Jr8825  •  Talk  11:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a consequence of Brexit. Now we're out of Europe, we've started a gradual transition back to the language of the indigenous inhabitants of these parts. Starting, of course, with Wikipedia.--Verbarson (talk) 17:19, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that  is strongly discouraged here, if we could remove en-variants completely I'd be quite happy.  The reason why is that you will miss out of most all localized messages. —  xaosflux  Talk 17:31, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We're starting to get questions pertaining to this at the Teahouse and the help desk, which we're redirecting here for answers. I'm not sure how much of the userbase is affected by this, but would a temporary banner telling people to not use  be helpful? — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * A banner? No. The ticket above should take care of this. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:04, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

regex search timing out
I have several hundred saved searches, which I use to find misspellings, duplicate words etc. These have all worked perfectly well, for several years, until yesterday, when I started getting
 * "A warning has occurred while searching: The regex search timed out, so only partial results are available. Try simplifying your regular expression to get complete results"

As I can't "simplify the search", and still get the right results, the only way for me to get the full search results is to keep refreshing the search, often 4 or 5 times. Has the regex "time-out" period changed? Are the servers currently running slower? Or is there another reason I have suddenly started getting problems? and, the inevitable question, what is the way to resolve it? (W10, Edge, Vector) - Many thanks - Arjayay (talk) 12:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I am getting similar problems, been happening for a couple of days. Also the time for a change to appear in the search results has degraded considerably, yesterday it took over 6 hours for the search results to be updated for a change. Keith D (talk) 13:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Arjayay, is this still a problem? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Whatamidoing (WMF) - no problems with the regex in the last 12 hours - although the time for changes to appear in the search results, as reported by Keith D, is still much slower than usual. - Arjayay (talk) 20:39, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm glad that it's working again. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Non clickable button
How do you get as non-clickable? &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  06:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe this is not possible using normal wikisyntax, only with JavaScript. This is because in order to disable the button, you would need a HTML element that supports the disabled="" attribute. However, none of the elements that support this attribute are allowed to be contained in Wikitext as they are either derivates of, , or require the  tag. Victor Schmidt (talk) 06:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm missing something here, but template "button 2" is by definition a clickable button. Maybe you want Template "button" which gives an unclickable button: ?--Shantavira|feed me 07:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Shantavira I was asking how to get a button identical to the one in my first post, but non-clickable. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  13:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * How about this:

Publish changes --Shantavira|feed me 15:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll use this: Publish changes | &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  15:42, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Shantavira @Victor Schmidt It looks different on mobile (the padding is a lot bigger). Any idea how to fix this? &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  19:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry I don't, I never use mobile view.--Shantavira|feed me 07:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't mean mobile view (I never use it either). I mean on my mobile device. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  12:43, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging @Shantavira &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  12:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have no idea how to fix that.--Shantavira|feed me 13:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll move it to VPT. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  20:45, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Publish changes – . Nardog (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there a way to filter navbox links out of Special:WhatLinksHere?
When I take (or find) a good photo, oftentimes I will go hunting around for topical articles that don't have illustrations in them. One good way to do this is Special:WhatLinksHere. However, I've noticed that, for example, Special:WhatLinksHere/San Luis Reservoir is nearly useless for finding related articles, since the reservoir is linked to by a few widely used navboxes. Protected areas of California, in particular, links to San Luis Reservoir and is transcluded on some 627 pages -- which means that there are 627 inbound links for the article that are tangentially (if at all) related to its topic, like Golden Gate National Recreation Area and Yosemite National Park.

It seems to me like there ought to be some way to use computers to produce a WhatLinksHere page that only includes links from article body text. I am considering writing one, but would like to see if the issue has already been addressed by someone else first. jp×g 21:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , something like this? --Trialpears (talk) 21:38, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That would fail to return pages that have the navbox but also link to the page in the body. Nardog (talk) 21:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I usually just search for . It gets a bit cumbersome if you want to find links to redirects as well, but it works fine most of the time. If the page name is too generic, add   to get links only. Nardog (talk) 21:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * These both seem like smart things to do, and seem like they will solve my problem. Thanks to you both -- I'll try this, and see if it works (and if it doesn't I will still consider writing something for it). jp×g 21:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you write something, please let me know. I often find myself staring at those lists and finding the links hardly helpful in figuring out what actually links there. Gonnym (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I have this custom MoreMenu link:  Nardog (talk) 23:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You can use User:PrimeHunter/Source links.js. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I can highly recommend PrimeHunter's offering. I find it invaluable. DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, wow, this kicks ass! More people ought to know about this script. Let's see what pages link to it..... :^) jp×g 00:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Now easily found here or with 🤣 Shushugah (talk) 00:31, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's : . PrimeHunter (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Mark Twain
The title of the article Mark Twain is somehow italicised. I have removed a template:italictitle from the article, but it has not fixed the issue. Perhaps it is due to another template. I am grateful if someone could fix it or shed some light on the problem. Cheers-- Chanaka L ( talk ) 05:58, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It was in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, added here. This was a particularly bad idea (and I assume it was rather a mistake) because in most articles that could use italic title, it's added by Infobox book, Infobox film, etc. anyway. Nardog (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice that you have located and fixed the issue. Nice work, cheers!-- Chanaka L ( talk ) 08:38, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

How to get the REVISIONMONTH of a different page from the page being displayed
I tried to set up Infobox chess player to display the revision month of the Elo rating template by including the magic word {REVISIONMONTH} in Elo rating. I thought that it was working, but when I look at Mamikon Gharibyan (please do not edit that page, so that others can view the problem), {REVISIONMONTH} accurately shows "March 2020", the revision month of the article, rather than the revision month of Elo rating. This means that {REVISIONMONTH} is working properly, but not the way I hoped it would.

Is there a template or other way to write something like  so that I can display the revision month of the template when I am viewing an article? – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:22, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You want  * Pppery * it has begun...  14:32, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I changed the Elo rating template accordingly, and now the correct timestamp is being displayed on Mamikon Gharibyan. Joriki (talk) 14:49, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Groovy! Is that documented anywhere? I didn't see it at Help:MAGIC. Oh, there it is: "The magic words above can also take a parameter...." – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:54, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Black text on black background
I use the black background with green text gadget, set in my perferences. In the last few days I've noticed things like "" displaying as black text on a black background (I can see the text if I click and highlight). In the past I think that's only happened when someone deliberately sets the font colour to black. Has something changed somewhere? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 21:44, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In the absence of an explicit value for the color parameter, uses the style declaration   - this is documented. This has been the behaviour since the template was created nine years ago. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:24, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Arabic variants font
Hi,

We have an issue here regarding the font selected by the OS/browser to display varieties of Arabic such as South Levantine Arabic (ajp) and North Levantine Arabic (apc). Apparently on Windows 10, using Firefox, Edge, or Chrome, the following words don't look the same and may not be readable depending on the language code used: ‏احنا‎ (ar) ‏احنا‎ (ajp) ‏احنا‎ (apc) // (ar)  (ajp)  (apc) On MacOS + Chrome/Firefox/Safari everything looks OK. Do you know if there's a way to solve this problem?

(I initially posted this question there but it seems here is a better place, so I copy/pasted it...) A455bcd9 (talk) 22:08, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Using Edge in Windows 10, and starting the Developers Tools, it appears that in the paragraph above the 'ar' script is rendered in Segoe UI, but the 'ajp' and 'apc' scripts are rendered in Arial. This explains why they look different, but I don't know what mechanism causes the selection of a different font for each script.--Verbarson (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Simple Windows doesn't have these particular arabic glyphs available in Segoe UI, and it thus falls back to a font which does have the characters available. By default Windows doesn't install all fonts of every language (it takes up a lot of space) if the language isn't likely to be spoken in your region. You only get a basic set. If you want full support for languages on Windows, you have to install the language packs. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for your answers. @TheDJ: I don't understand your point. The characters are exactly the same in the examples, the only difference is the language code selected. So for me, the question is why Windows displays the same characters in different scripts depending on the language code. And I have no idea... A455bcd9 (talk) 14:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * in short, we (Wikipedia) don't specify the special font for that - we only include a language declaration on the element, it is up to the browser (and generally the underlying operating system) to determine if it wants to do something special with it. The ability to do this may be limited if certain languages are not installed in the OS/browser. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:14, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Do you have any idea how users can solve this problem on Windows? Then we could display some warning/help like Template:Contains special characters. A455bcd9 (talk) 14:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As was already mentioned above, install additional system language packages from the manufacturer. — xaosflux  Talk 17:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I know (and I also checked on Microsoft's website), there's no language pack for ajp and apc on Windows, unfortunately. Do you have any idea of where we could find help? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You could go ask over at w:ar:%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9 - they will probably be more familiar with technicalities of that language. — xaosflux  Talk 18:48, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think people on the Modern Standard Arabic (ar) Wikipedia won't have any idea at all of this problem which only concerns ajp (South Levantine) and apc (North Levantine), which are different languages from ar. (and I don't speak Modern Standard Arabic anyway... ^^). And unfortunately, neither ajp nor apc has a Wikipedia. So I asked the question on superuser. A455bcd9 (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

This page (article?) on the W3C site shows how to associate specific HTML   tags with a particular font using CSS. I take it that it is possible to create a personal CSS file that will link the 'ajp' and 'apc' lang attributes to Segoe UI, to stop them defaulting to Arial. However, I don't have the wiki-skills to test it. (It might even be desirable to do this as a default in Wikipedia, but that seems a much bigger topic.)--Verbarson (talk) 13:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)


 * This would be amazing. Not only for 'ajp' and 'apc': I guess all varieties of Arabic suffer from the same problem. This means the 28 languages in the Arabic macrolanguage (excluding Standard Arabic, ar/arb) and the 6 from the Judeo-Arabic macro-language. Among these languages, arz (Egyptian) and ary (Moroccan) have their own Wikipedia. (arq may be next...).
 * do you have the same issue on Windows 10 with ary and arz when you visit their own Wikipedia? And what about these examples: ‏احنا‎ (ar) ‏احنا‎ (arz) ‏احنا‎ (ary) // (ar)  (arz)  (ary) A455bcd9 (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Strangely enough, both ary and arz are rendered in Segoe UI in Firefox, Chrome and Edge. Apc is rendered in Segoe UI in Chrome and Edge, but Arial in Firefox. Ajp is rendered in Arial in all three browsers. SarahFatimaK (talk) 06:20, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It may be that because ary and arz have their own Wikipedia, the CSS was modified to associate these lang tags with a particular font. I asked the question on the ary Wikipedia.
 * For Firefox there was this ticket 7 years to change the font of arz, they may have added apc but not ajp (mistake?)?
 * What about arq (Algerian)? ‏احنا‎ (ar) ‏احنا‎ (arq) // (ar)  There's also an arq Wikipedia in the incubator which is quite active so they may have setup a special CSS as well. Does the font look okay there?
 * Another solution, but only for registered users, as suggested in Lang ("Applying styles"): "Registered users can apply custom CSS styles to articles by placing style declarations in their user style sheet. [...] To apply a specific font to all text marked as [...] of any script or region:" A455bcd9 (talk) 08:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Algerian looks fine (Segoe UI) in all three browser. I know that it's possible to setup own styles, but they only apply to the own accout. Most people who read Wikipedia articles probably aren't registred users. It would be nice if Wikipedia can define styles for apc and ajp as well or basically the same style for all Arabic dialects. SarahFatimaK (talk) 11:16, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * A global solution would be great, but success depends on linking each language code (from a known finite list - could be done) with a font that is present on the PC of every reader. I don't have Segoe UI on the laptop I'm currently using. You would have to find a set of acceptable fonts (ie look good - which may be subjective - and are GPL or equivalent or public domain), that cover every lang code, and download the correct one(s) on demand to any user that browses to an article using non-Latin characters. Sounds impracticable to me. Instead, what about a template that says: 'This article uses this script with language code . If it doesn't look good enough for you, go to this wikilink for further advice.' where the wikilink tells them how to pick a font and set up the CSS?--Verbarson (talk) 21:21, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * Regarding the template: yes, good idea, I'll try to do this.
 * Regarding a global solution: I think that 99% of people interested in Arabic variants such as ajp and apc are also interested in (Modern Standard) Arabic (ar) and therefore have Arabic fonts on their computer. So we just want ajp and apc to use the same mainstream fonts as ar. It doesn't sound impracticable to me, did I make a mistake in my reasoning? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:46, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at the template.
 * Re Global solution: It is possible to tell the browser 'If Lang is "ajp" then use Segoe UI (if present)'. But I don't see a way to tell the browser 'If lang is "ajp" use the same font as for "ar"'. What I am curious about, but cannot find an answer for, is why Edge/Chrome displays lang:ar in Segoe UI, but falls back to Arial for lang:ajp etc. It doesn't happen on Lubuntu/Chrome (though that may be because I don't have Segoe UI on that combination). Is there some default CSS that associates lang:ar with Segoe UI? Or does the browser have secret information that Segoe UI has the best/most complete character set for lang:ar. (Admittedly Arabic is a widely-used script, in international terms, so picking a global default may make practical sense for Chrome.)
 * Further thought: I don't suppose it is possible to associate a CSS file with a specific article? --Verbarson (talk) 18:36, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Also found this Chrome extension. "Advanced Font Settings - Customize per-script font settings. This extension allows you to customize font settings for different language scripts. For example, you can set the default font for Simplified Chinese content to be different than the font for Japanese content..." and so on. I have no personal knowledge, but it looks easier than setting up CSS, and will apply to all sites not just Wikipedia.--Verbarson (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * According to people on the Moroccan Wikipedia, part of the problem is to add the language code on this GitHub file, so I did a pull request yesterday about this, wait and see...: https://github.com/wikimedia/language-data/pull/165
 * As you said, Arabic is widely used so I think most if not all main operating systems and browsers have a default "Arabic font". For instance, Geeza Pro on MacOS apparently. A455bcd9 (talk) 07:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC) A455bcd9 (talk) 07:15, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've been told by one contributor on the Moroccan Arabic Wikipedia (ary) to use this file:https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css
 * There's "Fonts per language" (with various languages written in Perso-Arabic script) and "RTL Languages". I asked people on the incubator to add ajp to the RTL language list. Regarding the font I need to check if we want tahoma (the font suggested for languages written in Perso-Arabic script in the file).
 * There's something similar on Wikipedia according to Common.js and common.css. It is this file: MediaWiki:Common.css
 * I think that the "Fonts per language" and "RTL Languages" from the Incubator's Common.css file should be copied into the MediaWiki:Common.css. According to the disclaimer on that file: "Any major changes to this page should first be proposed on its talk page or the Village pump." So... should I post a message on its talk page or is it enough to talk about it here? A455bcd9 (talk) 06:30, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is the task that the Moroccan community filed back then. Suggest doing the same. Local hacks should only be used as a very last resort. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Also this does also seem like a browser support issue, and even a CLDR issue indeed. Tickets should be filed for those specifically, so that every software vendor can benefit. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi ,
 * I've already made a pull request on the same file as the one edited by Moroccan contributors: https://github.com/wikimedia/language-data/pull/165
 * Do I also need to open a ticket on Phabricator about this pull request?
 * Also, I think this pull request only affects directionality (to have right to left text, instead of left to right) but it seems unrelated to the font issue. Should I open another ticket on Phabricator about the font issue? (or do you mean by "Tickets should be filed for those specifically" that I should open tickets for each browser on their own ticketing system?) A455bcd9 (talk) 12:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Do I also need to open a ticket on Phabricator about this pull request?" Yes. Phabricator is the primary tracking tool of issues. Pull requests might go unnoticed for a while. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The font issue likely is because the correct information is not in CLDR and thus NOT used by the operating system and the browsers and therefor the primary cause of the incorrect font being selected by those. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:50, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I opened a ticket on Phabricator: T286290
 * I understand well, CLDR = Common Locale Data Repository and I need to open a ticket for CLDR to create a new locale for ajp here, right? I'll try to do it now... A455bcd9 (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * CLDR ticket created here. I think the issue is that according to CLDR rules for languages with a macrolanguage (such as Arabic national colloquial variants) the local code (ajp or apc for instance) shouldn't be used but instead ar-COUNTRY_CODE. However for Levantine, there's no country code for "the Levant" (should be LB + JO + IL + PS + SY + TR + EG + CY). A455bcd9 (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * posted a potential explanation there. I copy it here:
 * "I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's a Firefox thing. It sometimes applies some extra font logic for certain languages when it sees the HTML lang attribute, for example Arabic and Korean, and maybe some others. Codes like ajp are much more rarely used in comparison to ar, so Firefox doesn't do anything with them. Sometimes it does it totally incorrectly: for example, it tries to apply a Korean font to language code koi, which is completely unrelated to Korean. I think that Chrome doesn't do it. The only thing I can think of is to apply explicit fonts to everything and force it to be the same, although it's probably overkill."
 * As the problem seems to happen on Firefox, Chrome, and Edge on Windows (but not on macOS), I don't understand your reasoning Amire80, could you please elaborate? Thanks a lot! A455bcd9 (talk) 07:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, maybe I'm wrong! Maybe it's not just Firefox. Maybe it's more of a Windows thing. I mostly use a Mac these days, and I couldn't reproduce it on a Mac. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:48, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Just making a test here to display the different languages and their respective font: Here's how they look on:
 * Chrome 91 on macOS (Catalina): https://i.ibb.co/G3nZk4P/Screen-Shot-2021-07-09-at-08-45-31.png
 * Chrome 91 on Android 10: https://i.ibb.co/56GMRt5/20210709-090337.jpg
 * Firefox 89 on macOS (Catalina): https://i.ibb.co/KW4bFZZ/Screen-Shot-2021-07-09-at-09-08-48.png
 * Safari 14.1 on macOS (Catalina): https://i.ibb.co/QfG4nnp/Screen-Shot-2021-07-09-at-09-11-48.png

They all look good to me. And on a given configuration, all characters are displayed identically. (Update: I added the "en" line after I took the screenshot, so that's why it's not displayed...)

If they look different and/or weird on your browser, please post a screenshot with your operating system + browser version (for instance using https://www.whatismybrowser.com/ ). A455bcd9 (talk) 07:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Why are you asking us to use a third-party website? In what way does WP:WPSHOT fail? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 07:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you please assume good faith: WP:GF? I didn't know WP:WPSHOT. I've just read it, it seems so complex and long that I won't use it (unless it's mandatory). It takes me a few seconds to take a screenshot and then host it on this third-party website. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * They look different on W10 Edge (Chromium) Version 91.0.864.64 (Official build) (64-bit):
 * [[File:Scripts W10 Edge(Chrome).JPG]]
 * (Edit) The wider renderings are Segoe UI, the narrower ones are Arial.
 * --Verbarson (talk) 09:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the fonts really look terrible :( ... And here is how it looks on Windows 10 + Firefox, courtesy of who took the screenshot and sent it to me: W10 FF. apc looks fine (Segoe UI, I guess), whereas ajp (and en) are not readable (Arial I guess). A455bcd9 (talk) 10:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's a solution used by the English Wiktionary: wikt:MediaWiki:Common.css
 * I understand that all characters written in "Arab" script are displayed in 'Iranian Sans', or 'Segoe UI' (if the Iranian Sans isn't available).
 * So if we modify MediaWiki:Common.css accordingly, it would probably solve the problem on the English Wikipedia. Then we problem would still be present on other Wikimedia projects (especially Wikipedia and Wiktionary in other languages). A455bcd9 (talk) 10:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * When you posted here, you were shown this notice; see the third bullet. As regards ibb.co, I do not trust the kind of javascript that it attempts to run when I visit it; it also goes against WP:ELNO because of the objectionable advertising: I don't want to know about Gorgeous single ladies (near you) or some of the stronger phrases used there. Those are two reasons why we prefer people to follow WP:WPSHOT. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I use the "Discussion tools" in Beta so I think I had never seen this notice. You're right, a direct link to the image would be better, I changed links. A455bcd9 19:33, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * On Phabricator, I opened:
 * One ticket for directionality, if I understand, the problem will sort itself out once we complete the translation of the "Most used" messages on TranslateWiki.
 * One for the font issue on Windows 10, still no answer. A455bcd9 (talk) 07:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As discussed, I created a template to warn users, not sure it's the good or best way to do though... A455bcd9 (talk) 10:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , I really like it. It looks good on Levantine Arabic and points to helpful documentation. Thank you.
 * Of course, there are lots of ways it might be made even better; I have started a list at Template talk:Contains Levantine characters. Consider it a reward for work well done.--Verbarson (talk) 10:03, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, I'll have a look! By the way, followed the Template's instructions and it now works fine on Windows 10 + Firefox. A455bcd9 (talk) 13:50, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Toolbar translation


Hello! I have a question related to TranslateWiki.

Can someone tell me where I can find the group of messages in regard to the toolbar in the photo? Not really sure about its exact name. I'm mostly interested in translating the remained English terms under "Futni". I'm looking for something like this if that's possible. - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Try visiting [], it shows you the page names of the messages used (MediaWiki:Wikihiero-visualeditor-mwhieroinspector-title is one example). This trick works on any page. As you can see the messages that are not included in the VisualEditor group are defined in the group of other extensions, namely wikihero, score, math, graph and cite. The dialogs that pop up when you click those options also have messages in those same groups.--Snævar (talk) 11:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks for the reply! Would it be too much to ask from you if you did send me the links to all the groups that you mentioned, assuming those are all the groups that are related to it? The reason I say that is because the question, along with the screenshot was given to me by another user. My toolbar, if I'm not wrong, is not the same as the one he's showing in that screenshot and I'm not very fond on experimenting on my preferences because I've had problems in the past with those. If you could give me the list of links to those groups, I can just copy-paste them to the said user and tell them to search on those or possibly translate them all. - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, but translating those groups would also involve translating for support with the wikicode editor, these groups are not only connected to VisualEditor. I picked UI (short for User Interface) only groups where there where ones (for Math and Graph). Cite was allready fully done in your language, so I skipped listing that one.


 * https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-wikihiero&language=sq&filter=!translated
 * https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-score&language=sq&filter=!translated
 * https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-math-user&language=sq&filter=!translated
 * https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-graph-user&language=sq&filter=!translated
 * https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=ext-syntaxhighlightgeshi&language=sq&filter=!translated
 * --Snævar (talk) 16:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks a lot! :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Klein Muçi, you may be interested in the qqx trick.
 * This link to TranslateWiki.net will give you a list of all of the messages in VisualEditor that still need to be translated to Albanian. There are currently seven. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * yes, thank you! We're working as a community to fully translate those. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 06:55, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

503 errors
I'm getting a lot of 503 errors, such as this one on the List of shipwrecks in 1791 - Request from 2a02:c7d:c22:8000:80bb:d466:4f8c:e79c via cp3058 cp3058, Varnish XID 401023227 Error: 503, Backend fetch failed at Mon, 19 Jul 2021 07:50:26 GMT. Happening of about 1/4 to 1/3 of articles. Some are taking several attempts before they are accepted. Mjroots (talk) 07:52, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Red link on preview
Steps to reproduce: Johnuniq (talk) 07:36, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) View MediaWiki talk:Blockedtext.
 * 2) Observe that it has four blue links to Module:IPAddress.
 * 3) Edit Module:IPAddress but don't change anything.
 * 4) Paste  under Preview page with this template.
 * 5) Click Show preview and scroll down to "Not detecting IPs properly".
 * 6) Observe that the four links to Module:IPAddress are now red.
 * 7) Type explanation below!


 * A bug report with clear instructions to reproduce the bug. Every debugger's dream. <b style="color:SteelBlue">HighInBC</b> Need help? Just ask. 07:39, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I repeated the above experiment editing other modules such as Module:Navbar—the links are blue on preview. Then I copied the section to User:Johnuniq/sandbox2 and did the experiment using  as the preview page—the links are red. Then I removed stuff from the sandbox to leave only what is required to trigger the issue so it's much simpler. Feel free to edit the sandbox. Johnuniq (talk) 10:00, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I thought I had previously found that the directional markers were needed to trigger the bug but they are not. I have now edited User:Johnuniq/sandbox2 so it shows a link to Module:String and invokes that module. Previewing an edit to the module shows a red link. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed this a couple of days ago.
 * look at Template:EB1911/testcases. The links to  and  are blue (as they are here)
 * edit but do not change
 * paste  into 'Preview page with this template'
 * click Show preview (the one next to the 'Preview page with this template' box)
 * The links in the rendered testcases page are redlinks
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-29
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * The tool to find, add and remove templates was updated. This is to make it easier to find and use the right templates. It was supposed to come to the first wikis on 7 July. It was delayed to 12 July instead. It will come to more wikis later this year.
 * Special:UnconnectedPages lists pages that are not connected to Wikidata. This helps you find pages that can be connected to Wikidata items. Some pages should not be connected to Wikidata. You can use the magic word  on pages that should not be listed on the special page.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * Octicons-tools.svg How media is structured in the parser's HTML output will soon change. This can affect bots, gadgets, user scripts and extensions. You can read more. You can test it on Testwiki or Testwiki 2.
 * Octicons-tools.svg The parameters for how you obtain tokens in the MediaWiki API were changed in 2014. The old way will no longer work from 1 September. Scripts, bots and tools that use the parameters from before the 2014 change need to be updated. You can read more.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

15:29, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Revision history bug
I will move this to WT:US if required. Uncaught TypeError: Cannot set property 'outerHTML' of undefined at Object. ( :124:70)   at fire (load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery%2Coojs-ui-core%2Coojs-ui-widgets|jquery.ui&skin=vector&version=18fma:46) at Object.fireWith [as resolveWith] (load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery%2Coojs-ui-core%2Coojs-ui-widgets|jquery.ui&skin=vector&version=18fma:48) at done (load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery%2Coojs-ui-core%2Coojs-ui-widgets|jquery.ui&skin=vector&version=18fma:130) at XMLHttpRequest. (load.php?lang=en&modules=jquery%2Coojs-ui-core%2Coojs-ui-widgets|jquery.ui&skin=vector&version=18fma:134) Seems to be preventing me seeing certain scripts on Special:History pages &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  16:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Marker on chart or map in lighthouse infobox.
The infobox in Elbow Cay Lighthouse has the location marker when previewed during editing. In ordinary view of the page, the marker is absent. Observed here at least. Does this depend upon screen size? A bug? Ideas? Thx, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I see the marker in ordinary view now. I think this is just a caching issue. Anytime a map looks correct only when previewing, (which I have seen multiple times), the article is also fine eventually. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 04:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough but my current display still lacks the marker. Partial screenshot here. http://easthope.ca/ElbowCayLighthouse2021-07-18.08-44-00.png Anyone else not getting the marker? Thx, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 15:52, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Showing fine for me. Have you tried purging the cache? Mjroots (talk) 07:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The marker shows up for me, so I agree the most likely cause here is caching. If you're using Chrome, an easy way to test this is to view the page in an incognito window, which will bypass the browser cache. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Firefox here. Doesn't reload fetch a fresh copy of the page and render it? In any case, the marker is present now. Thx, ... PeterEasthope (talk) 03:24, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia blocked my device from editing even though I was on a non-blocked IP (restarting the device fixed it but I want to know if it was a bug)

 * Device - HP Pavilion (Windows 10 Version 2004 Build 19041.1110)
 * Browser - Microsoft Edge Version 91.0.864.70 (64-bit) (InPrivate Mode)
 * What I tried - reloading (no effect), reopening Edge with InPrivate Mode (no effect), restarting (worked but took too much time)
 * When it happened - after I temporarily switched to mobile data (via tethering due to power outage), then tried editing (the mobile data IP was range-blocked if I understand correctly). When I switched back to regular wifi I was still blocked but restaring fixed it (I'm still on the unblocked IP which I was using when Wikipedia "blocked" me). Was this a bug? 45.251.33.74 (talk) 06:38, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What was the message that you saw? Ruslik_ Zero 07:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't remember the exact words but it said that users on the mobile data IP range were blocked till January 2022 for block evasion. I don't remember what IP range it was, unfortunately. 45.251.33.74 (talk) 08:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This sounds normal, as a Autoblock. — xaosflux  Talk 10:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, so it wasn't a bug and somehow Edge didn't remove the cookies before I restarted the browser. Thanks! 45.251.33.26 (talk) 10:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC) PS - if anyone is wondering why my IP is different, I had another power outage. 45.251.33.26 (talk) 10:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Interwiki links
Over the last few days, I've noticed that Interwiki links have stopped appearing in some languages; certainly French, and possibly others.

For an example, see Jacques Behnan Hindo. That article, de:Jacques Behnan Hindo, pl:Jacques Behnan Hindo and Q1677891 show the four articles in that family. The fourth one, fr:Jacques Behnan Hindo, shows no Interwiki links; though it does link to Wikidata.

For a higher profile example, see fr:France. Narky Blert (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this sounds like Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_190 - frwiki has the 'new vector' that moves where these appear in the interface. — xaosflux  Talk 14:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh I see - top right, where I'd expect the coordinates to be, broken down into 8 non-alphabetic sections for added inconvenience. Thanks! Narky Blert (talk) 15:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * you can leave feedback on that here: mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements. — xaosflux  Talk 15:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've merely skimmed that thread so far, but have a sense of dejà vu. "We're going to make these changes, and you WILL love them."
 * On another site, after several months during which us sysops exploited all the unplugged loopholes we could find (including a Firefox add-on that made it look as if you were using IE2, and finding their load balancing server) while the "improvements" were rolled out, they finally made the site impossible to monitor for our main concerns - malware, commercial spam, copyvios, pornographers and underagers, with trolls for relish. The 40-some of us all gave up, and left them to their own devices. Strangely, that site fell off Quantcast, and was closed down completely a couple of months ago (which was 2 or 3 years later than I'd predicted).
 * I may post in that thread, though I have the feeling that it'll have about as much effect as whistling (or making a different sort of noise) in a thunderstorm. Narky Blert (talk) 16:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * [[File:Sketch_of_emphasized_language_switching_options_on_a_scrolled_page_for_Desktop_improvement_project.png|thumb|How the buttons to preferred languages could look like with the sticky header enabled]]
 * [[File:Desktop_Improvements_Report_2.pdf|thumb|"The readers (20/24) were frustrated with scrolling to the bottom of the page to find the list of languages and wanted the feature to be visible.
 * [[File:Desktop_Improvements_Report_2.pdf|thumb|"The readers (20/24) were frustrated with scrolling to the bottom of the page to find the list of languages and wanted the feature to be visible.

The readers (6/24) had also seen/used the option of reading the content in other languages on other websites such as Quora, Rekhta, government websites etc. located on the top of the website and expected the same as it is easily accessible/ discoverable on those websites." (Slide 42 and the following slides)]]
 * Hello! Wikipedia in French is the largest "early adopter" of Desktop Improvements. Indeed, we have recently deployed a new change.
 * You can read more about the language button on MediaWiki.org. In a nutshell: based on three different tests with various groups of readers and editors (first, second, third), we have decided to create a button with a list of interlanguage links, and put it right there. Yes, the challenging part is that this change is against the muscle memory of experienced editors (me included, and I was a n00b 11 years ago). However, the tests have proven that readers are more likely to spot the interlanguage links and switch between the language versions, and that most random editors appreciate that change.
 * (Interesting fact: some readers have been frustrated by looking for the traditional interwiki list - because one needs to scroll in order to get to those, because they generally ignore the sidebar, etc. As a result, they would go to Google and type, say, "Super Bowl Spanish Wikipedia", rather than go straight to interwiki.)
 * Also, the interlanguage links list will soon be improved. Just look at this Phabricator ticket and these slides. The Language team is building this.
 * Currently, we're running A/B tests on all early adopter wikis. A half of logged-in users can see the traditional list in the sidebar, and a half can see the button. Next week (I think) we'll know the usage statistics. We'll also compare before & after for logged-out. We hope that using interlanguage links will be way, way easier after we've built the sticky header and added buttons to preferred languages next to the existing button with the full list.
 * Also next week here on English WP Village Pump I'll post an update about the state of the project. Finally, I hope our Wikimania submission will be accepted, and if that works out, then you will be able to talk to us.
 * I encourage you all to take a look at our documentation. In particular, the main page of the project, and the FAQ. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Isn't the button confusing? Saying "read in English" sets an expectation that the reader is going to get a translation of the page they are viewing when actually they are going to be redirected. "Read the English Wikipedia article on this topic" is more accurate. Nthep (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point. Sadly, "Read the English Wikipedia article on this topic" is three times longer. This may work for a small pop out, but not a button. The real problem in the background is way more difficult to solve, though. Readers don't know that each wiki is a universe of its own, with its own community, culture, schools of thought, etc. They don't interpret the phrase "the English Wikipedia article on this topic" as we do. On the other hand, another Wikimedia wiki is still a member of one family. It's better to encourage readers to stay in the family rather than to let them jump to an entirely different website. So finally, when the Web team was establishing the scope of the Desktop Improvements project, we decided to take care of issues we can solve. It's the only way to eat an elephant. This is why we think that a not ideal button is better than a way less useful list. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 12:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I accept the point, coming up with something snappy is not easy, I realised that as I was typing my comment. The risk for reader satisfaction is that they are taken from an extensive article in one language to something that is little more than a stub in the preferred language and think "huh, what happened there? Is there some sort of error?" Nthep (talk) 13:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You're right @Nthep, I admitted that (problem you're pointing out) by calling it an elephant. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "However, the tests have proven that readers are more likely to spot the interlanguage links and switch between the language versions, and that most random editors appreciate that change." Really? ko:샘 해밍턴 (I can't copy the relevant bit of Hangul, which I don't read). I wasted several minutes composing an ill} link before discovering there was a parallel English article - fortunately with the same name as the one I had chosen. I could have picked Sam (entertainer); which would have helped no-one, and might have led to someone writing a duplicate article. Narky Blert (talk) 08:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Narky Blert, I'm sorry to hear that it took you several minutes. Do you have the Desktop Improvements enabled? Were you editing while trying to look for interwiki? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 08:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * An everyday piece of DABfixing. An English article about a Korean TV show linked to Sam. I went straight to the Korean equivalent, used Google Translate to find the matching text, and found the relevant Korean bluelink and article from that. Korean and Japanese (and to a lesser extent Chinese) in particular are languages where it's common for there to be no corresponding articles elsewhere, and I've learned not to waste time looking for cases where there might be duplicate Wikidata entries (which are pretty common). Narky Blert (talk) 09:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Isn't the button confusing? Saying "read in English" sets an expectation that the reader is going to get a translation of the page they are viewing when actually they are going to be redirected. "Read the English Wikipedia article on this topic" is more accurate. Nthep (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point. Sadly, "Read the English Wikipedia article on this topic" is three times longer. This may work for a small pop out, but not a button. The real problem in the background is way more difficult to solve, though. Readers don't know that each wiki is a universe of its own, with its own community, culture, schools of thought, etc. They don't interpret the phrase "the English Wikipedia article on this topic" as we do. On the other hand, another Wikimedia wiki is still a member of one family. It's better to encourage readers to stay in the family rather than to let them jump to an entirely different website. So finally, when the Web team was establishing the scope of the Desktop Improvements project, we decided to take care of issues we can solve. It's the only way to eat an elephant. This is why we think that a not ideal button is better than a way less useful list. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 12:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I accept the point, coming up with something snappy is not easy, I realised that as I was typing my comment. The risk for reader satisfaction is that they are taken from an extensive article in one language to something that is little more than a stub in the preferred language and think "huh, what happened there? Is there some sort of error?" Nthep (talk) 13:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You're right @Nthep, I admitted that (problem you're pointing out) by calling it an elephant. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "However, the tests have proven that readers are more likely to spot the interlanguage links and switch between the language versions, and that most random editors appreciate that change." Really? ko:샘 해밍턴 (I can't copy the relevant bit of Hangul, which I don't read). I wasted several minutes composing an ill} link before discovering there was a parallel English article - fortunately with the same name as the one I had chosen. I could have picked Sam (entertainer); which would have helped no-one, and might have led to someone writing a duplicate article. Narky Blert (talk) 08:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Narky Blert, I'm sorry to hear that it took you several minutes. Do you have the Desktop Improvements enabled? Were you editing while trying to look for interwiki? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 08:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * An everyday piece of DABfixing. An English article about a Korean TV show linked to Sam. I went straight to the Korean equivalent, used Google Translate to find the matching text, and found the relevant Korean bluelink and article from that. Korean and Japanese (and to a lesser extent Chinese) in particular are languages where it's common for there to be no corresponding articles elsewhere, and I've learned not to waste time looking for cases where there might be duplicate Wikidata entries (which are pretty common). Narky Blert (talk) 09:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

What is the maximum range for Lua's ?
I wanted to get a random unsigned 32-bit integer. However,  gives  error and   gives -476707714 (overflow this early?!) with the default seed. Alexiscoutinho (talk) 20:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 21:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * There was a bug in Lua 5.1, which is what Scribunto uses, where math.random incorrectly used a signed int instead of an unsigned int in one of the behind-the-scenes functions. This was fixed in Lua 5.2, but here on Wikipedia we're stuck with 5.1. If you run your examples at https://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo, which uses Lua 5.4, both your statements correctly evaluate to positive integers. The best workaround would be to just use . --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * You can also try using the number function from Module:Random. isaacl (talk) 22:14, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm curious, : what for? — Guarapiranga ☎ 01:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As a cheap alternative to the inaccessible table/object's id for hashing (when I don't want to hash its content) Alexiscoutinho (talk) 05:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Cheers. — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:11, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Changing link colours on Wikipedia sitewide
MOS:CONTRAST is fairly clear. It states that: "'Articles (and other pages) that use color should keep accessibility in mind, as follows: [...] Some readers of Wikipedia are partially or fully color-blind or visually impaired. Ensure the contrast of the text with its background reaches at least Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.0's AA level, and AAA level when feasible (see WCAG's 'Understanding SC 1.4.3: Contrast (Minimum)'). To use named CSS colors for text on a white background, refer to Manual of Style/Accessibility/CSS colors for text on white for recommended colors.'" However, the default skin does not accomplish this. For context, to meet WCAG 2.0's AAA level, a contrast ratio of 7:1 is required.


 * Red links have a contrast ratio of 6.8:1 against a white background, and 6.5:1 when used against the grey background of a table.
 * Interwiki links have a contrast ratio of 5.6:1 against a white background, and 5.3:1 when used against the grey background of a table.
 * [//en.wikipedia.org External links] share the same, low-contrast colour as interwiki links. The icon next to them is a slightly lighter shade of blue, with a contrast 5.4:1 against a white background, and 5.1:1 when used against the grey background of a table.

First of all, should we address the issue? MOS:CONTRAST says that we should hit the AAA level when feasible. I think that it is feasible - just a small colour tweak is necessary - and given that users interract with these links constantly on Wikipedia, it's worth improving accessibility. Here is my proposal: adjust the shade of the colour in the [//developer.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanalyser/ Colour Contrast Analyser programme] until a contrast ratio of 7:1 is reached.

Is there anything I've overlooked here, or any reason why this couldn't or shouldn't be done in the name of increasing readability for colourblind readers and editors? I understand that it's a subtle change, but a worthwhile one when we consider that an estimated 4.5% of people are colour blind to some extent, and many more would benefit from increased contrast from the default skin. If this is in the wrong section, I apologise. I saw this as more of a technical issue than something for the idea lab, but it seems borderline. Domeditrix (talk) 23:53, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 20:27, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a great idea and I support it whole-heartedly. Jorm (talk) 00:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Two things: since we're talking about accessibility, make sure to consider contrast of links in wikitable as well as wikitable column/row  (I've added scope attributes to the table above); and because we're talking about Internet/WWW/browser behavior, don't forget about visited/unvisited differences. Obviously, there's no problems with visited non-existent links, but some users might expect a purple (rather than a blue) for the links they've visited. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 00:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe I just read the wrong articles, but I don't really recall seeing links in wikitable cells, which is why I didn't test against the darker grey colour. As for visited vs unvisited, the visited colour for external and interwiki links passes the contrast test, while red links and the external link icon do not appear to change colour after being clicked. The colours I've proposed changing are the problematic ones within articles. There are further issues in (for example) the watchlist, but I wanted to keep this narrow. If we do consider wikitable cells, red links would need to change to a darker red (to  example ), interwiki and external links would need to change to a darker blue (to  example ), as would the external link icon (to  example ). One potential pitfall of this is that these would become virtually indistinguishable from unvisited links within Wikipedia ( example ). I can envisage this causing further issues - changing the colour of unclicked blue links to a slightly darker blue may cause a fight the likes of which we've never seen. Domeditrix (talk) 01:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * List articles can often links in tables. For an example see: List of Netflix original programming. Terasail [✉️] 01:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is something we should hack in "sitewide" on the English Wikipedia, if the colors are an issue they should be changed at least on the entire skin upstream by requesting a software change. — xaosflux  Talk 02:03, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * T213778 is relevant. Izno (talk) 04:47, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! contributing suggestions at that task would be welcome. —  xaosflux  Talk 09:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no objections to the new red link color, but if we're going to change the interwiki and external link colors, we should either make them identical to normal wikilinks, or actually make them different enough that you can tell them apart. I personally use my custom CSS to change the interwiki links to (unvisited) and  (visited) so I can tell them apart from normal wikilinks. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * I use User:Anomie/linkclassifier. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  06:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Partial blocks
Not sure if this or the Help desk is the best place to ask this question. An IP range is partially blocked. It expires in February. A single IP that is part of the range is sitewide-blocked. It expires in January. When the single IP's block expires, does the partial block remain in effect and include the single IP?--Bbb23 (talk) 18:56, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You'd be a great witness in a courtroom. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Filmreference .com clean-up Bot
Filmreference .com references occur 2,566 times, yet it is blacklisted. .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 05:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want to request a bot task please post at WP:BOTREQ. — xaosflux  Talk 10:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

citoid seens broken
web citation (reftoolbar) does not autofill. but wiki-mark-up coloring does work .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 06:25, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Please provide clear and exact steps and settings to reproduce how to see something somewhere in some web browser on some page. Thanks! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 10:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx Citoid can't expand PDFs' URLs, which may be the problem. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  10:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

glitchy What links here?
Today might be my first time trying the "What links here" Tool. i happened to visit Special:WhatLinksHere/Miracle Workers (2019 TV series). i only tried 2 of the links there, but neither the 3rd (Battle of the Planets) nor the 7th (Captain Planet and the Planeteers) seems to link to Miracle Workers (2019 TV series). (i opened each of those links and did a CTRL+F search for "Miracle" returning 0 results. i also did the search while "editing" each of those pages, in case a pipelink was involved.) i suspect many more of these links do not, should not, and probably never did link to Miracle Workers (2019 TV series), so why are they on the list of "What links here"?

p.s.: Below, i copy-paste what that page shows me (edited for clarity/brevity):

The following pages link to Miracle Workers (2019 TV series)

Displayed 50 items.


 * Margaret Cho
 * Lorne Michaels
 * Battle of the Planets
 * Daniel Radcliffe
 * Steve Buscemi
 * 2 Stupid Dogs
 * Captain Planet and the Planeteers
 * Oregon Trail (disambiguation)
 * Broadway Video
 * The Chimp Channel
 * Italia 1
 * Tim Meadows
 * Cartoon Planet
 * John Reynolds (actor)
 * Peter Serafinowicz
 * American Dad!
 * The Joker's Wild
 * Moon Shot
 * He's a Lady
 * Conan (talk show)
 * Chris Parnell
 * WCW Thunder
 * Clash of the Champions
 * The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest
 * Down to Earth (American TV series)
 * Minding the Store
 * Dinner and a Movie
 * Starcade
 * Georgia Championship Wrestling
 * Outback Jack
 * Jorma Taccone
 * Daisy Does America
 * List of American television programs by debut date
 * WCW Saturday Night
 * The New Leave It to Beaver
 * Night Tracks
 * Tamra Davis
 * The Real Gilligan's Island
 * Angela Kinsey
 * Braves TBS Baseball
 * G-Force: Guardians of Space
 * The Catlins (TV series)
 * Tyler Perry's House of Payne
 * User:BoogerD
 * WCW Main Event
 * WCW Pro
 * WCW Power Hour
 * Best of World Championship Wrestling
 * Major League Baseball on TBS
 * Midnight Money Madness

--96.244.220.178 (talk) 04:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The link is in the navbox entitled "TBS original programming", at the bottom of most of those articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * User:PrimeHunter/Source links.js gives a way to avoid the navbox entries: Source links. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Installed and proving very useful. Thank you.--Verbarson (talk) 11:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Special:RemoveCredentials
May I ask precisely what data is removed by use of the Special:RemoveCredentials page? Sounds dangerous... :-) Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 17:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC).
 * You will get a list of what you could remove. AFAIK this is very limited, and the only time you might functionally make use of it would be if you used the "forgotten password" feature, then didn't reset your password and then resumed a logged-in session. Then, before the temporary password expired, you could use this function to void the temporary password.  It has no impact on your normal logon, and doesn't reveal anything about the temporary password. —  xaosflux  Talk 18:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Can section transclusion be made to work with old version permalinks?
E.g.: — Guarapiranga ☎ 10:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC) AFAIK, MW's engine already does that, @Isaacl. Just check that old revisions aren't garbled by later template changes. — Guarapiranga ☎ 11:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No. All transclusion methods only work on the current version. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We're going to have to discuss the merits of mirroring stuff from one page to another, as I have grumpily hinted at Module talk:Transcluder which implements Excerpt. I started on that when noticing Electoral results for the district of Parramatta which uses Excerpt 65 times, and which consequently breaks the article. Johnuniq (talk) 11:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Isn't the whole point of transcluding instead of copying that you benefit from changes to the transcluded page? —Kusma (talk) 12:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this would be a shortcut to copying, especially for discussion in talk pages, as the linkage to the version in question would be made more explicit. But, yeah, there are other ways of getting the same result. OTOH, why not? — Guarapiranga ☎ 12:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , with regard to "why not", I think "because it would be immensely complex and a large amount of development work for scant benefit" unfortunately. firefly  ( t · c ) 12:51, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, unfortunately. — Guarapiranga ☎ 01:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Having said that, I'm curious, ... How's transcluding an old revision any more complex than transcluding a live revision? — Guarapiranga ☎ 01:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * T31051 from 2014 is still open for this type of functionality to be developed. — xaosflux  Talk 18:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . The use case there in that phab is also interesting; I hadn't thought of that. And you're right: it'd be the same logic. I can't imagine why it'd be any harder to address pages in transclusion by their permalinks rather than their logical addresses. I can only imagine it's deliberate to preclude ill intended editors from transcluding reverted or superseded content onto current versions. OTOH, that doesn't seem in line with the general spirit of WP of giving editors carte blanche—literally!—and letting content be guided by policy rather than technical constraints. — Guarapiranga ☎ 21:33, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * To transclude a page that made use of no templates or other transcluded content, identifying a specific page version to transclude is straightforward. However if the page being transcluded in turn transcludes other content, then you need to figure out what version of each transitively transcluded page should be used. From a user perspective, I imagine the simplest approach would be to specify a given date/timestamp. From what I understand of Wikipedia's current underlying database format, though, this would be a time-consuming operation. Of course anything can be done if it really needs to be, but there's an opportunity cost, and so whether or not this feature has higher priority over other tasks has to be evaluated. isaacl (talk) 22:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Identifying old versions of a template is especially challenging when the template has been deleted. Certes (talk) 00:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * However if the page being transcluded in turn transcludes other content, then you need to figure out what version of each transitively transcluded page should be used.
 * I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "just check that old revisions aren't garbled by later template changes". Later than when? That is the exact functionality that I said needs to be implemented. Currently, it always uses the current version of transcluded pages, no matter which version you are looking at. isaacl (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should get a way to display reverted vandalism, copyvios, BLP violations, and so on in live wiki pages. Old revisions are not indexed by search engines and rarely viewed by readers so bad content doesn't matter much there. Enabling it would also give problems for some reusers. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If we could do that (provide a date and have the software look at all templates as of that date), we could have real permalinks (by which I mean permanent links to the rendered page, not permanent links to some wikitext that may turn out to have a completely different interpretation later), which would be super useful in general, especially for people trying to cite a specific version of a Wikipedia article (currently, thanks to things like Template:Latest stable software release/Linux, several years old versions of Linux kernel will tell you it was most recently updated in July 2021). Of course you immediately run into nightmares of deleted revisions of the templates or images used (gets more fun if you consider page moves), not to mention tracking what happened to the relevant Wikidata items. Best not to use transclusion for anything you want to be readable in the future, I guess. —Kusma (talk) 12:11, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Ban ProveIt
ProveIt doesn't follow style retention, and just like Visual Editor, is a clusterfuck. Stop pushing this, they're garbage. This is a case of WP:STYLERET amongst others. They need to go. I will follow this and revert every single edit made by it. Dumbasses follow, learn basic coding. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 21:49, 20 July 2021 (UTC)


 * for those of us unfamiliar with the Provelt tool, and who don't understand significance of the diff you linked, can you please go into a little detail? Thanks. — Maile  (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Compare the wikitext of the two pages - the original page had cite web templates where each parameter was spaced onto it's own row, in the post proveit edit the citation templates have been automatically altered so all the parameters are on the same line. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 22:13, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Citation format" in respect to the lines typed into wikitext is not protected by our various *VARs, and particularly not CITEVAR, which is the controlling guideline on the point (see this RFC). Seeing as Walter is fundamentally improving the citation content, do not revert him again. Thanks. Izno (talk) 00:00, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And please don't refer to well-meaning contributors as dumbasses, either. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  00:55, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no. While I'll agree it's well meaning, it's detrimental. Learn basic coding. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 03:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * While MA used the word "please", 'yeah, no' is a good reason to say "yeah, no". Do not refer to well-meaning contributors as dumbasses. Period and end of story. Izno (talk) 03:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Floydian is complaining because the tool minimizes a reference like this to. The style did not change one iota. WP:CITESTYLE lists several different style, and both styles—the expanded form Floydian likes and the compacted form that ProveIt minimizes to—are Citation style. The tool does not change to APA style, ASA style, MLA style, The Chicago Manual of Style, Author-date referencing, the Vancouver system or Bluebook. I tried to explain that on the article's talk page, but I was threatened to be taken to ANI if I "changed the style again". I suspect it was because I mentioned the editor's personal attacks toward me (talk about the content, not the contributor), and their use profanity on my talk page might merit a trip there if the poor behaviour continued. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:06, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I love ProveIt, it's my favourite citation gadget. No need to start calling people dumbasses because it changed the code style (which is not cosmetic, so no actual reason to revert) — Berrely  • Talk∕Contribs 18:23, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I like it too (though I'd wish it used mnemonic ref names when normalising everything). I also use the Expand citations gadget, 's Expand References script, WMFLabs' ReFill² and Fix dead links ones. What do you use? (and, yeah, Floydian's trash talk was really uncalled for) — Guarapiranga ☎ 21:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I have apologised to Walter Görlitz as it really was uncalled for language; bad day is all I can chalk it to. However, I do still feel that changing an article from vertical citations to horizontal citations is something that falls under a "style change"; regardless, this is an issue that can be dealt with on the talk page of the article, so please disregard my rude posts. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 22:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We all have bad days and I bear no hard feelings. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Can't find script
Hi, I'm loading User:TheDJ/mobileVector.css, but I'm not sure how (it's not in my global, common or skin .css or .js pages), and it still loads in safemode. This is not a really a problem, but I was confused about how it's loading. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  18:57, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No idea why but you added this to your User:Qwerfjkl/common.js file. Qwerfjkl, you are really starting to take up a lot of time at VPT with your own personal scripts - we try to attend to this page frequently to help everyone - but if you want to do all of these custom experiments you really need to learn to start being able to debug them yourself. I suggest you read everything on User scripts/Guide, including the section on debuggers. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I disabled the line in my common.js. I have posted a few problems that are low-priority, and have been bugging me for a while. I probably (hopefully) won't post a large number of questions in the future, and will try to post script-related problems at Wikipedia talk:User scripts, so as not to clog up this page. Thank you for your time. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  21:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It is also uncommented in common.js on your alt account, but in safemode it shouldn't load (unless safemode doesn't affect the css?). MarMi wiki (talk) 20:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging @Xaosflux &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  15:22, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this still happening? — xaosflux  Talk 21:40, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux Yes. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  06:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What makes you think it's loading? safemode means a url like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example?safemode=1. Is it really loading there? PrimeHunter (talk) 09:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter Yes, it's loading there. Sorry for the late reply. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  14:03, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Did you do anything to your browser, like try to load scripts directly from your browser? —  xaosflux  Talk 10:12, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux I am (almost) certain that I haven't done this. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  14:05, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging @PrimeHunter @Xaosflux &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  06:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What makes you think this is loading? — xaosflux  Talk 09:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux It changes the appearance of pages. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  09:54, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, but lots of things do. Do you have something specifically showing this exact script is loading in your debug?  Have you tried the standard method of : unlink ALL of your userscripts and and them back one by one? —  xaosflux  Talk 10:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux The main change is the addition of this: I'm not sure this actually is User:TheDJ/mobileVector.css &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  14:47, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The <label ></label> element is normally used in a form, it allows a control (element within that form that interacts with the user, such as input, button, select, etc.) to be given a descriptive label. The control needs to have an  attribute that has the same value as the   attribute of the label element; this id/for pair creates an association between the control and its label. So in the above example of a <label ></label> element, there is the attribute   and somewhere in the enclosing <form ></form> element, there will be another element that has the attribute  . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you're not sure what's going on, it might be a good idea to read mw:Help:Locating broken scripts. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * None of that code is in User:TheDJ/mobileVector.css so I don't know why you think it's loading. The code is part of mw:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Features/Collapsible sidebar. It appears if you use the Vector skin and disable "Use Legacy Vector" at Special:Preferences. I asked "What makes you think it's loading?" 13 July. It took you five posts and ten days to give a meaningful reply. If you seek help then please answer questions from the people trying to help you. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Missing "2021 Olympics" redirects
Is there any reasonably easy way to get a full list of all articles and redirects about the current Olympics and the subsequent Paralympics containing the number 2020 (anything containing "2020 Olympics", "2020 Summer Olympics", "2020 Paralympics", "2020 Summer Paralympics" or "Tokyo 2020"; all regardless of capitalization) with no corresponding 2021 redirect? Animal lover 666 (talk) 17:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * query/57098 for non-redirs, and query/57100 for redirs. —Cryptic 18:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

tel URI
A recent IP edit (diff) made a good change but also changed " " to " ". The tel URI displays as [tel:2100–2000 2100–2000] which is intended to dial a phone number. I assume there is a broken browser extension which "fixes" text like this and I'm posting in case others notice the problem. I'm also hoping someone here would search articles to see if there are other instances. Johnuniq (talk) 03:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This looks like a six-year-old bug, but it may be happening with greater frequency recently. I checked a few edits, and they are all tagged "Mobile edit Mobile web edit Visual edit". A crude search finds 300+ articles with this error. I don't know anything about edit filters, but this may be a good use of one. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * All external links to tel:, for reference. Plenty of other errors in there screaming for helpful gnomery, especially things like [tel:(123) 456-7890] . —Cryptic 06:00, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I requested an edit filter to try and tag these, for fixing and also to get an idea of the scale of the problem and whether further technical action is necessary. the wub "?!"  11:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * says that this problem has been fixed in the new version of MW, to be deployed on 29 July 2021. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Redesigning the mobile sidebar
I would like to suggest redesigning the mobile sidebar which is short on helpful links. Because this is a technical matter, I would like to know who to contact on suggesting this. If you could help me out with this, that would be great. I'm having trouble with WP:PHAB which was suggested by another editor. Interstellarity (talk) 12:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You have to be more specific about what problem you're having and what you wish to be accomplished, or you're unlikely to get the help you need here. Nardog (talk) 14:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * To be more clear, I would like to add more links to the mobile sidebar like a help link and a contact us link to help users better navigate the site. I’m asking where I should go in order to make this happen. Interstellarity (talk) 14:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * What trouble are you having with WP:PHAB? Nardog (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Step 1 is probably getting local consensus, someone else (such as myself) can deal with the implementation if consensus is reached. --Trialpears (talk) 15:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I tried getting a consensus on pages such as WP:VPPR and RFCs, but not many people commented on them. What I could do is list the discussion on VPPR, make it a RFC, and add a link to the centralized discussion page to attact more people to it. I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it. Could you tell me what I should do in this kind of situation? Interstellarity (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you link the discussion? I don't recall seeing a VPPR thread about it and couldn't find one with a quick search either. --Trialpears (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, here it is: Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_176. Interstellarity (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hm, that isn't much discussion and I doubt interface changes would be made based of that. Based on mw:Skin:Minerva_Neue it also seems to be significantly more difficult to implement then I thought. --Trialpears (talk) 21:45, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't believe there's an interface message like there is for desktop, but you can use mw.util.addPortletLink in MediaWiki:Minerva.js. Because it's JavaScript, there is a slight delay, but the mobile sidebar is collapsed on page load so the links should populate before the user is able to reveal the sidebar. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  15:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Page moves and Good Article reviews
All Good article reviews take place at the subpage Talk:PAGENAME/GAX. This link is found automatically in areas such as Template:GA. However, if an article and its talkpage are moved, Good article reviews are not moved with them, leaving them harder to find and breaking the template. I think that talkpage archives currently move with talk pages. Would there be a way to have GA subpages also move automatically during page moves? Thanks, CMD (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You need to either have WP:Page mover rights or be an administrator. If you have either of those when you go to move a page there will be a checkbox labeled "Move all subpages, if applicable" which allows you to automatically move things like talk page archives and good article nominations. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 17:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Talkpage archives and other subpages are treated the same by the software but there may be more movers who forget to move other subpages. Moving a page says to check for subpages. Maybe we should add it to MediaWiki:Movepagetext-noredirectfixer which is displayed on the move form. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * can you provide an example of where archive subpages but not gax pages were moved recently? — xaosflux  Talk 00:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Not off hand, perhaps 192 and Primehunter correctly identify the issue as the subpage box not being available/checked. Is there a particular reason subpage moving is locked behind an additional move right? It seems like it should be the default action. CMD (talk) 01:12, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It was originally implemented as vandalism control. It used to be the case that when you moved a page with a load of subpages each of the subpages would leave a redirect behind, but if you tried to move the page back to it's original title the software couldn't automatically move the subpages over the redirects, so you had to manually go through and delete all of the redirects one at a time first. One of the ways JarlaxleArtemis/Gawp used to cause a ton of damage was by moving pages with loads of subpaages to inappropriate titles, in a few minutes they could cause damage that would take literally hours to clean up. I don't know if the more modern versions of mediawiki are smarter and can move subpages over single revision redirects, but that's the reason it was originally restricted. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 01:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's an unfortunate history. I suppose the next question is if there is a way to identify unmoved subpages, such as a tracking category for subpages of redirects. CMD (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be worth asking the people who run the community tech bot to put together another database report? "Subpages of redirects with non-redirect content"? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 15:18, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That does sound like a good idea. I raised this issue here on the technical page looking for that sort of engagement, I'm unfamiliar on what further steps I'd need to take. CMD (talk) 05:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You can make a request at Wikipedia talk:Database reports. Legoktm (talk) 20:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The list of failed Good Article redirects can be found here --Whiteguru (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing an example or this condition - for example Italian_battleship_Caio_Duilio is on that page, but Special:PrefixIndex/Talk:Italian_battleship_Caio_Duilio shows that all subpages are redirects, and that there are no archive talk pages. Can you point to an example of what User:Chipmunkdavis is describing, because I haven't seen a tech issue yet. —  xaosflux  Talk 10:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Of the 13 redirect listed currently following page moves, only 5 had their GA pages moved with the article. A couple were move reversions so ended up with the appropriate name, so that leaves about half with the subpages not moved and links breaking if Template:GA is used. (Template:Article history requires a written link and is thus not affected by page moves.) CMD (talk) 07:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a specific example, preferably of one "broken" now? Trying to determine if there is a tech issue, or if this is just human error. — xaosflux  Talk 20:46, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Talk:Cool Me Down (Margaret song) provides an example of what I mean. The page and talk page were moved, but the GA subpage was not. If it helps as a potential comparison, there's also Talk:2015 Wootton Bassett rail incident, where the subpage appears to have moved one minute after the talkpage. (I don't know if that indicates it was manual or a delay on the software.) CMD (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this isn't an example of a talk page that was moved, with its archives, but not with a GA archive. This just looks like a page that was moved (in this case by ) where the mover simply didn't also move the subpages at all. Basically, there is nothing special about the */GA page and this would have been the same condition for any other talk subpage. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

For example I went to a random GA and clicked move (Special:MovePage/Codex_Alexandrinus) the move page has a list of the talk subpages - but the directions may not be as clear about making sure the mover deals with them. The message directions for this are located here: MediaWiki:Movepagetext-noredirectfixer, and can be updated. Feel free to suggest improvements and open an edit request at MediaWiki talk:Movepagetext-noredirectfixer. — xaosflux  Talk 14:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe that's what 192 was getting at, which led to my second question about identifying unmoved subpages. Presumably that would apply to archives as well? The instructions don't seem to mention moving subpages at all. I myself was unaware page movers needed to move subpages until this point. CMD (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Reflinks down again
Hi all. Reflinks are down again with what looks like a similar issue to last time. Can someone fix this please?  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 15:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * our editors and admins can't fix this external site, you can try asking over at User talk:Dispenser/Reflinks. — xaosflux  Talk 19:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's been done before.  The C of E God Save the Queen!  ( talk ) 19:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-30
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * A new version of MediaWiki came to the Wikimedia wikis the week before last week. This was not in Tech News because there was no newsletter that week.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * If you use the Monobook skin you can choose to switch off responsive design on mobile. This will now work for more skins. If  is unticked you need to also untick the new preference  . Otherwise it will stop working. Interface admins can automate this process on your wiki. You can read more.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

21:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there a way to include "flex box" for Template:Cast listing?
Hello. My question is regarding Template:Cast listing. There are certain pages where where you have the cast list side by side with a multiple image template box. However, when you decrease the size of your browser, the image box size remains the same, but the cast listing section gets smaller. Eventually, it is just squeezed to a very small portion of the browser screen and is virtually unreadable. Look at the "Cast" sections for Interstellar (film) and El Camino: A Breaking Bad Movie as examples. Decrease your browser horizontally on a smaller laptop to replicate the problem I am talking about.

These sections are fine on mobile, the cast listing seems to be "flexed" below the multiple image box. Is there a way to fix these on the browsers? — Flowerkiller1692 (talk) 22:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:RFPP: Weirdness with the "appears to be already protected" tag
Ever since the new system went in, the bot has been doing weird things with the "appears to be already protected, please confirm" response. Here's what happens: I protect an article and post the usual notice saying so on the RFPP page. And 2 or 5 or 10 minutes later, the bot posts the "appears to be already protected" notice right under the "semi-protected" notice. At first I replied to it with the "already protected by" template; more recently I have been striking through it; but now I see that the item gets archived even if no one responds. You can see multiple examples here. I guess this is kind of a non-problem, but it can be confusing nevertheless. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:RFPP: “previously requested and declined” message no longer appears
Something has gone missing at “requests for increased protection”: there is no longer a tag letting us know that there was a declined request for protection in the past 10 days. That was valuable information. Now we have to either go searching in the archives on a hunch, or else assume there have not been any previous requests. There is nothing to stop an editor from re-requesting protection over and over after it has been declined. Example: Pongal (festival) was re-requested for protection on 10:10 July 26, after it had been declined on July 24 and there had been only one problem edit since the previous request. (It was eventually declined again.) Maybe this is no longer possible now that we no longer have a “rolling archive” right there on the page, but it was a valuable tool. I actually have seen the “previously requested” message at Requests for Reduction, but I haven’t seen it at Requests for Increase. Any way to reinstate it? -- MelanieN (talk) 16:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Frankly I think we should leave the over-worked bot operator alone. Burning him out would be a bad idea. I haven't been to RFPP much lately and haven't noticed this issue but if it's not just a temporary glitch it would be a downgrade. If I may rant a little, this is what happens when people get a great idea (with unclear benefit) that someone else has to implement. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:RFPP: “protected by administrator Template:No ping.”
This is the first of several posts I am going to make about glitches with the new RFPP system. I apologize for pinging you because I know you have had a lot of hassle over glitches with the new system, without much recognition or appreciation for all your work to get it set up. I realize some of these things have nothing to do with you, but I thought you deserved the courtesy of notification - and maybe you will know who else should be notified about an individual glitch. In this case, the template seems to have gone bad. When we replace "Example" with the name of the protecting administrator, that name does not show up. Instead, the response is shown as "Already protected by administrator Template:No ping." You can see several examples here. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2021 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 18:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 02:46, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This isn't a bug with the bot per se, this is occurring because the archive pages are too big and are running into the template limit. From the limit report: . The solution here is to either substitute the templates (which I don't think would work with the no ping template, it would just end up pinging everyone) or split the archives into smaller chunks (weekly?). 192.76.8.91 (talk) 17:11, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Having said that the issue here is almost certainly the hundreds of transclusions of Template:Pagelinks, each of which creates a couple of rather long URL's, rather than Template:No ping. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not just that it's calling Pagelinks. It's that pagelinks calls page-multi, which then then invokes, which means that the actual links are being triple-counted in the post-expand include size. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * I improved the efficiency of pagelinks so that the current July archive isn't broken, but the post-expand include size is still 1,377,368/2,097,152 bytes, so a modest increase in volume could still break the page. We might want to think about substing pagelinks in the preloaded text going forwards (it would switching to the version of pagelinks at pagelinks/sandbox). --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * Whatever you did, it must have worked. In the link I posted above, showing examples where it said "protected by administrator Template:No ping", those items now show the name of the administrator. Nice work! -- MelanieN (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Looking for a tester with Chrome or Chromium
I'm looking for someone who is already using Chrome on Windows 10 or Chromium on Ubuntu, and who's willing to watch for a "cursor jumping around" kind of bug. If you're interested, please go to Special:Preferences and enable the "Discussion tools" item. It'll give you a [reply] button on talk pages. Ping me if you run into problems with the cursor jumping around. This may be caused by a gadget or plugin. I'm hoping to find someone who encounters a similar problem, so we can find a common thread. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion control bug
I think I've encountered a bug with inclusion control. At my sandbox, I've got the following code:. When I try to transclude that labeled section reference to another page using, it should produce "Reference for transcluded page". However, instead, it produces this:

This only happens when there's a reference involved; taking that element away makes it work properly again. Does anyone know if this is a known issue and if there's any workaround available? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:29, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This is probably another issue with certain operations (like template substitutions) not being evaluated inside ref tags. There's been a bug report open for this for over a decade at this point. Try using the #tag magic word instead.  192.76.8.91 (talk) 18:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Or you could swap the order of the tags so that the ref tags are inside the inclusion control tags.  192.76.8.91 (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That works; much thanks! Hopefully eventually the refs thing will be fixed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Formatting
I realise that this is not necessarily under the purview of this section, but perhaps someone could answer easily? I chanced upon the following formatting: used to produce a space between two consecutive refs, thus:

Why has this been included, and is it correct to use in this instance, according to MOS? You can see the original usage here. The editor concerned is inactive. I've looked at Template:·, but find no clear answer there. Thank you.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)


 * @Rocknrollmancer According to MOS:REFSPACE, there should not be any space between adjacent ref tags, so putting that template between ref tags is not correct usage. It is also not what the template is intended for nor is it standard practice. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 20:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * ThanQ - that's what I expected.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Overflow error

 * upstream connect error or disconnect/reset before headers. reset reason: overflow

For awhile now I was receiving this error (white screen in browser with this text at the top) when trying to view a category or even to sign in. It finally just now allowed me to sign in. And there was significant lag in even trying to view regular pages. Does anyone know what may have been going on? - jc37 11:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Something to do with a database overflow on ruwikinews caused due to a bot — Berrely  • Talk∕Contribs 11:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * See also T262391 firefly  ( t · c ) 11:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * oh ok, thanks for the info. That was really crazy  lol - jc37 11:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Background here: https://ru.wikinews.org/wiki/Викиновости:Форум/Общий/Архив/2020#DynamicPageList.
 * BTW, I know I'm preaching the choir on this page, but remember Don't worry about performance? It has two sides.  One is, don't worry unless the devs tell you to.  The other is, if the devs actually tell you that mass-uploading hundreds of thousands of pages could make the servers fall over, then don't do that. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * See also explanation on Wikinews. By the way, Russian Wikinews hasn't been got any direction for the whole year until last crush. But who cares. DonSimon (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Help
Hi Village pump (technical), A few days ago I had created this user page to use Disam Assist. How can i use this to fix Disambiguation link? Please help me. Thank you ! Fade258 (talk) 06:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Fade258 You should find an option when on (disambiguation) pages. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  09:03, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Messed up interwikis
For Eid al-Ghadir there are several messed up interwikis. E.g. Azerbaijani Wikipedia equivalent Qədir-Xum which is about the same holiday is not linked to Eid al-Ghadir and its interwikis are different from those at Eid al-Ghadir (e.g. Spanish Ghadir al-Jumm linked to Qədir-Xum is not the same thing as Eid al-Ghadir). Could someone sort those irrelevant or possibly duplicate interwikis? Brandmeistertalk  13:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * This would be better to ask at d:WD:PC probably. Izno (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * you should be able to update all of these here: wikidata:Q15109140. — xaosflux  Talk 13:34, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Issue raised at WD:PC since I'm unable to reassign interwikis due to conflicting interconnections. Brandmeistertalk  14:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

How to add wiki code to the END of my talk page?
TL;DR How can I add |} to the end of my talk page? I used to have it in the form of subpage, but this clashes with the new 'reply' system. So I merged the subpage back into wiki code, but now the formatting is affected (check my talk page to see the problem - I want beige coloring all the way, but it stops few posts from the bottom as the |} code is above the newer messages. TIA. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * An unclosed table is automatically closed at the end of the page so you can omit . PrimeHunter (talk) 11:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Note if you use the visual differences beta feature (which can be enabled as an option on diff pages in your preferences or by adding  to the end of a diff URL, and can be used even if you use the traditional wikitext editor for editing), leaving an unclosed element will break the output, as the autoclosing won't happen in the context of the diff. isaacl (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Expect this to break all the time when other people go to your talk page, especially if they use "new section". — xaosflux  Talk 19:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Piotrus has been trying to resolve several formatting questions, and they are beyond me. There are two lint errors on his talk page at the moment, but I doubt that those are relevant. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * is considered a low-priority "obsolete HTML tag" - we have over 9million of these and I don't expect them to get resolved en masse anytime soon. — xaosflux  Talk 15:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * T287040 mentions Help:DiscussionTools/Why can't I reply to this comment?#Accidental complex transclusion. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * My talk page has color all the way to the bottom so I used that as a clue as to how to fix. Getting rid of the table seems to work. There's an unclosed div tag but that seems to not matter to the end result.— Diannaa (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In general, if a HTML element is left unclosed, its effects persist until the closing tag of the next element up the tree. So if you have  that  will terminate the table as well as its matching . But it's bad practice to omit closing tags unless the HTML documentation explicitly says that a closing tag is omissible - this is not the case for either [//www.w3.org/TR/html52/grouping-content.html#the-div-element div] or [//www.w3.org/TR/html52/tabular-data.html#the-table-element table]. The MediaWiki software goes some way to adding in missing closing tags, but isn't perfect - which is why we have Special:LintErrors. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 14:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pretty much this. If someone makes a complicated page and purposefully has malformed coding on it, they shouldn't expect other utilities that depend on standardized coding to function normally. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I suspect we have a lot of colorful talk pages with flawed mark-up. Mine was originally adapted from User talk:Casliber.— Diannaa (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

All file page talk pages with Template:WPBannerMeta link to their corresponding file
Except not really. See for example where File talk:Van Halen - 1984.jpg is listed as containing a link to the main file, but of course, it doesn't. I found this is caused by WPBannerMeta which calls Pagetype which is a wrapper for Module:Pagetype but the actual culprit could also reside in Module:Namespace detect which is loaded in Module:Pagetype.

My problem with the erroneous link is that LuckyRename uses WhatLinksHere to compile a list of pages to update and as a result frequently tries to edit the talk page of files and fails because there's no link there. This error isn't fatal but it's very common and just annoying.

How can that erroneous link on WhatLinksHere be made to go away? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:17, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Found a way. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually I didn't. Now what? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Help:What links here says: The parser function #ifexist: causes a listing in "What links here" among the normal links even though no link is produced. I don't know a workaround and haven't heard of cases where we omit template features to avoid such WhatLinksHere entries. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Contributing to AWB
Hello there! I need help with this issue: AutoWikiBrowser/Sources. Is there any chance you can help me? :) --ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 19:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I have moved your question to the correct location, which is WT:AWB. Izno (talk) 19:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Help getting rid of something I clicked on
User:Maile66/Nettie Houston Bringhurst - I was going through checking myself, and clicked on something - don't know what- in the left-hand tool bar, don't know what. Now I can't get rid of this piece of crap popup on the right-hand side that wants me to: Minimize, Shoe metadata, Send appreciation to myself, or go to the next age in the queue. I just want this ugly floating thing to get off my work and stay away. Forever. Closing down my browser did no good, and neither did purging the page. And it floats up and down the page as I scroll, covering over part of the view of my window. What a piece of junk. Please advise. — Maile (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * sounds like the curation toolbar. In the top of it click the right arrow to minimize it, then click the little x in the top right to close it. —  xaosflux  Talk 23:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I got rid of it. I never was a fan of page curation, and now less so.  But thanks for your quick help. — Maile  (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there a bot/script for easily pinging all partipants in a previous discussion
I was wondering if there is a bot or script which can scan over one previous discussion, like an RfC, and list of users involved in such a discussion. The reason is would be useful is be able to quickly ping all previous user if a new discussion or RfC came up that is highly related, and saves human time looking over old discussion trying to list all users manually. For example it would be great to easily ping all users in this previous RM automatically (given it is lengthy) for the now same RM that is now ongoing. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 14:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm not aware of any such tool. I believe it would have to be a script, as I'm not aware of any way to make a lua module grab the text of the page it's invoked on, which is what you'd need to feed the function for it to pick out the names of participants. But I'm not intimately familiar with WP's backend, and other users may be aware of something I'm not. I could probably write such a tool in Javascript, if there's a call for it. I believe I've offered to write this very tool once before.
 * I've done this a few times, and I've never had much trouble gathering up all the names for a mass ping. I usually open each signature link in a new tab, then copy & paste out the names (this avoids the problem of accidentally trying to ping an editor's displayed name, as opposed to their actual username). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  14:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * For reference, you can get the wikitext of a page a module is invoked on, using mw.title.getCurrentTitle and then calling getContent on the title. See mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua reference manual for more (it's great)! Tol  &#124; talk &#124; contribs 15:27, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've often thought this is something I needed, but never got around to writing it. Maybe some day.  One of the difficulties is figuring out what a discussion means.  I guess anybody who edited a particular section delimited by a level-2 heading? -- RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would say any editor who left a signature between the level 2 header that starts the RfC (a user could type this into a template that invokes the module) and the next level 2 header.
 * Should be simple enough to find whatever text is between  and either , or   and turn that into a list.  ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  16:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I had the manual open and was looking for it, but I just didn't see that. That makes it easier, as it could be put in a module and then invoked via a template.  ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  16:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem! Tol  &#124; talk &#124; contribs 17:18, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * and &  (because I suspect you two might know a thing or two that's useful here). I put together a function in a sandbox module I've been fiddling with at Module:Sandbox/MjolnirPants. I also slapped together a template at Rfcping. I haven't figured out how to print the output of the module to the page (subst-ing the template will naturally just place the invoke statement on the target page), and my Lua is probably shitty because I hate regex like it was satan and my entire Lua resume is right there in that module.
 * If someone with more experience writing modules than I wants to take a poke at cleaning up my code or tell me how to "subst" the invoke call, that'd be awesome.
 * Right now, the discussion has to be on the page you're editing, and you've got to use the page-level edit button, but I already know how to solve both of those issues, I just don't have the time tonight.
 * If I (or we) can get this fully functional, I plan to make a dedicated module for it and fully document the template, at that time. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  21:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @MPants at work: In a function in, just   what you want to output.  Tol  &#124; talk &#124; contribs 23:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry; I misread your question. Perhaps check out safesubst? I'll take a look at it later. Tol  &#124; talk &#124; contribs 23:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm back and looking into that now, thanks for the tip. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  12:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ha! nailed it. From your link, I followed the "Recursive substing" link, and the first suggestion there works. When I tested it just now, it produced parseable wiki markup. So now I'm going to go ahead and fix the two issues I mentioned above before I start moving things around.  ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  12:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 20:56, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, seems to be working now. Use rfcping, passing it the name of the discussion header and the name of the page the discussion was held on, and be sure to subst it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  14:51, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You might want to consider wrapping it in require substitution. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * Thanks. I was not aware of that. I've done it and tested to make sure it's still working. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  21:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you all for the responses to my intial post (did not manage to reply quickly as caught up with other stuff). And thank you in particular MPants at work for creating the template, I will try using and try to mention on it on relevant talk pages now that such a tool exists. Regards  Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 00:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Why some image doesn't displayed in Page Previews?
For example Yuriko Koike (image from Commons, resolution 225 × 300 pixels), and there are many pages like this I've encountered before. Resolution too small? Hddty (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It displays for me. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It still doesn't display for me when logged out. Hddty (talk) 02:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you using an adblocker or any other browser extensions that can block elements of a page? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 00:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * My hunch is that this is a connectivity issue. Right-click and open the image (in a new tab) and tell us what the page says. Nardog (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not because connectivity. The image still doesn't displayed after I disabled all browser extensions. After previewing all bio on 2020_Summer_Olympics_opening_ceremony another person with image that doesn't displayed in preview is Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior (image in Commons/not fair use and resolution quite small), so its probably because low resolution (though I think all image should be displayed even if the resolution is small). Hddty (talk) 07:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, you mean Page Previews. You're right, it's because the original resolution is too small: . Looks like a landscape image has to be at least 320px wide and a portrait at least 250px tall. Nardog (talk) 07:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I still see the Page Previews image for Yuriko Koike but not Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe that's because of monitor size? After zoomed out this page I can see the image for Yuriko Koike but not Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior (even after max 25% zoom out in Chrome). Hddty (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Repeated regular space
Is there a template or something that can produce multiple regular spaces? 5x does what I'm trying to do but it's limited to 5 characters:

I know you can add two spaces like this to produce 10 spaces, but I'm looking for something simpler than this:

Loop would be perfect but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work with regular spaces: 10 (nothing happens)

85.76.142.4 (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This seems like a case of the XY problem. What are you trying to do that would require large numbers of regular spaces? Is there anything in Category:Inline spacing templates that would do what you need? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the vagueness. I need it for my AWB regexes that use the #expr function (for example, something like ). Didn't find any help in that category, unfortunately. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 22:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * But why do you want a certain number of regular spaces? Saying how you want to compute the number is not an answer. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:17, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I try to make this type of edits that VisualEditor does automatically to infoboxes. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 09:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * But if there's no template that supports regular spaces, I can just probably make  and then after doing that I'll replace   with one space. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 09:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Just realized I can't make this in one edit because you need to save your edit before subst works. I'd have to make two edits to make this work, so that's a no go. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * See Module:String but people get a bit irritated when others go around changing the style of existing articles and note WP:COSMETICBOT. Finally, AWB is supposed to be used by someone with an approved registered account. Johnuniq (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I did look at that module, but I couldn't figure out how to substitute modules. And don't worry, I won't be doing this on en-wiki. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Then why ask for a template? Templates are local to a wiki.  works but modules are also local. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That did work after all. I'm pretty sure I tried that before, but the "show changes" button didn't show what I expected it to show (but now that I tried again, it does - how strange, maybe I typoed something). And now that I actually tried to save the edit, it worked. Fortunately many templates/modules have been imported to other wikis and work similarly. And if not, I can always copy the template from en-wiki. The reason I asked here is that usually I find technical help here more easily. 85.76.142.4 (talk) 13:27, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If a post isn't about the English Wikipedia then please always say what it is about. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Gender used in messages is biased in preferences
In the preferences settings under the first tab named "User Profile" there is a section about: Gender used in messages, where a user can specify to be addressed by gender neutral, feminine, or masculine pronouns, and when another user hovers over the username the chosen pronouns will be displayed as he/him or she/her along with the user rights and other user groups of the user as well as their edit count and some other basic information about the user.

However, there is a technical issue with this feature that makes the preference appear to be biased in nature where the feature appears as if it doesn't work at all if a user chooses that they wish to remain gender neutral because if this option is chosen there is simply nothing at all displayed when you hover over the username, and there should be at least something such as they/them to indicate the user has made the choice and the feature is working. Huggums537 (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I propose we add they/them to the feature to avoid the appearance that the preference is biased against people who choose to remain gender neutral, and to ensure that all editors will have a way of knowing the feature actually works. Huggums537 (talk) 18:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I just realized this is probably the wrong place to post this. I will copy this over to village Pump (Proposals) in order to get community consensus to take it to Phabricator and then come back here and link back to the discussion. Thanks! Huggums537 (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Link to proper discussion area is here: Village_pump_(proposals) Huggums537 (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Selective transclusion
A section on "Dynamic tonality" was added into Contemporary classical music and again, identical, into Classical music. I replaced the latter identical text with a selective transclusion from the former, following the instructions at WP:SELTRANS. I can swear that when I did that on 25 July, it worked as expected. When I now look at the version where I did that, no transcluded text is shown. The code I used is: Why is it so? Did anything happen to the transclusion mechanism? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This fixed it. Apparently you can't place a comment in the same line as the section heading. Nardog (talk) 05:11, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, trailing comments break other features as well, such as the URL fragment after editing a section. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 07:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

How to connect pages with Wikidata items in the new Vector
This announcement is for Wikipedians who are using the new Vector only. For more information about the project, see WP:VPM#Desktop Improvements update.

In the week of August 2nd, the link for "/" will be restored to the sidebar. It will appear in the section as "/".

When building the language button, we did not include the "/" link. This was because this functionality is a part of improved language selector. That selector is currently being built by another team of the Wikimedia Foundation. As a result, the link was missing. We have received requests to restore it.

We explored the best way to do it as a temporary solution. We decided to add it into the sidebar in the section. You can see the location on the screenshot.

When the improved language selector is deployed, the "/" link will be back together with the language links in the button. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is it so complicated to ping somebody?
I just happened to notice I had been mentioned in Sockpuppet investigations/Vyaiskaya, but never got a ping. Investigating, it looks like the signature and the mention came in two different edits, so the ping failed. I see this a lot. Why was it designed this way? It seems like an unnecessary complication which just means a lot of broken pings because people don't jump through all the hoops properly. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * A "mention" without a signature is often archiving or refactoring which shouldn't give pings. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:42, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Would it help to add "show list of pings on preview/save" to next year's wishlist? Certes (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * On save is "Successful mention" at Special:Preferences. I do sometimes miss it on preview. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Abbreviated journal names
Hi, hoping interested/knowledgeable parties might know something about abbreviated journal titles, which I am coming to as a newbie. It is called ISO 4 and there is an API https://abbreviso.toolforge.org/ for translating from long form to short (unclear about internationalization support). I am interested in going the other way, from short form to long. Does such a thing exist? -- Green  C  18:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The ISSN LTWA or redirects tagged with R from ISO 4 abbreviation may be useful. If not then I'm sure WP:WikiProject Academic Journals will be able to help. Certes (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you want to talk to @Headbomb. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:JOURNALS uses TokenZero's tool quite heavily. There's an API for it and other advanced functions, and its also integrated into Infobox journal (although you have to opt-in, see this in particular. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As for short to long, there's no way to do this automatically, since you lose information by abbreviating. For example J. Phys. Chem. could be Journal of Physics and Chemistry, Journal of Physical Chemistry, Journal of the Physical Chemist, Journal of the Physical Chemists, Journal of Physicists in Chemistry... and many others. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It can sometimes be done automatically.  is a R from ISO 4 abbreviation to The Journal of Physical Chemistry A.  However, not all journals have such redirects, especially those where the abbreviation is ambiguous with another journal or a different topic.  (Trivial example: Tetrahedron is about pyramids and not a redirect to Tetrahedron (journal).)  Certes (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Another thought: Wikidata property:P1160 holds the abbreviation. You could create a local rainbow table of those and look up your abbreviation to decode the full name. Certes (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * - thank you for your help.  --  Green  C  22:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Nowikis
Hi there, I sent an editor a message on their talk page wanting to show them how to add dashes to text. So I added both dashes within "nowikis", but instead of the text showing up, the dashes showed up. Eg. – &mdash;. Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The issue is that the  and similar are HTML entities, rather than wikitext constructs, so wikitext escaping doesn't work. I displayed the code earlier with , using an extra level of escaping. Vahurzpu (talk) 22:22, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That did it! Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You could send them a link to How to make dashes. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * – and — also works too, if you want. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Nested template that works in some contexts but not in others???
Consider this simple construction:

which produces (as it should)

It works fine here. It works in my sandbox. It works at Template:Annotated link/doc (see 'Piped to use template:lang per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC' [which I added yesterday per discussion at template talk page]). But if I put it in the See also of a live page, any live page, I get
 * Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques – International organisation for underwater activities

(except that the second instance of Confédération etc is in italics, suggesting that it almost worked.

What am I missing? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * When used in mainspace, the lang template also spits out, which breaks the syntax of your intended wikilink. You can add   to avoid this. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Result! Have a barnstar on me. Thank you. I'll update Annotated link accordingly. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Color background
Hello! Can someone help me with a weird phenomenon I've been having at SqWiki? At en.wiki, module documentation is rendered over a colored background; see for example, Module:Documentation. At sq.wiki, module documentation is rendered over an uncolored background; see for example, sq:Moduli:Documentation. What needs to be done at sq.wiki to render module documentation over a colored background in the same way that template documentation is rendered over a colored background; for example sq:Stampa:Dokumentacioni?

I don't know what causes the discrepancy. Our module's sandboxes are also lacking the sandbox template (even though I imported it from EnWiki) which I believe it is also related to the problem I explained above. - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The messages are under MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-*. Probably should add a note to that effect on Template:Documentation and/or Module:Documentation since I have to look that up every time. Izno (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Added to Module:Documentation/doc. Izno (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks man! It got fixed. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikilinter?
I have some code which parses SPI pages using mwparserfromhell. It's mis-parsing Sockpuppet investigations/Anglo Pyramidologist/Archive. I suspect there's a missing curly brace or something like that. Do we have any good tools for finding such things? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Just FYI that page is reporting the following pile of errors:

Old behaviour of link-wrapping font tags	11 Missing end tag	4 Obsolete HTML tags	21 Stripped tags	4
 * — xaosflux  Talk 23:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Do help? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @Redrose64 Yes, they did fix the problem, so thanks for that, but it did give me a few WTF moments as each time I tried a new debugging technique, I got different results as I hit different versions of yours :-( How did you find those problems?  And, @Xaosflux what tool did you use to generate your list of errors? -- RoySmith (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Brute force attack: look for any opening brackets, double-brackets, double-braces and triple-braces, and check that each has the appropriate closing construct that balances it at the same nesting level, and which encloses non-markup text. For example, is a fix for an unmatched closing double-bracket that also fixed an unmatched opening single-bracket. By checking from the innermost level outwards, we pick up  where every opening tag or double-bracket also has a closing double-bracket or tag; but they overlap instead of nest, which is wrong. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 00:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see Page information from the tool bar to get the list of error counts. Then how do you actually dig down and find the specific places? -- RoySmith (talk) 00:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I for one use lintHint on Special:ExpandTemplates to find responsible code. Nardog (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pageinfo gives the counts, but doesn't show you where they are or their precise nature. The 11 instances of "Old behaviour of link-wrapping font tags" are in peoples sigs where you have a construct like  which should be altered to   - I don't know why it's counting 11 where there are actually 13; whilst the 21 instances of "Obsolete HTML tags" should be the <font ></font> tags (of which there are more than 50 pairs) and the <big ></big> tags (of which there are more than 30), so I don't know why it's counting 21 where there are almost 90. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The lint counter is not real-time. — xaosflux  Talk 11:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I have fixed all Lint errors in that page Special:Diff/1036275398., it was showing the count as 11 because font tag with face attribute is not counted as old behaviour of link-wrapping font tag error. Lint error count in page information is not accurate because the count for each type of error in a page maxes out at 20, sometimes 21. So a page can have hundreds of errors and it would still show the count as 20. <big ></big> tags while obsolete in html 5, is not considered as obsolete by Linter. Apparently MediaWiki will continue support for big tags per mw:User:Legoktm/HTML+MediaWiki ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That page is Legoktm's opinion; there are several tasks about big tag in Phabricator. Izno (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * A proposal really :) I added a notice at the top to clarify though. That said, MediaWiki will continue supporting  tags until someone (some group?) decides otherwise. Personally I don't think going around fixing them is a worthwhile use of time, but I'm sure others disagree. Legoktm (talk) 04:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

formatting of guidance page
Hi all

A couple of years ago I spent quite a lot of time creating a guidance page on Commons to help people find high quality photos to use in Wikipedia articles and also outside of Wikimedia. I know at least a couple of people who use it regularaly in their organisations. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Simple_media_reuse_guide

I've just come back to it and some of the formatting has really broken:


 * 1) The titles which are overlayed over the images have disapeared, I guess some ways of coding have been removed?
 * 2) The blocks of text and the title images are different sizes seemingly at random lengths

I've tried all the ways I know to try and fix this, if anyone is able to help I would really really appreciate it.

Thanks very much

John Cummings (talk) 12:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't see anything wrong with the page's display, but I fixed a big pile of unclosed tags. Maybe it will help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks very much, I've got quite a high resolution display so maybe that has something to do with it. I got it to display to do the wrong sizes on my older laptop by zooming the page out with ctrl and -. John Cummings (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I got the headings back by removing  from the divs enclosing them. However the page could really use a complete rewrite, ideally using TemplateStyles, so that it works on mobile. the wub  "?!"  16:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks very much indeed, I've no idea how to do that, do you know anywhere I could make a request like that? John Cummings (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @John Cummings I've started working on it :) The blocks should hopefully all be the same width now. Making it mobile-friendly is going to be tricky though, I'll take another bash at it this weekend. the wub "?!"  00:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks so much for this, I spent ages writing it and always very frustrated in trying to make it look right. John Cummings (talk) 08:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * @John Cummings Okay, I'm done tinkering with it now and it should look fine on mobile, as well as the code being much easier to maintain. Also took the opportunity to update some of the content, including the lists of competition winners. the wub "?!"  22:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @The wub thanks so much for your help, it looks great. I'll try to reuse the code in other places. Thanks again, John Cummings (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

New Vector?
What is the official / correct way for a user script to test for a page being viewed by a user that is configured to use the new evil Vector rather than the real Vector? They both show up as — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * try: "options":"VectorSkinVersion" — xaosflux  Talk 18:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * — xaosflux  Talk 18:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Though technically, that is a user preference, and not necessarily how "a page being viewed" is set, as that page view could have an override such as ?useskin. — xaosflux  Talk 18:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * So — just for anybody else watching — for real Vector and  for evil Vector — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I guess what I really want is to know the skin as it is now being displayed, so that a user script can code around the damage inflicted by Evil Vector — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Old Vector has the  class on the   element, new Vector does not. (Both also have the   class.) Matma Rex talk 19:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is File:Pump.jpg considered salted when the file exists and is not controversial?
I was browsing the list of protected titles. While most of the forbidden titles are forbidden for obvious reasons, I noticed that a few links were blue (mostly ones that would break major articles or tutorials if messed with). One of the ones that stuck out the most was File:Pump.jpg. The inclusion on the list raised a few questions.

1. Why is it on the protected titles list if it is such a uncontroversial image?

2. How does this image exist if it was on the protected titles list?

3. How would this be controversial considering it links to no other pages?

Is there something I am missing here? Maybe it used to be a file related to the village pump that was replaced? Please call me Blue (talk) 18:52, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * See the log (log links are often not displayed). The image uploaded with this filename was, how shall I say, a bit more offensive than the current image. It was repeatedly uploaded and used for vandalism in articles, which you can see by following the links in the log. The protection means that it is 'locally' protected, meaning no one can upload an image with the same name on the English Wikipedia. If the filename exists on Wikimedia Commons (WP:COMMONS), then that's what you see. Anyways, that was 14+ years ago - IMO it's probably been protected long enough. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. I was wondering what was up with that. Please call me Blue (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

erroneous "new external links" notification
When I made this edit, I got a warning message stating "Your edit includes new external links." As the diff shows, my edit does nothing of the kind; it merely corrects some punctuation in the text, not even changing an internal link, let alone adding an external one. So whatever script triggers that warning message is buggy. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That sounds like an edit filter false positive. &#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  08:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it's from MediaWiki:Fancycaptcha-addurl, the MediaWiki feature which asks for a CAPTCHA when IP's and new users add external links. It can be triggered if a template somewhere on the page produces a new url. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * My edit neither added nor modified any templates, so if the filter thinks any template generated a new URL, it's still incorrect. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 19:20, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * A template anywhere on the page. Hard to say without knowing how Fancycaptcha-addurl works but there are weird things that can happen. If the problem is replicatable, you could save the HTML and extract the http://... and compare to see what is changing from a recent older diff version of the page (also the HTML). -- Green  C  21:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If no one here has access to the Fancycaptcha-addurl code, would someone be willing to report the bug to MediaWiki? They apparently don't want bug reports from the unwashed masses, requiring an account to add one to their bug tracker.  I can't determine whether the problem is replicatable without making bogus edits to the live page, but as you say, examining the code is the next logical step anyway. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 00:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You could, of course, wash. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 05:51, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's most likely this edit to Module:Find sources/links/google newspapers, which is transcluded via the BLP sources banner, that triggered the warning. The article cache wasn't up-to-date before your edit. Nardog (talk) 06:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I see. So the root problem is a bug in Fancycaptcha-addurl, where it is unaware of the difference between URLs in the page and URLs present only via transclusion.  Should transcluded URLs even be under its consideration?  For instance, if my edit had added the BLP sources banner where it wasn't previously present, this still doesn't seem to fall under the situation the captcha is trying to prevent, that of bots adding spammy external links.  If an external link in BLP sources is inappropriate, that should be addressed to the editor of the template, not the editor of a page using the template, correct? 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 22:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Can I borrow a pair of eyes at template:country density?
After several days of debugging, I can't find what's wrong with this simple template: when country density is just basically. — Guarapiranga ☎ 07:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * works,
 * doesn't,
 * The problem is that  is currently returning "Template:Country area/" and presumably the square brackets in the red link are then reported as a problem. Omitting   gives a number. Johnuniq (talk) 09:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've went ahead and set source to default to UN (as it does in country area). The way parameters work in MediaWiki means if you pass an empty parameter to a template, it will not use the default value. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Aha! Thank you,.
 * So is my lesson from this that a parameter passed as empty is not the same as omitted?
 * Cheers. — Guarapiranga ☎ 22:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Correct. If there is no default then most but not all templates are coded to treat omitted and empty the same. If there is a default then few templates are coded to give the default for an empty parameter. The caller must usually omit the parameter to get the default. If the default for  is   then templates usually say  . If you also want the template to give   for empty   then you can do the more complicated  . Maybe Help:Template should mention this. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Strange behavior at Mitrella (gastropod)
The list in this article shows strange behavior for which I can't find an explanation: The edit page shows the right spelling of the species names. I have no idea how the wrong names show up. What is the cause and what can be done ? JoJan (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delicate Mitrella instead of Mitrella delicata
 * Mitrella flocked instead of Mitrella floccata
 * Fortuitous Mitrella instead of Mitrella fortuita
 * Mitrella inaccess instead of Mitrella inaccessa (with a pop-up showing Mitrella inaccessible)
 * Neocaledonic Mitrella instead of Mitrella neocaledonica
 * Nomadic Mitrella instead of Mirella nomadica
 * Mitrella Peroniana instead of Mitrella peroniana


 * Looks fine to me. It's as if you have some translation script running. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, that must be machine translation at your end, probably by Google Chrome or Google Toolbar. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I suck at Photoshop gallaries
I've added a photo gallery to South Bronx Greenway, but after playing with the layout a couple of times, it's still butt-ugly. Could somebody who's good at image layout take a look? This is a DYK, so it would be nice if it could be un-butt-uglified before it hit the front page. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Strange error on Sockpuppet Investigations page
Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby

It says "Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character ",". Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character ",".". I checked the source code and found nothing wrong. What is the error that needs to be fixed? Yleventa2 (talk) 23:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not expecting an thousand seperator in Template:SPI archive notice, which it does get from the count of entries in the category for this person. needs to become 0 . This line is used several times.--Snævar (talk) 23:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You can just add a parameter value of "R" to the magic word to display a raw number. See mw:Help:Magic words for more. Terasail [✉️] 14:14, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

class=mw-datatable no longer working in Firefox
See: Help:Table#mw-datatable.

I noticed this today. I don't know when it started.

class=mw-datatable is no longer working in Firefox in desktop view. I checked in 2 Windows 10 Pro desktop PCs.

In desktop view it works in Chrome and Edge.

It does not work in mobile view in all 3 browsers. I don't know if it ever did. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * mw-datatable works fine for me on that page. That said, the class in question is not obviously for non-MediaWiki-internal use and you should not expect that it will always work in arbitrary locations. Izno (talk) 04:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * . I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying mw-datatable is highlighting rows in your Firefox browser on the Help:Table page? It is not working for me in 2 desktop PCs in Firefox.
 * And not just on the Help page. But also in article space. See "What links here" for Template:Static row numbers table. It uses mw-datatable.
 * Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Static row numbers table
 * See the first article listed: Bauxite
 * I see the table row highlighting (when cursor is over the row) in Chrome and Edge, but not Firefox.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 04:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, PC and Android. I suspect it's an extension you've installed that's interfering. Nardog (talk) 05:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Works for me in Firefox using the monobook skin in desktop view, but the highlighting doesn't work in mobile view or using the minerva skin. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 07:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the  prefix means that it is for MediaWiki-internal use, but that it is a class that has styling that is bundled with the MediaWiki software, so that it doesn't need to be added to the site's own common.css. As an example, consider the   and   classes: these are documented at mw:Manual:Collapsible elements and are generally preferred to our own   and   classes. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah I also don't think mw-datatable is internal only.. However, it might be that it isn't loaded automatically in the way that collapsible is, so wether or not it works might depend on the skin used and as we know, the skins are seeing quite a few changes recently... —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen anything anywhere to indicate that mw-datatable is meant for non-developer consumption given that it brings styles that conflict (slightly) with wikitable. mw-collapsible and co. were however clearly made to replace collapsible and co. Were mw-datatable meant to be used generally, the styles would be cleaned up such that the only addition they would bring would be the hover. Izno (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Izno is right. This class is tied to an internal PHP class and those styles are not always added, shipped as part of the mediawiki.pager.tablePager module. They have never worked on Minerva for this reason.
 * It is currently not added in the same way as collapsible, (but could be). Jdlrobson (talk) 20:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would not have said "works fine for me" if it did not work. Izno (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * As regards the original q.: in Firefox 89.0.2, Windows 7 Home Premium, version 6.1.7601 -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 12:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I disabled all my extensions in Firefox, closed all Firefox windows, restarted the PC, and did Ctrl-F5. Nothing has helped so far. It seems that my Firefox is not loading anything from class=mw-datatable. All I see at Help:Table is this:

To me it looks like that with or without class=mw-datatable

I could uninstall all the Firefox extensions and see if that helps. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Which skin are you using? — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 16:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The skin is Vector. I've updated the URL above to make that reproducible. This will also impact Modern, MonoBook and CologneBlue this week. I've opened a Phabricator ticket. See top. Jdlrobson (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am using Vector. Thanks for the Phabricator ticket. mw-datatable is used in a lot of tables. People like it for  2 reasons:
 * 1: The row highlighting on hover.
 * 2: The white background for non-header cells. It makes for more contrast especially when there are non-bolded links in the non-header cells. The blue links against the normal gray background of non-header cells are not very contrasting. Bolded blue links against the gray background of header cells are less of a problem, though I think the gray background of headers is too dark of a gray. class=mw-datatable is often used with class=wikitable and the gray header background of class=wikitable overrides the blue background of class=mw-datatable headers. People can see the "Vectorized" Help:Table link in Chrome or Edge to see it working correctly. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * To clarify, right now  works everywhere except on mobile web and in New Vector (e.g. you have opted-in by checking Legacy Vector in the preferences. Perhaps @Timeshifter has done that?). However as others have mentioned, this is indeed not meant for on-wiki use and will, in coming weeks, also become unavailable for wiki pages with regular Vector and in other skins. I've added two lines of CSS to Template:Import-blanktable, which could use instead for cases where you think there is an extraordinary need for highlighting or white background (example). As I pointed out on Phabricator T287997, though, I would recommend against bold adoption on millions of pages. If you believe that   tables have insufficient colour contrast by default for simple text and links (and you may very well be right!), then please override   via MediaWiki:Common.css itself, which would be a far less work and disruption to accomplish. After some exposure and experience, this could then even be taken back into the wiki software itself and benefit all other wikis. If an opt-out is needed for rare cases where a grey background is actually better, a different class could be introduced for that in the same way. E.g.   on   and use as  . --Krinkle (talk) 00:59, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I left a note at Template talk:Import-blanktable. I had my preferences set to "Vector (default)". That appears to be the new Vector. Mw-datatable is not working for me in Firefox and Chrome in new vector. It works in Edge. When I changed to "Legacy Vector" on that preferences page you linked to, then I see that mw-datatable works in Firefox, Chrome, and Edge. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:14, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment. There seems to be some confusion about the number of articles mw-datatable is used in. It is used in a lot of articles, and it is expanding due to its use in templates. An article search for mw-datatable currently pulls up 300+ articles. But mw-datatable is also currently used in 43 templates. The articles those templates are used in are NOT listed in the previously mentioned 300+ articles. For example, the 107 articles using Template: Static row numbers table. See transclusion count. See discussion at T287997. I edit Help:Table and people ask about how to do row highlighting. The info was only relatively recently added to Help:Table. But it is rapidly being used by more and more tables. It would be a shame to lose this very useful function. It is difficult sometimes to follow a row of data across a wide table. Row highlighting on hover makes it much easier. And the white background of mw-datatable makes the light blue hover color stand out. And thus easier to follow across the row. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Template:Coord on Wikispecies
I have imported Template:Coord and subtemplates/ modules to Wikispecies, as species:Template:Coord, but it fails with a "Lua error: callParserFunction: function "#coordinates" was not found." error.

How can this be fixed, there? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:11, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The GeoData extension needs to be enabled there. See Requesting wiki configuration changes for the process. Legoktm (talk) 09:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Answered on wikispecies.--Snævar (talk) 12:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Calvary Baptist Academy (Shreveport, Louisiana)
I'm not sure why the infobox map isn't working. Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 10:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by not working? Both maps appear to work for me. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:03, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I tried it in a different browser and it works fine. Must be a Firefox thing.  Cheers. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:22, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * in Firefox. — xaosflux  Talk 13:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

marking almost all edits as "minor"
I often come across editors who are marking all or almost all of their edits as "minor" even though they are not minor according to our definition. I'm wondering if they must be doing it consciously or there is some preference they have set or tool they are using which could be doing it for them. I know that there used to be a preference option "mark all edits minor by default" but I can't see it available in my preferences now. Zerotalk 14:26, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It may be that it still works for those who chose it in the olden days. I've also noticed that some academics & journalists have a wholly different concept of what is "minor" to the WP norm. Of course some usage is deliberately deceptive. Johnbod (talk) 14:30, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-31
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Octicons-tools.svg If your wiki uses markup like <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> or <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> without the required <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> attribute, then these will no longer work in 2 weeks. There is a short-term fix that can be added to your local wiki's Common.css page, which is explained at T287701. From now on, all usages should include the full attributes, for example: <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> or <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> . This also applies to some other HTML tags, such as  or  . You can find existing examples on your wiki that need to be updated, using the instructions at T287701.
 * Reminder: Wikimedia has migrated to the Libera Chat IRC network, from the old Freenode network. Local documentation should be updated.

Problems
 * Last week, all wikis had slow access or no access for 30 minutes. There was a problem with generating dynamic lists of articles on the Russian Wikinews, due to the bulk import of 200,000+ new articles over 3 days, which led to database problems. The problematic feature has been disabled on that wiki and developers are discussing if it can be fixed properly.

Changes later this week
 * When adding links to a page using VisualEditor or the 2017 wikitext editor, disambiguation pages will now only appear at the bottom of search results. This is because users do not often want to link to disambiguation pages.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * The team of the Wikipedia app for Android is working on communication in the app. The developers are working on how to talk to other editors and get notifications. You can read more. They are looking for users who want to test the plans. Any editor who has an Android phone and is willing to download the app can do this.
 * The Beta Feature for will be updated in the coming weeks.  You will be able to subscribe to individual sections on a talk page at more wikis.  You can test this now by adding   to the end of the talk page's URL (example).

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

20:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You can test that 'subscribe' feature on this page by clicking this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&dtenable=1  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Incomplete signatures
Over the past couple of days my signature has sometimes not fully appeared, even though I've used four tildes and checked in preview. It looks like others may be having a similar issue. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Please post an example. Always include an example when you report an issue. The usual cause is an unclosed tag in an earlier section which didn't affect a preview of the edited section, but we have no way of telling without knowing the page. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:54, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If I see it again, I'll post it here. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Monobook site footer left sidebar squish
The site footer is currently appearing on the bottom-left side of the screen only. below languages, with the categories the last thing on the right. I suspect something's missing a clear. I'm seeing this on every page with more content than sidebar. I'm using Google Chrome Version 92.0.4515.131, MonoBook, on a widescreen laptop. Please see attached screenshot - I zoomed right the way out, but it's on the bottom left. I checked another computer to see if it had the same issue, which it did, but I don't seem to have it when I'm logged out.-- <u style="color:#00F">Laun <u style="color:#00F">chba <u style="color:#00F">ller 19:56, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the image! You're using the Monobook skin, which looks to have been broken (WP:ITSTHURSDAY), that's why it only happens logged in. I've left a note on a ticket I think might be the cause (T287410), it may get split out as its own issue. Izno (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Also ITSTHURSDAY: the styling for the "[Mark this page as patrolled]" thing has changed in some skins. Timeless still behaves as previously, it has the rule  but other skins (Cologne Blue, MinervaNeue, Modern, MonoBook and Vector) have the changed rule   which mean that it is now normal size and left-aligned. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Isarra got fed up with the CSS changes ongoing since a year and a half now and is now just using all the CSS from 1.34. That's why Timeless is unaffected.) Izno (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Two ways to link to a specific revision of a page
What is the difference between Special:Redirect/revision/123456789 and Special:PermanentLink/123456789? Kleinpecan (talk) 16:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * They are equivalent. Special:PermanentLink is older. Special:Redirect from 2013 has more features and can add new features. I suggest to always use Special:PermanentLink or Special:PermaLink for permanent links. More users know it, it's documented at Help:Permanent link, and the link under "Tools" says "Permanent link". PrimeHunter (talk) 20:35, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I never even knew Special:Redirect existed. Playing around, it looks like they're almost equivalent.  One does (at least by default) a 301, the other a 302.

permalink:< HTTP/2 302 redirect:< HTTP/2 301
 * -- RoySmith (talk) 20:59, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * None, Special:PermanentLink was introduced in 2010 (after originally being requested in 2004), and in 2013 a more generic Special:Redirect was added primarily to be able to link to users by ID instead of username, but also added revision support since it was trivial. Legoktm (talk) 21:52, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. Kleinpecan (talk) 01:22, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

A problem with an archived PDF file
I am working on BrikWars. The third reference is to a PDF. I have tried archiving it using the "Fix Dead Links" tool. However the archived pdf comes back blank. I can see there are good files further back in the wayback machine. I suppose I could just edit the archive tags manually, but I suspect that would not get to the root of the issue. Slimy asparagus (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The archived file is cut off at precisely one megabyte (1,048,576 bytes). I assume the archiving simply failed in this one case. Either way it must be a problem with Wayback Machine itself, not our tool. Nardog (talk) 02:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Desktop inconsistencies in mobile editing
I am perplexed in finding that the desktop appearance and editing experience is considerably different when editing with a mobile device depending on which of two possible links you may happen to choose when launching the desktop skin. To conserve space I have collapsed the screenshots and additional details in the box below. I am curious to know why this happens.

Incidentally, when I was uploading these files to Commons I noticed that their desktop links were identical to ours in both location and performance so I gather that this is not a bug or something that needs to be fixed, but it sure felt buggersome to me.

Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * }
 * those "three dots" controls don't seem to be coming from us at all - I think they are a control of your specific browser, that when clicked is trying to re-fetch/re-render the page? — xaosflux  Talk 19:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @John Cline The first image seems to be on the mobile site, en.m.wikipedia.org&#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  19:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding to what xaosflux and Qwerfjkl said: use the "Desktop" link at the bottom of the page. The "Desktop" button in the three-dot "kebab" menu is a browser feature that makes it try to pretend to be a desktop browser by changing the User-Agent string. This trick doesn't work correctly on some sites, including Wikipedia. In theory, it should be possible to update Wikipedia's software so that it pays attention to the User-Agent string in this case, but right now it doesn't. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 10:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The three-dot menu doesn't work as you expected because our mobile site does not redirect you to the desktop site if you visit it using a desktop browser (or a browser pretending to be desktop) – even though the desktop site redirects to mobile in the opposite scenario. This is known as bug T60425. Matma Rex talk 19:36, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the replies and will comply with the advice therein. Cheers.--John Cline (talk) 05:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Discussion about Metrolyrics
Metrolyrics has been offline since 29 June 2021 and is most likely dead, there are many metrolyrics references on Wikipedia. Should these dead links be replace with another site's? Powering everyone (talk) 17:24, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've always been a bit suspicious of Metrolyrics, partly because it's javascript-heavy, partly because of the advertising, mainly because it seemed to be a wholesale violator of copyrights. Maybe it's been taken down for that last reason. According to www.isitdownrightnow.com it's been down for at least a week. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * about 1400 hits all namespaces.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

So what should be done? Powering everyone (User Talk:Powering everyone) 05:37, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * When you are ready to call it dead post to WP:URLREQ and we'll get em archived. --  Green  C  22:02, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest outright removal, or replacing them with citation needed. Lyrics sites, much less this one, are most likely to be copyvio and fall within WP:ELNEVER. Nardog (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It would require a consensus discussion, probably at RSN, with a result to remove them. The archive bots are not really setup for it, maybe some users have AWB scripts? In the mean time converting dead links to archives is a step forward. -- Green  C  23:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There have been numerous problems with MetroLyrics over the years, leading it to be added to WP:NOTRSMUSIC (see the linked discussions there). "Outright removal" would be better than archiving. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * And would be much easier and quicker? But then, in many cases, we may be left with empty section... Martinevans123 (talk) 14:52, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Then the empty section will be removed in the meantime. Lyrics websites are not that fundamental for the articles, don't add anything new and in many cases, if not all, violate copyright. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 09:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Cyber security issues
How are potential cyber security issues with a website given in a source dealt with? Having enquired of the user in question, this edit was because they "clicked on this link a couple of times and (their) Norton software flagged it up in large red print as a dangerous website". Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Apparently some security software flags www.fifeminingheritage.org.uk as dangerous. That may be accurate either because the site has been hacked and malware installed, or as often happens, the domain name has been taken over by a scammer with malware. Usually, however, it's a false alarm and the website is ok. Putting that URL into the Google checker claims it is ok. Regarding lapsed domain names, the site I used to use for whois no longer works. Is there a whois for domain names at tools? Johnuniq (talk) 11:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Timeline syntax
How do I make this thing work? What am I doing wrong? — hueman1 ( talk •  contributions ) 14:51, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * How are you trying to make it look? You've defined one bar with multiple labeled intervals. But most of the intervals are too small horizontally for the text to appear without overlapping other text. If you want each interval to be on a separate line, you can make each one a separate bar by adding "bar:NAME" to the start of each line in the PlotData section. CodeTalker (talk) 22:08, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I restored it to an older version and it works just fine without "bar:NAME". The problem with the older version is that it's not showing 2021 and 2020 is "2020.2". — hueman1 ( talk •  contributions ) 01:30, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm not really an expert on timelines, but a little experimentation indicates that adding a BarData definition like this:
 * BarData =
 * barset:PM
 * and also adding
 * barset:PM
 * to the PlotData (both of which you have in the older working version) resolves the problem.   However I don't know why this is necessary; the documentation seems to indicate that declaring a barset should be optional. CodeTalker (talk) 02:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your suggestions. — hueman1 ( talk •  contributions ) 13:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

ivmbox css
I noticed the issue at Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment

The numbering of the list is messed up. Apparently it's due to this CSS:

I can't tell where it's coming from, though. Doesn't seem to be in Common.css or Vector.css. I'm not entirely sure why it's there in the first place. Is it safe to unset this property? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * These are all WMF classes. (.messagebox is technically our class first but is legacy since .*mbox showed up. It's on my hit list to remove entirely.) As such, they should show up in the ResourceLoader module for the particular skin of use.
 * In our context, I would guess you can remove .messagebox, first importing the CSS from Common.css while ignoring the CSS from upstream. You can identify more easily in console what that CSS is by using, which will separate the RL files into their different sources. Izno (talk) 14:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The module is, but the code itself appears here, which says it's for printing, which is weird. Whatever its purpose, all only children in mboxes (as opposed to e.g.  ) seems way too broad; who knows what else it's making invisible. Nardog (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Template:User UTC
I had revised User UTC to let it display the time of the user instead of plain UTC. I hope I didn't break anything. ——羊羊/Yangyang (talk) 03:07, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Weirdness with moves and watchlist
My watchlist currently has on it:

Move log 15:59:40 Change352 talk contribs block moved page Draft:Tammi Harrison to Draft:Smoke Out Queen ‎(name)

What's weird about that is that after that move, I also moved it (after doing a histmerge). It looks like the watchlist is showing "the most recent move other than your own". Is that intended behavior? Maybe the histmerge is confusing things? -- RoySmith (talk) 16:42, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Admin tasks shows UAA reports at -1?
Template:Admin tasks currently shows UAA reports at -1. I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask, but I was confused and thought that someone here would likely have some idea of what is going on there. Clover moss (talk) 00:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The count assumes there is a commented out . I have restored that comment. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Implementation of book namespace deletion
Yesterday, Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_181 closed with consensus for deletion while retaining WP:REFUND possibilities. The only way to achieve this is to move the pages to another namespace (presumably the Wikipedia: one) before deletion. Early on in the discussion I was under the impression this was not required (and thus the proposal itself was formulated under this assumption) but it definitely is as can be seen from the education program discussions.

My concrete proposal is to move all pages to subpages of Books/archive with a bot and host a list of (deleted) books at Books/archive. This will remove the possibility of refunding previously deleted books though. According to the WP:REFUND archives this has never happened though even though WP:BPROD explicitly allows for this. After this I will file a phabricator ticket for removal of the namespace. I also plan on dealing with related Book namespace cleanup which may have to occur before or after the massmove and namespace deletion. --Trialpears (talk) 07:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * wait - do you want to undelete every page in Book:, move it, and redelete it? We are under no obligation to host deleted version indefinitely. — xaosflux  Talk 07:57, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No I was just noting that it won't be possible to undelete previously deleted books after this but considered that no big deal since we literally never had a refund request for a book as far as I can tell. Perhaps I formulated that poorly. --Trialpears (talk) 08:00, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * OK thanks, I agree - and don't think we should do anything to try to maintain those currently-deleted-versions. — xaosflux  Talk 08:06, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There's only ever been 24 restorations in those namespaces, almost half for history merges or splits, and so there's little chances of this being an issue. On the other hand, there aren't all that many deleted pages there to start with - some 1319 in Book: and 952 in Book talk:, compared to 7691/7357 currently existing - so briefly restoring them for the move seems like it would be low-effort. —Cryptic 13:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean it wouldn't be too annoying with twinkle d-batch and und-batch, but I'm inclined to just not bother given the tiny amount of restorations historically as well as how unlikely it is for there to be worth while content among them. If someone thinks it should be done I'm happy to do it though. --Trialpears (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , FWIW I also agree that undeleting previously-deleted Books isn't worth the time and effort given there has been negligible interest in REFUNDing them up to now. firefly  ( t · c ) 16:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Like I've put at in the closing note of the RFC, I disagree with moving to userspace. It would be very problematic, because Book-namespace books were community endeavors, and had multiple editors and no 'owner'. Before the book namespace existed, community books were hosted at Books/Foobar. This is where their resting place should be as well. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * A few books were indeed proper community endeavors with more than one significant editor, but the vast majority was not with only one editor making significant edits. For the former category I have no problems if they get refunded to Books/Foobar. --Trialpears (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Put them all there, there's no reason to treat pages in the namespace differently. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure exactly what you're suggesting: That all books be moved to Books/Foobar without deletion, with deletion but with refunds or moved to Books/archive/Foobar with refunds to Books/Foobar.
 * In my opinion just refunding to either userspace or Books/Foobar depending on what the requesting user requests makes the most sense. As for the reason I suggest Books/archive/Foobar is that would make Books/archive an obvious place to list all books moved in this process, give instructions on how refunds should be handled and a short explanation of how come books were deleted.
 * If it is that you don't think they should be deleted but just moved I don't necessarily disagree (I !voted neutral in the RfC and remain so) but I really don't want to prolong discussion more which would be necessary in case there are objections to the deletions per the close. --Trialpears (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That they should all be moved to Books/Foobar, and not User:Foobar/Barfoo. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This is all an irrelevant tangent. The only reason pages are being moved at all is that if they are deleted in-place, their deleted revisions will become permanently unavailable (even to admins) once the namespace is removed. The correct location for a book (whether it should be in userspace, Wikipedia namespace, or somewhere else) can be discussed if and when a specific book is restored. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 20:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The should all be preserved at Books/Foobar, not deleted to begin with. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No point in debating the outcome here, this isn't how you'll get it stalled or changed. Gonnym (talk) 08:43, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The consensus was to get rid of the book namespace, not delete all books therein. RFC closed with "Editors felt that it should still be possible to access books currently in this namespace." &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we can start by disabling all editing in book namespace (except for admin editing), title blacklist or otherwise. Currently, the title blacklist disables the creation and the saving of new books to book namespace. After, we can contact all book creators about the book namespace being deleted and help them move it to userspace, giving them six months to a year to have their book moved. If an editor does not claim their book, then it will be gone, presumably permanently. Books with multiple authors can be moved to Project: space. Anyway, this is how I would approach it. Aasim (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I think your proposal would make a lot of sense if this was the one time where something would be essentially non reversable and the books wouldn't be undeletable, but since the books will first be moved to Wikipedia space and then deleted refunds will work just as usual. Anyone visiting a book should notice the big red banner on top of the page explaining that books will be deleted. We can also clearly communicate what happend using Mediawiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book and no article text and give instructions on how to request refunds. Also worth noting that most edits in the book namespace currently are dab fixes, red link removal and userfication, so I don't see any reason to stop editing there. --Trialpears (talk) 11:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we can start by disabling all editing in book namespace (except for admin editing), title blacklist or otherwise. Currently, the title blacklist disables the creation and the saving of new books to book namespace. After, we can contact all book creators about the book namespace being deleted and help them move it to userspace, giving them six months to a year to have their book moved. If an editor does not claim their book, then it will be gone, presumably permanently. Books with multiple authors can be moved to Project: space. Anyway, this is how I would approach it. Aasim (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I think your proposal would make a lot of sense if this was the one time where something would be essentially non reversable and the books wouldn't be undeletable, but since the books will first be moved to Wikipedia space and then deleted refunds will work just as usual. Anyone visiting a book should notice the big red banner on top of the page explaining that books will be deleted. We can also clearly communicate what happend using Mediawiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book and no article text and give instructions on how to request refunds. Also worth noting that most edits in the book namespace currently are dab fixes, red link removal and userfication, so I don't see any reason to stop editing there. --Trialpears (talk) 11:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

So I've been away a few days and am just catching up on this, so forgive me if I get something wrong. It seems like there is consensus to delete pages in the Book: namespace, but in a such a way that deleted revisions are retrievable. It doesn't seem like pages have been deleted yet, so we're still in the planning phase, yes? If so I want to summarize what I think the plan going forward is and how to do it efficiently. The first two seem relatively simple to do by script, and given the consensus to have the revisions accessible in some future way, I believe we should not skip straight to disabling the namespace. The minutia of where to restore can be handled by the relevant admin when requests come in, and I don't think we need to figure that out right now. For books that are currently deleted, I agree that undeleting them would not be wise; we would open ourselves up to restoring BLP violations or other inappropriate content, and without much interest in them I don't believe we need to retain stably deleted content just for the sake of retaining revisions editors are unlikely to request. That said, it would be nice to establish a timeline for namespace deactivation and advertise it so that interested editors have time to request any pages they might wish to keep.Is there anything I'm missing? Have we coordinated volunteers for any of these tasks? — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Move all pages matching   to   without leaving a redirect
 * 2) Delete all subpages of Wikipedia:Books/archive
 * 3) Create a documentation page at Books/archive explaining the historical context, where titles hosting deleted book revisions can be found, and how to request undeletion if one wishes
 * 4) Disable the book namespace in the site configuration
 * , Trialpears currently has a BRFA open that’ll handle (1), and I believe they will then do (2) as a batch deletion. If nobody else has yet claimed (3) I’m happy to draft it. firefly  ( t · c ) 20:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Seems that the BRFA has been closed as approved though it has only run on the Education Program namespace so far. do you have an estimate on when you plan to expand to Books? — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * you've essentially said everything I was thinking but clearer, I don't believe you're missing anything major either. The one bot currently interacting with books has been disabled, but we should ensure nothing using the     parser function breaks and MediaWiki:Coll-community book prefix should be deleted along with the namespace. There are also a couple of categories and other things that should be cleaned up afterwards, all of which should be included at User:Trialpears/book related things but again nothing that actually influences the plan you outlined more than adding a point 5: Miscellaneous clean up.
 * I plan on doing everything necessary if noone wants to help out. Firefly just volunteered for 3 which I think sounds great, and I got the impression was perhaps interested in helping looking over documentation, backlinks and other miscellaneous parts as they did for the Education program namespace. For when I would say no earlier then a week from this discussion opened so probably Sunday if nothing here indicates that would be inappropriate. My opinion is that a big red banner on all books for a month is sufficient notification, I also plan on personally making sure Book refunds are handled quickly and smoothly. Ultimately though I'm not in a hurry and can wait if people think there's a benefit to doing so. --Trialpears (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As nothing have come up I plan on proceeding tonight. --Trialpears (talk) 10:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. We will then proceed with tagging for speedy deletion the thence empty Bookspace-related categories under criterion G6, housekeeping.  Best, UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Excellent, thanks. We will then proceed with tagging for speedy deletion the thence empty Bookspace-related categories under criterion G6, housekeeping.  Best, UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I am quite upset that as an active creator and user of multiple Wikipedia books I was not notified of this proposal until it became a fait accompli and the moves started appearing on my watchlist. I can re-host them under my user space, of course, but I have been using these as curated collections of readings for my university courses and this move will break (has already broken?) all of the links from all of my old course syllabi, as well as the links to them from my Wikipedia user page, and any off-site links that may well exist beyond my control. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you didn't get notified, but I think a reasonable attempt was made to reach all interested parties. The discussion was listed at WP:CENT for over a month, the discussion occured at our most active page for major proposals, Help talk:Books was notified as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia-Books including a ping to all project members and there's been a big red deletion banner on saved book which is used on literally over 99% of books, yours being in the tiny minority that don't. I'm quite happy though that the mystery of why Book:Fundamental Data Structures got significantly more views than any other page in the namespace with about 15 a day is now solved.
 * Your comment brings up quite a good point though: We haven't used watchlists to notify about this discussion and given that we now are moving all these pages generating watchlist entries it would be a good idea to give people time to see these and move their books if they so want. I'm thinking waiting another week between moves end and deletion starts would be a good idea. --Trialpears (talk) 21:47, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a reason why my saved books stopped using the saved book template, and therefore why I never saw any notifications that way: because, long before this proposal, it stopped being a useful thing to include on Wikipedia-books and instead turned into a big banner explaining why some external service for printing things that I never cared about in the first place wasn't working any more. Since that banner was not useful information for my books, I removed it. And I am still mystified why the fact that this external service going away was used as a justification to delete our internal space for keeping curated collections of articles. Why do they have to be printable to be useful? Also, I don't watch any of the VP pages; they are for the most part a firehose of uselessness. I expect that the same is true for other editors more interested in content than bureaucracy. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:55, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Your frustration is understandable and it's very unfortunate. I'm wondering though what concrete thing you want there to be done about it. I've stopped the bot while we have this discussion, but I don't feel much can be done. I guess you could ask for a review of the close at AN possibly reopening the discussion, but I don't believe there was anything wrong with the close nor the notifications given or any other procedural point. --Trialpears (talk) 22:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe that a process that did not make any attempt to notify the content creators, even of a book that you already knew was the most frequently accessed on the whole namespace, and bring in their point of view before the formulation of the RFC, is fundamentally broken. The whole RFC was pre-judged by people who don't use these books, without any input on who uses these books, what they use them for, and whether the existence of a third-party service has any relevance to their existence. The only reasonable outcome would be to throw out the entire RFC and start fresh, with proper notifications. But I don't expect the people invested in process and bureaucracy to do this and I don't think escalating to AN is likely to be anything but a waste of time and effort. As for stopping the bot moves until this discussion subsides: Why? So that others who might have seen the moves through their watchlist remain ignorant of it and don't bring their point of view to the discussion? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Just because I've seen other cases where people (quite reasonably) think it's inappropriate to run a bot while its activity is under discussion. Since you don't intend to take it to AN and are fine with the bot running I've restarted it again (and I was in fact contemplating how to deal with it when I saw your message). --Trialpears (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I too am surprised that you did not seek to directly inform either the creators or the main editors of the books. It's not like we're inactive. We're just not always looking at a book we created for others to use, perhaps initially created a decade ago for a set group of topics. As only existing templates were changed, not the books they were on, the impending change would presumably not show up on watchlists. As Book:Furry fandom was created by members of WP:FURRY (probably not an uncommon situation), I have moved it to WikiProject Furry/Book. I suggest that informing related WikiProjects might be beneficial due to the risk of creators who may be absent for more than a week. Perhaps a bot could do this based on project templates or categories on talk? In our case we had WP Furry on it resulting in Category:Book-Class furry articles being added; a subcategory of Category:Book-Class articles. GreenReaper (talk) 22:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact the whole process appears to be counter to Wikipedia policy (specifically, Deletion policy, which outlines methods for coming to consensus on the deletion of content, none of which were followed here). —David Eppstein (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean I could certainly notify the around 580 WikiProjects that have a Category:Book-Class articles (great category name) and the about 5000 accounts from a purely technical perspective. I do feel it is a bit excessive though. I'm not even sure if this could be called appropriate notification under the canvassing guideline with it likely being deemed spamming and possibly partisan.
 * For the deletion policy objection that feel like wikilawyering to me. The important part is that there's consensus for deletion. I could just as easily see objections to taking this via MfD since that is a less watched forum that would only require a week of discussion as well as MfD being illequipped to handle complex outcomes since almost all decisions there are just a binary delete or don't delete without significant prep work. --Trialpears (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking waiting another week between moves end and deletion starts would be a good idea. I think it is important to pause much longer than a week before deleting anything. Somebody mentioned 6 months. Perhaps that is excessive, but a single week is far too hasty — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure it could wait longer, but I really don't see much reason to. We've had notifications placed on top of essentially all books for over a month already and if they weren't noticed during that month I doubt many more would notice them if you give it another month. The reason I thought a weeks wait would be significantly beneficial was that everyone who have a book on their watchlist would see the move and possibly move it if so desired. My thought was that items older than a week were unlikely to show up on peoples watchlists and be checked, but given that it's possible to see things up to 30 days after the edit occurred I guess it's reasonable to keep it for that long. Any longer than that I have a hard time seeing will matter from a practical perspective. Refunds will be easily available with clear instructions. Does another 30 days hold time seem reasonable then? --Trialpears (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking waiting another week between moves end and deletion starts would be a good idea. I think it is important to pause much longer than a week before deleting anything. Somebody mentioned 6 months. Perhaps that is excessive, but a single week is far too hasty — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure it could wait longer, but I really don't see much reason to. We've had notifications placed on top of essentially all books for over a month already and if they weren't noticed during that month I doubt many more would notice them if you give it another month. The reason I thought a weeks wait would be significantly beneficial was that everyone who have a book on their watchlist would see the move and possibly move it if so desired. My thought was that items older than a week were unlikely to show up on peoples watchlists and be checked, but given that it's possible to see things up to 30 days after the edit occurred I guess it's reasonable to keep it for that long. Any longer than that I have a hard time seeing will matter from a practical perspective. Refunds will be easily available with clear instructions. Does another 30 days hold time seem reasonable then? --Trialpears (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I tried to userfy Books/archive/Malaysia by moving it to User:Chipmunkdavis/MalaysiaBook, but as a non-admin I cannot move "a title with a double-namespace prefix". Would someone be able to carry this out for me? CMD (talk) 02:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I just moved it and I'm not an administrator (unless a bureaucrat has gone rogue). Did you put an extra "User:" for your intended target? Sdrqaz (talk) 02:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I really couldn't say either way, but thanks to you and your rogue bureaucrat. If this is a me issue and not a technical, that's good news. CMD (talk) 02:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I was somewhat bold and created Book namespace deletion so that consistent information could be inserted into the various places that still talk about the Book namespace in the present tense. I will add a link to Books/archive as soon as that exists — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I created Books/archive; please feel free to edit. Best. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:11, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * added a link to the book archive — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks! also made a version of that page at User:Firefly/booksdraft. I took the liberty to combine your two versions. --Trialpears (talk) 13:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

All books have now been moved. The Book: and Book talk: namespaces are empty (except Book:A Novel) so I've filed  asking for the namespace to be removed. This will have no impact on userfying books at Books/archive from the Wikipedia namespace. --Trialpears (talk) 14:41, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
 * to help me and others plan, how long do you expect to wait until you proceed with the batch deletion of all the subpages of Books/archive? UnitedStatesian (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * My current plan is waiting a month to allow more time for userfying books before deletion. The deletion of the actual namespace I see no reason to delay as there's no content there. --Trialpears (talk) 14:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that sounds great.  Question: why did you recreate Book:A Novel after your move designed to save its history?  I'm worried its existence will hold up the Phab task and think you should delete it now, so the namespace is completely empty. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:59, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That was indeed brought up at phab. Since 	Urbanecm who will be implement this is a steward he will just delete it before deleting the namespace. --Trialpears (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * What should we do about MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book? Should we keep the blacklist entry, or should it be removed as the ns no longer exists? If it should be kept, then the wording of the message and the wording of the comment of this blacklist entry on MediaWiki:Titleblacklist should be changed. 54nd60x (talk) 05:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * honestly I'm not sure. On one hand the namespace doesn't exist anymore, but on the other it is still very unlikely that people want to edit a page with a Book: prefix and I can see people attempting to do so since it exist on other wikis. For the time being I've edited the message., do you have any thoughts as the editor who added the blacklist entry? --Trialpears (talk) 07:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * At the least we should have a cool-down period, we can live without article titles starting with "Book:*" for a little while, maybe 6 months or a year. — xaosflux  Talk 10:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, Template:No article text and MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book still need to be changed in some way for the following reasons. First, Talk:Book:Example and other pages beginning with "Book:" after the ns prefix (including e.g. MediaWiki:Book:Example as well) still shows the message when it's not supposed to, because for example, it creates a broken link to Talk:Wikipedia:Books/archive/Example when the first example is used. "Talk:Book:" or any other "Book:" after any namespace was never a namespace before. MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book doesn't show properly on Book talk:Example either, it doesn't link to the project book archive subpage. 54nd60x (talk) 10:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I misremembered the scribunto pattern limitations, they have limited zero-width assertions not none. It should now be fixed as well as enabled on book talk pages. Same goes for MediaWiki:Newarticletext. --Trialpears (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Book talk:$1 is still being rendered as Wikipedia:Books/archive/$1, but it should be Wikipedia talk:Books/archive/$1. Also, Book:Book: is showing the second "Book:" as "Wikipedia:Books/archive/" instead of just "Book:" 54nd60x (talk) 11:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * First part is intentional because I thought that would be the more useful location, but I can see both sides of that. We had no orphaned talk pages in the book namespace though. The Book:Book: issue is fixed. --Trialpears (talk) 11:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Is the noindex of Book namespace from search engines preventing us from finding the article? google:Book: A Novel only shows the former page title, I don't know if it has to do with this. 54nd60x (talk) 07:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe that's just because google hasn't re-crawled it after the move. Looking at the config change it removes indexing for the relevant namespace ids, not based on the url meaning it should be completely unaffected. --Trialpears (talk) 13:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to for planning and executing this plan in such detail. Must be worth at least a barnstar when all is complete! &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 04:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Tomorrow there has been a month since the move. I will probably begin deletions then, but I will also do my first traveling since the start of this over the next few days, so it is likely it won't be done for a couple days, especially when considering some of the related cleanup that can only really start after deletion. --Trialpears (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * All Wikipedia:Books/archive/ subpages have now been deleted. There is still some minor cleanup ongoing but all big things should now be done. --Trialpears (talk) 12:26, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:Book-Class articles and Category:Wikipedia books sub-categories still need to be deleted. Gonnym (talk) 12:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Would you please explain why you are blanking pages within user subpages? The move of some to userspace was explicitly in line with the community consensus. It might also be a good idea to notify users as a courtesy if you are blanking pages within their userspace. CMD (talk) 14:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see the templates are up for deletion. Does this mean the old talk pages must be deleted? If so it seems better to ask for them to be deleted instead of simply blanking them. CMD (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Before we delete and its subcats, we need to ensure that none of them can be populated by mistake - such as by somebody using book for an article about a book (it ). Is it best to tackle the individual custom class masks first, or amend  together with ? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've deleted Category:Wikipedia books and Category:Wikipedia books (community books with bugs) now and made sure there's no category pollution in Category:Book-Class articles. My plan for the assesment categories is to deal with the class masks first with Category:WikiProject_templates_using_the_book_class listing them all (I'll give it a day to populate) and then remove it from class mask and friends as well as deleting the categories. --Trialpears (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

How come Books/archive/Algorithms has not been deleted? Also, should the "do not archive" tag be changed to later after August 7? Because I think more time is needed to discuss the implementation of book (namespace) deletion. 54nd60x (talk) 01:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The article history shows that moved the book to user space on 2021-07-05 and moved it back to the archive yesterday (i.e. after the deletions) — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 06:34, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Was I not supposed to do that? Noticed the wipe occurred but someone else preserved a bunch of books, so thought moving it back was appropriate instead of just archiving it in my userspace. - Indefensible (talk) 06:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Eh, I would say it's fine. It's a clear request that it shouldn't be deleted and placed in a sensible place.
 * The assesment categories have been dealt with, thanks and  for the help!
 * There are still some documentation that should be updated and backlinks to deleted categories that should be checked. Books are still supported at class and query/54292 with links to the book namespace should be looked through. All of this I intend to deal with if no one else gets to it first.
 * Some other things that could be done but I feel is quite unecessary is nominating Book and User:WildBot/b01 for deletion and marking WikiProject Wikipedia-Books as defunct or historical instead of inactive. That could include deletion of User WP Wikipedia-Books, WikiProject Wikipedia-Books and Category:WikiProject Wikipedia-Books. I won't do any of these, but won't object if anyone else feel like it.
 * Is there anything I've forgotten here? --Trialpears (talk) 09:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would prefer the book-related pages you mentioned to either be deleted or marked as defunct or historical. 54nd60x (talk) 12:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

NavFrame removal from Common.css/js
This is a heads up for VPT: WP:NavFrame is now removed. It was long deprecated in favor of mw-collapsible. There are some 10k uses remaining, predominantly on user, user talk, and general talk page archives. If you want to migrate, there is a brief migration guide at WP:NavFrame. Any remaining uses will degrade gracefully to display the entirety of the content (without effort to migrate). Izno (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Can someone generate a list of closing ref tags missing spaces before letters afterwards?
Very often, a closing ref tag with a letter directly after it is an error (e.g., The song was a hit in London, Moscow, and Buffalo., which would look to the reader like The song was a hit in London,Moscow,and Buffalo.). Likely an easy fix, but this sort of formatting is hard to search. BD2412 T 05:52, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @BD2412 search  &#8213;  Qwerfjkl  talk  07:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that does seem to do it. BD2412  T 18:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Pages that have been changed since you last visited them are shown in bold with a green marker - failing for Wikipedia namespace
On my watchlist "Pages that have been changed since you last visited them are shown in bold with a green marker", except that pages in Wikipedia namespace are not. Seems to have started in the last hourish. DuncanHill (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, showed a green marker on my watchlist, so . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:16, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems to have righted itself now. DuncanHill (talk) 21:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Wrong links to World Athletics
Links to World Athletics biographies, using the IAAF template, doesn't seem to work. Is anyone looking into it? See e.g. Hsieh Hsi-en and Yasmeen Al-Dabbagh. Ssu (talk) 21:41, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Ssu: The URLs used by the site seem to have changed. World Athletics generates a URL of the form, which leads to a 502. It works when you replace the forward slash in front of the parameter with a question mark like this: . I'll file an edit request at Template talk:World Athletics. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 21:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Greit, thanks! Ssu (talk) 09:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * :) firefly  ( t · c ) 09:48, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

No map pin
Hello, has anyone got any thoughts on what the problem is with Bonus Arena, where the map pin in the infobox is not showing. It shows when you select full screen for the map or when you are in preview. Keith D (talk) 12:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Script not running
Hi, When i try to run the MOS:DATEFORMAT script in mobile as a desktop mode it cannot run. Why this happen? Please tell me.Fade258 (talk) 12:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You are using the deprecated importScript method which is not available on mobile. Adding JavaScript to Wiki Pages looks up to date. Hope it helps! Jdlrobson (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:58, 8 August 2021
 * , I use this script importScript('User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates.js'); // User:Ohconfucius/script/MOSNUM dates.js. Please sign your post by using 4 tidles  .Fade258 (talk) 15:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, and Jdlrobson is confirming that does not work on the mobile domain. You may reinstall the script and it may work on mobile with lusc. I will not guarantee that it will work because I have not reviewed the code to see if Ohc has any other deprecated function calls. --Izno (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi, Hope you are safe. When i try to run the MOS:DATEFORMAT script in mobile on desktop mode it can't run. When i try to run that script as the error message appears i.e Javascript error:- Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'wpTextbox1' of undefined. Please help me. Thank you ! Fade258 (talk) 07:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * see above, please do not open new sections on the same topic. — xaosflux  Talk 10:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Er, what exact URL are you using to try to run it? The mobile domain also uses VisualEditor (wikitext mode), which has a different interaction with scripts than the 2010 wikitext box and earlier. That error looks like it would be caused by that different interaction. For that one you're going to need to speak with the script author. Izno (talk) 13:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Template:Medals table
Is it possible for Medals table (example 2020 Summer Olympics medal table) to sort by first click from largest medal? Sorting first click by smallest number is only useful at rank number here. Hddty (talk) 15:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * not without some ugly local hacks. The sort order for the sortable class is 'initial, ascending, descending'.  I understand you would like at least a parameter to change that to 'initial, descending, ascending'.  Currently, even a selection of these can not be defaulted and would require software development as noted in T33332.  As that would require work on the sorting logic, it may be a place to also visit this ask; if not you can open a new feature request for table sorting. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-32
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Problems
 * You can read but not edit 17 wikis for a few minutes on 10 August. This is planned at 05:00 UTC. This is because of work on the database.

Changes later this week
 * The Wikimania Hackathon will take place remotely on 13 August, starting at 5:00 UTC, for 24 hours. You can participate in many ways. You can still propose projects and sessions.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Octicons-tools.svg The old CSS <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> will not be supported after 12 August. Instead, templates and pages should use <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> . Please help to replace any existing uses on your wiki. There are global-search links available at T287962.

Future changes
 * The Wikipedia Library is a place for Wikipedia editors to get access to sources. There is an extension which has a new function to tell users when they can take part in it. It will use notifications. It will start pinging the first users in September. It will ping more users later.
 * Octicons-tools.svg Vue.js will be the JavaScript framework for MediaWiki in the future.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

16:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Menu font tinification
Sometime recently (last Thursday?), the font size of second level menus got smaller. I really wish that the 30-somethings with perfect eyesight who make these changes would check with the 60-somethings about whether it's still readable before pushing changes like this. Harumph. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What, you mean there are menus?? "I don't believe it!" Martinevans123 (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I saw this change show up on Discord I think. There may/not be a task for it already? Izno (talk) 22:54, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You should be able to fix the size of the menu items using the CSS:
 * This might be more of an issue with MoreMenu rather than Vector since Vector doesn't have any second-level menus built-in from what I can tell. In that case, the fix would have to be added to MediaWiki:Gadget-MoreMenu.js via the GitHub repo. MusikAnimal, what do you think? – Brandon XLF  (talk) 07:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I fixed your MM link. DMacks (talk) 07:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I fixed your MM link. DMacks (talk) 07:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I noticed this the other day also, affecting Easyblock on Legacy Vector. Each submenu gets progressively smaller. This is not part of the MoreMenu set (a gadget I have not enabled). The standard menu-items are 13px, Easyblock's 'Block' menu-entry and its main menu (the second-level visible) are 10.5625px and the third-level visible is 8.58203px. DMacks (talk) 07:45, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like this is related to T191021 (702456) and T287052 (705897). Apparently  was applied to   and now it's applied to   in Legacy Vector, causing it to be applied recursively. Nardog (talk) 08:27, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and opened T288336 since the issues seems to be caused by a small mistake in some of Vector's CSS. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 09:06, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like this is going to be a won't fix on the Vector side, so I have patched MoreMenu. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  18:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Div class navframe collapsed
Hello! On my user page, in a section called "Grateful Dead", is a wikitable. In the table are some collapsible subtables. Each subtable is preceded with. So when viewing the table, it's necessary to click Show to expand each subtable. I set this up long ago. But now it's broken, in the sense that the subtables are not collapsed, or collapsable. I'm rather sure this was working until some time in the last few days. Does anyone know why this stopped working? I'm using a PC with Windows 10 and I generally use Firefox, but the formerly collapsed and expandable subtables are also broken in Chrome and Edge. Thanks. — Mudwater (Talk) 22:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)


 * See further up this page. --Trialpears (talk) 22:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I see! Thanks!  — Mudwater (Talk) 22:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Photos in article previews are slightly cropped (preview doesn't fit in the window in MS Edge) (Update: and Mozilla Firefox)
This has happened for months so far on my computer but anyways, I'll list my current system configuration. I have screenshots (in case I couldn't clearly explain the problem) but I don't know where to upload them (Commons or Wikipedia?). I guess that an option to show the article preview to the left or right of the link (if the window is too short which is probably the problem here) can solve this.
 * OS: Windows 10 21H1 19043.1110
 * Edge version: 92.0.902.62 (Official build) (64-bit), running maximised
 * Screen (I think the issue is the screen size): 15.6 inch, 1366*768

Given that this has been going on for months, I thought that someone else woud have reported this but I couldn't find any such reports (but then again I have a history of unknowingly making discussions for things that have already been discussed before (on video game forums, even after checking to make sure I am not making a duplicate discussion) so I may be wrong to assume that I'm the first person to report this) Tube·of·Light 14:38, 2 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You can report this on WP:Phabricator. It has single-signon with WMF signon. Izno (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I could but I don't want to give my email for a service I'll be rarely using (especially not at my current age). Besides, where should I upload the screenshots? Tube·of·Light 15:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Tube of Light See Screenshots of Wikipedia.&#8213; Qwerfjkl talk  15:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't need to provide your email, the point is that it's the same signon as your WMF signon. Izno (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This has cropped (see what I did there?) up several times in different questions recently, so I started a gallery of examples that I came across - see User:Verbarson/cropping. The Page Previews feature was extensively discussed, tested and documented:
 * Mediawikiwiki:mw:Page Previews
 * Mediawikiwiki:mw:Page Previews/Functionality
 * An overview over all related technical documentation
 * However, I have yet to find any discussion or documentation of the process that re-sizes a selected image to fit the preview. Can anyone point us to that? --Verbarson (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think we are talking about different issues. I have attached screenshots for my issue below. Tube·of·Light 05:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Tube·of·Light 05:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging again in case the last ping didn't work. . Tube·of·Light 07:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I saw the ping here but there's not much I can do here. The issue is well understood from technical point of view. The issue here is that there is no space to show the preview at this screen resolution. The preview must point to the link.
 * The two proposed solutions are either to make it appear differently which is a huge undertaking or to disable the feature entirely on these resolutions which could be really disuptive to end users. Until we can find time to do the former the status quo is likely to be the default. There are unfortunately many more issues that are far more serious that we need to get to first. Jdlrobson (talk) 14:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Side note: Changing the priority on a Phab task has no effect on getting the work done.  If the team uses those priorities, they usually mean something like:
 * Unbreak now: We've stopped work on everything else to fix this.
 * High: I'm working on this now.
 * Medium: This is next in my list.
 * Low: I'll get to this some day.
 * Lowest: My team will never do this, but patches are welcome from others.
 * In other words, this is supposed to tell you what the devs' plans already are, and not to tell them what their plans ought to be. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (since it's been a while since I beat this dead horse) - would be nice if there was actually an "incident" and "problem" tracking system, and not just a task/resolution tracking system... and no, not a wiki-text page like this one. Suppose this is still a problem of not getting a pile of volunteers who want to be the helpdesk? Capturing urgency and impact of a reporter to calculate the priority of the report is generally useful, and then if the only people that can work on it decide their priority doesn't match the requesters priority, the gap can be reviewed. —  xaosflux  Talk 19:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Understood. I suppose this will be fixed when you all get the time to. Anyways, thanks, and ! Tube·of·Light 03:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Line spacing in modern skin
I don't know if this is recent or I'm only just noticing it but the line spacing in modern skin is being affected by superscripted text e.g. ref numbers. If it's a local issue what can I add to me modern.css file to make all line spacing consistent? Nthep (talk) 11:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)


 * not sure if it is new, but it's an issue that used to exist in Vector and monobook and was fixed there long ago. It was fixed by setting line-height on those elements to 1. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In the skin default it looks like #content line height is set to 1.5em. Setting it in my modern.css to 1.6 (not em) seems to give me a nicely equi-spaced block of text. Nthep (talk) 15:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Nthep, do you have a minimum font size seet in that browser? In some of my browsers, I have a minimum font size that is slightly smaller than the normal/unzoomed Wikipedia article font size, which means it is slightly bigger than the normal Wikipedia superscript font size.  The net effect is that the superscript numbers seem weirdly large in those browsers. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's Firefox and text size is set to 100%. Nthep (talk) 20:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @TheDJ now I've properly understood which elements you were referring to, yes setting  or even setting it to zero does the trick. Nthep (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

PHP wiki parser
Is there a PHP parser that is comparable to Python mwparserfromhell? -- DaxServer (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * See Alternative parsers. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's my take on wiki-parsing: use Parsoid. It's big, confusing, and difficult to use.  But, it's the only one that has a "Yes" in the "Complete implementation" column of the cited table.  I also use mwparserfromhell in another project which predates getting my head around parsoid.  As the table says, it is an "almost" complete implementation.  Every once in a while, I find something it fails to parse correctly.  That's a real pain.  If you're starting from scratch, I really recommend you go with the gold standard. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Blocking problem
I can't block Special:contributions/41.254.64.27. I get an error message saying the IP is already blocked (in pretty colors of red and blue). I am trying to block the IP for 72 hours for block evasion ( 41.254.64.27 (talk • contribs) is already blocked (block log • unblock) . . This happened once before not that long ago, and I think it was for an IP in the same range. The last time I kept doing it repeatedly until it worked. I've tried several times this time around, but I'd really like to know what gives.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I get the same result ("41.254.64.27 (talk • contribs) is already blocked (block log • unblock)"), but when I click on the block log link, there's nothing there. Maybe this is a Autoblock? -- RoySmith (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ there was an autoblock overlapping. — xaosflux  Talk 23:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If there was an autoblock, how come the IP was able to edit? And why can't the system give me an accurate error message, or at least more complete? I must confess that autoblocks drive me crazy.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I figured it out. I blocked a named user before blocking the IP (same person). It was my block that caused the autoblock, and it also explains why the IP was able to edit because their edits happened before my block of the named user. So, if this same scenario happens again (and I remember), I should block the IP first. Notwithstanding all that, the system could still give a better error message.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree the error message should be more clear. You should open a phab ticket on that.  If you don't have phab access, I can do that for you. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't know if I have phab access, but even if I do, I'm certain you'd do a better job than I would. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 23:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I run into this often enough with CU blocks, when I want to place a harder or longer block on an IP than the autoblock does. I get around that by unblocking and then blocking manually. It's a bit irritating--you can easily change a "regular" block, but not these ones. Drmies (talk) 17:07, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikilink conflict
Please see Johannes Schott (or Martin Schott). I understand what's going on--the wikilink for the book conflicts with the URL, which also takes "title" to hang on to. Is there way to fix it, so I can have my cake and eat it too? Drmies (talk) 17:08, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Try chapter-url as in  to get this. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 17:32, 11 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks, User:JohnFromPinckney--and I see that fixed the articles--thanks! Drmies (talk) 20:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Can templates search an article's category?
Based on the discussion here, I'm interested in sandbox testing behavior in which Talk header modifies its behavior on pages categorized in Category:All WikiProject Medicine articles. Is there any template/module If in category that can check whether or not a page is in a category and do something different based on it? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 19:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Templates do not have access to category membership. There is an extension that provides that access, though I have a guess that it would be considered too expensive for Wikimedia or specifically English Wikipedia. Izno (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm, what about searching for the presence of a template (i.e. WikiProject Medicine) then? Get parameter seems to have found a way to do something similar. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You're looking for find page text * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 21:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks; that appears to work! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:31, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Avoid pixel size forcing in multiple image templates
Repeating this section here, as it was archived at the idea lab despite still being a real problem. At a recent FAC it was brought up that multiple image templates, which are widely used on Wikipedia, should be avoided because they require that you force a certain pixel size, which is problematic on smaller screens. Is it technically possible to add something like the "upright" parameter that are already used on single images, which scales images relative to particular screens instead? Otherwise it will be hard to use the multiple image templates for articles meant for promotion. Same goes for galleries which, despite being discouraged in general, are widely used. FunkMonk (talk) 18:30, 11 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Eh… FAC sets some weird standards I’d say…. The whole idea of upright as a requirement is pretty bonkers to me as a developer. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:07, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And "galleries ... being discouraged in general" is a complete myth - see WP:GALLERY. Johnbod (talk) 19:12, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Galleries are de facto discouraged because a lot of FAC reviewers oppose their use, so this would be a way to avoid one argument they may bring up. "Upright" is just a leftover name apparently, what it actually does is scale the image relative to the screen used. So it's useful, it could just need another name. A "scale relative to screen" function could be very useful for multiple images, as it will prevent discouragement of such templates on the basis that they force pixel size. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Nonsense - very few FAC reviewers oppose their appropriate use, & the majority of FAs on visual subjects have had them for years. An exception is User:Buidhe, who seems hostile to most images, but "a lot of FAC reviewers" take issue with him. If I see anyone repeating these hoary old myths, I certainly call them out. Personally I strongly dislike multiple images, & have often said so. A mini-gallery is nearly always greatly preferable. Not using multiple images is the best way to solve your problem. Johnbod (talk) 14:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * “what it actually does is scale the image relative to the screen used.” No it doesn’t. It scales it relative to the thumb size ppl have configured in their preferences. It’s literally to take a very limited set of registered users into account. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:00, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In any case (the exact mechanisms are irrelevant), the point is that these templates are in wide use, so to make them as useful as the regular image templates across devices and screens, it would be helpful if they had the same parameter for relative scaling. I have no idea why there would be any resistance to this improvement. FunkMonk (talk) 09:45, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Remove footnotes from a copy?
I know websites have the ability to add text to the selection when you copy. For example, I remember selecting text from a newspaper, and when I pasted, they'd added a "For more, see [website]" to it. Highly annoying. However, it would be lovely if we had the option, maybe in the theme settings, to be able to copy text without the [footnote] links? Those are never, ever useful in a copy/paste context, since the actual link is removed along the way. For example,


 * On August 4, 2014, James Brady died. As Hinckley had critically wounded Brady in 1981, the death was ruled a homicide.[34] Hinckley did not face charges as a result of Brady's death because he had been found not guilty of the original crime by reason of insanity.[35] In addition, since Brady's death occurred more than 33 years after the shooting, prosecution of Hinckley was barred under the year and a day law in effect in the District of Columbia at the time of the shooting.[36]

There are three footnotes in that copy, and they are all useless. They do nothing more but to make the text harder to read, and as a signifier that it came from Wikipedia.

Would it be possible to have the option at least to prune all reference/footnote tags from a copy? Just the [##] part, which is useless in a copy anyway. I can imagine far more people would want those copied than not. I figure there's Javascript that I could write for me, but this seems like it would be useful for all. --Golbez (talk) 20:46, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You could simply use the CSS :
 * I also think that this CSS should be added for everyone as copying reference markers without the reference is useless. There seems to already be a phab ticket for this T284607. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I also think that this CSS should be added for everyone as copying reference markers without the reference is useless. There seems to already be a phab ticket for this T284607. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

modern skin on Commons
I needed to make some changes to my global preferences but when I logged into Commons my skin had changed to Vector, and Modern, my preferred skin, no longer appears to be an option on Commons. Is there a way to install it for myself? Nthep (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've opened T288691 - this is not commonswiki specific, it is all WMF wikis. — xaosflux  Talk 23:12, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Modern was actually removed from skin options in the past week or two. Legacy users on specific wikis are grandfathered in but once you select another skin you will be unable to access it. See phab:T287616. Izno (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like this has been deprecated - your're going to have to learn to love a new skin, see T287616. — xaosflux  Talk 23:14, 11 August 2021 (UTC)


 * you can hack this in using this link. — xaosflux  Talk 23:16, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux thanks for that. Nice of the dev team to make changes like that without telling anyone, let alone consulting first. Nthep (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You're using a basically unsupported skin... you're lucky it's just hidden TBH. :/ Izno (talk) 01:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * not everyone loves  like you  ;) —  xaosflux  Talk 01:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Psh, I'm . Izno (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not into these skins with so much whitespace regardless of whether that is considered "the proper way". I also don't like the extra click needed to get through to watchlist, contributions etc that these skins introduce. Nthep (talk) 09:40, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * On that last point, I really advise ppl to learn the keyboard shortcuts. Its way faster than clicking in any skin. Once you've learned them, you'll never go back. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:22, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 *  :-o  Wikipedia has keyboard shortcuts? Who knew? (Well, you did, and I see the page has 418 watchers, but I'm the important one here, and I didn't know.) Thanks for revealing this huge secret, TheDJ. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 22:56, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, yes. If you hover over links, a tooltip is shown; if there is a keyboard shortcut for that link, this is also shown in the tooltip. For example, the "Main page" link in the left margin has a tooltip of "Visit the main page [Alt+Shift+z]". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Related: WT:Skin. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

CSS not working
Well, it's Thursday, and I dunno if that's the reason, but a bunch of my CSS stopped working. I'm using MonoBook. Among the things from my common.css (my only CSS file) that no longer work: li#pt-logout {display:none;} li#pt-betafeatures {display:none;} li#pt-sandbox {display: none;} li#ca-TransPopsId {display: none;} li#friendly-shared {display:none;} li#friendly-talkback {display:none;} li#tw-unlink {display:none;} li#tw-since {display:none;} li#tw-sincemine {display:none;} li#tw-curdiff {display:none;} That's not a definitive list, but probably enough to provide an idea of the issue. M AN d ARAX •  XAЯA b ИA M  00:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mandarax: Yep, I suspect that's a Thursday change. I think the CSS is getting overridden by new elements with higher specificity, so adding a id parent node or something like that should work.  and   were ones that worked for me. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 00:32, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That fixed most of it. Thank you very much, Writ Keeper!One thing I can't figure out how to patch – code to squeeze tabs closer together:  M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  01:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Try something like, adjusting the 0.1 up and down as desired. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 01:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks again! Your speedy helpfulness is greatly appreciated. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  02:51, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Responsive monobook change?
Has there been any change to the responsive monobook skin (the one you get if you make your browser window narrow, or on my phone in "desktop" mode)? The notifications icons now overlay the "user tools" button in the top right in a way that makes it very difficult to click the "user tools". In particular, my fingers are almost too fat to find my watchlist on my phone now. Is this a recent change or am I getting old? And is there some CSS magic to fix this? —Kusma (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * This is likely due to recent work. I would recommend filing a task. Izno (talk) 16:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I found T288681, but some of the comments there seem to be from users not familiar with responsive monobook. —Kusma (talk) 16:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Kusma: if you're still looking for a CSS hack in the meantime, try this:

It's not perfect--the search bar butts up against the menu button a little bit--but hopefully it should be a bit more usable. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 18:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hrm, does mess up the notifications dropdown though. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 18:59, 13 August 2021 (UTC) Wait, no it doesn't, it looks like it does that even before any changes. Sheesh. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 19:08, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Writ Keeper, I'll try this as a stopgap (looks great). Glad that you can also confirm that the notifications dropdown is weird, I was worried it might be my settings (but removing this, which I use to understand crosswiki pings, didn't help). Can you make a more coherent report at the phab than what I said? —Kusma (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Kusma: I ended up filing a new Phab ticket for it: T288871. In the meantime, I made a Javascript hack that should return the notifications list to some sort of sanity: User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/monobookEchoFix.js. Install to your monobook.js page (or common.js if you prefer), as usual. It is *definitely* a hack, though; I don't think it will break anything, but it's definitely inefficient, so here's hoping the original bug gets fixed soon. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 23:38, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (thumbs-up). Thank you, both for the hack and for the report! Let's hope these issues do get fixed (and that responsive monobook doesn't stop being maintained because it is extra work). —Kusma (talk) 06:31, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Searching for template parameters
How do you search for template parameters? For example, you want to search for

all used of  within foo, with foo having the parameters on individual lines. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  17:00, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Bug report in my own contribs list
I found abnormal behavior in Special:Contribs/LaundryPizza03 after I carried out a massive delsort onto 75 indexes for a bulk AfD covering various lists about 91 countries and territories. Beginning with the newest contribs (at time of writing) and query of 50 per page: Is this bug known? –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 07:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Hit "older 50", which will skip part of the bulk delsort.
 * 2) You will need to hit "newer 50" twice to get to the newest contribs, which goes through the bulk delsort and ends on a truncated list of just the 19 latest contribs, including the filing of this report.
 * I think this is a consequence of having two (or more) actions with the same timestamp - the older 50 thing looks at the timestamp of the entry at the bottom, and searches for rows having a timestamp earlier than that. Timestamps are recorded to whole seconds, consequently there can be many entries with the same timestamp. It would be better if the revision ID were used, since those are not only unique, but their values are progressive integers. I don't know if there's a phab: ticket for that, but it would require a massive change to implement. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:49, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed. There is an extreme example of this sort of bug in action in these contribs of Conversion script; compare the same contribs page set to a limit of 500 and what happens when you hit "older 50" on my first link. (I didn't think about this but this is a rather unusual problem with the new 500-contribs limit in Special:Contributions). In this case sorting by revision ID number would produce interesting results because those revision ID numbers are in a weird order, but it'd be better than the current situation. I've found a relevant Phabricator task and added it to the top of this message. Graham 87 09:01, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

This sounded familiar; sure enough, I did report basically the same issue with my contributions list one time. Home Lander (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Template:aan issue at Four color theorem talk page
The template Aan at Talk:Four color theorem/Archive 1 through Archive_4 seems to skip the Archive_4 subpage and it shows Archive 1 through 3 only. Purging didn't seem to help. What else can I do to see Archive_4 link there? --CiaPan (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks fine to me. I see a link to Archive 4, and the link works. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:48, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ough, silly me! The fourth link was hiding past the right edge of my mobile's screen and, due to the absence of a horizontal scroll bar, I just didn't think I could scroll the page to look there. Thank you,, for directing me towards the answer. :D --CiaPan (talk) 19:16, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Watchlist spacing in monobook
So biting the bullet that Modern may be difficult to maintain now that the dev team have decided to deprecate it, I'm experimenting with Monobook but I can't work out how to increase the line spacing in the watchlist. It appears the default is 1.4em and I thought

would work but it doesn't or at least doesn't appear to. Suggestions please. Nthep (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey, Nthep, the same change actually introduced a rule to Monobook that overrides the rule you have; see the above thread . Try a selector with higher specificity, like HTH, Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 15:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Writ Keeper Thanks. Incidentally the editor tells me the syntax is overqualified and suggests   which does seem to work. Nthep (talk) 15:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Haha, fair enough; I included the element types more out of habit than anything else. I'm sure it's not best practice, but if it works, it works. :) Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 15:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Basically ignore it when the editor says it's over-qualified. It is making a guess based on a different use environment which assumes it has access to more of the CSS you're trying to override. Izno (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For any one given page, an element's ID (if present) the ID for each element is supposed to be unique, so the element type isn't needed. In theory different pages on the same site might use the same ID in different ways such that specifying the element type is helpful to distinguish between them when using the same style sheet for all pages. I assume though in this case, the MediaWiki software is using "globalWrapper" the same way across pages. isaacl (talk) 21:06, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You're right, for sure. Much like putting opening curly braces on a new line, it's a habit that every employer I've ever had has tried to break--mostly unsuccessfully. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 02:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Help
Hi Village pump participants, When i try to edit any article on Wikipedia by mobile at desktop mode at that time one notice appears i.e You are using a browser which is not officially supported by this editor. Please tell me how to solve this problem. Fade258 (talk) 15:45, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Fade258: What browser are you using? What happens if you try a different browser? Can you provide a screenshot? Always include details like these when asking for help with technical issues, because otherwise the only thing anybody can tell you is "I dunno, works for me". – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 20:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , I use google chrome.Fade258 (talk) 00:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Which version on which device, and with the standard source editor, VisualEditor, or something else? PrimeHunter (talk) 01:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , My device name is Redmi 9T of Android version 10 and the Google Chrome version is 92.0.4515.131.Fade258 (talk) 05:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The message is MediaWiki:Visualeditor-browserwarning. Do you actually want to use VisualEditor? You have no recent edits with it. Special:Preferences has the option "Temporarily disable the visual editor while it is in beta". PrimeHunter (talk) 06:59, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , Yes, I want to use it.Fade258 (talk) 07:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, I managed to reproduce it. You can stop the warning from appearing by ticking the "Desktop" box in the browser menu, but you could also just ignore it. I don't recommend you try to edit using desktop VE on your phone – judging from my very limited attempts, it doesn't seem to work very well –, but the warning isn't the limiting factor. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 11:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

delete-redirect userright
At a current discussion at WP:AE, it was discussed whether the ability to delete a single-revision redirect by overwriting was a use of extended permission. According to User access levels (and Page mover/delete-redirect where it was granted to page movers), the userright is restricted to admins and page-movers, however it is easy to find examples of users who are neither having the ability to do this (this user for example only has extended-confirmed, rollbacker and PCR). It's not really important as regards the AE report now, but does anyone know exactly who has access to delete-redirect? Black Kite (talk) 13:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I answered this at AE, BK. PMs have access to delete-redirect, but it's only required if you're moving over a page that points to a different target. If the page you're moving over is a single-redirect page that points back to the page you're moving from, then any confirmed editor can do the move. If however the page is multiple revisions, then regardless of where it points, an admin is needed to G6 it manually. For single revision pages, the G6 is done automatically by the software. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Aye, the kind of move discussed here (first from A to B and leaving A a redirect to B; then from B to A and overwriting A in the process) is essentially a revert and is something anyone can do. I remember doing such reverts when I wasn't an admin. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:12, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Red links seem brighter
Hi, I don't know if my eyes are deceiving me but for red links the red now seems brighter than what it used to be ?, Or is it really just my eyes ?, Thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 15:52, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * See T288739. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 17:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah thank you 192.76.8.91 much obliged, Good to know my eyes weren't playing tricks on me! :-), Many thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 17:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, they're definitely brighter in MonoBook too,  . And, it's Thursday. The colour for visited red links,    doesn't seem to have changed. The orange colour of "active" links seems brighter. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In case anyone is wondering, the old colour was  . This CSS snippet should restore it: a.new {color: #ba0000 !important;}  <span style="font-family:Garamond,Palatino,serif;font-size:115%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(red,red,red,blue,blue,blue,blue);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent">Daß Wölf 06:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Just noticed this thread. Has this global change been discussed in VP before? I've been active in Chinese Wikipedia (zhwiki) and given that the default font there has a lighter weight than that of the default font here, the new brighter red is making my eyes uncomfortable. Tiouraren (talk) 14:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Lua help with find sources module
Myself and a few others are developing Template:Newspaper of record so that Find sources will be able to display an appropriate newspaper of record based on an article's location (determined via Wikidata) rather than only the NYT, as is currently the case. It's currently mostly working, based on the change at Module:Find sources/templates/Find sources/sandbox (see testcase). However, for articles that do not have an associated country on Wikidata, they should default to display nothing, and that's currently causing an error. Would anyone be able to help figure out a way to get around this issue? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:52, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like a meaningful error message to me so why would you want to get around it? It seems to be saying that   is nil or empty string so if that is the case, shouldn't you be providing   or at least setting a default, or if this is an expected condition, a prettier or more user-meaningful output?
 * And why so many separate little submodules? Is that really necessary?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Trappist the monk, yes, it is meaningful in that it's reflecting a real error—when Newspaper of record returns nothing, Module:Find sources/templates/Find sources/sandbox breaks, because it can't handle a blank input. By "get around it", I mean that I want to change the code so that the module can handle blank input, or the template gives input the module can handle. The end result I'm seeking is that, for countries without a listed newspaper of record, they just shouldn't display any newspaper for Find sources.
 * Regarding why so many submodules, that's just following the way that set up the find sources modules to work. &#123;{u&#124;  Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 04:24, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, I designed the submodule scheme like that so that editors can add new links and new template configurations without having to make protected edit requests. It would have probably been easier to put all the configuration into one or two modules, but that way all the config modules would probably end up being protected, which would make it harder for non-template-editors to contribute. These days I might do things differently, but there is definitely something to be said for making the module more accessible to editors with less permissions. — <span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 13:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I changed the sandbox so that the newspaper of record is only added if newspaper of record returns a non-blank string. It's hacky, but it works. — <span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 13:41, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mr. Stradivarius, yay, thanks for the help! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 15:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mr. Stradivarius, yay, thanks for the help! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 15:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

In tables, tags with | don't work and cause lint errors
Please see User:Anomalocaris/sandbox/Lint Test and explain why this markup causes stripped tag lint errors and display issues as described in the comments. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Template expansion is processed before the table markup, so it sees all those as if you had used  and therefore tries to interpret the part before as HTML attributes. Note a lot depends on that behavior, so it's unlikely to ever be changed. If you need a literal , try   or pipe instead. Anomie⚔ 10:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Anomie: Thank you for the explanation! —Anomalocaris (talk) 19:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

mw-datatable
Since 2016 Help:Table  is recommending that class without any limitation. Public usage of that class passed away deliberately now without prior discussion anywhere nor global announcement; knowing that this class is widely used. Greetings --PerfektesChaos (talk) 09:06, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * mw:Help:Tables is pointing to this page for further reading.
 * The latter one is a kind of global recommendation.
 * 43 templates are using that here, as reported, and various other pages directly.
 * The effect makes it easier for people without extraordinary mental capabilities to read rows in large data tables.
 * Please see T287997 for details.
 * See also Village pump (technical)/Archive 191. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-33
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * You can add language links in the sidebar in the new Vector skin again. You do this by connecting the page to a Wikidata item. The new Vector skin has moved the language links but the new language selector cannot add language links yet.

Problems
 * There was a problem on wikis which use the Translate extension. Translations were not updated or were replaced with the English text. The problems have been fixed.

Changes later this week
 * A revision tag will soon be added to edits that add links to disambiguation pages. This is because these links are usually added by accident. The tag will allow editors to easily find the broken links and fix them. If your wiki does not like this feature, it can be hidden.
 * Would you like to help improve the information about tools? Would you like to attend or help organize a small virtual meetup for your community to discuss the list of tools? Please get in touch on the Toolhub Quality Signal Sessions talk page. We are also looking for feedback from tool maintainers on some specific questions.
 * In the past, edits to any page in your user talk space ignored your mute list, e.g. sub-pages. Starting this week, this is only true for edits to your talk page.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

19:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Google books reference generator down?
I've been using this useful gadget for quite a while, but today I've gotten nothing but server errors. Is this just me? Vanamonde (Talk) 10:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed it was down on Sunday, so doing Gbook refs manually. It is 500 error so server side. Any chance of getting fixed?   scope_creep Talk  19:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The original maintainer appears to be Apoc2400, who hasn't edited in 4 months. They might still fix it though – who knows? – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 23:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikifunctions
What will be the URL for the upcoming Wikifunctions website? When is it expected to be completed? 54nd60x (talk) 05:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Why do you expect the answer to that question to be here? Izno (talk) 06:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't necessarily expect it to be here, but I don't know where to ask. 54nd60x (talk) 09:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Try Talk:Wikifunctions or meta:Talk:Abstract Wikipedia? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Easier way to see a page's move history?
(reposted from the help desk)

I've been using the move log tool to examine a page's move history, but it's cumbersome because you have to enter the former name of the page rather than the current name (so you have to dig through the page's history to find its original name), and it only shows one entry at a time. suggested checking the edit history of the article's talk page, but this method is still far from ideal. Is there anywhere I can see an article's entire move history in one place? Rublov (talk) 16:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've made a tool for this precise task: User:Nardog/MoveHistory. It may not be perfect but it gets the job done most of the time. Nardog (talk) 11:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Amazing. Thank you! Rublov (talk) 12:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

mw_datatable not working
I noticed it has stopped working, on both edge and firefox and ie. Is it deprecated, what should be done to pages using it? I am specifically asking for List of words ending in ology.  Nik ol ai h ☎️📖 06:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is deprecated. Switch to 'wikitable'. Izno (talk) 06:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was not deprecated, just removed a week or so ago. I get the feeling that it is gone for good, but see T287997 for the ongoing debate — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not  but , and see  above. == Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 14:26, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

two new template proposals: publicradiofan program and publicradiofan station
Public Radio Fan is a worldwide listing of public radio programs and public radio stations, and is similar in access structure to IMDb, but curated and not crowd-sourced. It would be used with, for example, in External links, like s are for visual media.

or would yield:
 * NAME at Public Radio Fan

or would yield:
 * Fresh Air
 * Fresh Air at Public Radio Fan
 * Fresh Air at Public Radio Fan
 * Fresh Air at Public Radio Fan
 * Fresh Air at Public Radio Fan
 * NAME at Public Radio Fan


 * WHYY-FM
 * WHYY at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan
 * WHYY 2 at Public Radio Fan

.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * My kneejerk reaction (or maybe it's just jerk) is to wonder why we should create templates pointing to a site so non-notable that we don't even have an article about it. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 03:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. Discouraging spam would be a much better idea. Johnuniq (talk) 10:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * At a minimum, please avoid using multiple unnamed parameters in creating a new template. It often causes problems down the road, some of which are difficult to detect. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Gadget statistics
Hey there! Quick question: Where is it possible to check how many are using a certain gadget? Can anyone do that or do you need special privileges? I remember there was a way but... - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Special:GadgetUsage. — xaosflux  Talk 17:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * thank you! :)) - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Possible COVID-19 template problem
Possible Template Problem: For some reason, several templates, "" and " ", no longer seem to be working at the "COVID-19 vaccine" webpage - tried to fix the possible problem(s) - unsuccessful so far - Help Welcome - iac - Stay Safe and Healthy !! - Drbogdan (talk) 14:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You have reached the template expansion limit. You can see in the current version, the source code near the bottom the stats generated on the page creation by MediaWiki, that "Post‐expand include size: 2095857/2097152 bytes". Those templates would exceed that, so it will not expand any more templates. You likely need to consider either reducing the number of sources (you have 700+ references, that's counting towards it), or splitting content. --M asem (t) 14:49, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

How do I free up my sandbox?
I recently needed help in publishing my sandbox page "Proliferative fasciitis and proliferative myositis". The helper, Qwerfjkl, successfully moved the page to a Wikipedia page but now my sandbox page is locked up with the statements:

"This page is a redirect. The following categories are used to track and monitor this redirect:

From a page move: This is a redirect from a page that has been moved (renamed) or is the result of a page move. One reason this page was kept as a redirect is to avoid breaking links, both internal and external, that may have been made to the old page name. Any redirect with a page move logged on its history page should be tagged with this rcat template."

I and my helper do not know how get back to my original sandbox page; I have tried several ways but nothing is successuful. Can your advise me how to do so? Thank you. joflaher (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi I was just passing and thought I'd help. I've removed the redirect from the sandbox, which located at User:Joflaher/sandbox You can create as many sandboxes as you want.  Qwerfjkl doesnt' have the page mover permission, so it leaves a redirect automatically, when a page is moved. Hope that helps.   scope_creep Talk  21:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, thank you, thank you. I greatly appreciate getting my sandbox back. Is there any way that I can get back my original sandbox with all its additions and revisions of my 10 years of contributing. I frequently scroll through, going back to remind me of my old published articles and additions to other articles which I then check for important updates. Again, thanks!  joflaher (talk) 17:49, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What was it called?   scope_creep Talk  21:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I couldn't find anything. I did find this: User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma which need fixed. For some reason you created it under user namespace instead of the article namespace. I'll fix it right now.   scope_creep Talk  22:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh my, this is interesting. It looks like in May, you moved User:Joflaher/sandbox to User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma.  That's technically a legal page title, but certainly not what you intended.  The editing history of that page goes back to 2018, and it looks like you've kept reusing the same sandbox for multiple articles.  That's not bad, per se, but in the long run it makes more sense to start a new page in your user space for each new article you begin.  So, with that example, you would put it at User:Joflaher/Anaplastic large cell lymphoma.  It's kind of like how you might sort files into various directories on your desktop computer.  And then the next article you start might be at User:Joflaher/Interesting disease I want to write about.  The advantage of this over using your sandbox is that each new article gets its own history. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi I posted a note up to  to fix it, so I guess its deleted. I will CSD it.    scope_creep Talk  23:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I put a G6 on it.   scope_creep Talk  23:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a load of sandbox like edits in the early page history of Eosinophilic myocarditis, this might be what you're after? 192.76.8.74 (talk) 23:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Scope creep I've undone your G6 tagging. We're still trying to sort out what happened.  Maybe this needs to be deleted eventually, but for now, let's not make things more complicated than they already are. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I know what happened. Joflaher copied the article from his sandbox to User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma and another editor came along, fixed it, but left the user still created.   scope_creep Talk  00:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, that's part of it. User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma has history back to 2018.  Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma has history back to 2004.  I still don't understand how that came to be. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Joflaher did you at some point make a copy of Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma in your sandbox? -- RoySmith (talk) 00:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I added about 20,000 words to anaplastic large-cell lymphoma by copying the old page to my sandbox, updating this old copy with the ~20,000 edition, and copying this updated version over the old (i.e. just totally erased) anaplastic large-cell lymphoma blank page. This is my usual method when a make a very large addition to a Wikipedia page. joflaher (talk) 21:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Joflaher that's (emphatically) not a good way to be editing, for several reasons. From the legal point of view, there's issues with copyright and attribution.  From a practical point of view, what you're doing leads to page histories that are difficult to understand, such as we have now.
 * To be clear: please don't make copies of pages any more.
 * As 192.76.8.74 pointed out above, the page that's currently titled Eosinophilic myocarditis looks like it might be your old sandbox. Looking through the history, it looks like it's got a version of Resolvin from June 2016, a version of Dysfibrinogenemia from August 2017, a version of Hypereosinophilia from November 2017, and possibly others, all jumbled together.  To be honest, this is beyond my ability to resolve properly.  I'm going to leave this to somebody else who is more experienced with doing surgery on article histories. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Its not as simple as I thought. I've posted to Primefac, who may help.   scope_creep Talk  10:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right. I copied all of those pages and many more be copying the Wikipedia page, revising it, and then overwriting the original Wikipedia page with the revision. It is extremely difficult to directly revise the original with extensive changes that may take weeks to arrange. Can I make the sandbox copy by taking only parts of the original page piece by piece and then erase the orginal page, save the blank erased page, and then copy the sandbox to the empty page? The Wikipedia pages I hope to soon revise are seriously outdated and/or extremely incomplete. How do I procede. Thanks.Joflaher (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I run into the exact same problem when I edit large articles, and it is a pain, all the time. Unfortunately when Wikipedia was originally designed, it was designed for new editors who didn't know how edit a page, or use software and its been that way ever since. Time has marched on and the editing experience has never been updated, even though most of the world now know how to editing on Wikipedia means. For experienced editors it is extremely limiting, slow and bureaucratic, and I often think if we had a better interface that was less bureaucratic we would have had twice as many articles. Unfortunately, I think there is not much you can do, apart from edit in-place to preserve the version history.   scope_creep Talk  13:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There's two mostly-distinct issues here. I'll cover them one at a time.
 * First, there's the legal requirement to provide proper attribution for all content. You can resolve the legal issue by providing the required attribution in the edit summary and/or talk page.  See Copying within Wikipedia for more on this.   An example is Special:Diff/1013612925.  Note that I've not just included the page I copied it from, but also the exact revision number; I don't think that's strictly required, but it's good practice.  You can generate that URL by going to the page you want to copy and clicking  "Permanent link" in the navigation bar (at least on the web front-end).  That will generate a URL of the form I used and take you there.  You can then copy the complete URL from the browser's URL bar and paste it into your edit comment.
 * Second, there's the issue of intermingling the edit histories of multiple articles in your sandbox. The solution to that is to not keep reusing the same sandbox page.  Make a new page in your userspace for each project.  In the example I used above, I was only copying it to do some testing, so the intermingling of histories was not a big deal.  But, if I intended to make a local copy, work on it, and then copy that back, what I would have done was created a page called User:RoySmith/Julio and Marisol temp (by just typing that into the wikipedia search bar), then copying the contents I wanted to work on, with an edit summary as described above.
 * All that being said, working in this copy-modify-replace mode is not how the system is designed. I really urge you to work on articles in-place.  It's how most people do it, and it's how everything works best.  I get what you're saying about how that makes it harder to do major changes, but it's still the recommended way to work.  Consider, for example, if you make a copy of an article that has three sections, A, B, and C.  You work on section A in your userspace.  Meanwhile, two other editors work on sections B and C.  What happens when you copy your local version back?  Do you just blow away the changes the other people made and overwrite them with your obsolete copies of sections B and C?  Do you work through all the changes and carefully resolve the differences?  This is a real-life problem (called an edit conflict or merge conflict) which is exceptionally difficult to solve.  The best way to avoid it is to not make local copies.  You can still get edit conflicts if you work on the page in-place, but the window of time where this can happen is much reduced.
 * All of the above is in the vein of "If you're not going to do it the way I recommend, at least do it this way so you don't get yourself back into the mess you're in now". -- RoySmith (talk) 14:30, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Joflaher What would you like me to do with User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma? Now that I understand the history better, I agree with @Scope creep that the best thing to do is delete it, but didn't want to do that without consulting you first. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It can't be deleted. That is most modern version that Joflaher created of Anaplastic large cell lymphoma, it needs to be copied across as plain text intothe original article space and the user eventually deleted. Thankfully it wasn't G6'd, otherwise all that work would have been lost. That was good call, removing that G6, for sure. I never noticed at the time. I could do copy now, to get it started. Yip, looking at Signs and Symptons section, for example, on the old article, it much smaller than the new article. So user text needs ccopied, but I'm not sure what you would do with the revision history in the user: article. What would you do there? Could you take that across and plump it on top of the old revision history in the old article, then delete the user.    scope_creep Talk  20:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've taken the article across. I'm assuming you'll fix the revision history and then delete the user?   scope_creep Talk  20:34, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have inspected the article anaplastic large cell lymphoma to which I previously made a large update and revision. You did a simply great job: the article appears identical to my revision including a typo which I corrected (OK to do so?) I have often thought that this editor needs an editor to edit his work. I will surely make all revisions directly in the article rather than pasting from my sandbox. I am sorry for all of this. I may ask you all a question or two in the future. Thank you.Joflaher (talk) 21:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Scope creep I really wish you hadn't done that. I had just finished explaining why copy-paste is a bad thing, and you went ahead and did another copy-paste.  If the two pages really did need to be merged, there is a mechanism (WP:HISTMERGE) to do that and preserve the history.  By doing yet another copy-paste, you've made things even more complicated, especially since there's been several more normal edits after your copy-paste.  I apologize for being abrupt here, but please don't do anything further with this; leave it to admins who know how this all works and have the tools to fix things correctly. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd noticed this thread before, but didn't really know what to do with it ... after an alert about it at the admins' noticeboard, I've checked the edits out again. I've gone and moved the unrelated edits at Eosinophilic myocarditis to User:Joflaher/Early sandbox history. Re Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma, I might be missing something, but I really don't understand what the major problem is. Joflaher moved their edits from their user sandbox to the article in May 2021. There is no attribution issue because the user's copying text *they* expanded from their own sandbox; we're more after the author list than the number of edits they made, when it comes down to it. Because the userspace page has 3,156 edits, many of which over a long period of time are about anaplastic large-cell lymphoma, messing around with its history would be an exercise in extreme frustration. Sure the userspace page should be moved somewhere better (hnot deleted) but I don't have a problem with it. Graham 87 07:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I also split out the sandbox history of Transient myeloproliferative disease into User:Joflaher/Early sandbox history2 and Fibroblastic and myofibroblastic tumors (which I found through the XTools edit counter because it had over 900 edits) to User:Joflaher/Early sandbox history3. Graham 87 07:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Graham87 Thanks. So I know for the next time, what tools did you use to split the history? -- RoySmith (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I see has already merged things back. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I used selective delete/restore to do the history splits, mostly using WikiBlame to help find the cut-off points. Thanks Anthony for doing the histmerges. I didn't think to do them myself but it's probably neater this way. I'm normally not a fan of Special:MergeHistory because it only logs in one direction, but it's probably perfect for this sort of case. Graham''' 87 13:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone and restored the Wikidata entries from Anthony's deletions/restorations. Graham 87 13:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I have merged the displaced editing history that was in User:Joflaher/Early sandbox history2, back to GATA1 where it belongs. Across Wikipedia there are likely countless snippets of edit history which got displaced because some user cut-and-paste moved a page to a scratch page to edit it, and back afterwards. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, Great to see it being finally actioned. What about the Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma and the User:Anaplastic large cell lymphoma?    scope_creep Talk  15:13, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅, see Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma and Anaplastic large-cell lymphoma/version 2. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ,, Good work. Glad that's done. I never went through the whole revision list of's Joflaher. That user was the biggest one that jumped out.    scope_creep Talk  16:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Math 0
There seems to be problem with " $$0$$ ". It produces "$$0$$" (nothing). Other examples at Talk:Trigonometric functions.

Apparently a space must be inserted in front of the zero (" $$ 0$$ ") to produce the desired result: "$$ 0$$". Is this a bug or did I miss something? TIA. - DVdm (talk) 15:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a known bug that was introduced today while they were fixing another issue - if you have a zero inside the math tags the wikitext parser incorrectly thinks that it's an null string and returns nothing. See T288846. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! - DVdm (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sortable tables on Mobile
So, sortable tables don't work on the mobile site. Table sorting is a pretty important feature for many articles. It has not been turned on for mobile as of yet, because of ... Well, it looks like the devs would rather wait until another thing (which is more complicated) is fixed up so they can turn them on at the same time, which would be easier for them. (I may be misinterpreting this.) But from our perspective, maybe we'd rather just turn it on from our end, instead of waiting however much time (likely years) until someone gets around to it?

Does anyone see any reason not to just add something to the effect of  to Mediawiki:Mobile.js, to turn on table sorting? It's certainly ugly to do it this way, but are there any actual problems it would cause? --Yair rand (talk) 06:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * i don't think the bug is blocked on anything technical at this point. It just needs someone to submit a patch for Minerva. Would be great to fix this in the code rather just for one project which will likely be copied to other projects :-) I know there are concerns around increasing touch areas but I don't see that as a blocker. Jdlrobson (talk) 20:04, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For the touch areas perhaps all that's needed is a rule for lower resolutions to increase padding?
 * e.g.
 * (Also if was not clear I am happy to provide code review support) Jdlrobson (talk) 01:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Also if was not clear I am happy to provide code review support) Jdlrobson (talk) 01:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Also if was not clear I am happy to provide code review support) Jdlrobson (talk) 01:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Lucy Harris (politician)
Why is Lucy Harris (politician) listed in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion for unspecified reason? This page does not have the db tag and has never had the db tag. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 12:28, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ShakespeareFan00 tagged one of the templates used on the page for speedy deletion by commenting out the template code and sticking a delete tag on it . This resulted in every page containing Template:Conservative Party MEPs having a deletion notice transcluded onto it and being tagged for speedy deletion. To fix it you need to WP:NULLEDIT the page to refresh the categories. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 12:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Broken reply links on user talk pages
I've seen two different user talk pages with custom styling (in both cases, a background color) which break WP:REPLYTOOL. The problem, and a fix, is discussed in this thread. If you're doing any custom styling on your user talk page, please take a look at that thread and see if it applies to you. Thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Language links sidebar not updating
I'm used to the language links in the left sidebar updating immediately after a change to WikiData language links, as soon as the article page is refreshed. For some reason, the article I just updated, Relaxado en persona, is not showing any links (there should be two: es and ca). On the flip side, es:Relajación (Inquisición) is showing only the Catalan link, as it was before. WikiData shows that the English link is there, attached to Q16624799. After many tries, I had to purge the page to see them. (Likewise, on the Spanish page.) This is different than dozens or hundreds of instances of doing this in the past; what's different now? Mathglot (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot: I'm not an expert on the inner workings of MediaWiki, but I assume updates to site links on Wikidata are the kind of thing that get put into the job queue instead of being handled immediately, and this time the queue just happened to be a bit longer. Purging told the servers to take care of it immediately and serve you the most up-to-date version of the article possible, and so they did. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 11:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Correct. Izno (talk) 15:01, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * and Izno: thanks. Can't help wondering if that's a leading indicator of servers maybe reaching some sort of capacity limit more often lately; I've literally never seen this before, and I can't count the number of times I've seen the new links come in immediately. Time for a couple of new servers? Anyway, thanks for the help! As the French say, "I won't sleep stupid tonight!" ("Je dormirai pas bête ce soir.") Mathglot (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Just guessing here, but was just mentioned in the Tech News above. It relates to the languages sidebar item, specifically in the New Vector skin, but there may be some related changes to the machinery that are affecting what Mathglot sees. And it is Friday.... – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Citation generation tools: Reftag link broken
The link to Reftag is down.http://reftag.appspot.com/ link is not working and google books citation generator is not working.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 09:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was reported previously on here. The maintainer Apoc2400, has only been once since September 2020 and that was in April this year.    scope_creep Talk  09:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Linking to Commons
Is there a way to link to Commons from an En WP Talk page, similar to ? Thank you.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:50, 20 August 2021 (UTC)


 * will link you to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Kitten, whereas if you want to connect a Kitten Wikipedia page to Commons, you're better off doing that in the Wikidata item. See Help:Interwiki linking Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:57, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No, I played around before posting here and couldn't find a way. I wanted to show a list of usernames with all edits to commons visible, not just uploads. I have rough-drafted it this way Commons contributions for Rocknrollmancer which shows minor edits and requests for deletion recently, for example.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 18:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You would need to make your own template if you want it to do something exact, or you could try Template:User-multi which has many parameters you could use. — xaosflux  Talk 18:48, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Whatever the link is on Commons, prefix it with  as in c:Special:Contributions/Rocknrollmancer. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the latter is better - that's one I didn't try; I've still got the tab open so I'll clean it up thatway. thanq,, .--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

If I understand what you are asking for, I had a need for something like this recently, and created Userxx and User5xx; see if they do what you are asking for.

Does that help? Adding. If it is, help me link it from the right places so it gets seen. Mathglot (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * user-multi has a  parameter.   produces:


 * PrimeHunter (talk) 21:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * - that's almost working except the last function 'block log' has a bug, is not properly enabled and does not show a tooltip. Also showed the last two out of a three-name user identity. That's three words, each having an initial capital, no other characters. I've tried another username just to see what appears,  same again showing That Turned only, without Worm and unlinked. It was the first three-word username I thought of, WTT is not part of what I'm doing. Thanks,--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yah, it's actually only designed currently for sister wikipedias, not the other projects, but that's an enhancement that should probably be added. When I first created it, I did it mostly for myself, and I only needed it for translations, so, fr.wikipedia, de.wikipedia, and so on. But if you're looking for a template like that, then probably you're not the only one, and it should be enhanced for commons and all the other projects. The unlinked multi-word user thing you found is a legit bug; if you could just repost your last comment at the Template Talk page, that would help. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:50, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have made a fix with , but we already have user-multi with lots of features. If you want a template with specific defaults then I suggest just making it a wrapper for user-multi. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hah, great minds(?) think alike!, I came here just to say that I thought just making it into a convenience wrapper was probably the right way forward; thanks for the fix. , are you okay with just using user-multi, or would you find it easier to use user5xx with its fewer features, but perhaps easier usage, since it requires only a username, and a project prefix? Other wrappers could be easily created as well; including one to match the parameter set you want. Mathglot (talk) 01:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * - I went ahead with the multi as suggested by and the list I created went live a few hours ago. I don't expect to need it again, but if so it's traceable. Thanks to all for getting there.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 10:16, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

How to change font size within Wikipedia?

 * My Wikipedia display's display font size has suddenly changed. Please how can I change it back? When I am not in Wikipedia, my screen looks like it was before. There seems to be a font size setting that applies only in Wikipedia. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

If this is a continuation of the WP:AN thread, I've got to think 's explanation is the most likely. In Firefox (as well as other browsers), you control font size, and it's all too easy to accidentally change it.
 * If you're using Windows and Firefox, thee's probably a line near the top of the Firefox window that contains the url you're at . If the font size has been changed, just to the url's right should be a number. If the font is smaller than normal, the number will be "90%" or "80%" or ... If the font is larger than normal, the number will be "110%" or "120%" or...
 * Font size settings are stored based on the url. If in at the English language wikipedia the font is at 90%, switch to commons, and it will likely be different (unless you changed it there as well).
 * The easiest way to reset is with CTRL+0. By "CTRL+0", I mean:
 * Depress the CTRL key.
 * While the CTRL key is depressed, hit the zero key. To be safe, use the zero key above the letters. If you use the zero on the numeric keypad, make sure the NUMLOCK key has been hit; otherwise, you're actually hitting CTRL+INSERT.

Hope this helps! --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 18:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, will restore it. But you're probably wondering how it happened in the first place - it's possible that you used  but more likely that you rolled your mouse wheel whilst the  key was down. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks :: ctrl-minus did the job :: I prefer 90%, as that gets more lines of text in a screenful. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * To expand on that a bit, most browsers have the ability to individually set both the base font size and the page zoom. The difference is that the font size only affects text (and layout measurements that are designed to scale with text size), while page zoom also changes the image sizes.  In Chrome, they're both under Settings/Appearance.
 * In theory, the various skins (Vector, MonoBook, etc) are all designed to scale smoothly as you change the base font size in your browser. In practice, once you get very far away from the default size, you'll almost certainly start to see layout problems.  For example, if I set the base font size in Chrome to "Very small", my left-hand navigation bar becomes too narrow and the globe logo along with "Wikipedia/The Free Encyclopedia" below it are clipped on their left and right edges.  On the other hand, if I set it to "Very large", now the menus are too large and obscure the page title.  Page zoom is usually immune to those sorts of effects. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Peer reviewer link is broken
On the "Page" tab of any article page, the "Tools..." opens up a drop-down list that includes a link to "Peer reviewer".

This "Peer reviewer" link points to the domain dispenser.info.tm, which is currently unassigned. It may have had something in the past, but now it's just a placeholder page of a German registrar. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Page tab? Where's that? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:14, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's enabled by "MoreMenu" at Special:Preferences. The broken link is https://dispenser.info.tm/~dispenser/view/Peer_reviewer in MediaWiki:Gadget-MoreMenu.enwiki.js. Dispenser has had periodic problems for years keeping that domain working. It often works to use the IP address http://69.142.160.183 instead: http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/view/Peer_reviewer. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The SSL certificate of that external tool is expired, if it really is so unstable perhaps we should disable it from a community gadget. — xaosflux  Talk 02:31, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Assuming this is moremenu, which is loaded at least partially from metawiki, there it says the author is User:MusikAnimal. Any feedback MusikAnimal? —  xaosflux  Talk 02:35, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've removed the link for the time being. If enough people miss it we can add it back using the IP address, or individual users can add it themselves. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  20:58, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-34
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * The Score extension (<bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> notation) has been re-enabled on public wikis and upgraded to a newer version. Some musical score functionality may no longer work because the extension is only enabled in "safe mode". The security issue has been fixed and an advisory published.

Problems
 * You will be able to read but not edit some wikis for a few minutes on . This will happen around 06:00 UTC. This is for database maintenance. During this time, operations on the CentralAuth will also not be possible.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

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21:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Borel–Moore homology; need a central notification spot for ill-formed items
I am seeking a central location which can flag articles which seem to have been ill-formed for years. Borel–Moore homology has been recently touched by bots, but 2015 seems to be a recent readable version. Might there be such a location? (It turns out the good faith edit was 2019) --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 22:28, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The next observation is that some math markup, viz. $$0$$, as in " The first non-trivial calculation of Borel-Moore homology is of the real line. First observe that any $$0$$-chain is cohomologous to $$0$$. Since this reduces to the case of a point $$p$$, notice that we can take the Borel-Moore chain ", is rendering into blank spaces or empty strings.
 * Where are the readers of these articles? --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 23:03, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The  issue is reported at  and T289218. I don't know what your first post refers to. If you report a perceived problem with a page then please always say what the problem is, even if it seems obvious to you. Others may see something different for a number of reasons. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The first sentence of the article ends with a malformed harvard-style ref: "In topology, Borel−Moore homology or homology with closed support is a homology theory for locally compact spaces, introduced by (1960)." Which in 2015 read "In topology, Borel−Moore homology or homology with closed support is a homology theory for locally compact spaces, introduced by Borel and Moore (1960).". and which became ill-formed  03:10, 20 August 2019. -- 23:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC) --  I will now fix the 03:10, 20 August 2019 contribution, which had a missing pipe symbol, now that it's in the pipeline. --Ancheta Wis    (talk  &#124; contribs) 23:37, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I got the impression the article was unreadable to you. Is it really only about a few missing words in one place? I don't see why we would have a central location to flag something like that. If you don't know how to fix a minor issue on one article then just post to a general help page like Help desk or Teahouse. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:49, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like harvs permits first without last, which should probably be flagged as an error. I recommend bringing that problem up on the talk page for that template, to see if anyone is willing to code an error-tracking category for that template. Or, since there are only 1,500 transclusions and the use of the template is essentially deprecated, you could nominate the template at TFD to see if there is a consensus to replace it with a supported format. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I'll start there. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 00:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Lots of comment without mentioning the proper solution to the real problem. In, altered   to   and failed to include a pipe between two parameters.  fixes it. Job done, unless I'm missing something? -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry for the typo in that old edit, and thanks for fixing it. Good catch! Turgidson (talk) 20:55, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that typo, hence my recommendation for a change to the template code above, which would have caught it. Use of the template is deprecated, though, so it may be more useful to focus on replacing, rather than fixing, instances of it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * On a page with harvs, how do I add a new cite by an author already cited? .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The templates are a bit arcane, but sfn is probably the easiest way in. If you drop a note on my talk page with a link to the article, I'll be happy to help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

% codes
I know that when linking to WP, a "paren open" "(" is %28, and "paren close" ")" is %29. I need the % code for hatch mark "#", and for hyphen "-". Thanks. Milkunderwood (talk) 23:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * See Percent-encoding.  = %23,   = %2D. Johnuniq (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, perhaps you should explain what you want to do. Percent encoding is rarely needed. Johnuniq (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to have a workable link for myself or someone else to get to the correct place. Thanks very much for your help, and for the Percent-encoding. Milkunderwood (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) It's called percent-encoding. "#" is called a hash mark, not a hatch mark. By "linking to WP", I guess you mean to post a raw url like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example_(album) somewhere outside Wikipedia where some software converts it to a clickable link. What you need to encode depends on the software. "#" is %23 and works in links to Wikipedia but not in links to many other websites where "#" should be unchanged to work as a section link. "-" is %2D but I don't know any software where it needs encoding to produce a working link. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It's more complicated than that. For instance I need a working link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Renaissance_theater_companies#Lafayette_Players_(1916%E2%80%931932). Here the "%E2%80%93" is a complicated way of expressing a hyphen. Apparently it also allows the open- and close-parentheses to work, so it does go to the correct article. But on both a Windows 10 and a Mac, for the hash mark to find the Lafayette Players section in the Harlem Renaissance article, neither "#" nor "%23" work. In giving this address to different people, I have no idea what hardware or software they may be using. In this instance, the wanted section is right at the top of the page and easily findable; but that won't be the case with other needed links. So far it's only at Wikipedia that I've occasionally run into this problem, not at other websites. Milkunderwood (talk) 00:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * %E2%80%93 is not a hyphen but an en dash. We often use special characters in page and section names. and our url's correspond to them without simplification so problems like this are more likely at Wikipedia than other websites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Renaissance_theater_companies#Lafayette_Players_(1916%E2%80%931932) has no parentheses in the page name, only the section name, so going to the right page should never be a problem. "Windows 10" is not enough to guess which software you are using to convert url's to links. Maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Renaissance_theater_companies#Lafayette_Players_%281916%E2%80%931932%29 will work. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:43, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Pages having unicode private use area characters
Is there a way to get a list of pages in all namespace that contain any of the characters from the unicode private use area? There is CHECKWIKI/016 dump which is only for mainspace. These characters are problematic because they do not display properly in all devices and AWB cannot process pages that have them. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Just out of curiosity, why can't AWB handle these pages? I can understand an app not knowing how to render the codepoint, but why should it do anything worse than just showing U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER? -- RoySmith (talk) 21:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't know why but it has been a long-standing AWB bug. However it can process pages when the hexadecimal character equivalent is present. For example, replacing  with  will make the page editable in AWB. A bot task was approved to replace some occurrences of this character - Bots/Requests for approval/WOSlinkerBot 11. It would be nice if there is a way to search for all other PUA characters so that a broader bot task can be done. ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 05:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Ubuntu version history
Ubuntu version history has sections: for example:
 * Ubuntu 4.10 REDIRECTs to Ubuntu version history
 * Ubuntu Warty needs REDIRECT
 * Ubuntu warty needs REDIRECT
 * Ubuntu warthog needs REDIRECT
 * Ubuntu Warthog needs REDIRECT
 * et cetera, is there a way to do this? ... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * huh? Is there a way to create pages? Just do it? —  xaosflux  Talk 01:35, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * with software tools.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx 's user script redirectcreator might help. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  06:59, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Menu size
The menu button have been bigger for a while now. Is there any way to get the previous size back (the size of the "Move" button)? &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  16:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)


 * All the links are coded to have the same font size. Was this screenshot by chance taken on a mobile device? I know that mobile browsers can sometimes change font sizes. If that's not it, perhaps you have some other script or personal CSS that is conflicting with MoreMenu. That would make sense because the "Move" link is a native link that MoreMenu moves from the "More" menu. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  17:33, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @MusikAnimal This was taken on a laptop (it's easier), but the same issue appears in my mobile device. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  18:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This is addressed by ticket T289163. The function used by scripts to add menu items mw.util.addPortletLink does not insert the same HTML as Vector skin's native menu items do, causing them to not get the correct font size applied to them. – Brandon XLF  (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think going back to Vector version 1 (aka "Use Legacy Vector" in the preferences) from "New Vector", which should have been given a version number to avoid the sort of naming confusion that is inherent here (cf the phab ticket, where it is called "modern Vector"), also works around the problem. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Jonesey95 Sadly, Legacy Vector displays terribly on my mobile device (the left sidebar takes up a lot of the screen). &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  07:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Userscript to create Navboxes
Is there any existing user script to help creating Navboxes to bundle the [selected] individual navboxes on an article? Thanks -- DaxServer (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Nothing matching navbox in User scripts/List. Maybe add a request with some more detail at User scripts/Requests? — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:36, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! — DaxServer (talk to me) 11:07, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Read-only reminder
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Mention log
Hi. I've found the thanks log, is there a log for the same thing when someone mentions/pings you? Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 14:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * there is not a notifications log, however you can find your own notifications/mentions at Special:Notifications. — xaosflux  Talk 14:27, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 14:29, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Be careful about trailing whitespace.
I occasionally see people's signatures set in code style. Special:Permalink/1040624528 is an example I just generated by accident. I think I know what's going on. Various tools that collect some text and automatically append a signature don't check to see if there's trailing whitespace in the edit box. If there is, it's invisible to the user, but generates leading space(s) before the ~ is inserted, resulting in it being interpreted as code.

If you maintain any sort of tool which does this, I suggest you strip any trailing whitespace before appending the signature. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Log/2021 August 25
I've been trying to work around where and how Cyberbot I broke the TOC for today's AfD log, but my usual method of eliminating the issue (fixing the small tags) doesn't seem to work on this round, and it may be possible some of the noms were transcluded the wrong way. Can someone help us out on fixing the logging? Thank you.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 22:32, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I figured it out; three noms from one nominator from the 19ths were both incorrectly transcluded and placed on the 25th log, then marked with two heads rather than the proper three. All fixed now.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 22:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Strange redlink
User:John Quincy Adding Machine/Imagfriend displays a box generated by, which includes a redlink that says "this page's entry" and links to the existing page Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:John Quincy Adding Machine/Imagfriend. Here is a hand-coded piped link: this page's entry. Here, it is a blue link. Why is it a redlink at User:John Quincy Adding Machine/Imagfriend? Note that in Special:ExpandTemplates: The output includes this page's entry, which displays as a blue link: this page's entry. What's going on here? —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Context title, for { {FULLPAGENAME}}, etc.: User:John Quincy Adding Machine/Imagfriend
 * Input wikitext:
 * it looks like a blue link there on my end - I'd suspect the page was cached (so purging would resolve the issue). Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 00:20, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Elli: According to Help:Purge, purging rebuilds a page, so if you saw a blue link, the page should have already been rebuilt. But I reloaded the page several times in both Chrome and Firefox, and it stayed red in both browsers. Then I purged in Chrome and nothing happened. Then I purged in Firefox and that turned the link blue in Firefox. Then I purged again in Chrome and that turned the link blue in Chrome. Maybe my browsers sometimes use versions cached in my own computer even when I refresh the page. This is something I don't know much about. There's also the question of, when the page was last updated at 19:06, 25 August 2021, and I noticed and reported it more than 5 hours later, why Wikipedia hadn't already turned the link blue all by itself in all that time. —Anomalocaris (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * probably just a weird caching edge case. I've seen similar things happen. And yes, refreshing will sometimes use a cached version your browser keeps - you need to force refresh (like ctrl+f5 instead of just f5) to avoid that. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 01:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a known issue, and it occurs if the edit that adds the to the user page is saved before the MfD nomination page is itself saved. This sequence is understandable, because it is advised at WP:MFDHOW. A subsequent WP:PURGE will rebuild the page on the Wikimedia servers, and so turn that redlink blue for other people; but it might not update any cached copy at the client's end, for which a WP:BYPASS may be necessary.
 * My own workaround is to follow WP:MFDHOW step I down to the last-but-one direction (Check the "Watch this page" box), then instead of saving the page, WP:PREVIEW it. Then in step II, instead of carrying out the direction "Click that link to open the page's deletion discussion page.", I would instead right-click that link. Then in the new tab, carry out the remainder of step II. Then return to the first tab, and complete step I by saving the page. Then proceed to step III. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Elli, there's a related problem. The page User:Maylimayli transcludes User:Hexagon1/Imagfriend, which redirects to User:John Quincy Adding Machine/Imagfriend (where we started), which brings in. So the effect is a redlink in User:Maylimayli that says "this page's entry" and links to the non-existing page Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Maylimayli. It would seem that needs a modification that somehow limits its pagename grab to the innermost transclusion. Is this possible? —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:43, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The wrong template was used, also causing other problems. WP:MFDHOWTO says:
 * If the nomination is for a userbox or similarly transcluded page, use so as to not mess up the formatting for the userbox.
 * I have fixed it. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:32, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Pblocking
A fellow admin has recently discovered that blocking an editor for a period of time, then pblocking said editor from and article indefinitely has the effect of removing the original block.

IMvHO, this is a weakness in the blocking system. Is there any way that blocking and pblocking can be separated, so that one does not impinge on the other? Mjroots (talk) 10:29, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For the "technical" parts of this, see T202673 and T194697. — xaosflux  Talk 12:38, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * wait, you want an account to have a site block, and also a partial block at the same time? Why would this be needed? —  xaosflux  Talk 12:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This is more of an English Wikipedia workflow question - keeping in mind that our blocks are meant to be preventative, not punitive. — xaosflux  Talk 12:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * - the situation in question is that an editor has been issued with a three day block, and it is desired that they are permanently pblocked from editing a certain article. At the moment, an admin has to wait for the 3-day block to expire, then go back and add an indefinite pblock. Should said editor be temporarily blocked again in future, the pblock expires the second the new block is applied. This is why it is desirable to separate the two. Mjroots (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * the general local argument here is: if the blocked editor is only causing trouble at one page that can be solved with a pblock then why would they need to "serve out" the 3 day siteblock? -- making the siteblock no longer necessary. There certainly can be some niche cases such as mandated arbcom remedy blocks, but these should be the exception. In any case, the blocking system doesn't currently allow for multiple blocks of any type right now, and the linked tasks above track the possible development of such capabilities that could have use in any mediawiki instance. —  xaosflux  Talk 13:03, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * for info - WP:AN/I. Mjroots (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * This is vaguely similar to page protections not being stackable. It would be nice to be able, for example, to semi-protect a page indefinitely, and also have full protection for a week.  When the full protection expired, it would revert back to semi.  But it doesn't work that way.
 * My first thought on reading this was it might set a trap for admins allowing them to accidentally undo a checkuser block without realizing it. Experimenting, however, it looks like when you set the pblock, you get the full block log shown to you, which means you would see the existing cu-block.  So I think we're good there.  -- RoySmith (talk) 15:00, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Feedback on improved template search needed
Hello! The Technical Wishes team kindly asks for your feedback on a specific part of an improvement regarding templates. Please take a minute to let us know what you think:

We are currently working on improving the search in the “add a template” dialog to make finding relevant templates easier. When using the template search, you have to know the exact title of the template you want to add. The planned improvement will allow you to search for keywords within the whole template name and template documentation pages. This change is already deployed on a few wikis, and our plan is to deploy it on all other wikis by the end of 2021.

The question: The improved template search currently also returns subpages of templates (that include the keyword) in the results, but we have received individual feedback that this is not wanted. Before we change this behavior, we want to ask a broader audience: Can and should subpages of templates be ignored in this search? Or are there cases in which a subpage of a template may host a template, and is therefore a relevant result?

In cases where template subpages are relevant to the search, examples are very much appreciated. More information about the feature can be found on this page. You can leave comments and share your thoughts until September 8th on this talk page. Thanks for your help! For the Technical Wishes team, -- Timur Vorkul (WMDE) (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't suppose it could just depend on whether the subpage-template has elsewhere been directly transcluded outside the parent template? --Yair rand (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Disappearance of LH side bar
all the items on the left-hand side bar have just disappeared nysteriously a few minutes ago, all of a sudden. my script buttons have disappeared with them. --  Ohc  revolution of our times 20:27, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If "Use Legacy Vector" is disabled at Special:Preferences then try to enable it. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have them back again. But I'm curious as to what action caused the sidebar items to disappear? --  Ohc  revolution of our times 18:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:ITSTHURSDAY and PROGRESS! — xaosflux  Talk 18:59, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Modify template
I want to add a parameter to the template: Infobox individual space vehicle. I also want to suppress the parameter's visibility when a value is not entered for it. I believe the code to make it invisible when it's not assigned a value looks like this: , but I haven't had success making it work. I was able to edit the template today, but was reverted, probably because of the unwanted visibility of the parameter in article(s) where a value for it had not yet been added. I made another effort at editing the template, but now find that any new parameter I add does not show up when I Preview, even after I scrutinize it for correct placement of braces, pipes, equal signs, underscores, capitalization, etc many times. I'm using a desktop version of Win10. I'm not new to Wikipedia, but am a template newbie. Appreciate any tips. Thanks. DonFB (talk) 03:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You're missing a pipe from your data line, you currently have, you should have  . By default if a parameter is not set then the tripple curly braces and parameter name show up in the final output, adding the pipe results in the parameter returning nothing instead. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 11:24, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In general, adding the pipe causes whatever is after the pipe to show up instead. Try to follow the style of other parameters. Your new parameter is the only one starting with a capital. Unlike page names, the first character of parameter names is case sensitive. The name  is awfully long. Look for something shorter. The displayed text "Distance flown or driven at destination" is also awfully long and that's worse. It may split into four lines in a narrow infobox column. It looks bad to display alternatives like "flown or driven". If you want two possibilities then make two parameters. Finally, I'm not sure the whole parameter is a good infobox idea. It requires updating while the vehicle is operational, and then it may need an as of date. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for answers with advice and insight. I have added separate params for "flown" and "driven", and the template works, with no unwanted text in several articles I checked that use it. I remain mystified, however, why the new parameters are not visible on the rendered page of the template itself, either in Preview or Published. I would like to fix that. DonFB (talk) 06:23, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You need to add your new parameters to the example template on the doccumentation subpage → Template:Infobox_individual_space_vehicle/doc 192.76.8.74 (talk) 12:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I already did, but no effect on the rendered template page. There are actually five links that open the edit window for the Doc page and I used all of them ('edit this page' tabs on main and documentation pages; 'Usage' edit link on both pages; and edit link to the right of 'Template Documentation' on main template page). DonFB (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant you need to add them to the "Parameter usage example" template at the top of the page, like this. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 12:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Thought it was probably something simple, but I wonder if I ever would have discovered that.... DonFB (talk) 12:53, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

WP:Idaho Project reborn...with new Talk page banner...Ideally (Rather large 7K talk page edit)
So, I have a pretty large talk page update to perform. The WikiProject Idaho template was rebuilt as a wrapper a couple years ago. A wrapper to the US Template. Being thorough, they also put into place an auto WP:SUBST that rebuilds the Idaho template into the US template with the ID flags. In trying to rebuild the project, I need to reverse that...Sort of... Finding the US Banner WITH the ID=yes flag and ADDING the new ID Template. (Currently in the template's sandbox). Just looking for a touch of help. Mjquinn_id (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ) I didn't want to perform a change on some 7,000 pages without getting some kind of consensus with the US Project first. Debating pulling the ID flag off?
 * ) Anyone have a favorite tool that would help me walk through an auto-edit of that many pages?
 * ) Though I have worked with templates for quite a while, this would be the largest change that I have pulled off. Might be nice to have another template expert looking over my shoulder?


 * @Mjquinn id What is the utility of spliting out Idaho from the US banner? Doesn't it already categorize everything as desired. Also if someone wants to add the article to Category:Idaho articles needing attention it's likely they would just do it on the main United States banner meaning these categories may be missed. In general it feels more convenient to just have one banner. --Trialpears (talk) 21:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was to introduce Task Forces (People and Geography to start). Which we cannot under the US banner. See: Template:WikiProject_Idaho/sandbox. Mjquinn_id (talk) 22:06, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, makes sense. I just feel that if we are to put significant effort into a project we should be sure there's an advantage. You can also use a petscan if you want a list of Idahoans like this. --Trialpears (talk) 22:13, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this a job for User:PearBOT? I'm really looking for a one-time mechanism... Mjquinn_id (talk) 22:51, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well I could from a technical perspective. I'm just quite busy right now and dealing with WikiProject banners is far from the most fun thing on wiki in my opinion, especially if I need to do a BRFA. --Trialpears (talk) 15:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Cannot Special:EditWatchlist
Special:EditWatchlist no longer works for me. I get a result such as
 * Server timed out
 * The maximum request time of 60 seconds was exceeded.
 * [074bbe7e-f867-4ada-8295-29331efb79bc] 2021-08-27 08:47:58: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\RequestTimeout\RequestTimeoutException"

What options do I have to download and edit my watchlist? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Can you use Special:EditWatchlist/raw? —Kusma (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes! 1 second. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Or raw safemode? — xaosflux  Talk 09:48, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes! 3 seconds. SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:01, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This can happen if your watchlist has a large number of entries. I think that 20,000 is a ballpark figure for "large number". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Over 18 000. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Infobox combination
Does anyone know if it is possible to combine the two infoboxes on Hildegard of Bingen's article? Ideally the philosophical information on the work she did would be before all of the random dates of canonization and such. Aza24 (talk) 03:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)


 * doesn't support being embedded, but does, so I combined them that way. It's not the order you wanted, but I think it is an improvement. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 04:02, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The annoying to hear!—But thank you regardless, I definitely agree that's an improvement. Aza24 (talk) 05:06, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Dynamic maps broken for 2 weeks already (Template:Maplink + Module:Mapframe)
Many of the dynamic maps provided by Template:Maplink and Module:Mapframe have been broken for quite a few days now as pointed out here. Does anyone know (?) what is happening and if it is being worked on already?--Kozuch (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Thiemo Kreuz (WMDE), do you know what has happened recently there? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:22, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't know enough to be helpful. While my team plans to work on Kartographer, this hasn't started yet. --Thiemo Kreuz (WMDE) 08:59, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

How can I find list of files I uploaded including derivatives?
Most of the files I uploaded under Non-free content criteria technically were deleted with lower resolution versions uploaded by a bot, so when I look for images I uploaded I cannot find them easily in Special:ListFiles/Shushugah. For example I uploaded File:Deutsche Wohnen & Co Enteignen campaign logo.jpg which was replaced by a bot, but I cannot easily find that in a gallery view anywhere without knowing the bot name, and those include millions of images. Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:31, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That's strange. I assumed that all you would need to do is tick the box for "Include old versions of files" on the Special:ListFiles/Shushugah page but that doesn't work! The upload is there in your "contributions" log for August 2021, so I'm puzzled.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Michael D. Turnbull I moved it here. Perhaps old version refers to old versions by the same author, e.g after cropping an image? Shushugah (he/him • talk) 20:01, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It might also be because the version you uploaded was revdelled per WP:CSD after getting resized. In addition to your contribs, which Mike pointed out, you can also still find them through Special:Log/upload/Shushugah. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 21:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I can see all of the file links, but not visually which is what I want. I have to manually open each file separately. Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:10, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I only just noticed you'd already said most of that before my comment and I just somehow managed to miss it, making my comment rather pointless – sorry for that. I don't know of any good way to get what you want, but I can throw together a quick and dirty user script that displays images on Special:Log if you're interested. It's not going to look pretty, though. – <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 11:53, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Archiving at Talk:Reno 911! and Reno 911!/Archive 2
Can someone please take look at what is going with the archiving at Talk:Reno 911!? I noticed this a couple weeks ago at Category:Wikipedia requested edits and moved an edit request back to the main talk page but it was archived again. Thanks! S0091 (talk) 21:36, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @S0091 I've prevented it from being archived again (by adding {{subst:DNAU}}). Was that the problem? &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  22:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Please state the perceived problem clearly when you request help. There is no Reno 911!/Archive 2, and archiving was done as instructed to Talk:Reno 911!/Archive 2 as far as I can see. I guess you just think archiving is too fast but don't know how to change it. I have changed it from 168 hours (7 days) to 2160 hours (90 days). PrimeHunter (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, Reno 911!/Archive 2 is a red link but that is how is showing up in the Category:Wikipedia requested edits. Search for Reno which now has 3 listings for edit requests, one is for List of Reno 911! episodes (ignore, it's fine), one for Reno 911!/Archive 2 (no main page but does have a talk page) and now one for Talk:Reno 911!.  When you click on "request" on the red linked page, it takes you an archived talk page which is not connected to a main page (red).  Something squirrely is going on. S0091 (talk) 22:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:Wikipedia requested edits displays both the automatic listing of member pages at Category:Wikipedia requested edits, and a transclusion of the bot-maintained User:AnomieBOT/EDITREQTable. It is the latter which previously linked Reno 911!/Archive 2 because there was an edit request on the corresponding talk page Talk:Reno 911!/Archive 2. I have removed the request there. Maybe User:AnomieBOT should be coded to detect the request is on an archive and link the parent page Reno 911! instead, but it's a minor issue you can take up with the operator if you want. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:28, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * and thanks for your help! S0091 (talk) 23:40, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Missing post on my talk page
Hi,

I received a message from an editor on my talk page vide this diff, however I cannot locate the message on my talk page after the diff - please see.

Would really appreciate any information on this phenomenon. Ashwin Baindur (User:AshLin) (talk) 05:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The comment on the first line wasn't properly closed since 2013. Nardog (talk) 05:31, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , thank you very much :D! Ashwin Baindur (User:AshLin) (talk) 07:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-35
<section begin="tech-newsletter-content"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Some musical score syntax no longer works and may needed to be updated, you can check Category: on your wiki for a list of pages with errors.

Problems
 * Musical scores were unable to render lyrics in some languages because of missing fonts. This has been fixed now. If your language would prefer a different font, please file a request in Phabricator.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-tools.svg The parameters for how you obtain tokens in the MediaWiki API were changed in 2014. The old way will no longer work from 1 September. Scripts, bots and tools that use the parameters from before the 2014 change need to be updated. You can read more about this.
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).

Future changes
 * You will be able to read but not edit Commons for a few minutes on . This will happen around 05:00 UTC. This is for database maintenance.
 * All wikis will be read-only for a few minutes in the week of 13 September. More information will be published in Tech News later. It will also be posted on individual wikis in the coming weeks.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="tech-newsletter-content"/>

15:59, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Moving locally uploaded fair use image
Hello, could anyone move File:Community of the Lippovan Russians in Romania logo.png to File:Community of the Lipovan Russians in Romania logo.png? I recently moved the article of the organization, Community of the Lipovan Russians in Romania, as "Lipovan" is more common than "Lippovan" and is their standard name in Wikipedia (their article is titled Lipovans, I specify they are a Russian minority in Romania). I wanted to move this image to have consistency but I don't know how to do this, there's no button and I've never seen a locally uploaded image on places such as WP:RMT. Super  Ψ   Dro  16:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Done; see File mover for more information about the process of moving files here. Graham 87 03:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Great, thank you. Super   Ψ   Dro  08:43, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Citation bot
Hi Technical Village Pump responser, I am try to run the citation bot but it cannot happen. When I entered the article name after that I clicked to the process page button and processing is happen but result cannot show. Why this happen? Please help me. Thank you ! Fade258 (talk) 14:49, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Try User talk:Citation bot. Remember to explain your problem clearly, including what article gives you an issue. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:26, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I find that for large parts of the day it times out with gateway error. But at other times it works. So just keep retrying. I am guessing it is overloaded with massive requests. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:30, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned talk pages
I've been dealing with a lot of orphaned talk pages lately and it seems that when an admin mass deletes pages created by a sockpuppet, the script or tool used doesn't delete associated talk pages. And also, when admins close AFDs, the script that closes them doesn't delete any associated subpages like talk page archives. And when pages are deleted using Twinkle, Twinkle deletes redirects but not redirect talk pages. I've posted about that last item on the Twinkle talk page but it seems like these are all the same problem although different scripts and tools are being used.

The result is that this leaves a lot of orphaned talk pages that can disappear into the ether. I'm coming across subpages of articles that were deleted as far back as 2015 and "To do" subpages (which apparently used to be a thing that isn't done any more) that no one would stumble upon. Is there a fix for this? Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 05:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess I should add that regarding the AFD closure & subpage problems, I am working with a list from 2020 so perhaps this is a problem that has already been addressed in the past year. The problem with mass deletion of pages and Twinkle is current though. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 05:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For what it’s worth, I also don’t think it’s great flow wise that deleting an Article automatically/always deletes the associated talk page. Recently I created a bad redirect and requested G6 CSD and User:TheresNoTime additionally deleted the associated talk page accidentally. Luckily she was able to refund it so no harm done, but it felt look a shortcoming of the twinkle tools (pinging not because you did anything wrong but to bring attention to this question) Are there any bots that scan for orphan talk pages? That changes how I view the problem. Shushugah (he/him • talk) 06:47, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There's Database reports/Orphaned talk pages. 192.76.8.74 (talk) 09:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Also see Community Wishlist Survey 2021/Admins and patrollers/(Un)delete associated talk page which was approved Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:53, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Mass delete broken?
I know this is not the right place to ask this, because its not really an en.wiki issue. Probably somewhere on meta. But is anybody tracking that mass delete is broken?

PHP fatal error: Allowed memory size of 698351616 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 8388616 bytes)

Anybody else getting this error on this or other projects? G M G <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  11:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is related to Meta either; a Phabricator task might be best suited. Just performed a "mass" deletion of one page at Meta and couldn't reproduce this. User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk)  12:10, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, what I meant was that it seemed likely to be a bug in the software somewhere and not a project-specific issue.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  12:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * is this with Special:Nuke? Is this still occurring now? What parameters are you using so someone else can try to duplicate the problem? — xaosflux  Talk 15:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's hard to show you because I don't think we share advanced permissions on any project. Trying to delete these page creations, 42 in all. Haven't tested on Commons because I haven't found anything comparable that I can rightfully mass delete. But it's just the "mass delete" button when you're looking at a user's contribs. But it's still not working. Same error.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  16:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm going to assume that clicking on that brings you to Special:Nuke. The one twist I see in there is that that delete is targeting pages and Files.  Can you try it without files and see if it is only broken for files? —  xaosflux  Talk 16:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well I can use it to delete their user page. Their cat creations aren't even showing up as a mass deletion option. Maybe the problem is that they're not actually local files. Local uploads are disabled on WQ, and these are just local descriptions overwriting the page on Commons.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  16:39, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I was able to use Special:Nuke on a single page, that was a local description page of a commons file (see log), so not sure what is going on for you. — xaosflux  Talk 17:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Looks like UDScott already cleaned them up manually. I'll just try to keep and eye out and see if I can get more info next time something like this happens.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  18:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Data/Graphics from citations and more...
Hey there! I'm an admin at SqWiki. I mostly look out for the technical side of the citations there. We have, for quite some time now, implemented this graphic which tells us in what language are most of our citations coming from. This can be interesting for quite some reasons which I can discuss further below if you want, not wanting to make the text longer now. For the moment I wanted to ask how you feel about this kind of "infrastructure"? Would it be a good idea if we could have more graphics similar to this implemented on EnWiki, tracking data from citations (or other areas)? Or do you think the categories are enough on its own? For example, again in relation to citations, we also have these:sq:Kategoria:Mirëmbajtja CS1, sq:Kategoria:Gabime CS1, sq:Stampa:Grafiku i faqeve me adresa që përdorin stampën e arkivës së rrjetit and sq:Kategoria:Faqe me adresa që përdorin stampën e arkivës së rrjetit që kërkojnë vëmendje, the benefits of which I can also discuss further below if you want. My question is not related to citations per se but to graphical data tracking in general. Tell me your thoughts on the subject and maybe even show me some kind of implementations you might already have here in regard to that. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 08:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice. I like the graphics at the top of the tracking category page. Quickly shows where problems are. Check out . It's not a graphics, but does track statistics across multiple wiki sites using Commons Tabular and a Lua template. It could be useful for tracking citation usage data across multiple sites, which could then be fed into a template that produces a graphic, that would work universal on any site with the same Lua code. It would require a language translation table that users can customize. -- Green  C  15:23, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @GreenC, yes. I did check it out but I'm not sure how it could be used for citations or anything of the same sort. I mean, the statistics it tracks are pretty general, like number of articles or number of active users. What am I missing here? :P Klein Muçi (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a model how the same could be done with citation statistic data. -- Green  C  18:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @GreenC, oh, yeah. Interesting indeed albeit unfortunately I'm not versatile enough on Lua as to create something like that. Especially on a global scale. But I like the idea, it's very in tune with what I've written. Citations aren't generally utilized for data/statistic purposes. Or even other utilities. The information on more than 6 million articles that we have here is vast and it does provide a lot of ground for introspective data collecting/analyzing of this sort. - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It is indeed vast, and vitally important. This is one thing WikiCite was supposed to provide services for (citation stats) but the WikiMedia Foundation recently declined to fund the project (a WikiCite central db) so we are back in the untamed wilderness. -- Green  C  17:44, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @GreenC, really? I didn't know WikiCite was "stopped" as a project. I had high expectances from it. Last time I checked I saw that there were plans of creating an "inside" WikiLibrary for citations, can't remember the name correctly. I thought it was a continuation of WikiCite. Strange to hear that.
 * And on another discussion fork, I was thinking today that at least the graphical aspect I said above could be used on maintenance categories here for the reasons we both mentioned. Maint-cats in general, not related to citations. It would be interesting to read some opinions from users that usually work with categories what they think of the idea. - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:53, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * WikiCite is not stopped. You cant stop something run by volunteers who require no funds. But if you want to build a database and services, you need funds. That has been declined by the WMF. So WikiCite right now is aspirational - something that might be.   --  Green  C  16:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I meant with "stopped". Here's to hoping we have more concrete steps taken towards that concept. - Klein Muçi (talk) 19:44, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

An enhanced diff broke for me
Many years ago, I enabled a different version of diff on Wikipedia. This gave me a little triangular icon above a normal diff, and if I clicked that I got an additional diff displayed which made some changes easier to spot, particularly those involving whitespace. A few days ago, this little icon disappeared, so I can no longer use the other version of diff. I don't remember how I enabled this in the first place; it may be the line "span.diffchange { text-decoration: underline; }" in my standard.css file. Is there any way to get this enabled again?

About the same time, I also noticed that when viewing a diff I could no longer click on links to articles. I can live without this but it might be a symptom with the same cause.

I have the wikEdDiff turned on in Preferences/Gadgets, although nothing appears to change if I turn that off. I don't use the visual editor.- gadfium 03:29, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I assume you have scripting enabled and that WP:WIKEDDIFF fails to work (the triangle symbol does not appear). I have no idea but there is a newish "Browse history interactively" which might be a factor. Johnuniq (talk) 03:51, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's helpful. So the triangle is WikEdDiff. I presume then that my scripting is broken or turned off. I do have Javascript enabled, so presumably this is some other setting, but I don't see it in Preferences. If I enable wikEd then the visual editor seems to work, and the diff is the WikEdDiff, but I prefer to edit the classic Wiki source.- gadfium 04:15, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * A workaround is to turn on wikEd (and turn off wikEdDiff since it's enabled with wikEd) and then use the wikEd control panel to turn off visual editing. This still gives me the wikEdDiff view (but no longer the standard diff, which I suspect I don't really need). I'd still like to get my old functionality back though.- gadfium 04:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Better workaround: I've installed wikEdDiff in my common.js file, and turned off wikEd in gadgets. Ultimately, the problem therefore seems to be that the manual installation works for me but the gadget doesn't. I'm still curious about why this should be. I'm on Firefox on Windows 10, and I run several security addons including uBlock Origin and Ghostery, but nothing should be blocking anything on Wikipedia and my setup hasn't changed recently.- gadfium 04:27, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I tried it: disable wikEd in gadgets, add to common.js (with proper reload) - not seeing the triangle. -- Green  C  15:49, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This works in common.js:   .. it's a fork that implements the changes recommended at User_talk:Cacycle. --  Green  C  16:06, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that works nicely. The triangle is back and links in the diff are working again. —Bruce1eetalk 11:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've got the same problem - the wikEdDif button is not visible. (I'm not sure how long it's been missing. I suspect no more than a day or two - I use it relatively often.) I have it enabled in my preferences, and (to my knowledge) I haven't changed anything recently. I'm using Pale Moon (web browser) on Windows 7. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Note, wikEdDiff is managed my a single user, User:Cacycle - who may want to look in to this. — xaosflux  Talk 07:30, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've notified Cacycle, but they are all but no longer editing here - we may need to disable this gadget or convert it to a community-managed script if there is enough desire to update it and maintain it going forward. — xaosflux  Talk 07:33, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The post above yours at User talk:Cacycle looks relevant.- gadfium 08:43, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I think you may know my opinion on that. ;D Izno (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm mostly suggesting that we simply move the page from Cacycle's userspace to mediawiki:gadget space if it is still wanted and will be maintained. — xaosflux  Talk 21:14, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This should be fixed in the original gadget now. Izno (talk) 16:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the original gadget is working again. —Bruce1eetalk 17:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, great service. Is strict class matching something turned on in the mediawiki platform recently, or was this a browser change?- gadfium 18:27, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Given the timing of when this started occurring (WP:THURSDAY), I would guess what happened is that additional classes were added to the elements of interest. Strict equality accordingly will not work. Izno (talk) 18:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's working for me again, too. Thanks. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Move wikEdDiff to community gadget
With Cacycle being absent, and the discussion above suggesting this gadget is still desired - any objections to moving this to a normal community gadget? From a end-user perspective, there should be no change; it would mostly just mean that Cacycle wouldn't be able to directly update it without seeking interface-admin access first. — xaosflux  Talk 13:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems logical to make it a community tool, so we don't have precisely this situation with a sole maintainer unavailable to fix a breakage not of the program's fault.  Luckily Serhio Magpie was able to identify the problem and offer a solution, caused by changes in MediaWiki elsewhere, we have to assume future changes could break it again.  Keeping these scripts together could make identifying where problems occur easier, searching a collection of scripts. --  Green  C  17:38, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It makes little sense to me that we allow any gadget to be one that merely loads another script in someone's userspace. That poses a huge security threat given they could go rogue or be compromised. Nardog (talk) 20:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Especially since MediaWiki.js pages can be invoked from URLs. &#8213; Qwerfjkl  talk  20:15, 31 August 2021 (UTC)