Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 199

Why didn't this rename get logged properly?
Based on some hints (like the user talk page being redirected), I guessed that had been renamed to, but couldn't find the log entry by searching for either name. Eventually I found this log entry by but there's no performer and no target. The raw database record is here. What's going on? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:35, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @RoySmith it seems to work for me (with or without the User: prefix example 2), and the meta log is here: meta:Special:Redirect/logid/48837681. What is not working for you? — xaosflux  Talk 14:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, cannot reproduce it now. Weird.  Possibly I just fat-fingered the search or something. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that, sometimes, the logs take a few minutes (or longer) to be properly updated by whatever system does that during a rename. I'm not sure the reason why. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 17:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

ParserFunction error
I'm completely useless when it comes to template coding. Why is the "North America" entry in List of continents and continental subregions by population returning an error message? This seems to be the result of Anderjef's updating of UN population on the 18th, but I can't figure out what the problem is. The string "0" (in the "List of continents ..." page) returns the correct value of 595,783,465, but the string " million" returns an error message, even though the same string for South America, " million", returns "434 million". This has me stumped. Deor (talk) 15:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I suspect that Editor Anderjef broke with this edit (search for 'North America' in the right diff column).   wraps the value in  tags and that confuses the   parser function.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 15:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * So I should just delete the template there (and presumably in the "Channel Islands" entry immediately below)? Deor (talk) 17:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I pinged Editor Anderjef so that that editor can explain why the edit was done as it was done. I don't know what the   comments really mean so I don't know why Editor Anderjef used  instead of writing:
 * (or doing it some other way)
 * Were I you, I would hold off doing anything until Editor Anderjef responds.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not super experienced in template editing, so my mistake. I used to add commas to the numerical output to match all the rest (it passed the non-comprehensive testcases). The backwards compatibility stuff was for entries that had been listed in the 2019 UN data, but are not present in the 2022 data&mdash;I see reasons for keeping the North America and Channel Islands (and other such) entries if they were used somewhere in the past, but they don't literally appear in the data set (at least anymore) making them disingenuous to the source imo.
 * I'd just replace the with   if that's expected to resolve the problem. Sorry! Anderjef (talk) 20:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Trappist the monk and @Deor Anderjef (talk) 20:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As I said, I'm clueless when it comes to template coding, so don't know whether that would work. As I said in my original post above, the string in List of continents and continental subregions by population is " million" ; is introducing another  in there going to solve the problem? Part of the problem is that I can't tell whether  is used anywhere else on Wikipedia, although the "List of continents ..." is the only one showing up in Category:ParserFunction errors. (There doesn't seem to be a problem with the Channel Islands that I can see;  is used in the infobox of Channel Islands and displays the numeral correctly, with a comma, since it's not nested in other code.) Deor (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Deor Looks like  was the solution. Thanks for helping out y'all! Anderjef (talk) 21:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for fixing it. Deor (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, and pings don't work when added after the fact as you did here.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * When I added the ping, I re-signed the comment, so I thought it would work. Sorry. Deor (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * When I added the ping, I re-signed the comment, so I thought it would work. Sorry. Deor (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Is there a need for a RFC to discuss splitting rights in Mediawiki and implement it?
Some background information: The zhwiki applied to enable the function of the recent patroling (mw:Manual:$wgUseRCPatrol). I raised an objection, thinking that this would overlap with the function of the new page patroling (The new page patroling is a job with a designated user group, and The recent patroling is a voluntary work without a designated user group), and then some users who support enabling this function plan to split the "patrol" right from the function, with this task: T308153.

And It has now been two months, and this task is still very deserted, and no one has discussed or reviewed the implemented code. So I have a question about this: Does this change to Mediawiki functionality require a RFC to deal with so that the developers of Mediawiki or Foundation can review and follow up?

Also, if a RFC is made to modify the functionality of Mediawiki, where should I apply? mw, or meta, or RFC?

Cwek (talk) 03:49, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * RFCs don't really modify functionality. They provide the basis for proving that there is wide community desire for a particular thing. This says little about implementation cost, deploy cost, planning, long term maintainability etc, which is all up to either WMF or a volunteer. Reviewers also will not magically appear, they have to be actively sought out.
 * However without an RFC showing the desire there might be little motivation to prioritise at all. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Getting rid of the revision slider
How can I permanently turn off the revision slider when I go to any and every article's History? I can't find the option in my Preferences. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 07:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Put this in . —Cryptic 07:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Works a treat. Bit impolite for the developers not to add a kill switch IMHO. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't need the  annotation. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't see a slider on article histories, but I do see one on diffs. There should be a preference to turn it off at Special:Preferences, the checkbox labeled "". Anomie⚔ 11:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Every time we add a preference, it slows down page load times for everybody, on all pages. Since all that is needed is one very simple CSS rule (a class selector and one declaration) that any registered user can add to their personal CSS, it doesn't make sense to create a whole new pref. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:39, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The pref exists, as described by Anomie. Nthep (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Also RedRose's point isn't entirely accurate. Preferences only really slow us down if the preference would effect how wikitext renders. It doesn't matter much outside of that. There is however a substantial additional cognitive load that each added preference brings (proven in part by the fact that ppl apparently were apparently unable to find this preference). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Template Editor needed. Serious neutrality violation with Template:Infobox_election
The software selects one image from the lead section of an article as the PageImage, prominently representing the article in various places. When this happens with Template:Infobox_election for an upcoming election, Wikipedia prominently promotes one candidate over the other. Not only does this directly and severely violate Neutrality, it undermines Wikipedia's reputation by appearing to take sides in the election.

The needed fix is to edit the template to add |class=notpageimage to each candidate image. That prevents the images from being selected as PageImage.

If you can confidently determine an election has concluded, the ideal result would be to have all losers tagged as |class=notpageimage and allow the winner to be the PageImage. However if a winner cannot be confidently determined within template code, the priority must be to ensure none of the candidate images are used. Alsee (talk) 19:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * An image of one of the leading candidates seems better to me than no image. Should we also randomly rotate them in the infobox so nobody is always shown first in the article? This seems more a content issue than a technical matter. You could try to get consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums or Template talk:Infobox election with the other linking to the discussion. If you get consensus but miss somebody who can implement it then it becomes a technical matter. I see there are already posts at Template talk:Infobox election but they don't discuss whether to do it at all. I would certainly start with that before deliberately disabling a significant MediaWiki feature which can help readers find the article they are looking for, and also has many other uses. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Searching Putler - Articles without term appear
I assume a template is causing this but when I do a search for "Putler", I get 347 results. 2 actually include the term. The other 345 show "Hey, Rise Up!" Madonna of Kyiv [ro] "Oi u luzi chervona kalyna" Patron "Putler" Saint Javelin "Slava Ukraini!" "Stefania" "Ukraine (song)" "Ukraine on" which is not in the articles or source of the sampling i checked.

insight? Slywriter (talk) 22:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Slywriter It is one of the links in Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (in "Impact"), used on many pages. Search results include text generated by templates. Matma Rex talk 22:22, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) "Putler" is in the "Impact" section of Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which is displayed at the bottom of many articles in the desktop version of the site. The mobile version omits such navigation templates but still includes the articles in the search result. I see you are currently using the mobile version so I can understand your confusion.  searches for articles where the source text contains "Putler". PrimeHunter (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. I switched to Desktop figuring I was missing something on mobile but as the specific words still weren't on the page, it didn't help. Now I know to dive deeper into the templates themselves. Slywriter (talk) 22:33, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Searching article text dumps
I would like to search articles in a way that I think is too complex for CirrusSearch and would time out (or at least be antisocial) on Search++. It isn't a job for Quarry because it needs article text. I've looked at PAWS but the examples there seem to read article text via API, which is feasible but not ideal (and I'd run it locally rather than add the complexity of PAWS). I could download an 86 GB dump but it would surely be far more efficient to search on a WMF machine which has access to that dump then download a few MB of results. Ideally, each job would run on one section of the dump, using a simple program. (I have a perl version ready.) However, I could just about get by with grep or equivalent. Is there such a facility anywhere?

In case this is an XY problem, what I'm trying to do is find certain links containing typos, such as Madona, which can result from an editor typing in a target badly then linking to the correctly spelled article via a VE dropdown. grep could handle single insertion (Maddonna), deletion (Madona), substitution (Medonna) or transposition (Maodnna), but anything more complex (such as Damerau–Levenshtein distance ≤ 2) really needs a proper programming language. Certes (talk) 23:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Certes dumps are already available on Toolforge. And you can run whatever freely licensed/open source programs there. Legoktm (talk) 03:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Legoktm. If anyone has successfully read article text from there then I'd love to see an example.  I have a dev account (which I've barely used) and plenty of coding experience but would appreciate some hand-holding in gluing everything together. Certes (talk) 09:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Certes: You can find the dumps you're looking for in  on any Toolforge server. You'll need a script to decompress the dump (you'll want to decompress on the fly) and parse the XML though, but it sounded like you already had something? Legoktm (talk) 04:11, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I'll look at getting a Toolforge project(?) started. I have a simple Perl program which I'm happy to release into the public domain.  It takes standard input but could easily open a file or be run as  .  I could add XML parsing if the appropriate Perl modules are available but may not need to bother as the regexps I'm looking for will in practice appear only in article text.  I'll have to think about how to test this without running a process all day checking an entire mainspace dump, but I may be able to run it on a dump of a small namespace like Portal: first.  Certes (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Some example methods for searching dumps: User:GreenC/software/search wikipedia. --  Green  C  04:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That gives me some confidence that this can actually be done, and if I do need to parse XML then those examples will be very useful. Certes (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a pity  doesn't work (or does it?). — Guarapiranga ☎ 05:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Good idea but a search for  finds the pages with p1, not those with Apple.    finds nothing, presumably because there are no Apple articles containing literally p$1. Certes (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it seems Searching/Regex doesn't do capture groups (though I could find no mention of it). — Guarapiranga ☎ 22:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't deprecated ref/note templates simply be regexed out for ref tags
Shouldn't deprecated / templates simply be regexed out for ... ... like so:  &rarr;   — Guarapiranga ☎ 03:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Not like that, probably. Your regex would have to be a lot more sophisticated to account for all of the possible parameters in ref. I clicked on three articles at random that contained ref. One of them had a broken ref template that I had to replace with a real ref found in the article, so the regex definitely would not have fixed it. The next one, Jell-O, would probably not be compatible with your regex. The next one, Johnny Unitas, would probably also not be compatible. Regexes are powerful dark magic; they require both wisdom and patience to wield effectively. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, "deprecated" means "don't make new instances", it doesn't mean "eliminate every existing occurrence". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Right. Guess I should've said ... — Guarapiranga ☎ 08:05, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Vector 2022 display overflowing issue caused by Template:Para
There seem to be an display overflowing issue with Template:Para when being used in replies, and when viewed on Vector 2022 skin. When viewed using Vector vs Vector 2022 in Template talk:Infobox musical artist.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  07:26, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Fixed Para, which made use of nowrap on potentially very long content, which is a nono. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:07, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

User with problem with "Create Account"
has been asking me for help on my user page and talk page. After telling him to come here he added this question at the top of the FAQ page: Since he has an account I am not sure what the problem is. StarryGrandma (talk) 19:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * , this is the place to chat with someone about your problem. People here have a lot more knowledge than I do. But we need more information. You have an account. Why do you need to create another one? When you click on Special:CreateAccount and enter a new user name, what happens? What is the exact error message you get? StarryGrandma (talk) 21:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Drypuglia: You have a working account here at the English Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org. If you want an account somewhere else then please link it. If it's another domain where you are able to log in with the same username and password then your Wikipedia account also works there. You are logged in if your username is displayed at top of the page. If the name is red then you have not created a user page there and may see a message which confuses you but don't worry. It's optional to create a user page and your account works fine without it. You do have a user page User:Drypuglia here at https://en.wikipedia.org. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have a user page. When I tried to write a post and upload a photo -Iwas blocked because I did not have an account! Drypuglia (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Please post a link to where you tried to write a post and upload a photo. If you got an error message then quote it exactly. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably tried to upload to our sister site Commons, but had not yet logged into Commons (same account, separate login) —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Legend colors
Hi

I was looking through some legends and saw colors swapped. So I fixed it. Today, a user reverted the change. Am I in the right or the wrong? Or is it possible that we are both right? Trying to decide whether this is a technical issue.

jps (talk) 01:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @ජපස: Actually, you were wrong. Hold means the same party kept the seat after election. Gain means that incumbent party lost the election, and the other party gained the seat. In this case lighter colors denote HOLD, darker colors denote GAIN. So, your edit was wrong. Also, this isn't a technical issue but it's alright that you're here. In the future, better place for election-related questions, would be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:58, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * So this is a technical issue, I think, because in my rendering of the legend, the colors are reversed. See image I uploaded. Could this be due to dark mode? jps (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh I see. Yes, indeed it is because of the dark mode gadget. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 10:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Do I need to file a bug report or something? jps (talk) 10:50, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Don't make any color edits without checking the result in the default light mode used by nearly everybody, and always say if a color-related post is about dark mode. When "Dark mode toggle" is enabled at Special:Preferences you should have a Dark/Light mode link at the top of every page. The issue is discussed at Template talk:Legend. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Related past discussion: Village pump (technical)/Archive 195. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 11:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've just deployed the changes discussed. But more edge cases likely exist, as legend can be combined with almost any type of other content, so it's always a bit of a guess. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It looks like the legend colors at 2002_United_States_elections are still swapped in dark mode. Is there some purge that needs to be done to fix that now? jps (talk) 16:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Because they were using legend-inline instead of legend. This is now fixed. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! jps (talk) 10:05, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. What was not clear to me was whether there was any way to implement the class mw-no-invert in the legend template. It seems that this is not an option, but I'm not sure. Is there a way to include this in "legend" as an optional feature? jps (talk) 11:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

New subpage behaviour?
I created a talk page subpage for an archive yesterday and instead of a blank page that I would simply add the 'AAN' template to I got a complicated screen inviting me to start a new discussion. This seems new to me, is there any way to bypass it and carry on as normal? I believe it is driven by the forward slash in the page name. Thanks. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  07:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, you click the create link on that same page, or to disable permanently you go to Special:Preferences and set the appropriate "quick topic adding option" —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:11, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much, I've reset my preferences. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  08:27, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * This is reported as bug T312560. Matma Rex talk 16:27, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

How can I get the editor with the citation tool and the editor with strike through, etc
Also, although I have "always given the source editor", I now default to visual editor with the ability to switch. How I make these messes is beyond me. Sorry folks. I do a lot of sourcing, so really need to be able to cite easily. Doug Weller talk 11:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * And I now have a 🖊 instead of the word edit. Doug Weller  talk 12:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Using Vector 2022. I now have an arrow at the top to publish. Doug Weller  talk 13:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Doug Weller if you want avoid the visual editor most of the time, try selecting "Temporarily disable the visual editor while it is in beta" in Special:Preferences. — xaosflux  Talk 13:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia editing tool.png
 * @Xaosflux That worked! Although now I have to switch between Wiked and whatever it is that shows as this. Easy enough to do though. Doug Weller  talk 13:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * And solved my inability to preview problem. Thanks so much. I'm dying of the heat here and this was a real timewaster, glad I had help, as always, from User:Xaosflux. Doug Weller  talk 14:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, on this wiki, you can go to Special:Preferences, turn on access to the visual editor, and in the drop-down menu right under that item, choose an "Editing mode" to "Always give me the source editor". (I personally prefer "Show me both editor tabs".) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:17, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Correlating edits with page titles?
Are there any good tools for showing what title a page existed under at the time an edit was made? I'm looking at two users accused of socking. User A has edited a page in user B's sandbox. Normally, that sounds like socking. But, if the page was in mainspace when A made their edit, and later it was moved to B's sandbox, that's less suspicious. The data to figure this out certainly exists in the move log, but doing the correlation by hand is a pain. Has somebody already written this tool? -- RoySmith (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)


 * User:Nardog/MoveHistory: This tool lists all the page moves a page has gone through in a chronological tabular format. So it can help do what you're looking for. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 19:38, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That gets me most of the way there, thanks. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

DNG/Raw image upload support
From the linked phab this has been a long-standing request, is there anything that has changed to allow editors to upload DNG/NEF/etc files? My other thought was seeing if maybe we could make a tool to add the raw file as an entry inside of a JPEG file (with a corresponding tool to extract the raw file for someone interested). This is not ideal as it would add an additional payload to the JPEG file (obviously significantly increasing its size), but would at least be a way to assure that editors wishing to contribute un-edited/raw images have a way to do so that is on-wiki and can be maintained in the attribution history correctly. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:31, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 21:18, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Adding new file types is probably being held up by T294484, where there isn't anyone who's actually maintaining the system that produces thumbnails and it's woefully out of date. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * Honestly, it would be enough to at least be able to upload (and of course, download) the files. Thumbnails wouldn't really be necessary as the edited JPG/PNG/etc would presumably be available. We shouldn't be displaying raw files directly in articles/pages. Someone mentioned the patented state of DNG during objections a number of years ago, but as the format is now nearly 20 years old, those initial patents should be expiring (or possibly already expired if they were awarded prior to DNG being documented). —Locke Cole • t • c 20:49, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There is more information to this. There is an working group working solely on updating the thumbnailing system and they are half way there, see project/profile/5851/ for that. The steward requests, which the aforementioned phab bug is, have been blocked by the lack of an CTO (Chief Product and Technology officer). In August there will be a new CTO at WMF, which then enables handling those again. That weather the thumbnails should be made or not is irrelevant, because it is the same system that changes from DNG to other raster formats as does the thumbnailing. Lastly, Brion mentioned that he would be updating documentation of how to add more file formats, once the thumbnail system update is done, so that will become easier. In short, there is hope for this bug, but nothing concrete can be said until after at least one month.--Snævar (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * While the thumbor problem would be a major blocker to deploy, its not as if there is anything to deploy. Ive added the instructions to how to add support to that ticket a while ago, and anyone able to find the TIFF metadata ids that make a tiff file a DNG file could implement this and start contributing patches. Please remember that the foundation doesnt have dedicated multimedia engineers, all file support is primarily driven by volunteers at this moment in time. The best way to make things happen is by writing code. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:41, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Are thumbnails required? Because I'd honestly settle just for having the ability to upload/download DNG files, which from the instructions you linked, should be as simple as just setting up the MIME types/extension..? —Locke Cole • t • c 22:40, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * No, as described in https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Adding_support_for_new_filetypes —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring quotation marks in sorting by name
For literary works in a sortable table it looks like class="wikitable sortable" first sorts those in quotation marks (short stories) and then novels in italics, so in effect two separate lists are formed. Is there a way to ignore quotation marks so that both short stories and novels would be sorted in a single alphabetical order? Brandmeistertalk  12:04, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * See Help:Sorting. There has to be code in each cell with different sorting. If most cells have a quotation mark then you can flip it and add a sort key with a quotation mark in the other cells. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Logos
How to re-create logos? More here. Eurohunter (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2022 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 20:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Eurohunter, The logos were created using Inkscape. It can be used to convert a PNG/JPG to SVG, but tracing simple images by hand would also work. 0x Deadbeef 17:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Any instruction? Eurohunter (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Eurohunter Graphics Lab/Illustration workshop --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|TALK
 * I mean how I can do this myself. Eurohunter (talk) 21:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Eurohunter:
 * 1. Look up what font-face was used for the logo.
 * 2. Compare that to SVG fonts, which is a list of fonts you can use in an SVG, all other fonts will render incorectly on WMF servers.
 * 3. Embed the raster image (File - Import, options: embed, from file, any rendering)
 * 4. Decide if the font exists at the previously mentioned "SVG fonts" list or not, if it does 4a, else 4b.
 * 4a. Use the font tool and the font you found, align it with the raster image and find the correct font size.
 * 4b. Trace the image by using the line tool (its the next item below the spiral in the toolbar). Alternatively download the font needed, use the font tool and then do path - object to path (this latter method is easier).
 * 5. Remove the raster layer.
 * 6. Save the image and upload, make sure to look at the thumbnail created before the upload and check if it is ok, if not, fix any errors it may have. Any questions?--Snævar (talk) 07:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't see this font on the list. Do you know what is this font? If you type "basshunter" "logo" "font" in Google Images there is "Hacker sklep komputerowy" and they has the same font but there is no name of font. "A" is similar to Comaro Font but letters "H" and "B" are slighty different and there are two different "S" letters so it had to be edited. There is also Babylon Industrial but it's not this too. Eurohunter (talk) 14:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * No. Actually, most SVG text logos on commons are drawn. It is worth mentioning the SVG font list regardless, since it de-courages new SVG editors to make SVG files with unsupported fonts, I have seen a few of those.--Snævar (talk) 16:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's all black when entered with Bezier. If I add straight line for B with Bezier then the second part is always curved. I need two straight parts then third curved line. How to control it? Eurohunter (talk) 16:51, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * When you click on a bezier curve, there are little boxes on the line. When you click on that there is a line going through the box. The further the line goes away from the box, the bigger the curvature, and vice-versa. Also, you can angle the line and decide where it curves by doing that. Drag the boxes so there is one on a straight bit, and another one on a curvy bit, so it knows where the curve is. Snævar (talk) 19:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * How I can undo one move instead of whole few steps? Eurohunter (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for pinging you again but looks like it's crucial for me to try to finish first project. I can't find option to undo one step from few. If I have to undo all of few moves then I have to start all over again. Eurohunter (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-30
 Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * The www.wikibooks.org and www.wikiquote.org portal pages now use an automated update system. Other project portals will be updated over the next few months.

Problems
 * Last week, some wikis were in read-only mode for a few minutes because of an emergency switch of their main database (targeted wikis).

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * The external link icon will change slightly in the skins Vector legacy and Vector 2022. The new icon uses simpler shapes to be more recognizable on low-fidelity screens.
 * Administrators will now see buttons on user pages for "" and "" instead of just "" if the user is already blocked.

Future meetings
 * The next open meeting with the Web team about Vector (2022) will take place tomorrow (26 July).

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. 

19:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

New edit window
What is the point of new edit window without tools? It would be cool if it had toolbar otherwise how we are supposed to use
 * On any device, not just iPad, you'll no longer be able to accidentally submit with the enter/return/go key, and you'll just use the Publish changes button. I find it just as useful on desktop.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    09:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I will try this when I get home to my desktop PC with a real keyboard, there is no way I am going to be able to edit my .js on this tablet. MB 20:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

It worked! Thank you very much indeed, it's a feature that I've been dreaming of for years. And let me remind you all that "your common.js" might as well be your global.js at Meta, so as to extend this to all the wikis you['ll ever] edit. (diff)
 * Looking back, I wonder why they've never implemented such an obvious thing in MediaWiki, not even as an option. Is there any reason to keep it like it currently is by default? And will anyone please submit a ticket on Phab *if* anyone thinks it's a useful (and even a life-saving) feature? (If anything, I'm not talking about any tablets, I'm on a PC. On an i686, you know). — Mike Novikoff 22:15, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

BLP notice
When WikiProject Biography is placed inside the WikiProject banner shell wrapper, the automatically generated notice for living people does not appear when the wrapper is expanded. Is this a known issue, and easily fixable? UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Please post a link or example with the perceived problem, and another where the wanted notice is visible. Always post an example. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It is not intended to display while inside the shell. The BLP template has had the  class or equivalent since February 2009, which Common.css has hidden since October 2008 and which banner shell has hidden since June 2022 (after moving the rule to TemplateStyles with a change in class name).
 * You must use y (or even |n will show a message) in the shell itself to display the notice. Izno (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Izno thanks, got it. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:49, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is documented at Template:WikiProject Biography and at Template:WikiProject banner shell. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:00, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Unbolding links from a page to itself
It looks like nobold doesn't work to unbold links from a page to itself. Is there any way to do that? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You do not give examples. Always tell us where you are attempting this, so that we may examine your markup. So, I'm guessing that you are attempting something like this:
 * → Village pump (technical)
 * However, is designed for use inside bolded text to de-bold part of it:
 * → This is normal weight text
 * so what you need to do is jump through a hoop:
 * → Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)
 * But why would you want to do that? Again, examples help. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe you are looking for No selflink. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter, that works; thanks both for the help! I'll add it as a see also to No bold to help others find it. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 04:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Schematic diagram symbols
Is there a tutorial or tool to create/modify advanced schematic diagrams (e.g. Template:Eglinton East LRT)? I have modified a number of diagrams by searching for similar symbols in other diagrams, and guessing how to adapt them. But sometimes, I cannot find suitable examples. There are also symbols such as ! and @ which seem to have a special meaning. The symbols \ ~ seem to be separators.

e.g.    CONTgq\BHFq!~HUB1\uxmtKRZ!~HUBc4\CONTf@Fq

Is there a comprehensive catalogue of schematic diagram symbols other than the following?
 * BSicon/Catalogue
 * Wikipedia:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms

Thanks. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is WP:RDT and the syntax got a lot more complicated after the introduction of, which some people are insisting should replace all current instances of which is far more intuitive and understandable. As for the individual icons such as , these should all be in subcategories of c:Category:BSicon. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 07:57, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

No merge for alternate accounts?
Some years back, I was given a legitimate alternate account. I now see that accounts cannot be merged: Changing username. Would somebody just confirm that I cannot merge my two legitimate accounts?

Thanks. `HG1 | Talk 17:07, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. mw:Extension:UserMerge is not installed here: Special:Version. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It also cannot be installed here as it stands, because it requires MediaWiki 1.37 or earlier, and we're now on 1.39 and advancing. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 08:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Redirect articles with CSD banners are not flagged as redirects in Quarry
I've been trying a few Quarry queries, and it seems that page.page_is_redirect does not get flagged (what I suspect although don't know how to test, is the flag gets removed) when redirects have a CSD template on them. Nor do they have an entry in the redirect table. It seems that other soft redirects do not have this issue.

It seems like since the CSD redirects I found keep getting flagged and deleted as I see them, the query changes so it the false negatives only show up sometimes. For example, I was picking up Death in vain, Annapurna Post and Oats Jenkins a few minutes ago but not any more. The second one is already deleted as I write this, and the other two are mysteriously missing from their respective category page - all three may be deleted before this gets read. Maybe this was not noticed sooner since this category is mainly populated by non-CSD redirects? Any advice would be appreciated.

See https://quarry.wmcloud.org/history/66236/674182/654721 for a specific run which flags Oats Jenkins as not being a redirect (page_is_redirect should be 1) and is missing a corresponding entry in the redirect table.

NB MediaWiki is not letting me post this at mw:Talk:Quarry giving me the cryptic message ⧼abusefilter-warning-linkspam⧽ in a red box. (Like, it's a warning, why would it prevent me? I don't know.) So I am posting here, if someone else could post this on my behalf there as well since I think the issue is more relevant there? Or maybe I should open a phabricator task - I'm not sure. Darcyisverycute (talk) 13:23, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Pages with CSD banners are not [hard] redirects, in the sense that anyone landing on them stays there rather than getting redirected to the target. The banner moves the #REDIRECT directive away from the start, effectively making them soft redirects for the duration of the deletion proposal. Certes (talk) 13:32, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand, but other soft redirects still get a redirect flag. If you see that quarry link I put Education materials is an example I found of a soft redirect that got the flag. and had an entry in the redirect table. Darcyisverycute (talk) 13:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That's is not a soft redirect. It contains redirect=no in the url, a flag to explicitly DISABLE the redirect behaviour of a redirect. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Education materials looks like a hard redirect to me: clicking on that link takes me to the category, not the redirect page. (Your link is a URL containing redirect=no.) Do you have another example? Certes (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, hmm.. I guess you are both right. I wonder why it did not hard redirect me the first time I visited it. I had just used the No redirect template... what am I thinking!? I had just pulled something randomly from article namespace in Category:Redirects to category space thinking it would be a soft redirect since Soft redirect says it's meant to be, but you are right it's not. After trying for a couple of actually soft redirects I can see the page_is_redirect isn't flagged either. I will ask a different question: is there a way to tell apart soft and hard redirects in Quarry? Maybe it is worth adding on mw:Manual:Redirect table that it does not include soft redirects. (I could be wrong about this, I only did a manual test of one soft redirect at query/66107, but this seems fairly confusing.) Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Pedantically, you can tell apart soft and hard redirects in Quarry because soft redirects have page_is_redirect=0 and hard redirects have page_is_redirect=1. However, it's harder to distinguish soft redirects from normal pages such as articles.  "Real" soft redirects, which are intentional and long-term, usually have one of the templates listed at WP:SOFTTEMP, detectable with a join to templatelinks; alternatively you could check the categories listed below there with a join to categorylinks.  Detecting temporary redirects due to CSDs is harder; it's probably simplest just to look for the CSD template itself by checking templatelinks for Db-r2 and similar. Certes (talk) 14:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) My attempt: query/66107 seems to work good enough for what I needed it for. A little slow but good enough. Darcyisverycute (talk) 15:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Besides missing soft redirects that don't have any templates from the R-from family - even ones tagged with a variant of soft redirect - this will also pick up pages with non-redirect templates starting with "Template:R ", like R class and R (programming language). Instead of looking for templates like 'R\_%', try ones categorized in Category:Redirect templates. —Cryptic 16:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Good point. I see a small problem though, if this is going to capture everything, then it needs to do a deepcat recursion on category:Templates for redirects based on association or synonymy‎, etc, which seems to have max depth 6 at category:Templates for ISO redirects‎. I'm not sure what is the best way to emulate deepcat in SQL, I've updated query/66107 for my best attempt but it doesn't work. It may be easier to manually exclude the two examples you've given and any others if they exist. Darcyisverycute (talk) 17:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * By the way this idea was for query/66230 which works reasonably well now. I'm going to bed now, I'll work on this more tomorrow. Thanks Darcyisverycute (talk) 17:31, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As the name suggests, CSD tags come and go speedily, but the database used by Quarry can lag by a few minutes. The database may still record a redirect as hard for a short while after a tag made it soft, and may still record a soft redirect for a short while after an admin has deleted the tagged page. Certes (talk) 14:00, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. I was not sure how much the replica and main database both lag behind and I was noticing that a little bit. Darcyisverycute (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * See https://replag.toolforge.org/ — xaosflux  Talk 15:50, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Fundamentally it comes down to this: a page is only a (hard) redirect if the very first line consists of the characters  (case-insensitive), optional whitespace, a wikilink and optional additional content (such as a category or a redirect template). In the case of the examples in the original post, they were tagged for CSD by inserting the  or  tag above the redirect directive, thus moving it down to the second line and thus the page is no longer a redir. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Asking about warning
Hello! There are viewing a warning note in every subpages of javascript. For example: see this one. How can I solve it?-- Abdullah ☆ (Talk) 09:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * It's a permanent warning intended to educate you and cannot be removed or solved. It says "if you don't understand what you are doing, then this can potentially hurt your account". —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It can be removed by hiding it with this in :
 * It doesn't "solve" anything but just hides it from display. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:10, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter thanks. I have added the code and successfully removed.-- Abdullah ☆ (Talk) 12:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter thanks. I have added the code and successfully removed.-- Abdullah ☆ (Talk) 12:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Logentry-pagetriage-copyvio-insert
Would it be possible to change so that parameter $4 is changed into a link to Special:Permalink/$4 (I don't recall, but if you can reuse the numbered parameter, it might even work as a param to e.g. Special:Diff/$4 so we could have a permalink and a diff right from the log)? Currently the log entries just contain a raw revision ID that is not clickable. See Special:Log/pagetriage-copyvio for examples. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's probably possible (it's hard to tell what will work in a specific MediaWiki message without trying it), but do we really want a log of links to potentially illegal content? PrimeHunter (talk) 02:39, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't matter, in the long run if it is a copyvio, it'll be WP:REVDEL'd anyways, so the links won't work unless you have the correct permissions. The current setup makes it more difficult than it needs to be to quickly check something and act on it though. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:51, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Feel free to open an edit request at MediaWiki talk:Logentry-pagetriage-copyvio-insert, this message is fairly backstage so I'm not too worried about trying it, maybe something like  would work there.  I don't think we have that set up on testwiki to try there. —  xaosflux  Talk 12:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Template transcluding categories and SD
Get short description transcludes the target page to find the short description, but it also seems to transclude the categories and short description. Trying wrapping it in , or using doesn't seem to work either. (Reposted due to a lack of response). &#8213;  Qwerfjkl talk  20:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Image apparently targeted by an improperly named link
After seeing the edit summary here, I looked at File:General-Shigenori-Kuroda.png; that navigated to File:IJA Japanese Major wearing an M98 tropical uniform.png. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what your question is. The file was moved on Commons and left behind a redirect. It is confusing that Commons shows the "(Redirected from File:General-Shigenori-Kuroda.png)", while on enwiki, the redirect target is shown, the "Redirected from" is not shown, and the URL is not updated. I've found from six years ago. --rchard2scout (talk) 12:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Þjarkur/Restorer.js
Hello. I want to install User:Þjarkur/Restorer.js in all wiki except bnwiki. Which code I should use in my global.js?-- Abdullah ☆ (Talk) 09:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @MdaNoman see mw:Help:Extension:GlobalCssJs. — xaosflux  Talk 13:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Section title errors with Twinkle?
I'm seeing this afternoon an issue with Twinkle warnings. They are writing up and duplicating the sets of == in the section titles, so instead of "July 2022" it's showing as "== July 2022 ==".

Is this occurring for others? This is one example, another is the one I left at the bottom of my own talk page (as a test) if you need visual examples.

If this is not the correct place to report a Twinkle issue, how and where would I go about getting this reported/fixed? Thanks, Zinnober9 (talk) 20:34, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It's been reported to WT:Twinkle. Note that it's Thursday, so that may be a factor.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    20:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you! Zinnober9 (talk) 21:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Re: Font sizes on iPad Pro
Otherwise known as Fabricator bug # T311119.After absence of a few days, I opened a page on Wikipedia to find the font sizes were suddenly very small. Since I reported this bug, I have gotten a bit more skilled with managing features on my iPad, & found I could easily adjust the font sizes in Wikipedia -- which was not the case up to a few days ago. (The log in Fabricator claims the bug was fixed over a month ago, but until today I never saw any improvement.In other words, something happened to fix this bug, & while I don't claim to know what was changed, feel duty bound to pass this information along. (Maybe my bug was not the one reported in Fabricator? Or maybe there was a caching issue that caused a delay in my seeing the fix?) -- llywrch (talk) 04:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * You probably also experienced T311795, which was fixed this week. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

finding redlinks
Hello. I am asking this for Marathi Wikipedia (mrwiki). A similar question was asked a few years ago by user:अभय नातू at Wikipedia talk:Red link/Archive 6, but the discussion didn't give out any results.In short: there are around 90k articles on Marathi Wikipedia, and tons of orphan articles, and redlinks (often incorrect spellings). Is there any way to find/create a list of articles containing redlinks? Regards, —usernamekiran (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Usernamekiran not exactly what you are asking, but if their goal is to go through their redlinks, Special:Wantedpages will list them in order of how many times each redlink is called. — xaosflux  Talk 14:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * yup, found it at mr:विशेष:हवे असलेले लेख. Thanks a lot for your help. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Communicating with IPv6 anons
With reference to Mobile communication bugs, we've also got a serious problem communicating with IPv6 users. I'm not sure where any centralized discussion of this may have been held recently.

Since IPv6 works differently than v4, not many of us understand it very well. One of its fundamental principles is the 64-bit Interface Identifier. In practice, every consumer who is assigned an IPv6 address receives 64 bits worth of space to play with. Therefore the first 64 bits may remain quite stable to identify a single customer and the last 64 bits may change at the drop of a hat!

Therefore, almost every IPv6 user is also an IP-hopper, whether we like it or not. Every IPv6 user has potentially 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 user talk pages! Every IPv6 user who edits over a long period of time is going to rack up talk pages and disparate contributions like the most prolific socking IP-hopping vandal we've ever seen.

So the net result is that we cannot know the history of an IPv6 user's warnings and communications. We can look back through their /64's contributions and see which addresses they've used, but the process of reviewing each talk page (and looking into its history for deleted warnings) is daunting, laborious, and ... ain't nobody got time for dat. If I drop a warning or a friendly message to an IPv6, by the time I'm done writing it they've already moved on to greener pastures, and will never ever see those talk messages again. MediaWiki naively believes they don't belong together, but they do. No IPv6 user can ever enjoy a meaningful body of communication with other editors over any period of time.

So, I don't know what the WMF has in store for anonymization. Perhaps this is all moot when they remove IP-based identification from the Wiki as I suppose is in the works? Will this particular issue become obsolete at that point?

How far off is that future? Is there any mitigation for it until then? Elizium23 (talk) 04:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Perhaps this is all moot when they remove IP-based identification from the Wiki Yes, this issue will be fixed due to the method selected as a replacement for tracking an unregistered contributor ("session-based"). Izno (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * This appears to be getting discussed in T112325. — xaosflux  Talk 14:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Block button on dropdown menu
Just now I was going through UAA, and I noticed on my dropdown menu the Block option was in much bigger text than anything else. It's so large it's displacing the options immediately around it. I'm on an iPhone in desktop mode, using the default skin, and I have a few scripts that show up on the dropdown menu in addition to the standard delete and block options. Anyone else noticing something similar? The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 14:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @The Blade of the Northern Lights can you be a bit more specific? For example, here is your userpage, in vector, in safemode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights?useskin=vector&safemode=1 "Block" isn't in a "drop down menu", it is on the left sidebar. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the confusion. It's under the "more" tab between the watchlist star and the Twinkle dropdown. I'm sure there's a proper term for it, I just don't know. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 14:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @The Blade of the Northern Lights ah ok, it looks like that is a personal userscript you are importing, User:Animum/easyblock.js. The maintainer for that script hasn't really been active since 2015, you may want to stop using that one. If someone has a fix to propose, they can try dropping an edit request at User talk:Animum/easyblock.js. — xaosflux  Talk 14:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Not sure why it started acting up today of all days, but no reason to keep something that dated. Thanks! (Also, if anyone knows any maintained scripts that do something similar, I'd give one of those a try) The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 15:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Seeing redirect pages to section while editing
Is there any sort of script that exists or other implementation that is able to show when editing a section if there are redirect pages currently targeted to that section? I know one can go to the "What links here" and select only redirects for any page to see this, but I didn't know if there was the ability to see this while editing or previewing a page. I'm thinking it as a way to know what is linking to a section in question, in the event the heading needs to be altered or the section gets moved elsewhere to a more relevant page (if applicable), to know if anchors need to be added, or at the very least to be aware of such pages to help fix redirect locations without leaving them potentially broken. Thanks. (Also apologies if this isn't the correct location to inquire about such a thing.) - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

External links picture changed. Where's the discussion of that?
My external links under Vector 2010 are now displaying as the indicator. Anyone know where's this change is coming from and why and where the discussion would be? Jason Quinn (talk) 14:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * the technical answer to your question is: see T261391. — xaosflux  Talk 14:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Great. Thank you. Rather than an image, I wonder if a UNICODE character like ⧉ or 🔗 would satisfy the web design guidelines they are following. Jason Quinn (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is also under discussion at WP:VPPRO, but the change has been reverted for the moment. Izno (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Italic title at 2000 Summer Olympics opening ceremony
Can someone explain to me why this article displays an italic title, and how to change it. I see no in the article, and  doesn't seem to carry automatic italics either. StAnselm (talk) 18:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * just by brute force previewing, it was something in the "Music" section. I have split that out into a separate article on the album, which has resolved the problem. BD2412  T 18:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, of course - the album infobox. Thanks. StAnselm (talk) 19:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Unwanted italics in the title are nearly always from an infobox somewhere in the page. Infobox album supports . PrimeHunter (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Automated index function
Hi all, carrying on this question from the help desk. Wikipedia has a number of index pages that show all the pages in a given top-level category in an A-Z format, for example Sociology. However, for the ones that I am interested in they are produced manually and often require a significant amount of work to make sure all the pages are included/ makes it difficult to keep up-to-date as new pages are created.

I was wondering if anyone knew of any wikicode, template, or other functionality that might allow for all the pages to be displayed on a page alphabetically based on a specific parent category. Essentially, to display all the pages located within "Sociology", but instead of something like a category tree, it would show all the individual pages nested within that category A-Z.

Thank you for any help you can give, and if I need to ask this elsewhere do let me know. If this is indeed a new kind of feature request, please do let me know where best to ask for this feature to be created. Jamzze (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Jamzze would Special:CategoryTree work for you? — xaosflux  Talk 14:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If so there are lots of things you can do with it, see mw:Extension:CategoryTree for documentation. — xaosflux  Talk 14:17, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing this. From what I can read, this function does not present the pages alphabetically, but via their categories - unless I am reading it wrong? If so, this would not work out for an index. Jamzze (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorting for the output of category tree is included in the 10+ year old task T32753. Pages in categories are sorted on the category pages themselves(c.f. Category:Sociology). Keep in mind that categories are not a tree-hierarchy, but more of a spiderweb-hierarchy and may contain loops, forks, and deadends - which can make this difficult. For example on the "index" for "Sociology" would you want the article on Uniform Map, because if you transverse the category tree you will eventually get there.  If so, it sounds like you want an enhancement request to mw:Extension:CategoryTree and you could start asking about it on mw:Extension talk:CategoryTree. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Can't 's output be regexed with Lua, ? — Guarapiranga ☎ 01:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * At the time Lua sees it, it's inside a strip marker. Izno (talk) 02:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Can't it be unstrip'd? — Guarapiranga ☎ 03:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The only unstripping Lua can do is the nowiki marker, which is what unstrip does. A nowiki strip marker is only one kind of strip marker. Izno (talk) 03:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Right! Got it. Thanks. — Guarapiranga ☎ 03:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Xaosflux @Guarapiranga @Izno for all your inputs - some of this is far beyond my knowledge, so will link this to the pages Xaosflux suggested! Jamzze (talk) 12:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it is an two step process. For an external list you could use petscan. You need to use the settings in order to sort the results, it does not do that by default. If this would be automated it would probably done with bots, pywikipediabot and AWB both can make lists, but do not do what you want out of the box, so some coding is needed.--Snævar (talk) 16:58, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Jamzze (talk) 12:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion: automate the display of CS1 maintenance messages
So, I was editing a page, and when I clicked the "Show preview" button, a warning text was displayed:

Script warning: One or more templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help). Script warning: One or more templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help).

The "help" links were to Help:CS1 errors § Controlling error message display, which advises the user to include some code in "your common CSS page or your specific skin's CSS page (common.css and skin.css respectively)".

I was able to accomplish this task, but didn't see the maintenance messages before purging the page, which required another non-trivial step.

I suggest that this procedure is too complicated for the average editor, and should be automated.

If there's a warning concerning maintenance messages when previewing a page, there could be a simple button or slider that would toggle between showing and not showing the maintenance messages. Perhaps clicking the button or sliding the slider would also include the purge step, so that the user would not be stumped?

I started a discussion about this on the talk page of the template, and I've linked from there to the present section. I suggest discussion on this suggestion be continued here, not on the talk page.

On that talk page, user Trappist the monk has replied to my suggestion with the following: "It is not possible to automate the procedure because only you or those few editors with interface editing privileges can edit your .css page(s). Apparently you figured it out. If you can think of a better way to describe what needs to be done, edit the current description to make it better."

Perhaps it's not possible for most others to edit my .css page, but that just means that the procedure I suggest should not have to rely on the user's CSS. I'm not familiar with the details of coding the underlying system, but surely it should not be very difficult to toggle between displaying and not displaying these maintenance messages? Teemu Leisti (talk) 15:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems that what you suggest is way beyond the scope of any single group of user-developed modules.
 * It is true that this is too complicated for the average editor. This is so because it involves above-average editing. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 16:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It is in fact something that cannot be simplified. There are alternatives as complicated as the way provided, and those ways are more complicated for the maintainers of the systems of interest, so this is the way that is recommended. Izno (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what can be "automated", but other additional error messages (like User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js) can be enabled by technically less competent editors (I find reading Latin easier than reading CSS) via the gadget User:Enterprisey/script-installer. Is it possible to write a userscript that makes this easy without changing the underlying CSS method? —Kusma (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * How about a gadget "Display hidden maintenance messages (help)"? The help link would go to a page listing which types of mesages are displayed (e.g. As of) and how to control them individually with user CSS instead of the gadget. I don't think we should make a gadget only for the CS1 messages discussed here. Several gadgets for different types of messages would clutter up Special:Preferences where we try to limit the number of gadgets. Scripts which add messages instead of just unhiding existing messages wouldn't be covered by the suggested gadget. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A  link (and a Mediawiki css pages containing the CSS) might work. &#8213;  Qwerfjkl  talk  19:47, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether withCSS can be used in previews but it should at least work in a link to the saved version of the page. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:15, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, so it doesn't look like there's great enthusiasm for my suggestion, and it's not really super important anyway. So never mind, I guess. Teemu Leisti (talk) 00:12, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Openstreetmap based maps on Wikipedia
I had a question about what to do to fix the openstreetmap-based map that I am trying to put into this one page. On the Ahmedabad-Dholera Expressway page, you can see that I have added the source code but something is still wrong. I have added all the source code but the base map does not show up in the infobox as it should. A correct example of this is on the page Bundelkhand Expressway where the expressway is outlined in red and shows up in the info box. I know that you have to get the wiki data tag and put that into the source code in order for it to work and I did do that. But it still seems to not be working and I was wondering if someone could guide me so that I can see what I am doing wrong in adding these maps. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, - User:Yellow alligator 	 18:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Bundelkhand Expressway gets its map data from its Wikidata item (wikidata:Q48730051). This data most likely comes from it's Google Knowledge Graph ID (/g/11f2wbm55j). This knowledge graph already has a map which is simply copied on Wikipedia. Now, Ahmedabad–Dholera Expressway's knowledge graph ID (/g/11j8kw9dpj) doesn't contain a map. There is no source from which we can extract a map. That's why a map isn't visible. If you can manually recreate the route online, Creating route maps from OpenStreetMap data may guide you through the process to add a new map yourself. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 23:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Yellow alligator: ping. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 07:01, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I just noticed this A-D-Expressway is still under construction. I think we should wait till it gets completed. Infrastructure projects may never even get completed. Venkat TL (talk) 07:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Delhi
Hi, for some reason the photo montage is pushed to the side and From left to right caption sticking out at the top. Can somebody move the "From left to right" to underneath the photos so the images neatly span the width of the infobox? Looks ugly sticking out like that!♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Dr. Blofeld, it displays fine for me (on a tablet in portrait mode). &#8213;  Qwerfjkl talk  12:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm on PC at the moment. Mumbai looks fine, Delhi montage is bunched to the left with a big white gap down the right due to the caption.. See screenshot ♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Weird, when I change the multiple image's width down to 100, I also see the caption beside the images. But, this time the caption is to the left of images. At the current width (250), my screen shows infobox as expected. Noting that reducing Mumbai's width down to 100 doesn't change the position of image caption. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 13:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The floating alignment is the problem. Now centered —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Gracias !♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:58, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

"Talk pages are where people discuss how to make content on Wikipedia the best that it can be"
I very strongly dislike seeing this on redlinked talk pages. Never liked it to begin with and am fed up with it now. I would rather it just take me to a blank editing window like old times. Sometimes I'm making redirects or disambig pages that need talk pages in a hurry (some redirect pages meet the criteria for having talk pages, e.g. song title redirects to album pages which is what I work on sometimes). It would be a lot quicker and less annoying to be able to cut straight to the chase and skip this banner, like before — in fact, like earlier just this year. Is there any way to disable this, or do we really need it for any group of users? Zeke, the Mad Horrorist  (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 07:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You may be able to change this behaviour in Special:Preferences, section Discussion pages, item When I visit a discussion page that hasn't been created yet:. Certes (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That certainly seems to have worked. The only place I can see it may not have taken effect is on talk pages for user subpages (e.g. any uncreated archives for my talk page will result in the same type of message, and in their case it seems unskippable), but I don't care since I obviously won't be working in user subpages with any frequency at all. For those interested, this is what you do — go to Preferences, Editing, and scroll down until you see:
 * When I visit a discussion page that hasn't been created yet:
 * Offer to add new topic
 * Open the wikitext editor
 * "Offer to add new topic" is the default. Switch to "Open the wikitext editor".
 * Many thanks for your help! Zeke, the Mad Horrorist  (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Pass parameters to parsed interface messages
How do I pass parameters to interface messages in an API parse request? doesn't work, that outputs "This page is currently semi-protected so that only established, registered users can $2 it." (when it should say fully protected and "$2" should be "add rubbish to") — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 18:46, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The wikitext method is to use  at mw:Help:Magic words:  . I guess that works for your purpose. If you are logged in then it uses the message in your language setting at Special:Preferences. We usually only customize en messages. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * PrimeHunter, that works indeed. Makes sense, I hadn't realized int: would affect this. Thanks! <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1659295437192:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 19:23, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Search box and default zoom messed up while using desktop on mobile
Something strange is happening when using the desktop version of Wikipedia on mobile. For one, when moving to a new page on Wikipedia, the page is zoomed in quite a bit on the top-left side of the page where the Wikipedia logo/link is located. In addition, the search bar on the top right of the page is considerably smaller than it used to be ... like less than half its previous size. I have confirmed this issue exists on multiple browsers (Safari [I'm using an iPhone] and Firefox) and persisted after I cleared my browsers' cache and cookies. This problem occurs while using either the "Vector legacy (2010)" or the "Vector (2022)" skin. Steel1943 (talk) 20:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Happening with Chrome too. Annoying! Neiltonks (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Happening to me too. Came here to post but this was already here. Please revert the changes. — python coder (talk &#124; contribs) 22:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This has been the case on all other wikis for some two days. Only now also on enwiki. I posted on Commons when it first started there: c:Commons:Village pump/Technical.Jonteemil (talk) 22:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The "Edit source" button on SVG files, for example File:FK Mladost GAT logo.svg, also became messed up at the same time the other problems arose. 1. Can you reproduce this? 2. Is this also because of T311795? Edit: I could only reproduce this using the "Vector legacy (2010)" skin. Jonteemil (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Anyone know what to do on Phabricator to hopefully get this resolved? Apparently, putting comments on a ticket in "RESOLVED" status goes nowhere. Steel1943  (talk) 11:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I reopened the ticket linked above. Not sure if I’m “supposed” to do that but this needs to get fixed. — python coder (talk &#124; contribs) 20:39, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Chrome mobile issue
For some reason within the last few hours when I load a Wikipedia page using Chrome on my mobile device, the page appears bigger than my screen. I can easily zoom it back down, but I didn't have to do this before. I don't think I changed any settings. Any ideas? 331dot (talk) 00:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Duplicate of ?Jonteemil (talk) 01:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming this is a side effect of T311795, which was needed because of T306910. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Same issue experienced by me too, on MS Edge on Android. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Same issue experienced by me too, on MS Edge on Android. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Cite recovery
I am sure that in the past when I deleted list cites a bot came round and fixed the cites. But that has not happened yet at European emission standards. I cannot remember the name of the bot Chidgk1 (talk) 11:43, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There's an easy way to fix this: revert your edit that removed references, and edit the article instead of doing fly-by deletions that may contravene policy. If you actually edit an article you will be able to tell which references are necessary. It is a lot of work, of the most uninspiring sort, and you will not be rewarded. So that's it. Another option (a fairly common one) is to come at VP and complain about this thing or another. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 15:52, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're thinking of AnomieBOT (which you probably are), it doesn't handle refs defined by screwy templates like r. Anomie⚔ 15:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is "screwy"? 68.132.154.35 (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * this is a really bad approach to editing live pages. You are knowingly removing refs that you know are likely in-use. That's a detriment to readers and bumps up against WP:V policy up until the time they get re-added. It might be transient (but now you know it might not be), but even if so, it's better to have unused refs (no obvious harm). DMacks (talk) 16:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining - for this particular article manually editing to remove unused refs will likely not be too time consuming for someone (probably not me as they are not doing much harm). For the previous 2 - where the bot worked very well thanks - there were far too many used and unused old-style refs to edit manually. Chidgk1 (talk) 06:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * "Flagging unused list-defined references" seems like a well-defined feature-request. That help-page notes "All references in reference list must be referenced in the content, otherwise an error message will be shown." and Help:Cite errors/Cite error references missing group says this error message should be easily visible. At least for mainspace and default ref-group, it explicitly says which ref-name is unused. For example, the version prior to your edit at European emission standards said (links omitted):


 * Cite error: A list-defined reference named "BBC 6337057" is not used in the content (see the help page).
 * Cite error: A list-defined reference named "EC" is not used in the content (see the help page).
 * Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Europa 1" is not used in the content (see the help page).
 * Cite error: A list-defined reference named "IHT 2007/02/06" is not used in the content (see the help page).


 * So if there are lot of them, you have to spend a moment finding each in the list, but it's mindless and easy. And it also doesn't seem to work in all namespaces (does in main, not in user), so that's an annoyance for out-of-mainspace article development and discussion. DMacks (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Chidgk1 this is clearly a "bad edit", and I've reverted it. You should never assume that any future edit will ever be made. —  xaosflux  Talk 16:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Can I get a list of most common first words for article titles?
I do a fair amount of anthroponymy work, and have gotten to wondering where there might be gaps in our coverage of common given names. To that end, I'm curious as to whether it would be possible to generate a list of number of articles in Wikipedia by first whole word (e.g., how many articles start with "Albert" or "Gerry" or "Zane" as a word, followed by a space, followed by another word). I would want to exclude redirects, and I think it would be reasonable to cut it off (for a first run) at words that have more than 50 articles starting with that word.

If such a list already exists, please point me to it. Cheers! BD2412 T 18:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 19:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If "exclude redirects" isn't that important you can download the list of all article titles here and then just do some datamining on it. — xaosflux  Talk 18:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Suppose you could "minus out" from the list of redirects file — xaosflux  Talk 18:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't particularly have the kung fu to do that kind of data mining. I'm just looking for the assist. BD2412  T 18:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The following SQL query should do it:  I went ahead and ran it for you at query/66345. Unsurprisingly, the top words are "List" and "The", but then you start to get names such as John, William, James, Robert, David, George, THomas, Charles, etc. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * Fascinating. Thanks, this is perfect. BD2412  T 19:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I developed the query a little further to limit it to people and to exclude names which already have (or redirect to) an article, here. Most results are still false positives.  "List" has gone, but "The" still hangs in there due to The Weeknd, etc. and there are a few other non-names such as Sir.  Names like Jesús redirect to a dab with a name article as one entry; eliminating such cases in SQL would be way too slow.  (The query is already ridiculously complex because the SQL implementation fails to use an index on page_title when given a prefix, insisting on one single exact title.) Certes (talk) 00:44, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Eliminating the numerical and organizational prefixes is a help, thanks. BD2412  T 00:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Searching and sorting the deletion log by reason
Is there an efficient way to search through the deletion log by reason, e.g., XfD closures/expired PROD/specific CSD criteria? If there isn't a script or tool available for this, would it be technically possible to implement in a similar manner to searching/sorting the log by user? User:Pppery and I were having a short discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion, as such a feature could be very helpful to those who may be interested in reviewing deletions. Complex / Rational 01:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Template doc header
Well friends, I'm stumped again – isn't the first time and won't be the last. Seems that a recent change automated the application of Documentation subpage to not just template /doc pages but also to all the redirects to those pages. An example is, which targets its associated template /doc page. My own humble opinion is that the doc header shouldn't be on redirects, it should only go on actual template documentation pages. Placing the doc header on all subpages named "/doc" gives an incorrect transclusion number for the "Documentation subpage" template. I think the interface page that transcludes the template is MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header, however I'm not certain of that. Just wondered if any of youse-much-more-savvy-than-I technical minds can figure a way to remove the doc header from all the /doc page redirects?  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 12:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The only think I can think of is to use a module for checking whether a page is a redirect or not. Module:Redirect should work (using its  feature). Then, we can put a test on the MediaWiki page to see if the page is a redirect, and hide the header if it is. --ais523 12:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! that's what I was thinking, too. I just want to be sure we have the correct MW page before we put an edit request on its talk page. I'm not too strong when it comes to modules, so I'd need help with adding the  feature to the interface page.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;,  ed.  put'r there 13:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Talkpage redirects
with auto-generated text, this time it asks editors to discuss the sandbox page. And of course redirects are not the place for discussion, not even talk-page redirects. I don't think these are being tested so as to eliminate usage on certain pages. They're just being "hopefully applied". I can identify with that; however, these messages on redirects should be erased.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 19:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've now created redirect other, which (assuming that it works in MediaWiki:-space; I think it will, but MediaWiki:-space is weird sometimes) should make it easy to implement a change like this. (Note that the template will need to be fully-protected in order to be usable as part of the site interface.) --ais523 23:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

So, does anyone know with relative certainty which pages in the MediaWiki namespace apply the Doc subpage and the talk page templates in question? I'd like to place edit requests to remove those templates from redirects where they should not be.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 14:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Paine Ellsworth MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header and MediaWiki:Watchlist-messages seem to be the only pages that use it unconditionally (the latter because it's a template used in MediaWiki:-space which has a documentation subpage of its own, in MediaWiki talkspace – it doesn't show up when looking at the watchlist, only when looking at the page directly). I've been trying to construct a search for conditional uses, but haven't found one that works yet. I suggest putting in an edit request for MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header first, and then we can check if there are still problems elsewhere. --ais523 12:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, editor ! An edit request has been opened at MediaWiki talk:Scribunto-doc-page-header, which suggests the use of your Redirect other template. Haven't been able to find a page in MediaWiki namespace that applies the incorrectly to talkpage redirects, so that one might need a bug report to fix.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;,  ed.  put'r there 20:14, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, the challenge of removing the doc subpage template has been met and fixed with. Still looking for help and guidance as pertains to the automatically placed invitation to discuss found on all talkpage redirects, such as. Don't know if there is a similar page in the MediaWiki namespace, where I can place a fully-protected edit request, or if this is something the devs need to fix directly.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 22:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Seems to be more than one Phab page that discusses something similar, such as, so it does appear that this is up to the devs to fix. Talkpage redirects especially do not need the new talkpage tool that suggests that editors begin a discussion directly on the redirect talkpage.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 23:25, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

of an uncreated talk page of a redirect that has the invitation to create the talk page on it. That notice must also be removed from those, as we don't really want to stimulate new editors to create a talk page and discussion that virtually nobody will read. That new discussion should be opened on the subject page redirect's target's talk page, where involved editors will read it.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 16:29, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

A third case was found at Phab. It's the case when a redirect has already been created and is not itself a redirect, such as at Talk:Erase (song). That page went to AfD and was then bot-tagged with. That also happens frequently, and as can be seen, the talk page also has the invitation to start a discussion about the subject-page redirect. I've suggested at Phab that the invitation should be removed from those pages as well, because we don't want new editors to think that such a page is watched enough to ensure a response.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 02:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Lua error
What causes multiple red messages "Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1 at line 1392" here? I suspect this has something to do with introduced Template:Harvard citation no brackets, but can't find the error in wikimarkup. Thanks. Brandmeistertalk  13:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The citation templates are broken right now. There is nothing you can do about it. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:10, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, will wait, as per another complaint below. Any word about time of fixing? Brandmeistertalk  13:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Issue has been resolved now <span style="font-family:Segoe print; color:#FF8C00; text-shadow:skyblue 0.5em 0.5em 0.5em; font-weight:bold">Kpddg  (talk)  13:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good now, whew! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Help needed fixing Lua errors
The Clarence Campbell article has multiple Lua errors. Does anyone know where to ask for help, or could be a hero and fix the problems? Flibirigit (talk) 13:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 13:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The citation templates are broken right now. There is nothing you can do about it. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:09, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Where is the place for updates? Help talk:Citation Style 1 is not the place.  Bluerasberry   (talk)  13:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is it related to this edit ('bump pmc')? I lack the WP:Boldness to mess with modules :) Dsp13 (talk) 13:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * How on earth did this get rolled out without testing it fully first?! Citations broken all over the encyclopedia! MeegsC (talk) 13:12, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems to be everywhere,. I get it on all my citation efforts today.  Also, a thread at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. — Maile  (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can fix the problem, as you're an admin, by undoing the edit Dsp13 linked to above. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 13:14, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * User who did it inactive 20 minutes since edit User_talk:Trappist_the_monk Only admin can undo  Bluerasberry   (talk)  13:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks like has fixed it now. If you're still seeing errors, you may need to do a WP:PURGE on articles with the errors. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * I don't think it's fixed. It's still happening. — Maile  (talk) 13:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, it's fine now. — Maile (talk) 13:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello. Same error is happening on the article page references Wild Rift. ✍A.WagnerC (talk) 13:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Clive Stephen - refs replaced with Lua error
I also was going fine with Clive Stephen but now I seem to have lost all references - most are replaced by "Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1 at line 1392: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got nil)." I've tried reverting to earlier versions, but without result. Thank you for any help. Jamesmcardle(talk) 13:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See the above thread. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 13:19, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

"Lua error in module citation"
I have noticed that the references I've added suddenly have the Lua error in module citation... I do not know anything about what this means, and I do not know if this is the correct venue to report it, but I'd be glad if I knew how to prevent such events. At this version of today the sources appear alright, in this one a few hours later and after only introducing a wikilink, Kurdish Theatre in Turkey has the Lua error. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:23, 1 August 2022 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 13:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue has been resolved. You may need to do a WP:PURGE on any pages still showing the error. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * Oh, it appears I am not the first to report the Lua errors... Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you all Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

List of 'list articles' by page views
I want to generate a list of 'list articles' (List of United States Presidents, List of medieval composers etc.) by page views, but trying to do so on pageviews.wmcloud.org has (inevitably) been too large of a request to load. Does anyone know of an better way, or can do so for me? Looking for say, top 50 list articles.  Aza24  (talk)   07:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

For example, doing mass page views on this category of 139,979+ articles does not work on my computer.  Aza24  (talk)   18:44, 30 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Like a... list of lists? — Guarapiranga ☎ 01:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Not really, I'm trying to see what the most viewed lists are (order them by page views), to get ideas of what to work on.  Aza24  (talk)   04:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I see... Somewhat like that? — Guarapiranga ☎ 04:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * How about looking at (and which haven't), as a proxy (presumably, lists popular with readers are also popular with editors)? — Guarapiranga ☎ 04:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The top 73 "List of..." articles appear on User:HostBot/Top 1000 report (along with hundreds of non-list articles). Certes (talk) 09:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you to both Guarapiranga and Certes! These pages should definitely help! –  Aza24  (talk)   19:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-31
<section begin="technews-2022-W31"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Improved LaTeX capabilities for math rendering are now available in the wikis thanks to supporting <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> tags. This completes part of the #59 wish of the 2022 Community Wishlist Survey.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * The Realtime Preview will be available as a Beta Feature on wikis in Group 0. This feature was built in order to fulfill one of the Community Wishlist Survey proposals.

Future changes
 * The Beta Feature for DiscussionTools will be updated throughout August. Discussions will look different.  You can see some of the proposed changes.

Future meetings
 * This week, three meetings about Vector (2022) with live interpretation will take place. On Tuesday, interpretation in Russian will be provided. On Thursday, meetings for Arabic and Spanish speakers will take place. See how to join.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W31"/>

21:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Template display glitch
Looks like there's a minor glitch with how the unblock-spamun template displays. On several occasions, I have noticed users requesting an unblock with this template, but preceded with an indent (colon). When doing this, the border and background color that normally surrounds the text instead appears as a thin one-line box above it. Removing the indent fixes the display issue. Otherwise, the template still functions normally and the unblock request appears normally in CAT:UNB. I don't know if any other templates are affected by this issue. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 15:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The only way to fix this is removal of the colon, indeed. Izno (talk) 16:22, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A number of box-type templates will break if indented - this typically shows as some (or all) of the text being ejected outside the box. The easiest fix is not to indent them. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I wonder how many of those people are using the [reply] tool in wikitext source mode. (Its visual mode has templates disabled to avoid this problem.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Keeps logging me out
Some time in the last half hour or so, the interface starting doing a bizarre thing: I am logged in and start making an edit. When I try to preview or save, it says I am not logged in. If I try to log in it saves the page, but NOT THE CHANGES I was making and says I am logged in. Then it repeats the cycle and says I'm not logged in again when I try to edit. Goin' home now folks. I should note that I'm using the source editor. MaryMO (AR) (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * moved this here to VPT, a better forum forum for this issue. — xaosflux  Talk 00:34, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @MaryMO (AR), Login problems can be caused by a bad cookie. If you're still having problems, try a WP:BYPASS; if that doesn't work, try safemode next.  Please let us know how things worked out. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:29, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , your cookie theory sounds promising; I have been okay today. Many thanks, MaryMO (AR) (talk) 00:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

gadget notice

 * (cross post from IANB)

EditNoticesOnMobile will be launching as a default gadget. It is limited to mobile users who are using Minerva skin. A waved approach is being done, wave one is only admins. Should something break, it can be instantly disabled via MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition. Please report any issues to Wikipedia talk:EditNoticesOnMobile. Best regards, — xaosflux  Talk 23:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Update: this has been expanded to wave 2 today, extendedconfirmed users. — xaosflux  Talk 17:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

New article review status indicator
There was some talk at the NPP talk page about having a maintenance tag on unreviewed new article that would explain why they weren't indexed for search engines and give a link to further information. This seemed like a good idea at first, but some were concerned it may be too obtrusive. Then there was a suggestion that we implement something like what the German WP has, a small "tab" at the upper right of the article, as seen here which says "Not examined (reviewed)" and links to a explanatory page.

Can anyone say what would be involved in doing something similar here. It doesn't look to me that it is part of the wikitext for the article, so is this some wikimedia software feature that we aren't using? <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 01:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

File version
A new version of a graphic has been uploaded to File:. It does not seem to be an improvement: the previous version is clearer and closer to the real-world object. I'm aware that no one visits File_talk:, and the usual BRD mechanism fails because there's no obvious way to revert an image change. The original and better version will be deleted in a week because it's now an unused non-free file. Does Wikipedia have any mechanism for discussing or boldly reverting image replacements? Certes (talk) 01:21, 3 August 2022 (UTC)


 * nk to the one being deleted?i <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(red, orange, green, blue, indigo, violet)">PRAXIDICAE🌈 01:22, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Always post a link or example when possible. The "File history" section (not the page history) on the file page should have "revert" links for old versions which haven't been deleted. If the file is at Commons then see the file page there. Very old versions may have no revert link. The best image is sometimes discussed at the main page where it's used. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I can't believe I didn't notice the revert link.  I usually give examples but didn't want to embarrass the uploader in this case. Certes (talk) 01:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Secured connection failed?
Browser Firefox 103.0.1 (32 bit), which just updated itself within the last week. Just within the last few hours, a "Save" action returns the message (random, but not every time) :


 * "Secure Connection Failed. An error occurred during a connection to en.wikipedia.org. The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because the authenticity of the received data could not be verified. Please contact the website owners to inform them of this problem."

It works fine if I try to save again. It's happened maybe two or three times today. May I assume this is related to what the latest Tech News tells us is, "The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 2 August. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 3 August. It will be on all wikis from 4 August"? — Maile (talk) 01:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Coordinates in Vector 2022
Hello, on the Desktop Improvements/Vector 2022 talk page on mediawiki.org, there's sort of a "bug report", but we at the WMF can't fix it. It's about something that's totally up to the local communities - in this case, the English Wikipedia community.

It's about coordinates. As you can see on this screenshot, these are too close to the FA and page protection icons. @Jdlrobson has shared two ways of fixing the issue. I think we can say now that we strongly recommend using the indicator tag, so Jon's Option 1. It requires changes to Module:Coordinates.

FYI.

Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:59, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF) Here is an example of a live overlapping page. Note, this template is used on over 1 million pages - so changes will need to be carefully considered and tested. Also, I think we'll need some editor to decide from a presentation viewpoint how this should be best laid out for our readers (assuming there certainly would be push back of "get that big language thing off of the top, it just sends readers away from our project!"). I actually sort of like coordinates where it is there - it is "content" after all; maybe the meta-indicators could move (perhaps to the left of the language bar??). —  xaosflux  Talk 23:44, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I replied on Phabricator, but I'll say again here that, as I've advocated elsewhere, I think the best place for the good/featured article icons is directly after the title, as that will make it far more prominent, which is needed for information literacy.
 * For the protection icons, I think that should be associated with the edit button, since the main question for most people related to protection is "can I, with my current permissions, edit this page"? Minerva Neue handles this quite well, where if you can edit the page, you get an edit button, and if not, it's grayed out or locked or something and explains why. There's a bit of value also for just letting readers know the protection level so that they can understand how vulnerable the article they're reading may be to vandalism, but that's secondary and I don't think requires a very prominent notifier. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Having core handle icons for protection is phab:T12347. Izno (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Authored By bzimport Jun 23 2007, 5:24 PM. Ugh. Will there ever be any technical issue where we don't spend 20× as much energy flagging it as it'd take to actually solve? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 04:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * One option to consider is making coordinates a first class citizen in skins. I made this POC to demonstrate one option which could be enabled on a skin basis.  You could display:none the current coordinates in that skin to buy more time. Let me know if you feel this approach has any legs and is worth pursuing further: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/GeoData/+/816009 Jdlrobson (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Sdkb thanks for these points. I agree regarding the protection icons. Seems like we've got a clear way forward there. Regarding placing the good/featured article icons directly after the title: firstly I agree that it would make them more prominent. The main question that comes up for me is: what kind of research/testing can we do to figure out how people interpret these icons? I think they have a lot of potential to help people understand the article quality, which could benefit the reading experience. But there is also a lack of standardization across wikis, and also possible confusion with other icons on the page (e.g. the Watchstar vs. the featured article star), which makes me curious to learn more about user experience before increasing the prominence. Interestingly a couple of years ago some folks at the foundation partnered with the HCI department at Carnegie Melon to do some related research, which you can read here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UCdW37reywLLc4r50pJHSQl3JfYxRHLU/view?usp=sharing.
 * In summary, I support the goal of learning more about how people understand the good/featured article icons which I think will enable us to find the appropriate location for them. This research could also give us useful insight into the design of the icons themselves. AHollender (WMF) (talk) 16:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @AHollender (WMF), thanks for engaging on this! I skimmed that CMU article, and it's quite interesting, although the evaluation tools it envisions sound technically very advanced. I'm not an expert in creating research/testing plans, but here are my thoughts.
 * Overall, our goal is to help readers be able to better judge quickly and easily how trustworthy the content they read is, so that they can decide how best to make use of it. To do that on a design level, we want to highlight factors that help with this decision enough to encourage readers to pay attention to them.
 * The first step is figuring out what those factors are. To answer that, you'd want to convene a focus group of experts in judging trustworthiness of information on Wikipedia and present them with articles to rapidly evaluate. Experienced Wikipedians, librarians or other researchers, and information scholars all might have relevant input. In a sense, you've already got a focus group of sorts of Wikipedians here; we can tell you that GA/FA stars are extremely important indicators when we're judging an article at a glance (other factors include presence of maintenance tags; references, sometimes aided by tools like Cite Unseen; and talk page activity).
 * Next, you'd want to convene a focus group of average readers and give them the same task. See if they use the same factors or different ones. If they completely ignore the GA/FA icons that the experts thought were crucial, you've established through testing the need to make them more prominent.
 * The last step would be figuring out the best way to do so. Danish Wikipedia already has GA/FA icons after the article title, e.g. here, so you could collect survey data from that. If the reader focus group is prompted to consider the icons, they'd probably also have thoughts. I agree with you that the current design of the icons is potentially an impediment to them being understood well.
 * Does all that help speak to your question? Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:13, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Sdkb - this is actually exactly the conversation we've been having internally over the past week :) 100% agree with you on the goal here "help readers be able to better judge quickly and easily how trustworthy the content they read is, so that they can decide how best to make use of it".  We were thinking about approaching this from a slightly different perspective though - providing some metadata (such as number of times an article has been edited, number of comments on the talk page, etc) on the article that would allow people to make a general decision on quality rather than going the way of the CMU study where the recommendation is already provided.  Our reasoning here is that this approach would not only allow readers to think more critically about the content they are reading, but also introduce them to the ways wikis work in a more subtle and cohesive way than we've done in the past, with the hope that more of them would potentially become interested in contribution.  I also think it would be better for smaller wikis where content is actively being developed as this approach lends itself more to a calibration of expectations based on the content of the wiki rather than in absolute.
 * We're still in the very early stages of planning this, hoping to finish the Vector (2022) deployment first before we begin to focus on a new project, but were actually starting on outlining some research with our Research team to identify factors of trust first. Our approach was to start with a literature review and then begin testing with readers and new editors directly - showing them different signals/pieces of metadata and looking at the way that affects trust towards the content itself as well as trust towards the site as a whole, but I like your idea on trying to do a sort of interview round first and collecting examples of potential signals that could affect trust from experts.  Hoping to have some more info on the project on-wiki soon and would definitely appreciate thoughts/feedback once that's up. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 11:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @OVasileva (WMF), that metadata presentation for readers sounds very interesting! It seems like something that can considered independently of the FA/GA icon location, though, so I'll reply on it on your talk page to keep discussion on topic here. Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 02:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This is in progress, but it's hard when very long standing conventions have to be adapted. There are all kinds of hacks and overrides in place and multiple variants of templates that get affected once we start messing with the coordinates id (of which Module:Coordinates is the most prominent and most visible user) AND we have to keep into account all the skins, not just the one. Because of that, everyone is just afraid to break things and that causes stagnation in making progress in implementing the solution.
 * Last but no least of all, even if we turn it into an indicator (which we really should), that doesn't mean the position and layout of the options makes sense to people. This has been conveniently ignored by the team so far, delegating the making of a new design to the communities, but the old design and positioning was a VERY old convention and is deeply settled in people's customs. Convincing people of a new layout in such a situation is challenging. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The "layout" question is something to deal with indeed. SGrabarczuk (WMF) and maybe - how much of this reading layout is going to be driven hard centrally, and how much is it lassie-faire for communities? Seems like we're already in the what tech changes to make stage - but the UX/UI layout regarding presentation of page meta-content isn't stable yet? I suppose the hard-line from mediawiki software side is: it works fine, stop putting these things on pages if you don't want them to break -- but our editors have found that this sort of content is well received with our readers. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux, I don't quite understand the last sentence. Could you rephrase? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 14:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF) in addition to the traditional "content" seen on pages, especially in encyclopedia articles, we have found it useful to inform readers and potential editors about meta-content, such as if we consider a page a quality page (FA, GA, etc), if we have applied restrictions to editing (protection status). In the most commons layouts (monobook, then vector).  As there wasn't a designed section in mediawiki software for this meta-content display - we decided to place it above the content area.  With the new vector-2022, the location we would use this for is now consumed with a new UI element (the language selector).  Before we go about trying to make a "local" workaround for this, I'm asking if there is any design work from the reading team or other in the new skin team about how to present such indicators/meta-content in general for any project using mediawiki - and if so so, how firm current choices are —  xaosflux  Talk 14:44, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * p.s. things like 'coordinates' are actual factual information about the subject of an article, so I don't really see them as 'meta-content'. — xaosflux  Talk 14:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, ok. I've written a few GA's myself, so I totally understand the underlying issue. But then again, using the indicator tag for the coordinates wouldn't be local and wouldn't be a workaround. It'd be an application of the MediaWiki standard. As for the design work you mention, we did take a look, but that would be beyond Desktop Improvements 1.0, so we didn't pursue that path. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 14:56, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF) thanks, can you point to any "indicators" design layout/documentation pages that were updated for vector-2022? (Is mw:Help:Page status indicators the most current?) That page doesn't have any vector-2022 updates on it, but does use the "outside of the main content" design guide. — xaosflux  Talk 15:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Because while this thread started with asking about "coordinates" - it seems like our design collision is that now our meta-indicators are inside the content area in vector-2022, I'd think moving them would be more of a priority. — xaosflux  Talk 15:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * But it is a change from the current design. You force us to make a change and then say "well we didn't think about how it should be done, you figure it out". Now suddenly that makes the template editor the fixer, the designer and the wall for ppl to shout at because they don't like it. Can you see why that doesn't make it the highest thing on my and others 'lets relax with some wikipedia editing' evening ? ;) —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF) / @Jdlrobson - follow up on question about using "indicator" as suggested, it seems that the indicator design is also now "inside the content area" in vector 2022; compare the icon in the top right on vector vs vector-2022 on testwiki; which doesn't follow the notes at mw:Help:Page status indicators. Is there a vector-2022 "outside the content area" indicator section still? — xaosflux  Talk 12:28, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Just a note that i still consider this to be outside the content area. As in: "if i just write text in a wikitext page, this is not a position that that text could normally end up at." —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @TheDJ, you write "There are all kinds of hacks and overrides in place and multiple variants of templates that get affected" - and would this all be true if the indicator tag was used? Could you give some examples perhaps? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Template:Sky reused the coordinates id until recently, but also Module:Attached KML does (and probably a few more). These need to be dealt with as well. Then there is Template:Coordinates itself, which' output gets read by other modules (this is the infamous coordinsert hack). Then all the skins, which have different positioning and we need to put CSS in place that can work with both the before and after situation. All this requires hours of work and review and testing and moving slowly. And even if you can find a few hours to work on this it's not the most fun and once you are done, you might have to deal with the fallout (ppl yelling at you). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I removed the instances Special:Search found last night (query, removals are from 19:56 EDT, 23:56 UTC?). None of them should have been using #coordinates besides Attached KML and Sky.
 * Otherwise, I agree totally with TheDJ in his commentary here, especially when the research for moving ULS is as specious as it is. "We moved something above the fold, will it increase attention?" Gosh, IDK, will it? The question asked should have included "what lives in this space and will that that attention". Izno (talk) 15:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As for the design work you mention, we did take a look, but that would be beyond Desktop Improvements 1.0, so we didn't pursue that path. @SGrabarczuk (WMF), I'll quote from my comment at VPR, which I understand you intend to reply to at some point: "I don't understand that — you consider it in scope to push them out but not to care about where they're pushed to?" &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 15:46, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding the positioning of coordinates and page indicators: we have created a design spec that we hope can provide guidance (and eventually result in consistency across our projects).
 * Top_of_page_design_spec_(MediaWiki_pages).jpg
 * Here are four examples of how coordinates and page indicators would look if we followed the design spec:


 * One issue that has been raised in the past is the blank space on wikis that don't display the From Wikipedia... tagline. At first we thought that it could make sense to shift the coordinates and indicators over in this case, to fill that space. However after further consideration we think that consistent placement of these elements across various wikis is more important to prioritize. (I do wonder if some of these wikis will decide to turn on the tagline in order to balance that area out a bit more)
 * We hope that this design spec helps us move towards a more organized and consistent top-of-page experience in Vector 2022. Please let us know what you think. Thanks. AHollender (WMF) (talk) 21:21, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As I noted in the phab ticket, I don't think that "coordinates" are "meta data", it is not information "about the page" - it is user generated content about the subject. That this happens to be "coordinates" is also very odd that a software design would call it out there, any project could have any other sort of content there - perhaps a dictionary would want to have some sort of "source of origin", perhaps the magic the gathering wiki would want to have the "mana colors" there, etc. —  xaosflux  Talk 22:16, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Also just noted this in the phab task, but in case some people aren't reading that I'll add it here too: I think it's okay to separate this somewhat new discussion of "should coordinates be considered metadata, and if not where should they be displayed?" from the initial discussion in this task about resolving the issues where coordinates and indicators are overlapping other contents. I realize it might seem silly to move coordinates twice, but I think it might simplify things to first move coordinates just below the page titlebar underline, into the page toolbar (which is like a ~10px move), and then start a separate discussion if people think there might be value in moving them even more.
 * (Hopefully not contradicting myself too much here by adding a note about the second discussion, which again I think can happen in a separate task — I think we should keep in mind that coordinates are, at least in most cases, redundant. They are shown at the top of the article, and within the Infobox. I think in order to have a good discussion about where to put them we should first collect data regarding clicks to the two different coordinates links). AHollender (WMF) (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @AHollender (WMF) long debates have resulting in our current style guidelines that the inclusion, or exclusion, of infoboxes in articles is optional, for example here is a page with coordinates, w/o an infobox: One Bangkok.  I think this discussion is getting very fragmented across multiple on- and off-wiki pages right now as well. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Updates for technical blocker list to make any progress whatsoever on this topic are detailed ate Module_talk:Coordinates —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * We've had a lot of good initial conversation, but we need to get our to our community the main question of: "Where on our articles do we want to present this information to our readers?". Being able to have some technical mock-ups for decision making may be useful. —  xaosflux  Talk 20:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * on this, and on the metadata comment right above. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 05:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Redundant phrase
Hi, in the beginning of Wikipedia pages and under the title of an article, there is a phrase quoted "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". What is the importance of this phrase? In my opinion it is not necessary, because from the logo of Wikipedia, this phrase is clear and obvious. I think this phrase adds no semantics to an article and only makes that article more messy, and is redundant and should be removed. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 14:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's displayed on all wiki pages, also user pages and so on. It's controlled by MediaWiki:Tagline but I don't expect any consensus to blank it. You can remove it for yourself with this in :
 * PrimeHunter (talk) 14:52, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter Ok, I made a discussion about it at MediaWiki_talk:Tagline. Thanks, Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:12, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter Ok, I made a discussion about it at MediaWiki_talk:Tagline. Thanks, Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 15:12, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Can you change the "red alert" for messages?
-- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2022 (UTC) I don't know if this is the right place, but I have a softward suggestion. Why do we get a "red alert" on the bell, even for something as innocuous as somebody pinging you on a talk page? Red means "something bad!" / "someone's mad at you!" / "you did something wrong!". The blue number on the "thanks" / "someone mentioned you" message is much less stressful to see. When I see the red alert, I often ignore it or delete it without reading, because I don't need additional stress in my life. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you put the following rule  into, it will alter that red to Sienna, which should give something like this: . You can set any of the web colors instead. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ...and to use the exact same color with thanks notifications, use . <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,red,yellow,cyan);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh  19:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What is a "CSS" please? Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 03:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * By your CSS, Redrose means your personal CSS page (this one) which will be loaded for you on every page. See H:US for more details on this. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,red,yellow,cyan);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 04:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Beyond my technical abilities, I’m afraid. Thanks for trying. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 04:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * All you have to do is click "" and save the above code. Copy it from the rendered page, not the edit window. Others cannot do it for you, except a few interface administrators who probably won't. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Mr Serjeant Buzfuz You need to click this link https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mr_Serjeant_Buzfuz/common.css&action=edit and then copy paste the above code. As simple as that. Venkat TL (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Hide orange alert for New messages
User:Redrose64 PrimeHunter Thank you for the above reply, I have applied it. Do we have something similar for the new talk page message notification. I want to hide that orange rectangle. I dont want to see that big notification. Thanks. Venkat TL (talk) 14:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Place this in to hide the orange banner but keep the normal notification alert:
 * If you think a small orange rectangle is bad then you should have seen the orange bar of doom. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Copied, thanks @PrimeHunter. Wow, That is 'some' notification, the largest I have ever seen. I suppose few cardiac arrests were a normal occurrence when this notification was used. Venkat TL (talk) 15:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Copied, thanks @PrimeHunter. Wow, That is 'some' notification, the largest I have ever seen. I suppose few cardiac arrests were a normal occurrence when this notification was used. Venkat TL (talk) 15:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

New talkpage welcome message
Hi, On my talkpage I'm now greeted with a rather patronizing message: "Welcome to your talk page People on Wikipedia can use this talk page to post a public message for you and you will be notified when they do." and I'm now greeted with similar messages on other peoples tps

Is there any way this can be disabled as I think by now I know what a talkpage is and the purpose of it!. Thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 12:56, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 13:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Special:Preferences, uncheck "Enable quick topic adding". --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * @Ahecht that doesn't fix the problem that "others" are seeing this where it doesn't seem to make sense. For example, open Dave2010's user talk in a private browser. — xaosflux  Talk 13:10, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I suppose if you wanted to prevent "new topic" from running on specific pages (for others) another feature request could be added (mirror that of T249293 that is looking for a way to disable reply-tool on certain pages). — xaosflux  Talk 13:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, seems like you are getting MediaWiki:discussiontools-emptystate-title-user. Are you only seeing this on talk pages that have no sections? —  xaosflux  Talk 13:09, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see them too when there are no sections, and I see it on Davey2010's talk page. I see this at User talk:Sandbox too. Special:Permalink/1093717911 is the latest revision as of now, and shows this message. Special:Permalink/1092296292 is an old version with the same exact source code, but does not show the message. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 13:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I created a template, No discussion tools empty state that can suppress this for others on a per-page basis, such as if you want to build a page workflow that never uses that. See example at User talk:Xaosflux/Sanbox 12. As far as that message goes, if you don't want to see it on other-people's pages, but do want to use discussion tools - perhaps you can suppress it in your usercss. —  xaosflux  Talk 13:50, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * try putting the code below in Special:MyPage/common.css  That Should hide that dialog "for just you" on all pages. —  xaosflux  Talk 13:56, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Xaosflux, Ahecht and CX Zoom - Many thanks for your help and special thanks to Xaosflux for the workaround greatly appreciate everyones help here, I do apologise for not mentioning earlier that I'm using the discussion tools feature I had completely forgot I was even using it (or that it was a beta feature still), Anyway thanks Xaosflux for your help and workaround greatly appreciated,


 * I've added the No discussion tools empty state template to my talkpage however it now says on my talkpage toc "Invisible section to prevent the discussiontools-emptystate-title tool from running on select pages with no sections" - Not sure if that's meant to be included in my TOC but I'd rather have that then the patronizing message! :), Added the other codding and can confirm it removes the message for myself on others talkpages so yeah I'm happy now and once again thanks Xaosflux and everyone else shelp today I greatly appreciate it, Many thanks, Warm Regards, – Davey 2010 Talk 17:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Davey2010 Hmm, I made it shorter. It is not really the best fix for this, that would require a magic word, I'll see about creating a phab task. —  xaosflux  Talk 17:34, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It will still work on a page that has a special sort of workflow, as they won't normally show a TOC. — xaosflux  Talk 17:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah okay thank you @Xaosflux, Exactly there's not a great fix and I guess we're not going to please everyone but I would take the long title over that message any day of the week! - I just didn't know if anyone was aware which is why I mentioned it. It's gone so I'm happy as larry! :), Thanks again!, – Davey 2010 Talk 17:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux Instead of using a hidden section header, how about using a hidden signature? The tool checks for either a section header or a signature, so a hidden signature should be enough to stop the message appearing, without messing up the table of contents. 192.76.8.85 (talk) 01:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You could also hide it by putting that CSS in TemplateStyles (the message box is part of the page content, so it'll work). That'd be my preferred way, as one of the developers of the tool, since it seems least likely to affect our stuff in unexpected ways. Matma Rex talk 02:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hidden signature seems to work via a template, updated Template:No discussion tools empty state and when I look at 's talk page it seems to be preventing the "empty state" state. — xaosflux  Talk 11:45, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That could be a fix for project-talk, etc - but is a bit cumbersome for usertalk for any user to have to load a templatstyle control to their page. — xaosflux  Talk 11:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Xaosflux: If you create a phab task for a magic word, please also ask to make the absence of this notice the default setting on talk page redirects, see for example, . &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 20:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * One workaround would be to use a level 6 invisible heading instead of level 2 like No discussion tools empty state currently does. And then also using TOC limit at level 5 or lower header. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 17:34, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The devs have been talking about  as a way to suppress some of Discussion Tools.  (I'm not sure which Phab task it is right now.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Whatamidoing (WMF) that is T249293 and is specific to reply-tool (and that should indeed get solved either with that or a new magic word, lots of people don't like it on "archive" pages) - not sure if it should also control "new topic", but maybe? — xaosflux  Talk 11:51, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Davey2010 Do you really want to prevent other users from seeing the message on your talk page? I understand that you find it silly as an editor with years of experience, but it could genuinely be helpful for a new editor reaching your talk page for whatever reason (as currently it contains many things, but little that hints that you can write this person a message there). I'd suggest just hiding it for yourself with the CSS snippet provided by @Xaosflux if it is distracting for you. Matma Rex talk 02:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Matma Rex I'd see hiding it for others mostly useful if we have a page with non-standard workflows, say we build a giant "click this to leave a message" type of button, have an input box with a preload, etc. — xaosflux  Talk 11:49, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Davey2010_en_msg.png Matma Rex, At the time of writing the above issue I actually thought it could be disabled for me only, I never wanted to impact other editors or readers, But that being said because of the way my talkpage is laid out the message never looked right to begin with (see image below) and I really am not going to fart-arse around changing everything for the sake of a message I cannot see and don't want to see.
 * IMHO by removing the message no newbies or editors are missing out - It's 2022 and so far mostly everyone has grasped what a talkpage is and the purpose of it so I really don't see a need for a message stating the obvious, Thanks, – Davey 2010 Talk 15:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. (And thanks for that screenshot, I think that's a bug we should be able to fix.) Matma Rex talk 17:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Excuse me for being late to this conversation. I am observing a similar issue within the usertalkspace. Pages within that namespace that are clearly not meant to be talkpages -- e.g., headers for transclusion, one's own administrative lists, etc. -- are providing opportunities for other editors to "start a discussion", discussions that will transclude over to other pages. (See here, here, and here.) I very much like the idea of a magic word that can tell the system that, despite the page being in a talkspace, the page is not a talkpage (e.g., ). I looked at T249293 referred to above by. Is that task an attempt to prevent the three-flower Start a Discussion doohickey from appearing on any page in which that phab's ultimate magic word is applied? Thanks! — Spike  Toronto  13:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @SpikeToronto T249293 is specific about not putting "reply" links; T314547 is specific to suppressing "new discussion". For now, you could put:
 * on those pages to suppress this. — xaosflux  Talk 13:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for showing me T314547! Adding  seems to have done the trick. (verify) Thanks! —  Spike  Toronto  13:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * NONEWSECTION doesn't suppress that today, it may in the future. — xaosflux  Talk 13:37, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm ...  seems to be working though. The flowers and the invitation to start a new disussion have disappeared from those pages on which it's been added. —  Spike  Toronto  13:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Well that's good news, maybe some chaching or updating was blocking it. I'll update the phab notes too. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The  magic word is, and has always been, the supported way to remove that message (I'm one of the developers). Matma Rex talk 18:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * (The whole discussion above is about finding a way to remove the message without using, since this magic word also removes the "New section" tab next to "Edit". I am still confused about why you would want to do that, but I can't stop you from doing it… Matma Rex talk 18:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC))
 * @Matma Rex thanks for the update, I suppose in Davey2010's example the problem was that layout of the message didn't work well with the rest of the page layout; a problem that the standard editor controls for "new section" didn't have. — xaosflux  Talk 18:14, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This will be fixed by https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/extensions/DiscussionTools/+/819650 (by making the message appear below everything else, instead of squished – just like the new topic tool already does). Matma Rex talk 18:23, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Matma Rex thanks for the note! On a page with tall content will that place it below the scroll? — xaosflux  Talk 18:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean, but you can see how it will work here: https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Talk:Empty_page (feel free to edit the page) Matma Rex talk 18:37, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Matma Rex thanks, so 2 notes on that (is there a phab task these would be better on?) - (a) something odd is going on, the new banner is only appearing intermittently, especially if an edit is made that shouldn't suppress it. (b) see the page now, it seems to be working according to the new story, but the message is now going to be "under the scroll" (far down vertically) on all but the hugest resolutions - that might not be bad, just noting. — xaosflux  Talk 20:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * (a) I can reproduce that on beta.wmflabs, I have no idea why this would happen. Note that the "Add topic" tab also disappears when it happens (which makes sense in a way, since they're both controlled by the same mechanisms). I filed it as T314684. Thanks for reporting it.
 * (b) I see, this is a little weird, but I don't think it's a big problem and don't think we can avoid it. Matma Rex talk 20:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

GitLab plans to delete dormant projects in free accounts
Anyone hosting tools free on GitLab may need to make annual dummy updates to avoid deletion, according to https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/04/gitlab_data_retention_policy/ Certes (talk) 11:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * They've now done a U-turn, of sorts. Graham 87 07:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Any folks here using gitlab.com as part of our movement should migrate to https://gitlab.wikimedia.org! Your code is safe there :) &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  21:07, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Correct Template
Hello! I was improving the article for Silas DeMary and found that there were no references except for one section, but I didn't know what template to put on there so I added info to the "No references" template and now it looks like this: (It is kind of funny) Is there any template that should be used for this article or is there any way to create something in the Source editor that works? Thanks! 𝙷𝚎𝚕𝚕𝚘𝚑𝚎𝚊𝚛𝚝 👋❤️ (𝚃𝚊𝚕𝚔🤔) 21:53, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think you may have inadvertently filled a parameter that replaces "article" with custom text in the template (see Template:Unreferenced). Generally, more references needed is used in cases like this; however, since Silas DeMary is a biography, you may wish to use the more specific BLP sources, which also has the  parameter (works in source editor, not sure about visual editor) to provide an additional comment detailing specific concerns.  Complex / Rational  22:24, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Forgot password
I have forgotten my password. My account doesn't have any email addresses. So, how can I reset my password without any email? Can anyone help me? --Arcxerit’ 05:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Arcxerit you can't. You can simply start a new account and stop using the old one; see Help:Logging_in. — xaosflux  Talk 10:29, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Arcxerit: Since, you commented from your account, I'm assuming you are currently logged-in to that account. In that case, perform the following steps: 1. Use Special:Preferences to set up an email ID. Just create a new email ID if you need. // 2. When you try to log in next time, click forget password, type in the connected email ID, and you'll get a temporary password in the connected email ID. // 3. Log-in using that and create a new password. // 4. Remove the email ID if you want, or leave it alone for future needs. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 11:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're logged out already, not much can be done. Consider following Xaosflux's instructions. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 11:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you logged in long ago then you may have to enter your password to set an email address. I guess it's to prevent an attacker from permanently hijacking an account if they get access to a logged in session. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:08, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am currently using a mobile device, and adding an email address to my account still requires a password, but I forgot my password. Creating a new account looks fine, but what about my user access permission "Autoconfirm"? --Arcxerit’ 13:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Autoconfirmed only requires 4 days and 10 edits. Just wait for the new account to get it. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Arcxerit: Since, you already have it and you are changing the account due to password-loss, you may leave a request at WP:Requests for permissions/Confirmed to immediately get the user right if you need or you can simply wait for 4 days as PrimeHunter suggests. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 14:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Arcxerit If you saved your password in the browser, you should be able to access it (check passwords.google.com if you use Chrome). – SD0001  (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps try this - Neils51 (talk) 23:35, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Prototype: Talk Page Design
Hi y'all – for those interested in talk page design changes, would you be open to trying out a prototype that includes the set of optional visual changes the Editing Team is proposing to make to wikitext talk pages? More details below.



For context, these changes are a part of the ongoing Talk Pages Project, and they are designed to make it easier for people to understand talk pages and assess the activity happening within them.

Try the Prototype
To try the prototype....
 * 1) Visit this article talk page on the special prototype wiki using a skin and device (desktop/laptop or mobile) of your choosing:
 * 2) Vector (2022)
 * 3) Minerva (mobile)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by PPelberg (WMF) (talk • contribs) 15:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 4) Vector
 * 5) Monobook
 * 6) Timeless
 * 7) Explore and experiment with the talk page
 * 8) ✅ Share your feedback (see instructions below)

Share Feedback
We would value you publishing the feedback you have in either of these places:


 * 1) Post the feedback you have by commenting in this discussion
 * 2) Post the feedback you have by creating a new section on Wikipedia talk:Talk pages project

Of course, if you run into any questions as you're trying out the prototype, please ping me or @Whatamidoing (WMF). PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

PAGE ]]) 16:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 01:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PPelberg (WMF) I like the idea behind the "Latest comment" line, but it seems like there's a lot of unnecessary whitespace around it. Something like File:Patchdemo talk page ahecht suggestion.png visually separates that line without adding a ton of unnecessary whitespace. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * @Ahecht, which skin do you normally use? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Legacy Vector. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * I like the idea behind the "Latest comment" line, but it seems like there's a lot of unnecessary whitespace around it.
 * @Ahecht – I appreciate you taking a look at the prototype and going as far to mockup a potential solution to the issue you named!
 * I'm curious to see if other people notice the spacing as well. In the meantime, I've filed T314449 so that we have a place to put similar feedback if/when people surface it.
 * Spacing aside, if there are other aspects of the prototype that you liked and/or wished were different, I'd value knowing. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 22:56, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PPelberg (WMF): no mobile/Minerva testing for this round? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 08:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Great spot, @Pelagic. I've updated the original post to include a link to the Minerva prototype. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh and @Pelagic! Can you think of some people with a critical eye who you think would have helpful feedback to share that I ought to consider explicitly inviting to this discussion? PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PPelberg (WMF) People who who come to my mind like Sdkb, TheDJ and Xaosflux either posted back in May, or are, I imagine, already following along. How about (other) Interface Admins? They could have some perspective on CSS classes, styling, and an eye for layout detail.
 * Perhaps some Teahouse and Help Desk regulars have houghts about how this will be received by newbies and how well it would work on those boards. But if the current interest is in non-default skins then that's a different user base. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 19:08, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * How about (other) Interface Admins? They could have some perspective on CSS classes, styling, and an eye for layout detail.
 * Oh, great idea. I hadn't considered contacting interface admins. I'll reach out them. Thank you for the suggestion, @Pelagic.
 * Perhaps some Teahouse and Help Desk regulars have houghts about how this will be received by newbies and how well it would work on those boards. But if the current interest is in non-default skins then that's a different user base.
 * Good call. I'll post requests for feedback on the the  Help desk and  Teahouse talk pages next week.
 * And to clarify: we are very much interested in peoples' experiences with the design in the default skins (Vector (2022), Legacy Vector, and Minerva).
 * Last thing: thank you for sharing the experience you had with the design on the Talk pages project talk page. You can expect follow comments/questions from me next week. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:12, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm interested in what people (not just regular Timeless users) think of the Timeless prototype. It has lines above and below the topic header, which is an interesting alternative to the line-above style in the other skins. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 19:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PPelberg (WMF) Something went horribly wrong for me when I tried to use your interactive demo, I somehow ended up with some of the new features showing up on this wiki, e.g. I had two "reply" links after each comment, one in the old style, one in the new. Clicking a reply button on the interactive prototype also caused all the reply buttons on wikipedia to disappear. Restarting my browser, bypassing my cache etc didn't seem to fix it. I eventually managed to unbreak it by opening the reply tool in the prototype then swapping to the source editor with a comment open (i.e. clicking [edit source] on the top of one of the sections)
 * I like the latest comment, comment counter and user counter features, they all seem like things that would make it easier to see what discussions are relevant and active.
 * A few suggestions/ideas:
 * In some parts of the interface you have things labelled up as "Add topic", in other parts of the interface you have them labelled up as "New section". It would probably be best to pick one wording and stick to it everywhere to avoid confusion, since they are the exact same thing. At the moment, for example, if you hover over the "Add topic" tab the popup text still has the "New section" wording.
 * I don't really see the point of the "Add topic" button at the bottom of the talk page clutter (sorry, banners). I didn't see it in the prototype so perhaps it's already been removed? In most situations if you're looking at the notices you're going to be able to access the tabs at the top of the page.
 * On that point, have you considered adding the "Add topic" button to the new sticky sidebar in vector 2022? If you had it above the table of contents so it followed you up and down the page it could make it a lot more easy to get to, regardless of how far down the page you are.
 * I think the new "reply" button is a bit too eye catching, I find it disruptive to actually reading discussions, especially in sections with a lot of short comments.
 * Hope there is something of use here. 192.76.8.85 (talk) 20:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

"You successfully pinged someone" notifications
In Special:Preferences, it's possible to opt in to getting notifications whenever you ping someone else (as opposed to the more common situation of being notified whenever someone else pings you). I've had these enabled for a while, as a) I'm trying to get used to the notification system after a period of inactivity and b) my previous signature had been known to confuse software on occasion, so I find it helpful to have a way to know whether something that I intended as a ping attempt was actually interpreted as one.

My question is: for people who have opted into this, why are these "red notifications" (like being pinged by another, or having your user talk page edited) rather than "blue notifications" (like being thanked, or a page you created being patrolled)? Unlike a failed attempt to notify someone (which IIRC is a red notification for everyone, because you need to know that your attempt to contact someone didn't work), there's nothing particularly urgent or important about being told that your ping was successful, so I'd expect this to have been lumped in with the less important notifications. --ais523 22:37, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * MGChecker asked the same with no answer at T139623. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've logged T314695 and submitted — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 23:33, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It was probably not answered because the task had been closed nine months earlier. Unlike some other bug-logging software that I have used, phabricator doesn't reopen a closed task when additional comments are posted. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 17:21, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, pinging someone in an edit summary works fine, but no "successful ping" notification is generated for these pings.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    16:22, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This has been the case ever since the mention-in-edit-summary feature was added in March 2018. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 17:07, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Datasets of revisions
Is there any person or service that generates datasets of EN Wikipedia revision metadata in CSV or other standard format, for example as a file containing all extant edits from a particular month? Looking for something that would include at least page ID, user ID (if applicable), namespace, timestamp, revision size, and SHA1 hash. (I'm working on this myself as a way of creating an audit trail for some stats I'm generating, but I wonder if I might be duplicating someone else's work.) -- Visviva (talk) 01:01, 6 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I doubt that exactly exists, but we do provide database dumps if you were not aware. Izno (talk) 05:40, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is. It is at dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiki/20220801/ under revision metadata. Look for the last meta-current file under that heading, the 602.7 MB one (it is compressed, the actual size is 9x that). You will have to check if the file goes far enough back in time. You could also use the last file marked as articles, if you are only looking for article info. The data is in an XML file, each field in a tag. Mapping: page ID id, user ID contributor - ID, namespace ns, timestamp timestamp, revision size text bytes, and SHA1 hash sha1. Snævar (talk) 05:41, 6 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've been working from the stub-meta-history file (comes out to about half a T unpacked). But since I am but a rando, I want to make sure that I'm deriving my data as transparently as possible. I had been going directly from the dump to user-page-month edit count files like these, but then it occurred to me that (a) although the files are easy to spot-check against page histories and user contributions, there are a number of ways for errors to potentially slip in that might not be obvious from the source code, and (b) although user-page-months are a surprisingly versatile unit, there are some metrics I'm interested in (like edit size and reversion time) that require going back to the revision metadata anyway. So I was thinking about generating intermediary CSV files of revision data by month, which would make things easier for me and any hypothetical fact-checker as well. But then it occurred to me that perhaps someone else had done that already, in which case it would make more sense to just work from that existing data. But I guess maybe nobody has. -- Visviva (talk) 21:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The only way to know for sure is to ask/check the researches, which are on meta under the research namespace. There defiantly are others that have taken the revision metadata and made it into an CSV. From what I see, researchers tend to prune the data so it suits their research, so their CSV may not be helpful. Snævar (talk) 05:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Some weird things going on with my edit history and logs
I created a redirect page called "Big Lake Township" so it redirects to "Big Lake Township, Sherburne County, Minnesota", as there's no other Big Lake Township. After that someone moved the main article to the name of the redirect page I created because it is the only Big Lake Township that exists, so it doesn't need to be disambiguated in the name (although all Minnesota townships have the county in their name despite some being the only townships of that name). The weird thing is that I can't see the creation of the redirect page on my edit history at all. Also when I go to the information page of the redirect page I made (after the move it is the one with the disambiguation in name) the page says that the creator of the page is the user that moved the redirect page?? That's weird since when I go to my page creation log it says that I created the page. Weird. edit: Sorry if this is not the right place to write this, I haven't used the English Wikipedia too much Minilammas (talk) 21:33, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I think this is due to this "move over redirect", which technically the destination page (at that time, your redirect) and then moves the source page to it, "overwriting" the page entirely as it were. This is described in more detail at Moving a page — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 21:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello, and thanks for writing! Yeah, you're probably right. It's just that I have about 5,500 edits on Finnish Wikipedia (my home wiki) and I've never noticed this during my time on Wikipedia, even though I've moved pages and deleted pages by moving (and actually noted that a deletion actually happens, but I couldn't figure out that might have been the reason) many times on my home wiki. It's probably because this was the first time someone moved a redirect page I made. Interesting. Thank you for clearing this up! Minilammas (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * As an administrator I can confirm that the creation is in your deleted edits (actually your only deleted edit). PrimeHunter (talk) 23:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. After writing that I realized that it actually has happened before on my home wiki – but this was the first time I actually went to my edit history to search for a page that was deleted in a move. Minilammas (talk) 23:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Before August 2016, redirect edits made in a situation like this would just completely disappear. Graham 87  08:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Is AB Hypothesis testing possible on unref ?
In Trial a different Idea Labs process we are discussing whether problem solving appproaches might work better, than people suggesting solutions. Our first problem, could be "Does the current unref templates encourage new editors and referencing"  In 2009, unref mass updated and we were thinkng of testing it vs say 2020. But after we worked out what happened in the past, it would be good to test different unrefs and see whether blank, or various versions work better in getting refs on say stubs. Is this possible without having lots of different templates> Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 15:33, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a minor technicality regarding a narrow aspect of a serious problem. It is possible that given sufficient time small samples can be collected that are meaningful to analysis of various formulations of unref. Any formulation decided this way will still be a minor modification of the status quo. The root issue is that only properly referenced input should be allowed in mainspace. Encyclopedias are about facts, not about expanding internet "properties" with more dubious articles and ever-increasing bureaucracy and rulesets. I propose. as one iteration of unref, . It would be interesting to see the result of that. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 16:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. I think we actually may be in agreement, .and if you are need a lot more people interested, before even this small test should go ahead.
 * The aim is to test problem solving by going through all the steps on a project page. So, what small problems do we try to solve.. A good candidate seems to be "Does {{Unref} achieve its goals?" . We might be able to prove that it doesn't based on past data (which we will need help with),  But we need to know that  A/B testing is possible without editing the article..
 * To reply to your comments, one by one
 * "Only properly referenced input should be allowed in main space" This is just a small test, and deleting a million articles might be noticed. :-)
 * "This is a minor technicality" I don't think so, Templates are a combination of a critique/worklist/community recruitment/community advertising, and in the Headline position, I don't think we have never tested whether they work.
 * "A narrow aspect" Deliberately.
 * "A serious problem": You solve Serious problems by splitting them up, and fixing them in bite size chunks, Over and Over again,.
 * "Given sufficient time small samples" These articles have a low number of readers, so ,we may need to investigate 10 K to 100 K over 12 months.
 * "ever-increasing bureaucracy and rulesets" I see this as a symptom of other problems, but that is a larger problem for the community..
 * Requested Test - "if you take no action in 7 days".- Sounds a good test, as long as we don't actually delete the article
 * Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 12:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Autocomplete Search Results For "Ireland" Do Not List "Republic Of Ireland" Article
First a little background. Ireland is an ambiguous term on Wikipedia, as it can (among other uses) refer to both the island of Ireland and the country of Ireland (which shares the island with Northern Ireland). To disambiguate between the two, consensus was reached that the island article be located at Ireland, the country at Republic Of Ireland and reference to each defined by WP:IRE-IRL.

However when a user searches for the word "Ireland" using any of the in-page search boxes (across desktop and mobile), the article for "Republic Of Ireland" is not included in the auto completed search results. It's a common use case for a user to search for a country by its name, "Ireland", however they are not able to easily find the article using search unless they use the terms "Republic Of Ireland" or "Ireland (country)" (a redirect page) which may be unintuitive to the user. This behaviour is inconsistent with the order returned on the non-autocomplete search page, as "Republic Of Ireland" appears as the 2nd result.

I am a relatively new editor so am only learning policies, markup, templates etc and don't know how to resolve this issue. Is there anything that can be done to make the article discoverable to users using autocomplete? Would adding something like Infobox country to the redirect page provide it with enough semantic data to appear at the top list of autocomplete search results? Or is there another talk page that might be able to help? Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ireland (country) is only one of 12 redirects to Republic of Ireland which starts with "Ireland". I don't know whether one of them would get higher priority in autocompletion if some of the others were deleted but I don't think we should delete redirects for this reason. I don't like making changes based on search engine speculation whether it's internal or external searches. Ireland (the island) has a hatnote directly to the republic without going via a disambiguation page. That seems sufficient to me. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @PrimeHunter Thanks for your feedback. Looks like it's going to remain as is indefinitely. Cashew.wheel (talk) 17:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Search under vector-2022
One of my most common actions is to find a policy or guideline via WP: shortcut. Therefore I use the search box for this. Having recently upgraded to vector-2022, I've also adopted the shortcut to search. I'm using Chrome 103 on Windows 10 Pro. If I happen to search while the mouse pointer is near the search box, has the undesirable effect of activating the search suggestion which is indicated by the mouse pointer, rather than sending my query as-is to the search engine. This is an accessibility no-no. I pressed to activate my keyboard input, not what's under the caret. If I need to move the mouse to avoid this situation, it defeats the purpose of keyboard entry.

Example: MOS:GENDERID  took me to WP:MOS and WP:MOSBIO, successively, until I moved the mouse away from underneath the search box. Elizium23 (talk) 02:04, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements. --Malyacko (talk) 13:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Censor blocks from Special:BlockList?
Is it possible to censor blocks such that they can't even be found in Special:BlockList? 213.149.103.132 (talk) 11:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I believe oversighters can suppress a blocked account from appearing there (see Oversight). Neither global locks nor global locks show up there unless you search for them (compare Special:GlobalBlockList). -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The oversight option 'Suppress username from edits and lists.', if used, would suppress a username from that and other lists. We only use that if the username itself contains suppressible information. — xaosflux  Talk 17:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-32
<section begin="technews-2022-W32"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * GUS2Wiki copies the information from to an on-wiki page so you can review its history. If your project isn't already listed on the Wikidata entry for Project:GUS2Wiki you can either run GUS2Wiki yourself or make a request to receive updates.

Changes later this week
 * There is no new MediaWiki version this week.
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis) and on  at 7:00 UTC (targeted wikis).

Future meetings
 * The Wikimania Hackathon will take place online from August 12–14. Don't miss the pre-hacking showcase to learn about projects and find collaborators. Anyone can propose a project or host a session. Newcomers are welcome!

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W32"/>

19:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Collapse template test
Does this look right to y'all? Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet

See Template talk:Collapse top. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 04:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A bullet that goes right before a table doesn't look right to me, but other than that it does work. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;background-image:linear-gradient(90deg,red,yellow,cyan);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text">NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 04:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh, indeed it doesn't look super nice, but due to WP:COLAS one might have to. With the current version of Collapse top people either use it with asterisk indentation (resulting in massive breakage) or insert it without indentation in the middle of a discussion which causes various other problems. <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1659507165253:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 06:12, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know what changed, but the above test was hiding all the remaining content on this page so I've wrapped it a nowiki tag. If you want to share further tests that hide content, perhaps we should link to a separate page that exemplifies usage to avoid this situation. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  16:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, we're getting to the bottom of this at Template_talk:Collapse_top. — xaosflux  Talk 16:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * MusikAnimal, sorry, I forgot I had transcluded the sandbox here. When Xaosflux suggested an extra line break for collapse bottom I tested that in the sandbox (to test with the non-sandbox collapse top), but that broke the collapse top+bottom sandbox combo. <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1659978108684:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The  markup to end a table only works if it is at the very start of the line. Hence it's not surprising that it breaks if placed after an asterisk, just as it would if placed after a colon. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In general, this seems like GIGO to me, tables don't really belong inside lists, regardless of how they are invoked. — xaosflux  Talk 00:21, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Xaosflux, the reality is that people want to collapse stuff within comments on discussion pages, and discussions are lists because history. Saying "no, bad user. bad!" doesn't make that go away. I wonder why it's even a table, maybe a version using divs could be made. <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660030902301:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 07:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"Start a discussion about"
I think it would be a good idea if empty Talk pages said, "Start a discussion about improving the article XXX " instead of "Start a discussion about XXX". Maybe, just maybe, we would get fewer contributions like this: --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Village pumps can get quite technical, with complex plumbing and Seconded. I've removed quite a few new irrelevant talk sections recently.  Minor refinement: "Start a discussion about improving the XXX page" would cover talk pages of non-articles (redirects and dabs) too, or we could detect those and customise the text. Certes (talk) 08:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Honestly I don't know if anything will prevent contributions like that, however, the proposal makes sense so I've boldly gone ahead and changed it: Special:Diff/1103109248. -- zzuuzz (talk) 10:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you be a bit more specific, exactly what steps are you using to get to this message? Here is an example talk page: User_talk:Xaosflux/sandbox129, it says "Start a discussion about improving the User:Xaosflux/sandbox129 page". Here is one that exist, but doesn't have content User talk:Xaosflux/sandbox130, it says " start a discussion with others about how to improve the "User:Xaosflux/sandbox130" page." —  xaosflux  Talk 10:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see the response above, I've already changed it. You can see for yourself from the diff the title it used to use at Talk:Duende and elsewhere. Regarding the different versions, there is a check for whether the page exists (in the title at anyway). MediaWiki:Discussiontools-emptystate-desc might want some tweaking to match that check, or maybe not. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * can we call this resolved now? — xaosflux  Talk 17:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wonderful, thank you! --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Why does this text overflow the page boundary?
On Village pump (policy)/Request for comment on administrator activity requirements, the text in the close box flows off the right side of the page. I'm assuming there's a missing HTML close tag or something like that, but I can't find it. Anybody? -- RoySmith (talk) 16:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Slywriter who did the close. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Slywriter trying the ping again. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith works for me, are you still seeing this? — xaosflux  Talk 17:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , I can't replicate on mobile, mobile desktop nor desktop. Looked through the wikitext and don't see any stray close tags. Slywriter (talk) 17:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yup. I get it on Chrome Version 103.0.5060.134 (Official Build) (x86_64) and Safari Version 15.5 (17613.2.7.1.8), but not on Firefox 95.0.2 (64-bit) or 103.0.1 (64-bit).  macOS Monterrey 12.4 (21F79) for all of those. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, doesn't happen on Chrome in an incognito window. I guess the next thing I should try is turning off various gadgets one by one. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith try this safemode link. Then before you go trying gadgets, try toggling off some of these. — xaosflux  Talk 17:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yup, enabling safemode makes the problem go away. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The problem turns out to be Preferences / Gadgets / Appearance / "Change UTC-based times and dates, such as those used in signatures, to be relative to local time".  Toggling that makes the text overflow problem appear and disappear deterministically. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:17, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think I see what's going on. With that gadget installed, you end up with
 * and the "nowrap" style is forcing the text to not wrap, even though it's too wide for the box. @Curbon7 I'm guessing you've got that same gadget enabled? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith thanks for the note, that gadget is supported soley by User:Gary, you can ask for help on his talk page. — xaosflux  Talk 18:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's pick this up at Wikipedia talk:Comments in Local Time. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This has been an issue for me too. I don't really care enough to figure out how to fix it, as it isn't really major, but just noting it's been happening to me too. Curbon7 (talk) 17:54, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Same note as above, and noting that you are loading ~35 different personal user scripts. — xaosflux  Talk 17:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I recently changed Module:Side box to use divs with flex instead of a table (more semantic HTML). When an element is nowrap inside a table, the table will expand to fit the nowrap. This behavior is particular to tables. Most other elements will instead cause the inner content to overflow. The fix is fundamentally: don't use nowrap in your signatures unless you are marking something very short up as nowrap. If you must use nowrap, use to indicate where a browser may wrap your content, see MDN documentation. Certainly, do not put a full timestamp inside a nowrap style. Izno (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I recently changed Module:Side box to use divs with flex instead of a table (more semantic HTML). When an element is nowrap inside a table, the table will expand to fit the nowrap. This behavior is particular to tables. Most other elements will instead cause the inner content to overflow. The fix is fundamentally: don't use nowrap in your signatures unless you are marking something very short up as nowrap. If you must use nowrap, use to indicate where a browser may wrap your content, see MDN documentation. Certainly, do not put a full timestamp inside a nowrap style. Izno (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I've fixed the problem in the script, so it shouldn't expand thin boxes anymore. Gary ( talk  ·  scripts )  20:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Template:Infobox motorcycle rider
Could someone please take a look after a series of changes mostly up to June 2022 made by a relatively inexperienced editor ? I see a stray curly bracket, eg at Beryl Swain and Carolynn Sells infoboxes (different fields), and the red error messages on the template page itself. Some info at template Talk. No urgency. Thanks.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 19:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have removed three extra . PrimeHunter (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ThanQ, .--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:03, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Preview warnings
On Vincent van Gogh, I keep getting a preview warning about how Infobox artist is using an unknown parameter 1, which apparently refers to education, which is a fully valid parameter. I'm using Safari 15.6 on Mac OS 12.5. Esszet (talk) 00:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There were missing brackets in a wikilink. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 01:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't understand, everything has to be linked? Esszet (talk) 03:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Esszet, unclosed links break templates e.g. &#8213; <span id="Qwerfjkl:1660046092500:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> Qwerfjkl  talk  11:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That wasn't the issue here. It said:
 * The pipe in  wasn't inside a link so it ended the   parameter and started an unnamed parameter. The first unnamed parameter is called   and the infobox doesn't accept unnamed parameters. The warning said '' unknown parameter "1 = PrimeHunter (talk) 13:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's the third pipe in the line. What that pipe does is split the one line into two parameters, as if the following had been entered:  The pipe concerned seems to have originated in  at 20:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC) by . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I see, thank you both. Esszet (talk) 01:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I see, thank you both. Esszet (talk) 01:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

How can a template calculate the diff between year-and-month dates?
I'd like a citation template to calculate how old a publication is, because if it's > 3yrs,  should be set to 'free'. Publication is quarterly, and the publisher's dates in their DB are YYYY/MM, so it would be nice if the notice for free access turned on the month. But I can't just subtract the  param from a truncated CURRENTTIMESTAMP, because neither is decimal. I assume this has been done before, just don't know where to look. — kwami (talk) 23:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You could probably do the calculation using Julian days. Or, something like the following usage of time interval might help.  gives a number of days and   gives just the number. You could use   for years but I would need a fair bit of time to experiment or recall how it rounds.
 * Johnuniq (talk) 00:00, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I think I can take it from there. If I get stuck I'll ping you. — kwami (talk) 01:13, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I think I can take it from there. If I get stuck I'll ping you. — kwami (talk) 01:13, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

That works! If I plug in 2019-08, it displays as free access; if 2019-09, it doesn't. — kwami (talk) 01:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I had a look at Template:Cite JIPA. The date/age modules are complex and not fully documented and I have forgotten exactly what  does as far as date differences go, so I'll just mention that using   makes time interval accept incomplete dates such as "2001" or "March 2001". In a quick test, I couldn't make sense of the resulting number and I can't take the time at the moment to dive in deeper. Ask me in a couple of weeks if you want that investigated (I should do it!). However, what I am confident about is that omitting a date means the current date is used. For example, these give the same result and this may be of use:
 * Johnuniq (talk) 07:32, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That simplifies things quite a bit. I'll play around with it tomorrow. — kwami (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That allowed me to cut a fair amount of clutter in the code and end up being more forgiving of date formats. Enough that I could reduce the documentation. — kwami (talk) 09:23, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That simplifies things quite a bit. I'll play around with it tomorrow. — kwami (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That allowed me to cut a fair amount of clutter in the code and end up being more forgiving of date formats. Enough that I could reduce the documentation. — kwami (talk) 09:23, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Logging in to OTRS
I was trying to read an OTRS ticket, but found myself unable to log in to do so. I followed this link and was asked for my username + password, but was told the password was wrong when I supplied it. So I said I'd lost it (not true, but there didn't seem to be anything else to do) and was told I'd been sent password reset instructions by e-mail. No e-mail arrived. Help? I suppose it's possible that I created a separate password for the OTRS thing years ago and failed to make a note of it and failed to both save it in my Firefox privacy thing and to link an e-mail to it (though I don't think so), but what can I do now? I'm really scared to test my Wikipedia password by logging out and then back in, but sooner or later of course I will simply be logged out - you know it happens. Will I at that time ever be able to get back in to my Wikipedia account? And what's wrong with "Wikimedia vrt" that it won't let me log in to read the ticket? Bishonen &#124; tålk 08:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC).
 * @Bishonen, you could try logging in, in an incognito window, so that it won't log you out. &#8213; <span id="Qwerfjkl:1660215252566:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> Qwerfjkl talk  10:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, what? How do I get an incognito window without first logging out (which I'm now scared to do)? Please make all explanations in "for dummies" mode. Bishonen &#124; tålk 11:03, 11 August 2022 (UTC).
 * Follow the instructions here or press control-shift-p on Windows/Linux or command-shift-P on a Mac. Graham 87 11:40, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Right. I have now tried that, but got exactly the same result. Bishonen &#124; tålk 11:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC).
 * @Bishonen Are you a VRT agent? If not then you can't access Wikimedia vrt. Nthep (talk) 12:27, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not. But I used to be able to read OTRS tickets all the same. Did I use the wrong kind of link? Another admin sent it to me because they wanted my opinion on the unblock request. Bishonen &#124; tålk 13:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC).
 * @Bishonen I don't see you on the List of accounts (or the List of accounts/closed list). Note, vrt-wiki, and ticket.wikimedia.org don't use your WMF SUL logon, but a different account. If you have a different username there, we can look for it; otherwise this seems to be working as expected? Perhaps you are thinking about the Unblock Ticket Request System tickets where unblock requests normally go, that uses SUL logon. —  xaosflux  Talk 13:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh. Yes, maybe I was thinking of UTRS. I think I'll just decide it wasn't really important to look at the request. Thanks, everybody, for your help. Bishonen &#124; tålk 15:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC).

Category appears to be empty?
Is there a reason Category:Brooks & Dunn songs has a warning at the top saying "this category appears to be empty" when it's clearly not? I tried a null edit and nothing fixed it. Anyone know what might be causing this? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:34, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's caused by Template:Songs category. How to fix that, I don't know. DuncanHill (talk) 18:42, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Because * there is currently outputting 0, in error. — xaosflux  Talk 18:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Because is producing   rather than   * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  18:45, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Possible bug on pages with "&" in the title — xaosflux  Talk 18:49, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I updated Template:Songs category/core with the workaround suggested on mw:Help:Magic_words - better now? 18:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC) — xaosflux  Talk 18:52, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * According to the wayback machine, the "empty" warning has been present since at least 2016. The behavior of encoding certain special characters has been documented on MediaWiki.org since at least 2011 (originally added at mw:Help:Magic words, later moved to mw:Manual:PAGENAMEE encoding). Looks like a misfeature rather than a bug. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  18:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems to be T37746. — xaosflux  Talk 18:54, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Содержание
Strange one I've seen a few times already. In the Special:NewPagesFeed display of the first lines of an article, I get things like

"The men's tandem sprint B at the 2022 Commonwealth Games is part of the cycling programme, and took place on 31 July 2022. Содержание 1 Records 2 Schedule " (emphasis mine). This text is not visible in the article. The meaning is "content". It isn't restricted to one editor either, I e.g. also see it at Swimming at the 2022 European Aquatics Championships – Men's 400 metre individual medley. But it does seem to be restricted to sports articles? An inobox issue or somethinhg else? Fram (talk) 09:22, 11 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Strange, it's like it's picking up the Russian translation of MediaWiki:Toc for some reason. But that message hasn't changed at all recently so far as I can tell. the wub "?!"  10:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, the text appears in place of "Contents" in the standard ToC header. it's as if Special:NewPagesFeed is suddenly running in a Russian-language "context" (in a vague, non-technical sense).  It's Thursday, but there is no new MediaWiki version this week. Certes (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears that Special:NewPagesFeed picks up the language of the editor who created the page. For example, for Swimming at the 2022 European Aquatics Championships – Women's 200 metre backstroke at Special:NewPagesFeed I see The Women's 200 metre backstroke competition of the 2022 European Aquatics Championships will be held on 11 and 12 August 2022.ScheduleStart list Содержание 1 Records 2 Results 2.1 Heats 2.2 Semifinals 2.3 Final 3 References Records Prior the... (emphasis mine). The page was created by, whose userboxes suggest that his English Wikipedia interface might be in Russian. —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:21, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Similar situation with Cycling at the 2022 Commonwealth Games – Women's tandem 1 km time trial B by . Quote from feed: The women's tandem 1 km time trial B at the 2022 Commonwealth Games, was part of the cycling programme, which took place on 31 July 2022. This event was for blind and visually impaired cyclists riding with a sighted pilot. Содержание 1 Record.... —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Special:NewPagesFeed changes quickly here and all reported examples were with Russian so I made a test with Danish at testwiki:NewPagesFeed language test. testwiki:Special:NewPagesFeed shows the Danish "Indholdsfortegnelse" instead of "Contents". PrimeHunter (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The language at Special:NewPagesFeed appears to not be determined by the page creator but the most recent editor. I created the page with Danish as language and it displayed in Danish. I made an edit with English as language and it displayed in English. I made another edit with Danish as language and it now displays in Danish again. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a WP:BUG to report over at phab. — xaosflux  Talk 16:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Bug report filed: T315082. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 14:38, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Working with date & time magic words
Hi all, I am trying to find out how to use date & time magic words and add/subtract a specific number of days or hours to them and then represent them in the format we use for signature. [I thought of using and, adding, for example, 5000000 for 5 days, but that should not work properly at the end of a month.] Thanks! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 12:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * CX Zoom, you need to use UNIX time: . Five days from now: <br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>As for the signature format, must be a system message that comes after MediaWiki:Signature. Can't remember what it is though. <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660308392908:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions. You may want something like   which displays as .  You'll need to check that the timezones displayed by e and asssumed by H etc are both the one you want. Certes (talk) 12:52, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 13:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Certes, CX Zoom, that would only work for English Wikipedia and projects with the same timestamp format. There's a lot of variance across languages though. Well, I found the origin: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/g/mediawiki/core/+/master/includes/parser/Parser.php#4636: . Not sure if the format can be retrieved on-wiki at all. <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660323989327:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 17:06, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

How to force a screen reader to ignore the label for an OO.ui.ButtonWidget?
I have three buttons in my script labeled "B", "I" and "XYZ". They are styled as bold, italic and struck text respectively. They work fine. The have "bold", italic" and "strikethrough" respectively in their title attribute which is also good.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Unfortunately, not all screen readers are picking up on the title here. They should frankly ignore the label in this case, but how? https://doc.wikimedia.org/oojs-ui/master/js/#!/api/OO.ui.ButtonWidget only provides a solution for the opposite: to hide the label from view while allowing screen readers to still use it. I need the opposite.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>I can only think of one way currently: to turn the "B", "I" and "XYZ" into SVG images so screen readers have no choice but to fall back on the title attribute. But the actual letters being used depend on the language and text rendering within SVG is a known PITA.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Isn't there another way to indicate the label isn't very useful for screen readers and they should fall back on the title? <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660306914490:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 12:21, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Alexis Jazz There isn't a built-in way to do it in OOUI, but you can do it using the usual HTML attributes, like this: . You shouldn't rely on   for screen reader accessibility, it works fine in some cases but not others, here's a long article about this:.
 * I would actually recommend doing the approach with image icons. OOUI includes icons for bold, italic and strikethrough, and they automatically adapt to the user language – see the "editing-styling" section in the demos: . If you use an icon, you can add an accessible label to the OOUI button like this:  (in addition to the   for sighted mouse users who hate icons). Matma Rex talk 19:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Matma Rex, thanks, I'll use aria-label. Will read the article later.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>I've considered using those icons. For a short while I actually did. There are several issues with them though. For one, my script works with just oojs-ui-core. In one benchmark I found that adding any icon dependency increased the load time by 300ms or so. Embedding some SVGs for the few icons I did need was faster. Another consideration was licensing: my script is public domain. Using only original icons, any screenshot of it can also be PD.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>But probably most importantly: the OO.ui icons for bold/italic/strikethrough aren't that good. The strikethrough is particularly unclear. There were some regional issues as well. For example, using C for italic or V for bold is uncommon and confusing in Dutch. IIRC for my own version I looked mostly at which letters MS Word uses in its toolbar and made some considerations of my own. For example, using ABC for strikethrough ( ABC ) is common. It's a poor choice though. It's quite hard to see if the A and B are struck. No such problems with XYZ . And once I decided the strikethrough icons from OO.ui were really not acceptable for me, I had to do bold and italic as well to maintain consistency.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Thanks again for pointing me towards aria-label! <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660336461237:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:34, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Issue with striking text
Just now I attempted to strike out an RfA vote and associated discussion here. Even though I added the correct ... tags it managed to strike out everything after the opening tag. I managed to get around it with this, but something still seems off. Was it something I did (wouldn't surprise me), or is there some kind of glitch? (Side note: if there's a way of collapsing it without whacking out the vote tally I'd like to know it) The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 00:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * # and : (and * and ;) start html elements that end at the end of the line they're on. Each &lt;s> tag within one has to end in a matching &lt;/s> tag on the same line.  If you really mean to strike the blocked user's comments and all replies - and I don't think that's justified - you have to put a separate &lt;s>...&lt;/s> on each line. —Cryptic 00:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm fine with just striking the individual vote, I'll go do that now. But good to know for the future. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 00:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Another way of putting it is that <s ></s> is an inline element, lists are block elements. Block elements may only be enclosed by other block elements, but may enclose anything. Inline elements, by contrast, may be enclosed by anything, but may only enclose other inline elements. The <li ></li> element is somewhere between: it may only be enclosed by <ol ></ol> or <ul ></ul> elements, there is no valid HTML syntax that permits one or more individual <li ></li> elements to be enclosed unless you enclose the whole list, that is, outside of its <ol ></ol> or <ul ></ul> elements. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Start new section button, in editor's talkpage
Has the "+" (start a new section) button been disabled on user talkpages? Mine no longer works. GoodDay (talk) 02:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * what happens when you push it? Which skin are you using? It it not working on all pages (like this one), only a specific page, or only user talk pages for you? —  xaosflux  Talk 09:45, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If "Enable quick topic adding" is enabled at Special:Preferences then try to disable it. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Now, it doesn't seem to work on any talkpages. GoodDay (talk) 14:44, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

<b style="color:red">Red alert</b>: The new topic edit feature is not working in Wikipedia talk, Template talk, Help talk, and MediaWiki talk namespaces. For example, on page Wikipedia talk:Administrators, mouse over the new section "+" and the link is ; but that page is simply the talk page itself, not the new section page. Mouse over  and the link is , but that page is again simply the talk page itself. On page Template talk:AfD in 3 steps, mouse over the new section "+" and the link is ; but that page is simply the talk page itself, not the new section page. Article talk, User talk, File talk, and Category talk pages all allow adding new sections in the normal manner. I use Windows 10, Firefox, and the MonoBook skin. —Anomalocaris (talk) 04:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that this is a similar problem to Village pump (technical)/Archive 198? The new "quick topic adding" is a JavaScript-only feature, but when JavaScript is disabled, it should redirect you to the old form. However, it is possible for some browser extensions to prevent this redirection, which would cause the behavior you describe. Matma Rex talk 18:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Works for me still? I was able to add new topic, with the new topic tool enabled and also with it disabled. — xaosflux  Talk 18:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It works for me. The mentioned mouse over url's are the same when it works. The only url difference is that when it works, clicking the link doesn't change the url from the page you are already on, but just adds a form. For example, if you click the new section link on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators then you are still on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators, but at the bottom in a form. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I just got a new computer today. The problem is still there. However, it goes away if I go to Preferences and on the Editing tab, uncheck  and save. I have not intentionally disabled Javascript in Firefox. If I disabled Javascript in Wikipedia, how would I have done that? —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Enable quick topic adding again. Does it work if you log out? Does it work in safemode? The tab will say "New section". PrimeHunter (talk) 09:23, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you running script-blocking extensions, such as NoScript? — xaosflux  Talk 10:14, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No, as I say, I just got a new Windows 11 computer and installed Firefox on it, with no extensions so far. If I log out, my preferences won't be in effect. If I enable quick topic adding, safemode does not solve the problem. —Anomalocaris (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Quick topic adding is enabled for logged out users. Does it work if you log out? PrimeHunter (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I think I see what's happening – if you have "Enable quick topic adding" enabled, but "Enable quick replying disabled", and the page would have any reply links, all of the tools don't work correctly. This is filed as T314707, I didn't immediately connect the dots that it's the same issue. Matma Rex talk 20:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @GoodDay @Anomalocaris This should be fixed now (you might need to purge the cache of affected pages first), can you try? Sorry about the issue. Matma Rex talk 14:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yup, it's kickin' in, now. But not for some editors' talkpages. But, it'll gradually smooth out :) GoodDay (talk) 15:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Matma Rex: New topic edit is working now. However, the URL of the editing page is the same as the URL of the production page, and the back button takes you back, not to the production page but to the page before the production page. That isn't what I expect. —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:35, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Anomalocaris, I already knew about this, I knew it wouldn't go well, and it didn't.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>This is DiscussionTools' aggressive hostile takeovers coming back to bite them in the ass. Needless to say, Bawl has none of these issues. Better yet, by default it actively patches out that problem you mentioned by altering the URL. (development would have been easier if I wouldn't have to worry about DT's escapades) <span id="Alexis_Jazz:1660396989638:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 13:23, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Div problems?
The behavior at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style surprised me. Maybe Template:Archive top is incompatible with <poem ></poem>? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC) Line two
 * The poem tag is buggy. It wants to close a div early when being indented.
 * See .  Generates   <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef  16:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * tags don't belong in <dd ></dd> definition list markup. To indent <poem ></poem> tags, this works:   which gives:   —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:37, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The fix was . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 13:26, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There's nothing simple about that, unless you mean "The fix was asking you to fix it for me".    Thank you for your help.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The addition of the  attribute has nothing to do with the real fix, which was to remove the colon. That style attribute is there merely to simulate the indent that the colon had been intended to carry out. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with tag in <dd ></dd> definition list markup; this is demonstrated by the above use of <syntaxhighlight ></syntaxhighlight> (which emits a div) following one or two colons perfectly satisfactorily (if you were to enclose this thread in / there would be no breakage). Indeed, the HTML spec explicitly allows a   element to contain flow content, and a   element can be used where flow content is expected . -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you all settle things and decide that there needs to be a change, then I'm willing to write up any needed Phab tickets, but I think you'll need to tell me what to say. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:51, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The bug will be in the poem extension, but I'm not a PHP coder. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I think that tags don't belong in <dd ></dd> definition list tags because  (which is wrapped in  tags) doesn't work in indented discussions.  Here is a <ref >some text</ref>:
 * Special:ExpandTemplates gives this:
 * What actually renders in my browser is this:
 * Is it the style element (which is not flow content) that breaks this (common) use case?
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it's the part of the MediaWiki software that nowadays does the job that was formerly carried out by HTML Tidy. What seems to happen is that if all of the "untidy" HTML is on one line, the tidying routines are happy. If you have  placed hard left, what this generates is   and if we take that, remove all the newlines, and indent it, it works as expected:
 * Line one
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No, it's the part of the MediaWiki software that nowadays does the job that was formerly carried out by HTML Tidy. What seems to happen is that if all of the "untidy" HTML is on one line, the tidying routines are happy. If you have  placed hard left, what this generates is   and if we take that, remove all the newlines, and indent it, it works as expected:
 * Line one
 * But if there's a newline in there somewhere (it doesn't really matter where), some of the end tags are moved from their correct position to a point that is semantically too early, thus terminating certain elements that should have been left open. Consider this simple example:
 * This is a div and it's formatted correctly
 * This is a div

and it's broken
 * The MediaWiki software is assuming that the newline should terminate the div and the five enclosing dl/dd pairs, and that the phrase "and it's broken" should be enclosed in tags. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 16:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I stripped all of the newlines out of and got the same result as the live version above so if the issue is newlines, it doesn't appear to be fixable by tweaking the template.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

What's the difference between API lists gblrename/promote and gblrename/rename?
Where can I get an information about Mediawiki API? I'm an interesting in what's difference between this API lists: MBH (talk) 04:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&format=xml&list=logevents&leaction=gblrename%2Frename
 * https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&format=xml&list=logevents&leaction=gblrename%2Fpromote


 * The MediaWiki API includes its own documentation under . In your case, that would be at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=help&modules=query%2Blogevents, but individual  s don't seem to be documented there. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  10:42, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I knew all this before posting here.MBH (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * is where all renames get logged these days.  was used as a part of the SUL finalization workflows, except there was a bug earlier this year which caused some requests made with Special:GlobalRenameRequest get logged there instead. Those 'broken' renames also have a log entry that appears that it was performed by myself when we fixed that issue. Taavi (talk!) 12:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. MBH (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion subscriptions
Is there a way to subscribe to project discussions? I see that section subscription are available at WP:ANI, but, it would be nice to also be able to subscribe to discussions at, WP:CFD or Afd, WP:FFD and the like. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * not today. The primary reason is that "subscribe" only works on level 2 headings, and those pages are using level 3 or 4 headings. T298617 may be a good place to leave more feedback on that. — xaosflux  Talk 02:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Question about &lt;math> markup element bug
There is a known bug in the &lt;math> markup element. The bug is: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T268279   This bug is a couple of years old. The bug is: when a mobile user is viewing a Wikimedia page in dark mode (white text on a black background), the &lt;math>  element sometimes draws black text on a black background. That is bad, because the formula is invisible. I suppose this bug doesn't get much attention because (a) it only happens when a user has Dark Mode enabled; (b) only on phones & iPads; and (c) only if the &lt;math> element is used in certain ways.

One solution I found that works in many cases is to change the markup from &lt;math display="block> to :&lt;math> .   That fixes the issue in my test cases.  This change is only proposed for simple formulae that take a single line (so the "block" display option is not significant).  The change appears to have no downsides (provided the formula is a single line). My question is:  is there an expert in the Wikimedia &lt;math> markup element that I can ask to confirm that my suggested solution won't impact the display of formulae?  And also to ask why adding display="block" changes the text color?  I posted a note in   https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T268279, but how can I ask the folks responsible for the &lt;math> markup element about this?  Noleander (talk) 21:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I looked thru the archives of Village Pump, and found this discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_138#Math_block_display      This was a proposal to prohibit indenting &lt;math> with a colon, but the proposal was not adopted.  The consensus seems to be that &lt;math display="block"> is generally desirable (for accessibility reasons) but is not a requirement, and :&lt;math> is acceptable.    That discussion aside, my key question remains:   why does adding display="block" to &lt;math> change the text color in dark mode within Wikipedia app? Noleander (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Please avoid posting in multiple locations. For others, see discussion at template talk:Math. Izno (talk) 04:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Full width of page
Hi, in browsing in Vector 2022 mode when I click hide contents on the left, I want the article to span the whole width of the page but it leaves an empty gap. I don't see the point in it. Why can't I shrink the left side and broaden out the page? That seems the best option from shrinking the contents.♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Limiting the display width is deemed to be the best way. See Limiting content width There are several (many?) user scripts to fix this width issue, but yes, it really would be better if full width was just a standard Skin preference. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 23:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We have a gadget, but it still isn't getting that space back. I left a note in T307901; if anyone has a clue (and hopefully not a lengthy javascript hack) input would be welcome.  Here is a random article, in vector-2022, with the "wide" gadget on: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Kilkenny_Senior_Hurling_Championship?useskin=vector-2022&withgadget=wide-vector-2022>.  Notice, that even with both the sidebar and TOC collapse, that space is still wasted over there. That space does helpfully get deleted at widths under 1000px as a hint. —  xaosflux  Talk 23:26, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Where was the place to contact the site developers again? It goes the full width on pages without a table of contents but the table of contents on the left disrupts the shrinking of the side which is rather silly. Ensuring that you can broaden out to the page to the full width should be a development priority. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The need for a full width option is explicitly not being addressed. See the other VP page — Issues that are not part of the Desktop Improvements project — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 10:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @GhostInTheMachine I understand that the skin devs don't care about building that, which is why it will fall on to other volunteers. — xaosflux  Talk 13:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @all above: Go to, select "MonoBook" (it's first in the list) and save. Goodbye to most problems. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That's been my default for most of the 16 years I've been here :-). Even Monobook doesn't have the full page width option, with the task bar down the left. I can't believe that on small devices maximising the full width of the page for reading isn't a development priority!! It would be one of the first things I would look into if trying to maximise the usability of Wikipedia on smaller devices! ♦  Dr. Blofeld  08:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I see a number of others have complained about it at here! I agree with them that the wide vector 2022 version should be default or at least an option in preferences instead of having to use java script. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:31, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the MonoBook suggestion...earlier this summer I switched from plain Vector to Vector2022 & it is different. I must say that MonoBook is noticeably faster both for viewing & edits, so it will be my "go-to" preference. JoeNMLC (talk) 20:17, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Odd image placement and effect on bullets
The article Danger Lights is about an old movie whose copyright has expired. The wikitext starts with Both of the  links point to full versions of the movie. (Below, I will call them the "first" and "second" thumbnails.) Next in the wikitext is the text of the lead section, then a section header for the Plot. That's all fine. But before the actual text of the plot there is another link, which links to a screenshot of the movie's title. And what I'm talking about here is the positioning of the "third" thumbnail, the one for that screenshot; note that this one is left-aligned.

If I view this article and vary the width of the window, I see that the infobox is always at top right, with the first two thumbnails also on the right and immediately below it. The third thumbnail may appear at the top of the Plot section (as the wikitext suggests) if the window is so narrow that that is below the bottom of the second thumbnails. As the window is widened, the third thumbnail always stays below the bottom of the second thumbnails (thus causing it to fall in the middle of the Plot section) until the window is widened to the point where text can reasonably go between the left- and right-aligned thumbnails. Then the third thumbnail jumps up so that its top aligns with the bottom of the first thumbnail.

Okay, that's a little weird to watch, but I can see why it might be reasonable. Still, it seems to me that once the window is wide enough, the third thumbnail could be placed at the top left of the section as the wikitext indicates; it doesn't need to be aligned in relation to the other thumbnails.

And now, more important, look what happens if you keep widening the window so that the entire Plot section fits higher in the window than the bottom of the first thumbnail. At this point the third thumbnail finds itself down in the following section, the Cast. Note that this section consists of a bulleted list. Well, as I see it in Firefox, whichever bullet item aligns with the top of the third thumbnail is broken: the bullet itself aligns with the bullets above the thumbnail, but the content of that bullet point aligns with the ones below. So the list ends up formatted something like this:

• actor 1 • actor 2 •             actor 3 • actor 4 • actor 5

And that's clearly a bug.

(If you want to reply, please do it here, not to the talk page for my IP address.) --174.95.81.219 (talk) 02:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a known issue, fixed with stack. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:50, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * So it was! Thanks.  But now I wonder if there are other circumstances (not fixable by stack) where a thumbnail can float down into a bulleted list and break its formatting in the same way. --174.95.81.219 (talk) 17:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This can happen whenever you alternate left and right aligned elements. Stack fixes this, because it basically turns multiple floated elements into one single floating element. Generally bulleted lists are not floated, so it cannot break in that way. There is however another weird issue with bulleted lists. A bulleted list places its bullets outside of the normal content flow (this is just how the CSS and html has defined and implemented this). This can cause bullets to overlap with other elements, including left floating items. For this problem there is flowlist, although that too has a downside if the list is longer then the item being floated. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:51, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * When there are box-type objects (perhaps images, but not necessarily) that are narrower than full width and also floated (left or right), the sequence that they occur in the page source governs the sequence that they are displayed. Another way of putting it is that if you have this markup:  the top edge of image B cannot be any higher than the top edge of image A. So if image A is displaced down the page, perhaps by an infobox, image B must be displaced by a similar amount. Most browsers behave like this: but there was one, perhaps IE (around about versions 6/7/8), which allowed the "later" left-aligned image to move up the page to the expected position. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-33
<section begin="technews-2022-W33"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * The Persian (Farsi) Wikipedia community decided to block IP editing from October 2021 to April 2022. The Wikimedia Foundation's Product Analytics team tracked the impact of this change. An impact report is now available.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis) and on  at 7:00 UTC (targeted wikis).
 * The Realtime Preview will be available as a Beta Feature on wikis in Group 1. This feature was built in order to fulfill one of the Community Wishlist Survey proposals.

Future changes
 * The Beta Feature for DiscussionTools will be updated throughout August. Discussions will look different.  You can see some of the proposed changes.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W33"/>

21:06, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Length of audio files
I noticed a difference of one second in the displayed length of audio files. Example: Houston, we have a problem contains this file with a length of 2:59 minutes: The white arrow opens a player which displays a length of 2:58 minutes. I think this is confusing. As far as I can see this 1 second difference happens for all media files. Kallichore (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * When you begin playback, technically it doesn't display the duration, it displays the "remainder". The file is actually 2:58.something. Remainder will show 2:58 (a floored int) and duration will show 2:59 ( a ceiled int). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Ok, that sounds logical. The effect is easier to understand using short audio files like this one. I never noticed this effect before, has there been a recent change? --Kallichore (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

MonoBook skin - How change button colors for "Publish changes" "Show preview"
Recently, I changed skin to MonoBook, and am unable to change these editing button colors. I searched Archive and did not find a solution.

Below css works okay for these two skins

User:JoeNMLC/vector.css

User:JoeNMLC/vector-2022.css

CSS

input#wpSave { background-color: #ff8080; }

input#wpPreview { background-color: #98fb98; }

As a test, I added above to User:JoeNMLC/common.css and it is ignored. What would be good css change for Monobook? JoeNMLC (talk) 21:27, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Omit . PrimeHunter (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Thanks so much. I would never figured that out in a million years. JoeNMLC (talk) 00:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Explanation: The background in MonoBook is actually an image. You could have said  to remove the image so background-color becomes visible.   can set all background properties at once, where no image part means no image. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:55, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Enabling zebra stripes when previewing edits
Hey guys. I'm trying to add to my JavaScript so that I can see zebra stripes on sortable tables with the zebra class added, which I've successfully been able to do so far per this article. The code provided in the article only enables me to see the zebra stripes when the page is loaded and when I sort a column, but does anyone know what the code would be so that I can see the zebra stripes when previewing edits? At the moment, I can only see the zebra stripes when previewing once I click on a column to sort it, but I'm wondering if there's a way that you can see them immediately upon previewing edits so that I don't have to sort a column to see the zebra stripes each time I want to preview an edit – more than happy to admit that JavaScript isn't my strong suit, so thought I'd see if anyone had a rough idea of what the code might be. Thanks! 4TheWynne  (talk  •  contribs)  16:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You don't need JavaScript for this. Try  (This is just for you, obviously. Don't add   or any class that's not supported by the site in wikitext.) Nardog (talk) 18:34, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , just saw this now – thanks for getting back to me. To clarify, I'm not simply wanting to do this as a personal thing for all sortable tables (for what it's worth, I did try your method, and the stripes go all over the place in sortable tables with rowspans, which is still a lot) – I'm specifically looking to use this method for statistics tables in AFL/AFLW player articles. Currently, all tables have zebra stripes manually added, but when you sort a column, the zebra stripes move/bunch up and look messy, which is why I wanted to try removing the manual stripes, adding the zebra class and adding the stripes this way, and then discuss it at WT:AFL as something that could be implemented project-wide. 4TheWynne   (talk  •  contribs)  19:16, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * zebra stripes manually added Um, yeah, please remove them asap. What you're looking for is feasible with TemplateStyles, but is there a WikiProject consensus for this? Nardog (talk) 22:52, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , no, I don't have a consensus for this at WT:AFL yet – that's why I mentioned I wanted to try and find the correct way to add the stripes first and then bring it up at WikiProject level, that way I can show them the right method and then discuss implementing it project-wide. See Dane Swan, as an example of where I'm coming from, but if the manual stripes are a big no-no, I'll definitely bring this up – we've made other improvements (mostly accessibility-related) to statistics tables via discussions at WikiProject level in the past, but this is clearly one that's just gone unnoticed until I brought it up here. 4TheWynne   (talk  •  contribs)  04:20, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Turns out there already is Alternating rows table. Nardog (talk) 06:11, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Awesome. I've looked into it, and it appears you can only add one  element to the template (there are two which apply to the table, the font size and alignment); I've gone with the font size (which would be applied to all of the AFL player statistics start templates), given you can easily align a whole row in the table itself. As an example, this is what Tony Lockett's table would look like with the changes applied:

! scope=col rowspan=2 style=width:3em | Season ! scope=col rowspan=2 style=width:11em | Team ! scope=col rowspan=2 style=width:2em class=unsortable | No. ! scope=col rowspan=2 style=width:3em | Games ! scope=col colspan=7 | Totals ! scope=col colspan=7 | Averages (per game) ! scope=col style=width:2em | G ! scope=col style=width:2em | B ! scope=col style=width:2em | K ! scope=col style=width:2em | H ! scope=col style=width:2em | D ! scope=col style=width:2em | M ! scope=col style=width:2em | T ! scope=col style=width:2em | G ! scope=col style=width:2em | B ! scope=col style=width:2em | K ! scope=col style=width:2em | H ! scope=col style=width:2em | D ! scope=col style=width:2em | M ! scope=col style=width:2em | T ! colspan=3 | Career ! 281 !! 1360 !! 590 !! 2367 !! 500 !! 2867 !! 1760 !! 142 !! 4.8 !! 2.1 !! 8.4 !! 1.8 !! 10.2 !! 6.3 !! 0.7
 * 1983 || || 37
 * 12 || 19 || 17 || 76 || 26 || 102 || 44 || — || 1.6 || 1.4 || 6.3 || 2.2 || 8.5 || 3.7 || —
 * 1984 || || 14
 * 20 || 77 || 44 || 146 || 19 || 165 || 108 || — || 3.9 || 2.2 || 7.3 || 1.0 || 8.3 || 5.4 || —
 * 1985 || || 14
 * 21 || 79 || 22 || 146 || 32 || 178 || 112 || — || 3.8 || 1.0 || 7.0 || 1.5 || 8.5 || 5.3 || —
 * 1986 || || 14
 * 18 || 60 || 29 || 119 || 36 || 155 || 85 || — || 3.3 || 1.6 || 6.6 || 2.0 || 8.6 || 4.7 || —
 * 1987 || || 14
 * 22 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 117† || 52 || 226 || 49 || 275 || 164 || 16 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.3† || 2.4 || 10.3 || 2.2 || 12.5 || 7.5 || 0.7
 * 1988 || || 4
 * 8 || 35 || 19 || 65 || 19 || 84 || 44 || 6 || 4.4 || 2.4 || 8.1 || 2.4 || 10.5 || 5.5 || 0.8
 * 1989 || || 4
 * 11 || 78 || 24 || 122 || 18 || 140 || 92 || 5 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 7.1† || 2.2 || 11.1 || 1.6 || 12.7 || 8.4 || 0.5
 * 1990 || || 4
 * 12 || 65 || 34 || 112 || 16 || 128 || 84 || 11 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.4† || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 2.8† || 9.3 || 1.3 || 10.7 || 7.0 || 0.9
 * 1991 || || 4
 * 17 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 127† || 51 || 190 || 33 || 223 || 140 || 7 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 7.5† || 3.0 || 11.2 || 1.9 || 13.1 || 8.2 || 0.4
 * 1992 || || 4
 * 22 || 132 || 58 || 214 || 30 || 244 || 157 || 12 || 6.0 || 2.6 || 9.7 || 1.4 || 11.1 || 7.1 || 0.5
 * 1993 || || 4
 * 10 || 53 || 12 || 85 || 26 || 111 || 63 || 7 || 5.3 || 1.2 || 8.5 || 2.6 || 11.1 || 6.3 || 0.7
 * 1994 || || 4
 * 10 || 56 || 26 || 100 || 16 || 116 || 76 || 7 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.6† || 2.6 || 10.0 || 1.6 || 11.6 || 7.6 || 0.7
 * 1995 || || 4
 * 19 || 110 || 44 || 176 || 42 || 218 || 139 || 16 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.8† || 2.3 || 9.3 || 2.2 || 11.5 || 7.3 || 0.8
 * 1996 || || 4
 * 22 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 121† || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 63† || 212 || 45 || 257 || 168 || 21 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.5† || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 2.9† || 9.6 || 2.0 || 11.7 || 7.6 || 1.0
 * 1997 || || 4
 * 12 || 37 || 21 || 65 || 23 || 88 || 50 || 7 || 3.1 || 1.8 || 5.4 || 1.9 || 7.3 || 4.2 || 0.6
 * 1998 || || 4
 * 23 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 109† || 36 || 167 || 41 || 208 || 121 || 9 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 4.7† || 1.6 || 7.3 || 1.8 || 9.0 || 5.3 || 0.4
 * 1999 || || 4
 * 19 || 82 || 38 || 141 || 27 || 168 || 112 || 15 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 4.3† || 2.0 || 7.4 || 1.4 || 8.8 || 5.9 || 0.8
 * 2002 || || 46
 * 3 || 3 || 0 || 5 || 2 || 7 || 1 || 3 || 1.0 || 0.0 || 1.7 || 0.7 || 2.3 || 0.3 || 1.0
 * - class=sortbottom
 * 1995 || || 4
 * 19 || 110 || 44 || 176 || 42 || 218 || 139 || 16 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.8† || 2.3 || 9.3 || 2.2 || 11.5 || 7.3 || 0.8
 * 1996 || || 4
 * 22 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 121† || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 63† || 212 || 45 || 257 || 168 || 21 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 5.5† || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 2.9† || 9.6 || 2.0 || 11.7 || 7.6 || 1.0
 * 1997 || || 4
 * 12 || 37 || 21 || 65 || 23 || 88 || 50 || 7 || 3.1 || 1.8 || 5.4 || 1.9 || 7.3 || 4.2 || 0.6
 * 1998 || || 4
 * 23 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 109† || 36 || 167 || 41 || 208 || 121 || 9 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 4.7† || 1.6 || 7.3 || 1.8 || 9.0 || 5.3 || 0.4
 * 1999 || || 4
 * 19 || 82 || 38 || 141 || 27 || 168 || 112 || 15 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 4.3† || 2.0 || 7.4 || 1.4 || 8.8 || 5.9 || 0.8
 * 2002 || || 46
 * 3 || 3 || 0 || 5 || 2 || 7 || 1 || 3 || 1.0 || 0.0 || 1.7 || 0.7 || 2.3 || 0.3 || 1.0
 * - class=sortbottom
 * 19 || 82 || 38 || 141 || 27 || 168 || 112 || 15 || bgcolor=CAE1FF | 4.3† || 2.0 || 7.4 || 1.4 || 8.8 || 5.9 || 0.8
 * 2002 || || 46
 * 3 || 3 || 0 || 5 || 2 || 7 || 1 || 3 || 1.0 || 0.0 || 1.7 || 0.7 || 2.3 || 0.3 || 1.0
 * - class=sortbottom
 * - class=sortbottom
 * }

Feel free to compare it to the current table at the article, but this version also includes the other stylistic changes that have not yet been applied to this table but been applied to other tables. I think this might be the best way to go, but let me know if there's an easier way/workaround that I might have missed – thanks. 4TheWynne  (talk  •  contribs)  07:04, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * you can only add one element No you can just write  . Nardog (talk) 07:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, OK – I initially thought it would have needed to be formatted as  but it didn't work, so I wasn't sure, but I suppose that makes sense that it would be formatted that way given it's a template parameter. Thanks for the help!  4TheWynne   (talk  •  contribs)  08:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Can't delete file
Hi, I can't delete File:Asmaa Galal 28909190103378.JPG. After hitting the delete button, I get the following error message: "Error deleting file: Could not acquire lock. Somebody else is doing something to this file." A bug? ✗ plicit  12:26, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I was able to delete the file for you; may have been something temporary like thumbnail generation going on. — xaosflux  Talk 13:38, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Strange error message
Earlier today I clicked on a link in my contributions and got this message on a pink background:

[cd667484-97b2-47bd-842c-52b225e4dd26] 2022-08-15 20:28:20: Fatal exception of type "TypeError"

I got a similar message the second time and then somehow everything worked all right.

— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  22:31, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have gotten that occasionally for years in different places and just ignored it when it's temporary. A search finds many reports about various situations where it has happened. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I got one of those yesterday afternoon as well, must have been some system-wide but transient glitch.  Wikipedia is a big system with lots of moving parts.  Shit happens. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:03, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Map missing border.
When I view the map at Northeast Conference the border between Maryland and Pennsylvania is missing (the continuation of the border that is between Pennsylvania and West Virginia is fine). When I click the "Interactive Fullscreen Map", it is there. (It looks wierd to have the state of Maryvania. :) )Naraht (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I suspect what you're seeing is . In fact, I'm almost certain it is, because I can make the effect come and go by looking at the interactive map in various zoom levels.   you closed this phab as resolved, but it's clearly not.  Do you know what real status is? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, it looks like the currently active issue is -- RoySmith (talk) 14:42, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Color differentiation in reference numbering
Wikipedia seems to provide single (blue) color regime without option of color differentiation.

Say we have one color for a reference where WP community finds citation perfect, and other color options may be gray / violet or orange / red for different level of imperfections. Why such differentiation is not available in WP?


 * Is that because it is technically not possible in wiki software?
 * Or was it a consensus policy decision to not to have such differentiation? If it was a consensus policy decision then link to the discussion.

Where I am coming from? An on going discussion @ Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 71. One alternate solution to the issues raised there would have been color differentiation. A separate color for technical imperfections in referencing and a separate color for concerns of substandard content referencing. Was such color differentiation was never thought of by community ever seriously?

What were previous discussions,if any, just want to understand. If not then inputs for such possibilities.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 03:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Bookku using only color to differentiate the meaning of text is not accessible to all of our readers. If some sort of "quality of a reference" indicator was needed, it would need to also at least have symbols or text. As this is VPT, tech wise there isn't a mechanism for the software to color-code portions of text based on "imperfections" today - and I'm not even sure where that would begin design-wise. (What are all the user stories related to such an ask?) —  xaosflux  Talk 13:43, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:UPSD might be related to what you're looking for, but keep in mind the very very big warning at the top of the page. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:27, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Copy-paste article title also gets edit links
When I triple-click on the title of an article, it looks like the correct text is selected. But, when I copy-paste that, I find that I've also got the "edit" and "edit source" links. It's not just article titles; the same thing happens on any header.

Well, sometimes. See the second screenshot. The first line, with just "Columbia University" was pasted when I was in the source editor. The second line with the edit links was after I switched to the visual editor and pasted the same text. If I Command-Shift-V (Paste and Match Style), I just get the "Columbia University" part.

Any idea what's going on here? I'm sure this is at least partially platform-dependent (I'm on MacOS, Chrome), but perhaps there's some different markup which might give the browser/OS a better hint about how much text to include when doing copy-paste? -- RoySmith (talk) 14:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @RoySmith which skin are you using? — xaosflux  Talk 14:42, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Vector. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith one thing I notice is that you have that text there are all, that is not default. I'm assuming you are using a gadget (perhaps MediaWiki:Gadget-edittop.js) or a userscript that is inserting those extra links in to the title? That along with many of your other scripts (e.g. from User:RoySmith/common.js) may be causing portions of the page to load at different times.  To troubleshoot, turn off all your scripts and see if you can narrow this down to a conflict between scripts first. —  xaosflux  Talk 14:53, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I seem to remember that was the same advice you gave me last time :-) Anyway, I tried it with an empty common.js, which didn't change anything.  I disabled "Add an [edit] link for the lead section of a page" (which I assume is Gadget-edittop?), no effect there either.  Well, it made the link on the lead section go away, but I still had the same issue on section heads. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @RoySmith thank you, that you are getting it on section headers too is useful - as having the links there are "standard". — xaosflux  Talk 15:21, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, not that this is any surprise, but if I paste into TextEdit or Stickies, I get the "edit" and "edit source" links (and they work when you click on them). Here's the RTF that's generated if I paste into TextEdit:
 * -- RoySmith (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to duplicate this yet. There are a few new tickets open about having extra newline characters in some cases, but that's different. —  xaosflux  Talk 15:34, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, this has gotten even more interesting. I can reproduce this Safari, but not Firefox.  That in itself isn't hugely surprising since Chrome and Safari share the same Webkit heritage (at least originally).  What is astounding to me is that I can repro it in a Chrome incognito window, not logged in!  It only happens if you triple-click to select.  If you drag-select, or double-click on a single word heading, you don't get the "[edit]".
 * At this point, I'm leaning towards this being a Webkit bug. On a Mac, triple-click means something like "select the entire paragraph".  In a browser, I guess that means something like, "select the entire enclosing element which meets some criteria".  I'm not quite sure what that criteria is, but it looks like what it's doing is grabbing everything in the enclosing h1 (h2, etc) tag, which includes the "[edit]" link.  I can't fault Webkit for having a different definition of how much text to select than other browsers do, but it certainly seems wrong that the range of text copied should differ from the range of text highlighted.
 * Now I need to figure out how much further I want to go down this particular rathole :-) -- RoySmith (talk) 17:54, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Correct. Triple click is a paragraph select. The H1 is interpreted to be the paragraph. Everything within that block is selectable text and that includes the edit links. It's just that the links are visually positioned 'out of band'. Because of the weird positioning it is difficult for the browser to show that the edit links were also selected. You can actually see it slightly on H2 headers, the selection color creates a line just above the underline in that case. As far as I know this has always been like this. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:31, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This happens to me in Chrome+Monobook when using the reply tool. (And I also get the annoying "Convert formatting to wikitext? You pasted content with rich formatting. Would you like to convert this formatting to wikitext?" popup. I never ever want to paste content with rich formatting. Is there a way to disable this?) —Kusma (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * is set to . I assume it's overridden by something on your end. Nardog (talk) 10:07, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * User-select has a whole let of edge cases however. So when you drag to select, you probably cannot copy the edit section indeed, because according to the spec those items are not selectable if the selection was "started" before those items. Select all, similarly has conditions determining if such user-select none items are copied or not. But with a triple click paragraph select, I suspect there is no 'start point' of the selection and no specific behaviour has been defined and/or implemented to enable the hiding of the content.
 * The reason for these additional rules is that they wanted to protect consumers from websites that attempt to make the whole page non-copyable, as well as websites that try to manipulate the content of your pasteboard (consider someone using select none, to turn a inconspicuous command line example into a command that does something dangerous when pasted and execute..) —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 12:45, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, this is all starting to make more sense now.  If I examine the HTML (i.e. "Elements" pane in Chrome), the edit link is:
 * Chrome says the computed style for the anchor tag includes, inherited from    So, it doesn't look like anything is overriding it per-se as  suggests.  On the other hand, the MDN page on user-select says, "WebKit ... violates the behavior described in the spec", which does seem to be what's happening here. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Screen Shot showing incorrect text highlighting in Chrome.png
 * PS @TheDJ regarding your edge cases, if I go to Charles Bathgate Beck and drag-select over both the page title and the "An unassessed article..." line below it, the edit links don't show as selected. But when I copy-paste that, they're included in the pasted text. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:30, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * PS @TheDJ regarding your edge cases, if I go to Charles Bathgate Beck and drag-select over both the page title and the "An unassessed article..." line below it, the edit links don't show as selected. But when I copy-paste that, they're included in the pasted text. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:30, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Unhiding Hidden Errors in References via the CSS Question
The help for this error says that I can ask questions about Cascaded Style Sheets here, rather than at the Help Desk. If I should go to the Help Desk, then I will. I am trying to edit an article that is extensively referenced. On a Preview of my edit, I get the message that: Script warning: One or more cite book templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help). I viewed Help:CS1 errors and tried to do what it said. So I went to User:Robert McClenon/common.css, or rather, to the empty subpage that might have been there. I put in the content that the Help said, beginning with .mw-parser-output and tried to Preview the output. It says that there is a warning because Warning: Element (span.cs1-hidden-error) is overqualified, just use .cs1-hidden-error without element name.

What is overqualified? What should I do? Robert McClenon (talk) 11:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC) It is a linter warning meant to assist in writing stylistically good (in the opinion of the people who programmed the linter) CSS, but it will work just fine despite the warning, and is not something you need to concern yourself with. "Overqualified" in this context means that (if your coding style is the same as the linter's author's) it should be specific enough to use, which means "find any element that has the class  ", instead of  , which means "find any element of type   that has the class  . <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  12:38, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can safely ignore the warning.
 * The code at Help:CS1 errors is:


 * The higher specificity with  is actually necessary here to override this in Module:Citation/CS1/styles.css:


 * For example, consider 3D pose estimation (permanent link). The last reference has a hidden error message: . It is only displayed if   is included in the code.  In User:Robert McClenon/common.css you changed   to   and omitted what to do:  . As Rummskartoffel said, you can safely ignore the warning you get with the correct code. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Regarding upcoming talk page improvements
I realise that the upcoming talk page is live on some wikis (example: bn:আলাপ:ভারত). Currently, it is only in Article talk pages, but all other talk and pseudo-talk pages retain old design. I like everything about new talk page except that the new level 2 headings (default) appears like level 3 & below headings separated from each other using (4 hyphens), which I don't appreciate. Where should I report this? Thanks! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 07:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * mediawikiwiki:Talk:Talk pages project/Usability is probably the right place, but it's less focused on appearance than it is on usability. Izno (talk) 07:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Database error
I got this error while trying to save an edit: [c42d457a-4fe1-4b6f-b69f-0cf0ad0ab0b9] 2022-08-16 04:08:56: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBTransactionError" -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:10, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * And then   and other new codes as I try to save the same edit or modify my edit and save -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:12, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There's an ongoing issue — try saving the edit again in a few minutes — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 04:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: I'm able to save this edit now. It seems to have cleared up about the same time as the CAPTCHA error I reported below? -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I wanted to share with you the wiki page including the detailed incident report: Incidents/2022-08-16_x2_databases_replication_breakage. Apologies for the disruption- error messages appeared during 36 minutes for some users, preventing or making more difficult edits and certain actions, such as probably the ones mentioned on the section below. This was quickly detected by automated monitoring and a fix was implemented. Technology measures have been put in place and more are planned soon to avoid the same or similar issues from happening in the future. Again, sorry for the issues, and happy editing! --JCrespo (WMF) (talk) 18:24, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

FizzBuzz doesn't work
I've tried to write a FizzBuzz program in wikimarkup (no particular reason). Obviously, this isn't a serious project, but if anyone can see a.problem in my (incredibly messy) wikicode, it's at User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox/27. &#8213; <span id="Qwerfjkl:1660767175630:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> Qwerfjkl talk  20:12, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's a cleaner and working version using Template:For nowiki: Your original for loop based code doesn't work because, first, you have too many levels of escaping of curly braces and pipes, and second, by the time replace gets called, the templates in its argument have already been evaluated so it's already done the calculation based on the literal string "%1" * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  20:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just curious, how would you change this so that the fizz rule is "divisible by 3 or has a 3 in it" and the buzz rule is "divisible by 5 or has a five in it" (with fizz still being checked for first).Naraht (talk) 21:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * . This gets really ugly really fast. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 21:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Using a Scribunto module seems like it should be considered a loss. (At that point what's stopping you from coding it entirely in Lua?) Nardog (talk) 22:07, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a reasonable programming challenge (which is what this is, presumably), to treat the existing set of modules as the baseline of an esoteric programming language and build up from that. That baseline is no less arbitrary than the no-Lua baseline of whatever functions the developers saw fit to install in PHP, unless you are saying we should regress all the way to qif. Note that all versions, even the original in Qwerfjkl's sandbox, use Lua somewhere, although Qwerfjkl's version and my first version hide it behind template wrappers, which I could have done in my second version if I saw fit to.  . * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  23:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Pppery, thanks, I had no idea For nowiki existed. &#8213; <span id="Qwerfjkl:1660804124445:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> Qwerfjkl talk  06:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ...but it needs to be  to output FizzBuzz when divisible by 15. &#8213; <span id="Qwerfjkl:1660804391704:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> Qwerfjkl  talk  06:33, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Kindly, what is the point of this? If this were a real world case, you would be told to use Lua and to move on. This board is not for self-exploration unless it has the purpose of improving Wikipedia.
 * Please move on. Izno (talk) 06:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I dunno how you template gurus do it. Whenever I see code that looks like this, I always get a very strong itch to rewrite it in lua. – Novem Linguae (talk) 21:56, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

#Anchors in links appear to be broken on all wikis, all skins
Looks like this could be a big bug that eventually gets questions here. Creating this section to help centralize discussion. Phab ticket created. – Novem Linguae (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * . – Novem Linguae (talk) 23:21, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I saw your edit on my watchlist and ironically, the section link in the edit summary didn't work. Same in the page history and Special:Contributions/Novem Linguae. It apparently happens because the section name starts with . The automatic edit summary link goes to Village pump (technical) instead of Village pump (technical) with double  . I don't know whether it's an old bug or related to the current issue. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I created a ticket. T315631. – Novem Linguae (talk) 01:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Preferences history?
This is prompted by the above thread, but I'm breaking it out as a new section because it's a different question. Is there anyway to see your history of what preferences you've enabled/disabled and roll back to a previous state? Testing which user scripts might be doing something is fairly easy because each change to my common.js is logged and it's trivial to just roll back to the original state. When I'm playing the "which preference caused this?" game, not so much. I end up just keeping manual notes of what I'm turning off, but that's a pain and error-prone.

Also, is there any way to map from the user-visible strings ("Add an [edit] link for the lead section of a page") back to the associated gadget (MediaWiki:Gadget-edittop.js)?

And since I'm in whining and complaining mode, it would also be nice if scripts could be made to confess what they've done by adding a comment to the HTML they produce. That way, I could look at the HTML in a browser developer window and instantly see, "Oh, that link was added by Foo.js". As opposed to rummaging through different preferences pages (plus my common.js) trying to guess which it might be. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:47, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * For the last part, depending on what is being added a script could add an additional class to it. — xaosflux  Talk 15:52, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there anyway to see your history of what preferences you've enabled/disabled and roll back to a previous state? No.
 * Also, is there any way to map from the user-visible strings ("Add an [edit] link for the lead section of a page") back to the associated gadget (MediaWiki:Gadget-edittop.js)? I have previously suggested that every gadget description should have a link to its documentation or script page. Int admins (including me) are apparently lazy on the point. I will accept edit requests though if you'd like to work through the list of gadgets. :)
 * Last per Xaos. That seems like a per-script thing you can request. Izno (talk) 16:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * is there any way to map from the user-visible strings ... back to the associated gadget - perhaps the easiest way is to go to Special:Gadgets which shows the descriptive text for each gadget, together with links to the JavaScript and CSS pages that the gadget primarily uses. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * While it's not history, you might appreciate that there's a link on Special:Preferences to download "My account data from this project", and it includes your current preferences. You could treat it as a backup copy. Now someone just needs to write a gadget to restore it ;) Matma Rex talk 02:09, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Page tab problems
Is anyone else having issues with their tool tabs - when I open my page tool tab, the bolded options no longer provide drill down options when I hover over them. It would be good to know if this is an issue that has just cropped up or a known long-term problem related to script incompatibilites or some other issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I've made a hotfix for MoreMenu, which I believe is what you're referring to. T315418 is in fact what caused this. For those using Vector legacy + MoreMenu, you should soon see MoreMenu behaving normally, but the native "More" menu will still require a click to expand. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  20:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @MusikAnimal: Great! Yep. That was the one, and it seems to be working again now. Thanks. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

CAPTCHA missing
On a different edit that triggers the CAPTCHA mechanism, the CAPTCHA image is missing, so one is unable to respond to the CAPTCHA challenge as there is no image to interpret.

I assume this is related to the database problem I reported above? (this edit is unrelated to that one) -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:21, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * That I'm not sure about.. which page & is it consistently not appearing? (i.e. close the tab, re-open, refresh the page etc.) — TheresNoTime (talk • she/her) 04:39, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's consistently not appearing. It happens when I try to use {{subst:submit}} on any draft article -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:42, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: It just cleared. After reloading a couple of minutes after my last set of tries, the CAPTCHA is now loading properly -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:46, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I can also save the edit I was having problems with with the database error reported above... so it seems interlinked? -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 04:47, 16 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Please see my comment on the previous section. Apologies again. --JCrespo (WMF) (talk) 18:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Incidents/2022-08-16_x2_databases_replication_breakage is interesting, though I don't see the connection between what the DBAs did to strip cached edits and in-process atmoicized writes, and the generation or display of CAPTCHAs. Perhaps I'm missing something since I'm not a DBA fluent with how MediaWiki uses MariaDB to generate squiggly images for verification challenges. Thanks for the info -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 05:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for your question. I am certainly not a MediaWiki expert, but there is a dependency between captcha functionality for enwiki and mainstash, which was what temporarily had a disruption:

root@db1152[mainstash]> select count(*) FROM objectstash where keyname like 'enwiki:captcha:%'\G *************************** 1. row *************************** count(*): 13604 1 row in set (0.012 sec)
 * Mainstash used to live on Redis but now lives on MariaDB servers.
 * This, added to the temporal coincidence of both the start and end of the issue, based on error logs, make me quite sure both issues were related. This is why I mentioned on the report edit-related activities, as things beyond pure wiki content edits were potentially affected, but not reads.
 * Again, sorry for the disruption. --JCrespo (WMF) (talk) 09:00, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Table not updating
Wikipedia:List of administrators/stat table - Wikipedia Wakelamp d&#91;@-@&#93;b (talk) 10:27, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * List of administrators/stat table is not automatic, or bot updated. You can updated it by editing.  I've templated it as out of date. —  xaosflux  Talk 12:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Page previews displaying vandal images long after vandal edits were reverted
Some time ago today, the article Kharijites, today's featured article, was vandalised with vulgar images edited over the entire lead section. This resulted in (warning: graphic) becoming the page preview image for over an hour now. I'm fairly confident this is some server-side issue, as I've cleared my cache, and purged the article, the image, and the main page, and yet still the explicit image from the vandal attack is still showing up in the page preview on the main page of the site. I find it completely unacceptable that such a quick vandal edit could have such long-lasting effects. Is there anything that can be done about this on the technical side of things? Hecseur (talk) 19:22, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't see the graphic image. I hadn't attempted the preview until seeing this thread. Killiondude (talk) 19:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I carried out a dummy edit on the article, which seems to have sorted it out. Or maybe it was without the images in question. *shrugs* Sdrqaz (talk) 19:31, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Traditionally a Null edit is required in these circumstances. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I did do one before trying a dummy edit, but it didn't seem to have the desired effect. Sdrqaz (talk) 19:37, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am still seeing the image on mobile preview and header after accessing the article in the app yesterday, so more work may be needed to force clearing the cache on mobile. I'm unfamiliar with editing so not sure how to do it, but read this
 * How can I purge a bad image?
 * The pageimage only changes when a link in an article changes. For emergencies, please add/remove links from the page, reverting if necessary. Purging will not work. For larger emergencies please file a Phabricator ticket. MelitaJay (talk) 17:30, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I removed a link from the page and reverted it. This has solved the problem. MelitaJay (talk) 17:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

History split
Could an admin move/remove the oldest two revisions of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Honor_walk&action=history? This was someone's sandbox, and two revisions for an unrelated article seem to have been moved along with the history for the current page. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * — xaosflux  Talk 18:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ split to User:Drewmutt/sandbox/Baby cage. — xaosflux  Talk 18:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Multiple Table options when editing slowing down pages
Is anyone else getting the Tables options appearing just above the edit box multiple times when editing? I've got rows and rows of this, but only in the last 24 hours or so. It's really slowing down the page loading, practically making editing impossible, with the page crashing on some browsers. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC) PAGE ]]) 18:51, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I suddenly had that problem today, and tracked it down to my common.js being imported into itself. Fixed by this edit:  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:William_Avery/common.js&diff=prev&oldid=1105258013 I have no idea 1/ how that happened, 2/ why it didn't cause a problem before, or 3/ why the behaviour changed. You too seem to have that problem in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Iveagh_Gardens/common.js William Avery (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Iveagh Gardens You need to undo this edit: Special:Diff/1030376399. --Ahecht ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK
 * and, thank you both for that, it's been resolved. An odd sleeper bug! –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 07:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It would seem importScript no longer checks to see if a script has already been loaded, since this change William Avery (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Running js via url
I remember seeing that a certain string when appended to a page url can run javascript on a one-time basis. I don't recall that. Can someone please help? Thanks! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 07:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * You are looking for  or   —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That second one, of course, should be . The   only works for scripts in the MediaWiki namespace. For other scripts, see a similar question I answered about how to use the DYKcheck tool without installing it: Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 186. The same method could be used to run other scripts. It's not exactly what you asked for, but it may do what you need.    M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    17:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) It's  and it only allows gadgets with   at MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example?withgadget=UTCLiveClock.   can load any js page in the Mediawiki namespace, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example?withJS=MediaWiki:Gadget-UTCLiveClock.js. There is a similar  .   is part of MediaWiki since December 2021.   and   rely on code in MediaWiki:Common.js. There is also a version in mw:Snippets/Load JS and CSS by URL. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much everyone! &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 14:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Blacklisting Ahmed Alhemrayi etc.
There have multiple attempts by sockpuppets to create articles on Ahmed Al-Hemrayi Ahmed Alhemrayi, and other forms of these names. There are also attempts to evade the record by the insertion of unnecessary disambiguators after the name. I am requesting that they be added to the Title Blacklist, which says that I may also ask for advice here, perhaps about how to make the request. Several forms of the name have already been salted in article space and draft space, so the spammers are tweaking the names. Is it necessary to discuss this anywhere else, or will the previous record of the deletion and salting be sufficient? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Some of the forms are only salted in draft space. See also Ahmed Alhemyari YouTuber and Robert McClenon (talk) 00:52, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just some advice on making the request. It took me ages to discover User talk:Mr intartok. The more examples showing the scale, variations and timescales, the better. -- zzuuzz (talk) 01:29, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be better to leave an obvious title in Draftspace untouched to serve as a honeypot so that he isn't coming up with increasingly ludicrous names like Ahmed Alhemrayi' Hyper Deluxe YouTube Provocateur Hates Mirza Ahmad And Wants Wikipedia To Take Control Of Google To Get Those Fucking Search Results That I Look Up But Refuse To Admit It Changed? —<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i>  v^&lowbar;^v  a little blue Bori 01:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I hate to see draftspace be salted because it non-salt allows recreation within draftspace at a location that is probably in someone's watchlist (if Twinkle is used for CSD nom). If someone is determined enough, salting would force them to create something like "Biography of Foo Bar" or "YouTube career of Foo Bar" instead of just "Foo Bar" which makes recreation detection difficult. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 05:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Good points and I’ve done just that so I can tell when it has been recreated. Doug Weller  talk 18:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

WP:Contents issue
I am in the process of redesigning the WP:Contents page. At the bottom of the page, where it says content listings, there is a vertical line that I can't seem to get rid of. I tried editing the page a lot to see if I can get it, but to no avail. I'm hoping to get some help regarding how I can fix this. Interstellarity (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * it looks like this line is a border added by the intro to single template. adding "|noborder=y" (after "|padbottom=20px", for example) should resolve your issue.  dying (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Dying: Thank you, that resolves the issue. I would also like to get rid of the whitespace between Category:Contemporary history by country and the Content listings. What can I do to fix that? Interstellarity (talk) 22:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * i think that is just the space that the template inserts after what is defined as the lead, and before what is defined as the top. right now, the top is not defined, but most of the text is in the lead, so the space appears between the lead and the bottom.  the space can be shifted up by adding "| top =" somewhere (on the line above "== Vital articles ==", for example).  dying (talk) 22:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Dying I would like to know on the contents page, how to fix the page width to variable which was raised at WP:VPI so that it looks better. Interstellarity (talk) 14:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * it looks like xaosflux is correct, and the width is hardcoded into the template you were using. although it may be possible to override this, i would not worry about it too much, as the redesign has been reverted, citing  of a similar redesign of the about page.  dying (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Graph module for Vega 3+
Hi, recently development of Graph Extension is more active. There's a slim shade of hope that Vega framework will be updated to a more recent version in the near future. Most of the graphs in Wikipedia articles are generated by template and associated Scribunto module – it's based on Vega 2 syntax. It's incompatible with Vega 3+.

Is anyone currently working on a new version (or complete rewriting) of this module Module:Graph prepared for Vega 3+?

Some part of code are workarounds of bugs in current version extension. Many bugs mentioned by editors can't be solved by module or template. For reference please see Template_talk:Graph:Chart and Module_talk:Graph

Current module is handling the most of the processing of user provided data. It seems that Vega 3+ can do the bulk of this work, presumably with better results and faster. It also can handle and transform external data (eg. Wiki data or tables) very well.

Maybe it would be a good idea to switch to Vega-Lite syntax. It's more human friendly and easier to understand. Syntax is simpler and requires less input for typical charts.

Any ideas? Volunteers? Unfounded critique? Pietrasagh (talk) 11:48, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See T223026 in Phabricator. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 23:41, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Sogdian language rendering support
In the Sogdian language article my Firefox browser displays gibberish instead of native characters and there's no in-article link to fix it. Where can I download relevant rendering support for Firefox? Brandmeistertalk  10:43, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Brandmeister: has links to Noto Sans Old Sogdian and Noto Sans Sogdian. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  11:01, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, works except the last line. Sogdian alphabet states it uses three scripts, but the infobox seemingly has four scripts, that fourth script doesn't render properly for me, despite installing both fonts. Brandmeistertalk  11:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Brandmeister: Right, I missed that one. You'll need Noto Sans Manichaean as well. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 11:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Automatically hide TOC in Vector 2022
Hello,

I would like to automatically hide the table of contents on every page load.

I am using the new Vector 2022 skin.

I tried to achieve this by manually triggering the "click" event of the "hide" button when the page loads. I added to following lines to my JS page:

But, unfortunately nothing happens, and the TOC keeps appearing on the sidebar when the page loads. The code DOES work when I run it from my browser's console, but does nothing when added to my common.js page, even after clearing my browser's cache.

Does anyone have an idea how can I hide the TOC automatically on every page?

Thanks, Guycn2 (talk) 15:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work because the javascript executes before the TOC has loaded. Something like this may work, though still very hacky (it checks for the button every 500 ms until it's found, then clicks it): –  SD0001  (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! Guycn2 (talk) 16:59, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit Notices on Mobile
Notice, WP:ENOM has launched wave 3 of the deployment, visibility to all autoconfirmed users. If there is a major breaking change discovered, this may be reverted at MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition. For other feedback, Wikipedia talk:EditNoticesOnMobile is available. — xaosflux  Talk 18:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

CORS errors on WikiNav
Has WikiNav stopped working? It appears it tries to fetch data from wikinav.wmcloud.org, which is not returning the required CORS headers. Is there a way to circumvent this? I tried accessing wikinav.wmcloud.org directly but it's 502. Nardog (talk) 19:12, 22 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Broken for me too. Certes (talk) 19:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * An issue was opened in the WikiNav project on GitHub two days ago about this. The people listed as administrators here are the people with server access who should be able to log in and restart/fix it. Multiple people have also brought it up in the #wikimedia-research IRC channel, hopefully one of those mechanisms will get a response. Legoktm (talk) 22:50, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-34
<section begin="technews-2022-W34"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * Two problems with Kartographer maps have been fixed. Maps are no longer shown as empty when a geoline was created via VisualEditor. Geolines consisting of points with QIDs (e.g., subway lines) are no longer shown with pushpins.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 7:00 UTC (targeted wikis).
 * The colours of links and visited links will change. This is to make the difference between links and other text more clear.

Future changes
 * The new [] button helps newcomers get answers. The Editing team is enabling this tool everywhere.  You can turn it off in your preferences.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W34"/>

00:09, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Duplicate tabs for user scripts (editProtectedHelper, csdhelper)
I went away last week, and this week I am seeing duplicates for some of my user scripts (User:Jackmcbarn/editProtectedHelper and User:Ale_jrb/Scripts/csdhelper.js specifically). With EPHelper I get two rows of the same buttons (i.e. two "Respond", two "Remove request", etc), and with CSDhelper I get two "Speedy" tabs at the top of the page next to the Talk tab. I'm sure this is a THURSDAY issue, but I can't find anything obvious in the release notes to see what it was, and I'm not seeing a phab task indicating that anyone else has noticed (though I've never been good at finding tasks on there). Primefac (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Primefac: Assuming you are using the Vector skin, you are importing the scripts twice: common.js line 2 and vector.js line 16 for editProtectedHelper and common.js line 3 and vector.js line 18 for csdhelper. Apparently (see help desk question about the same issue),  used to deduplicate imports, but no longer does so. Removing the duplicate imports should fix it. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  10:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Primefac (talk) 10:10, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

refill ng
input: output:
 * https://refill.toolforge.org/ng/ changes ref URL ! ! !
 * 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx this is an external tool, you may report issues using the information here ReFill. — xaosflux  Talk 10:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx this is an external tool, you may report issues using the information here ReFill. — xaosflux  Talk 10:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx this is an external tool, you may report issues using the information here ReFill. — xaosflux  Talk 10:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 02:42, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @0mtwb9gd5wx this is an external tool, you may report issues using the information here ReFill. — xaosflux  Talk 10:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Section edit deletes rest of page
This is an issue that occasionally appears. With this section edit I accidentally replaced the rest of the page with just the edited section. This happens if when an edit section preview is saved in the browser cache. This happend when I started the edit one day and previewed it, closed the browser without saving the edit, then finished the edit the next day in a new browser session. Everything looks normal as you preview the section, but when you save it the rest of the page is gone. While the simple solution is not to use cached edits, it's not a behaviour that should be expected. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 09:34, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * When I start a section edit at Talk:Fish, the url is https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fish&action=edit&section=8. After a preview it becomes https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fish&action=submit, the same as if I edited the whole page. Is it the same url's for you? The information that you edited a section is no longer in the url. When you closed the browser, this information was apparently lost. After reopening the browser, it remembered the last url and what you had in the text area but did not communicate with MediaWiki that it was a section edit. MediaWiki apparently assumed it was a whole page edit. I don't know whether this is a known issue or has a fix other than not doing that. What is the browser? PrimeHunter (talk) 14:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, the lack of the section in the preview url explains it. The the browser (Firefox) must cached the contents of the edit window but not the information needed to handle the section. I suppose I'll just have to be careful. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:44, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Template font size
Who's Who generates reduced size font. There are over 2,000 transclusions and the majority seem to be uses within the references section, where the font is already 90%, so the further reduction violates MOS:SMALL (e.g Maggie O'Farrell ref #8). What's the best way to resolve this? There could be a template parameter to specify font reduction when the template is used in normal-size text (if there are any, someone would have to find those and edit them). Is there a better way? <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 17:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * , a similar issue is present in template Cite OED, used for example in ref #10 in Alchemy. The problem comes from Template:Link note, which has hardcoded CSS . I think the best solution is just to remove this bit of the CSS – output of Link note is already A) wrapped in parentheses and B) also has CSS   (which some people don't like either). —⁠andrybak (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It looks like there are 34k more from subscription required that would also be fixed. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 18:05, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 95% (Link note) times 90% (references) is sufficiently sized for MOS:SMALL (>85%). There is a way that this could depend on where the text appears (TemplateStyles).
 * That said, our MOS:SMALL probably needs to be adjusted to point out the absolute minimum in pixels/pts, as text sizes on Wikipedia have generally increased with each new skin. There is also CSS which is newer but could be used later in the future (or double declared even today e.g.  or some such). Izno (talk) 18:35, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think using a percentage as guidance is still preferable, under the assumption that readers will use their browser zoom capability to set the base font size to a comfortable size for them. (I know this is not universally true, but it's a reasonable default assumption, as teaching someone how to use their browser zoom feature will enable them to set their desired font size on Wikipedia and other sites.) isaacl (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Pixels being an example of "the minimum font size is actually X size, and we should not let anything go lower than that, percentages or otherwise". Our 85% rule is based on computing what the minimum font size was in Monobook, but Vector, new Vector, and Timeless all have larger font sizes, so it stands to reason that we can use smaller fonts and that really, it should be defined by the absolute minimum. Pixel-based sizes still respond to zoom anyway. Izno (talk) 22:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, precisely because pixel-based sizes zoom, I think a percentage is still preferable. A user will use the zoom function to adjust the base font to a comfortable size, no matter what pixel size the skin has set. Thus specifying a reasonable minimum size as a percentage of the base font size will automatically scale to the user's preference. isaacl (talk) 22:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Then I don't see what issue you have with . And anyway, that was illustrative. Izno (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I apologize for not being clear. I wasn't referring to your code sample, but your statement our MOS:SMALL probably needs to be adjusted to point out the absolute minimum in pixels/pts. isaacl (talk) 23:01, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * , I have increased the font size at link note to 95%, which fixes this MOS:SMALLFONT problem. Thanks for reporting it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:41, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

mbox is now TemplateStyled only
Please report any issues you see at MediaWiki talk:Common.css. Thanks! Izno (talk) 17:50, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Congrats! 🥳 Jon (WMF) (talk) 21:23, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Congratulations indeed! What's next on the list, .hlist? —⁠andrybak (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can help (decide). ;) Izno (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

dashes script malfunction
Of late, the dashes script and various mirrors have stopped performing, and the   button that calls the script in the dropdown menu (  tab) has been replaced by. At the same time, the script functionality has also disappeared. However, none of the core AutoEd modules seems to have changed. What could be causing this issue?  Ohc  revolution of our times 09:47, 19 August 2022 (UTC) file/page. Dawnseeker2000 16:22, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The importScript call at line 150 is (I know not why) no longer returning a truthy value, so various things are not being set. I created a version of the script without that condition at User:William Avery/dashes.js, and it seems to work on my sandbox. William Avery (talk) 12:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It would seem importScript is no longer synchonous since this change. William Avery (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I completely removed it from my common.js a couple of days ago. I was concerned because of the what is mentioned above, but also the warning on GregU's dashes script, "Code that you insert on this page could contain malicious content capable of compromising your account." I really loved the convenience of using it, but not unless someone can come up with a safe and reliable code for us. — Maile  (talk) 23:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The warning is a standard warning and is something you should be concerned with for all the scripts you use. This particular issue is not pertinent to why that warning is there. Izno (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The fix for this issue is to replace  with   on your common.js
 * importScript is not, and never used to be, synchronous. However, you're right that it no longer returns a truthy value, which is causing GregU's version to not work. Putting the importScript call in an if condition to check whether AutoEd has loaded, will no longer work – it should instead check if a global created by AutoEd is defined. – SD0001  (talk) 18:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Vector 2022 now leaving a lot of blank space on the left and right of my screen.
A waste of space and I'm sure not what was intended. Doug Weller talk 16:19, 21 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The blank space is intended, see and . <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  16:55, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Rummskartoffel and this change was done in the last day? It doesn’t show on my iPad just my Wondows pc. Doug Weller  talk 19:03, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * None that I know about; there's (supposed to have) been a lot of blank space in Vector-2022 on larger screens for a while now. A difference between an iPad and a (presumably larger) PC screen would be expected. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 19:52, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Doug Weller, if you don't want to keep this extra whitespace, then I found a gadget today that I've enabled that reduces the whitespace that's added. It's called wide-vector-2022 and is near the bottom of the gadgets list. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 22:50, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The gadget is only listed at Special:Preferences if your skin is Vector 2022. Here is a comparison of Wikipedia in Vector 2022 [ without the gadget] (assuming you haven't enabled the gadget) and [ with the gadget]. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems ok now. Doug Weller  talk 20:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Scripts now loading on mobile?
Have changes been made to the mobile code? I'm noticing the diff id is appearing in plain text when I load from watchlist and some of my userscripts are now loading in mobile mode (en.m). If so, any place I can see what changes were made? No real issue, just trying to see what else I can now do without switching to desktop mode. Slywriter (talk) 20:27, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. Scripts you import using  will now load on mobile. The change is this one, there's no phab ticket I think. –  SD0001  (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It was probably caused by the recent chatter in phab:T27845. Izno (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Kephir/gadgets/unclutter
Something has been changed on MediaWiki 1.39/wmf.25, causing the Signature minimisation to no longer work. The developer has not edited in two years, so just wondering if someone else could troubleshoot instead. 1989 (talk) 19:37, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's because of this change in mediawiki. This script internally uses  and expects it to return a style tag object. But this is no longer the case. Depending on what exactly the script does this for, there may or may not be a straightforward fix for this. One option is to propose a mediawiki change to keep the legacy return value. –  SD0001  (talk) 20:35, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Any chance this could be amended? There could be more scripts no longer working because of this change. 1989 (talk) 21:06, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have filed a patch: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/core/+/825906. – SD0001  (talk) 21:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks @1989 for reporting the issue, and thank you @SD0001 for reminding me in Gerrit. I was distracted for a few days. This is now fixed and deployed as of yesterday. My apologies as the original change in fact was meant to solidify and expand compatibility, not break it. This function was not part of any test suite for over a decade. It is now covered by an automated test suite by my first change, and I've restored the "once" and "return" details as well and covered those similarly with tests. This should automatically prevent similar regressions in the future before any software change or deployment. Krinkle (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Deactivating certain global scripts per local project
Hello!

Is there a way to have some globally activated user scripts (Meta - global.js) not affect certain local projects (exclude them)? - Klein Muçi (talk) 09:04, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Change enwiki to the wiki you want to disable scripts. You can see a working example at my global.js (from line 55 until end) but it's a mess tbh. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:15, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @CX Zoom, thanks a lot! Exactly what I wanted. And thank you for the detailed example! :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:17, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @CX Zoom, what would I need to do if I wanted to disable them on more than 1 wikiproject? doesn't work.<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661304614711:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 01:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Izno (talk) 02:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Izno, thank you! :)<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661307546370:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 02:19, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Bug in movable lunar calendar calculations.
I found a bug in lunar calendar date calculations. Current years are correct, the bug shows up as a 10 day discrepancy in 2024. I reported this on the talk page of the template where I found the bug (the above link), where editor verified the problem. However the buggy code is not in that template, but buried further down. Somebody at the Teahouse suggested this is the right place to report the bug. -- M.boli (talk) 12:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The problem appears to be . For example ==, but should be 2024-02-10. --  Green  C  14:10, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Wayback Machine not working -- anyone know why or for how long?
I can't get Wayback Machine (https://archive.org/web/) on any browser (I'm on Windows). I use Wayback regularly so it was probably working at least 48 hours ago. Anyone know why it's down, and for how long? Softlavender (talk) 00:56, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's been down for over an hour. Schierbecker (talk) 00:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * https://archive.is/ .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If someone notices it's back up again, can you please ping me? Softlavender (talk) 03:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Twitter update. Known and being worked on. --  Green  C  05:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * removed tracking 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wayback is up again. —Bruce1eetalk 14:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Duplicated header tabs on Timeless
Must be THURSDAY... is anyone else having duplicated header tabs on Timeless? I know it's not a script, I've been able to reproduce this issue with safemode. ~ Matthewrb  Talk to me &middot;  Changes I've made 15:59, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * After some additional searching, it appears to have been reported to Phab: T316196 ~ Matthewrb  Talk to me &middot;  Changes I've made 16:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Is there an update to Vector-2022 today/yesterday?
Not sure if there is an update to Vector-2022 on 18 August 2022 and/or 19 August 2022, as Xtools and Shortdesc helper are suddenly no longer functional despite both already enabled in gadgets. Both gadgets were working fine on 17 August 2022 and before.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  12:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Paper9oll, I fixed XTools Article Info gadget on bnwiki in my own way. <span id="Yahya:1660920618689:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt">— Yahya ( talk  •  contribs. ) 14:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Yahya Haven't tried your script, but this isn't really a permanent solution. But any idea, if it's due to an update to Vector-2022 that rolled out probably in past 2 days, that causes both tools to suddenly stopped functioning in Vector-2022? Not sure, if the update removed or renamed some css classes that causes both tools to no longer function/display.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  16:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The XTools gadget has now been fixed, both here on enwiki as well as the global script. Ironically, I was asked how the gadget worked so that the team would not break it, but it looks like that inquiry was for a different project (DiscussionTools), and unrelated to the change in Vector 2022. &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  19:41, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Please could you give some detail of how you fixed your gadget – there are other scripts that currently hunt for the contentSub id. Shortdesc-helper attaches to #contentSub and I have a user script that does the same thing. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 17:20, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @GhostInTheMachine I did the same as Yahya did on bnwiki and am now inserting the content before, but only for Vector-2022. Hope this helps. &mdash;  MusikAnimal  talk  22:08, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks . Would it be more "tidy" to insert the new content into the top of ? i.e. $("#bodyContent").prepend( $(" New info ") ). This would keep the bodyContent div as the outermost container for all of the displayed content. It would also mean that the code does not need to test for a specific skin by name. Hopefully, navigating via only the bodyContent id might also be safer against any further skin changes that are outside of our control. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 08:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * As well as Shortdesc Helper, d:User:Yair rand/WikidataInfo.js has stopped working for me on Vector 2022 around this time. Ham II (talk) 08:39, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The Wikidata script is working for me now on Vector 2022, but Shortdesc Helper still isn't. Ham II (talk) 07:15, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed in shortdesc helper. Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Ham II (talk) 17:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion Tools / Reply Tool - find user is not working

 * WP:ITSTHURSDAY - Note, there is a known issue, T316219 that the "Find user" is broken in discussion tools, including Reply-tool right now. — xaosflux  Talk 13:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * This should now be resolved. — xaosflux  Talk 21:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

"Undo" greyed out (but CTRL+Z works)
This isn't a new problem, but rather something I've noticed since switching from Firefox to Chrome around 2010. If you make a mistake on most websites, Gmail for example, you can right click+"undo" to fix the mistake. On Wikipedia, I can only get the right-click method to work some of the time. It works when I use the reply tool, but almost never when using the source editor. Usually when I use the source editor, "undo" is greyed out (or in Edge, "undo" does not even appear). It's not a huge problem (I've recently overcome my laziness and learned to use Alt CTRL+Z), but maybe some other editors don't know about the shortcut. I use Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge in Windows 11. Schierbecker (talk) 23:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's control+z. Alt+z or alt+shift+z, etc. is the access key for the Main Page. Graham 87 06:49, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Oops. I meant CTRL+Z, User:Graham87. Schierbecker (talk) 07:25, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Schierbecker, it looks like you're using the 2010 WikiEditor. It's possible that the 2017WTE ("New wikitext mode" in Special:Preferences) would work the way you want. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

What's causing the pink highlighting in this Afd comment?
What's causing the pink highlighting on the comment of 22:50, 22 August 2022 (diff; perma) in this Afd? The highlighting includes the four indented replies, and stops at the next bullet item flush left, and is visible on multiple browsers on Win 10 and iOS 15. Here's a bit of rendered html which might help.

(Last bit of preceding, unhighlighted comment shown for context:) ...It's anti-creationist. <a href="/wiki/User:RedactedUserA" title="User:RedactedUserA">RedactedUserA</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:RedactedUserA" title="User talk:RedactedUserA">talk</a>) 02:48, 24 August 2022 (UTC)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-comment="{&quot;type&quot;:&quot;comment&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:3,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;c-RedactedUserA-20220824024800-RedactedUserB-20220822224500&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[],&quot;timestamp&quot;:&quot;20220824024800&quot;,&quot;author&quot;:&quot;RedactedUserA&quot;}"> </dd></dl></li></ul> (Start of comment by User1 with pink highlighting) <ul><li> Delete. Per all of the above. Nothing else to say, except that (Some content redacted here) depending on the result of the discussion on the WikiProject Talk page, naturally). <a href="/wiki/User:RedactedUser1" title="User:RedactedUser1">RedactedUser1</a> (<a href="/wiki/User_talk:RedactedUser1" title="User talk:RedactedUser1">talk</a>) 22:50, 22 August 2022 (UTC)<span class="ext-discussiontools-init-replylink-buttons" data-mw-comment="{&quot;type&quot;:&quot;comment&quot;,&quot;level&quot;:2,&quot;id&quot;:&quot;c-RedactedUser1-20220822225000-RedactedUser2-20220822032200&quot;,&quot;replies&quot;:[&quot;c-RedactedUser3-20220823005600-RedactedUser1-20220822225000&quot;],&quot;timestamp&quot;:&quot;20220822225000&quot;,&quot;author&quot;:&quot;RedactedUser1&quot;}">   (End of first comment with hightlighting; all replies also highlighted; here's the first bit of the first reply, for context:)  <dl><dd> DO NOT DELETE -- There is clearly a ...

I just don't see what is causing this. Mathglot (talk) 06:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: I have script User:Headbomb/unreliable.js installed that pink-highlights refs that link to unreliable sources, and this comment set includes a twitter link (see the diff or permalink) but I thought that only highlights the source, not an entire comment set. Pinging User:Headbomb just in case. Mathglot (talk) 07:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See User:Headbomb/unreliable. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef 07:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Thanks, User:0xDeadbeef. (Note to self: RTFM.) ✅. Mathglot (talk) 07:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can put the twitter link in brackets to only highlight the link, e.g. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 08:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks much for the additional tip. Mathglot (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot and anyone else who only wants to keep track of one or two sections on a page like this: Look in Special:Preferences for an item called "Enable topic subscription".  It'll be turned on everywhere before long.  You can try it out just on this page by clicking here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)?dtenable=1 Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, I see that already; or at least, I have a [subscribe] link on every section on this page, including this one. I assume that means I must have opted in to a beta feature already, though I haven't tried it, iirc. It should definitely ease my notifications for discussions on highly active pages like noticeboards; that will make a big difference. Mathglot (talk) 03:19, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Can't make image larger
Okay, last time I asked about this I was terribly misunderstood and the issue was not resolved. I am currently working on the Josquin des Prez article and am unable to increase the size of the lead image of a woodcut of Josquin. I have tried using both "px number" or "upright=1.whatever" as I normally do to change images, but for some reason this is not working. Does anyone know what the issue is? I am just trying to make it a little larger so it fits the width of the Renaissance music sidebar below.  Aza24  (talk)   04:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's just a really tiny image (as uploaded) - only 20kb. When they say "No higher resolution available" on the file you can't make it any larger on-wiki, afaik anyway. You could find a larger file & upload that, or no doubt expand it with photo-editing software off-wiki, then upload that. Johnbod (talk) 04:55, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks John! New image now uploaded.  Aza24  (talk)   05:49, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

"More" dropdown in Vector Legacy tab bar is broken
As of today, when I roll over the "More" tab in the tab bar on Vector Legacy, the menu doesn't show up. I have to click it to make it show up, where previously I could just roll over it. I tried it with my alt account and I had the same problem so it's not caused by a gadget or script. Is there a Phabricator ticket for this? — python coder (talk &#124; contribs) 05:34, 26 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Known bug. There's a patch for this one currently in code review. T315418. Should hopefully be fixed in a week or two. – Novem Linguae (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Text jumbled up extending outside normal edit forms
Hello! Many times while browsing Wikipedia in mobile, if I open a page for editing, the source code may extend far beyond the editing form, jumbling up with other text sections at the bottom of the page. I happened to see that same effect on a page while on laptop now. I've never understood what exactly causes that effect and I became curious. Can someone explain to me why that happens and what may be some remedies for it if I ever encounter it (mobile/desktop)? - Klein Muçi (talk) 21:48, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Please specify the Editor with which you experience this. Nardog (talk) 21:59, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Nardog, I've always dreaded talking about editors and notifications because I can never specify correctly which is which BUT I'll try to describe it as good as I can.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>In mobile I've usually encountered that effect while trying to reply back in discussions, while being the in the mobile site. The only remedy I know of is to switch to the desktop site (from m.wikipedia.org to wikipedia.org.). In my laptop now, I encountered it while editing templatedata in a template. The numbered lines were extending beyond the text form. Funny enough, I switched to the mobile site and I was able to make the edit I wanted to make.<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661379669994:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 22:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Klein Muçi, can you make some screenshots and post them to ? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 03:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Whatamidoing, I will if I encounter it again. If you can't already tell by the way I made my question, I thought it was a common/known thing. That's why I've never thought doing anything about it.<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661512029511:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 11:07, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

ISBN Converter
https://www.loc.gov/publish/pcn/isbncnvt_pcn.html .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * what is the technical issues, About Wikipedia that you are trying to discuss here? — xaosflux  Talk 13:20, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

This note at the end is interesting:
 * Note: The United States ISBN Agency will soon begin assigning ISBNs starting with the prefix element 979 (in addition to the ISBNs with prefix element 978 currently assigned). Prior to 2007, the ISBN was 10 digits in length. In January 2007, the 13-digit ISBN launched to increase the capacity of the ISBN system. To date, 13-digit ISBNs assigned by the U.S. ISBN Agency include the 978 prefix, which allowed systems to contain both 10- and 13-digit ISBNs for all books. However, a 13-digit ISBN starting with 979 does not have an equivalent 10-digit ISBN. Once this change takes place, only 13-digit ISBNs starting with 978 or 979 should be used to identify a book.

10 and 13 are interchangeable meaning can translate between the two with a translator (I use a CLI tool). However the above is saying, I think, they are running out of the 13-digit ISBNs so they are creating a new 13-digit block that begins with 979 - they used to all start with 978 - and the 979's have no 10-digit equivalent. And they are deprecating the 10-digit entirely ("only 13-digits should be used") which I guess is true for new books issued but for Wikipedia citations it creates some confusion for verification since many old books were only known by the 10-digit, and that's how they are listed in many library catalogs. -- Green  C  15:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I recommend that people interested in ISBN conversion try the ISBN tool I wrote, which should support ISBNs beginning with 979 so long as their range data is available in the official RangeMessage.xml file provided by the International ISBN Agency. Last I checked, the range data is fairly thin for the 979 prefix, largely because most of the possible values within the prefix remain unassigned. {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 16:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Sidebar customisation by namespace
''XPosted from MW.org's support desk. Since this received no replies the first time, I'll try my luck here and see what actions/suggestions can be respectively taken/received.''

On my creative-venture wiki, I've had a bit of trouble getting a particular sidebar section to work on the namespaces it's supposed to be visible on. Despite following the advice at mw:Manual:Interface/Sidebar, the target section is not showing up and the affected HTML segment is no better for it.

From my site's own Sidebar message:

HTML source:

Either I'll have to wait on a native fix from or otherwise, or I'll provide a CSS-based solution of my own if it works later. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 14:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The only  should be in the output of the parser functions, i.e. before the link text. Try normal pipes in all other places. I don't have a place to test it myself. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Though I followed your advice, nothing--not even the MW.org approach--seems to work (at least on my site). When previewed through the Refreshed and Truglass skins, the sidebar setup at this writing:
 * only displays the "Tovasala" header with nothing below it. Either I'll get the Miraheze Phabricator team to look into it, or I'll have to go the CSS route myself...
 * P.S. Is this no longer actually supported in MW 1.38+? --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 11:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Now tracked at MH T9699 in case anyone's paying further attention. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 20:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We aren't a support forum for non-WMF wikis. Please move along. Izno (talk) 20:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We aren't a support forum for non-WMF wikis. Please move along. Izno (talk) 20:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Editing news 2022 #2
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter



The new [] button notifies people when someone replies to their comments. It helps newcomers get answers to their questions. People reply sooner. You can read the report. The Editing team is turning this tool on for everyone. You will be able to turn it off in your preferences.

–Whatamidoing (WMF) (User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)) 00:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't have a specific deployment date for this wiki, but I want to say that I really like this and use it regularly. I'm curious how it will change our communication patterns in the long term.  (Will we ping less, since everyone subscribes/follows the threads they're interested in?  Will we learn to deliberately slow down our response times in heated conversations?) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 03:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It would be fantastic if someone could produce a gadget to move these pings out of the notification bar and into the watchlist where every other reply appears. I don't know whether that's technically possible.  Then we could, for example, watch one RfD without triggering a watchlist entry every time someone comments on a different redirect listed on the same day.  Certes (talk) 10:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've been using the [ subscribe ] button for months. It's a huge efficiency. My main use case is watching a section of a busy noticeboard, without watchlisting the entire 100-edit-a-day noticeboard. I really hope they implement this Phab ticket, which would let you subscribe to headings lower than the first level. This would open up a whole new world of useful subsections to subscribe to on pages such as AE, TFD, CFD, RFD, FFD, RPFF/I, DRV, and ITN. – Novem Linguae (talk) 10:13, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A gadget is not technically possible. Izno (talk) 17:12, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Certes, you could try Bawl which can do both (notifications and watchlist).<span id="Qwerfjkl:1661547820147:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  21:03, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Problem with G13 eligible soon category
Hi, folks,

We have a category that some editors working in the AFC area check, Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions. It contains drafts and user pages that will become eligible for CSD G13 status in the next 30 days. Sometimes editors check the category to tag drafts for deletion when they become eligible, other times they "rescue" promising drafts that would otherwise be deleted. Typically, the total number of pages is around 3,000-5,000 drafts and user pages. The number can sometimes go down to 2,000 but the category always refills itself. We use to have a problem with the category becoming empty about a year or year and a half ago but I worked with ProcrastinatingReader and he had some way of making sure that the category periodically refilled.

Any way, there haven't been any problems with this category for a long time but I periodically check it and the category is down to 1,426 pages! We typically have 200-225 drafts expire each day so that isn't even a week's worth of pages. I went to ProcrastinatingReader's talk page but he has been away since May 2022. I'm not sure what he did to refill the category but I'm guessing it had something to do with bots categorizing drafts and I'm hoping someone here will know something or at least have a good guess.

We do have a back-up system, SDZeroBot's lists, but some editors prefer to use the category because it has had the most up-to-date listing. Any ideas or fixes you can think of? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 05:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I posted this message at the Bot Noticeboard 9 days ago and didn't get any helpful advice there except a report of a sighting of PR on a phab ticket. I've since emailed PR but no response. The category is now down to 550 pages and will be completely empty in a few days. Any advice from anyone on what can be done here? Thanks! Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 18:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is this one of the problems that can be fixed by performing a null edit on all pages linked from User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon sorting? —Kusma (talk) 19:57, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello, Kusma,
 * I don't know about that but there are 5942 drafts on that page! I'm not skilled in the editing tools that would make this possible other than manually doing this over the weekend and I'm not that ambitious. But thanks for the suggestion. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 22:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably yes. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 22:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The proposed algorithm (null editing all wikilinks on the page User:SDZeroBot/G13_soon_sorting) would be super easy to code a bot for, and I am willing to do so. As a test of the proposed algorithm, I tried purging and null editing Draft:Grayson Souter, which is on the User:SDZeroBot/G13_soon_sorting list but not the Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions list, and it did not add itself to the category. Am I doing something wrong, or is the algorithm incorrect? Let's get the algorithm verified with a test case before moving forward. That is, let's find a page that should be in the category but isn't, null edit it, then make sure it appears in the category after the null edit. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I found some documentation for ProcBot. At User:ProcBot/PurgeList: The bot can purge all members of a category, including their links and categories. Use page User:ProcBot/PurgeList2. So it appears to be a purge, not a null edit. On the PurgeList2 page, we have the following data:
 * Most of that seems straightforward, except the "including their links and categories" part. Does that mean it does some sort of recursion? Hmm. I wish PR had released their source code. Re-inventing the wheel is kind of meh. Ping @ProcrastinatingReader on the off chance they log in. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think it just means passing  to the purge API (see Special:ApiHelp/purge). And Draft:Grayson Souter did not get added to the category because it's not an AfC submission (the category is added by AfC submission) * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...  23:01, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * – Novem Linguae (talk) 23:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * – Novem Linguae (talk) 23:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Redlinks are a different red
It's Thursday, and the red links seem to have a different red color. What may be causing this? Weeklyd3 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's deliberate. See and T213778. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. I don't like this new color so I'm changing it back in my CSS file. Weeklyd3 (talk) 23:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm going to give it a week or two before I make any decisions about it. This sort of change always feels weird initially. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 03:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't like the new visited link colour, especially in my watchlist. Dreamy <i style="color:#d00">Jazz</i> talk to me &#124; my contributions 14:43, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm glad they made the change, but I don't really want the new colors right now and I can't figure out how the CSS works to customize it. — Danre98 ( talk ^ contribs ) 13:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What the Tech News item doesn't say is that only the Vector skin is affected. —Kusma (talk) 12:17, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Global login
Has something changed in the way global login works? I logged out yesterday and I logged back in here and I found out that I wasn't logged in anywhere else anymore. I waited a bit, tried different projects, refreshed the page and cleared caches but nothing worked. I tried logging in "locally" and yes, it worked fine but still it looks like I have to do that on every project now. I thought that maybe something has changed and now I need to login to Meta to make it global so I went there and there was the only place where I got the mw.notify message saying that I should reload to load my user settings (without needing to log in first). I thought it got fixed and I would be logged in globally after that but I went to Commons immediately after and, no, I still wasn't. What is going on? - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:17, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unable to reproduce. When I do the logout and login thing, it will either keep me logged in on other projects, or it will re-log me in when I load a second page on that project. Perhaps a recent bug in ExtensionCentralAuth? Does anyone else have OP's problem? – Novem Linguae (talk) 11:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Novem Linguae, it's very inconsistent. I followed your MW link now and it gave me the message to reload for applying user settings on Mediawiki. Tried going to WikiQuote and I don't get it. Maybe it's a temporary server/database problem. :/<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661514451229:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 11:47, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, some projects don't log you back in at all, right? – Novem Linguae (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Novem Linguae, they don't log me back automatically. I can log in normally to them if I put my credentials and they stay logged in.<span id="Klein_Muçi:1661514874168:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Klein Muçi (talk) 11:54, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * What browser are you using? It may be blocking certain cookies needed for central login. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 14:45, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Google Chrome. Klein Muçi (talk) 15:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmm, then it's less likely cookies being blocked is the problem, Chrome doesn't really do that as much, AFAIK. Still, try going to chrome://settings/cookies and making sure that "Block third-party cookies" or "Block all cookies (not recommended)" are not selected, but instead either "Allow all cookies" or "Block third-party cookies in Incognito". <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 16:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Rummskartoffel, I switched to "Allow all cookies" momentarily and that fixed it! Thank you! There I saw the option: Sites that can always use cookies
 * Do you know what exactly would I need to put into it to allow all Wikimedia's sites to use cookies? - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Enter  into the "Site" field, and tick  "Including third-party cookies on this site". Do the same for all Wikimedia domains, i.e. ,   etc. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel  21:29, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Rummskartoffel, ah! Is there no way to do it for all domains at once? That's what I was hoping for. :P - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:33, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is, no. <span style="font-weight:normal;background:linear-gradient(90deg,#e40303,#ff8c00,#ffed00,#008026,#004dff,#750787);color:transparent;background-clip:text;-webkit-background-clip:text;">Rummskartoffel 10:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Rummskartoffel :( Thank you anyway! - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * CentralAuth doesn't play nice with how browsers function these days. Probably nothing happened yesterday, it's just the first time you've bumped into the issue. Izno (talk) 17:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Izno, most likely. I don't log out pretty often so... Glad I could solve it though. - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Izno, most likely. I don't log out pretty often so... Glad I could solve it though. - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:37, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Article count going down?
I periodically track various Wikipedia statistics. I've just seen the following:


 * 2022-08-09: 6,562,221 articles
 * 2022-08-27: 6,544,978 articles

This is remarkable; article count typically goes relentlessly upward, with the occassional deletions being a drop in the ocean compared to article creations. So: is the article counter broken, or have ~18,000 articles been deleted recently, or is this something else? Does anyone know what's actually going on? &mdash; The Anome (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 72 * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 19:17, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Two list manipulation questions
Hi, not sure where to ask this, I'm hoping someone knowledgeable can point me in the right direction: Thanks for your help! Levivich 19:39, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) I want to compare two large lists of page links (lists of ~10k articles against the list of ~50k Vital Articles). When I make the lists on AWB (either in the regular list maker, or in the list comparer tool), it cuts off the list (at 5k, 10k, or 25k, depending on the tool and how I make the list). Is there a tool that will help me do this for large lists (~50k), or some existing method?
 * 2) I have lists of >10k bluelinks, and I'd like to separate links to redirects from links to disambiguation pages and links to articles. Is there a tool/method to do this?


 * Have you tried page pile? IDK if it will help. Izno (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Re first item: depending on what you want to do, Version control-oriented plain text diff tools might work for your task. For example, install Notepad++ and its "Compare" plugin from app's plugin manager or KDiff3. —⁠andrybak (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you Izno and Andrybak, that got me where I needed to go! I didn't know about PagePile, and that also reminded me about PetScan. PetScan will create the very large lists, and will follow redirects (or not) and there's a flag for tagging disambiguation pages, and it'll output it to either PagePile or some other format, and then I can use PP or Notepad++ to do the list comparisons, even with large lists. That's what I was looking for: thanks again!! Levivich 20:34, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Re second item: you could paste your list into PetScan (field "Manual list" in the "Other sources" tab) and try to intersect it with Category:All article disambiguation pages and Category:Main namespace redirects (PETSCAN might not like going deep into this category) correspondingly.
 * On Wikipedia itself, wikilinks to redirects produce tags with , wikilinks to disambigs have  . Wikilinks to articles don't have any special CSS classes added to them. JS or even CSS tricks could be used to selectively filter/display the portion of the list that you want:   —⁠andrybak (talk) 20:38, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unix CLI tools. Awk is easiest. -- Green  C  04:26, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Two "Speedy" drop-downs with CSDHelper
Hi all,

When I look at a page that's tagged for speedy deletion, I see

This is with the User:Chairboy/csdhelper.greasemonkey.js script.

Both drop-down menus are functional. Super-low priority, just odd.

(And as for the "kangaroo" emoji, uh, it looks like a snail poking its head out of a hole to me, but not much we can do about that here.)

User:Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 02:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * A recent software change (, this is report #4 of brokenness) has made it so if you are importing the same script multiple times, instead of cleaning up for you, it will run the script as many times as you import it. Depending on which skin you are using, you have a copy of this script in both your common.js and your vector.js/monobook.js. Remove the skin versions to correct it. Izno (talk) 05:11, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

coordinates on Vatican City
Can anyone figure out why geographical coordinates aren't displayed on Vatican City? The article contains an ordinary-looking parameter of

coordinates = {&zwj;{Coord|41|54|09|N|12|27|09|E|type:city|display=title,inline}}

in its infobox template. I notice that Infobox country does not list  as a parameter (although the example there does), which may be part of the problem. —scs (talk) 18:34, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Because capital is not specified. Whether that restriction makes any sense is something that should be discussed at the template's talk page.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 18:58, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it sounds like we ought to...
 * I just fixed this by moving the coords outside the infobox, as was the case with Singapore. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 19:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * ...exactly. Thanks. —scs (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Heading doubles on files
Many files are having heading doubles when created. Can someone identify why this is so it can be prevented and WikiCleanerBot doesn't have to correct all doublettes.Jonteemil (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem like that many by bot cleanup standards. This bot has fixed 407 in the last year. I guess there is an upload script or process which adds a "Summary" heading but some uploaders also do it manually. Does this really need a solution beyond a bot periodically removing the double? It's not like bots complain about workload, and file pages get almost no views. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:45, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Styling issue with table of contents and mathprint
I noticed a styling issue of the table of contents on Real closed field. The section name, containing the mathprint $\mathcal{T}_\text{rcf}$, was being displayed incorrectly as '"`UNIQ--postMath-00000012-QINU`"' in the table of contents. When I tried to input similar text into the sandbox, I got the same display. This seems to be a common issue with mathprint. If somebody could help with this, it would be much appreciated. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:81D5:6D64:11E:646B (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * MOS:SECTIONS says: "don't do that".
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This is T295091 from November 2021. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * After looking through the bug reports, it seems that this issue affects other types of parsed text too. Unfortunately, these bugs are quite difficult to fix, and as a result, this issue will not be resolved in the near-future. MOS:SECTIONS will have to stay at it is. By the way, do bugs of this type affect non-mathprint headers? 2601:647:5800:1A1F:81D5:6D64:11E:646B (talk) 22:54, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Start a discussion with ..
In the past, I could rollback an edit from a "new" user/IP (i.e. user/IP with redlinked talk page) and warn them by clicking on their redlinked talk page link. Now, this redlink leads me to an additional page saying "Start a discussion with XXX. Talk pages are where people discuss how to make content on Wikipedia the best that it can be. Start a new discussion to connect and collaborate with XXX. What you say here will be public for others to see."

This way I have to click twice, which slows me down.

Is there a simple way to leave a message on redlinked talk with one mouth click? If this is not trivial, where was it decided that redlinked pages can not be created right away, even by admins? Materialscientist (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * To clarify the technical part of the problem:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Triumph2016&action=edit works directly, but
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Triumph2016&action=edit&redlink=1 leads to a redirect. Materialscientist (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Materialscientist in Special:Preferences, under "Enable quick topic adding" try to change the setting to "open the wikitext editor". See if that solves your issue. — xaosflux  Talk 00:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Solved, thanks a lot. Materialscientist (talk) 00:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Module:Excerpt: No alt text and captions for images transcluded from infoboxes to another page
Hi, I posted a message at Module talk:Excerpt about an issue I've discovered with the handling of transclusion of images in infoboxes using this template-and-module. Transcribed below: reply on the module talk page. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 08:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 08:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * is the maintainer of that module and is usually pretty good about responding on the talk page. Pinging them just in case. – Novem Linguae (talk) 09:24, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I just replied there. Sophivorus (talk) 12:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Missing TOC without any magic word in use
I see that WP:Village pump (technical)/Archive 198 does not have TOC in Vector legacy skin. All revisions before Special:Diff/1097874722 had the TOC. All revisions since this revision doesn't. I don't see any obvious magic words added via this edit. So what went wrong? &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 15:32, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The  is in   per Special:ExpandTemplates. Izno (talk) 15:41, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * it is coming in via this line: . —  xaosflux  Talk 15:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed by adding . PrimeHunter (talk) 15:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you everyone. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 16:39, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Question: Is this the same with MonoBook skin? When I add Template:Main to article (example 2022 in Romania - with several Main; 2022 in Romania with only 1 Main) the TOC goes away. Adding the TOC magic word returns TOC back. JoeNMLC (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * MonoBook or main does not affect the TOC but here you added BD ToC. Custom TOC templates usually add  by default to avoid getting two TOC's. Some TOC templates have an option to not add   but BD ToC has no such option so you did right by manually adding  . PrimeHunter (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this info. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-35
<section begin="technews-2022-W35"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Recent changes
 * The Realtime Preview is available as a Beta Feature on wikis in Group 2. This feature was built in order to fulfill one of the Community Wishlist Survey proposals. Please note that when this Beta feature is enabled, it may cause conflicts with some wiki-specific Gadgets.

Problems
 * In recent months, there have been inaccurate numbers shown for various at Commons, Wikidata, and English Wikipedia. This has now been fixed.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis) and on  at 7:00 UTC (targeted wikis).

Future changes
 * The Wikimedia Foundation wants to improve how Wikimedia communities report harmful incidents by building the Private Incident Reporting System (PIRS) to make it easy and safe for users to make reports. You can leave comments on the talk page, by answering the questions provided. If you have ever faced a harmful situation that you wanted to report/reported, join a PIRS interview to share your experience. To sign up please email Madalina Ana.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W35"/>

23:02, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

External tools not working
External tools on talk pages not working.....wmcloud.org. down?

Find addition/removalFind edits by user (Alternate)Page statisticsPageviewsFix dead links Moxy - 14:53, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @Moxy are you still having this problem? What is happening when you try? —  xaosflux  Talk 14:59, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Still down this page stats. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 15:03, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Your link worked for me. What is exact error message you're getting when you visit that link? – Novem Linguae (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Still not working for me.....says "This site can’t be reached" Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 23:04, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Moxy: can you follow the instructions at https://wikitech-static.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reporting_a_connectivity_issue and file a private Phabricator task or send an email to the address on that page? Yours is the second report of this issue I've seen. Legoktm (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Search CRASH !
result was: '''upstream connect error or disconnect/reset before headers. reset reason: overflow''' .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 06:54, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @0mtwb9gd5wx you will need to provide a lot more information to get any help on this. Please provide step-by-step directions for what you are doing. —  xaosflux  Talk 12:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I did a search, I got a text result, not a result page. A one-time event. 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 03:53, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

www.youtube.com/watch: dateText
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpiRWKRn1tE has ,"dateText":{"simpleText":"Jun 1, 2022"}}},

using source code editor citation template please parse for :

  ....0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @0mtwb9gd5wx was this working previously and has broken (please provide a diff to where you used it with a different result previously)? If you are requesting a feature enhancement to RefToolbar you can post at Wikipedia talk:RefToolbar. In the meantime, you can always click on "Show/Hide extra fields" and fill in any other parts of your reference you would like. — xaosflux  Talk 12:35, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * feature enhancement to RefToolbar 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 03:49, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * is this Citoid ? .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 04:05, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

transclusion
Check this.

Morena Baccarin (transclusion) ‎ (links | edit) & Template:Wealthiest people in the United States ‎ (links | edit) both at Pages that link to "Morena Baccarin"

I know that transclusion is for templates; articles' title cannot be transclusion, it is just article title. Why is article Title at Pages that link to "'article Title'" and what (transclusion) denotes after article Title?

There is currently link for this page at template page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AWealthiest_people_in_the_United_States&type=revision&diff=1107322961&oldid=1070557923) and still same link among pages that link to and not in template namespace but main.

--5.43.86.137 (talk); 11:45, 29 August 2022 (UTC) [e]
 * All pages can be transcluded by including the namespace, or a colon in front for mainspace pages. Some highly used citation templates transclude the page itself to examine its code. It's true that the article transcludes itself. Lots of articles do. Transclusion in other articles is less common but does happen, usually to display a selected part of the article. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Articles began transcluding themselves when using CS1 citation templates in 2019; see Village pump (technical)/Archive 173 Graham 87 06:33, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Three of five Great Lakes missing on map
There is a route map at Interstate 80 that does not show Lake Huron, Lake Erie or Lake Ontario. Instead, it shows a gigantic non-existent land border between the U.S. and Canada. This problem has been reported since 2019. What can be done to fix it? Cullen328 (talk) 19:13, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's really weird; the higher-resolution map that opens when you click the map does not have that problem, so it looks like the current software and data work fine. Perhaps all that is needed is to re-render the map thumbnail? &mdash; The Anome (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have no idea how to even try that, . Cullen328 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've tried purging the article, which typically re-renders everything on the page, and it does not change anything; the map is still missing lakes. More perplexingly, when I experiment with hacking the URL of the embedded image in the page to generate novel image sizes, for example, like this: https://maps.wikimedia.org/img/osm-intl,a,a,a,365x483@2x.png?lang=en&domain=en.wikipedia.org&title=Interstate+80&groups=_282cfae208f7f8f41a530a00b3795d6c65bc261f, thus forcing it to render new images, the maps you get are still missing the three lakes. Yet the map generated by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80#/map/0 renders all five lakes correctly. If huge features like Great Lakes are omitted, who knows what other map features are being missed out? This is clearly a technical problem, and one for WMF engineering to investigate. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Seems an issue for zoom less than 5. Changing the window size, coordinates of the map centre or included oblects doesn't seem to matter. — <span style="font-family:Arial;background:#d6ffe6;border:solid 1px;border-radius:5px;box-shadow:darkcyan 0px 1px 1px;"> Jts1882 &#124; talk 19:48, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * See Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_194 from last December. The associated Phab ticket says the problem was fixed. I have no idea if the fix really didn't work or this is a new/different problem. <b style="color:#034503">MB</b> 21:26, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * It does seem to have been fixed, but has since unfixed itself. It looks likely that the underlying problem is phab:T218097. Can someone please inform the relevant people on the engineering team? &mdash; The Anome (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Posting in relevant phab tickets with a link to and summary of this discussion will likely generate emails to the relevant software engineers. Might be worth a try :) – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Don't fix this. I like this map better. Lol. Schierbecker (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is the simplified version 50% superior? Certes (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The missing lake is eerie. --  Green  C  04:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * some goof drew the borders of canada wrong. The good side of niagara falls is on the canadian side. pls fix right away. Schierbecker (talk) 05:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

There also appears to be a problem with rendering the lakes Vänern and Vättern in Sweden, and Lake Ladoga in Russia. Schierbecker (talk) 05:15, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this is a related problem, but there is some shenanigans going on with the 1994 treaty line between Israel/Palestine and Jordan. When you zoom in, parts of the border pop into and out of existence. Also many of the oases around the Dead Sea (like Ein Gedi) do the same thing. Schierbecker (talk) 05:54, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

The OSM dataset is colossal, about 1600 Gb as uncompressed XML, and it's quite hard to manage such datasets. Load times can be of the order of weeks, processes are interrupted and systems go down while it's happening, data errors are pretty much inevitable on that much data, and errors are hard to find. Fortunately, I have some experience in doing things like this. Assuming for the moment that the error rate is low, might I suggest something like the following strategy?


 * Divide the content in the input dataset into, say, 1,000,000 batches of perhaps 1.6 Mbytes each on average. Serialise the batches in a deterministic format, and generate hashes from these. Store the (say, SHA-256) hashes, and the source batch identifiers, in a text file. For an extra win, perhaps make the hashes themselves the batch identifiers. You will end up with a text file perhaps 100 Mbytes long.
 * Once data has been loaded into the database/datastore, regenerate the deterministically-serialised data for each batch from the stored data in the DB. Put these hashes in a table. It's important that these values are regenerated on read, not just stored on load, so that they actually catch errors.
 * Then it's "just" a matter of comparing the two lists of hashes, (re-)uploading batches for which the corresponding hashes are not stored in the database, and deleting any batches whose hash is not in the source list.
 * Repeat indefinitely, and await eventual consistency. When everything matches, you can then take a snapshot, and move it to production.

With a bit of extra machinery (datestamps, validity flags, atomic file renaming), these processes can run asynchronously, and forever. There's actually no need to copy or store the input content anywhere but in the database, as you can generate the hashes at load/scan time and make this a streaming process. And there's obviously lots of room for making this scheme embarassingly parallel, using tiered storage, and so on. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Has anyone considered that maybe those lakes just aren't that great? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, they're certainly not if they just evaporate as soon as you look at them. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

could you please bring this to the attention of the engineering team? This is a long-standing problem which clearly hasn't been fixed properly, and it's been reported multiple times with no resolution. If the engineering team hasn't got sufficient resources to fix this in a timely way, perhaps this is a funding issue, not an engineering one, and needs attention at a higher management level? &mdash; The Anome (talk) 12:03, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Undo/Diffs for Mobile - feedback requested
Hi all,

Just reposting on behalf of the team that's working on improving Diffs for mobile, including specifically adding in an undo button.

This had dozens of supports on the 2019 and 2021 Community Wishlists.

Anyone who uses the mobile web interface (or might, if it were easier), please take a look at the open questions and wireframes and give feedback.

If there are other fora where this might be relevant, please feel free to crosspost. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

flash of unstyled content on watchlist
On my watch list I have a short-term watch (1 month). When I F5 refresh that page, the clock-face icon briefly displays larger and (apparently) darker than its normal size/color. Is this only me? win10 chrome current version.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm briefly seeing it, along with it for IP Information icons. — xaosflux  Talk 17:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

MathJax Gadget
Is it possible to add the following code to the gadgets?

helohe (talk)  19:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Is this a user script? Link to user script? How many users? Usually gadgets start off as a user script, get hundreds of users, then get converted to a gadget. Gadgets are basically popular user scripts that have been made more easily available. – Novem Linguae (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Regardless, we would not make a script which loads from an external CDN into a gadget. It would first need to be hosted at one of the WMF CDNs. Izno (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Rater stopped working on my end
The Rater script (User:Evad37/rater) has randomly stopped working for me a couple days ago. When I click alt + 5, nothing comes up or happens. I tried removing and adding it again, but nothing changed. Rater is the only script I have in my common.js file. Nothing in my setup has changed, and I do not remember anything that could have broke it on my end. I am using the default skin on brave browser version 1.42.97. Anything I can do to try to get Rater to work again? SamBroGaming (talk) 02:37, 31 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Rater works for me. Specific page or all pages? Any WP:CONSOLEERRORS? – Novem Linguae (talk) 07:45, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @SamBroGaming "Rater" is a personal userscript, you may want to ask over at User talk:Evad37/rater.js for more tips. — xaosflux  Talk 13:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Novem Linguae @Xaosflux Thank you for the useful advice, but apparently, as soon as I test it being broken, it magically starts working. Thanks again, but apparently it fixed itself. SamBroGaming (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Nearby units
Special:Nearby shows results in m/km. It should either show both m/km and ft/mi, or the appropriate unit for the location. For anybody without location services, you can test with Special:Nearby. 2600:1700:61A0:5960:7DA7:A96B:9AA1:812 (talk) 19:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * T53584 is (re)open on this, but it hasn't had anyone work on it in a very long time. Volunteer developers are welcome to take up the challenge. — xaosflux  Talk 20:28, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Nah, it is a secret plot to get Americans to finally accept metric ! :) —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking that up and reopening it. It seems that there's reluctance to making an option/preference. But why not just display both units, as is done in virtually every Wikipedia article with any kind of measurements? That would be much easier. 2600:1700:61A0:5960:7DA7:A96B:9AA1:812 (talk) 08:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There isn't reluctance, there is just no one available to implement and review it. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Templates for crime in countries by year/decade
For Zimbabwe the "year" template works as expected with Category:2007 crimes in Zimbabwe generating the parent Category:Crimes in Zimbabwe by year. But the “decade” template Category:2000s crimes in Zimbabwe generates the parent Category:Crime in Zimbabwe by decade.rather than “Crimes in ….," although this was changed after discussion recently. Can someone correct this please? (I have no experience in template editing) Hugo999 (talk) 12:31, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Neither Category:Crime in Zimbabwe by decade‎ nor Category:Crimes in Zimbabwe by decade exist. Do you mean you want YYY0s crimes in countryname category header to add the latter non-existing category instead of the former? The template (via code in YYY0s crimes in countryname category header/inner core looks for a "Crimes" category and adds it if it exists. Otherwise it adds a "Crime" category whether or not it exists. An ifexist check causes a WhatLinksHere entry and Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:Crimes in Zimbabwe by decade confirms the check was made in Category:2000s crimes in Zimbabwe. It's non-controversial to add an existing category but if you want the default non-existing category to be changed then please link the discussion you mention. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:16, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Just create Category:Crimes in Zimbabwe by decade.<span id="Qwerfjkl:1662038370431:WikipediaFTTCLNVillage_pump_(technical)" class="FTTCmt"> — Qwerfjkl  talk  13:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Tag: use of deprecated (unreliable) source
This WorldNetDaily edit causes Tag: use of deprecated (unreliable) source:
 * Google Search results for wnd.com redirect to a Malware Warning page with: "Warning — visiting this web site may harm your computer!".

0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 13:39, 1 September 2022 (UTC)


 * @0mtwb9gd5wx yes, you tripped Special:AbuseFilter/869; it tags any page that uses certain external links, including "wnd". It is possible there are appropriate uses, which is why it only tags for review and doesn't stop the edit. This is the expected behavior. — xaosflux  Talk 14:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * WorldNetDaily has strange unreadable reference organization, needing attention beyond my skillset. Maybe some categories and hatnotes? 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 04:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Organisation controlled laptop - scripts no longer working
Hey, I've just got a new laptop, using google chrome. It's controlled by my employer, so, for example, I can't share location, or install extensions). My wikipedia scripts (auto ed, Move, page size, refill 2) are not visible/not working. I've checked site permissions (chrome::/settings/content/siteDetails) on my desktop pc, which where scripts are working, but they don't differ from those on my laptop. Anyone any idea on a setting somewhere I could look at? Bogger (talk) 08:41, 2 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Sounds like JavaScript is disabled in your browser. Maybe check browser addons and see if there's an extension that is turning them off, then try reconfiguring or disabling the extension. Also visit https://www.whatismybrowser.com/detect/is-javascript-enabled to confirm my JavaScript theory. – Novem Linguae (talk) 08:46, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Template:Infobox dog breed
I'm not clever at template editing. Today I added a parameter to Template:Infobox dog breed as best I could, imitating the syntax in use there. It works – or at least it's working at Villano de Las Encartaciones – but when I enter edit mode in that page I get an error, "Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox dog breed with unknown parameter 'distribution'". If the parameter is unknown, why does it work? (and if it works, how can it be unknown?) I'm quite sure this is my mistake, but I can't find it (I've purged caches and so on, no luck). Any light, anyone? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I have edited the template to add  to the list of known parameters when it invokes Module:Check for unknown parameters. DanCherek (talk) 19:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, I wouldn't have thought of that in a thousand years! But – for once – it does seem that this was not my fault, and that there's an error there that should probably be fixed (or at least documented). Thanks again, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:08, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We have no method to automatically detect which parameters are known to a template. They must be manually added to  in the template code. Well, we have Template:Parameters but it would have to be run each time a parameter is added and if you know that much, you can just add the parameter to the known parameters right away. Maybe we could get a bot to do some of it but it's complicated if the template calls a module. Maybe we should have a template with explanatory text to display in the documentation of templates which check for unknown parameters. It's often difficult to find now, for example from Template:Infobox dog breed: Click Category:Pages using infobox dog breed with unknown parameters and then Module:Check for unknown parameters. The preview warning is for users of the template and assumes the template is coded correctly. It would probably confuse more than help if the warning tried to explain that it might just be the template which incorrectly thinks the parameter is unknown. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have created Checks for unknown parameters and added it in a new section Template:Infobox dog breed. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:00, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Subscribe (but I don't want to, and it's annoying)
I just noticed that on talk pages beside the section heading there is a place to click to subscribe. It's distracting when I'm looking to edit a section. I don't see it mentioned above.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  23:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Go to Special:Preferences and uncheck "Enable topic subscription".   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    00:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, I also find it annoying to have it there all the time, but there are a few occasions when I do want to subscribe. Your can add the following to your common.js:


 * A link labeled "Section subscribe" will appear in your toolbox for all pages in the Wikipedia: or any talk space. Click on it and the page will reload with the section subscribe links enabled.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    00:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That didn't seem to work.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  19:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In what way doesn't it work? Does the "Section subscribe" link appear? (Which skin are you using? The link should be in the menu named "tools", "Tools", "More", or "Wiki tools", at the left or top of the page, depending on your skin.) If you get the link, what is the URL it links to, and what happens when you click on it?   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    00:31, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I did something wrong when I was replying. I was referring to what I add to my common.js.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  15:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think one or both of us is misunderstanding what the other is saying. I still don't know what exactly is not working for . Are the subscribe links still appearing for you in every talk page section? If you just want to disable them, all you need to do is disable it in Preferences and you don't need to add anything anywhere. If that's what's not working, maybe you didn't Save after unchecking the box. Go back to your preferences and verify that it's still unchecked. Only if you want to be able to subscribe "on demand" do you need to add the above code. I replaced the contents of my common.js with yours, and it worked perfectly for me.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    18:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I tried the other option with my preferences and that worked.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  21:22, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. I see that you removed the code from your common.js, but your edit summary ("Didn't do what it said it would do") is incorrect. It does exactly what I said it would do. It just doesn't do what you misunderstood it was supposed to do.   M ANdARAX       XAЯAbИA M    21:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
 * You said it would only appear in the toolbox but until I changed the preferences, it didn't go away. But I did misunderstand and thought I was adding code that would do that unless I used the toolbox.— Vchimpanzee  •  talk  •  contributions  •  15:52, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Database dump is overdue
The full dump of en.wp articles is usually available by ~10.00 UTC on the day after the WP:Database download begins. So I expected that on https://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiki/20220901/, the file  would have been available over 5 hours ago.

Does anyone know what has happened?

Is the process stalled? Did it have a late start? Has some big extra task been added to the bot/tool which does the processing? Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:46, 2 September 2022 (UTC)


 * @BrownHairedGirl: the current status is available on the main dumps page, which says it's in progress, but it's not super easy to see if it's stalled. I would suggest asking on the xmldatadumps-l mailing list. That's also where changes to the dump process are announced (nothing except for the new Russian mirror). Legoktm (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @Legoktm. I'm wary signing up to yet another channel, but if it's still incomplete in the morning, I will go ask there.
 * For the last six months or so, the timing has been consistent, so I schedule my day around a download in the morning, and after uncompression I have time to do the first scans and start a few big batch jobs before bedtime. But I guess it will all come right in the end.   Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 15:21, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Resolved: The dump became available about ten minutes ago, and is downloading nicely. -- Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 15:58, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Can "Your edit was published" be disabled?
When a page is saved, a green text notification appears in the top of the window right saying "Your edit was published". I can see how this is helpful for newbies, but I find it annoying. It tells me nothing I don't already know, and sometimes I can just ignore it ... but many other times it is disruptive.

My workflow often involves running a script after an edit, and those script are on a drop-down at the top right of the screen. When the menu drops down it is partially obscured by the notice, so I have to wait a few seconds for the notice to disappear.

When I am working fast on a long series of edits, this gets very annoying. Is there any way to disable these "Your edit was published" notifications? Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:58, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * you can put this code:


 * In your Special:MyPage/common.css file. It should hide the display of that popup. (It may also hide some other post-edit things). — xaosflux  Talk 17:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, @Xaosflux. That does it nicely.   Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 17:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

IP somehow getting around TPA disabling
Hello! Earlier today, DatGuy disabled the TPA of the IP 208.108.121.21. Then, just a few minutes ago, the IP somehow adds a message to their talk page, even though they shouldn't be able to due to the TPA being disabled (and yes I made sure it wasn't a different IP on the same range). Anyone know how the hell they did this? ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 18:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks like DatGuy didn't actually disable talk page access. Forgot to check a box, I imagine. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Blaze Wolf this block, Special:Redirect/logid/135959072, does not have TPA set. Are you referring to a different block? — xaosflux  Talk 18:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think per what FLoquenbeam they forgot to actually disabled TPA. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 18:28, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

"Insert links" - Dabsolver
There is a new(ish) tool called "insert links" that has started appearing whenever I enter a wiki link to a disambiguation page (similar to WP:Dabsolver), but built in. I've found this useful, but not as useful as it could be. Is it in finished state or still under development? Where does one find the specifications and discussion of this tool? Furius (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * See Community Wishlist Survey 2021/Warn when linking to disambiguation pages and T285508. I don't think it's still being worked on. Nardog (talk) 21:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Labs down
https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ doesn't load, and nor does https://wmflabs.org/

Both sites respond to pings, but HTTP requests time out.

I have tried from multiple browsers on multiple devices, and used my VPN to try via Germany and via the USA.

Yet https://www.wikimediastatus.net/ says "All Systems Operational".

So another work schedule is thrown out. Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:16, 3 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Probably related, but I don't know the correct term for the info read-out at the top of any page that tells you when it was created and by whom. Or the info on your own user space that tells you how many people are watching your page. Those seem to be down, with just a teeny little moving dot that looks like it's trying to load the info. — Maile  (talk) 10:31, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Maile66, that's the XTools gadget. MediaWiki:Gadget-XTools-ArticleInfo. It's a little gadget that gets data from the website https://xtools.wmflabs.org/. Hope that helps :) – Novem Linguae (talk) 11:49, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "All Systems Operational" just a note, wmflabs (repeat labs....) is not generally considered to be part of production. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @TheDJ, "labs" is the name which WMF uses for the site that hosts the tools which editors rely on to build and maintain Wikipedia.
 * Its predecessor was a WikiGermany-hosted site called "toolserver", a name which better described the actual purpose of the site. I had not considered before that the name of wmflabs would indicate a downgraded priority for it, but you may be right that the "labs" name reflects a low priority for tools.   Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 10:56, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I mean technically it's all production, but wmcloud and wmflabs have a considerable different architecture that is much less redundant, and FAR fewer people assigned to it, and has very much lower SLA guarantees than wikipedia.org, and it's sister wiki projects do. So while wikipedia going down creates immediate alarmbells everywhere, cloud going down will require a bit more time. Also. Its fixed now. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:04, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, @TheDJ, it's now fixed. Phew.
 * But the low priority for availability of tools is further evidence of WMF having a poor attitude towards the volunteers who actually maintain the site's content.  WMF is no longer poor, and the resources needed to keep the tools at a high SLA would be a trivial drop in WMF's budget.   Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 11:31, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @BrownHairedGirl: While I agree with your general point (less resources are allocated for tools infrastructure than they merit/deserve), that wasn't the issue in this case. A server went down, which happens from time to time, but something went wrong with the monitoring so the staff/volunteers who do maintain it weren't alerted to it being down. Once TheDJ reported it, I escalated it and Taavi rebooted the server. Legoktm (talk) 12:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation, @Legoktm ... but it still seems to me to be problematic that the monitoring processes are not more robust. That looks from here like a sign of low prioritisation.  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 12:18, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, airplanes crash out of the sky regularly as well. Also not supposed to happen and very robust systems. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:03, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, a tiny proportion of air flights involve a plane falling out of the sky. The fatal crash ratio was calculated in 207 by the US's NTSB as 1.19 fatalities for every 100,000 hours of flight.
 * By contrast, https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ is unavailable or non-functional for several hours on most days.
 * So not a great comparison.  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 14:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * While petscan (developed and run by a volunteer) might be down several times a day, Wmcloud and toolforge themselves are considerably more stable than that. My point was, everything has stability that is imperfect yet relative to its importance and cost. Should this monitoring be improved ? Yes. But was this incident unacceptable ? I really don’t think so. Honestly I’m more concerned about the fact that we run all of wmcloud and toolforge in a single datacenter. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:54, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * No, we've been trying to not call things 'labs' since 2017 due to the 'labs labs labs' problem it created. Taavi (talk!) 11:35, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * But it's still https://petscan.wmf labs .org/  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 11:41, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The wmflabs.org domain is deprecated in favor of the new wmcloud.org domain. The new domain also explicitly drops the "F" so it's just "Wikimedia Cloud", something for the community and movement as a whole, rather than just "WMF".
 * I can't find the announcement offhand, but each project maintainer needs to migrate their project over to the new domain. The Petscan maintainer hasn't yet. Legoktm (talk) 12:11, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * here's the announcement in question. I was only able to find it because of an extended essay about Wikipedia written by a good friend of mine. Graham 87 17:01, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Archive 199 has some source code error which munged half the archived discussions
The most recent Archive 199 as some source code error so that starting half way down the page all the discussions appear as red source code. -- M.boli (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * fixed by Trappist the monk. Graham 87 06:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Searching for a string *outside* a reference?
Any suggestions for searching for a string only outside of a reference?Naraht (talk) 20:51, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * There is a 'Find & Replace' regular expression function available in AWB in; Options → Normal settings → Ignore templates, refs....(A tickbox selection) Neils51 (talk)

Convert column of US state abbreviations to full names
This column of state abbreviations below was copied from some newly updated tables here: Scroll down to the state by state tables. I want to quickly convert the column below to full names. Then I will paste the full-name column back into the tables.
 * United States drug overdose death rates and totals over time.
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox179.

--Timeshifter (talk) 07:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * In the time I could write a script, I can probably just type this out.


 * Hope that helps. – Novem Linguae (talk) 08:15, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

- It helps for this table, but I see this problem regularly, and sorting the state names correctly is not always easy. LibreOffice Calc puts the pivot table in alphabetical order of those 2-letter abbreviations. But that is not the same order as the full state names. So the previous time I updated the tables I had to manually move the rows around in the Visual Editor. Then I could paste just the data (all at once) next to the column of full state names. All of this is time consuming. It is easy to make mistakes and confuse which state names go with which abbreviation. So a double check is necessary, or random check by row number comparison.

So a script would save a lot of time because it would not make mistakes, and no row rearranging is necessary. Sort column in the right-most table below to put in alphabetical order. Note the problem it causes. Scroll down the table to see the changes it makes.
 * List of states and territories of the United States
 * Template:Static row numbers

If you write a script I will link to it from Help:Table. I have done a lot of editing there. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Sounds like you want someone to write a user script that detects this kind of table and gives you a button to press to convert it? Might want to repost this at WP:US/R. – Novem Linguae (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * - Yes. Or just a separated column. That might be an easier script. Thanks for the link. Can you create a script for this? --Timeshifter (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Probably not this month. It's busy season at my day job. – Novem Linguae (talk) 20:07, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * - OK. I made a request at WP:US/R (Wikipedia:User scripts/Requests). --Timeshifter (talk) 21:02, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Tech News: 2022-36
<section begin="technews-2022-W36"/> Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.

Changes later this week
 * Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from . It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from . It will be on all wikis from (calendar).
 * Octicons-sync.svg Some wikis will be in read-only for a few minutes because of a switch of their main database. It will be performed on at 07:00 UTC (targeted wikis) and on  at 7:00 UTC (targeted wikis).
 * Octicons-tools.svg On Special pages that only have one tab, the tab-bar's row will be hidden in the Vector-2022 skin to save space. The row will still show if Gadgets use it. Gadgets that currently append directly to the CSS id of <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> should be updated to use the <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr"> function instead. Gadgets that style this id should consider also targeting <bdi lang="zxx" dir="ltr">, the new id for this row. Examples are available.

Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe. <section end="technews-2022-W36"/>

23:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Regarding the last item, maybe I am the only one who command-clicks to duplicate a page in a new tab (e.g. to compare a page that I am actively fixing, or have sorted, to the page as it is currently rendered). Quick and easy. Removing this tab will break this workflow. If I am the only one who does this, then I'll find a workaround (like continuing to use legacy Vector for a variety of reasons). If you have a use case that this change would break, the relevant phab ticket appears to be . – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I do that a lot, also at special pages where your example doesn't apply, e.g. at Special:Search to compare searches, or Special:ExpandTemplates to compare the output of similar code. https://xkcd.com/1172/ ("Workflow"). PrimeHunter (talk) 00:25, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Ctrl+L and then Alt+Enter duplicates the current tab on many web browsers. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:50, 6 September 2022 (UTC)