Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 61

Font size question
I'm a rank amateur when it come to CSS and HTML, so bear with me here (and please put answers in terms a 4 year old 45 year old can understand. *grin*) And if there's a better place to ask, feel free to tell me where to go and how to get there.

While editing yesterday, all of a sudden the fonts on Wikipedia started showing up microscopically small (to my four eyes, anyways) in Firefox on Windows XP. Google Chrome is not affected, non-wiki pages are not affected, Firefox on my Mac is not affected. Since I didn't change any settings, I ran anti-virus and spyware detectors and the system came up clean. Going into Tools -> Options -> Fonts and Colors shows the default size is 16 point. If I change it to 17 point, there's a huge increase in my Wiki article font size (and a small increase in other pages), but my edit box font size (where it really matters) stays small.

Help! What's the next logical thing to check?-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  16:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Try . Den dodge T\C 17:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You are a genius. Well, it was that did the trick, but at least it gave me a clue. Many thanks!-- Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  17:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The original cause may have been Ctrl-scroll wheel, which has the same behavior. Flatscan (talk) 05:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If that isn't good enough you can try something like this. Yeah, my visual acuity isn't so good either. — CharlotteWebb 12:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Idea: turn off search-engine archiving of new pages
When I come across a page that looks like it might be a copyvio, from the end of the new-page log, if it's more than a couple of hours old, it's been indexed, and searching a particular phrase from it will bring up Wikipedia in the search-results, which makes life a bit awkward, as well as indexing bits of Wikipedia that are soon to be deleted. Would it be possible to prevent pages being indexed until they are, say, 48 hours old? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 21:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem to be talking about external search engines. The only way we can control what they do and do not index is to (automagically?) mark individual new pages as not to be indexed, and then remove that marker, on a per page basis, again automagically.  (There is no way to tell a search spider to wait for a predetermined amount of time.) Somehow I don't think the developers would be interested in doing so.


 * More to the point, new pages often are about breaking news and very current events; not having these in external search engine indexes would be very problematical. On the other side, my guess is that most copyviolation new articles get hardly any traffic at all, and so don't cause a lot of awkwardness. And if they do - well, we can point out that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and sometimes people don't follow the rules when doing so.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 22:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This also brings about another question: how much time elapses between when an article is created on Wikipedia and when the spiders find it? EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 22:20, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The rate of new-article indexing can vary significantly - I've seen some new articles indexed in under an hour, though. Zetawoof(&zeta;) 04:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the core of TreasuryTag’s idea – that it would be helpful if new pages with copyvio’s did not get indexed right away. John makes a good point that a time delay of 48 hours may be far too long in the case of breaking issues. However, isn’t there a relatively simple solution – what if all newly created articles are created using a template that automatically places a noindex marker. The marker could not be removed by the creator, but could be removed by an administrator, or maybe simply an established user. In the case of breaking news, it shouldn’t be hard someone to make a quick review to ensure a decent likelihood that the page is not in violation, and remove the indexblock. A quick review might not catch everything, but my guess is that it would catch a material portion of offending articles, and would reduce the number of articles showing up in a search, either with a copy violation, or now disappeared, because the violation has been caught and the page removed.Sphilbrick (talk) 13:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "New pages often are about breaking news and very current events; not having these in external search engine indexes would be very problematical". How is this a problem?. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Suppose, for example, that Wikipedia has a great (new) article on the swine flu outbreak, but it's not indexed by Google until 48 hours after it's created, so it doesn't show up in search results for the first couple of days of being in the news, so potential readers end up going elsewhere, to inferior pages. How is that not a problem?


 * As for adding and deleting noindex markers, in a perfect world, where Wikipedia had an infinite number of experienced editors, sure, why not? In the world we're in, however, anything that adds more work, not to mention complexity, needs to be measured against the expected benefits. In this case, I really think that external search engine indexing of copyright violations isn't that big an issue, while reviewing and deleting noindex markers for several thousand new articles per day is a big deal: This is more than 1% of the current daily edits, and we already have enough problems with complexity (for those who doubt this, see, for example, the Editor's index to Wikipedia).  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 14:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would hope that anyone looking for information on swine flu (or any other medical topic) would go somewhere other than Wikipedia, like the WHO site, for example. At its very best, WP is an encyclopedia after all. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I was assuming (rightly or wrongly) that it was possible to automatically do something, perhaps with the robots.txt file, or the devs, or whatever, to no-index pages for a certain amount of time. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 14:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if it is possible to do it automatically, no-indexing isn't like an on-off switch. Just because we de-noindex a page doesn't mean it will quickly be picked up by search engines. Mr.Z-man 15:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if they get picked up quickly (as in, within 90 minutes, say) when newly-created, presumably an equivalent effect would apply if they were noindexed. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 15:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

John makes a good point about the volume of new articles. let me modify my suggestion to reflect that concern. First, let’s guess at some numbers to put the issue in perspective – if someone has access to better numbers, that would improve the discussion.

The English Wikipedia is growing about 1500 articles per day net. By net, I mean that more than 1500 articles are created, but a fair number are eliminated for various reasons, including copyvio. Let’s guess that the gross is 2000 a day, with 500 a day deleted for various reasons. I won’t be surprised is the gross and deleted numbers are higher, but that just strengthens my point.

How many new articles are created by established editors versus brand-new editors? I bet someone here has a plausible guess. It seems likely that a considerable portion of the new articles that get quickly deleted are created by new editors, while a substantial portion of the articles created by established editors survive. If this is true, then I suggest: The article creation template should add noindex if the creator is not an established editor.

This would reduce the number of articles with copyvio making it into the index by a substantial margin, while the number of false positives - an article of timely importance, without a copyvio, but written by someone who is not established – would be minimal. Sphilbrick (talk) 13:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Better in some ways (less work), worse in others (more complex). I still think this is a solution that is (mostly) in search of a problem.  In any case, I suggest that you start a new post at WP:VPPR, where this should have been located in the first place (as I should have pointed out earlier).  I also suggest that you leave out all the to-and-fro of the idea development, and just post a description of what your proposal is now.   Plus a note at the top pointing to this discussion, for those interested in the genesis of the current proposal.  You're likely to get comments there from other editors who don't read this page. -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 14:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * One final thought before the idea moves across... what about automatic no-indexing of unpatrolled pages? Once a page is marked patrolled, we can assume that it's been vetted for copyvio etc. That would presumably be viable to implement? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 14:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree this belongs in WP:VPPR. I'll do a little homework, and write something up this weekend.Sphilbrick (talk) 16:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no "article creation template"... Mr.Z-man 14:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is - New article template, but it isn't automatically invoked so editing that template doesn't help. I was using the term loosely (I know, bad idea) I meant that whatever one does to create a new page should also add a notice in some cases - like I said above, I'll think about how to put together a cogent proposal.Sphilbrick (talk) 16:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Idea inspired by Idea: block external search engine indexing of articles lacking references
This would be one way of increasing the overall quality of Wikipedia articles returned in external search results, by returning articles that at least had fractional support from reliable sources. There are complications, of course &mdash; one being "what should be done with redirects?" I am not suggesting that articles lacking citation support are unworthy of remaining in Wikipedia; many stub articles lack sources and part of their evolution out of the primordial soup of stubdom is accretion of citations. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * We could include NOINDEX in unreferenced to prevent future indexing, but it will not remove already indexed pages. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 01:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * is disabled by the software in the mainspace, so adding it to the template will have no effect.  MBisanz  talk 13:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That's interesting as a thought experiment, but I don't think it's possible in practice. It's possible to have a well-referenced article without a single tag in it, if the page creator chose some other format for their references. Likewise, adequate sourcing might be in a bibliography, a list of external links, or interpolated in the text - something like "According to Doe's book, 'Kilroy Was Here', blah blah blah" is acceptable sourcing (that needs improvement). I'm not dismissing the basic concern here, I just don't think there's any way to accurately check sourcing automatically. I do think Gadget850's approach deserves a look, though. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we enable FlaggedRevs and set the software to add the requisite "noindex" bits to any url which would display content other than a flagged rev. — CharlotteWebb 12:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone access this page User:He!ko/Templates
For some reason Wikipedia refuses to display it. I want to comment away the categories that are in the page. Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 15:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I can get there, eventually. It's 262kB of solid templates. Happy‑melon 15:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at the generated HTML, some templates at the end are omitted because the post-expand include size maxed out, see the report:


 * So the page isn't even complete. If you want to edit it (and can't get to it via the normal method), you might want to try using the API. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 03:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Or you can use this link to edit the page directly. Graham 87 03:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * But that involves downloading the content. The API function doesn't require downloading the content at all. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 03:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you uncheck the "Show preview on first edit" option, you don't have to download the content (it just loads in the edit field, which isn't much). EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 16:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, 'only' a quarter of a megabyte... :D Happy‑melon 16:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * /me hugs his fast internet connection EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 18:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Question about timestamps
As part of doing some homework for a proposal, I looked at the list of new pages, went to more or less at random, created 12 minutes before I looked (roughly 17:00 UTC).

The article is Joanne Altshul (now deleted.)

The creation time in the New page log, 16:48, 21 May 2009, matched the time on the page history.

I went to Google, not expecting to find the page, but did:

Google

The Google page URL line reads: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Altshul - 19 hours ago

I assumed this meant that Google indexed the page 19 hours ago.

Color me perplexed.

Am I interpreting the “19 hours ago” entry wrong? Am I misunderstanding when the page was actually created? I assume the new page listing is live, or very close. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sphilbrick (talk • contribs) 17:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It was deleted yesterday as well. Probably Google had an index of the previous version. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 21:32, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Right - the article was deleted on May 20 at 22:33, then re-created, then deleted again on May 21 at 17:01. -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 17:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

File:GTA - Box Front.jpg not showing file links
File:GTA - Box Front.jpg is a fair use cover scan used in the infobox of Grand Theft Auto (video game). It is currently in use, and has been for a long while, some minor vandal removals aside. Yet I received a notifying me that it had been tagged as an orphan.

I've checked the image, and checked the parent article to confirm that it was in use. Not only was it in use, it was also in use when it got tagged. But if you look at the file links to File:GTA - Box Front.jpg, it seems to think it is an orphan - this is not the case. I've checked the job length queue, and it's tiny, so that's not the issue. What is? This could be a bug, but I can't be bothered to signup to bugzilla right now - if this is the case, could someone else do it for me? - hahnch e n 14:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * After a null edit of the article, it is listed at the bottom of the image page: File:GTA - Box Front.jpg. — CharlotteWebb 15:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Creating a PDF - Errors
On multiple occasions when I've attempted to use Acrobat to view and print a generated PDF of an article - In each case viewing worked and printing failed. When I've subsequently used pdf2ps to create a printable PS file I get the following error message: **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)  **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)   **** Warning: File has imbalanced q/Q operators (too many q's)

**** This file had errors that were repaired or ignored. **** The file was produced by: **** >>>> ReportLab http://www.reportlab.com <<<< **** Please notify the author of the software that produced this **** file that it does not conform to Adobe's published PDF **** specification. BTW: I was trying to print/convert the PDF for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Szilard

Regards, Lyle —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lbickley (talk • contribs) 14:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you tried creating it with the 'PDF version' in the left toolbar? ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 17:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Template question
This project page is a list of errors, including plenty of spelling mistakes, discovered in a major online database. Typically when someon discovers a spelling error and lists it here, they will reproduce the mistaken spelling with a note about the proper spelling — for example, one entry reads:"Old Irontown (Iron County) is listed 'About 22 miles west of Ceder City'; proper spelling is Cedar City."I don't think that anyone has ever tried to "correct" the misspellings on this page itself, such as by changing "Ceder" to "Cedar" in the above instance, but is there some sort of template that could be put on the page to warn proofreaders not to correct spelling on this page? I'm envisioning something that would appear at the top of the page when you try to edit it, like the notices that appear at the top of all disambiguation pages. Nyttend (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * [sic] or you could use a per-page edit notice. Really depends on whether this is for the benefit of readers or editors. Seems like it would be both. — CharlotteWebb 16:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, this page isn't for readers; when we discover an error, we log it here to report it to the central database. Thanks!  Nyttend (talk) 20:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Have automatic edit summaries changed lately?
Recently, I do believe I've been seeing edit summaries like "blanking text" and "repeating characters", and indeed the edits usually turn out to be vandalism. It seems unlikely that the vandals would take the time to describe what they're doing, whereas it's more likely that there's a little extra magic in the software now.

So am I just imagining this or has something changed recently? And if the latter, where might I read up on it? Franamax (talk) 20:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe it's a feature of the WP:AbuseFilter. Den dodge T\C 20:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, placing WP:Tags. Amalthea  20:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahh, thank you both, I'd suspected as much. It's just Werdna organizing the servers to form a union and put the rest of us out of work. :) Which I must say has been working brilliantly so far, from the perspective of a watchlist-watcher! Franamax (talk) 23:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Content Gone
Relocated from talk page It appears my user page {now remade} and my history of contributions has disappeared. -- Nantucketnoon (talk) 09:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you User:NantucketNoon (with the capital N for Noon)? Tra (Talk) 10:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit attribution wrong
I just noticed at edit that was supposedly made be me. This must be a database glitch; I did not make this edit. Does this happen often? Eeekster (talk) 22:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The two edits from your account on that page were only 1 second apart. What happened is that you submitted the edit twice, for some reason (doubleclick on the "Save page" button?), and due to the magic of the SD notification templates, the second time you submitted it it expanded to a version without the automatic welcome notice (since the page already existed). So I assume it's a glitch on your end. Funnily enough, when you added this section just now, another thread. :)  Amalthea  22:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

How can a custom edit notice be inserted?
I would like to know how I can insert an embedded custom edit notice (not just a comment) visible to anyone who edits my talkpage (or even my userpage). Any advice as to how this can be done is appreciated. Thanks. Dr.K. logos 04:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:EDITNOTICE. Amalthea  04:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much Amalthea. That seems simple enough. Dr.K. logos 04:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Your cache administrator is nobody
Henry Trendley Dean and History of water fluoridation recently illustrated empty images instead of the reduced versions of File:H-Trendley-Dean.jpeg that they were supposed to display. For example, when I visited the former page, it contained a URL to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/H-Trendley-Dean.jpeg/200px-H-Trendley-Dean.jpeg but when my browser tried to retrieve that URL, it reported:

While I was typing up this message, things started to work again, but I thought I'd report it anyway, as the glitch lasted for what seemed like several minutes. Perhaps, at least, the diagnostic should be changed to a more useful form? Saying "nobody" is not that helpful here. Eubulides (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've got no comment on the usefulness of showing these sorts of error messages to readers who can't do anything about it. However, the server administrators, who can do something about it, would understand exactly what "nobody" means here. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe nobody is the default account that squid/apache is ran on with certain locations pointing to the /dev/null folders incase anyone breakes in, it just appears nobody has over ridden the squid proxy owner in the config.Peachey88 (Talk Page · Contribs) 08:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Submitted bug requesting change (#18903). Peachey88 (Talk Page · Contribs) 08:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Abuse filter sensitivity and cookie usage
Just now I submitted a Reference Desk answer where I tried to display a single line in "code" style and indented, by preceding the text with about six spaces. I got a message from the abuse filter to the effect that I had triggered it, because "Wikipedia does not normally use whitespace for formatting", but I could do a second "save page" and my item would be submitted. Okay, so I did that -- and I still got the "abuse filter" page.

I then changed the offending line to use  and I still got the "abuse filter" message. I tried resaving about four times with the same result every time. I then enabled cookies and tried again, and that did it -- on the second time it worked.

Well, if cookies need to be enabled for the abuse-filter "resave the page" override to work, then the message should say so.

It also seems to me that a filter that triggers on the addition of a single line with half a dozen spaces, particularly when they are being used in a situation where Wikipedia does treat whitespace as significant, is being a bit hypersensitive. (To be fair, I think there was one other line indented with spaces in the section I was editing, but it wasn't involved in my edit.)

(If you want to reply, please do it here, not to the talk page for this IP address.)

--208.76.104.133 (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I am the maintainer of the AbuseFilter extension.


 * There is no sensible way other than cookies to store whether or not a user has been warned for a specific page/edit. To be frank, if you have cookies (especially first-party cookies) disabled, you can expect interactive features in almost all websites to break. Explaining this in the interface would just clutter it up, in my opinion.


 * I agree with you that that particular filter seems a bit silly, but I don't really want to get into a discussion over it. &mdash; Werdna  &bull;  talk  19:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No other sensible way to detect warnings? Doesn't it already log warnings? --MZMcBride (talk) 19:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Please try thinking like a user who does not use the same settings you do. Since normal use of WP, including normal editing, does not require cookies to be enabled, it is not "just clutter" to tell people if it is required in this one situation. --208.76.104.133 (talk) 21:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Images
I have a very very big problem. When i put a file from commons named "Hurt.jpg" on the wikipedia's page, appears the cover, but not the file on Commons. The problem comes from this article, and the file i wanna use is. Thanks. --190.29.155.88 (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All files need unique names, even across projects, to avoid naming conflicts. File:Hurt.jpg already exists here as a non-free album cover. I advise you reupload the Commons image under a more descriptive name. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 16:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ctrl-click constantly inserted
After I posted to two RfAs I was notified that I inserted meaningless "(ctrl-click)": and. I never typed this in so it came as a shock when I checked the history and found it. I did a search on ctrl-click and found a lot of results. Might there be an issue with Google Chrome (which I began to use because FireFox keeps crashing on me)? I'm also an admin so I want to make sure this isn't any sort of vulnerability. It seems to be widespread:, , et al. What's going on? Valley</b>2 city ‽ 21:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See above; this was a bug in WikiEd. Purge your cache to get the non-buggy version. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, there's a thread that I just found on the wikied page. I think that Chrome is also a constant in these cases. Thanks. I'll purge and also update to the newest version of chrome. <b style="background:blue; color:white; font-family:Comic Sans MS;">Valley</b>2 city ‽ 21:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Working towards easier stubs
I have been in the proces of trying to simplify and unify asbox. I want to prepare this meta template to be deployed throughout Wikipedia, so that we can finally unify the stubs. Work on stubs needs to be done regardless of a metatemplate, because they use CSS classes and id's that are deprecated, so combining this with the deployment of a metatemplate to avoid such issues in the future seems logical. I can use more feedback however on my ideas that have been calling out in what seems like a desert. More feedback is welcomed on the following issue: Thank you all very much. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) template name
 * 2) template options
 * 3) how to specify images
 * 4) how to replace all the old stub templates
 * See more discussion here. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Due to opposition of Alai and Grutness, I will no longer pursue this. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Gnargh! Will they clean up the invalid XHTML and the outdated css? Amalthea  10:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I have made a AWB request, hoping that someone will do that work. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:05, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

How long is IP information on editors kept?
If I were to do a checkuser on an editor, how long is the records ip addresses kept? Calendar (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I found this: Checkuser :
 * IP information retention
 * As configured by Wikimedia, CheckUser keeps IP and other information on users for a fixed period, due to privacy concerns related to older log data that is potentially less useful. In general if a matter is not current, it is less likely to require administrative intervention.

but how long is this period? Calendar (talk) 21:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain that it is 90 days. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You sure? I thought it was based on the same data stream as the recent changes cache and that drops out after about a month. Dragons flight (talk) 01:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That was also my understanding. The IP data is stored in the recentchanges table, which expires after 30 days. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Checkuser mentions that it "migrates recent changes data to a separate table, and adds to that when new entries are added", so it most probably has a different expiration, too. Amalthea  15:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. The CheckUser extension does have associated sql schemas, so I guess you might be right. Which does beg the question of why the data is stored in the RC table in the first place... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know the exact number of days, but checkuser data definitely lasts longer than 30 days. --Deskana, Champion of the Frozen Wastes 16:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

From CheckUser.php:

Looking at Wikimedia's configuration files, there's no reason to believe they override the default. --MZMcBride (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

In actual practice it will be slightly longer than that as each passing edit has a 1% chance of triggering the process which deletes checkuser data for edits whose timestamp is less (i.e. earlier) than the current time minus 90 days. The probability of deletion enters the five nines after about 1,146 edits. The difference is negligible here (maybe 12 extra minutes on enwiki ?) but remains a serious factor on projects with lower traffic. — CharlotteWebb 11:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I confirm it's approximately 90 days. -- Luk  talk 14:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

(Ctrl-click)"> ?
Does anyone know what is going on here? It appears that links are being replaced by "(Ctrl-click)">" Thanks. KnightLago (talk) 03:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks to me like it's some problem on FayssalF's end. This diff shows that it's not affecting other editors to that page. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not just him, see  -- Jac 16888 Talk 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Well, I dunno then. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This most likely looks like a problem with wikEd.js which simply imports User:Cacycle/wikEd.js which is undergoing a bunch of edits. This seems silly, gadgets should be stable versions. --Splarka (rant) 07:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This happened to User:Woohookitty editing here, too.  Editors really should check their changes after saving the page, anyway. - Pointillist (talk) 08:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Left a note for Cacycle on a possibly related subject. --Splarka (rant) 08:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone. --  FayssalF   - Wiki me up® 13:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand nothing of the above and don't know what WikEd is, but is there a bot that can be tasked with removing all the Ctrl-click junk that's been added to articles and discussion pages? Deor (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it looks like most if not all of it has already been taken care of by various editors reverting the edits as routine maintenance. Most of the pages that come up on a search for <TT>(Ctrl-click)"></TT> don't seem to actually contain the string, and I am working on the rest of them now.  <B>Soap</B> Talk/Contributions 18:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I've got nearly everything. A search for <TT>(Ctrl-click)"></TT> returns over 3000 hits, but this number is being vastly overestimated by a few factors:
 * 1) The search engine doesn't seem to be able to tell apart the string <tt>(Ctrl-click)"></tt> from any permutation of the words "ctrl" and "click" on the page in any position;
 * 2) The search engine doesn't update every minute and therefore it misses all the pages that were reverted by Huggle users and others who saw the edits as just being run-of-the-mill vandalism or test edits or whatever;
 * 3) Some people are talking about it, and use the string in their discussion;
 * 4) Many of the pages that contain <TT>(Ctrl-click)"></TT> are duplicates of the Javascript form itself.
 * There are probably still a few edits that I missed due to my not being able to edit full-protected pages, or AWB's search maxing out at 500 hits, or something else I've missed, but I'll do another search again in a few hours and clean up anything more that turns up. <B>Soap</B> Talk/Contributions 19:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * When I edit using Chrome 1.0.154.65, it happens. When I use Firefox (latesta version), it doesn't. I have wikEd enabled. Dougweller (talk) 20:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is valuable information. I'll pass it along to Cacycle. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs)

I apologize for this and thanks for everybody who is helping to pin this problem down and to clean up. Please continue the discussion on User talk:Cacycle/wikEd. I suspect a rare broken browser version that causes this. It would help much if everybody who caused these "Ctrl-Click" inserts to report their browser name and version as well as all selected gadgets on that wikEd discussion page. Thanks in advance, Cacycle (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * What DougWeller says is right. I was using Chrome.
 * To answer Deor; here I used WikiEd itself to revert all instances of Control Click. It only worked once and not for all of them though. I could have done it with notpad or DreamWeaver. --  FayssalF   - Wiki me up® 23:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

A new version of wikEd has been deployed which should fix this Safari/Chrome issue. Everyone should shift reload and if problems still exist after that, then please file a new report. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking for help finding redundant disease names
I am working on the list of skin-related conditions and want to know which disease names are listed twice. I thought perhaps someone who is good with computers could figure out a fast way to get this data. So for example, if you had the following list:


 * Acne vulgaris
 * Acne aestivalis (Mallorca acne)
 * Acne conglobata
 * Mallorca acne
 * Acne vulgaris

I would want to know that Acne vulgaris, and Mallorca acne are found twice on the page.

Could someone help me with this?? ---kilbad (talk) 16:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm… short of programming ICD-10 §VII into some bot you could try assuming that all links containing <tt>class="mw-redirect"</tt> are redundant to something else (this would only work if there we have an article about each disease and the list contains a link to it). Then you could suppose that all redirects and non-unique links should be removed as duplicates. — CharlotteWebb 14:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Category to be or not to be
At Category:Wikipedia deletion there is a subcategory Category:Articles for deletion. It should contain one more category, but upon clicking the [+] it is actually empty. Can you tell me what is going on here? Debresser (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * What other category are you expecting to see? Category:Articles for deletion contains only pages. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 21:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you have a look ? It says behind the category name (1), which means there is 1 subcategory. Which one - is what I would like to know also. Debresser (talk) 21:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That category page apparently isn't fully updated in real time, and/or there is some sort of database glitch in which a sub-subcategory was deleted but that deletion was not fully posted in the database. It's certainly irritating to click on a [+] symbol when the page indicates that there is a subcategory and get "no subcategories"; hopefully it's only a minor irritation.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 00:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I am a mostly brightly tempered person, so it's not the irritation. It's principe: things should work the way they should. Debresser (talk) 01:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Trough Google's cache I found that Category:Articles for deletion using wrong syntax was recently removed in . Maybe it is still counted. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd been looking at that one. But a null-edit didn't help. I'll move it back anyway, since that is the right place for it. But now it says (2). So the problem is not solved. Debresser (talk) 10:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It currently says (0). Ruslik (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You are mistaking. Debresser (talk) 13:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Category:Articles for deletion now says "This category has the following subcategory, out of 2 total", with only one listed. Looks like that same old bug again. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 02:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Question
What is the difference between an infinite and an indefinite ban? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.93.79 (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether or not it is ever repealed. — CharlotteWebb 01:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * An "infinite" ban is one that will not be lifted ever. An "indefinite" ban is one that won't be lifted after a set period of time, but which might be lifted for other reasons (for example, if a user who made legal threats withdraws those threats). --Carnildo (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure there's such a thing as an "infinite ban". Infinite block, maybe, but I've never seen an infinite ban.  Now, if we're actually talking blocks, then in theory, Carnildo is correct, but it's probably worth mentioning that in practice, the terms "infinite block" and "indefinite block" are often used more or less interchangeably by a lot of people. Since infinite blocks (and bans, I suppose) can be appealed, even an "infinite ban" wouldn't necessarily be forever. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Need importing feature activated
Would it be possible to get Importing temporarily turned on for the English Wikipedia. We need it to merge in an article from Wikisource. The versions on en.wiki and wikisource both have significant edit histories that need to be preserved, thus an import and merge would be the best solution. Kaldari (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Regular snapshots of Special:Statistics ?
I wonder if there's a place where regular snapshots of the data in Special:Statistics are taken. Following the evolution of those values may be interesting. Cenarium (talk) 02:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be easy to grab numbers once an day or hour or so with a bot and post them on a sandbox page or possibly off-site. Probably ought to check more frequently as we approach three-million articles (I'm guessing this is why you're asking about this). Note I'm inclined to doubt the legitimacy of the previous milestone claim as I understand the page-count-bot operator and the "two-millionth article" creator were the same person.
 * It would be next to impossible to reconstruct old data due to the complexity of comparing a full history dump against the deletion log and several other factors. Special:Newpages only goes back 30 days and you can't just go by the first revision because it might not yet count as a "content page" as defined by the special:statistics page if that's what we're going by. One would have to look for the timestamp of the first revision which does qualify, but also consider that the article might be merged/redirected or moved on top of something that existed at an earlier date, etc.
 * And even after all that you'd have certain memory holes to account for. — CharlotteWebb 14:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've had the same thought about this being desirable. I don't think Cenarium was that concerned about the 3 millionth article; rather, if we actually want to use the statistics that are being generated, we need to save them, periodically. Once ever 30 days would certainly be adequate for measuring long-term trends; if someone was interested in a short-term study, they could always gather whatever they wanted by taking hourly or daily snapshots.


 * So, unless this is already being done, it sounds like something to post at WP:BOTREQ? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 18:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks all. I've been interested in the evolution of active users mostly and tried to pick up their numbers once in a while. But it would be interesting for all those values. Once in a day or even week would allow to see the evolution. I had thought of the three-millionth article seeing the statistics page, we'll probably see a nice competition for that one :) This looks like a task for a bot indeed, we could make graphs on the evolution then. Cenarium (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Bot request here. Cenarium (talk) 13:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

What Template displays the Username of who's reading it?
i.e. it would say "Hello Occono" if somebody put "Hello " (I know that's not it) on a page.--Occono (talk) 19:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't believe there is any way to do that. There is no magic word such as USERNAME. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thought this was familiar- see above. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * But I've seen it in a Userbox, it said something like "(Whatever the User's name was) is watching Occono right now!" or something.--Occono (talk) 14:34, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you remember where you saw that userbox? What you might have seen was something like 'I am watching you right now' which links to your userpage through the Special:MyPage link but which does not display the name on screen. Tra (Talk) 14:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As noted above, you can use, but only when transcluded. For example, User talk:Gadget850/Editnotice will show my username, but when you edit my talk page, it will show your name. This is because the editnotice is transcluded and you are the user making the current revision. BTW: "is watching " is a creepy use and should be whacked. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 15:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it must have been the Special:MyPage. I probably just misremembered it as actually saying my username. (I saw it a while ago.) Thanks.--Occono (talk) 18:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Collapsible rows in tables.
Is there a way to collapse only specific rows/columns instead of the whole table? Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}<sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">κοντριβς – WP Physics} 22:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. Certainly not column-wise. You could take advantage of the fact that table header cells are not collapsed, but that would totally screw over accessibility for screen readers etc, so Don't Do That, at least not in the mainspace. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm more concerned with rows, asking about collapsible columns was for curiosity mostly. How would I take advantage of uncollapsed header cells? Tables in tables?Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}<sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">κοντριβς – WP Physics} 23:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Pah, nm, it didn't work as I thought it did. However, that's probably a good thing, because it would have totally screwed up the semantic clarity of the table. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Passing info between template calls on the same page
Some questions about passing info to or between templates: (1) Is there a way to pass information between template calls in the same page? So that, for example, a template at the bottom of the page may expand to different things depending on whether there was a previous call to  in the same page, or on the parameters that were passed to. (The and mechanisms do just that.) (2) How can a template test the options set by the reader in his/her profile? (I can test whether User:/Option/FOO exists, but there must be a better way...) Where should I start looking for this info? Many thanks, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 00:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither is possible, besides the #ifexists call. And remember that #ifexists is an expensive parser function, meaning that it can only be used 500 times in one page (and if it starts being used on many pages to the point that domas notices, whatever is doing that will be removed/disabled). and .   [[Sam Korn ]] (smoddy) 08:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, document.write sucks, it just inserts wherever it executes, which sometimes is in a &lt;textarea&gt;, always use importScript or importScriptURI. --Splarka (rant) 08:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. How should I fix it? The script is an RC patrol script if I remember correctly. Can I fix it by changing  to   without compromising the function or am I going to have to delete it entirely? I don't know much about scripts... Sifaka  talk  14:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Like this diff. Problem solved, though there may be more cases in VoA's scripts themselves. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

How do I set alternative names, so that they show up on search

 * I have had similar issues with many entries in Wikipedia:
 * - Example: A city is named SojioblablaOehalei with special Hungarian letters,
 * - but is also known as Ihel or Ohaly.


 * - When searching the web for W:Ohaly I find the Soji... but not when searching Wikipedia.
 * - It says "No title...of this... found".


 * I want the entry to have "Alternative Titles" so that they show up when searching.
 * Must I make a whole page with a link to this one, or is there some way to add a tag inside this page.


 * Thanks, --Pashute (talk) 12:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * See Redirect. You have to create a redirect page if you want the search box to go directly to the target article. You cannot achieve that by only editing the target. If there is no redirect but the searched name appears somewhere on the target article then the article will be in the list of search results together with other articles containing the name. This assumes the article has been indexed by the search function which can take some time. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's an example: Cracow is an unaccented alternate name for the Polish city of Kraków. Wikipedia has a page called Cracow which contains a redirect instruction telling the system to jump directly to the Kraków article.  In addition, the alternate name is mentioned early on the main page, e.g. "Kraków, in English also spelled Krakow or Cracow, is one of the largest...".  The first technique is for searching and linking from within Wikipedia, and the second one helps ensure external search engines like Google can find the main article easily. - Pointillist (talk) 13:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Easy way to list all past moves of an article?
Currently, viewing the move log for an article only lists entries where the article has been moved AWAY from that title. Is there a way to also list the instances where the article has been moved TO the title? Or, even better, a way to show ALL the previous titles that the article has had? Currently, the only way I know to compile a history of an article's title is to manually scan back through its history, and jotting down all the moves that I can see. However, this can take a long time for an article with a long history. Any shortcuts that I can use? Or is this an issue for the developers?--Aervanath (talk) 05:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Is there feedback from the search engine results?
One of the big arguments on primary page naming debates is whether or not casual readers can easily find the primary named topic; what is the most common way of referring to the topic; and are there major competing uses for the primary name. Some examples would be debates over Sun vs. The Sun; Moon vs. The Moon vs. Moon (Earth) vs. Earth's moon; and that old favourite, Georgia.

One of the criteria used in these perennial debates is how often the actual target pages are viewed, for instance 100000 views of Pooh (bear) vs. 10 views of Pooh (deprecative) would indicate the primary usage of the term is Winnie. However this analysis is confounded by page views from wikilinks within other articles.

It strikes me that use of our (vastly improved) search engine could be incorporated into these discussions, namely, when people come here with only a vague idea of what they are looking for and use the search box, where do they click first on viewing the search results?

So my question is, does our search engine collect statistics on search terms and which candidate link eventually gets clicked? I'm thinking just article space here, it's still a little messy on prioritising results from project spaces. If these stats are being collected, where is the raw data and do we have any facilities for meta-searches of search outcomes? Franamax (talk) 02:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hopefully not Pooh (rapper) (see #54). Seriously you might experiment with http://stats.grok.se/ (not a shock site!), but please refrain from deleting content solely on the basis that WP:NOBODYREADSIT. Personally I'm trying to figure out why I got totally slash-dotted back on Pearl Harbor Day. Ideally we will have enough redirects and disambig pages for readers not to see the search screen unless they're looking for something we don't have. To that end I'd make the "wanna start a new page with this title" messages more prominent on the search screen and worry less about the rest of it. — CharlotteWebb 02:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, stats.grok is what everyone uses, and no I won't delete the unread articles, that would include all the ones I've written. ;)
 * The trouble is though that stats.grok doesn't give you the "referrer" variable. So of those 515 views of Big Pooh and the 3010 views through the Rapper Big Pooh redirect, we don't know how many were through article links vs. the search box, and we don't know how many were picked from the search screen when someone typed in "rapper pooh".
 * Interestingly too, searching for "rapper big poo" gives you no hits. I'm aware that the search box wants to auto-complete the "poo", but if you miss it, you're left with nothing. Plus I'm trying to see how many times I can type "poo" before I trip the abuse filter. :) Franamax (talk) 20:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, we might need some disambiguation pages as this is the guy I was talking about. — CharlotteWebb 02:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohh, you meant MC Pooh! :) Funny, the interview I read from Cream where they asked Rapper Big Pooh why he didn't call himself "MC Big Pooh" didn't mention there was another Pooh. Rap is definitively NOT my field, but I may look at it. OTOH, if there are conflicting articles on Eeyore (rapper), I'm all over it. Eeyore is way the best of the lot, not like that stupid Wol (rapper). ;) Franamax (talk) 22:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Peculiar error
Hi folks - I've been trying to start a talk page for a new article I've just started, Maryhill, New Zealand, so that I can add a WPNZ template to it. Unfortunately, every time I click on the discussion redlink at the top, I get an error mesage: ''Appliance Error (internal_error). An unrecoverable error was encountered: ""''. I've tried with two different browser software packages, tried logging out and logging in, nada. Any advice (or if not, can someone else make the page and add the template, please?) Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Google results suggest that error is from some sort of proxy server made by Blue Coat Systems. Other than that, I have no idea. Anomie⚔ 01:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In the meantime, I've created the page and added the template without incident. Warofdreams talk 01:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  07:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If this is not a proxy server of your own, can you please state the ISP you are using if you don't might disclosing such information? Other people might be affected as well. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Erm... that might be a problem. I'm currently at 202.180.81.29, but I think my ISP (Slingshot.co.nz) rotates between several different addresses. I can edit the talk page fine at the moment, and seem to be able to create other talk pages. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Cropped images problem
A file exists on commons; File:Novum Organum 1650.jpg.

made a derivative, cropped version, and uploaded it to Wikipedia (not commons), as "Novum Organum 1650 cropped.jpg".

This caused the odd problems - I think because when the original Commons version was displayed on a page, mediawiki generated the 'wiki-cropped' version of the original 'cropped' appended to the filename.

It then mysteriously started working, perhaps when the wiki-cropped version was removed from the cache?

I think that just moving the new version from Wikipedia to Commons would have 'solved' the problem, but I hate making assumptions, so to avoid any possible future problems, I have moved it to Commons and renamed it at the same time, to File:Novum Organum 1650 crop.jpg. The Wikipedia File:Novum Organum 1650 cropped.jpg has been deleted.

I can't see an existing reference to this issue - ie, putting it simply;

If a file "Foo.jpg" is on commons, and "Foo cropped.jpg" is on Wikipedia, the conflict between the auto-generated cropped version name and the filename of the Wikipedia version causes the latter to display incorrectly.

My question: should this be reported on Bugzilla?

 Chzz  ►  12:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Since when do we have cropping features ? I thought we only had thumbing. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 14:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Well, I did say 'I think' etc. The reason could be something else; if anyone can illuminate, please do. The fact is that thumb was showing as a very small solid block, and then later began working. Any ideas why?  Chzz  ►  14:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe just a caching problem. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 16:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Newbie to templates - seeking assistance
I am trying to develop a citation template for a specific book that I have transcribed at WikiSource. I was thinking that it would be worth building on the framework of Citation/core, by applying the static parameters in the template, and allowing addition for the parameters that vary. Any guidance or pointers to tutorials would be appreciated. Thx. -- billinghurst (talk) 08:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Base template User:billinghurst/template
 * Data page User:billinghurst/sandbox4


 * Why does this needs its own template, and can't just use cite book? Starting to create citation templates per book is a bit excessive. How often are you planning to use it? Amalthea  08:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Book has a couple of thousand of people, and from families of influence, and I was looking to make it easy for myself or others to utilise it. billinghurst (talk)


 * I've given it a shot. However, I would recommended using a regular cite book template and place (or similar) on your user page, then you'll only have to copy+paste then fill |page= and |=accessdate. Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}<sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">κοντριβς – WP Physics} 08:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * k -- billinghurst (talk) 09:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Or you can create a temporary template that you will SUBST to output the correct Cite book template. -- Luk  talk 12:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Book won't download
Very soon after the Books feature appeared, I created this book and downloaded a copy of it. Because the articles have been improved a bit since early March, I would like to download a new copy. I've tried several times in the last couple of weeks, but every time that I try, after downloading for a time it stops and gives me a message of:"An error occured on the render server: Collection/article could not be rendered

Return to Main Page." Wondering if this were a problem with my computer, I decided to try another book, and this one downloaded quickly and without problems.  Any idea what could be wrong?  Nyttend (talk) 19:02, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Mis-sorted dates
At Comparison of screencasting software, there's a "latest release date" column. Is there a particular date format the table should be using in order to sort it properly? If sorting with most recent at the top, 2009 dates are first, but the months sort from January forward. Tempshill (talk) 04:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * See template . -- Tcncv (talk) 04:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Should non-administrator bots have the ability to suppress redirect on page moves?

 * ^ I thought only administrators had the ability to suppress redirects on page moves? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 17:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Special:ListGroupRights. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, yes, I just tested this on my bot and it has the ability. The question remains; should bots have this ability? I assume it was put in there to allow page-move vandalism-reversion bots to use it, but I don't think editors should be using their bots to access this feature for reasons other than vandalism cleanup. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 17:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC) and for the record, there is no indication whatsoever that Erik9 has used this function erroneously/abusively, it is simply the above log action that brought this to my attention. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk  18:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Only my own userpage was moved. Per Bot_policy, "any bot or automated editing process that affects only the operators', or their own, user and talk pages (or subpages thereof), and which are not otherwise disruptive, may be run without prior approval." Except in my userspace, I have used my bot's pagemove and redirect suppression functionality only in the course of performing approved tasks - Xeno's comments seem to suggest that I have been unilaterally making articles, project pages, etc, disappear without redirects, which misrepresents the situation. Erik9 (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I made it look like I was looking for sanctions or admonishment; I'm not. I just want some thoughts on whether this is allowable or desirable. Someone could use this to move their talk page history to say User:Foo/sandbox and then have an unsuspecting admin delete it if they weren't paying attention, leaving no trail in the history of their new talk page. So even with your quote of the bot policy up there we've got an undesirable situation. Again, I'm not saying you would do this, indeed the only reason I left you a note was because it was your bot's edit that brought this to my attention. My point is that options that some administrators don't even know when to use appropriately shouldn't be available to everyone with a bot flag. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bot_policy only permits userspace operations "which are not otherwise disruptive". Bot operators are already expected to be trusted users, in order to be given access to accounts whose edits will be hidden from standard RC patrol tools, and would not likely have any proclivities to use their misuse their bot accounts in attempts to dispose of their talk page histories - except perhaps for a certain disruptive editor who the Arbitration Committee is about to ban for a year, but who you adamantly supporting retaining a bot-flagged account until the banhammer actually falls. Of course, divesting bot-flagged accounts of all features which would make them easier to cause trouble with than standard accounts, so as to more easily allow disruptive editors to be bot operators, would make the bot flag useless for its intended purpose. Erik9 (talk) 18:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, good point regarding botops being generally trusted users. However there is still the concern that they misuse it out of ignorance, rather than malice. As for the second bit, I commented at your talk. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This should arguably be the default behavior, or at least an option which is available to everyone by default. I find it absurd that anybody can move a page from B → C (even when "C" might be something utterly obscene) but only an admin can follow up by moving a second page from A → B (to occupy the space where "C" used to be). — CharlotteWebb 17:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with enabling redirect suppression for everyone is that pagemoves without redirects essentially amount to deletions of pages at their original titles, without the benefit of showing up in the deletion logs which are automatically displayed when editing a previously deleted page. So not only could a pagemove vandal relocate Nemifitide to zjw4b4sdg80yuqcy9834j, they could also make the article disappear at its original location, forcing anyone trying to revert the vandalism to manually query the move log (to which there is no convenient link at the original page title) to determine what happened to the article. Forcing the creation of redirects whenever pagemoves are performed by unprivileged accounts limits the prospects for disruption. Erik9 (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a small beer as it would still be easily traceable in the page-move log for each page. Of course it wouldn't hurt to have it also appear in the deletion log as some kind of "auto-delete" of the redirect during the outgoing page-move. The other solution would be to loosen the draconian criteria under which redirects can be auto-deleted to accommodate an incoming page-move. Either way works. — CharlotteWebb 18:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Having it appear in the delete log would probably be a good idea. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't need it to appear in the deletion log, we just need a "this page has interesting log history" message that's more general than just "this page has a deletion log entry". <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, whatever works! –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, <tt>suppressredirect</tt> can be given to the rollbacker group, who, in this case, will be able to revert page move vandalism. (You can call this move-rollback.) Ruslik (talk) 13:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bots ought to respect theit BRFA terms, regardless of their technical abilities. I think that it's not a big issue for now (it can be useful in some cases, without having to create YAOG (Yet Another UserGroup), as long as individual bot owners abusing it are reprimanded. -- Luk  talk 18:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be YAUG? =) My concern is that some admins don't know when to appropriately use this, let alone botops. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 18:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm on my way to edit the English language page to better reflect my obviously neutral view of spelling and grammar :P -- Luk  talk 07:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

&lt;cite&gt;...&lt;/cite&gt; and question
At Serbian Wikipedia, I'm trying to use these two to get effects like in eg. Che Guevara. When one clicks on an item in Notes section, eg. Taibo 1999, it takes them to the References section, highlighting with light blue the corresponding references item (Taibo II, Paco Ignacio (1999). Guevara, Also Known ...). I use the same system, but only auto-generated items (generated by selector, which you don't have in sr:MediaWiki:Common.css — AlexSm 20:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That CSS only works with the References class; this class gets added by MediaWiki:Cite references prefix and works only with cite.php by use of <ref ></ref>. You might find Help:Cite messages useful. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 21:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I looked all the links upon, and I figure our MediaWiki:Common.css should be edited, adding cite:target to ol.references > li:target, sup.reference:target list. However, since I'm a regular user, I don't have necessary permissions to edit this page. I will ask some of our administrators how it can be edited and by whom. --Дарко Максимовић (talk) 22:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * For those interested, the Serbian version is sr:Че Гевара.


 * No. Again, the References class works only with <ref ></ref>. It has been a long time since I saw <cite ></cite> used and I had to go look it up— I am pretty sure this is considered obsolete. It took me a bit to figure out what was going on— you have to click on the ↓ in the notes to get to the reference. You could apply the same rules to cite, but I don't see a class associated with it, nor do I know the MediaWiki messages, if any, off the top of my head. The English version uses the cite tag, but does not use this type of linking. If you really want to keep this linking, the I recommend using the group feature of as documented at Footnotes. It looks like the Serbian version of reflist supports groups. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 23:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I managed to add code to MediaWiki:Common.css as described above, and the thing I wanted works. Clicking on the links highlights the items in anchored section. However, the things you said about reference groups intrigued me and I will have to take a look. Do you have an address where I can find some documentation about those groups? Thank you. --Дарко Максимовић (talk) 12:50, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * See Footnotes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Moving user page to an unused username
Is it appropriate for a user to be able to move his or her talk page to an unregistered name? See, for example, User talk:Delores789 which at present redirects to User talk:Cleopatra789, yet the latter is unregistered. It might well be an attempt to change one's username in this case, but it seems to have some potential for abuse too. I'm not sure what, if anything, should be done, but it strikes me as rather surprising that it's possible. --AndrewHowse (talk) 00:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * JFYI - also under discussion here.  <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;">  7   talk   00:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you can consider this resolved. An Admin has moved the user talk page back to the proper user and notified the user how to CHU if they would like.   <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;">  7   talk   00:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmm. I understand that this specific case has been resolved, but is the general capability something that ought to be possible? --AndrewHowse (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No it shouldn't, it causes all manner of problems, the key one being that its difficult trying to find the users contributions page or even figure out who they are. Also, when a user does that, the resulting page is "ownerless", and can quite easily be deleted-- Jac 16888 Talk 02:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly the thing that AbuseFilter could prevent, but for some reason nobody seems to be interested in doint it, see Wikipedia talk:Abuse filter. — AlexSm 06:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The filter that exists could be probably be activated with a warning at least, or possibly even a disallow, I've been through every single item in the list of hits and the few I didn't revert were ones that had already been reverted-- Jac 16888 Talk 10:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Watchlist Question
I seem to be having an issue with my watchlist. I've added Stockland Martel to my watchlist, but none of the changes are showing. There are changes to the article today (by me, mainly). I made sure that none of the "Hide my edits" or "Hide minor edits" options were selected. I also added the redirect to my watchlist (Stockland martel) and can see the most recent action (the move to the proper capitalization). I can also see other changes happening to other articles on my watchlist. Does anyone know why this one article isn't showing? TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man 16:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I had the same issue, I guess the move screwed something up. It seems to be working now that I have made a null edit. Can you confirm? -- Luk  talk 16:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it seems to show up now. I wonder what changed? Anyways, thanks for the help! TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  17:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * To be precise, Luk made a dummy edit and not a null edit. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Constructed link in editnotice is a problem
When I go to create a new page, for example Chris King Precision Components, the editnotice suggests (fourth bullet) that one option is to start the new article as a draft that isn't in mainspace. That's good, except the exact wording is:


 * You can also start your new article at Special:MyPage/Chris King Precision Components. You can develop the article, with less risk of deletion, ask other editors to help work on it, and move it into "article space" when it is ready.

When I click on Special:MyPage/Chris King Precision Components, the software opens up User:John Broughton/Chris King Precision Components, which is great, but a bit unexpected. Is it possible for someone to change this editnotice so that the link explicitly begins "User:Username/" (with "Username" being whoever the registered editor is) rather than "Special:MyPage/"?

-- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki:Newarticletext. I believe this is not possible, because there is no magic word or template that gives the username. The reason if I remember correctly is, that it would not be possible to cache the parser result for such a request. For every person that watches a red linked page, the Template would have to be re-parsed, and the developers don't like that :D. We can change it to "User:Your_username" or something. Might be slightly more helpful. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 01:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times but a variable would have more evil uses than good ones. Like if I include it as part of a url, like this I will compromise the privacy of whosoever clicketh thereupon. Or if I design an elaborate template with something like this buried at the bottom of it Then when you complain about it nobody will know what you're talking about. There are other possibilities which shouldn't be any more difficult to brainstorm. — CharlotteWebb 01:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with CharlotteWebb. Uncyclopedia has a hacked-up version of based on javascript, and the most typical use of it really is the equivalent of "  is a doofus". There's no reason to think that the beneficial uses would outweigh the bad ones. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

This feature (the ability to automagically make a page in your userspace rather than mainspace) has been discussed in way more than just this VPT page. It is a perennial topic at anything to do with page creation, new user help, first article help, speedy deletion, article rescue - pretty much anywhere people are concerned about effort being wasted on the wiki. There's a definite hole with being able to pick up the "viewing" username, rather than the "editing" username. As noted above, it's to do with the way the parser functions work and the caching model. Perhaps the better solution would be to reword to say "You can start the article in your userspace instead, just by clicking on this link: whatever... and it will open a new page in your user space. " That gets a little closer to mitigating the unexpectedness. The message should be that you just have to click the link and magic does the rest. Franamax (talk) 01:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact, now that I think of it, could there just be a pipe after the linked "Special:MyPage"? This would look like magiclink (e.g.magiclink - everyone should end up with a new page in their own userspace). The parser gets PAGENAME right on redlinks, and the "magiclink" name says it all... Franamax (talk) 02:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it doesn't get the color right because it's not inclined to check whether the current reader has a user sub-page with that title. Not really a big deal as you can in fact use something like: [ magiclink] but you'd want to think of a more meaningful label than that. This would give it the neutral light-blue color which doesn't imply whether or not the page exists. — CharlotteWebb 13:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Some things: I wrote the JS at Uncyclopedia and I regret it to this day. My main objection with it and a parserfunction version is the failure with anon users. However, there is the new variable (and soon to be parserfunction):. And it has an interesting side-effect. In order to be substable (it can't operate on save by getting the name of the revision, which is why there is no subst:REVISIONID), it has to return the name of the current user when <tt>if( $this->mRevisionId )</tt> is false. This means, for system messages, previews, api action=parse, or extensions that render text without associated revisions, works exactly like. For MediaWiki:Newarticletext this is perfect. See testwiki:MediaWiki:Newarticletext for an example. --Splarka (rant) 08:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh. This of course also works in the user-editable editnotices (see [ mine]), with the potential risks mentioned by Charlotte. Amalthea  09:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

<tt>Ô_ō</tt> "Hello, CharlotteWebb, and welcome to my talk page." ← uhhhh, creepy. I don't suppose there'd be any easy way to disable this in contexts known to be exploitable. — CharlotteWebb 13:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Submitted as 19006. --Splarka (rant) 08:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Editing lede (or lead) section
Has something happened to the option that allows the first section of an article to be edited separately from the rest of an article? This was really convenient when dealing with changes to the ledes of large articles, but I no longer seem to have it. J. Spencer (talk) 03:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think I guessed what happened: something in the italictitle template on pages I see a lot must be interfering with it. J. Spencer (talk) 03:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's definitely a conflict between the two scripts (MediaWiki:Gadget-edittop.js and MediaWiki:Common.js). The edit-top gadget inserts its code withing the &lt;h1&gt; element.  It appears that the italic title code later replaces everything inside the &lt;h1&gt; element with the updated title.  -- Tcncv (talk) 04:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we want this fixed ? We could add an id to the topsection inGadget-edittop.js, remove the element if present and then re-add it in Common.js, after the h1 is set. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It would certainly be helpful, as it's currently in over 750 pages. J. Spencer (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

PAGESIZE and commas
Do commas stop the PAGESIZE magic word from working?

For example the page size of Talk:Main Page is returned at.

But the size of Talk:Fartown Ground, Huddersfield is returned as, which is blank. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * But the size of Fartown Ground, Huddersfield is returned as, and Talk:Stuarts Draft, Virginia is returned as (just a banner). So, it is not just the comma. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 11:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, cleverly diagnosed, thanks. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * He is good at that. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Tangentially related; can someone write me a bit of code to always show the pagesize at the top whilst in the edit window even if it doesn't meet the minimum length? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh? :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * when I edit this (whole) page, it tells me "This page is 93 kilobytes long." However, it wouldn't do that, if it was say,,, 16 kb long. I want it to. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I see. Could be tricky; easiest to get some JavaScript to grab the page text and count the characters (that would work here, anyway, wouldn't on wikis with multibyte charsets).  You could take it straight from the editbox, but not if you're editing a section; then you'd have to call the API or something.  Possible, but a bit messy. You couldn't do it with PAGESIZE, for sure, unless we do something really wierd with editnotices.... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Uuuuh ... per-editor editnotices? Jeez, check out what happens when you [ edit this testpage]. :) Anyway, if anything the pagesize info could just always be written into the page, but hidden with css if a page is smaller than a certain limit. That way Xeno could show it using his monobook.css. Amalthea  14:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I meant by "something really wierd with editnotices", per the discussion above. I don't see that happening any time soon; I'm surprised no one's decided that the hack is a security vulnerability yet... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I figured this would be a simple line of code. Don't worry about it, it's not important. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 17:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Actually a lot of articles here use multi-byte characters (anything outside the U+0000–U+00FF range is stored as multiple bytes. So if I write something like "People's Republic of Калифорния" it is 31 chars long but the last 10 are utf-8 encoded in 2 bytes each bringing the total to 41. Pro tip: s = document.getElementById("wpTextbox1").value // content of the edit-box chars = s.length; bytes = encodeURIComponent(s).replace(/%../g, '_').length; — CharlotteWebb 09:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * U+0000–U+007F, actually. UTF-8 has the details. Anomie⚔ 13:48, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) I don't think it would be unreasonable to include <tt>var wgPageSize</tt> in the HTML output's CDATA. If there's not a bug filed about that already, I suggest filing one.

For your specific issue, you can easily use an API call to pull page size. I have a script that changes the background color on templates on templates that aren't used. Similar concept.... --MZMcBride (talk) 18:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Cross-wiki template transclusion
I'm curious.. is it possible to include content from sister sites via transclusion? I ask because I'd like to put the weather and the WikiNews ticker on my user page here. Possible? Not possible? If yes, how? If no, why? I tried using for the Wikinews ticker and it didn't work. I've already read mw:Manual:$wgEnableScaryTranscluding and don't see anything there useful. - ALLST✰R ▼ echo wuz here @ 09:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Then you know the answer: yes, it can be done in MediaWiki. No, it's not enabled on WMF wikis.  So unfortunately, no, not at the present time. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 09:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is the same answer you got at WP:AN. Amalthea  09:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All that was said at the AN thread was "i believe it's possible but not turned on" and "go to Help Desk". So no, it wasn't same answer I got at AN. No need in being rude about it. Help Desk sent me to the MediaWiki page I linked above. Couldn't find anything useful there. So where does one go to bring up a proposal to allow cross-wiki template transclusion. - ALLST✰R ▼ echo wuz here @ 10:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See, which depends on . This is one of our older feature requests. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 10:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to be rude, sorry. I saw you ask virtually the same question at AN and had to think that you didn't read the reply, since you neither acknowledged there nor referred to it here. Amalthea  10:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

War on white-space, part xiv
I realize that those using screen-reading software and such want the disambig links to be the first item in the bodyContent, with no exceptions ever, but this creates a perverse visual layout whenever images or infoboxes are involved. This is because the "for other uses" message takes up the entire line even when it doesn't need to, leaving a big empty margin in the upper right. Is there some kind of CSS trick than can allow the infobox to occupy the top-right corner, and for the disambiguation message(s) (sometimes there are several!) to wrap around the infobox rather than pushing it downward? See big red arrow in screen-shot http://i43.tinypic.com/300cuad.jpg — CharlotteWebb 19:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * As a screen reader user, on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a trivial annoyance and 10 is the scrolling marquis that the Wikimedia Foundation once tried to use for fundraising, I'd rate this issue as 1.5. So ... don't worry about it. Graham 87 03:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not something you can fix with CSS (at least not properly). Either the order has to be changed, or we just live with the "wasted space". In my opinion, the article does not start with a dab. the dab, like cleanup boxes are metadata. So the full article starts with the infobox and the lead. As such, I think it is appropriate that the whole article is moved down when such metadata is present. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, given those choices I'd change the order. People have wildly varying notions of what is "meta-data". For example they often put the disambig notice above the cleanup/banner templates, which seriously looks uglier than a mud fence. — CharlotteWebb 17:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Current guidance recommends that disambiguation notes go above other content: Lead section, Hatnote, Accessibility. While I agree that it looks bad when used with maintenance templates, I do think it is the correct sequence to place it above other content. But it would be nice if the formatting would allow the disambiguation notes to not look so bad when placed at the top. older ≠ wiser 23:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Would you agree that the layout also looks bad if anything such as a picture or an infobox is floating (with limited buoyancy) on the right-hand side of the page, particularly when several disambiguation messages are present? Could we somehow make all for-this-see-that cruft float on the left rather than pushing everything down? Is there any way to do that without giving them a definite width? (as screen-size (unknown) minus the side-bar (135px), minus the infobox (various) might be hard to estimate).
 * Maybe what we really need is:
 * Some way to make the disambig notices appear first in the html, but in a less awkward position in the browser window. Some kind of advanced CSS, or javascript failing that. For example I notice that the side-bar and the interface links up at the top of the monobook skin are actually at the end of the html document. I don't savvy exactly how this is done but maybe we could do something similar with all the disambig notices and infoboxes and cleanup banners to pursue a more feng shui layout. Or:
 * Devise a better way to tell screen-readers the order in which things should be read. Just thinking out loud here but maybe we can find some programmers willing to come up with some kind of plug-ins or extensions for popular screen-readers, or even build "our own" open-source screen-reader from scratch as a companion to the MW software. Then it could have extra settings to address some of the most frequent and difficult accessibility complaints.
 * Let me know if any of these ideas are realistic.
 * Cheers. — CharlotteWebb 15:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi. I just happened upon this thread because it's at the top of this page. These notes find their way to the implementation at Dablink which uses a div-element — which takes the full width of the page. It seems to me that the thing to do is add <tt>float: left;</tt> to <tt>class="dablink"</tt>. This would work in the general case, I think, as the div's block would only extend as far right as the content pushed it; in typical cases this would not reach the infobox or some picture seeking the top-right. Of course, there are probably a million or so usages of this, so who know what odd stuff is out there. Try it and see who barks? Cheers Jack Merridew 08:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, initial content would need to be cleared to drop under the note and this could be messy, stupid browsers will be difficult. Jack Merridew 08:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

As for screen readers, it would probably be easiest to make scripts for JAWS, or modify the free open-source screen readers such as NonVisual Desktop Access and Orca. However as I've said before, I don't care where the disambig notice is placed, as long as it's somewhere above the lead section test. My accessibility-related pet peeves are line breaks between HTML list items, tables of contents in non-standard locations, and violations of the layout guide; the latter is probably more of an OCD thing. Graham 87 15:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've got to hand it to you Graham. I keep forgetting you are blind and sometimes I have trouble believing it because I have sampled some of the software you mention and walked away wondering how someone could possibly read Wikipedia with it, much less edit. Don't take this the wrong way, I mean it as a compliment. I tried turning my screen off for a minute and got hopelessly lost, and ultimately ended up deleting the stuff.
 * Overall I'd say we have some concerns in common. More and more I find articles whose "references" or "see also" sections are actually a dozen list elements with one item each. That annoys the hell out of me too, as does putting (for whatever reason) images on the left and the TOC on the right. However one could argue that the broken list thing is more of weakness in the wiki-text, and that lines starting with an asterisk should be part of the same list even if there are blank lines between them. As it is broken lists have visibly more space between the bullet points, and I dislike wasted space. Also they break certain user scripts designed to make nested lists collapsible.
 * Just curious, how does your software handle empty "p" (paragraph) tags. Is there a long silent pause or what? That's another layout issue that chaps my butt, as certain editors like to add extra spaces between paragraphs so it looks better in whatever version of Internet Explorer they are stuck with (which sounds more like a CSS/standards-compliance problem to me). — CharlotteWebb 18:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the compliment. It's been a matter of getting used to the layout of the site, and how JAWS responds to it. It helps that most Wikipedia pages have a consistent layout, so I can use quick navigation keys like "h" to move to the next heading or "t" to move to the next table. Even minor changes can be disruptive; see my ramblings at Template talk:Resolved.
 * HTML lists with line breaks read like this with JAWS: "list of 1 items, foo, list end; list of 1 items, bar, list end..." rather than "list of 33 items, foo, bar, bas..., list end". And each list item is on its own line, as well as the list beginning and list end indicators.
 * If you mean text like this piece of nonsense, JAWS seems to be smart enough to condense the paragraph tags into one line break. I read Wikipedia line by line, because I hate the way JAWS used to pause for ages at the end of each paragraph, and it's just become a habit for me. Therefore my concern is not big long pauses, but pressing down arrow many times for no apparent reason. This method might sound ridiculously slow, but I've learnt to quickly filter lines that indicate a link, and I set my screen reader to speak extremely rapidly. I seem to work fast enough on Wikipedia for most purposes. Graham 87 02:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, well see… I had to turn the speed down to understand any of the dozen or so voices, which tended to sound like Stephen Hawking or the uncredited lead vocalist of "Fitter Happier" by Radiohead. — CharlotteWebb 13:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Description of the Problem
When text and images coexists in an article, I sometimes find that the page is not rendered properly. Computer form factor is one of the examples. In the section Overview of form factors, the text "modern PCs. The latest update to the ATX" overlaps the image below. I think the CSS of Wikipedia ("common.css"?) should be improved to avoid such problem. --Quest for Truth (talk) 18:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that is a FireFox bug. Anomie would know more on this. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 21:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems Firefox calculates the width of the line box in those cases based on the top edge of the line box, rather than the full height of the line box. Anomie⚔ 23:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I did some experimentation using Firebug that seems to confirm that: lowering the float pixel by pixel (by increasing the height of the infobox) makes the line below wrap as soon as the box intersects the line, while raising it doesn't make the line above wrap until the top of the float is even with the top of the line. (If anyone tries to reproduce this, remember that it's the margin box of the float that counts. So set the margins to 0 to make it easier to see what's going on.) Anomie⚔ 14:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) That is not something that can be fixed in common.css; this seems an old Firefox bug rearing it's head. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 21:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm running FireFox 3.0.10 on two different systems, and the spacing is fine. The top of the fram is even with the top of the line of text. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 00:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

(od) Please note, anyone testing this bug should load the page from revision 286270148 which does not include edits made since Quest posted the original comment. I am looking into this and it is exclusive to Mozilla, but not all versions/platforms. More to come. Sswonk (talk) 01:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I see the issue now. In that version, the image is after the section header, but the infobox pushes it down, causing the alignment problem. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 01:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Update: I am also able to reproduce this problem in Webkit apps on a MacBook (Safari, Fluid.app SSB of Wikipedia) and confirm on WinXP Gecko (FF 3.0.10, SeaMonkey 1.1.16) and Mac Gecko (FF 3.0.10, Camino 1.6.7, SeaMonkey 1.1.16), so my previous post re:Mozilla versions is wrong. I can make the text crash by resizing the windows manually by dragging the bottom right corner of the browser in all cases. Opera 9.64 on the MacBook displays properly regardless of window size. I'm using User:Sswonk/CFF_test to test the bug, having added several paragraphs of placeholder text in place of the bullet list on the page to remove white space. I am not sure but I believe it is a combination of the infobox and the wide thumb image that generates this bug. Note that on the Webkit browsers the thumb box covers the paragraph text and on the Gecko browsers the text displays on top of the top border of the thumb. So, my thinking is that if this isn't a Gecko (Firefox) bug then Quest for Truth is definitely on to something about the WP CSS. Sswonk (talk)
 * I'm not 100% sure, but I think this may actually be the proper HTML behaviour. Like WP:BUNCH, this is another effect that is related. Pushed down float's are a problem, wherever we have them basically. The problem here is that the baseline of the text needs to hit the CONTENT of the thumb div (that is an image within it, or text within it), before the text is "pushed aside". Unfortunately, there is no way to tackle this problem without fully reconsidering the way we insert images into the wikicode I think. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:05, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes— the issue is dependent on the screen size. I see the problem with Safari 3.2.2/WinXP, but it does not occur with Opera 9.51 or Internet Explorer 8.0. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 11:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem depends on web browser and windows size. If User:TheDJ is right about the reason behind, can it be possible to solve it by a larger value for "margin"? --Quest for Truth (talk) 14:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the CSS spec, it's not correct behavior: the line boxes are supposed to be shortened to make room for the margin box of the floated element, not the content box. Anomie⚔ 14:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

A Possible Solution by Sswonk
(od) Wrapping the image in the following solves the problem (most browsers, see below): &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; View the code applied to the original page revision #286270148 (with placeholder text added to eliminate white space) at User:Sswonk/CFF_test. It fixes the problem in all the browsers mentioned above and doesn't break IE8 or Opera. However, it doesn't move the text wrap as far away from the box in Camino or SeaMonkey, but those browsers use an earlier build of the Gecko engine than the current Firefox 3.0.10. IE7 still pushes the text down to align with the thumb, but that problem will only go away if the thumb itself is placed in the middle of the "Overview" section, as Edokter has since done making the current revision of the page. This isn't perfect as the white space around the thumb is variable depending on window width, but it does get the type away from the thumb box. Please try the solution to confirm and if we agree it works we can make a template similar to Fixbunching with a width parameter to solve this problem for other images/pages until a more permanent solution can be found. Sswonk (talk) 15:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So basically you add a 10px shim above the image so the overlapping text doesn't get that far? If someone has the font size cranked up in their browser it could still fail, I suppose. Anomie⚔ 22:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not really a shim in the carpentry sense because it isn't "solid" in the same way on all browsers. A shim would be something like a 416x10 pixel transparent rectangle, which would need to be a different width for any given thumbnail width spec. The code above is rendered with subtle variations on each of the tested browsers but still solves the issue even with default font sizes increased significantly. The div width is what controls how the text flows outside: set it to 46px instead of 416px and very different things happen. With the div at 46px on Firefox all the text overprints the thumb up to 46px from the right edge of the body, while on Safari the text widens in the same way but the thumb gets pushed far right so that only the leftmost 46px is still within the main body. It is a combination of the infobox, the thumb and this wrapper that gets rendered in different ways and that's why I ended up having to code it as shown, as a less than perfect compromise between Webkit and Gecko rendering that still works in IE and Opera. Sswonk (talk) 00:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I can get it to break in the same way easily enough, if I crank up the text size to 30px and manipulate the float's position as I described somewhere above. Not that it's terribly likely someone will be using that large a font size.
 * Firefox has it right in the 46px case with a right-floated image inside the div, BTW: "The left outer edge of a left-floating box may not be to the left of the left edge of its containing block. An analogous rule holds for right-floating elements." Even the text overprinting rather than disappearing behind the float is mentioned in the spec. Anomie⚔ 01:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You got the code to break with 30px fonts, what browser/platform are you testing on? When I say break I mean that the type doesn't flow around the image, as originally reported by Quest - I never saw that in any testing up to 36px fonts set in browser preferences. Sswonk (talk) 02:03, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Firefox (actually Iceweasel) 3.0.9 on Linux, with the browser window set to 800x600 (div#bodyContent ends up 604px wide). To make it easy, I used Firebug to adjust the bottom margin on the infobox, rather than having to continually edit the page. Here is a version that breaks for me without any manipulation. Of course, your results may vary depending on your specific fonts and such. Anomie⚔ 02:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, well of course that will never happen unless we have readers zooming single paragraphs with Firebug. I did all of my test zooming as a reader might either in Preferences > default font size or View > Zoom text only, both of which fail to break the float. I'd like to try making a template that parses the image parameters string to find the size and then automatically adds 16px and wraps the div w/txt buffer (shim), something like: so that all a user or automated process would need to do is put the existing image tag into the template. How does that sound? Sswonk (talk) 03:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It could happen, if the infobox ends up just the right height. Personally, the bug is minor enough that I think it doesn't need that much attention; it's just a minor overlapping. But if you want to make that template, go ahead. You'll probably have to pass the width as a separate parameter, somehow. Anomie⚔ 04:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * From my point of view, the problem is not minor. Although it's just a matter of "appearance", it can make the affected text difficult to read (when the text overlaps the image) or impossible to read without some "tricks" (when the image overlaps the text). BTW, in case readers set other font size, would it be better if the unit is in "em" instad of "px"? --Quest for Truth (talk) 08:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure about that one. I prefer em but it becomes relative since font magnification should increase the  s without disrupting the   width, which is what needs to stay constant along with the image, if that makes sense. Regarding a template, it takes a pretty complicated string manipulation workaround to extract the user specified width from the image link so I am leaning toward just having the width, i.e. 400px, entered manually as a second parameter and then having the template add 16px to the user entered value. Sswonk (talk) 17:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE re: Google Chrome: I just downloaded a pre-release build of Google Chrome for Intel Macs, useragent is Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_5_7; en-US) AppleWebKit/531.0 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/3.0.183 Safari/531.0. Testing the original revision 286270148 of the page does not display the text float issues addressed here. -- See note below --- Sswonk (talk) 12:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC) The current release of Safari is AppleWebKit/525.28.3, so this may well be an issue that future versions of these browsers will handle gracefully as does Opera. The latest Chromium for Intel Mac build can be found at http://build.chromium.org/buildbot/snapshots/sub-rel-mac/. Sswonk (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * For Chromium, no problems at window size >860px; the baseline touches the top border of the thumb below that width but unlike other other Webkit browsers text remains in front. Sswonk (talk) 12:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Another page which exhibits this sort of behavior is Statistics, but only on a wide (>1086px) window when the second line ("This page lists sources...") does not break and extends above the right side Wikistats navbox. A text crash occurs on Mac FF, Safari, Camino, SeaMonkey and Chromium but not Opera (uses a slightly larger default font). None of the browsers IE7, IE8, FF or SeaMonkey I have mentioned above exhibit this problem on Windows XP but I am using a 1024x768 display for XP. Sswonk (talk) 02:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Error from mwdumper
I'm trying to extract some pages from the May 20 article dump (enwiki-20090520-pages-articles.xml.bz2) using MWDumper and am getting an error after about a third of the file is processed. The command I'm using is

java -jar mwdumper.jar --output=file:selected.xml --format=xml --filter=list:selectlist.txt enwiki-20090520-pages-articles.xml.bz2

After processing about 1,430,000 pages, I get the following errors.

Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid contributor at org.mediawiki.importer.XmlDumpReader.closeContributor(Unknown Source) at org.mediawiki.importer.XmlDumpReader.endElement(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.AbstractSAXParser.endElement(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.parsers.AbstractXMLDocumentParser.emptyElement(Unknown Source) at org.apache.xerces.impl.XMLDocumentFragmentScannerImpl.scanStartElement(Unknown Source) ...

As far as I know, I am running the latest versions of mwdumper (mwdumper-2008-04-13.jar) and the Sun Java runtime (build 1.6.0_13-b03). I've confirmed the MD5 checksum for the dump file. I get the same error if I run the same command against an uncompressed copy of the dump. However, this same dump is read and scanned successfully to completion using the AWB database scanner tool. I've also processed earlier dumps (enwiki-20090306-pages-articles.xml) without problem.

Any ideas? Has anyone else encountered this problem? -- Tcncv (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * This is apparent result of "deleted" contributors in the dump file that MWDumper is not set up to handle. See bug 18328.  -- Tcncv (talk) 02:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Black British people
This top-level category, as well as its expected subcategories, also lists about 550 people who should be more effectively categorised by occupation, e.g. Category:Black British musicians. Any ideas on the easiest way of doing this automatically since it would be time-consuming to go through them manually? I'm thinking what has happened is that the main category and subcat are both applied, and it's just a case of removing the main if they coexist, and flagging for attention if they don't. Cheers. Rodhull andemu  14:13, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Would these 256 articles be a good start? - Jarry1250 (t, c) 16:19, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, didn't know about that tool, but I've started going through them with WP:HOTCAT and added several new subcats. I'll use it as a check when I've finished. Cheers. Rodhull  andemu  17:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird behavior when editing (part 2)
Following on from the previous discussion on this subject, I have eventually got some response from Microsoft Technical Support. The random scrolling behavoir was apparently caused by one or both of:

1. Random junk and settings left over from the update. To clear up this problem, Microsoft recommended resetting IE 8 using this procedure:

2. Not using Compatibility View mode to view pages that do not adhere to "standards". IE 8 is (supposedly) more standards compliant than previous versions. However, Microsoft know that some sites do not adhere to these standards (probably to get round the deficiencies in previous versions of IE, IMHO) and therefore created Compatibility View mode which effectively downgrades IE 8 to IE 7 for specified sites. IE 8 maintains a list of sites (which currently includes wikipedia.org) in <tt>C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iecompat.dll</tt> and uses this list to force Compatibility View mode to be used for the listed sites. Use of the list can be turned off by removing the tick on Tools -> Compatibility View Settings -> Include updated website lists from Microsoft, in which case a blue broken-page icon appears in the address bar when an incompatible page is encountered, and use of Compatibility View mode can be manually controlled.

Since resetting, cleaning of temporary files and in Compatibility View mode, the random scrolling has not occured again.

-

As for the inability to use the mouse to place the editing caret at the end of some lines in the edit textbox, I spent a long while on the phone discussing this problem with Microsoft Technical Support. According to what I was told, there are two situations:

1. When a single paragraph is word-wrapped to two or more lines, you cannot use the mouse to place the caret at the end of a wrapped line. Apparently, that behavoir is a normal function of word-wrapping and is "by design". TBH, I have a hard time believing that is normal since it does not occur in other Microsoft products such as Notepad or Word.

2. When one is unable to place the caret at the end of other lines, that is apparently a symptom of the coding on the page. I have experienced that particular problem when the line is the last line of text but is followed by a blank line, or when the line ends in a non-standard alpha-numeric character (eg. 2). TBH, I am unsure if this is an "feature" of IE 8, or really is something to do with the page coding.

At the moment, both situations when placing the caret are still present, irrespective of the Compatibility View setting. I think the problem is likely to stay with IE 8 until Microsoft recognise both situations as a bug.

Astronaut (talk) 17:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for following this up and for letting me know on my talk page. I never had the box Include updated website lists from Microsoft ticked here, but after reading your explanation, I ticked and unticked it, and the erratic text jumping seems to have disappeared. I'm still using the Wikipedia preferences of 132 columns for my edit box and IE8 not in Compatibility View. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * After reading such posts, I think it is good that I do not use IE.:) Ruslik_ Zero 07:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * (sigh)Well some of us know other browsers exist, but that is of limited use to the huge majority of computer users who use Internet Explorer and don't know how to change to use another (or can't change due to company policy, or can't change what is installed at the internet cafe/library). Astronaut (talk) 11:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

IE8, what… does that mean I can stop making IE7 jokes? — CharlotteWebb 10:58, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really, there's still lots of IE 7 installations out there. However, the whole lot could be copied to http://www.ie8.com/ and you could add some new IE 8 jokes.  Astronaut (talk) 11:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Over editing
I seem to have some sort of weird problem where extra edits are being made. For example here I only attempted to replace two words in the lead section ("most mountainous") with another ("smallest") yet other changes have occurred. Any ideas why this would be happening? I preview my edits before saving and it seemed okay. Pahari Sahib 17:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You may have edited an older version of the article and saved it over the most recent version; did you get an edit conflict while trying to save?  Skomorokh   17:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There was no edit conflict, it happened a couple of times before too, I tried to undo this edit just by clicking undo and press save. This was the result. I only noticed it when the next edit was made. Pahari Sahib  17:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * And it's happened again with this edit (can someone fix it please). I'm going to stop editing for the time being until someone can explain why this is happening. Pahari Sahib  18:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed your edit, but can't help with the problem. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks :-), I think I figured out when it is happening, it only happens when I edit articles with a lot of text but not with smaller articles or section edits (thus far). But I have no clue why - I will stick with these types of edits for the time being. Pahari Sahib  18:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Do the extra/unwanted changes show up when you use the "show preview" or "show changes" buttons? Astronaut (talk) 02:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No they don't Pahari Sahib  05:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Database query syntax error
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

(SQL query hidden)

from within function "Block::purgeExpired". MySQL returned error "1213: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; Try restarting transaction (10.0.6.26)". I just tried to block an IP and received the above error message. The block went through after a couple tries, but figured it was worth mentioning. -- auburn pilot  talk  19:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ooh, that's a new one! Database errors are not uncommon; the most frequent one is "lock wait timeout exceeded", when another thread has 'control' of part of the database and your thread times out waiting for it to finish.  Here it looks like you were the one with control over part of the database, but someone else came along and got control over another part of the database that you then needed; in order to prevent deadlock, the database bumps one of the threads and releases all its locks, allowing the other thread to finish.  Have a read here for more info.
 * It's an absolute pain that we can't customise the dberror message, so we can't explain what these things mean in plain english. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 19:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

link for admins to move pages with preloaded reason
If you close an WP:MFD, and you go to the page in question, and hit delete, it automatically fills in the reason for you. Likewise with WP:FFD; Template:ffd2 includes a "delete" link that automatically preloads a reason to delete. How would I create a similar sort of link for Moving pages? For instance, someone substitutes a template requesting a move, and the template comes with a link that preloads the move reason for the responding admin, making the admin's job that much easier. How do I code that?--Aervanath (talk) 20:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There's two parts to it. A link that prefills the reason just adds a wpReason parameter, like [ move] → [ move]. Additionally, there's some magic in MediaWiki:Sysop.js "Automatic deletion dropdown" so that this also works if you press the move tab at the top. It picks up an id and reason from the template (mfd in this case) and appends the wpReason parameter to the tab. HTH, Amalthea  20:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

double sort keys for categories
Templates need two sort keys in their noinclude cateogories.
 * i) the sort key for ignoring the "template:"... and
 * ii) the sort key for indicating a template which is done by setting " " at last.

Is this correct? And is this edit OK to do? Help:Category doesn't provide information about this. --Scriberius (talk) 20:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding ", {" to the end of the sortkey is pointless, as it will not have a noticeable effect in category listings. We need to set the explicit PAGENAME sortkey, yes, at least until  is fixed. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, ...but: "pointless"? — I though we could do something like that:  and so forth, e.g.   (page). This sub-sorting key works just fine in the given dependant cat. At least, the sorting with two sub-criterions (done by setting commas) is done in 100,000s biography articles to their categories  or am I misunderstanding you...? --Scriberius (talk) 09:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What adding a second criterion would achieve is to make Template:Foo sort after Foo if the two appeared in the same category. So if you sorted Template:Foo, Foo and FUD into the same category, the template would appear between the other two.  Which is not particularly helpful.  This is useful for, for instance, biographies, where having John Smith appear after Jane Smith but before John Smithe is exactly what we expect.  Usually we want to group all the templates that contribute to a category together, either at the top or bottom of the category listing.  A common sortkey would therefore be something like <tt>  </tt>, which adds a dot at the beginning of sortkeys for templates, bumping them to the top of the list.  Or you could use a curly brace to sort them all to the bottom of the list.  But it's not useful to 'identify' templates by adding a suffix to the sortkey, because that doesn't help you identify them in categories. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 10:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought that, according to Categorization (last item in the last bullet), the small Greek letter Tau (τ) is used as a leading character in the sort key for that purpose. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, tau could be used instead of the curly brace when sorting to the bottom of the list. The point is that it only has a noticeable effect when placed at the beginning of the sortkey. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Line height
In the Spanish Wikipedia technical village pump has been reported that references make the line height wider, it has been reported many times but apparently the administrators there "couldn't solve this problem". Also, I have notice that in this wikipedia this has been solved (compare this   with an example there). So, I wonder how did you solve this here? Locos ~ epraix Beaste~praix 01:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at a translation, I think you were discussing a line height issue. I suspect that it is is not just the references, but any superscripted characters. Somewhere in the CSS, we have a rule for  to balance this out; I just can't remember where this is located. ---—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 02:05, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In MediaWiki:Common.css, we have:


 * -- Tcncv (talk) 02:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. Locos ~ epraix Beaste~praix 03:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks- I did not have time to search for that last night. That rule does induce a problem with IE7, causing blank pages when printing. This was fixed with a rule in MediaWiki:Common.js:


 * ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

How to remove/delete tags?
I'm just wondering whether it is possible to remove a tag from a certain old version? and is it possible to delete a discarded tag from Special:Tags?—Ben.MQ (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See 18670 <b style="color:#c22">^</b><b style="color:#000">demon</b><sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz] <em style="font-size:10px;">14:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia interface modification (NICE) study
Hello. I am a researcher in the GroupLens lab at the University of Minnesota. As part of our work within Wikipedia, we are conducting a study in which we have developed an interface modification that is designed to help users work together more effectively. The interface modification makes a minor change to Wikipedia's interface for reverting other editors. If you wouldn't mind giving it a try, we'll be very interested in your feedback. See User:EpochFail/NICE. --EpochFail (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * TLDR: We have an interface modification that we'd like you to try. Go here: User:EpochFail/NICE. --EpochFail (talk) 20:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Our script is currently written in a way that requires us to host it under our domain, rather than on Wikipedia itself. Once installed, the script makes a modification to your user interface when you attempt to revert an edit via Wikipedia's "undo" facility. Much of the information we track (when an undo is done, the user performing the undo, the page being reverted, the user being reverted, etc) is the same kind of information that the Wikimedia Foundation makes publicly available in its data dumps. The only additional information we track is the time when an undo (and thus our tool) is loaded, even if the undo is ultimately not performed. While we do store your username, we do not store your IP address in our database. We have a privacy and security statement available on the install site that explains what we log, and who has access to that information. If you have any comments or concerns about this, please let us know. -PiperNigrum (talk) 01:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC) We have reworked things to try to address your concerns about the javascript tool and its installation.
 * Comment No disrespect intended to the study, but I think you need to provide a lot more detail as to what you are asking people to install. From what I can tell, your note involves loading a script from an off-Wiki site into a user's monobook, data from which would be accessed off-site. This raises serious concerns about privacy and security. --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  20:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I appreciate what you are trying to do, but that greatly concerns me as well. First of all, these scripts need to be placed entirely on Wikipedia so that people can watchlist them and pick up on any changes that are made. Otherwise you have de facto control of any accounts that use it, could even deliver different scripts to different poeple at different times with little chance of discovery. Second, I personally would never install a script like this which is directly able to connect my IP to my username, and then goes on to monitor my "undo attempts". If you are not content with the data you can get through the interface and really need to monitor "attempts", the data collection service would need to be running at some location I trust, and be only accessible by people I trust or who could get that information anyway. Lastly, is this in any way tied in with the current usability study, or is this a separate research project from your university? Amalthea  21:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. You raise several points we have not considered regarding the deployment of our tool.
 * As far as I can see, your script would just as well work if it were hosted here. You do the logging already by dynamically adding a script tag, not by making an Ajax call, presumably precisely to get around the single origin policy. If that's wrong, please point out what I'm missing.
 * You may have a privacy policy in place, but the ultimate issue here is one of trust. People don't know you or your institution, so why should they trust you? Especially since an off-site script indeed makes it possible to sneak in all kinds of things basically undetected.
 * Besides, I'm appalled by the fact that you offer to do automatic installations, asking for my Wikipedia username and password. Any site that asks me for my credentials for another site is highly suspect. Even if the JS that is run indeed does not report my password to you, as far as I can see, I'd never ever enter my Wikipedia password on any other site. (On technical note, does the auto-install feature even work? What about the single-origin policy? The script is loaded from your domain and then tries to make Ajax calls to the Wikipedia domain. That should fail.)
 * I also notice that you didn't answer Amalthea's last question. I don't think you'll see much use of this tool. Maybe if you could get the foundation to officially endorse this, but otherwise... no.
 * Personally, this is once more a case making me very glad to surf the internet with off-site scripts automatically turned off. (With the ability to selectively turn them on if I desire so.) Lupo 06:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lupo, you bring up a very key point in how the installation is done. You failed to note that there are two installation routes and that the manual route is option #1.  If you do not trust the University of Minnesota or us, you do not have to give our script your password.  If there are any direct concerns about the study and what information will be organized, the contact information for our institutional review board is included on the consent form.  We originally thought that we needed to host the script on our own machines in order to be able to serve different interface bits to different users in order to gather information on those interface changes independently.  We think we have found a way to still assign participants to groups without hosting the script here. In the mean time, we'll be working on that solution.  At that time, we'll re-post. --EpochFail (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, I did not miss the "manual installation". Lupo 21:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The javascript used by this tool has been moved to User:EpochFail/No_Biting.js so that it can be reviewed and have its changes monitored.
 * Since we will only be logging some of the actions of participants in order to evaluate the usefulness of the tool we have created, the risk to participants is very minimal.
 * This research is funded by the National Science Foundation and the University of Minnesota. This is not a commercial endeavor.  We hope that the result of a successful study will be another addition to the list of academic papers on Wikipedia, and if editors are interested, a new gadget available to them.
 * As far as the installation of the tool in an account, we feel that we are doing the best we can (given the circumstances) by providing two options for installing the tool and keeping the manual installation as the recommended option. With our privacy policy and full disclosure of risks and benefits, we and the University of Minnesota IRB believe that there is sufficient basis for people to make an informed decision.

EpochFail (talk) 16:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Here are some puzzles: (1) You say that we are conducting a study in which we have developed an interface modification that is designed to help users work together more effectively, but what you're providing doesn't actually help anyone work together; it's only a data collection tool.  (2) If you're testing whether or not the tool works (not clear), you don't need to make a mass call for volunteers; you just need a few students to test it simultaneously. (3) Given, as you say, that Much of the information we track (when an undo is done, the user performing the undo, the page being reverted, the user being reverted, etc) is the same kind of information that the Wikimedia Foundation makes publicly available in its data dumps; it's not at all clear how the additional information that you plan to gather is necessary.


 * Perhaps a better way to do this would be for you to actually provide the tool, at the same time asking those who use it to also install a (separate) logging script that is hosted on a Wikipedia page. That would give you the data that (I'm guessing) you're trying to assemble to show how valuable the tool is.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 18:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * (1): John, the tool actually does provide extra information to users and allow them extended functionality. If you are having trouble running the code please contact me and I'll be glad to help.  (2): we know the tool works in the most popular browsers using the gecko and webkit engines as well as IE6 and IE7.  (3): we are most interested in the effects that the tool will have on communication--ie. how the tool will effect people and their interactions. --EpochFail (talk) 19:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't you say anywhere just what that extended functionality is? I've read the javascript and so I know what it does; is secrecy crucial for the research somehow? Is the idea that your message will have less effect on a user who isn't suddenly surprised when he triggers it? Ntsimp (talk) 22:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The extended functionality involves a modification to the user interface when you attempt to revert an edit via Wikipedia's "undo" facility. A part of user interface research involves seeing if a change makes a difference in how a user performs certain tasks, and whether the change is intuitive to the user. Telling the user what the extended functionality is, and what it is used for would introduce bias to the study. -- PiperNigrum (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If your reluctance to be forthright about the functionality this script provides is motivated by a concern for "proper" measurement, your priorities are a bit off - your method of study has larger flaws that swamp the effect you're concerned for. First off, you don't have a control group (users who are logged but don't have the interface modification), so you aren't measuring against anything except your speculation about how users behave; that alone makes the numbers meaningless. Secondly, accurately evaluating the effects of the interface change requires observing user behavior, not logging the effects of user behavior; you log incidents where users with this script navigate away from certain actions, but you don't record whether this resulted from a "positive" (by your criteria) reaction to the interface, from an enormously negative reaction to the interface ("What's this shit?"), or from the fact that it was time to watch the evening news. Thirdly, you can't possibly log null data; if a user account stops triggering the logging, they might have had a positive behavior modification, a negative one (stopped editing, or stopped trying to revert), they might have learned to work around the script, they might have uninstalled it - or they might just not be very active just then. I can see the possibility that your basic modification might be useful to some, if they voluntarily installed it, but I don't see any positive benefit to the study or the logging. — Gavia immer (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the concerns you have raised, but I assure you that we have determined appropriate ways to measure significant effects despite them. As for the functionality of the interface, this is a research study where users will be put into groups.  Usually information is not shared between groups until the study has completed.  If you would like to participate in the study (by installing the tool), I'd be happy to share some additional information about the functionality of the tool for the group to which you are assigned. --EpochFail (talk) 15:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I can see what the tool does, thanks. — Gavia immer (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Amusing fact about Scientology and Wikipedia (Wikibomb)
Why does searching for "Scientology" on Wikipedia returns "Evil" as a result? How is that NPOV? I know Scientolgy doesn't have many friends on the Internet but that seems a bit over the line, and given that Scientology and some of it's detractors were recently banned from Wikipedia in the interest of neutrality this seems a bit incoherent... RUL3R (talk) 20:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Aparently people have repeatadly used scientology as an anchortext for evil (like this Scientology) in the main namespace and this is why it shows up in the search results. --rainman (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Should we consider this to be a subtle form of vandalism? If yes, how would we go about detecting instances for repair? --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 23:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would think this is vandalism. I have a maintenance tool that can track this down, just need to figure out a good way of making it public. In any case, I've fished it out, it was this occurance. Now we just need to wait for next index update (early morning GMT). --rainman (talk) 23:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Search engine optimization ? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 00:19, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Rather a Wikibomb. Amalthea  00:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Aptly coined, Amalthea. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 11:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are we really that susceptible to a single well-chosen piped link? Eek. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, since anchors used many time usually get eventually converted to redirects, search wants to pickup all the information from anchor texts (in main ns). --rainman (talk) 11:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Note: the link in question appears to have been in the very first revision of the article. I've notified User:CelticWonder, the article's creator, accordingly. -- The Anome (talk) 11:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I had identified a few 'wikibombs' in Wikipedia space too and was curious on their origin, for example WP:FAULT with first result Requests for arbitration/Giano, and WP:FAIL with fourth result Requests for adminship/Dihydrogen Monoxide 3. Cenarium (talk) 21:23, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Given the nature of that particular line I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to just take it out right away, which i did. (with some trepidation, since i have only a few edits in my name and it's a rather sensitive topic, I'd here by like to state for the record I not only have no affiliation with scientology in any way, I also carry quite a dislike for both organisation and philosophy. however, WP is supposed to be NPOV so childish jokes like that have no place here, in my opinion.) User:ThomasPolder (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2009 (CET)


 * You were certainly within your bounds as an editor. Your opinion is the correct one. Thanks for making the change.  hmwith  τ   20:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Help with script that uses setTimeout
Hi, I'm trying to write a script that selects random links on a page and creates a "slideshow" of them, by opening a new window and redirecting the window to each link in turn after waiting a certain time. Everything works great, except for the setTimeout part of the function. I've tried various ways to get this to work without success. In particular, the function called by setTimeout, namely timeoutRoutine, does not seem to have access to the global variables? Suggestions would be welcome — thanks! Proteins (talk) 15:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Finding historic GA numbers
The Good Articles project has a special statistics page showing the growth in the number of GAs. The problem is that after the number (Template:GA number) started being updated by a bot, it is difficult to find the number at a precise point in time, if you want to update the statistics retrospectively. Is there any way to find this number? Lampman (talk) 23:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless I'm missing something, you can just use the page history of Template:GA number]. You can browse by month and year using the form on that page. Graham 87 03:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually it no longer is updated by a bot but suing an expression, which makes it more difficult. Agathoclea (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ehm ok, what he just said... I'm not sure about the technical details, but as you can see from the history it hasn't been updated since March, even though several articles are added daily. Is there any way around this? Lampman (talk) 20:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No, there isn't any way around this other than to have an editor or a bot capture information off the page, periodically. I believe the same question recently arose regarding Special:Statistics, a more obvious case where no page history is available.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 21:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Allright, thanks anyway! Lampman (talk) 21:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible to convert API output to wikitable format ?
Is it possible (or, more precisely, is there someone much cleverer available to come up with a way) to convert this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=revisions&titles=Rorschach_test&rvprop=timestamp|user|comment&rvlimit=40&rvdiffto=prev

into a wikitable, i.e. all revisions with the details of each edit (and a diff link) per row ? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 01:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You're going to have to write a program to do that, <tt>getVersionHistoryTable</tt> in pywikipedia is a good start. MER-C 03:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Enable Special_talk.php
Special pages don't have talk pages, so right now it's not immediately clear where to discuss them. Per Bug 4078, an extension to create a Special Talk namespace and the corresponding tabs already exists. Let's enable it. Neon Merlin  02:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Location outside a map
At South African Airways Flight 295 there is a map of Africa showing Johannesburg and "Crash Site", which somehow is outside of the entire map. Tempshill (talk) 04:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless the coordinates of the "Crash Site" are inaccurate, that appears to be exactly what is supposed to happen. The two points are superimposed on the map using templates. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 04:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Categories above or below edit box in preview?
For preview, I use the option "Show preview before edit box". When previewing (in monobook skin), categories appear at the bottom of the page, below the edit box. Personally, I would expect them together with the article preview above the edit box. Is there a setting I can change? Is the current layout the generally expected one? -- User:Docu 07:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a bug. Or, if you will, it's a standard way of displaying categories (at the bottom of a page) that developers don't consider to be sufficiently confusing to justify the time and effort needed to change. And yes, this has been discussed before; sorry, can't provide links at the moment. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really care about viewing the categories (I can see them in wikitext), but it could be helpful to receive a warning when one of the categories added manually is a non-existing one (optional upon saving, e.g.). This way, one could skip pre-view. -- User:Docu 12 June 2009

Queries in Map and Image Creation

 * 1) Graphic_Lab/Image_workshop
 * 2) GL/MAP

Is these feasible ? --Naveenpf (talk) 13:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Can anyone help ? --Naveenpf 12:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Abuse Filter in Contributions
I thought it might be an idea to add the triggered abuse filter to the links when viewing contributions:

(talk | block | block log | logs | Abuse Filters triggered |Deleted contributions | User rights management)

at least for admins. But I could not find the mediawiki entry entry where I could add the link. Agathoclea (talk) 23:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Can't be done in a MediaWiki message, but it's already implemented in MediaWiki. Amalthea  23:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

MEA Scrubber - Technical Details
I wish to know the technical details like process schematic, equipments list etc.. for MEA(Mono-Ethanol-Amine) Scrubbing of Biogas for removal of Carbondioxide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.199.61.8 (talk) 07:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You should ask this question over at our helpful science reference desk. Franamax (talk) 07:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki pseudospaces definition for shortcuts feature.
Hello, where are the pseudospaces (such as WP:) define ?

Where is it defined that WP: =>

I really don't manage to get the answer, it is not a namespace, not an interwiki link, ... 

Thanks, --almaghi (talk) 09:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In the configuration: mw:Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases, . Amalthea  10:45, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --almaghi (talk) 14:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Edittools - More IE8 fun!
Yesterday, I (foolishly?) allowed Windows update to upgrade from IE7 to IE8, and now, the edittools at the bottom of the edit screen are showing strange behaviour when logged on. It is impossible to switch between the different menu pallettes (i.e. Insert, Wikimarkup, Symbols, Latin etc.), although the one that's displayed (currently Wikimarkup) seems to work OK. It works normally when logged out in IE8, and works fine in Firefox. Any fixes?Nigel Ish (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not observe the behaviour you describe, whether using IE8's Compatibility View or not. That you see different behaviour when not logged in seems to indicate an unintended side effect of your preferences. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It seem to be the Edit Toolbar that's causing the problems. When this is disabled, the edittools work.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bizarrley - the Edit toolbar is still there when I am logged off - and everything works! - User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish80.47.157.165 (talk) 10:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Its refTools that seems to be the problem.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Improvement in navigation pop-ups.
Hello sir/m'am,

I am new around here and one of the good samaritans showed me the basics through the chat. However, I found that the navigation pop-ups could be made better.

After enabling "My Preferences: Gadgets: Navigation Pop-ups", I saw that even if the link is too close to the bottom of the screen, the article-intro still pops up downwards, and it goes beyond readable screen. Same for the case when the link is too far to the right edge of the screen.

I suggest you should augment it such that it operates like the right-click in MS Windows - pops up when too close to the bottom and pops left when too close to the right. Pops down and right all the other times.

Thanking you...

AceFighter19 (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Popups are documented at Tools/Navigation popups. Please see Tools/Navigation popups/FAQ. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 03:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bypassing the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist
This is probably an extremely stupid question that I should be killed for asking... but really. I run a bot,, which detects copyright violations in Articles for Creation submissions, and logs them at User:EarwigBot II/Logs. Sometimes, it will get hung up when one of the URLs it is attempting to add is in the MediaWiki spam blacklist, and it can't make the save. The obvious solution is to have it skip the URL, which I have implemented, but I'm concerned that one day it will result in the bot being unable to find another URL for that submission, effectively resulting in a blank report. I'm almost certain that it is impossible to bypass the spam blacklist, but if it is, how do you go about doing it? If not, does anyone have any suggestions on a way to get around this without producing the dire scenario outlined above? Thanks, The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 01:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You should be able to save the link text if you surround it with  tags; that won't produce a working link, but should be fine for logging this kind of information. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Seems like it would be far easier to simply make approved bots immune to the blacklist. — CharlotteWebb 09:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A major problem with that fix is that once the bot has added that URL to the page, no other user can edit the page without removing the external link, which is clearly an issue. (Also, Extension:SpamBlacklist doesn't have an override permission, so it would require modification to the extension.) <b style="color:#FF0000;">haz</b> (talk) 16:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That could be fixed by getting the software to recognize whether the user editing the page added the link, or did not touch it at all. Besides, in the context of my bot, no one would need to edit the log page, because the bot updates it by itself. Both of these are great suggestions, in my own opinion, thanks! The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 16:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I know you can still add plain text links, i.e. without http:// . --Erwin (talk) 19:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Your information is out of date, Extension:SpamBlacklist already only triggers on newly-added links. Unless Wikipedia is using a version other than the one in SVN, anyway. Anomie⚔ 01:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. It only triggers for link additions. The problem is that things like archive bots seem like they're doing link additions. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:37, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This dilemma supports my suggestion that approved bots should be immune to the blacklist, as should any user determined not to be a link-spammer. I could express similar views about the title-blacklist and users determined not to be page-move vandals, but I'd probably be talking to the hand. — CharlotteWebb 17:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Tiny Issue
The details of IP shorthand confuse me; could the U.S. Senate IP range on MediaWiki:Blockiptext be expressed more simply as "156.33.0.0/16"? —<b style="color:#002BB8">Animum</b> (talk) 01:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it could. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 02:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

"What links here" peculiarity
Could anybody tell me if this peculiarity is intentional or a bug: Footnote 2 in the Bloodletting page links to the Elsimar M. Coutinho page. However, if I press the What links here link on the Elsimar M. Coutinho page, the bloodletting page does NOT show up in the list. If this is intentional, why? Thanks. Power.corrupts (talk) 08:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is because it is formatted as an external link. It would be listed in whatlinkshere if you changed it from <tt> Elsimar M. Coutinho </tt> to <tt> Elsimar M. Coutinho </tt>. Probably better to just add something like <tt> </tt> below the paragraph rather than formatting it as a ref (as we don't want to imply that one article is cited as a source for the other). — CharlotteWebb 09:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks. Sort of embarassing that I didn't see that myself (blush). And you are right, self-referencing is to be avoided - in fact, there seems no reason at all for that link, so I have removed it. thanks again. Power.corrupts (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

how to define a style sheet for just one page?
I would like to add css specific only to one page. I would like to know how I can do that? I can't find anything on that. I see how to add css for just me (user css). Specifically, I am trying to set up a table where all the td's have one color, and the first column and row have another. To do it inline, I would have to specify css for every cell.

Basically, I was to do something like this: <style type="text/css"> td { background-color: #ffffc0; } th { background-color: lightsteelblue; font-weight: bold; }

I only want it to apply to one table in one page, but for everyone that sees it. Is there a way to do this? --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk 08:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, there isn't any way to do that (besides, as you noted, inline CSS on every cell). Anomie⚔ 15:00, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this true for all wikis (vanilla - no mods)? I realize that this might be a problem for wikipedia, but is there a way to do this on other wikis?  I was wondering if there is some configurable option that allows it in other wikis.  (and is this the right place to ask about wikis in general?). --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk  16:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * guess this means it is a NO. --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk  20:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Reference tags do not work in article:Warped Passages
Hopefully this is the right place to address this issue. The reference tags do not work for this article Warped Passages. If this is not the appropriate place for this issue, please remove it to the correct area. Ti-30X (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added - I fixed it. – ukexpat (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 18:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Image layout problem
I'm having an image layout problem here. Is there someone in the house with good layout skills that can get the images in that article to line up appropriately in Firefox and various flavors of IE? (See the talk page for details.) Thanks!  Magic ♪piano 19:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind, we figured it out.  Magic ♪piano 23:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

"What links here", when links are from a template
I moved a page. A very large number of pages link to it by using a template that links to it. After the page move, they link to the new redirect page. I edited the template to link to the new title. Then I clicked on "what links here" on the page that was moved. The information is not up to date until many hours later, apparently. I can force this to update earlier by doing a null edit to all of the pages with such links (in fact I think I've done that a half-dozen-or-so times) but that takes a while when the number of such links is large&mdash;e.g. imagine a couple of hundred.

Is there a way to speed that up? What are computers for, after all?

(I posted this inquiry a few days ago. Unfortunately I mentioned my reasons for wanting the information.  The ensuing discussion was about that rather than about my question.  So I'm omitting that information this time.) Michael Hardy (talk) 01:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See mw:Manual:Job_queue. Stats viewable at Special:Statistics. --Splarka (rant) 07:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

On the Cite page for any article, "Date Retrieved" shows the same date as "Date of last revision"
I've noticed that on the Cite page for any article, the "Date Retrieved" entry shows the same date as the "Date of last revision" entry. This seems to be a change, since my recollection is that the "Date Retrieved" used to display the date that the user actually accessed the link.

The result is that the citations all display incorrect values for "Accessed on" or "Retrieved on".

Is this date coincidence intentional...or a bug?

--WDHollings (talk) 20:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not a coincidence, it's MediaWiki:Cite text. I was considering changing that, but as far I can tell from the history, it's always been that way. Anyone know why? It could be done the way you'd think it would work...Someguy1221 (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Movefile
Are admins still able to move images? If not, why? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  04:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Not right now, there were some technical issues with it. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  05:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Automated Access to Wikipedia data / Wikipedia API
I would like to access Wikipedia's data from a (python) script. I know that you guys frown on directly accessing using stadard http from a script, so do you have a preferred method? Is there a standard API I can use to access data from a script? I'm surprised that after googling for a while, I could not find any reference to one.

I don't want to create an edit-bot, simply analyze history data. Specifically, I would like to create an ANNOTATE/BLAME script that would find out who wrote a specific passage in a Wikipedia article. I believe that this would help make the encyclopedia better. Thank you, Sligocki (talk) 09:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you aware of the MediaWiki API that you can access at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php? This is an interface that you can use to get data about pages using certain queries in the URL. For example, the query http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=revisions&titles=Main%20Page&rvlimit=5&rvprop=content|user will give you the content of the last five revisions to the Main page, as well as the user that made the change. Full documentation is available at API. In Python, you can get your script to understand this by asking for the API to return data in JSON. The above query, in Python, could be written as:


 * I hope that helps! Regards, The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 10:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, great, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Mr. Earwig! Sligocki (talk) 10:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There is already a WikiBlame tool, but it doesn't do annotation. You might also be interested in the Toolserver, which allows you to do SQL queries on the live database. Graham 87 11:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Last I heard the toolserver database does not give access to the article text, though. Anomie⚔ 12:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link to WikiBlame! Looks good, though it seems a little slow as it seems to request each revision separately. I'll look into it. Sligocki (talk) 01:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Note that if you are going to be doing a lot of queries, you may want to use a more robust client to get the data - Creating a bot has some advice and frameworks in different languages. Mr.Z-man 16:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like that is mostly about writing bots that actually make edits. But I'll look into it, thanks. Sligocki (talk) 01:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're using the API, there's little difference between editing and getting data, except for logging in and edits need to be done with a POST. The main reasons you would want to use a real framework are for error handling, abstracting out some of the repetitive things, and if you're getting page text, some clients may support requesting gzipped data, saving bandwidth. Mr.Z-man 02:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Searching reference desk
Searching for keyword "undelete" in the Reference desk archives returns 6809 results. And all of them match the same string "ifeq: | Special:Undelete | | ifeq: | Wikipedia | switch: | | Archive". Obviously some meta text is getting matched and not really content of the ref desk posts. This problem was highlighted in an ongoing discussion at the computing ref desk.

Is it possible to avoid such text during a search? Jay (talk) 09:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That is coming from the header markup on each archive page. I don't know why that was not done as a template, but I don't see any way around it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 11:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Textbrowser
I am puzzled by the following statement:


 * Your browser is not Unicode compliant. This may cause some problems displaying particular letters and symbols. For information on what you might be able to do about this, see:
 * Multilingual support
 * To work around this problem, non-ASCII characters will appear in the edit box below as hexadecimal codes.

I am using 'lynx' version 2.8.6, and there is a lot of Unicode-stuff going on in divers options in the browser. More importantly, unicode chars are rendered with no problem whatsoever. I am not competent to say that this browser is 'Unicode compliant', but it is a (non-technical) fact that it renders unicode.

But, this is not of very much use if all I get to edit is a bunch of hexadecimals. Especially that last sentence 'To work around this problem..' gets to have a peculiar sense in my current situation. I hope that there might be a workaround. A mysterious case is it, that the browser 'links' version 2.2, which is not - in any known sense - unicode compliant, does not trigger the above-mentioned warning. Sechinsic (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Reading the above, I think you're saying that you're getting this warning even though you have no problems with Unicode; thus the issue is the accuracy of the warning. If that's not correct - if in fact you are having problems with viewing (some) Unicode at Wikipedia, it would be helpful if you provided specific examples.  And stated the operating system that you are using.  -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 16:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, more formal speaking ; I have two issues


 * The warning is incorrect . Lynx_(web_browser) show unicode chars, like 你好 or 'øen Sjælland' or 'Zweckmäßigkeit', but nevertheless trigger the warning . Links_(browser) can manage some chars, but cannot out-of-the-box show for instance Chinese, and that browser does not trigger the warning.
 * The conversion of chars to hexadecimal is not convenient when editing . Of course, Links_(browser) does get the real text, except when the real text contain some chars like for instance Chinese charactersigns . (Real text as in readable text . Links_(browser) use a very big 'blotch' for chars such as 汉子)
 * Sechinsic (talk) 17:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have though hex char codes would be easier to deal with than large blotches. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 08:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not unless you have a very good memory . The blotches can be converted by iconv, whereas the hex codes has to be text-parsed . Or memorized . Actually the circumstance wherein the blotches appear is more of an issue, but conclusively an issue pertaining to the Links_(browser).
 * Browsing Bugzilla :
 * bug 2676/(RESOLVED) seem to have implemented the char conversion . The implementation is conclusively reliant on detecting the User agent, which is perhaps not a good idea . Ref. Browser Detection and Cross Browser Support
 * bug 3401/(UNRESOLVED) has been alive since 2005, and cover the issue I have, but not the issue that the MediaWiki software has, via its reliance on browser detection - se above #1.
 * Sechinsic (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Workaround
Client-side workaround for (Lynx/)external editor uploaded to bug 3401/(UNRESOLVED) Sechinsic (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem, as I understand it, is not with browsers that cannot render Unicode characters. It's that some browsers have an unfortunate habit of mangling Unicode characters into something else. The comment in the codebase (Editpage::makeSafe) is "A number of web browsers are known to corrupt non-ASCII characters in a UTF-8 text editing environment..." The armouring process is intended to prevent editors from corrupting the unicode content of the entire page when making edits. AFAIK, anyway. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 08:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As for the server side 'corruption of chars' issue, that might well actually exist, I cannot comment and have no access to, information on that subject . Except for the fact that I myself have corrupted a page one time on the Danish wikipedia . That session was obtained with links (web browser) . The session did not trigger any warning.

The conversion of chars to hexadecimal is not convenient when editing . Of course, Links_(browser) does get the real text, except when the real text contain some chars like for instance Chinese charactersigns. (Real text as in readable text . Links_(browser) use a very big 'blotch' for chars such as 汉子) , but cannot render some chars like for instance 汉子, and use a very big 'blotch' instead. Sechinsic (talk) 13:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Change font color of a #'d list?
How does one change the font color of the numbers in a
 * 1) Numbered
 * 2) List? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 20:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite a nifty method is


 * something
 * like this... <b style="color:#FF0000;">haz</b> (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Perfect, thanks ! –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 20:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL, nifty, but a really gross hack! :) And HtmlTidy might of course change its behavior there at some point in the future, I wouldn't use that in article space. Amalthea  08:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Eww…………… I should repeat my previous rant about needing some way to specify CSS attributes for lists and list-items without resorting to raw html (which gets ugly after about the second nested sub-list). — CharlotteWebb 07:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

can't download articles as PDF
I tried to download an article as a PDF and got a "POST request failed" error. I checked Special:Book (which was where the "PDF version" link took me) and was told that this feature is currently disabled. Shouldn't we remove the "PDF version" link or something? --Ixfd64 (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bug submitted as bug 19167 http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19167 .  Gl ac ier   Wo lf   00:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"PDF version" option not working
I'm not sure if this has been reported previously, or whether it is an old problem, but someone on WP:AN reported an error when trying to retrieve a PDF version of a specific article The same problem has been reported on the Help Desk  and I have been unable to successfully get a PDF of any of the pages I have just tried (including this page). The error is

POST request failed From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search

The POST request to http://pdf1.wikimedia.org:8080/mw-serve/ failed (Operation timed out after 3000 milliseconds with 0 bytes received).

Return to Main Page.

It looks like this has been mentioned a couple of places elsewhere in relation to the Books extension, but I haven't found any solutions so far, and am at a bit of a loss as to where (or whether) to look at Mediawiki.org -- Kateshort forbob  23:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (e/c) seems to be the same problem now reported above -- Kateshort forbob  23:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bug submitted as bug 19167 http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19167 .  Gl ac ier   Wo lf   00:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Can see contents of deleted page
Odd, for deleted MediaWiki:Helppage, I can see its contents, (but not its history). Jidanni (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not the deleted content, it's the current (default) content. Deleting a system message restores the MediaWiki default settings. Algebraist 23:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * To elaborate, if a MediaWiki page does not exist the default text is used. That is what you see there.  Once a MediaWiki page is created, the default text is overwritten with whatever you create the page with. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Image is borked.
Hi there, this image displays fine on its page, but the reduced size version in Weir is garbled. I'm not sure how to fix it, so figured I should get someone's attention about it. - LafinJack (talk) 01:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed now (here at least). Algebraist 01:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Safari 4.0
Anyone else having problem with the edit window now, after upgrading to Safari 4.0 on a Mac? Instead of the drop-down menu with the various types of wiki markup that are clickable to insert in the edit window, I'm just getting the full list of them in a single view and non-clickable. Really a royal pain to have to type in all that coding by hand ...


 * I don't know what the problem is, but this is called MediaWiki:Edittools; as on the talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 11:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Brazilian
When I look at Japanese Brazilian, I see that the "New life in Brazil" heading has no [edit] link next to it, and the "Japanese Immigration to Brazil by Period" table overlaps the "New life in Brazil" paragraph. Also the "Notable persons" heading is indented due to the images above it. Are these easily fixed? I'm using Firefox. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 03:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The link is there, but displaced. See WP:Bunch or just -. --Splarka (rant) 07:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is Mike Sacks listed in Category:Writers without having a category entry for that?
He doesn't have a template either. Any explanation? Thank you. --Berny68 (talk) 08:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Category changes don't immediately propagate, it can take a bit to see changes. But oddly enough, I just used action=purge on the category page and Mike Sacks went from the section M to P, per your defaultsort change, so it does think he is still in that category. Huh. --Splarka (rant) 09:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Same thing with "Bob Preedy", and while we're here, isn't Category:Writers/Hendrik Pretorius]] a violation of WP:NOTMYSPACE? -- &oelig; &trade; 10:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I disabled the categories for User:Braxtonuniversity/Hendrik Pretorius and added info in his discussion page, which is full with violation discussion already. That user page was really categorized and entry is now gone in Category:Writers. So it's not related to the technical issue here. --Berny68 (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have just manually looked through all the Mike Sacks history and found, it's never been in Category:Writers!! It used to be in the non-existing category Category:Writer (without the "s") though, just got removed from there a few hours ago. Could that be related to the behaviour? However then you would think that all the others in Category:Writer should be found in Category:Writers, which is not the case. --Berny68 (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahhh! That's why! They're both in Category:Authors and guess what, that redirects to Category:Writers. So issue is solved now. Thank you for your help. --Berny68 (talk) 11:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical order
I'm sure I'm not the first person to notice this, but it can't be right (can it?) that Special:PrefixIndex/Filem omits pages beginning FileM. Or as explained at Help:Alphabetic order, that spaces in article names are treated as underscores, coming after capital letters but before small letters. (Thankfully it seems that doesn't happen in category sort keys any more, though it's still pretty stupid that a comes after Z there.) Presumably there's a bug report or something to get these things fixed?--Kotniski (talk) 10:40, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Special:PrefixIndex lists pages that begin with a certain prefix, as you would expect. Special:PrefixIndex/Filem will list pages beginning with the string "Filem".  As such, it is entirely to be expected that pages beginning with "FileM" will not be included, because "M" is not the same as "m".  Page titles are stored in the database with spaces replaced by underscores; as such it is impossible for the software to recognise any semantic difference between "Foo bar" and "Foo_bar" in many cases. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know that's what happens, but it's hardly what users are going to expect. If no-one's planning on changing this behaviour, there should at least be a notice on Special:AllPages and Special:PrefixIndex (I don't know if it applies to any other pages) warning people about the case sensitivity and the unexpected treatment of spaces.--Kotniski (talk) 13:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

SUL and password changes
Having SUL, do I need to change passwords for different projects individually, or just the main one? bd2412 T 04:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am being told just the one. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  05:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, with SUL enabled it is no longer possible to have different passwords on different projects. This basically means if one account gets hacked, they all do. — CharlotteWebb 07:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A more positive way of looking at it is that you only have to change your password once. :P EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 21:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

moved page to correct title - but the search doesn't seem to find the new page
I was looking at an article talk page: Talk:Electromagnetic_therapy_(alternative_medicine). I went to read the archive, and the link went to Talk:Electromagnetic therapy/Archive 1 I went to add a search of the talk page and archives, and realized that in order for it to work, and for consistency, that the archives should have the same name as the original talk page. However, I didn't know where the original archive was, so I went through the history, and saw that MastCell had archived the talk page to Talk:Electromagnetic therapy/Archive 1 on March 24, 2008. So, I moved Talk:Electromagnetic therapy/Archive 1 to Talk:Electromagnetic_therapy_(alternative_medicine)/Archive_1. Then, added the search  However, I ended up taking out the search archives, because it didn't seem to find anything in the new archive (that I knew was there). So, I figured, it would take a day to get the new page into the search index (I'm assuming that Wikipedia has a search index that is updated at regular intervals due to a time lag I've noticed in the past between updating the article and being able to find that particular update through the search). But, it has been what would normally be more than enough time, and I still can't find text in the new archive with the search function. It keeps finding the old archive. Which means the search of the archives which assumes a prefix of the article talk page name won't work. How do I get the new archive indexed so that the search finds it? --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk 00:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * well, I guess it just takes longer to index a moved page. The search seems to be picking up the right archive now.  :) --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk  20:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It probably needed a null edit. --NE2 21:09, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I did a standard page move, so I assume that a null edit would be part of this from the description (from null edit: When a page is moved or protected, the summary will be saved, along with a null edit.) --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk 21:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you move the archive before or after the main page? --NE2 12:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is fixed now, no? --rainman (talk) 16:30, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * yes, the search seems to pick it up now. I added the  back in.  was it a bug?  or just a matter of time for the archive to get indexed?  --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk  20:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Article edit count tool
Does anyone know about a tool which has a full list of all the articles that you have edited. The best one that I could find was this one, but it only shows the top 100 edited articles. De Mattia (talk) 01:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You've only edited 63 articles total, so I don't see the problem. Anyway, if you're on Windows, you can download AWB and make a list from your user contributions. --NE2 01:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how and AWB works. Isn't there a website like the one I mentioned above? De Mattia (talk) 07:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it matter? That website gives you all 63 articles you've edited. --NE2 11:04, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To get a list of articles you've created, you can either use this tool or this tool (partially in French). Graham 87 11:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't mind me. :-) "Articles edited", not "articles created". This tool can be (ab)used to find the articles you've edited by putting the same name in the first two username fields. Graham 87 11:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have tried it and it seems to work; it shows all 75 articles that I have edited. Does it have a limit;as in, does it stop after 100 or another number (like above) or does it just keep on going? De Mattia (talk) 00:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It went up to 5,000 for my edits to the article namespace, then I stopped it because the resulting page was getting so big that it caused my computer to crash. Graham 87 08:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a feature or a bug really, just a side effect of how it works. BJ Talk 02:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Summary
For some reason, the system is changing the second open-angle-bracket (&lt;) in this message into a &amp;lt; entity, making the text above the edit summary box appear silly. Any reason why this might be? Stifle (talk) 08:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We just had a scap (after three months and >2500 revisions!). Try changing it to wikitext. See bug 19200. MER-C 09:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki:Subject, MediaWiki:Summary-preview and MediaWiki:Subject-preview also affected. MER-C 09:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The bug has been WONTFIXed, and it looks like MediaWiki:Summary has been changed to wikitext. What's wrong with the other three? Stifle (talk) 14:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing, just they were also affected by that revision and are also now wikitext. MER-C 05:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

This is somewhat unfortunate for people who depend on the "edit summary" link having <tt>target="_new"</tt>. That is, if they are using a defective web browser and risk losing any would-be edits by accidentally clicking in the wrong spot. In that regard there is a javascript gadget which may help. — CharlotteWebb 16:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Image upload buggy?
Hello all,

I'm trying to upload an image. I used the other (on the second try) and US Government (on the first try) upload subpages and inputted my information template and a license. However on the image pages themselves, no information template or license shows; however the images do or do not depending on when the page is loaded. See here (for the first try) and here (for the second try). - Thanks, Hoshie 09:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no clue what happened, as you obviously entered the information, based on the comment in the file history section. I simply copied the comment, edited the page and pasted it in. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW— the image still needs a license. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We just had a software update, and the servers had a bit of trouble swallowing it. Other affected images:


 * File:Church 2.jpg
 * File:St. Theresa of Lisieux Church 2.jpg
 * File:Soft Solutions Ltd Logo.png


 * Everything else uploaded since then seems fine. MER-C 10:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for both of you for your help on this. A license has been added to the first attempt. - Thanks, Hoshie 10:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki internal error
I am getting the following MediaWiki internal error when I try and edit Irène Schweizer: MediaWiki internal error. Original exception: exception 'AFPUserVisibleException' with message '&lt;abusefilter-exception-regexfailure&gt;' in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.parser.php:1604 Stack trace:
 * 1) 0 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(1075): AbuseFilterParser::regexErrorHandler(2048, 'Only variables ...', '/usr/local/apac...', 1075, Array)
 * 2) 1 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(801): memcached->_flush_read_buffer(Resource id #195)
 * 3) 2 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(413): memcached->get_sock('enwiki:abusefil...')
 * 4) 3 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.class.php(469): memcached->get('enwiki:abusefil...')
 * 5) 4 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.class.php(448): AbuseFilter::recordProfilingResult('81', 0.015965938568115)
 * 6) 5 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.class.php(398): AbuseFilter::checkFilter(Object(stdClass), Object(AbuseFilterVariableHolder), true)
 * 7) 6 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.class.php(673): AbuseFilter::checkAllFilters(Object(AbuseFilterVariableHolder))
 * 8) 7 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.hooks.php(37): AbuseFilter::filterAction(Object(AbuseFilterVariableHolder), Object(Title))
 * 9) 8 [internal function]: AbuseFilterHooks::onEditFilterMerged(Object(EditPage), '{{Infobox music...', '', 'space')
 * 10) 9 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Hooks.php(132): call_user_func_array(Array, Array)
 * 11) 10 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/EditPage.php(956): wfRunHooks('EditFilterMerge...', Array)
 * 12) 11 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/EditPage.php(2503): EditPage->internalAttemptSave(false, false)
 * 13) 12 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/EditPage.php(449): EditPage->attemptSave
 * 14) 13 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/EditPage.php(340): EditPage->edit
 * 15) 14 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Wiki.php(520): EditPage->submit
 * 16) 15 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Wiki.php(66): MediaWiki->performAction(Object(OutputPage), Object(Article), Object(Title), Object(User), Object(WebRequest))
 * 17) 16 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/index.php(116): MediaWiki->initialize(Object(Title), Object(Article), Object(OutputPage), Object(User), Object(WebRequest))
 * 18) 17 /usr/local/apache/common-local/live-1.5/index.php(3): require('/usr/local/apac...')
 * 19) 18 {main}

Exception caught inside exception handler: exception 'AFPUserVisibleException' with message '&lt;abusefilter-exception-regexfailure&gt;' in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/AbuseFilter/AbuseFilter.parser.php:1604 Stack trace: Any help would be appreciated. --Bruce1ee{{sup|talk}} 11:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) 0 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(1075): AbuseFilterParser::regexErrorHandler(2048, 'Only variables ...', '/usr/local/apac...', 1075, Array)
 * 2) 1 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(801): memcached->_flush_read_buffer(Resource id #178)
 * 3) 2 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/memcached-client.php(413): memcached->get_sock('enwiki:gadgets-...')
 * 4) 3 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/Gadgets/Gadgets.php(79): memcached->get('enwiki:gadgets-...')
 * 5) 4 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/Gadgets/Gadgets.php(55): wfLoadGadgetsStructured
 * 6) 5 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/extensions/Gadgets/Gadgets.php(171): wfLoadGadgets
 * 7) 6 [internal function]: wfGadgetsBeforePageDisplay(Object(OutputPage), Object(SkinMonoBook))
 * 8) 7 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Hooks.php(132): call_user_func_array('wfGadgetsBefore...', Array)
 * 9) 8 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/OutputPage.php(1011): wfRunHooks('BeforePageDispl...', Array)
 * 10) 9 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Exception.php(159): OutputPage->output
 * 11) 10 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Exception.php(186): MWException->reportHTML
 * 12) 11 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Exception.php(284): MWException->report
 * 13) 12 /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Exception.php(343): wfReportException(Object(AFPUserVisibleException))
 * 14) 13 [internal function]: wfExceptionHandler(Object(AFPUserVisibleException))
 * 15) 14 {main}
 * As you were. It's working now. Thanks. --Bruce1ee{{sup|talk}} 11:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Sharedupload
Is there a reason why this pages's functions appear to have been taken over by MediaWiki:Sharedupload-desc-here?Geni 17:22, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * (Now that I've figured out how to search the SVN :p) this was added in rev:48951 which also adds a sharedupload-desc-there. Couldn't guess the reason for this, doubt these would be used on the same project. — CharlotteWebb 17:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you search SVN?!? :D I use the filesearch in Eclipse to find the line, then the code annotations on SVN to find the author and revision; it's a real pain. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Easy, just register a Gmail account, subscribe to [MediaWiki-CVS] for a couple years, and use the built-in search. — CharlotteWebb 21:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Saving PART of wikipedia as (hopefully searchable) html
Hey people. I am new to wiki community, and I have little idea how this discussion medium works and wha't appropriate, so forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place and in the wrong way.

I would like to download only one category (namely health) as HTML (or something appropriate) for offline use as a medical refrence on my PDA. I suppose there are several parts to this question:

Firstly, is it possible to download a category, including ALL sub categories and ALL individual articles in those categories (probably tens of thousands of articles, that's fine with me)? Images aren't necessary, nor is talk, discussion or page history...just the raw text of current revision is fine.

Second, if such a thing were possible, is HTML the best way, or XML and some sort of XML interpreter for my PDA? or something else entirely (txt files?)

Third, What would be involved in making such a thing searchable? Would that require all kinds of fancy scripts?

Lastly, but not leastly, what is the answer to the universe, besides 42?

Thanks all.

Sscheinfe (talk) 18:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)sscheinfe 6/15/09 14:29 EST


 * Hi. I know that you can export pages using the Special:Export feature. You can ask for the database to export an entire category of pages, and it will save them as XML files. However, I do not know how you would go about making your PDA understand them, because I obviously do not know what PDA you're using, and how it works. The output from the exports looks something like this, by the way. Regards, The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 18:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I tried that, and added multiple pages in the list box, and I got something that looks like that, but the file was tiny (less than a MB) with little content. I was expecting hundreds of megabytes. Unless I did something wrong...Sscheinfe (talk) 18:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)sscheinfe 6/15/09 14:54 EST


 * It doesn't traverse subcategories and is limited to no more than 1000 items at a time. Exporting Category:Health should have given you the wikicode for 150 pages or so.  Getting everything that way would presumably take a long time.  You could also work from a full dump of wikipedia (hundreds of GB), but that's not necessarily easier.  I'm not aware of any easy way to do what you are asking, though I can see how it might be useful.  Dragons flight (talk) 19:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The database really doesn't contain as much information as you think it does. For example, the entire Wikipedia database, including all talk pages, user pages, images, and articles is only 9.2GB. A small portion of it in plain text, without images or anything special, will hardly be over one MB. Also, did you remember to do the search recursively? The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 19:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Mmm. Yeah, I downloaded the full XML dump of current revisions, about 2 gigs. Not quite sure what to do with it though besides marveling how cool it is to have the whole world in one file.  I'll have to research it a bit.  Wonder if I can restructure it by category, or perhaps it already is so, what do I even know.  I'll have to educate myself a bit.  The exported file was 540K, so perhaps that was 150 articles, I don't know...will try to figure this all out.   Sscheinfe(talk) 18:31, 15 June 2009 (UTC)sscheinfe 6/15/09 16:13 EST  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.185.213 (talk)

Whitespace
With the recent MediaWiki update, I'm guessing that that's the source of all the extra whitespace between the cactions and page title. I think that it looks pretty bad, personally. Is there any way that that could be changed back (it could be my user CSS, actually, acting up since the MediaWiki update. If other people aren't seeing this I'll check all of my code). Thanks! –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Hyperlink problem with closing bracket
This may be a problem that is confined to Apple's email software Mail. If I try to insert into an email a URL that ends in a closed bracket ")" such as the URL for Wikipedia:Village pump (technical), Apple Mail automatically generates a hyperlink (underlining) that doesn't include the final bracket. Any Mac users out there with a solution to this problem? Wardsislander (talk) 22:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You can always encode special characters in a URL. %20 is a space. I forget what ) is. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 23:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ")" is %29 so the url can be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical%29. See Help:URL. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29 to make it look less like it is missing something. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 00:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestions, all of which provide a workaround. I also discovered that simply adding an 'underscore' at the end http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)_ forced Apple Mail to extend its hyperlink to include the final bracket.   Wardsislander (talk) 02:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I found a user with an uneditable talkpage
User talk:龗 right now brings up an error message that resembles the one which appears when you try to load a diff on a deleted page. (For comparison, see the recently deleted page here). Oddly, it is possible to click Edit and the code of the error message will appear in the edit window. However, trying to save any edit will produce an edit conflict, and automated tools such as Twinkle do nothing. Thus this user's talkpage seemingly cannot be edited. I imagine this will become a problem for this user sooner or later. I wonder if it might have something to do with the unusual username (which means "Chinese dragon", see zh:龗), although we have had many editors with Chinese usernames in the past and I have never heard of problems like this. I am bringing this up here in the hope that someone here can discover the cause of the problem and fix it. <B>Soap</B> Talk/Contributions 23:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Not a solution, but for anyone who is curious (I was) - 龗 at Wiktionary <span style="padding:2px;background: #cccccc; color: #0000cc; BORDER-RIGHT: #6699cc 3px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #6699cc 3px solid;">  7   talk   23:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. I deleted the page that pseudo-was there (but wasn't... weird) and the page appears to be editable now. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 00:24, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I have seen something like this where the page had invalid HTML output. HTML Tidy should normally fix this on a user page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 00:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Protected, FA, and sound icons
I was on the French Wikipedia and discovered they had a clever system for their icons. Their system makes the icons "know" if there are other icons and adjusts the position accordingly. Since I personally find it awkward that some protected articles have the icon forced further left than needed and some icons have the potential to overlap, I would strongly recommend that we switch to the French system with a few modifications. Click here for the Javascript. The script works by putting the icons in a line above the title of the article and floating them right. See Ligne 7 du métro de Paris for an example (notice how the sound icon and the AdQ/FA star don't overlap), cf. France. The wikicode would look something like this:

Anyone interested? obento musubi  00:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Written Language Auto-Traslation Systems : Language barrier in Wikipedia
Language barrier in Wikipedia or anywhere in the world of communication can be overcome atleast for the written media through autotranslation; link for this is given given here to convert any of languages listed in the program to another; conversion is automatic and on-the-fly. The translation may not be linguistically accurate in usage or contextual meaning.


 * Translates from original with original not shown
 * Translates from original with original shown side by side

With program systems such as above, it seems a Wikipedia page or any written text can be traslated to another language on the list in the programs or similar program as may come to light. A high level discussion is needed that the Wikipedia main page should include availabilty of Auto-Translation, though says distinctly that that page is only for the content of that page. Above matter, actually pertains to Wikipedia opening page with the globe and multiple languages of the world shown, but has no discussion facility on that page. This is the page where some form of this matter can be incorporated and will receive wider exposure of availabilty of Auto-Translation Systems. I will attempt to insert the same on the Main page also; this one is from a beginner with above link deleted twice from the External Links on Air France 447 page where I had established a translation using the the first Translation system link #1 above to translate the Brazilian Air Force Portal with lot of information on the progress of accident investigation. Feel free to help these re-establish link on Air France 447 page if appropriate. Patelurology2 (talk) 01:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We have other language Wikipedias for people who don't speak English... Stifle (talk) 08:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Search through the archives— this has been discussed several times. Machine translation is not reliable enough for our purposes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See Wikipedia Signpost/2009-06-15/News and notes for the announcement of the Google translator toolkit. It is not automated, but it should be more reliable. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:52, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Javascript not working?
My use of User:Ais523/hidetopcontrib.js has suddenly, this morning, stopped working. The "hide top contrib" tab still shows up, but clicking it makes no difference. Also, my Twinkle rollback links have disppeared from my contribs-page. Can anyone help? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► secretariat ─╢ 10:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing has changed, BTW. I have tried on two different computers. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► quaestor ─╢ 11:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I had a look, but I can't quite fix it. I think the problem must lie in a change to the html of Special:Contributions caused by the recent update of the MW version that en's running. Someone more familiar with the changes might be able to advise. - Jarry1250 (t, c) 11:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The script checks whether you are the top contributor by looking for &lt;strong&gt;(top)&lt;strong&gt; in the HTML for each entry. However, the (top) text is no longer bolded using the strong tag - it's set to &lt;span class="mw-uctop"&gt;. Thus, the script thinks you are not the top contributor for anything, and does nothing. You'd be best off asking the script developer to fix it. A le_Jrb <sup style="color:blue;">talk  12:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

<< And presumably TWinkle works by putting "rollback" links next to top contribs using the same method? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► sundries ─╢ 12:12, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It probably does something similar, although I can't actually be bothered to look through the twinkle code and find where it broke. MediaWiki was updated around 4 hours ago (still ongoing, possibly) which will be what broke it. Developers will need a while to fix things. A le_Jrb <sup style="color:blue;">talk  12:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I just looked, it does – can you think of what specific coding should be used for the correction, that'd probably make it easier, if I can tell the scripter exactly what could be done as a fix? Thanks!! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► constabulary ─╢ 12:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at possible solutions for my version of User:Markhurd/hidetopcontrib.js now. Mark Hurd (talk) 14:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed for Twinkle, thanks. Amalthea  15:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed my User:Markhurd/hidetopcontrib.js. Also added userHideAllSubsequent, which when =true will also hide all but the most recent edit, so it is more like watchlists. Mark Hurd (talk) 15:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Where is the code for the hide subsequent tab? You must have read my mind, because I dreamt of having this feature earlier today. —Ost (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * userHideAllSubsequent is not another tab, just a user setting you can specify in your monobook.js. E.g.

userHideAllSubsequent=true; importScript('User:Markhurd/hidetopcontrib. js');
 * Mark Hurd (talk) 16:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that all started out making sense to me then quickly surpassed my understanding. I used those flags all the time to see if someone had replied to a message, added information to an article or whatnot. Knowing whether I was the last contributor or not made my use of WP much more efficient. Will there be some kind of fix in place one way or the other? Matt Deres (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC) (who came here to ask that very question)
 * Ah, all better now; never mind! Matt Deres (talk) 10:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Autosig not working ~
Alright, who is playing with the autosig? That extra "Contributions/" is totally unneeded. Contributions/199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC) (supposed to be 199.125.109.102 (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC))
 * Hmmm, I don't see anything here: MediaWiki:Signature-anon. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "$2" in there is malfunctioning as "Contributions/xx.xx.xx.xx" instead of just the IP address. A change has been proposed to remedy this until it is fixed. I'm not sure what $2, the "nickname" for the IP is however I have never seen an anon have another signature besides its own IP address. Triplestop (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do we use the variable $2? Looking at the source, it appears as if $1 is actually the IP, and $2 is... something else? Maybe this is causing the error. Of course, I'm probably wrong about this, but my proposed remedy is to change the $2 in the source to $1. The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 21:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm looking through the code revisions however I am unable to find the culprit. See Triplestop (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Go to and find where it says "function getUserSig( &$user ) {" Triplestop (talk) 21:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) I applied that workaround. I don't think anons can ever have a nickname option set here on enwiki, so it can probably stay in permanently. Amalthea  21:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 23:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the symptoms are fixed. The bug is filed as 19232. Amalthea  10:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Surprise pipe-trick. $2 is the "nickname" of an IP address which doesn't have one, so it was blank, giving us something like: --Special:Contributions/127.0.0.1 which expands itself by copying everything between the colon and the vertical bar. — CharlotteWebb 19:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Aaah ... stupid pipe trick. Thanks, Amalthea  19:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

coord / CSS malfunction?
Is anyone else seeing a display problem with coordinates at the page title level? Suddenly tonight I am seeing the coordinates baseline running slightly below the horizontal rule underneath the title. See Lawrence, Massachusetts, Lodi, California, London which I have checked. I can't remember whether it was above or below the rule before - I think it was below. Happens in monobook on FF 3.0.11/IE7 on WinXP and FF 3.0.11/Safari 4/Opera 9.64 on Mac OS X 10.5, whether I am logged in or out. I removed custom javascript and purged the page, cache etc. and still always displays crashed into the rule. Sswonk (talk) 01:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a perennial, or recurring issue. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 01:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, for example in Archive 38 from a year ago. I asked whether anyone else is seeing it, although based on what I tested I'm pretty sure everyone is. Looks messy, and the template page was last edited in February. I understand it is the template that needs to follow changes to the default CSS/js, any ideas who to notify? Sswonk (talk) 01:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW,  mentioned on that archive page fixes it for me. Sswonk (talk) 01:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And Archive 11 before that. Looking at some old screenshots the coordinates were normally below the line unless you were logged in, in which case they were well above the line if there was a central notice. There used to be a little globe too, and the top of the globe was just at the bottom of the line, in between the word Coordinates and the coordinates. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 03:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure this is a side-effect of 19219, which has been causing a lot of problems with those "topicon" things. The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 10:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

License update, mediawiki messages
The license update for en.wikipedia has been implemented by Eloquence. The new copyright warning is now four-lines long and contains several external links that may need to be made in plain text, and the format of edittools rethought as well. As of now, it's not very user-friendly. We must follow those instructions. Cenarium (talk) 01:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Could the line "Re-users will be required to credit you in any medium, at minimum, through a hyperlink or URL to the article you are contributing to." be removed? That's all covered in the terms of use. (I'm not going to do it myself because I don't want to really mess with the legal stuff). And maybe it could be enclosed in &lt;small> tags? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Erik has been fairly insistent on that bit. Dragons flight (talk) 01:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which part? Or is it both? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty much everything beginning "By saving, ..." is considered required information. In particular, Erik has been insistent about the "Re-users..." sentence.  Dragons flight (talk) 01:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, maybe &lt;span class="plainlinks"> could be put on each of the external links? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Plainlinks should be fine. Dragons flight (talk) 01:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thought not at all simpler, it is interesting to see this version at Commons which has the virtue of being pretty (and also pretty huge). Dragons flight (talk) 01:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please no template! Really, on commons, users almost never actually edit, but here, we don't want to scare away new users with such notices. Let's be concise and to the point. Cenarium (talk) 01:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No. It looks nice, but as Cenarium said that might scare people away and it is way to big. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Just want to point out that something in between, like:


 * is probably possible, which is two lines on my screen. In other words, make it smaller, but also highlight it in some way that encourages people not to overlook it entirely.  Dragons flight (talk) 01:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say let's see how simply changing in plain links renders first for now (I'm no expert in this stuff, so I prefer not to do it.), then seek more input. But yes, something in those lines may be possible. Cenarium (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've put in the plainlinks because the arrows would drive me nuts. Dragons flight (talk) 02:06, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did the same for edittools. Now we can write local copies, so we can link internally. Cenarium (talk) 02:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Local copies, done. Dragons flight (talk) 04:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The attribution permission is important because some users have found our terms confusing in this regard in the past, insisting that in spite of fairly clear usage guidelines, attribution must happen by crediting every single contributor by name. We want to make sure that there's absolutely no confusion about this point for anyone who contributes. But text refactoring within reason, abbreviating the licenses, changing the font size etc. may all be ways to make it less bulky.--Eloquence* 01:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to change "GNU Free Documentation License" to "GFDL" and the CC license to "CC-by-SA-3.0"? Would that be legally possible, and if so do you think that it would get to confusing doing that? The latter more confusing than the first. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Is "some users" a significant number, or just a couple of trolls on a mailing list? --Apoc2400 (talk) 17:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe move "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable" down to the "Please note" section below the character insertion box? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Central buttons
I really don't like having the buttons and fields centralized on Special:RecentChangesLinked and the  pages... especially when other pages are the same as they have been. Should a bug report be filed, is this fixable in MediaWiki-space, or is there really consensus for this change? It seems much less usable (less intuitive), and looks fairly ugly, IMO. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I guess it's been that way on the delete page... but on RecentChangesLinked it is definitely new. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks even worse in the User Profile tab in Monobooks' Special:Preferences: The 30%/70% column widths causes a very different layout in the four fieldsets since the tables themselves are of very different width, depending on the content. The labels in the two top fieldsets have a width of 159px and 115px here, and the labels in the bottom fieldsets 492px. Looks extremely bad. Amalthea  10:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Need to find the name of a particular tool...
Can anyone help me with the name and location of the tool/program I described here? I saw it used a couple of weeks ago in the case of someone with a long history of uploading copyvio content and I believe that it may be useful in dealing with the current AnyBot situation. Thanks. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 04:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Gee, I'm really sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what tool you're referring to. I did a search all over the site, and couldn't find anything. Are you sure you're not mixing this up with something else, and it doesn't really exist the way you described it? Beyond that, is it possible to simply check your browser history and see if it is in there? If not, then I don't know how to help you. Whatever it is, however, it's probably something on the toolserver. I'll get back to you if I find anything, though. The Earwig  (Talk &#124; Editor review) 04:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

is there a way to search several sections with one search?
Is there a way to input several prefix parameters to search? For example, is there a way to search the "Wikipedia:Votes for deletion" section and the "Wikipedia:Articles for deletion" for "minor leagues baseball"? Is there any way to do this with one search? --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk 02:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * not at the moment, but I might hack it up if I get some time over the weekend. --rainman (talk) 09:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * boy, that would be nice. It would be really nice if a person could pass a list of "prefixes" that indicated which sections to search.  But, hey, I'll take any way you can set up to do it.  :)  --<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk  18:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * this works now, thanks to rainman, and I have updated the search documentation for anyone wishing to use prefix for searching more than one namespace/section.--<span style="color:#AF0AAB;background:#FFFFbb;font-family:Viner Hand ITC; margin-right:0;padding:2px 5px 1px">stmrlbs | talk 07:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

My thanks
My thanks to whoever decided that the XML produced by the Wikipedia API could use an unannounced change -- one of my bots spent half the day falsely informing people that they'd uploaded unsourced images. --Carnildo (talk) 01:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Which part of the API? Dragons flight (talk) 02:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "prop=revisions": the element now has a 'xml:space="preserve"' attribute, which causes naive XML parsers such as XML::Simple to convert it into a data structure rather than a string. I haven't had time to check for other changes, so there may be more. --Carnildo (talk) 04:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ouch, I have code that may break on that too. Thanks for the heads up.  Dragons flight (talk) 05:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's 50041 in response to 18617. It occurs whenever a text node is given as an element's content. <b style="color:#FF0000;">haz</b> (talk) 07:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My apologies, I had no idea that XML parsers would differ between the absence and presence of xml:space="preserve" in such a brain-damaged way. The attribute was added for the benefit of people using XML parsers with the very annoying (but still standards-compliant) behavior of folding whitespace in elements' contents when xml:space="preserve" was absent. Next time an API format changes in such a small way, I won't consider it too small to announce again.
 * To answer Carnildo's question: no breaking changes were announced since the last scap, and no unannounced breaking changes were introduced. --Catrope (talk) 08:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Sarcasm is rarely appreciated in reporting problems, especially since the fault in this case is with your parser, and not with the MediaWiki API. &mdash; Werdna  &bull;  talk  21:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Date issues
It seems linked dates that are formatted without a space are not showing up properly: April 12001 ( April 12001 ); April 1 2001 ( April 1 2001 ). I know we don't link dates anymore, but all the existing ones that lack the space look really odd in articles. Aboutmovies (talk) 10:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In Aboutmovies' second example, a comma is being inserted between "April 1" and "2001", so the date autoformating is still functioning. What makes you believe date autoformatting ever inserted a comma and space in the first example? --Jc3s5h (talk) 18:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I posted at WP:RFAR/DDL/Workshop and WT:MOSNUM to try to find someone that knew about this. When this had been discussed at WT:DATEPOLL, this appeared to be a recognized format.  Also, when I've been editing articles, a common date format I've seen Advisor.js recommend fixing is the format that is now giving errors (by inserting a comma), though I hadn't noticed this problem until this post. —Ost (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Besides my memory? Take a look at this version of one I corrected yesterday. Do you think an odd looking date would last for 6 months and a dozen edits? Or you can read Help:Date formatting and linking where it says "putting a comma and/or a space between the links, or starting month names with a capital gives the same result". Aboutmovies (talk) 19:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. The software would previously add a space if the links are adjacent, plus add a comma if missing from the "U.S." date format, plus remove it if present in the other (day-first) format. I have no idea why it has ceased to do this, even if you turn your date prefs on. I'll note that a lot of surprising software changes recently took effect at the same time. — CharlotteWebb 21:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * These dates may eventually get unlinked or formatted differently, but I filed 19258 for the problem. —Ost (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia and caching
Hello everyone. I would like to know how wikipedia's server-side caching works for HTML Pages (not client side caching, or caching of non html pages). Purge seems to indicate that HTML server-side caching is done (optionally) for registered users too. I was wondering how that was possible since every page is generated differently for every registered user (for example, there is the user name in the top right corner which is of course different from user to user).

So, does it "cache" only "some parts" of the page..? How can I do that? KoperTest (talk) 17:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, for logged in users, the rendered WikiText is cached, which excludes the user skin. The cached HTML for this page is available at [ ?action=render]. I'm not quite sure who assembles the page though, in particular since even logged out users will still get the "you have new messages" banner. There has to be some database interaction happening somewhere. Amalthea  18:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * mw:Manual:Cache explains the different layers of caching in MediaWiki. --brion (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

WhatLinksHere?
I'm having an issue with the WhatLinksHere page. Clicking on the link to go to the next 50 pages works the first time, but subsequent clicks just reload the same 50 pages (#51-100). The "previous 50" and "next 50" links are showing the same &from and &back numbers. I've confirmed this while logged in and logged out on two computers now. Can other people reproduce the problem? Does some new change to MediaWiki need to be reverted? Dekimasu よ! 02:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. A temporary substitute would be to hard-code the numbers in the URL or to expand the # of results shown. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 02:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't find any MediaWiki edits that could have done this. Hmm. Dekimasu よ! 03:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Already being worked on; mostly fixed in SVN.  A le_Jrb <sup style="color:blue;">talk  13:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link and update. Dekimasu よ! 13:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

API on the secure server
Why can't the api.php on the secure server be accessed anymore, e.g. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/api.php? Bug or feature? This obviously makes NAVPOP, Twinkle, and probably other scripts fail there, or will force them to break encryption. From a glance, I don't see what the problem is anyway. Amalthea 09:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Already reported on Bugzilla. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 10:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * OK thanks. Amalthea  10:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've stuck this in 19263 for reference while we poke at it. --brion (talk) 15:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I fixed it. &mdash; Werdna  &bull;  talk  21:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Amalthea  22:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)