Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 91

wikipedia status data
Does anyone know where the Wikipedia database stores article status information. I know it appears in a template in the talk pages, but am wondering if there is another location from which it is pulled. I gather that GimmeBot pulls status from the FAC discussion page. Does it pull the status changes from a flag that the process administrators set? Since FAs are tagged with a star, the data must be accessed from somewhere any time one of those pages is loaded. Is that status stored somewhere separately, or is it maintained with each article's talk page and pulled from there? (I assume GAs follow a similar pattern, but if someone knows otherwise, please let me know.) Thanks. Wikipositivist (talk) 00:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (Partial answer) There's nothing special happening when the page is loaded. The featured article "star" is generated by the template, which is part of the text of the page itself. The page loader is not even accessing the talk page.  -- John of Reading (talk) 06:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Small display problem.
Please see List of non-ecclesiastical and non-residential works by John Douglas This article has a table with a series of images running alongside it. The table is bunched to the left (even though it has a width of 100%), which is fine, but that bunching continues to See also and References (but not External links), which is not really necessary for most resolutions and regardless, the text will wrap just fine. Can someone break this? Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The whole page is in a table... I moved the refs and see also down, but it should all be reformatted. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  05:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

parse.text.*
I have a tool to translate list type articles. The tool is here. It worked great but after few months back wikipedia updated js framework it stopped working. Its failed here var parseddata=data.parse.text.*; $j("#template_previewbox").html(parseddata);

in transPreview function. Any Idea? Thanks -- Mahir78 (talk) 14:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What is "template_previewbox" ? It doesn't look familiar to me. Also, you should really use "var" before your local variables, to prevent them from leaking to the global javascript scope, where they can get accidentally overwritten or accidentally overwrite another script. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Is  even legal JS? I always thought it was a syntax error. Try   instead. --Catrope (talk) 20:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Catrope, you rocked. It helped in my two utilities (translation helper and template helper) Thanks so much. @DJ, it is an Id for a div. -- Mahir78 (talk) 12:32, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I knew it was an id for a div :D I was wondering on what kind of pages you would find that div :D —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 23:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Autocar Disambig
hello, currently the reader seaching for "Autocar" is being led to the British magazine "Autocar". since "Autocar" has a historical connotation as the term used for horseless carriages, I created Autocar (disambiguation). how do I implement it and would this be PC or too invasive? thanks! --Maximilian 08:20, 2 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maximilian Schönherr (talk • contribs)


 * That looks like a good disambiguation page. All you have to do is create a "hatnote" in the primary article to link to the disambiguation page so people have somewhere to go if they are looking for a different "autocar" article. Here is the edit I made. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  16:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

highly appreciated, gary! in the german wikipedia we would probably have a different approach. since the autocar magazine is a commercial product, just like the car manufacturers with the same or similar names, and "autocar" a neutral old expression for the horseless carriage, we would lead the reader searching for autocar directly to the disambiguation page. of course, it depends on how deeply "autocar" as a car magazine is implemented in the english and american english language today. thanks anyway! Maximilian (talk) 19:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the same approach taken here at the English Wikipedia. Generally, though, people usually leave the existing article where it is (in this case, "Autocar") and just create a new disambiguation page as you have done. If you want to, you can create a request to move the Autocar article to Autocar (magazine) and then move the disambiguation to Autocar. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  23:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

i successfully moved the lemma Autocar to Autocar (magazine). however, after having done this, i could not move Autocar (disambiguation) to Autocar as you suggested: "The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid." if you can do it, this is the text i wanted to use in the "Reason" field: ''the reason for this move is this: Autocar is a neutral term in the english language. it was widely used in the early days of the automobile for all kinds of horseless carriages. that's why i created a disambiguation page which is now the place where readers land when they search for "Autocar". i discussed this beforehand and hope it doesn't offend fans of the magazine "Autocar".'' thanks, Maximilian (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You will have to make a request at WP:RM that the page Autocar (disambiguation) be moved to Autocar in this case. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  17:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

oh, you (or some other admin) has done it already. i highly appreciate this. we can close this section now if you wish. Maximilian (talk) 19:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Talk header italics
Recently, with the help of an admin, we added a modified code from the Italics title template to the protected Talk header template. That code enables editors to italicize the article title both at the TOP of the talk page and on the top line of the Talk header box. For ex., see Talk:Pinta (ship). I created a new template, the Talk header italics template, to transclude the italics code to the Talk header template rather than to leave all that raw code within the Talk header template. The new template does not work properly, and I hope it will be a very simple fix. I'm still a bit new to the Wikimarkup, still learning, so I'm pretty sure that I've just overlooked something.

When I subst: the new template into the Talk header/sandbox and examine the code, I find that most of the code comes when it's called. However, all of the 3-brace functions that have pipes in them, such as, do not come when the new template is called. I've studied other templates to try to see why this would happen, but nothing I've seen so far has been helpful. I've tried a lot of things, to include the use of Pipe, !, and the pipe symbol's raw html code, but they don't work. Different spacings and positionings have no helpful effect. I would like to learn why I'm unable to get this template to work. Your help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance for any counsel you can provide! – Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  11:48, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * IE8
 * WIN XP Prof.
 * Why worry about the title on a talk page? And Talk header is only for talk pages with issues. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good question, Gadget850. Let's see, it's true that Talk namespace is not as crucially important as Main namespace, so my best answer to you would be that it's a matter of getting the article name correctly.  That's all.  For an article like, say, Oranges, we wouldn't want the discussion page to be titled Talk:Apples and oranges, would we?  When it comes to the title of a book, the name of a ship, a genus of some animal or plant, and so forth, the correct way to depict the name is with italics.  That's just the way things are, Gadget850.  I didn't make the italicization rule up, I just try to improve Wikipedia as well as I can.  In this case, my effort has been to depict the names of things that are supposed to be italicized in a correct manner whereever they may appear.  There are still several pages, articles, that should be italicized, but are not.  When I come across those I very quickly complete the italicization process, both for the article title and the Talk page title.  I know some people don't think it's such a big deal, however to me, it's just a matter of depicting titles correctly, and certain names are most correct when they are italicized, whether the names are on an article page, a talk page, or anywhere they might be found.  But that's just me.  Best to you! –  Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  13:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your proposal is about formatting the title, but your reply is about naming the title; see straw man. And I don't see a discussion the template talk about this. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Formatting vs. naming? That's "apples and oranges", isn't it?  So you're right, that wasn't the best comparison.  It's more like Main:Oranges vs. Main:Oranges.  If you came across the first one, would you leave it italicized?  Of course not.  You would remove whatever tool was used to italicize "Oranges".  Why?  Because "Oranges" sans italicization is the correct way to depict the title... wherever that title may be found.  This is a technical matter, and so I brought it to a technical forum.  Now, is there any way you can help to make the template work?  –  Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  14:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you give a single diff where you've done the subst: (and say what it was you typed; and how the result differs from what you wanted to achieve)?--Kotniski (talk) 14:54, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Why not just use Italic title? Talk:eBay uses Lowercase title. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 16:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the code begins with the full-fledged Italic title to enable the Talk header template to "auto-italicize" the article's title at the TOP of the page. Then I had to modify the Italic title template's code (for one thing, the   had to go) in order to italicize the article's name on the first line of the Talk header box. –  Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  19:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before, there are still 221 pages with conflicting templates. — Dispenser 21:01, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Workin' on it, boss. Two things are making the process go very slowly:
 * Almost every page has several other things that need to be fixed in addition to the page title, and
 * The Wikiserver is just trudging along today. Seems to take forever for a page to load, whether I use IE8 or FireFox, and after waiting, I often get a blank page, or a deformed page, or even a "page can't be found" notice.  It's a little exasperating. –  Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  20:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Kotniski! Here's the most recent diff where the template was substituted to the sandbox.  When you compare that with the full code in template Talk header italics (the template that was substututed to the Talk header/sandbox), you'll see that the disappearances begin on the first line.  Just after the first   the   is missing.  Right next to that after the next   the   has disappeared.  Then a little farther down on line 8, the   is missing there also.  Finally, down below that on lines 14 thru 18, all of the 3-braced numerics that included pipes, such as , are gone.  Only their parentheses turned up in the sandbox code.  If I remove the pipe from within any given 3-brace function, that function will appear in the sandbox code, but of course without the pipe it doesn't work.  Any ideas? –  Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX  )  19:15, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * PS. Please ignore the  signs in the above diff.  That was just my last ditch effort (before coming here) to check if the equal signs were messing things up.  They had no effect.
 * OK, I see the problem. I'll reply at your talk page.--Kotniski (talk) 07:12, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

RfC on account security
There is currently an ongoing RfC about improving account security on Wikipedia. As the proposals involve mainly technical changes/additions, this Village Pump page seems like an appropriate place to invite interested parties to participate. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  16:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Watch tab not working on IP user talk pages
I'm finding that the "Watch" tab doesn't work on the talk pages for IP users. Clicking on it produces the text "Watching..." (complete with the three dots) but it never shifts to "Unwatch" and the page never shows up on my watchlist. This is very inconvenient, particularly if I have left a message or warning on the page and need to follow up. The most recent failure of the "Watch" tab was today at User talk:24.251.230.197. (The tab works fine on the talk pages of registered users.) – Voceditenore (talk) 05:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I just checked that page and it seemed to work fine for me. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 06:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Strange. It's still not working for me—just tried it again—nor do any other IP talk pages. Voceditenore (talk) 06:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you have some broken userscripts that kill the other scripts when you visit that page ? —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Um... what's a userscipt? Is it a Gadget of some kind? I looked under the "gadget" tab in "my preferences" and there are no gadgets checked at all which is the way it's always been. I use Windows Internet Explorer 7 Voceditenore (talk) 07:32, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * See WikiProject User scripts, it doesn't look like you have any set up... ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  08:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have the same problem in IE8 (running on Windows Vista) for IP user pages (but not registered users), File pages, the two corresponding talk spaces, and no other namespaces. It's the same with and without IE8 in compatibility mode. I have no problems in Firefox, Google Chrome or Opera. It works in IE8 if the watch url is entered manually, for example with: Right-click the watch/unwatch tab/star, select Copy shortcut, right-click in the browser address bar, select Insert, press Enter. It also works to click a normal link with a watch url, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Example.jpg&action=watch. But every time the watch tab/star is clicked in IE8, it fails. In MonoBook there is a "watch" tab which changes to say "watching..." and nothing else happens. In Vector there is a watch star which starts spinning and never stops. Unwatching behaves exactly the same: It fails in IE8 on IP userpages and file pages when the tab/star is clicked. The MonoBook tab changes from "unwatch" to "unwatching...". PrimeHunter (talk) 13:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank goodness someone else has this problem! I also have a problem with the watch tab on files, although never realized it until just now. I usually only watch files I upload myself and there's a box to tick which automatically puts them on watch when the file is uploaded. Thanks for the work around. It's a big help until/if it gets sorted out. Voceditenore (talk) 13:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I also have a watch-tab problem, which is intermittent. At Talk:Fluorine, I tried clicking the watch tab, which goes for http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fluorine&action=watch (which is the correct URL) but that didn't carry out a "watch" action - instead it took me to the article Undefined. After three or four attempts it succeeded. Windoze XP Pro, Firefox 3.6, Monobook. -- Red rose64 (talk) 21:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The talk page for "parliamentary system" is locked
Even though parliamentary system itself is unlocked, talk:parliamentary system is locked, and cannot be edited. This is pretty obviously a silly mistake, would an admin mind correcting it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.184.30.134 (talk) 05:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to be. I just made a change to it at least as far as Preview, and it showed. Bielle (talk) 06:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes a software glitch displays "View source" at the top where the "Edit" link should be. If you click on "View source" anyway, you may find that you can edit the page after all. Any good? -- John of Reading (talk) 06:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, you are correct. How confusing. 139.184.30.134 (talk) 23:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Toolbar and Search Box
I've recently noticed that there is a problem with the edit view. The problem is that the editing toolbar doesn't come up in edit view and also I've discovered that the search box no loger provides suggestions based on what you typed. The problem arose about a week or two ago. I'm using Internet Explorer 8 on Windows 7. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 06:37, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It frankly also seems to be the same problem we had a short while ago as the templates below the edit box don't work as links and are just text. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, something that logged in users are receiving in their Javascripts, is broken. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Traced to Twinkle. I made a fix. Should be resolved shortly. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Or not. There seems to be another issue in Twinkle regarding HTMLFormElement, but i can't trace it exactly... —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 09:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

CSS question
There's a CSS question at Help talk:Options to not see an image which could use an expert or two. Has the software changed or has the documentation always been wrong? -- John of Reading (talk) 15:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Nonstandard IP
I was just wondering about Special:Contributions/65.164.176.xxx. It does appear to be an IP account, but why the letters instead of numbers? jorgenev 05:13, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't appear to be a real IP but a username that looks like an IP address. On the other hand, those edits are really really old...I wonder if there was something different on how IPs were recorded. If you look at the history here there's another username that follows the same format and it's very old as well. I don't understand the history of that page though...looks like there was some import that either erased most of the editing history or the page was not available for editing for 9 years. Odd. RxS (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It is indeed an IP account. As RxS suspected, back in the "good old days" MediaWiki wikis didn't store your exact IP address, they blurred it by replacing the final segment with "xxx". That was, however, phased out, leaving us where we are today, with exact IP addresses being recorded. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 09:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed – see bug 3631. As for the history of "cartoonists" mentioned above, it has been a redirect since July 2002, hence the fact that it hasn't received many edits since then. Graham 87 09:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Signature
When I was changing my signature, I was getting a message which was saying in red Can anyone say that is my new signature code correct? My new signature code is:
 * There are problems with some of your input

Omkar1234 (talk) 12:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * should be,   should be  . Nothing else leaps out at me. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 12:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Forgot to say that this also comes beside the sig changing box:

Invalid raw signature. Check HTML tags.

Omkar1234 (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you change 1234 to 1234 in addition to changing the apostrophes? The following should work. —DoRD (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Omkar 1234 Space ShuttleOmkar1234!


 * Done, Thanks. Omkar 1234 Space ShuttleOmkar1234!​ 14:51, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What change did you make in the code? Omkar 1234 Space ShuttleOmkar1234!​ 14:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You had two errors in your original code: There were two apostrophes after the first Ravie where a double quote needed to be and there was a slash missing from the tag after the 1234. —DoRD (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Slow internet connection
Everytime i go on wikipedia theres a slow internet connection. Other websites seem to run okay. Mind explaining? do you know any solutions? Pass a Method talk  15:31, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * See the conversation above. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  16:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Review of my script
I've had a couple reports of my user script collection, nothingthree, not working quite right in some instances. I'm trying to find any reasons it might be failing, since it's working very smoothly for me—I haven't been able to replicate any of the issues.

I can trace back a few errors to my scripts, but the great majority of them are issues with CollapsibleTabs that I've asked about a couple of times without success (adding custom tabs, or moving existing ones, tends to give it errors; they don't affect my scripts directly AFAICT). The only one that I can reliably trace back to my script is that intermittently, I will get the error that mw.loader.using, a routine provided by MediaWiki and recommended for use, sometimes isn't defined when the code is run. This part might deserve wider discussion.

Please, if you're decent with JavaScript, take a look over my code to try to find where things might be going wrong. I'd appreciate any constructive criticism.

Is there anything that I can fix or improve upon in my script collection? There are a few breaking changes to how it's loaded that I'd like to make once I have the time to keep that fairly seamless for end-users, but aside from that, the script appears fairly stable to me. Thank you, {&#123; Nihiltres &#124;talk&#124;edits&#124;⚡}&#125; 14:31, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

usercontribs API, how to get newly created articles
Here's the documentation, here's a search of my contribs, and I think |new&ucnamespace=0 this should be a search of my created articles. But it doesn't work. Can someone correct my query-foo? tedder (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&list=recentchanges&rctype=new&rclimit=500&rcnamespace=0&rcuser=Tedder is what your trying I think, It just goes back 30 days (length of the "New" flag) ΔT The only constant 17:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh bother. I'm looking for several years' worth. Any ideas? I could pull all contribs and look for new pages in a more manual fashion, anything else? tedder (talk) 17:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You might want to adjust your section title then :) http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pages/index.php?name=Tedder&namespace=0&redirects=noredirects&getall=1 is what your looking for. ΔT The only constant 18:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I was looking for created articles through the API, but I don't mind doing a hacky thing by using the soxred tool. tedder (talk) 18:12, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually for what your doing Soxred's database query is your best option. The database itself only stores the fact that a particular revision created the page for 30 days (the length of time an item is in the recent changes table), that is because the flag that identifies it as a new page is stored in the rc table. If you want to go beyond 30 days you can troll every edit you have ever made or go the smart way and use soxreds tool that queries the database for all pages where rev_id =0 and you are the user who made that edit (something not done via the api due to it being to expensive on the servers) ΔT The only constant 18:22, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Making non-mainspace page titles display with a space after the colon
When you think about it, this is how they should be (I know we've got used to seeing them without a space, but written English requires a space in this position). I know it can be done individually at each page with DISPLAYTITLE, but how easy would it be to make this the default behaviour? Could it be done without a software update?--Kotniski (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not required to follow the English written rules necessarily. The text before the colon is called a "namespace" in computer programming, which allows us to have two separate pages named the same thing (such as Example and Example) and then using the namespace to indicate which group of pages both pages belong to. Articles belong in the "article" namespace even though they have no prefix, so they are a bit of a special case. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  17:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You can use a script like the following to change the page title:


 * Helder 20:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Could that be built into the software or the standard CSS files? (I'm not interested in inserting the spaces just for myself, but in making titles a little bit more legible for general readers who have no reason to know or care about the technicalities of Wikipedia's namespaces.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not very helpful to change the display format for the sake of adhering to an irrelevant and unrelated convention (e.g. a space after a colon before a list of things), if the cost of so doing is that we can no longer copy the displayed article title to use as a link, without having to remove the inserted space. It would be better if you could just get over the fact that the domain of namespaces does not have to follow the rules of English grammar. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. Try putting extra spaces in URLs and see how well _that_ works. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It works, right? The "domain of namespaces" does not have to follow... oh, I don't know what that's supposed to mean, and of course we don't have to make this change, but if it can be done with a little tweak, it seems worth doing, just as we generally make an effort to make our offerings grammatical, properly puncutated, etc. for readers' convenience.--Kotniski (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes we work hard to make sure that English on this site is written well. Namespaces, however, are generally only made aware to editors, not mere readers. You will never encounter namespaces unless you become a participant in the Wikipedia process rather than a passive reader, so only a small percentage of the total visitors ever actually encounter namespaces. And again, the text before the colon is a namespace, so it is not supposed to follow conventional colon usage. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  17:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not really correct. Categories, Portals and possibly some Wikipedia pages are meant for readers too. User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk; 20:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd bet that most visitors aren't even aware that Wikipedia has categories or portals. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  00:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Most aren't, perhaps, but presumably a sizeable number of them do use these pages (otherwise why do we go to so much trouble maintaining them?) There are "Help:" pages as well, some of which are addressed to readers rather than editors.--Kotniski (talk) 08:31, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it seems to work since at least for the current page (Wikipedia: ____ Village_pump_(technical)), additional spaces after the colon aren't a problem. Besides, if they are a problem somewere, the space could be simulated by wraping something like
 * around the "Namespace:" part, so that you could still copy the title of the page without the space. Helder 15:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * around the "Namespace:" part, so that you could still copy the title of the page without the space. Helder 15:56, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

So, leaving aside for the moment the question of whether it's a good idea, does anyone know the answer to the technical question - what would need to be changed to make it happen?--Kotniski (talk) 07:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * To do it properly requires change in MediaWiki, which can take a while. Another solution would be add JavaScript like the one above to MediaWiki:Common.js. Of course, both solution can be used in concert – first deploy the JS and after MW is updated, remove it. User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk; 19:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see a need to do this whether our readers encounter namespaces or not. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 15:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks for the advice; it sounds like it would be quite easy to achieve if we wanted it. Sometime when the people who care about punctuation have stopped talking about hyphens and dashes, I'll propose this.--Kotniski (talk) 21:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Pages not loading
I'm having continuing issues loading pages, it seemed to get better for a day or so after some router work was done but now it's just as bad as it was. Pages fail to load about 30% of the time and I get this error:
 * Error 103 (net::ERR_CONNECTION_ABORTED): Unknown error.

Anyone else having this issue? I get it from several computers in the house. RxS (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not having the problem.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I quickly glanced at the error on the web, and it appears to be a Chrome error. Have you tried a different browser? I use FF.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've tried it on FF 4, IE 8 and Chrome and it happens on all three (on 2 different computers). The error above is a Chrome error, but the other browsers give the same type of message. RxS (talk) 20:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And just as further info, it drops for 3 or 4 minutes then comes back. Acting just the same way as it was a week ago or so. RxS (talk) 20:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it just Wikimedia sites that are affected? <font face="Verdana">&#91; stwalkerster &#124; talk &#93;  23:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What is the error message on FF? To get a reliable sample, you should try it on at least 4,556 computers. :-) Sorry, I'm sure it's frustrating, but humor is the only thing that saves me in these things.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The error message he's pasted is indicative of a network problem, not a browser problem. I highly doubt getting practically the same message from a different browser will help diagnose the problem. <font face="Verdana">&#91; stwalkerster &#124; talk &#93;  23:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Great, I'll let you and him hash it out. I just feel sorry for him because this comes on the heels of other problems using Wikipedia, and although those problems have gone away for most of us, here he is inflicted with yet another problem. Good luck.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't mean to start an argument! In FF the error is The connection has timed out: The server at en.wikipedia.org is taking too long to respond. In IE 8 it's IE cannot display the page. wikipedia.org and en.wikipedia.org both return pings though out the outages. It's exactly the same pattern that was widely reported a week or so ago. RxS (talk) 05:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it just Wikimedia sites that are affected? <font face="Verdana">&#91; stwalkerster &#124; talk &#93;  14:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes....nothing else is effected at all. RxS (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Happening to me also, other sites work fine. Dougweller (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Doug, for RxS's sake, it's helpful that you're experiencing the problem, even though it's no doubt a pain for you. RxS, there was no argument (at least not from my viewpoint). Stwalkerster was just explaining things to me, and I deferred to him. Hopefully, someone is looking into the problem. It took a while to get any action on the other problem.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems clear that whatever fix was put in last week didn't clear the issue totally. RxS (talk) 19:07, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm having the same problem for around 2 weeks now. Im from London, but other sites work fine <font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method <font color="orange" face="papyrus">talk  21:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I can see that this edit of mine was saved ok 30 minutes ago but in the IE8 tab where I made the edit I still have the edit box and the status bar says "Waiting for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri". I have been having this problem off and on for maybe two months. Nurg (talk) 08:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Could this be related to the slow page load problems here that are still evident. Keith D (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Correct, Keith, the desc there by SlimVirgin (17:58, 18 May 2011 UTC) sounds just like my problem. The problem has been discussed since at least 2 April. Nurg (talk) 11:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Any chance of getting someone to look at this? It's really bad...RxS (talk) 21:29, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I recommend using the secure server. <b style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 0.4em,#5a0 -0.2em -0.2em 0.4em,#00a 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;color:#ddd">Wasbeer</b> 21:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It is impossible to edit tonight (southern Ontario Canada: Firefox). The pages keep timing out, and have been doing so for the past 5 or 6 hours. Bielle (talk) 01:35, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Using the secure server seems to have helped. Not that that's a fix of course. RxS (talk) 03:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, now that I say that I get another error (only trying to load Wikipedia:
 * Proxy Error The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
 * The proxy server could not handle the request GET /wikipedia/en/w/index.php.
 * Reason: Error reading from remote server
 * I've never seen Wikipedia have so many issues. RxS (talk) 04:51, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Interwiki links to user page/talk
Hi all. May be a stupid question, but do interwiki links work for user pages? If not, why not - I'm not the only user who flits between different languages from time to time. --Dweller (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, they work on user pages, but they never work on talk pages, including pages in the user talk namespace. Graham 87 09:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I suppose that's sufficient. Where would be the best place to start a discussion to ascertain consensus for one of the interwiki bots to add userpages to its task list? --Dweller (talk) 09:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure that's a good idea. If you look at my user page, you'll see that it's quite extensive: it's where I keep all the "about me" stuff, because I consider the English Wikipedia to be my "home" Wikipedia. The page has a stack of H:ILLs, one for each other-language Wikipedia where I've made at least one edit. But on the other pages - such as cy:Defnyddiwr:Redrose64 - there is very little information: just enough to make it clear that I don't speak Welsh but do speak English; there is also a single ILL back to my user page on English Wikipedia. Hopefully this has the effect of directing people to English Wikipedia if they want to either know about me, or send me a message; it thus saves them from clicking from Cymraeg to Deutsch to Français etc. etc. going aound in circles, wasting time until they get lucky at English. -- Red rose64 (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What's an ILL? You linked to the Illinois wikiproject. Perhaps because I don't know what you mean, I can't follow your reasoning for why you think interwiki links would be a bad idea. --Dweller (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Worked it out. Even if there were 100 interwiki links on your welsh userpage, the in-your-face message you've posted there would make it clear to anyone visiting how they should contact you. --Dweller (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * See also:
 * Bug 26085 - Languagelinks aren't working on talk pages. (WONTFIX)
 * Bug 28604 - Improve interlanguage links for talk pages (NEW, with 1 vote)
 * Helder 15:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm asking where the right place would be to ascertain consensus on this. --Dweller (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry I meant H:ILL. As for getting bots to do it, try WP:BON. -- Red rose64 (talk) 17:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I appreciate that I'd ask for a bot task there, but it strikes me I should look for consensus somewhere first. --Dweller (talk) 18:42, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

How do you return only titles in search results?
I don't need to know the file size, or see any of the content.

my preferences looks like it supports this functionality, but it doesn't work

grep on toolserver is no longer accessible (the host's account went dead).

Another grep tool would be ideal. Are there any out there that will work on Wikipedia?

Any information on any article-title-only listers would be appreciated. The Transhumanist 19:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Try using the "intitle:" parameter, using Wikipedia's own search engine, example here: There are other handy search features at Search. First Light (talk) 02:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but The Transhumanist needs to use regexps. With Grep out of action, the only workaround I know of is to download a database dump and use the AWB database scanner. Surely there must be an easier way? -- John of Reading (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am in the process of importing the tool to my own account. Expect it to be up by the end of the day. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 12:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Running a query on en.wp seems slow though. Was it like that before? - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 18:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (Note that there are other bugs, such as $1, which I shall work on, given time. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 13:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC))
 * You can use the API: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&list=search&srsearch=meaning&srprop= (leave "srprop" blank to only get namespace and titles). More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php under the heading "list=search". the wub "?!"  11:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the whole point is to allow regexes to be used, which is not possible using the search module AFAIK. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 13:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Image page missing link
Image:Buddhabrot logistic map animation tn.gif

The page for this image says that it's not used on any en.wikipedia.org pages, but it is. It's linked on the article for Buddhabrot. How can can this be fixed?  Pine (GreenPine) t 22:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It is on Commons. See the link on the file page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 23:09, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't a commons issue. The wikicode used to include the image has two image specifiers. The first (Image:Buddhabrot logistic map animation tn.gif) is used to display the thumbnail; the second (Image:Buddhabrot_logistic_map_animation.gif is what you get to if you click on the image. The first is displayed but not linked, whereas the second is linked but not displayed.
 * If you go to the respective image pages and first look under the "File links" heading - which shows where the image is displayed; and then go for the "What links here" link - which shows where the image is linked - you'll see the difference.
 * File:Buddhabrot_logistic_map_animation.gif
 * Special:WhatLinksHere/File:Buddhabrot logistic map animation.gif
 * File:Buddhabrot logistic map animation tn.gif
 * Special:WhatLinksHere/File:Buddhabrot logistic map animation tn.gif
 * The "What links here" pages for both files list the article Buddhabrot, but one shows "(file link)", the other does not; the presence of the "(file link)" note shows that the image is actually displayed. -- Red rose64 (talk) 23:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, so what I see happening here is that the article is displaying the smaller image but linking to the larger image. That explains the difference between "link" and "file link." However,File:Buddhabrot_logistic_map_animation.gif doesn't show that the image has any relations to the article. Shouldn't that page say that the image has been linked?  Pine (GreenPine)  t 07:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Special:Contributions
Is it possible to only show the edits that are not the latest revisions in Special:Contributions? The opposite of what the current checkbox does. <b style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 0.4em,#5a0 -0.2em -0.2em 0.4em,#00a 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;color:#ddd">Wasbeer</b> 08:36, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, using the script User:Markhurd/hidetopcontrib.js -- John of Reading (talk) 08:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks John! <b style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 0.4em,#5a0 -0.2em -0.2em 0.4em,#00a 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;color:#ddd">Wasbeer</b> 08:59, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Incomplete transfer of contributions following username change
I had a username change from to  over a week ago. Most of my contributions were transferred almost immediately, but there are still (exactly) 1500 edits and 500 deleted edits still attributed to my old username (see and ). I thought this would be just a delay due to the queue, but nothing's changed. Is there anything I can do to get these reattributed?&mdash;Optimist on the run (the admin formerly known as Tivedshambo) (talk) 05:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If they have not moved after 3-4 weeks, you could post to 17313 or otherwise flag a developer down to move them manually. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk  13:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

ACEI equivalents
The ACE inhibitors have different strengths with different starting dosages. Dosage should be adjusted according to the clinical response. Originally posted on my user page 2 years ago. Invite new comers to post new ideas and notation of some seemingly wierd ways of function of Wikipedia sysytem; system largely is intutive ease to learn from as done by others.

Patelurology2 (talk) 17:15, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but why does this fall within WP:VPT? Surely it's something for the relevant article or its talk page? -- Red rose64 (talk) 17:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorting in tables
I tried to resolve a problem with a table, but without very much success, because after my initial revision, clicking the sorting button arranged first numbers starting with "9", then those starting with "8" and so on, thus leaving 100 far after 99 and right before 0. Is there really not a way to make numbers sort numerically rather than alphabetically when sort is used? --Theurgist (talk) 01:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I suspect the problem may lie in the advice given in sort "A table using this template should use it in all rows." Meanwhile the value 0 for Bhutan seems to work as well as the value -1, and is more appropriate. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

"Under construction" breaks parsing?
Just a hunch: Vancouver was giving the blue wikimedia screen errors last few days, despite its parsing parameters were not critical (Post-expand include size: 1292769/2048000 bytes; Template argument size: 535752/2048000 bytes). Reduction of template transclusion had no effect, but removal of  apparently solved the problem. The loading is slow though. Thoughts? Materialscientist (talk) 05:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

World IPv6 day
Hi. I had the Signpost announce that Wikimedia was hoping to participate in World IPv6 day; unfortunately, the operations team just let me know that testing on Wikimedia sites wouldn't happen, because of unexpected required changes to our database schema. Just wanted to let you know in case people were wondering what the status was on this. guillom 11:53, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Aww :( I wanted to see what would happen. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  16:56, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason was likely because MySQL, Wikipedia's database software, does not support IPv6. See Comparison of IPv6 application support.Jasper Deng (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Back end software (such as MySQL) does not need to use IPv6. Either Apache or Squid (using Ubuntu 11.04) could be used as a reverse proxy. – Allen4names 05:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Problems with geonotices not working ... can anyone help?
Geonotice / MediaWiki:Geonotice.js doesn't currently seem to be working - there should be a notice up in the UK at the moment, but it's not appearing. Please could someone that knows how to debug javascript take a look? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The "Edinburgh" link has <tt>title="Birmingham meetup"</tt>, but I've no idea if that's something that would stop it appearing. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:34, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Australia is also having problems; see Wikipedia_talk:Geonotice. -- John Vandenberg (chat) 13:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Dab link in a template
Please assist Template:Location map Indonesia Western New Guinea links to West Papua rather than West Papua (province). Can someone fix this? Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the best I can do. Note that the way works, you can't see your changes when previewing; you have to save and then purge. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:33, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Cite web auto fields
Can anyone help with this previous query I raised, which has just slipped into the archives. I've not had any responses at the Ref Toolbar talk page. Thanks. Eldumpo (talk) 16:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

DISPLAYTITLE
At Uniform k 21 polytope, I used the "DISPLAYTITLE" template, but it's not working. Why not? Michael Hardy (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Moved the page to remove the space between "k" and "21". DISPLAYTITLE will modify the style of the title, but can't change, remove or add characters. — Bility (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A hack more commonly seen on userpages may be of help here; I used some CSS,  to prevent the space showing up. <font style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'"> Intelligent  sium  01:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Problem with box padding
Hi,

On my user page, I'm getting extra left-padding in the box on the right.

I created a simpler test case in my sandbox. Here is the code:

Here is what I see. The left margin is far bigger than the right margin. Does anyone know how to fix this?

<font face="Tahoma">— Tommyjb  Talk!  (12:57, 30 May 2011)
 * ✅ <b style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 0.4em,#5a0 -0.2em -0.2em 0.4em,#00a 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;color:#ddd">Wasbeer</b> 02:12, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Hiding top edits
I used to be able to hide items on my contrib list that were most recently edited by me (via a doohickey in my monobook) - since the contrib lists have changed to enable an editor to only see their top edits, this no longer works, which is a real pain. Is there any way of being able to again just see contribs which have been edited since my last edit (other than adding several thousand new items to my already-bloated watchlist)? Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  01:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * User:Markhurd/hidetopcontrib.js is still working for me with the Vector skin - any good? -- John of Reading (talk) 06:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try that, thanks. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  19:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Grutness, since you're using my top-edit hiding script in nothingthree.js (at least in your vector.js), could you please let me know what browser/OS/etc. you're using? The script still works perfectly for me, so the bug that breaks it for you is probably trivial to fix. I've had no problems with it in Safari, and I debugged it a little for IE fairly recently. {&#123; Nihiltres &#124;talk&#124;edits&#124;⚡}&#125; 16:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Safari 5.0.2 on the machine I'm currently on... I suspect the other computer I sometimes use has an earlier version of Safari. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  19:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * My dilapidated old laptop is running Safari 3.0.4, and it's stopped working on that, too. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:52, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm so far unable to replicate the problem. Try clearing your cache, in case the problem is a fluke. {&#123; Nihiltres &#124;talk&#124;edits&#124;⚡}&#125; 02:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to be working again on 5.0.2 - may have been a cache problem. Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  00:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh...no. It worked again once on 5.0.2 - and hasn't worked again since. Doesn't seem to work at all now in either 5.0.2 or 3.0.4. I'll try the Markhurd one, I think... Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  10:47, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject category templates
A large number of WikiProject categories have been CFDed to use "importance" rather than "priority" - the list is at Categories for discussion/Working/Manual. However I can't locate the precise point to adjust the templates that populate them - is anyone able to find and initiate the change? Timrollpickering (talk) 07:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

TW SPI reporting not working
The sock reporting component of Twinkle is not working. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 07:34, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see WT:Twinkle —DoRD (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Huggle
I'm trying to configure Huggle so that no talk pages are included. I can't seem to get the command right. The command I found Here seems to be (namespaces:"alltalk") If I read the parameter correct wrapping (alltalk) with ("") disables Huggle from reading and loading talk pages. What is happening is talk pages are still being loaded and when exiting Huggle it reverts the command off my huggle.css page. What am I doing wrong ? Mlpearc  powwow  15:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably best asked at Huggle/Feedback. – ukexpat (talk) 16:15, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you need to add namespaces:-alltalk to your CSS page. You'd probably have to ask on the Huggle talk pages why it's removing stuff though. — Bility (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and Hello Ukexpat, long time no read .   Mlpearc   powwow  16:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

How does one colour a an entire column in a table?
Eg. In the List of metropolitan areas in the Americas, I want to seperate the cities located in North America from those in south America so I was thinking of making them different colors. Can anybody help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThisguyYEAH (talk • contribs) 19:20, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you'd have to color each cell individually, but please don't - we shouldn't convey information using color alone. I think the county is sufficient, or you could include a symbol to state which continent. --Golbez (talk) 19:41, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Last login - "touched field"
In the discussion about inactive admins, User:Ohms law mentioned here a "touched field" in the user table, and mentioned that there are likely extensions that already make use of it. I was watching that post but no responses were forthcoming. Do any such extensions exist? How feasible would it be to give certain users (crats, CUs, etc.) access to last-login information? I'm not trying to weigh the merit of a function like this, just the feasibility. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  16:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've done some looking around, MW:Extension:LastLoginTime seems to allow users to see their own login time, and MW:Extension:UserSnoop seems to allow an array of functions and requires a special right. Could these be easily modified for the purpose? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  03:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

"Mark all edits minor by default" is now disabled for all users
Just a heads up, "Mark all edits minor by default" is now disabled for all users, this is for the completion of 24313. For users that want this facility, you can use the WP:Userscript that can be found here or several from the original VPT discussion. Peachey88 (T · &#32; C) 07:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and fixed the heading title; I changed "not" to "now". Graham 87 07:50, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

CentralNotice about Board of Trustees election
Every Wikipedia page I visit says: The Wikimedia Board of Trustees election has started. Please vote. When I click that link it says "Sorry, your account on the English Wikipedia does not meet the voting requirements for this election." Right underneath the request to vote! Can we please modify this to only be shown to the users it applies to? It's really a slap in the face to the users to say "regardless of what you've contributed so far, it's not enough to count for us, so we don't want you as part of this community."

Thanks,

WBTtheFROG (talk) 02:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with what you said. I understand that I haven't contributed a lot to Wikipedia, but do I really need it rubbed in my face? Ybrik222 (talk) 17:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

New messages bar
The bar, no matter what colour it's in is bloody annoying. I propose that we use a central notice style notice, that would be far less intrusive and would be just as effective. — James (Talk • Contribs) • 3:45pm • 05:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think part of the reason for the conspicuousness (is that a word?) is so that you're alerted in case someone is trying to reach you urgently. For example, someone might be trying to tell you that a string of edits you're making is causing a problem. It's doubly annoying in AWB, where you not only get a window telling you that you have messages, but the whole process gets stopped until you address it. Not that I'd change that, I'm just sayin'. --Auntof6 (talk) 05:53, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It strikes fear into into the most established users :P You're not going to succeed in changing it for everyone (it's too engrained now), but you could probably restyle yours to be more like a central notice. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 10:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I use a lovely light blue and even then it's still bloody annoying :P I'm not so confident with CSS, I wouldn't know how to make it look like the central notice, though it would be nice if this were the default. I've come across quite a few users who'd rather get emailed. — James (Talk • Contribs) • 9:46pm • 11:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well now of course you do get emailed (by default). I guess you could probably just hide it? Or make the background white? Those are relatively simple operations. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 13:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Redirect capitalization tool
I have just discovered that "Google Phone" and "Google phone" redirect to different places. When a redirect is being created, maybe it would be useful if there were a built-in Wikipedia tool that checks alternative capitalizations and prompts the contributor if they already exist; if alternative capitalizations do not exist, then the tool could ask the contributor if he/she wants to create them. LittleBen (talk) 14:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Feature request should be made in . —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

DNS alias for moble wikipedia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/ is the URL of the mobile-phone/small-device optimised version of wikipedia. However, the similar URL http://m.en.wikipedia.org/ is not supported. It would be nice if they latter was a DNS alias to the former. Or http://m.en.wikipedia.org/$FOO is a HTTP 301 (Moved Permanently) redirect to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/$FOO. -- CS Miller (talk) 16:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am fairly certain that is a bugzilla sort of request. Killiondude (talk) 22:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I filed 29364 about this. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Javascript banner lag is driving me insane
Every link I click on, the page loads and then (after a half-second delay) shifts down 40px to accomodate the "Wikimedia Board of Trustees" banner or some other crap. There has to be a way to incorporate these banners into the source code rather than making them load dynamically. I'm constantly clicking on wrong links because the banner will move things around as I'm trying to click them. —Designate (talk) 20:40, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, pages are cached, so adding them into the sourcecode would invalidate ALL cached pages, when enabled or disabled. (Which would bring down wikipedia). —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but is there anything else that could be done to stop the content jumping up and down as the page loads? --DanielRigal (talk) 20:24, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The CSS could be changed to leave a blank padding area while the content loads. That depends on it being a consistent size. —Designate (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * For those of us that don't have JS running a blank space that never get populated would be a bad idea. HumphreyW (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds less annoying than having the page jump around. —Designate (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Need to have a more details box.
I am not sure if this can already be done in Wikipedia or not.

Not all readers of Wikipedia share the same intellect level. Some need more explanation to get the point. All these details on the other hand will put off more intelligent readers and will make the article too long. One way to get around this is to provide (say) a small '+' icon in places which contain more details. Readers who need to read that can click it and reveal a floating tool tip. IMHO this will allow to maintain article's brevity but at the same time will be accessible to all readers.

--Apple Grew (talk) 06:22, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is what links are for. If you don't understand a concept, you can click a link that explains it in more detail. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 10:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Template fix needed for new user pages
Could an expert please look at Template talk:New user bar - the template is currently showing an incorrect "[Edit]" link on lots of new user pages. This is a fully-protected template, so ideally it needs someone who is an expert and an admin. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

List of centenarians (sportspeople)
Could someone with the necessary technical skills help out here. Citations to a baseball stats resource are causing anomalous footnotes. Thanks. David in DC (talk) 23:11, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You can't remove the bullet from the template, so it's best to just use plain text, like this. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  23:59, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for starting me off. I've fixed all of the anomolous entries. David in DC (talk) 17:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Stuff not showing up for users who are not logged in
Hi, I tried to describe the issue at the help desk here, they pointed me in this direction. And I tried a bit of debugging after I saw it reported initially by someone else here.

I'm pretty sure it's not a local cache or a particular browser issue (I've tried IE8 and Mozilla) - and I've seen it multiple times, despite frequently clearing my cache (as I have a fairly old machine - still running xp).

I had a quick search in these archives - and the closest article I could find was this

Would I be right in thinking that it's something to do with a backlog for the 'squid' (whatever that might be?) not updating to the 'full data' rather than the 'fairly recent copy data' for people who are not logged in? And trying to look at the implications would that mean all IP addresses (rather than logged in users) trying to edit something have a risk that their edit is trying to be applied to something older than the full data ? EdwardLane (talk) 08:34, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Page load never finishes (again) - is it the Wikimania banner?
The issue previously described in WP:Village pump (technical)/Archive 88 has started occurring again. I am on Firefox 3.6.17 (I won't use FF 4 because it is so slow as to be unusable). With IE 8 the page eventually loads, but with a significant delay - this delay seems to wait for the Wikimania 2011 banner to appear. Note the banner never gets to appear in FF.

Google Chrome seems to behave properly (though for unrelated reasons I don't wish to use it). Anyone know what's going on? Jan 1 naD (talk • contrib) 10:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * FF has now started behaving (and the banner does not appear). Jan 1 naD  (talk • contrib) 10:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Secure server login
Over the past 24 hours or so, I've noticed that the screen for logging in no longer offers a link to the login page that uses the secure server. Is there still an option of logging in via the secure server? If so, how should one do it? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems to come and go. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The main page is here and the login link is here. For most URLs on Wikipedia, you just alter the first bit from  to   -- Red rose64 (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. What I notice, though, is when one goes to the login page for the regular server, there is usually some text just below the box where one logs in, under the title "Secure your account:", and beginning with the line "Consider logging in on the secure server" with "secure server" blue-linked to the login page you link above. Over the past 24 hours or so, that text has been disappearing (just leaving the login box with blank space below it) and reappearing. I'm getting the impression that this disappearance may be a bug rather than a feature. (By the way, I use Firefox 4.0.1.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorting talk pages with a template
Please assist OnThisDay adds talk pages in the form of (e.g.) Category:Selected anniversaries articles (March 2009)|, which means that a page such as Talk:The Beatles gets sorted as "The Beatles" rather than "Beatles"&mdash;is there a way to fix this? Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can wrap in a custom sort parameter, like  so that it uses the parameter but defaults to the page name so it can be safely omitted if you don't need it and won't affect already-transcluded OnThisDay templates. — Bility (talk) 21:21, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Quite a lot of templates which categorise a page will force the sort key to, which has always puzzled me. This would make sense if the normal action in the absence of a sortkey was to take the namespace into account (i.e. that putting   onto Talk:Foobar would sort that page under T, not F); but it doesn't work that way - Talk:Foobar sorts under F. It's a pain because a forced sortkey like this defeats the action of  ; and on talk pages, the   is normally simulated by adding the listas parameter to one of the WikiProject banners (usually the first one).
 * I was actually looking at this specific case quite recently - the template concerned isn't itself, but, which contains the following:
 * It beats me why this particular template should require a default sort key to be defeated. Personally I think that it could be simplified to
 * I suppose this should be brought up either at Template talk:OnThisDay or at Wikipedia talk:Selected anniversaries. -- Red rose64 (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * is always the base page name, not the full name including the namespace. Therefore, your suggested edit would place all pages in that category under the T of Talk:. Ucucha 12:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your first statement is correct; the full name including the namespace would be . But your second is incorrect: this is easily demonstrated by locating a talk page which has no banners (because they might cloud the issue by invoking a hidden  ), and onto that, add a category without specifying a sort key, and after saving, look in the category to see where it's been sorted. See Talk:Sioux Webserver and the only category that it's in - Category:Unassessed Computing articles. For me, I see it sorted under S, not under T. -- Red rose64 (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right. I'm almost sure it previously was as I wrote; the change might have to do with the new sort collation algorithm. Ucucha 13:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your first statement is correct; the full name including the namespace would be . But your second is incorrect: this is easily demonstrated by locating a talk page which has no banners (because they might cloud the issue by invoking a hidden  ), and onto that, add a category without specifying a sort key, and after saving, look in the category to see where it's been sorted. See Talk:Sioux Webserver and the only category that it's in - Category:Unassessed Computing articles. For me, I see it sorted under S, not under T. -- Red rose64 (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right. I'm almost sure it previously was as I wrote; the change might have to do with the new sort collation algorithm. Ucucha 13:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Image thumbnail purge request
The thumbnail for the image File:Barclays_Cycle_Hire_bike_handlebar.jpg, which is used on Barclays Cycle Hire is corrupt (has black bands through it); the full-size image sees to be fine. I've followed the instructions at Purge to no avail. Could someone force a purge for me? CS Miller (talk) 16:53, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The image itself seems corrupt; it generate bands at any but the original resolution. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 18:30, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether it's the image or the scaling algorithm. And the band are visible only at size of 482 px of smaller. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 22:42, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is 24854, an upstream bug in the image conversion software ImageMagick that Wikipedia uses. Work around is to convert the image from CMYK to RGB and reupload. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't all images be uploaded in the RGB colourspace rather than CMYK? CMYK is for printed images not for screen display. – ukexpat (talk) 20:28, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Rollback from watchlist
I have had User:Zvn/confirmwatchlistrollback.js in my .js for quite a while to prevent accidental rollbacks from the watchlist. Unfortunately, it has stopped working and I accidentally rollbacked an edit while browsing on my iPad this morning. I tested it a while back using FF4 and it doesn't work there, either. I don't often use rollback from the watchlist, so I don't know when it stopped working.

When I click on rollback, the script gives a confirmation popup as designed, but then goes ahead with the rollback without waiting for an answer. Perhaps someone who knows about these things can figure out what's wrong. P.S. I'm using Vector. Thanks! —DoRD (talk) 12:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Or, if another solution is available, I'd be glad to consider it. —DoRD (talk) 15:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You could remove it altogether or you could use a different account on your iPad that doesn't have the rollback privilege (using a watchlist token to access your main watchlist). – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 16:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I also found this more specific hack, but I like(d) the ability to abort a rollback from the watchlist even using FF. I have another unused account, but occasionally do admin stuff on the iPad. —DoRD (talk) 17:28, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure someone more script-savvy can fix the actual root cause for you. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 22:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you bypass your browser cache and try again? Amalthea  13:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * With FF4, I'm still getting the same behavior. With Safari 5 and mobile Safari, the popop waits for a response, but goes ahead with the rollback even if you click cancel. —DoRD (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, works for me, in both these browsers (Windows versions). Might be a conflict with one of your other scripts or gadgets? Amalthea  14:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm at a loss, then. I disabled everything except the above script and still encountered the same behavior. I didn't change any of my gadgets, though, so the conflict may be there. I give up and will instead disable links on mobile Safari. Thanks for trying, though! —DoRD (talk) 16:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

fixed..

erroneously prompted new EL captchas
I've inquired about this issue over at Help desk and was pointed here. To reiterate:

I frequently get the non-autoconfirmed new EL captcha, although I haven't added any new external link. It happens seemingly at random, and may happen even on the simplest of edits (e.g. correcting a typo). One example diff where this happened to me is here.

I've searched through BugZilla but couldn't find a ticket about this. Is it a known issue, or should I file a new bug report? Asking since there appears to be no markup/editing-related explanation. --213.196.218.59 (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

List identifiers in small font
When a list is created in small font, the list numbers or bullets appear in regular size font. Any workaround suggestions, besides numbering the list manually? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuckhil (talk • contribs) 00:55, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) First numbered item
 * 2) Second numbered item


 * First bullet list item
 * Second bullet list item


 * The bullet cannot be changed (it is an image), but the numbers can. The best way to do so is using a . <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 01:32, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) First numbered item
 * 2) Second numbered item

Office hours to discuss Article Feedback Tool
Hi everyone, I just wanted to announce that this Thursday the 16th at 18:00 UTC, there will be an IRC office hours concerning the Article Feedback Tool (full documentation) which is currently in experimental partial deployment. I'll be moderating mainly for Erik Möller, but hopefully we'll be joined by most of the Foundation staff who've contributed to this feature. Just to clarify, we want to stick to two general topics: If you have bugs to report or specific design feedback, as always Bugzilla and MediaWiki.org are respectively the best places to discuss those two things. For the office hours we'd like to stick to a broader explanation of the feature and its future. Time conversion links and other documentation for IRC office hours are on Meta. Looking forward to chatting, Steven Walling at work 22:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The strategic goals the feature aims to address. In other words, its purpose.
 * 2) Plans for developing and deploying it further.


 * Logs posted. Thanks to everyone who attended. :) Steven Walling at work 20:01, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

JavaScript disappearances...
I seem to be having problems with JavaScript add-ons in the last couple of weeks. First, the script I was using to hide top edits in my contrib list stopped working - Nihiltres managed to fix it, briefly, but it's since stopped working again - and now I seem to have lost the HotCat function. Bearing in mind that I am completely an "end user" and wouldn't be able to tell a variable from an if/else function: 1) what has happened - is it something I've done, or a change in WP functionality, and 2) what can I do to get those things working again? Note that I'm using the monobook skin on Safari 5.0.2, ands I have tried all the standard IT consultant things (purging cache, logging out and back in, turning computer off and on, etc.) Grutness...<small style="color:#008822;">wha?  10:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

CSS margins, width help
I am trying to make template:weather box play nice with right floating infoboxes, but I am afraid I do not know enough CSS to make this happen. The basic issue is that the current weather box sets the width to 90%, which appears to be based on the browser window width, so this causes lots of white space (see here). What I would like to do is have it push itself up and reduce its width to sit nicely in this open space. I was able to do this by removing the "width:90%" statement and adding "margin-left:5%" and "margin-right:5%" in the version shown here, if the sandbox is still the same as how I left it. The problem is that now the box does not expand and contract when you change the width of the browser window, so it is more narrow in the case when there is no floating infobox on the right (see here vs. here. So, I am wondering if there is a way to have it always at a width of 90%, but have that width computed after subtracting the right floating elements, or if the only solution is to just reduce the width.  Thank you. Frietjes (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Tough one. Ambox does what you want; it has a 10% margin set, but no widht. It's trick is to expand the right-side table cell to 100%, to cause the ambox table to take all available width (minus the 10%), even next to a floating element (see Template:Ambox/testcases). But where ambox only has two cells, the weather box has many. And trying to set it's header to 100% didn't work either. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 21:20, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I got the idea for the "margin-left, margin-right" trick from ambox. A way around this might be to wrap the entire box inside another element (e.g. a div or a table) which expands the way we want it.  I will do some more testing.  Thank you. Frietjes (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * One method that works, using your hint, is to just add a very short blank row with set dimensions and at least two cells, like this. To not make it so obvious, I then removed merged it with the row above. It's sort of a hack but closer to what we want.  The only issue with this is that I had to specify the relative width for the far left cell, which isn't that bad, but is a slight change in the default format. Frietjes (talk) 23:17, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Augmenting article history
Sometimes an article has a history which is not adequately represented by the list of editors in the history tab. This creates a licensing, especially when automated tools such as PediaPress use the history information. The simplest example of this problem is when a section of article A is used as the basis for new article B. Another example is a paragraph from article A being added to article B.  The usual practise is to describe this is the edit summary when saving the edit to article B, but an automated tool can't reliably parse this edit summary. However if that isnt done, how do we 'amend' or 'augment' the history to reflect this?

We sometimes place Copied on the talk page.

Another case to consider is where article A is later deleted; currently we usually keep the history of article A public, or we record its history on the talk page.

However a note on the talk page doesn't appear to comply with the GFDL's expectation that there is a history 'section' (which we interpret as the history tab). I've placed this on the technical VP page as I am wondering if we can create a solution where the amended history is in an easily detectable location and consumable format, and this is noted on the history tab when needed. If we create pages named "Talk:[Article]/History notice" (like we do with FAQs) or "Template:History notice/[Article]" (similar to page notices), automated tools can look for its presence and include it, and a message (such as mediawiki:histlegend) can do the same. John Vandenberg (chat) 13:28, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to immediately go off track here, but before getting in to this can I ask a honest question? In all seriousness... why does this matter? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving credit where credit is due, but... what are the details of the potential licensing issue, here? I don't think that this can be adequately addressed without firmly establishing the details of the problem. Besides... according to Reusing Wikipedia content, the page can't have been undated since November 2008 in order to export text under a GFDL license, right? — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 16:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll leave the technical issue aside (just passing through), but our content is dually licensed. Reusers can export content under CC-By-SA or GFDL. If content cannot be exported under GFDL, we are required to indicate as much in the footer, history or discussion pages, but that should not apply to content copied from other Wikipedia articles, unless so indicated. (Just to note: this is not legal advice or an "official Wikimedia Foundation" statement. :)) --Maggie Dennis (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I cant see where Reusing Wikipedia content mentions November 2008.
 * As Maggie has pointed out, if an article can not be re-used under the GFDL, we are required to inform potential reusers when they cant use the GFDL. Currently we say that potential re-users will need to read a) the footer, b) the history and c) the discussion pages to determine whether they can copy a Wikipedia page.  Even for a single Wikipedia page, that could involve hours of reading.  If a human wants to copy more than a few pages, the amount of reading they must do quickly becomes ridiculous.  Automated tools can't read; even if we used consistent templates for automated tools to parse, needing to parse the article text and article discussion pages is a big job if they only want to determine whether or not additional attribution is needed.  (I think I need to find some examples where an automated tool has bungled the attribution by relying on the list of usernames...)
 * Verbatim copying under the GFDL currently can't provide a single description of what the 'history' section in the GFDL refers to. If we can include notes on the history tab, we can migrate our existing notes, recommend that contributors record credits in this way, and eventually inform consumers that they can a) link to the 'history tab' as a single record of the attribution for that article, and b) automatically construct an attribution block by combining the history information and the text on the associated "History notice" page if it exists. John Vandenberg (chat) 23:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that this is part of an overall problem of attribution of any article text that was not original text written for that article. This could include the following.
 * Text copied from another article on the same language wiki.
 * Text translated from another WMF wiki.
 * Text copied from a website that uses CC-BY-SA (or GFDL before Nov 2008)
 * Text submitted and verified by an OTRS ticket.
 * Text in the public domain.
 * Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a standard method (or even place) for indicating that some text has been copied from elsewhere. This is particularly true for translations which I have seen attributed in the article text itself, on the talk page and occasionally via history comments. I was toying with the idea of proposing a more standard mechanism whereby these attributions would be put inside a (collapsible) template on the talk page but something that could appear on the history page would be even better IMO. However, doing this on the history page would obviously require an MW software change.
 * I think that any potential re-users need to have a fairly good idea of the origin of all the article's text. Another reason that this may be important is if some of the text was published before 1923 but written by someone who died less than 70 years ago. Any re-user in a country that follows the PMA-70 rule could not legally reprint that text. Boissière (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we can transclude a note onto the history tab without any MW software change - we can use mediawiki:histlegend as a temporary solution at least.
 * Thank you for expanding on the types of attribution issues which we are not addressed in a standardised manner. I think we should build a list of good examples below.  Feel free to add examples, and replace any where you have a better example of the same problem.
 * I dont think we need to include OTRS tags verification.
 * Your final comment about "pre-1923 text which is not 70pma" is an interesting problem which frequently arises on English Wikisource, where we put a very distinctive notice on the bottom of the text. Do you know of any instances where such text has been reused in English Wikipedia?  If so, I agree that should be prominently mentioned.  English Wikipedia has a similar problem with images; although the images are clearly tagged, they are used in articles without any way for the casual reader to know the article includes images which are illegal in their country. John Vandenberg (chat) 11:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't currently have any examples of pre-1923 text though I did wonder if, for example, any of the poems of the First World War poets were reproduced substantially but I can't readily find any (poetry's not really my thing though). So this is perhaps more theoretical at present. By the way I have added a couple of examples of translation attribution to the list below. Is this the sort of thing that you are looking for? Boissière (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I've added The Sniper, Ode of Remembrance, Suicide in the Trenches and On Scratchbury Camp below. John Vandenberg (chat) 14:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Some examples of internal moving I'm aware of that created attribution problems (this is quite common when an article is split): Talk:History of Greek and Roman Egypt has the main notices, with Talk:History of Ptolemaic Egypt and Talk:Egypt (Roman province) having the corresponding notices. Sometimes the problem goes the other way (with a merge), but in this case it was a split after a long history at one location. I'm not sure it is entirely practical to attribute very old fragments of text that have been moved back-and-forth and up-and-down and all around, but certainly the movement of large chunks of text should be tracked and links made to or copies maintained of the editing history. Carcharoth (talk) 00:14, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But again... I'm not trying to be flippant here or anything, I'm honestly curious: why? What exactly is the interest in attributing specific bits of text in an article to specific users? — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 00:36, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The GFDL requires that each new author is listed. See §4.I.  We state that our text is available under the GFDL.  For pages which are only available under CC-BY-SA, we must say so.  Which means we need some consistent way of recording that a page isnt available under the GFDL. John Vandenberg (chat) 05:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * but... it doesn't say that specific bits of text need to be attributed to specific authors. Does it? We already do list each author, one way or another (as has already been outlined here), so... I guess that I'm just not clear on what the problem is. I have to be honest and admit that I don't see that there actually is anything to worry about here regardless, but it appears as though yourself and others are saying that there is some sort of legal issue here. Why should we, as editors, be concerned about issues that responsible reusers and the Foundation should consult a competent lawyer about regardless of what any editor here says or does? — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 06:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't care issues like this, why are you bothering to commenting here? Most editors don't hang around VPT.  Some of us do care about current and potential re-users, especially when they are wanting to comply with the license and want advice.  If you think this problem can be solved by a lawyer, then you havent understood the problem.   If re-using Wikipedia content requires consulting a lawyer, we've failed to achieve the goals of http://freedomdefined.org/.  I am often asked questions about reusing content, and I currently need to say that people should not re-use Wikipedia content unless they analyse the full edit history of the page and the associated talk page.  The most 'freedom' supporting lawyer in the world will say "the advice of Wikipedia is sound, which is that you can not reuse Wikipedia content unless you manually eyeball every revision of the page and its associated talk page" and their client will say "oh, well that is impractical". Do you think it is practical for anyone to reuse Wikipedia content only after reading every revision of page and talk page? John Vandenberg (chat) 07:01, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I was trying to understand where you were coming from, and what it is that you wanted to be done (I have a small interest in working on the page history functionality in the software for a slightly different reason), but... no big deal. I'll leave you to carry on here without getting in your way. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 12:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In addition to §4.I, if you're still interested, you might want to see §5 of Text of the GNU Free Documentation License, specifically where it talks about combining documents released under GFDL, indicating that "In the combination, you must combine any sections Entitled 'History' in the various original documents, forming one section Entitled 'History'...." Since our goal as editors is to create content which can be freely distributed anywhere, we do want to do our best to make sure that we are keeping it free under the licenses that we've selected. That both licenses are important is suggested by the fact that we will not accept text licensed only under CC-By-SA if the contributor is the sole copyright owner (which means that if you've published something somewhere else first, you have to dually license it. The only exception is if you co-own copyright, in which case we will accept CC-By-SA-only licenses. Of course, we do accept CC-By-SA-only licenses authored by others; this complication arises when the person placing the content here is the copyright owner.) (Again, I'm not talking for the WMF here. :)) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 17:58, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

For the record: on August 2010 I asked about this problem which affects the Collection extension, but no one commented about it. After that, it was filled the following ticket on Bugzilla: but, so far no one has commented yet. A related problem was later reported on Meta wiki and, again, no comments about it. I hope this topic will cast some light on the problem. Helder 21:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Bug 28064 - Collection extension needs some way to inform original authors of a work
 * Thanks Helder for providing some examples on other projects. You've reminded me of a few cases where a translation on English Wikisource was started using the translation which was first created on Wikipedia.  I'll dig around to identify some of these. John Vandenberg (chat) 01:32, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Examples

 * Optics, which has a note on the talk page and a separate history at Talk:Optics/Wikisource history. The results of the "contributors" tool can be seen here and, and of course there is no mention of ScienceApologist/128.59.171.155 or user:Awadewit.  The "Article Sources and Contributors" section of Book:Physics is six pages of usernames, but ScienceApologist doesnt get a mention.
 * Kubla Khan was imported from simple.wikipedia. and the attribution is a note on the talk page: Talk:Kubla_Khan. The author of the rewrite was banned user User:Ottava Rima.  He had made some edits to that page before being banned, so he does appear in Contributors
 * Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard is also an import of User:Ottava Rima's work on simple wikipedia, however this time there is no mention of him in the Contributor list, and there is no obvious attribution note on the talk page (comments mention Ottava Rima, but nobody says the article was written by Ottava Rima).
 * Nucleosol has a CCBYSASource note at the bottom which says that it includes text from wikidoc. The WikiDoc page has two editors: user:Marshallsumter is also an editor of the WP article however user:Zorkun hasnt edited the Wikipedia page, so they are not attributed.
 * Colin_Gunton includes Theopedia at the bottom, however it does not contain a link to theopedia or any authorship information, so I am 100% confident that is violating their copyright.
 * David Douillet contains a (very small) template on the talk page saying that it is a translation of the corresponding fr.wiki article (but no details of which version of that page it is translated from and certainly no author info).
 * Hélène Dorion says (at the bottom) that it "contains information from the equivalent article on the French Wikipedia" with wikilinks to the relevant article and also to the fr.wiki mainpage for some reason.
 * The Sniper (poem), Ode of Remembrance and Suicide in the Trenches include a PD-1923 text which is not PD in the country of origin which requires 70pma. (Does On Scratchbury Camp fit within PD-1923?  If not, it is a copyright infringement)
 * Part of the Portuguese Wikibooks page "Matemática financeira" was copied from the page under the same title on Portuguese Wikipedia, but the editor only mentioned the source project "Wikipédia" in the edit summary.
 * A table used on the Portuguese Wikibook on Number theory was translated from English Wikipedia, and has a link to the original article, Divisibility rule.
 * A gadget from Wikimedia Commons was copied (since Special:Import is currently bugged) to wikibooks:pt:MediaWiki:Gadget-contribsrange.js, and each author was cited in the edit summary.

Display issue with WP:AN and WP:ANI
AN and ANI are currently displaying to me with a wide margin at the right-hand side of the screen. This is affecting the whole of AN, and ANI as far down as bbb23's post starting "Also, as an aside..." in the thread titled "Dispute resolution noticeboard". This page (VPT) is displaying correctly. Mjroots (talk) 06:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to be OK now. Mjroots (talk) 07:46, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Category search / Related search
The search box in Wikipedia doesn't search categories for a search term by default. Would it be helpful to have an "(include) categories" option check box next to "search"? It seems that a "topic name" can appear as a category name but not as an article name, making it difficult to find.

A related idea: sometimes there are many nearly-identical articles about the same topic. If they have not been placed in the same category then they may be difficult to find. Google is perhaps the best tool for finding such articles. Would a "use Google to search" option be useful (if both Google and Wikipedia agreed to permit this)? LittleBen (talk) 19:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Both exist already. In the first case, don't enter any search criteria at first, but instead click the magnifying glass, and then click on Advanced. This produces a series of checkboxes headed "Search in namespaces:", so you can select and deselect any one or more of the twenty namespaces before entering your search criteria. As regards Google search restricted to Wikipedia: see here. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2011 (UTC)


 * At Special:Preferences you can choose to include categories in searches by default. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:09, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing out that you can get "Advanced Search" options by doing an empty search. Maybe most ordinary users would never work this out. Wouldn't an "Advanced" link next to the "Search" label above the search box on Wikipedia pages make it more obvious that advanced search options are available? LittleBen (talk) 03:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah, link clutter is bad. There are already way too many things to click in the Wikipedia interface. Most people will never need this either. Help:Searching explains all this and is linked from the Search results page. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know, with the instant search thing now (Open Search?), getting to the "advanced search" functionality isn't exactly intuitive. I agree that link clutter is bad, but... I had no idea about the empty search technique, for example (thanks for the tip Redrose64, by the way). — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 14:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely it's unacceptably unintuitive. Google would surely not display a "search options" link next to its search box (on Google.com) if that really were "unacceptable link clutter". LittleBen (talk) 14:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should add an "Advanced" element below "containing" in the dropdown. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 22:37, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea, to me. :) — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 23:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Surely including category and subcategory titles in Wikipedia search-box searches by default would solve a lot of problems: people search for an article called "Name" without being aware that there is already an existing category or subcategory called "Name" — the Wikipedia search box doesn't search category and subcategory titles by default (surely it should), and most mere mortals will (a) never work out that it doesn't, and (b) never work out how to use the search box to find if there is a category or subcategory called "Name". So they create a new article called "Name" without being aware that there are already many similar existing articles —— which they'd probably easily find if they could work out how to search categories. It would surely be useful if Wikipedia had a tool to prompt people who attempt to create an article called "Name" that there is already a category or subcategory called "Name", and would they like to view that first (to help them find articles similar to "Name" that already exist in the category indexes)? LittleBen (talk) 15:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

"Google wikipedia" not working
The useful facility google wikipedia has stopped working - now returns a message: "We're sorry... but your computer or network may be sending automated queries. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now." Can anything be done to revive it? JohnCD (talk) 15:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, although the page displays with some text overlapping (the radio buttons) for some reason, but only if you link directly to a search, e.g. . - Kingpin13 (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's much better than nothing, but I still usually (but not always) get the first item in the list overlapping the radio buttons even if I use the blank search form, and then the hyperlink to the first item doesn't work. (Firefox 4.0.1) JohnCD (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's probably better to Google for "site:wikipedia.org search_terms" without the quotes, otherwise (if the search query is sent thru' Wikipedia) maybe Google thinks Wikipedia is spamming it. LittleBen (talk) 11:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but the other way allows no search terms to be defined, and then you get taken to google front page, where you type in your own, but still search within the Wikipedia domain. Simply using site:en.wikipedia.org doesn't allow that - Kingpin13 (talk) 11:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

button in watch list to remove a page from it
How about some feature, that when you are looking at watchlist (the recent changes), you can cut something from the list? I like having the auto-watch enabled, but also like pruning pages that are too busy or ones where I got the reply I wanted. As of now, I have to either clikc through to that page and unwatch, or go manually to the edit watchlist. I want to be able to edit the stuff out when I'm looking at the list itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCO (talk • contribs) 23:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Add  to Special:MyPage/common.js. Ucucha 23:20, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks Ucucha! — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 23:22, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Cool for fast help. Sorry, but I can't find that page?  help?TCO (talk) 23:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Then just create it. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 00:01, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Everyone has a series of "Special:MyPage" pages that they can create. See, ...um: How to install User scripts looks like the best tutorial. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 00:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I went to the link, created the page and added the script. I can't see any change on my watchlist though. Where should I see a button.

Also, do I need to read that guide and/or just create the page at the link Ucachaca sent me to?

TCO (talk) 00:18, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you refreshed your cache? Also, you're missing an "if" at the beginning of the code in User:TCO/common.js—weird things may happen if you don't add that word.
 * Ohms law, the tutorial you give doesn't mention common.js, which is more convenient than the skin-specific pages because it is skin-independent. It may cause problems when a certain JS piece works only in one skin, but I would think that is fairly rare, and the particular piece of code I mentioned here works even on prehistoric skins like Chick. Ucucha 00:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea, I thought that there was a Project space page about user's MyPage pages in general, but I can't seem to find it. That "How to install User scripts" page is the closest thing that I could find.
 * Anyway, @TCO, you have to click the space next to a page on your watchlist, and then Ucucha's script adds an "(x)" before the page name. Not really sure why that behavior was chosen (I'd prefer the (x) to be displayed all the time), but that's OK. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 00:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I added the if. And I typed ctrl F5. I still don't see how it works. I clicked around, but can't get any x es to pop up?TCO (talk) 00:39, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What browser are you using? If it's Firefox, you can go to the JavaScript error console under Tools > Error Console; does that bring up anything? Perhaps you just need to refresh a little more aggressively.
 * Ohms law, you can also click the x in the line that begins "Show last"; that will add (x) to all pages. Ucucha 00:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, cool, I just saw the links taht it adds at the end of the Show Last page. Nice! (I'd still prefer that the (x) always show, but... *shrug*). — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 00:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too, actually—I might hack the script to make that happen. Ucucha 00:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm using Internet Explorer 8. I refreshed the shit out of it. Where do you guys click and get an x and is it a left click? Do I at least have the right page named (one where I was missing and if?)TCO (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't test IE 8 myself, but I suspect the reason then is that IE 8 is having issues. You should get an x for an individual page if you click on the timestamp to its left, and you should get a bunch of links on the line that begins "Show last" (in the middle of the blue-bordered box above the actual watchlist). Ucucha 01:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Got it working. There was a button towards the top.  AFter I hit it, then I got x's by my entries.


 * Could this be done site-wide, so that everyone has access to it rather than needing to stumble upon this info and install it? Softlavender (talk) 06:39, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It could be added as a gadget; I'm now proposing that at WP:Gadget/proposals. Ucucha 12:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Searching through my edit summaries?
Is there a way to search through my edit summaries for a specific string (besides manually paging through my history)? This discussion states that the API can do it, but I don't see anything available in the API for that. Indeed, the term "edit summary" doesn't appear in the API docs. Thanks, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 07:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * An edit summary is know to the software as a comment. |title|timestamp&uclimit=500&ucnamespace=0 My last 500 mainspace edits, such that I can CTRL-F a given term. continuing is quite ifficult for a person: you copy the ucstart |title|timestamp&uclimit=500&ucnamespace=0&ucstart=2011-02-01T17:42:28Z into the URL. If you need more functionality I think you need someone to build you / find you an appropriate toolserver tool. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 17:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Click on User contributions in the toolbox on your user page. Click on one of the limit values, like 20.  Then change   in the URL/address bar to [  ].  Then use your browser search function (Ctrl+F) as normal.  — Dispenser 18:47, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, everyone. The 5000 article limit helps to ease the pain of manually paging through history, but even with that I still have to repeat a search through three pages of results to cover all of my 10,000+ edits. I may pursue the toolserver route. For reference, I want to calculate the number of edits I have made that refer to a specific policy. For example, whenever I do an external link cleanup I always add a string that includes "WP:EL" to the edit summary, and I want to see how many of those edits I have made. There's an existing toolserver tool which counts the number of automated edits, and I assume that it accomplishes that by searching edit summaries for (TW), (HG) and so on. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 19:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You may want to try commons:MediaWiki:Gadget-rightsfilter.js. The script is able to filter your contributions list (in fact any <li> lists). See this example. Helder 21:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This doesn't count all the different shortcut varriation like WP:ELNO, WP:ELOFFICIAL, and the like which would bring the number closer to 73. The gadget version is of course the most useful since the Toolserver isn't available for non-WMF wikis.  — Dispenser 01:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Under Vector, I seem to be missing the drop-down menu that contains the "move" option
In the Vector theme, I do not appear to have a way to move a page. Has something changed? The Moving a page suggests it should be to the right of the star in my menu bar. I do not recall changing anything in my preferences that might have affected this. And I just looked in the preferences for some option that I might have changed at some time in the past but failed to find anything. Ideas? Jason Quinn (talk) 03:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to make sure: wasn't the page you tried to move move-protected? <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 12:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Now I feel stupid. It's a category. I'm guessing that categories can only be moved by admins. You are right. I see it now in main space. Thank you for your idea. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:12, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Categories cannot be moved at all actually. That which is in a category can be move to 'another' category and the old category can then be deleted (bots are usually used for this process). It cannot be 'renamed' in the strict technical sense of the concept however. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't create a new category and then manually move all pages from another category into it resulting in an empty category: that really p*ss*s off certain people (see here). Instead, there is a standard procedure for this - WP:CFR. In summary: you raise a rename request (either speedy or for discussion), and when it goes through with consensus to rename, an admin initiates the relevant bot process. -- Red rose64 (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Question about a minor change Yobot is making
Just out of curiosity, what is the actual purpose of edits like this? The infobox seems to work either way. Do the underscore characters really make a difference? Zagal e jo^^^ 18:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's part of a standardisation process. the non-underscore variant is being phased out, per consensus. - Jarry1250 [Weasel? Discuss.] 19:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But other than standardization, do these edits actually change anything? Zagal e jo^^^ 04:41, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, they prepare pages to all use the same methodology, so that the template no longer has to support multiple formats (something that might make pages more easier to parse and faster to render). Visually however there will be no change in output for the reader. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. Thanks for the reply! Zagal e jo^^^ 00:00, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

TFL-Editnotice not showing on Featured list article
I cannot for the life of me find out why TFL editnotice is not showing on the current featured list (Bodley's Librarian). I have checked TFL title and Editnotices/Namespace/Main, and the code is exactly the same as for TFA, yet it is not showing for TFL. Please help! <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 15:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Works for me ... &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, PAGENAME in comparisons needs to be compared with, "Bodley&#39;s Librarian" in this case. There a bugzilla issue on it somewhere …. ETA: bugzilla:13288 is probably describing the same effect. Cheers, Amalthea  15:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 16:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new
At some point in 2009, the search result messages were changed and IP users were no longer shown the standard MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new message when a search yielded no result.

This is highly inconvenient for all IP users, but especially non-tech-savvy IP users, since the original message contains a redlink to the article, where you could check whether e.g. the page had existed and was subsequently deleted.

Following the convenient redlink, IP users also used to be given the same MediaWiki:Noarticletext as registered users, containing an article creation link ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=[SEARCHTERM]&action=edit ) and a highly valuable link to Your first article right next to it.

Unless these changes a part of a greater plan to intentionally erect a participation barrier to discourage non-tech-savvy people from contributing to the project, we should seriously consider going back to giving IP users access to the same messages and the useful links and information they contain as we used to.

The BugZilla bug report is here. However, I myself am just tech-savvy enough to be able to complain about this issue. I have no clue what most of the things in the bug report mean. Could someone please help me out here?

Where should I go with this issue? Or is there an en.wp community consensus to intentionally make it harder for average, not-so-tech-savvy people to contribute content? If so, please point me to the discussion. --78.35.232.119 (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Similar messages can now be presented to users using the MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new-nocreate message. Someone just needs to write up whatever they want to present to the user. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:16, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, great, thanks a bunch! --213.196.214.196 (talk) 07:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But what about the MediaWiki:Noarticletext message? I'm particularly eager to again prominently present that link to WP:YFA to prospective contributors. The German Wikipedia includes that link in its de:MediaWiki:Searchmenu-new message ("Anleitung", which would roughly translate to "Starting guide"). Maybe we should just do the same, especially since we have the option of only showing it to non-autoconfirmed users.
 * At any rate, thanks again. I'm going to post my suggestion at MediaWiki talk:Searchmenu-new-nocreate and announce it at MediaWiki messages. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 07:18, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox problem
I've just written a new article, Marinoan glaciation. Another editor placed an important infobox called "Neoproterozoic Snowball Periods" into the article. The infobox seems to cause a horizontal spacing issue (at least in Safari), where I have to scroll horizontally to see the whole page. The infobox is also use on Snowball earth causing the same problem. Usually, I only have to horizontally scroll when a user puts in a really long url. Can someone take a look and explain what the problem is? The infobox looks really simple, I just can't see what the issue is. Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 16:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * First observations: the horizontal scroll bar appears in Safari and IE7, but not in Firefox 3.6, Chrome or Opera. It is definitely caused by the infobox. -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't the issue in Safari 5. What version of the browser are you using ? BTW, regardless of it's appearance, this is NOT an infobox, it pretends to be one, but it doesn't use the proper styling. I'll try to add the appropriate class, perhaps that will help. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I added a clear. This thing might need a little rework the implementation is not very pretty. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Having purged, made null edits, etc. it looks the same, see right, the bit which I've ringed with a red ellipse. Safari 5.0.5 (7533.21.1). -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Cannot reproduce it here on my mac. Someone with Windows and Safari 5 should check using the Webkit Inspector and try and pinpoint the cause by disabling styling rules. In general this happens when something makes an element on the page wider than 100% of it's parent element. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I got the same thing in Safari. I've "fixed" it by just hiding any overflow from the top div, it's not a perfect solution but it's better than nothing. - Kingpin13 (talk) 01:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that's fixed it in Safari, indeed; but Internet Exploder 7.0.5730.13 still shows the same problem. -- Red rose64 (talk) 11:00, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

"View source" on unprotected pages...
...and no section edit links either, but you can edit anyway by clicking on View source.

Has this issue been addressed yet? I couldn't find a BugZilla report on it.

I was reminded of this since for me (using Firefox 4.0.1 on Windows 7), it happened on this very page just now.

Also, after editing such a page and saving, it returns to the correct display with "Edit" at the top and section edit links. --87.78.238.109 (talk) 10:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, no one ever filed a bugreport on it, so then things don't get fixed either. It seems it cannot be accurately and reliably reproduced, which makes finding the cause difficult and finding a solution even more difficult. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I suspected this bug might be hard to track. Ah well, as soon as I stumble upon any clue myself, I'll report back (either here or directly at BugZilla). Again, thank you! --213.196.214.196 (talk) 07:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Character sets on language editions
Hey, community. Is there a page that lists all of Wikipedia's language editions and the character set which they employ? In particular, I am interested in what quantity use a character set which is Latin-based (versus, say, Cryllic). Thanks, West.andrew.g (talk) 00:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The character set will be Unicode for all of them :-).
 * But probabluy you are looking for a (major) script (Latin, Cyrillic) that language-wikipedia is in, I'll take a look at that. I added "(major)", because nothing limits e.g. the Russian WP to use only the Cyrillic script. Of course, Latin or Chinese texts in that Russian WP are most likely foreign names or quotes. -DePiep (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Adding: maybe the page Wikipedias_in_multiple_writing_systems is useful to you. Still, there will be some manual work to do, connecting language to script (currently there are 281 wiki's). Be prepared for things like "Glavna stranica / Главна страница" here. -DePiep (talk) 13:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Tool for wikilinking only at first use of a term
I would like some sort of tool to help with checking in an article that only the first use of a term is wikilinked. At present, this has to be done manually. Talking with another editor, working on Featured Articles, he said the work was "brutal". Basically, it seems like something that a tool could help with (even if not perfectly) so that editors can concentrate on reading books and writing content into articles.

Help?

TCO (talk) 04:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Please don't make that an automatic process. MOS is not policy, and I personally hate to scroll through an article searching for a wikilink. It should be left to editorial discretion where wikilinks are placed, and whether a term should be linked in a section where it makes sense to link it regardless of whether that term is linked from some section above already, especially if the previous wikilink is not visible on the monitor anymore when reading that section. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you use WP:AWB it will tell you the duplicate links, but you have to use your discretion to choose which ones stay and which ones go. --Rschen7754 06:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I will go sign up for AWB, then, thanks. TCO (talk) 07:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just remember that AWB includes the link when it appears in an infobox, persondata, tables, references or succession boxes and I would recommend if its in one of those then leave it. Its also sometimes helpful to have the link duplicated between the lede and the main article. --Kumioko (talk) 13:19, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have to use my brain anyway to decide when and what to link. I am writing featured content and just looking for something to take some grunt work out. See state reptile for an example where I do have links in the table at the bottom, a lot of them, as in tables the links don't bog you down like overlinking in text would.  BTW, if someone would please approve my AWB request, appreciate it.  I'm not the typical Wiki edit warrior looking to run through other people's articles.  I just want a tool to help me do something I'm already doing, for featured content.  TCO (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

How to remove Skype formatting when it shows up?
Skype seems to automatically format long numbers with its own template. See the last entry in this chart of recordings: La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein. The catalogue number 0094631023996 shows up in Skype code, at least on my browser (IE). How do we remove it? Softlavender (talk) 04:16, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Uninstall the Skype toolbar from your browser. Then heavily complain to Skype for installing crap on your computer. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 08:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to uninstall the Skype plug-in from my browser. I wish to remove the Skype template from showing up on this number, which is not a phone number, for anyone who has a browser on which this Skype template shows up on this number. Softlavender (talk) 09:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That's caused by a Skype plugin in your IE, not related to anything Wikipedia. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 08:42, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to uninstall the Skype plug-in from my browser. I wish to remove the Skype code from showing up on this number, which is not a phone number, for anyone who has a browser on which this Skype template shows up on this number. Softlavender (talk) 09:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't have to uninstall Skype itself, just the plugin (or toolbar) Skype installed in your IE. One of the things the plugin does is to highlight any sequence of digits on any web page which it guesses is a phone number as a Skype link. That's your Skype "template". --213.196.214.196 (talk) 09:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to uninstall the Skype plug-in from my browser. I wish to remove the Skype code from showing up on this number, which is not a phone number, for anyone who has a browser or plug-in on which this Skype template shows up on this number. Softlavender (talk) 09:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't have the plugin installed, so I'm not sure whether it could be configured to stop formatting number sequences as Skype links (I also don't know what other purpose it has besides doing just that). There is no way to "instruct" the plugin. It has a simple heuristic programming which makes it "recognize" number sequences as phone numbers, based simply on the length of the sequence and e.g. the leading zeros. The plugin does not and can not possibly actually discriminate between number sequences that are real phone numbers and ones that aren't. It simply takes anything that looks like a phone number according to its heuristic and formats it as a Skype link. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 09:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't keep copy-paste-repeating yourself. It's very rude. This is not a new problem. The Skype toolbar is crap and messes up Wikipedia articles. If you wish to avoid this, you need to uninstall it and wait for Skype to produce a version which is less crap. Not rocket science. <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► Acting Returning Officer ─╢ 09:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * TT, the only one who is rude you. Stop posting here. Softlavender is simply looking for help and I did not take anything she wrote as "rude" at all. Seriously, TT, you are not needed in this thread, and based on your immediate accusations of rudeness and your own use of rude words, not welcome either. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 09:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They have just copy-pasted the exact same refusal to accept the advice they asked for ("I don't wish to uninstall...") three times. If you don't think that's rude, that's your privilege. I do think it's rude, and that's mine. (As is posting in this thread, whether or not you 'welcome' my presence.) <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► sundries ─╢ 09:35, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * She wanted to understand the issue, which honors her. Please stop disrupting other people's communication. Your opinion as to what constitutes rudeness (and even more importantly, what doesn't) is very much your own, and your personal opinion on that is not asked for on this page, nor is the way you stated it even potentially constructive or helpful in the least. Now please take your issues and go away. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. <font color="#FFB911">╟─TreasuryTag► ballotbox ─╢ 09:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 09:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * TT was right, the repetition of the request, with no discernible attempt to acknowledge that people were trying to be responsive, is rude. Perhaps unintentionally, but still rude.-- SPhilbrick  T  19:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * He's not "right", you merely agree with him. I for one did not perceive it as rude at all, and I was the one who was talking to Softlavender. --87.79.210.22 (talk) 20:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is Skype formatting the internet to fit their product, and it is the function of the plugin. You asked for this by installing it, now deal with that decision, uninstall it, or request that they fix it. The problem is Skype's and is on your end, it has no more to do with Wikipedia than your monitor does, no matter how many times you repeat it. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  09:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There are methods to keep the code from appearing on specific or site-wide uses; I've seen them on the internet. I'm asking what would work on Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 09:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The tutorials and forum discussion I've so far found are all based on a server-side solution (e.g. insert a character or slightly change the formatting of the number sequence). What you are looking for if I understand you correctly is some way to disable the toolbar in your IE for specific websites (namely, Wikipedia). Since this option is not included in the plugin, it would require a second plugin (which as far as I can tell does not exist) to be installed in your IE, to prevent the Skype plugin from formatting numbers on Wikipedia pages. Unless you can persuade a programmer to create such a plugin, your two options are to disable the plugin while you're browsing Wikipedia (by clicking on the icon), or to uninstall it altogether. --213.196.214.196 (talk) 10:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There are ways to disable it sitewide using a  tag (which requires changes to the MediaWiki backend, which won't happen) or   tags (which require editors to insert this hack all over Wikipedia). But using HTML hacks to prevent a certain behavior isn't a good solution. You can't expect every website on the internet to throw in junk code because of a plugin most users don't use. Wikipedia's written in standard HTML and doesn't need to accommodate nonstandard plugins that do senseless things. The plugin should have a blacklist for certain sites; if it doesn't, that feature should be requested and added. —Designate (talk) 19:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I discarded that "option" in my posting above since it is not very likely that Skype will suddenly respond due to one more person complaining (the problem has been known for years and Skype has never reacted to the massive criticism by their users). --87.79.210.22 (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What does this plugin do that is actually useful to you? —Designate (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Read the thread. Softlavender apparently likes to have the plugin installed and was looking for a way to disable it on specific websites (ie. Wikipedia). --87.79.210.22 (talk) 23:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought you were one of the people who had it installed. Assume my question was directed at Softlavender then. —Designate (talk) 00:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why no one wished to answer my question, but another editor fixed the problem without ado. He added the  codes that no one here was willing to describe. I don't know why no one on this thread wished to tell others how to do it. Softlavender (talk) 03:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but this is ridiculous. Editors have answered your question multiple times above and you just repeated it, instead of actually acknowledging. We should not be adding excessive HTML/CSS codes to articles so that our functioning Wikipedia can mesh with your non-functioning plugin. An editor changed the formatting for one article that you already know about, but what about every other article on the site? What phone numbers are you hoping to find on Wikipedia? Jacques Offenbach will likely not answer, as he died in 1880. Contact your provider and inform them that Wikipedia is not a social/email site, and that phone number formatting is not helpful here. Please also keep in mind that this is a volunteer project, and the attempts to appease you above were not made by paid employees, so they should be shown a little more courtesy. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  04:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. Reverted. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;•&thinsp;Contribs) 06:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Did a little research (I typed the word "Skype" into the search box, Google has taught us that this is research) and found Village pump (technical)/Archive 90 [sic], Village pump (technical)/Archive 71 & Village pump (technical)/Archive 73. Is there anyway to get them to blacklist Wikipedia, or a way for MW to blacklist itself? This Skype plugin just causes problems here. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  03:50, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * With regards to the  tag, it's certainly technically possible. It either needs to be done on the MediaWiki end (meaning a Bugzilla report) or perhaps it can be done on Wikipedia's side, which means someone with admin rights could change a file somewhere. I don't know enough about the software to say for sure who can do it. —Designate (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, for the record here, I sent an email to Skype customer service and requested they blacklist all WMF sites for the reasons mentioned, and linked to the relevant discussions. I made sure they knew it was not an official WMF request, but rather one on behalf of the editors and users. I know there's a rule somewhere about posting email, so I'll summarize that John Richmond N. from Skype Customer Service informed me that "We will help you with this" and "will definitely look into it" (in that order), so who knows? No harm in trying.▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  17:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Without wishing to reward ugly petulance, I'd guess that the meta solution could be implemented in her account's custom CSS? There's little virtue in accreting junk code on wikipedia merely to satisfy the foibles of a poorly designed plug-in and affecting precious few pages. Perhaps someone with more sympathy could provide advice along these lines to the OP. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The meta tag is HTML so it won't work in the CSS. There's probably a CSS hook (an ID/class) in the Skype decoration, depending on how it's coded, but someone with the plugin installed will have to figure that out. —Designate (talk) 19:56, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Uploading files from smartphones/tablets
Why don't we make it possible and easy to take a picture from an iPhone, iPad, or similar device and upload it onto Wikipedia. Let's do this ASAP, that means by tomorrow if it can be done. This does not require any policy changes, only the technical ability to do so. I can't imagine any opposition to such an improvement. Who's on board with me here. Sebwite (talk) 14:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * WikiSnaps, I made it myself. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to work on the app atm, and it is in severe need of 'interface design' skills. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 17:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Why, what's happening tomorrow? <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► Acting Returning Officer ─╢ 17:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, next week, I'll be traveling to Italy for 2 weeks. I travel a lot. And now when I go somewhere by airplane, I bring nothing more than my iPad and iPhone to access the internet. Editing text on these is harder than on a laptop or desktop, but is still possible. But uploading anything is impossible. It would be nice if I could be able to upload a picture of something if, for example, I am in the location of a landmark with a Wikipedia article, but the article has no picture. The way things are now, I have to wait until I get home to do that. I'm sure many others feel the same way. Sebwite (talk) 03:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I know of one alternative iOS browser that does allow the upload of photos and other files. I have no interest in the app except as an end-user, but to avoid any appearance of being promotional, I'll drop a note on your talkpage directly. Cheers —DoRD (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Default sorting for sortable wikitables
Is there a default option for sortable wikitables, to enable default sorting by the first field or the field called "title" or "date" or whatever? Obviously it is good to fix these manually, but large tables can be confusing and many editors add items to the bottom, or to the wrong place. If there is a default option, we could also have bots sort these tables automatically (even in non-"sortable" tables). If this doesn't exist, does anyone else think it would be useful? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  12:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not currently, but MediaWiki 1.18 will have new sortable tables code implemented in jQuery and that WILL be able to set default sorting per column. I'm not sure if the option to set initial sorting was also imported into our code, but the original tablesorter.com code that we will use does seem to have that option. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply, I can't see why they would use the new code and take out this desirable function. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  07:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

RefToolbar extra sapce
Copied from WP:Help desk

I've had this problem for a while now, and it appears that I'm not the only one. What generally happens is that upon using the RefToolbar to insert one of the templates, a space is inserted in a seemingly random location within the edit box. However, from personal experience, it appears that if you do this multiple times within the same section or article, the space will almost always appear in the same (but wrong) location. I've taken to using the "Show changes" to find that sapce before saving, but it is probably a problem that ought to be fixed, as it seems to be affecting other editors: ex. here, it is obvious that RefToolbar was used, and a space appeared inside the word "from".  Bramble  claw  x   15:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Template math inconsistency
I am using IE9. I hope I am at the right place to ask this question. In many of the small city articles ( Greenville, Iowa is example used ) I have been seeing a difference when using the Infobox settlement and adding the auto feature for population density. Using the parameter | population_density_sq_mi= auto with the parameters  |area_total_sq_mi = 0.2 and |area_total_km2 = 0.5 and |population_total = 75 it returns 375/sq mi (144.8/km2) in the Density line. In the Demographics section of same article with the use of the template Pop density for example it returns 380/sq mi (140/km2). If I place the auto feature in the Infobox settlement to the parameter |population_density_km2 = auto it returns 388.5/sq mi (150/km2). When I used it returns 150/km2 (390/sq mi).

Using my calculator 75 people / 0.2 square miles =375 or 75 people / 0.5 kilometers squared = 150. It seems to me like there is a math error in the templates (probably the Pop density). This difference makes an article confusing when using both templates. Being from the United States the use of square miles density is preferred. Can someone explain why the differences and/or make changes to the templates to correct this? — Rife Ideas  Talk  19:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably best take this to Template talk:Convert. I made a testcase, but I don't have enough time to figure out how these conversion templates work. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:16, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really knowing what you are talking about and just looking at the numbers it seems there is not a maths error per se but just that one template is rounding to the nearest 10. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  20:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * RifeIdeas, you have pointerd to two separate differences. First one is: What to input for area, sqmi or km2? -- both the infobox and population templates have options to enter the right unit and to point to a preferred main unit (say sqmi in USA). (Of course, outcome will & should be different if you enter like "0.2 km2" versus "0.2 sqmi"). See their documentation infobox settlement, pop density. The second one is: as Rambo's Revenge noted, the pop density does rounding to the nearest 10fold (see the 2010 census section in your example article). Then, in the 2000 census section, the editor has calculated the numbers by themselves (no template), which explains why there are decimals. More on rounding: when figures are that low (0.5 sqmi), allowing decimals in the density is too much of precision, since the area is rounded too (more precicely written the area could be 0.46 to 0.54 sqmi, which would give big differences in density). -DePiep (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have changed the 2010 manual calculations into pop density calc. So is rounded, which is correct. Cannot explain old numbers, which were calculated manually. -DePiep (talk) 16:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC) In the example Greenville, Iowa, that is. -DePiep (talk) 16:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the rounding explanation to the 10ths problem with small community areas. In all of the cities, I did previously, with larger areas and populations the numbers in the infobox settlement and pop density matched (or at least the rounding was precise to the elimination of values less than the 1's place). To inform you I do understand the differences when entering km2 versus sqmi, I just was pointing out that I had tried all variables before coming here for an answer. To be more concise DePiep you changed the 2000 not the 2010 numbers where I did use the pop density template. I guess I could of been more precise in the explanation of my 1st post example, I did not even look at the 2000 census data numbers. I am wondering if maybe because of the discrepancy between the two templates is the reason why the previous editor (from the 2000 census era not me) changed the figures manually instead of using the pop density template. Does anyone think that the same should be done for small area communities or should there be a fix in the pop density template? Obviously the coding for the infobox settlement works correctly even for small area communities. Could the same coding can be transfered to the pop density template? These coding suggestions are well above my level of code understanding. Thanks for all the help.-- Rife Ideas  Talk  18:52, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, so we've zoomed in to the points of problem. IMO, the manually entered values (e.g. for [ The population density was 507.9 people per square mile (199.5/km²) 2000], "The population density was 507.9 people per square mile (199.5/km²)") I cannot explain as it is way of the calculated rounded value of 470 (from 465). So these manual values I do not trust, though might be OK elsewhere of course.
 * Remains: do we accept the rounding to 10's when using pop density? I think the infobox settlement is wrong here. If the area has one significant digit (the "2" in 0.2), you cannot use three significant digits in the outcome (as in "465", given input "93" people in 2000). The precision of that "5" is not in the input. Because, again: the input area could have been 0.24 to 0.15 sqmi (both leading to the 0.2 rounded input). That would mean the pop density could have been 93/0.24=388 p/sqmi TO 93/0.15=620 p/sqmi. See: the outcome is 388 TO 620. Then detailing to 465 (not 470) is too precise for what is supported. Actually, even "470" is suggesting non-existing preciseness. "500" would be better, because we do not know it more precise! From here follows that the infobox should be changed (less significant digits), not the pop density calc. -DePiep (talk) 01:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have re-discovered that the pop density template does return a more exact number than the 10's place with larger area cities. I experimented and determined that a high or low population has no effect on the difference between the two templates. Larger area examples Spencer, Iowa and Oskaloosa, Iowa both return a density down to the 1's place with the pop density template agreeing with the infobox settlement template (minis the rounding of values less than the 1's place in the infobox). Those two larger cities also have the area entered with the same precision (to the 10ths decimal point), as smaller area city like Greenville, Iowa. With this in mind it does not seem logical that a more precise area (to the hundredths decimal point) is needed to return a precision down to the 1's place in the pop density. Therefore I still do not understand why the pop density returns such an imprecise density just because of the fact that the area is less than 1 square mile. Whatever the reason I still think there should be a change in the coding of the pop density with maybe a rounding to eliminate the values less than the 1's place. — Rife Ideas   Talk  00:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

This is a minor edit (what's this?) in a new tab
On the editing screen, would it be possible to open the link in "This is a minor edit (what's this?)" in a new tab? I realize that those with JavaScript enabled will get a warning before they leave the page, but it is still very easy to accidentally click this link. Even if you are clicking it on purpose, why would you want to lose your edit to read it? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  04:08, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I mean would it be possible to change the edit screen so that this behavior is automatic, I've just realized that was unclear, apologies. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  05:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ditto for the Edit summary link just above the edit summary box, and perhaps for the links in the two sentences above that. More good ways to lose your edit by mistake. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree with these being new page (tab) links, but you should consider changing browsers: Chrome lets me successfully click on these (including Cancel even) and then go back and loose nothing. (I haven't checked the ability of other browsers or specific versions of Chrome, just my latest current release 12.0.742.100.) Mark Hurd (talk) 10:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Which browser are you using? I have several installed (on Windows XP) and most (Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera) have the characteristic that when you've read Help:Minor edit, etc., the "back" button takes you back to the editing screen without loss of your edit. Under Internet Explorer 7, however, you do lose your edit, which is one reason I mostly use Firefox.
 * It's possible to open almost any page in a new tab, but the methods vary between browsers. Considering IE7, Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera, in each of these you can right-click the link and select "Open Link in New Tab" (the actual menu text may differ slightly). In four of these five an alternative is to press and hold the "Ctrl" key and then left-click the link; but in Opera, the equivalent is to press and hold the Shift key and then left-click the link. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer a solution that works for all browsers whether or not they have a fully-functioning "Back" command, and for all users whether or not they know how to use "Open Link in New tab" and/or "Back". -- John of Reading (talk) 14:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As for manually opening in a new tab, the idea I'm putting across is that I've never actually hit that button on purpose, so I don't yet know that I want it to open in a new tab at the moment of clicking. And while many modern browsers allow you to go back and forth without loss of session data, why wouldn't this be desirable? Is there a scenario where someone wants to save their edit, and also wants to read about minor edits, but another open tab will upset them? Versus the stress of any editor thinking they lost their session data, even inaccurately. While it's not life-saving, I think it's just logical functionality. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  17:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Firefox lets you right click on a link and open it in a new window. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 05:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ... as I stated above. However: there is a solution to the problem as clarified by JohnnyMrNinja - we need to persuade the powers that be that the relevant anchor elements should each be given the  attribute. That is to say, at present the HTML generated by MediaWiki contains these elements:

<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_summary" title="Help:Edit summary">Edit summary</a> <a href="/wiki/Help:Minor_edit" title="Help:Minor edit">what's this?</a>
 * and they should become:

<a href="/wiki/Help:Edit_summary" title="Help:Edit summary" target="blank">Edit summary</a> <a href="/wiki/Help:Minor_edit" title="Help:Minor edit" target="blank">what's this?</a>
 * This  trick is fairly common, and for browsers which support tabs, it forces a new tab to be opened when the link is clicked. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just spotted something. To the right of, and slightly below, the links in question, there is a link titled "Editing help (opens in new window)". Viewing the page source shows that the HTML for this is

<a target="helpwindow" href="/wiki/Wikipedia:Cheatsheet">Editing help</a> (opens in new window)
 * which actually opens the page in a new tab, not a new window. So, the desired effect is already coded for, we just need to get the attribute  added to the other two. These are held in MediaWiki:Summary and MediaWiki:Minoredit but I don't know where the "Editing help (opens in new window)" message is held, nor how these bits and pieces are put together to form the editing "form". -- Red rose64 (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Babel boxes - enwikipedia and commons

 * Why:

I just found invitation on my commons talk page, including info about language boxes. I used them on commons page and decided to place them also on enwiki userpage. Unfortunately pl-N template was not working. I created - probably it is somewhere, duplicate will be deleted and I will be left with red template.


 * What:

Is it possible to unify babelboxes between enwiki and commons? Bulwersator (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The Babel feature unfortunately varies between languages. The xx-N form is one which is not universally supported; but usually, leaving off the "-N" part has the desired effect. Thus, should be equivalent to . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redrose64 (talk • contribs)
 * There is no way to have centralized/shared templates at this moment in time. It's probably also a bit of a maintenance hell to ever create one. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 17:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The babel extension uses a standardised syntax to create user language templates, although it's not enabled on either Wikipedia or Commons. Graham 87 16:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Patrolling
Hello there. How can I patrol an article that is more than 30 days long? It doesn't have a "Mark this page as patrolled" button. Thanks. –BruTe Talk 14:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You can't; this is a feature of the software. But see New pages patrol/Unpatrolled articles - apparently a bot catches them and makes sure they appear in Category:Unreviewed new articles. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Template talk:Archive list long exceeded max value of 36 at WP:UNDELETE
Hi. Please refer to Template talk:Archive list long. I hope someone can find the time to look into this. Thanks. --Trevj (talk) 22:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed... for now. That template will ned an overhaul in the future. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 23:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * for fixing it so promptly. --Trevj (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

RFC: implementing Manual of Style restructure
Editors may be interested in revisiting this RFC, now that there is discussion of its implementation: "Should all subsidiary pages of the Manual of Style be made subpages of WP:MOS?" It's big; it's technical; and it promises huge improvements. Great if everyone can be involved. N oetica Tea? 00:57, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

#if: &&?
I'm trying to do this:

meaning if BOTH foo and bar are defined, then abcdefg.

How do I do that?

doesn't work; if either foo or bar is defined then abcdefg and i don't want that.

Jcao219 (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If foo, then, if bar as well, then abcdefg: -- John of Reading (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There is also a both template, if that appeals.--Kotniski (talk) 12:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much. Jcao219 (talk) 12:44, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * We ought to ask the MediaWiki tech gang to add logical operators, though. That'd be nice to have. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 17:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I doubt they will do that, at least not until they add an actual scripting language to wikicode. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 23:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And if you are a bit proficient in ParserFunctions, you can actually do something like that by converting values to numbers with #if and then use #ifexpr to do the logic. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * If both might be useful. It short circuits so that if the first condition is false the second condition will not be evaluated.&#32;– droll  &#91;chat&#93;  04:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

No warning on page move by admin to salted title
Could it be arranged that if an admin tries to move a page to a title which has been protected against creation, the system gives some kind of "Are you sure? this title is protected" warning? JohnCD (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That would have to be done in MediaWiki. To request a feature, go to Bugzilla. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 22:18, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Nested templates and parameter passing
Is there any way (magic word or something) to pass all the parameters of another template into a template nested within it, rather than having lots of parameter1 = parameter2 = , etc.? What I have in mind is, for a template that has tons of parameters, to tuck away some of its code into a nested template. So, for instance, rather than

...

to have something more like

where the rest of the code is tucked away inside of. The parameters of the main template, however, are not within the scope of the nested template (as far as I can tell), and if I have to pass all 20+ of the parameters into that template, it doesn't really save any space, which is why I was wondering if it's possible to just make all of 's parameters available to.

<b class="IPA">r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ anaɢ</b> (talk) 19:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Similar to the  parameter in a UNIX Bourne shell script. No, there isn't. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. It's not really necessary, I was just curious about it. Best, <b class="IPA">r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ anaɢ</b> (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your third code example is working, I used it in infobox IPA. But I think I got your question wrong. -DePiep (talk) 23:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, get it: no typing but keeping them within scope ... no, did not find that. -DePiep (talk) 23:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

references -- a question to the programmers
For some months already, it is discussed in Bugzilla to improve the references markup. Currently, you never know, if a ref tag refers to the last sentence or to more than one sentences. In other words: the references markup is based too much on footnotes in printed books, but does not use the advantages of digital media. An example:
 * This is the first sentence. This is the second sentence.

Now comes the solution, which has been proposed in Bugzilla some months ago:
 * This is the first sentence.

Do you seriously pursue this issue, which has been considered very important by many Wikipedians? By the way: This solution would allow to let pop up a box with the references when moving the mouse pointer in an article. Even better: this solution would allow to implement a ISBN/DOI/… lookup in order to allow slim source code:
 * This is the first sentence.

But, when do you implement this urgent issue? The postponed implementation prevents Wikipedia from being a reliable source. 85.179.38.72 07:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I suggest to post it in bugzilla Bulwersator (talk) 09:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been requested, but is currently a low priority with no recent discussion (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18231). If a reference is only for part of a paragraph, there should be another reference or a before it, but these are not always added (or are removed). Peter E. James (talk) 13:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There are, in fact, recent discussions (probably nourished by this discussion). You can also vote for this issue to be resolved by voting at Bugzilla. 85.179.39.149 (talk) 17:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There has been no concrete discussion of how such a system would render. Where does the page number go— in-text, in the reference backlabel or as a shortened footnote. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 17:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Kudos for thinking of possible improvements to references. I don't think that I support this method of wrapping text, though. What happens with multiple references, and references that overlap? I'm not sure that the parser could be made to handle all of the possible permutations that this form could take on. Plus, making reference parameters into XML style attributes is not something that I'm terribly excited about. If that's done then any additions or changes that need to be made to the parameters become an issue that needs to be addressed in code rather than something that could be addressed on site. That's not a pleasant thought. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 18:22, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Can I 'embed'(?) a Google Earth '.kml' datafile in an article ?
Hello. Once again sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place (yet again). New to Wikipedia editing and just trying to learn things quickly !

I'm currently experimenting with the possibility of providing enhanced locational information for readers interested in contemporary naval vessel home port deployments. I've asked in the naval section of the military history wikiproject, and in Wikipedia Help desk, but seemingly this technical issue is not in their ken. Basically, I'd like to know if it's possible to use the embedded file option in the edit browser bar, or otherwise by some (hopefully user friendly technical means), to 'embed' or otherwise link to a '.kml' (keyhole satellite metadata file) usable in Google Earth to store a list of GE global place-marks, relating to the vessels being discussed in the article, which might typically for example be about a class of vessels rather than just a single vessel.

I appreciate it's possible to use the co-ordinates framework protocol/code to make a single place-mark link to the 'Geo Hack' page which then has a further link to GEarth in its 'links-to' table. However, that link I've found is subject to some serious failings

(a) if you use the 'open' link some species of a 'preferential' software 'glich' takes over, which instead of taking you to the co-ordinates you've been given, goes instead to the location of the nearest 'existing' Google Maps place mark location, which is typically miles away, even though you've just opened GEarth instead, but which in GMaps would then ask you 'did you mean this place instead ?' and ;

b) if instead you select the 'with meta data' option, a host of embedded additional materials (not however including the view date timeline preference and altitude of viewpoint data which the editor would like the reader to appreciate)is added when it opens.

Accordingly, it seems to me (as a simpleton user) that the only user friendly option would be to allow the reader to download a keyhole metadata file ('kmz')(from within the article) created bespoke by the editor with just the information on it relevant to the vessels and places dealt with in the article. This is surely preferable to linking to a external site instead where the continued availability, reliability, accuracy of the data etc. couldn't be easily monitored by any wiki-editor.

I can't believe but that this kind of issue re: the practical linking of wikipedia article information, which has an especial relevance to a physical place or places location(s) on Earth, to an ability to visualise those locations in Google Earth (or possibly some other equally well used application, including historical views - is there one?)hasn't arisen in many many guises before. I'm hoping therefore that you have a worked out solution ? I promise that I've look for it for hours in editing guideline materials and elsewhere, without success. sorry for rambling. thank you.

John Eight Thirty-two (talk) 14:18, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * kml and kmz files cannot be uploaded, because IE6 cannot distinguish them from HTML files, and HTML files are a security problem, see also 26059. You can use coordinates templates, which will link you to a the mapping service of your choice for any coordinate. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:34, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Strange error uploading images
I am trying to upload a GIF image and when I press upload it comes up with Any ideas? Island Monkey talk the talk 19:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Explaining MIME type is complicated... but what it basically means is that despite the name ending with ".GIF" (or ".gif"), the internal file structure does not match any accepted format for a .GIF image file. So, is it really a GIF image, or is it actually something else (such as a JPEG) which has been renamed?
 * For example, I occasionally take a Microsoft .BMP file and change it into a .GIF - but I don't use Windows Explorer to rename the file, because that won't change the internal format. Instead, I open the file in MS Paint, go for "Save As...", and after the "Save as type" prompt, there is a drop-down menu; in there I select "GIF (*,GIF)" and then click the "Save" button. That will both convert it and rename it. -- Red rose64 (talk) 19:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

FontSizer: A tiny font size control widget
I've been working on a font size control widget. The basics are done. What is left is making it remember it's setting. As this is my first javascript "from scratch", I am keen to find out if I missed something, wether I can do things better, etc. Only small bug that I couldn't fix: the buttons are slightly too large in Firefox. To test, put the following in your vector.js page: The widget works in Vector skin only. Any feedback is appreciated. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 18:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use onclick in the raw html if I were you. Instead use jquery to find the ID of the elements you just added and then use the .click functionality of jquery
 * Wrap the functions that read or change the STRUCTURE of the html into a $(document).ready, otherwise the document may not be present yet for editing sometimes. (goes for bodytag and the $('div#p-personal ul').
 * Wrap all code into a jquery context. See for instance this core module.
 * Especially the first 2 are important. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Changes made. Is  not a shortcut for $(document).ready? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> —  Edokter  ( talk ) — 14:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Now I need a way to have it remember it's setting across pages/sessions, like the sidebar remebers it's state. Any pointers? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 15:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Found .cookie. All done. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 21:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Great feature! Thank you!  tatasport  my talk  13:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Table sorting and emdashes
Apparently the sorting code (in class="sortable") is completely confused by the presence of em-dashes within a table. For an example, see:

With em-dashes: Template:New Jersey Devils roster

Without: Template:New Jersey Devils roster

As explained, With em-dashes it sorts correctly the first time you click it. The second time the numbers go 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 34, 33, etc. The third time, 1, 10, 11, 14, etc. The fourth time it sorts correctly in reverse order. It repeats from there. — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;•&thinsp;Contribs) 18:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And since when is an emdash a number ? The software is not that smart :D and will fallback to alphanumerical sorting when it encounters the emdash first. See also Sorting. Summary: "Use only one datatype per column, use sorttemplates if you use multiple types." With forced sorttypes per column in MediaWiki 1.18, it will probably be a tad better. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

When creating sortable tables, there can be issues with how a column sorts. See Help:Sorting for a complete overview.


 * Columns that mix alpha and numerical data will sort alphabetically— this can be resolved by using nts.
 * When using general text with and without wikilinks, use sort.
 * To sort dates, use dts.
 * For sorting names in the format last, first use sortname. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 22:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I sorta see the point behind "since when is an emdash a number ?", but... hyphens work, so why shouldn't en- and em-dashes also work? It doesn't seem odd, to me, that a dash of some sort would be used in a table with numbers. I don't see that as the same sort of thing as mixing numbers and alphabetic characters, for example. Not trying to create work for you guys, but... this seems like an easy oversight to rectify, when someone can get to it. (ps.: thanks for the tips, Gadget) — <span style="font-family: Courier New, monospace ;font-style:italic">V = IR (Talk&thinsp;&bull;&thinsp;Contribs) 01:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A hypen works because it doubles as a minus sign in numbers. To explain further how it works..... The sort script looks at the contents of the first cell in a column to determine the 'datatype' of the entire column. So as soon as the dash reaches to top of the column, by pressing the sort arrow, the sort algorithm will then assume that the entire column is alphanumerical instead of numerical upon the next sort request. The new tablesorter in MediaWiki 1.18 allows you to define a datatype for the entire column, preventing the sorter from having to make a guess based on the first cell in a column, thus fixing the problem of ambiguity. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:08, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

History diffs
It would be a good idea for an admin to change mediawiki:histfirst and mediawiki:histlast to Oldest and Newest respectively to be consistent with the "older" and "newer" history buttons. I've started a bug report to get this changed project-wide but in the meantime it can only be changed on a per wiki basis. <font color="#21421" >Marcus <font color="#CC7722" >Qwertyus   19:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * While it's simple to change once one knows the relevant page names (thank you for that, Marcus Qwertyus), I think that this should probably gain more consensu first. Please also note that this page is NOT a place to make such requests, although if an admin had trouble finding the relevant pages, this may have been a place for the admin to ask for help. I'd recommend going to the Administrator's Noticeboard with this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

slow/error
Cannot contact the database server: Unknown error (10.0.6.50) -- is this just me? it came up several times today. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:48, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not just you, "This Wiki is having a problem". Strangely I only had issues with article space. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  10:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * See Current Performance and Availability Status -- John of Reading (talk) 10:10, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Back page rebounds me to the page I'm leaving
I've only noticed this on Safari. The problem goes like this...

I'm on some page, let's say the Help Desk. Someone asks a question about an article without linking to it, Chicken coop for example. So I pop to the top of the page, put Chicken coop into the search box and hit enter. I go to the article, read what I want, and then hit Cmd-[ to go back to the Help Desk. What happens is that I'll go back to the HD but only for a fraction of a second until I get put back on the Chicken coop article. What I end up doing generally is that I will hit Cmd-[ to go back and then, as fast as I can, hit Cmd-. to stop the page from loading. If I catch it right, I stop back on the HD. If I miss it, I end up on either the Chicken coop article or the standard WP search page. It doesn't matter if I put in the term correctly or go through a redirect, the result is the same: rebounding back.

I'm using Safari 5 and Mac OS X 10.5.8. Any idea what causes this or how I can stop it?

Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 14:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * PS This has been going on for some time now and is not a recent thing. Dismas |(talk) 14:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You are probably going back to a redirect page example User_talk:JeepdaySock redirect to User talk:Jeepday, if you follow the link to User_talk:JeepdaySock it will take you to User talk:Jeepday, when you back-up one you go back to User_talk:JeepdaySock which will take you back to User talk:Jeepday. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:54, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it won't. Redirects are handled internally to Wikipedia, it's not a browser redirect. Note that the URL remains 'JeepdaySock' even after the redirect. --Golbez (talk) 16:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I've noticed this problem with anchor redirects. I don't have an example at the moment, but if I go to, say, Example and it redirects to Other example, then in the browser, it will actually go to the URL for Other example and then jump to the anchor for "Example section", therefore creating two entries in the browser's history, which would end up causing the problem you are experiencing. However, as mentioned above by Golbez, this would not happen to normal redirects like the one that Jeepday provided since most redirects are handled internally and the browser is not aware of that.


 * Does this problem still happen to you in another browser? Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  19:08, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I was unclear. I've only noticed this in Safari.  I often use Firefox on Windows machines and have not seen the same there.  I just tried it with Firefox on my Mac and that acts normally.  It's just Safari.
 * And no, this has nothing to do with anchor redirects. Dismas |(talk) 20:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The search seems to go to a URL such as http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Chicken+coop or https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Chicken+coop, but this doesn't create an entry in the history or appear as the referring URL (in either Firefox 5 or Safari 5 on Windows Vista). Peter E. James (talk) 21:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC) Correction: it appears in the history tab, but is not accessible from the back button. Peter E. James (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Category:Images lacking a description
In Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories, I see that Category:Images lacking a description is listed as being populated by 63 files; yet when I open Category:Images lacking a description, I don't see any. Additionally, the Category:Images lacking a description page shows that it's in, even though the only content of the page is a Category redirect tag, which shouldn't place the categories in if they're empty. Any ideas what's happenning? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:23, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No real explanation but just trying to pin down the problem:  renders as  which currently says 63 for me. This is non-zero so Category redirect adds Category:Wikipedia non-empty soft redirected categories to Category:Images lacking a description. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * So where can I find these 63 files? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Its a known bug, see 16036, the category is empty, however the cat_pages and cat_files fields in the database where not updated correctly after a deletion.
 * Is there some reasonable workaround? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * From the bug report talk - Anyhow, the upshot of all this is - If you add a single image to that category, view that category page (this is the important part, you need to view the category page while it has the single image in it), and then remove that image from the category, it will probably reset the number of files in that category count - no shell required.  Ron h jones (Talk) 21:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it worked. Thank you. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

WHICH link is blacklisted?????

 * Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist.
 * To save your changes now, you must go back and remove the blocked link (shown below), and then
 * To save your changes now, you must go back and remove the blocked link (shown below), and then

Right. "Shown below". Sure.

Why can't a notice like this say specifically WHICH link is blacklisted??? Is there some way to tell, short of deleting them each one-by-one and trying to save the changes?? Michael Hardy (talk) 05:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * When I try this, I see another line of text just underneath the big pink message box, saying, "The following link has triggered a protection filter: ". -- John of Reading (talk) 10:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Correcting a table
In Los Angeles City Council there is a table whose syntax eludes me. I need help in making a correction. In District 7, the name and dates should be: Howard W. Davis, from 1927 to 1935, then add in Will H. Kindig from 1935 to 1937, then another term for Howard W. Davis, from 1937 to 1939. I should appreciate anybody's doing this task for me. Thanks so much, your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅, see . -- Red rose64 (talk) 15:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Low Bandwidth pages
A suggestion has been made to me about making a wiki page that is accessible to users that have limited bandwidth. I realize it is possible to view pages as text only, but is it possible to create entries that appear as text only- or, should I just direct/instruct people to access the page in a text only mode?

please let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.8.33 (talk) 14:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Try http://en.m.wikipedia.org. The mobile version of Wikipedia. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

ResourceLoader updated today
Roan deployed an update to ResourceLoader today that moves jQuery back into the head of the document (rather than loading after the document loads). This will allow us to fix numerous "Flash of Unstyled Content" bugs where the interface changes after the page has already loaded. By setting the position parameter of a ResourceLoader module to 'top', you can now have it load pre-emptively. Obviously, this should only be done for Javascript that affects the user interface, since otherwise it just adds extra overhead which slows down page loading (and defeats the whole purpose of ResourceLoader). Although this change should not break any existing Javascript, if anyone notices any problems, please contact me or RoanKattouw. Kaldari (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

RSS feed for current events page
For me the Wikipedia current events page is a very valuable news resource. To be able to access this information along with all my other news subscriptions would be great.

Personally I subscribe to several (many) online news feeds, but some news sources that I find otherwise interesting I no longer read as they do not provide a news feed. I no longer view them, as visiting these (several) sites each day and determining if I have seen the articles before or not seems like wasting too much time for sources that do not regularly have stories of interest to me. If these sites had an RSS feed, I could aggregate them with all my other stories, and by just scrolling past the headlines that do not interest me my news reader marks them as viewed, so they no longer bother me.

I do however still consult the Wikipedia current events page, as I often find stories of interest that I get nowhere else, it would be much nicer to have this source aggregated with my other news.

I understand there are a few technical problems to implement a feed for this page, but I can't imagine them being very hard to overcome (at least one person has personally provided a feed for this page in the past by parsing it and selecting the parts to publish in the feed) and the benefit to people online seems high for this. I noticed that not only is subject periodically discussed, but when searching for such a feed on google; I noticed that many other people are looking for this.

(Discussion started here)

Karderio (talk) 04:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have created a feed for WP:ITN – the part that is shown on Main Page, it's at . Doing the same for the whole Portal:Current events would pose some difficulties, especially because of readers like Google Reader, because it would probably mean that every edit to an item would show in the feed. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 06:04, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Technical support for the ka.wiki
Hello, sorry to bother, but in my opinion this is the only place, where I can get help. Fora a rather long we have been trying to enable the transliteration in ka.wiki, but all the times we had failed. This time we have the script -, but we can't enable it for the edit area and searchbox. Maybe anyone will please be so kind to explain how this must be done? Thank you beforehand!--Diaoha (talk) 08:55, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is this in ka:მედიავიკი:Common.js ? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:52, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems to not yet be in ka:მედიავიკი:Common.js. I'm going to take a look at the script in the next days and will try to get it working - Hoo man (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you! It will be wonderful! About the common.js, we have already tried to simply copy it into vector.js, but all in vain. I'll be totally grateful, if you help us with this problem!--Diaoha (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I figured out how the script can be enabled, but I haven't yet applied it. It would be fine if you could define how you wish to have it deactivatable - Hoo man (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, in my opinion a button in preferences would be absolutely fine. During the edit of an article, I think a checkbox would suite (Same with the searchbox, a little checkbox would also suit).--Diaoha (talk) 14:48, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, going to have a look at how a I can get that done, but for now I'm going on vacation (till June 11th), please leave any further notices directly on my talk page, cause is one will get archived sooner or later - Hoo man (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

reftools/ "cite book" bug
I'm not quite sure why, but often (not most times, but fairly regularly, and perhaps repeatedly when the same article/book combination are used), I get my page number dash (or hyphen, or whatever) replaced with an accented a. this is a typical diff, I've been able to attempt to readd the source from reftools, verify that I had entered "121-" in the form, and clearly "121â" was what was inserted into the article. Is this known? Is there a workaround? --joe deckertalk to me 17:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't noticed this myself. Are you using a hyphen or an en-dash? Kaldari (talk) 18:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And what browser (and version) are you using ? Might be helpful information since this is a javascript tool. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:04, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. My simplest reproducable case is to go to the article Ahmet Ümit, use the book form with the URL  http://books.google.com/books?id=psdiAAAAMAAJ and page number "1-"  It is not necessary to fill in the rest of the form, (automatically or otherwise).  The problem occurs under Google Chrome/Mac 12.0.742.112 and Safari/Mac 5.0.5 (6533.21.1).
 * Edit toolbar preference is on. I'm happy to look up any other settings that might apply.
 * I'm using ... heh, whichever key it is that's directly on my keyboard, the "-" character. it appears correctly typed in the form, but is inserted incorrectly.
 * It's hard to be precise, but I'm guessing I see it in more than one percent and less than 5 percent of book references I insert. But the case I provided above seems reproducible.  I insert a *LOT* of book references at WP:URBLPR  --joe deckertalk to me 23:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Odd. I tried this a couple of times, five minutes ago, and got a 121â type result, and indeed a warning that the ref would not work for lack of a reflist (which despite the warning was on the page). However right now I cannot reproduce it. Go figure. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Wasn't able to reproduce in Firefox. Kaldari (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Still happening for me in both GC/Mac and Saf/Mac today by following the instructions above *precisely*, but one reason I've never reported it is that it's in general rare. And I know I've been seeing it "here and there" for months.  I'm not convinced I'd get the same result with the same ref in a different article, or vice versa, or that it is in general reproducible. Certainly not a diaster, but I'm thrilled that *somebody* else saw it!  :)   --joe deckertalk to me 20:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

CSD list with articles not belonging -
There are a number of entries in the CSD list, e.g. Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan, with no CSD notice, nor a hidden cat saying they are in CSD. What they do have in common is a recently added template which appears on the page, but doesn't seem to exist if I attempt to edit it. Can anyone figure out what is going on?-- SPhilbrick  T  11:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The template exists at Template:Kurdish independence movement just fine. I'd guess that someone tagged a (sub-)template for deletion without using tags. I can't figure out which one though, so it might have been removed already and the job queue is just not through yet. A null-edit fixes it, so we'll just have to wait. Regards  So  Why  12:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I tried a null edit on one and it worked, but I guess the rest will disappear when the job queue is complete-- SPhilbrick  T  12:18, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec) FWIW, that's a dummy edit. A null edit will also fix it, but doesn't even show up in the edit history. —DoRD (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * True, I mixed them up again. Still, there was a space missing, so I actually improved the article ;-) Regards  So Why  12:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I had a nagging feeling that wasn't a null edit, but as it worked, I wasn't going to quibble; thanks for the link to the distinction.-- SPhilbrick  T  15:51, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Template question: rotating text by e.g. 90 degrees
When using the Template:MongolUnicode, Mongol text can be rotated by 90 degrees. However, this functions well in Microsoft Explorer but not in Fire Fox nor in Google Chrome (see here). Does someone know to fix this for all browsers? An additional question, which would be handy for the use in e.g. tables: is it possible to include the rotation direction? Thank you in advance if you can help. Regards, Davin (talk) 10:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added the css3 property, but the firefox bug regarding this issue shows that it is not yet available in FF, due to 'unstable spec'. That means while there is a proposed standard for this, there are still issues with the specification that need to be clarified before it will be implemented in browsers. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:46, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Aren't there other ways either to make the rotation work? Davin (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, not in any sustainable future proof way. Scripts like this simply take a long time to develop and integrate into existing eco systems. Computers weren't designed in the 90s to take them into account. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Some interesting related information: http://www.zachleat.com/web/css3-text-writing-mode/ —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Your question got me interested, and then suddenly a day after your question the new spec proposal is released, and then I get more interested and look around more and more in Firefox and Webkit, and suddenly MediaWiki bug 9436] has testcases and a lot of new interest :D.  Good work for raising the question. I fear we are still years away from proper support, but at least there is some improvement. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your help! I guess we must wait some years until the problem in FireFox is fixed. Davin (talk) 07:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Using inputbox input with templates
Hi everyone, I'm in the process of writing a template for making new submissions at WP:DRN. It is currently located at User:Mr. Stradivarius/NewDRNsubmission (sandbox). What I would really like to do is have a user type in an article name into an inputbox and have that input available as a variable in my template. (For example, if I typed "Mozart" into the inputbox, the resulting edit screen would contain  in the preloaded text). I have looked at mw:Extension:InputBox and it says that it doesn't support code inside inputbox parameters. Is there any other way of doing this? All the best. <font face="Palatino, Georgia, serif"> — <font color="#194D00">Mr. Stradivarius <font color="#0F0073">♫ 06:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know about this? If I don't get a response I'm going to assume the answer is "no"... — <b style="text-shadow:0.18em 0.18em 0.09em #888; font-style: oblique; font-family: serif"> Mr. Stradivarius ♫</b> 06:18, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No way to do this, as far as I know. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:50, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply! I suspected as much - I shall try and make do without. — <b style="text-shadow:0.15em 0.15em 0.1em #555; color: #194D00; font-style: oblique; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif"> Mr. Stradivarius ♫</b> 14:05, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Cite tab on enhanced edit tool bar
(In case this is the wrong place please point me to the correct one)

How can I come in touch with the folk who implemented the feature, for discussing if and how it would be possible to implement the feature in the German Wikinews (however using n:de:Vorlage:Quelle instead)? TIA. --Matthiasb (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * See WP:REFTOOLBAR. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:07, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Kudos to the tech team for speed
I've noticed this for some time and wanted to say my thanks to the programmers - MediaWiki, the servers, caching, I don't know which specifically - for speeding up the loading of huge pages. More than once here, I complained that it took upwards of 30 seconds for the site to generate United States, and now I can view diffs from it and other similarly-complex pages just as fast as any other page. So, good job. :) --Golbez (talk) 16:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed that too on that very same page. --Kumioko (talk) 17:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Reference desks say "view source" instead of "edit"
On WP:RD, logged out users don't get the new section tab like they used to, and the edit tab says "view source" instead of "edit" even though editing works. 99.24.223.58 (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * View source is what it says when its restricted for editing. This just means that it can't be edited by an IP or it could be protected. With that said I don't agree that the Reference desk should have that level of protection. --Kumioko (talk) 17:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Normally, if a registered user opens a semi'd page, there will be a banner informing of such. I just opened all of the ref desk pages in edit mode, one by one, and saw no such banner. Maybe the IP could tell us which particular page he's having a problem with? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I just logged out and took a look at the ref desk pages. They all show the EDIT tab. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

It works for me too, now. Thanks to whomever fixed it. 99.24.223.58 (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See this archived thread. It looks like this is happening randomly, and no one has worked out the cause yet. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikimedia not unified?
Greetings,

The unified login says that I am successfully unified in all wikispaces, yet it does not work when I try logging in at wikimedia. I have tried logging in with my unified name, but my password does not work there, and it reports that there is no email address to send a new password. Can someone give me a hand with the problem, or point me where to get help? Regards,  Buster40004  Talk 20:49, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The Wikimedia Foundation wiki (http://wikimediafoundation.org) doesn't allow open editing or creation of accounts - it looks like accounts are created for WMF staff and committee members. Peter E. James (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that information, but it does not solve my issue, Perhaps I might clarify my point.  I can not login at wikimedia, as my unified username and password don't work.  Who can I ask to actually unify my account across all wiki name spaces, as a unified account is supposed to do.  Regards,  Buster40004  Talk  23:46, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Unified login is not enabled for anybody at wikimediafoundation.org for security reasons. See meta:Help:Unified login and the message at wmf:Special:UserLogin which says you can request an account at meta:Request for an account on the Foundation wiki (you have to give a reason). Even those who have been given accounts at wikimediafoundation.org cannot get a unified account there. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * When you say "wikimedia", are you referring to Wikimedia Commons at http://commons.wikimedia.org? It is usually called "Commons", rarely "Wikimedia Commons" and never "Wikimedia" which is something else. http://toolserver.org/~vvv/sulutil.php?user=Buster40004 shows that your account is not unified at Commons (it is unified at http://meta.wikimedia.org just to demonstrate that this is not a "wikimedia" restriction). commons:User:Buster40004 has not stored an email address so if you don't have a working password then the account is unavailable to you but you can request to usurp the username at commons:Commons:Changing username/Usurp requests. If the request is granted then you can unify the account. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes! that is what I wanted to know. I am new and all of these wikis seem to be mixed up in my head. I meant commons, and I have followed your suggestion there which I will then have the same user accounts on both.  Thanks!    Buster40004  Talk  02:37, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I think he means www.mediawiki.org, which does have unified login. 'Buster40004' exists locally there and shows merged. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 00:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * mw:User:Buster40004 has a stored email address so it doesn't match the info he gave. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

False CSDs?
There's 50 or so pages showing up in the CSD list that don't seem to belong. They are all user pages, I'm looking to see what they have in common (other than not having the CSD cat on their page) but haven't noticed anything specific.-- SPhilbrick  T  00:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe some template is incorrectly tagged. Do you have an example? <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 00:37, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * User:JellyFish72, User:Jezebel Parks/UBX, User:MBerrill, User:Thomasse I think the issue relates to user boxes, but that's a guess.-- SPhilbrick  T  01:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * User:Dan.abramov/userboxes/Severus was tagged db-user but the tag wasn't ed. DMacks (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * That's also what I found. User:Dan.abramov/userboxes/Severus had db-user for 3 minutes before being deleted. A lot of the pages in Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Dan.abramov/userboxes/Severus are still listed in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion but I guess the job queue will eventually remove them. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * (ec)I'm kicking myself because I was looking for things in common, and saw that one on two pages but missed it on the User:Thomasse page. That said, what needs to happen next? Or does this go away by itself? Oops, I guess that's answered.-- SPhilbrick  T  01:27, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

parameter in &lt;div&gt;
✅ Is it true: you cannot use a parameter in a  -tag attribute? e.g.: -DePiep (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * → wrong result not as expected.
 * This should be no problem (at least in templates). <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 00:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, the Q was: true or false? (or: how do I make it not a problem?) -DePiep (talk) 01:19, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What is the problem? What did you expect and what actually happened? The code as you wrote it should work fine: if you specify the  parameter, that is going to be used as the value for  . If you don't specify it, the default value of   will be used. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 02:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * First experience: any input did not arrive (i.e. no effect). It was in a 3-nested template development. Too much at once. I created a more simple test.

Looks like: from the calling template T:
 * foo=proper value as in  --> OK
 * foo=is missing as in  --> font-size takes the parameter-default (in example above: 50%)
 * foo=is blank as in  --> whole font-size thing is ignored. Resulting is 100%. -DePiep (talk) 02:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not a special characteristic of (or any other HTML markup); it's how MediaWiki expands any template parameter. Basically: a parameter that is present, but blank, is not the same as a parameter which is completely absent. If you want them to behave the same, you need to explicitly code for that, as in:
 * Some templates deliberately take advantage of the non-equivalence of blank and absence; the template, for example, (which I just used as ), can be used as follows:
 * → ABC
 * but
 * So, try this:
 * ABC
 * Another example is, where the use of a blank postscript suppresses the trailing period; that period is displayed when postscript is absent. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you RR64. At first, when posing this question, I thought the sequence of expanding was causing the trouble (which is does not). Anyway, all clear now. I'll close it. -DePiep (talk) 12:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * ABC
 * Another example is, where the use of a blank postscript suppresses the trailing period; that period is displayed when postscript is absent. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you RR64. At first, when posing this question, I thought the sequence of expanding was causing the trouble (which is does not). Anyway, all clear now. I'll close it. -DePiep (talk) 12:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

.js and .css pages not working
I recently got renamed and when I logged in afterward I found that my .css and .js pages were not working (they still aren't functional). I originally stuck a help me on my talk page, however, after 3 days of Q&A I was told to come here after I'd exhausted all possible solutions. I thank those who offered their assistance. —  James ( Talk •  Contribs ) • 11:50am • 01:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Umm... hello? —  James ( Talk •  Contribs ) • 7:48pm • 09:48, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * One likely problem: I see that in this edit, you changed the first reference from User:Ancient Apparition/CSDlog (the correct old name) to User:M.O.X/CSDH_log (the wrong new name). Does it work now? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu
 * Nope, I'm completely puzzled, this didn't happen during my first rename. Could it be that some of the edits from my old username weren't transferred, some of which were to my .css and .js pages? —  James ( Talk •  Contribs ) • 11:56am • 01:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Infobox educational trusts scholarships bursaries
Rhodes Scholarship is a page without an infobox.

Is there one? Which would be the best template to use as a base when writing one? Once created where would be the best place to get peer review? --ClemRutter (talk) 09:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not every article needs an infobox. Having said that, you're probably best asking at WT:INFOBOX who specialise in this sort of thing. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the link I needed. I was already watching the page! Other thoughts welcome. --ClemRutter (talk) 15:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Anyone can add an impromptu infobox into any article, or below any standard infobox in an article, by using a WP:Wikitable with "class=infobox". See essay: WP:Thinking outside the infobox, for some examples. I am thinking, for Rhodes Scholarship, to list when the endowment began, note the typical 2-year span, institution: University of Oxford, payment: by Rhodes Trust +monthly stipend (etc.), as a "nutshell summary" of the scholarship. Then, that simple infobox can be translated into more than just the mere 9 other languages, to help create that article in some of the 250 other-language wikipedias, such as Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish and Greek. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

bantu aku
please create WikiBar images contained in id:Pengguna:Erik Evrest/Bak Pasir at Wikipedia Indonesia on the "Usulan Halaman Utama" in the "[date] dalam sejarah" together with the yellow box above it. Many times my experiment did not work all the time.--Erik Evrest (talk) 13:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have absolutely no idea what are talking about. What's WikiBar? What's “Usulan Halaman Utama”? What does this have to do with the English Wikipedia? <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 16:21, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There is an error in id:Templat:Peristiwa terkini: a "&lt;/div>" after "&lt;onlyinclude>" and a &lt;/noinclude> must be removed (edit pending), then that page will show OK. <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 17:28, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Getting user's image-size
Is there a magic-word to get the current user's image-size setting, such as with "{&#123;gender: username|...}}" to get a username's gender? I have been auto-sizing & re-scaling images relative to each user's image-size preference, by putting "upright=1.20" in image-links to show images as 20% larger than the current user's preference for image-size. However, I want to calculate sizes by getting the user's image-size as a number from their preferences page, in the way {gender:...} gets a gender setting.
 * {&#123;gender:Svick|MALE|FEMALE|NOTSET}} &rarr;
 * {&#123;imagesize:xxxx}} &rarr;

Any suggestions? -Wikid77 (talk) 17:28, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Say whut ? No of course not. That would defeat the whole point of people having their own thumbnail setting. People get the option to override the default, now if you create a method to override the override, then we get into .... well I don't know, but it sure ain't flatland. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Transclusions, noinclude and load times
When you open a page that includes transcluded templates, does stuff within tags (e.g., costly things like images, links, other transclusions) also take time to get loaded? I know, for example, that causes stuff not to show up but still cost load time, whereas  causes stuff not to show up or to cost any load time; what about ?

Thanks, <b class="IPA">r<font color="#8B0000">ʨ anaɢ</b> (talk) 17:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * <noinclude ></noinclude> has no impact on load time. Any content within it is stripped during parsing (read: when saving a page). <span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',sans-serif"> — Edokter  ( talk ) — 18:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * is on the server end, so it's only downloaded where appropriate.  and   are on the client end, so they get downloaded and the browser determines whether to display them. —Designate (talk) 07:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Most comments are omitted unless subst'd: Like most things in life, the handling of noincludes and HTML-style comments is somewhat complex. It appears that most HTML comments "&lt;!-- -->" in templates (or articles) are omitted unless a template is subst'd, then comments outside of each &lt;noinclude> are downloaded over the Internet to the reader's computer. For that reason, feel free to use many comments inside a template's markup coding, to explain all the complex "esoteric" features, but for templates designed for WP:Subst, then noinclude most commments as "&lt;noinclude>&lt;!--xxx-->&lt;/noinclude>" otherwise, all those comments can get downloaded to the reader's computer. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:06, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note, html comments  are stripped on the server side (for security reasons due to things like conditional comments for IE - easier just to kill them then to actually check if they are safe). You can put as many such comments in an article as you like - it will never end up to the user. (However, even if they did, it'd have such a minute influence on the speed of a page load, it probably wouldn't matter). Bawolff (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Flawed "Show changes"
Hello,

I am reading an article... I open several "edit section" tabs. Then I edit some sections. Then I am editing a section and I click "Show changes". It must display only the changes in this section. But the comparison is made between the whole article as it was when I clicked "edit this section" and the text in the form. So a lot of "changes" appear: cancellations of my edits in other sections. This is a serious bug. Please correct it. Thank you.

Nnemo

--Nnemo (talk) 00:21, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Which page? When? עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem occurs with any page having sections. It occurs always.
 * --Nnemo (talk) 12:59, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * --Nnemo (talk) 12:59, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, the comparison says "Latest revision" and is made between the latest saved page version when you clicked "Show changes" (which is not necessarily the version when you clicked edit). This can be helpful, for example alerting you if you are adding something another editor has already added to another section, or you are relying on something another editor has removed from a previous section. In many other cases it will not be helpful but the software cannot predict in which cases it is helpful. In your scenario it was your own edits but I think it's unusual to have several section edit tabs open for the same page. I use the "Edit" tab at top to edit the whole page in that situation. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The comparison tells me that, if I save, many changes will be made: reverts of my recent edits in other sections. Is it true? God knows — as for me, I never dared saving when in that buggy situation. But if, instead of "Show changes", I directly save, then all those reverts will not be made, happily. So, one way or the other, there is a serious bug. Either MediaWiki makes a lot of reverts I didn't demand. Or MediaWiki displays a lot of changes about to be made, which, in fact, will not be made.
 * Editing a big or busy page is a mess. So happily we can cut it in pieces, to be focused and to avoid edit conflicts. I believe the future of Wikipedia lies in the possibility to edit even much more precisely. A table cell? A paragraph? A sentence? A word? A reference?
 * I see a missing "s" at some word. In WYSIWYG, I click and add it; saved. In the current Wikipedia, I edit the minimal block, the section, which can be very big, I find my way in the jungle of templates, references, images and so on, and eventually I add the "s".
 * --Nnemo (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I see a missing "s" at some word. In WYSIWYG, I click and add it; saved. In the current Wikipedia, I edit the minimal block, the section, which can be very big, I find my way in the jungle of templates, references, images and so on, and eventually I add the "s".
 * --Nnemo (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * --Nnemo (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If you save a section edit then it only affects the section you are editing. Recent edits in other sections will not be reverted. I agree the diff displayed by Show changes can appear confusing if others have saved edits since you clicked edit at a section, but I also think it has advantages in some situations to be aware of other edits. Don't worry about clicking Save. If there is actually a conflict with other edits then the save will be prevented by an edit conflict. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Bug-reports documented???
Where heavier bugs are documented? It is simply impossible that this can be investigated only on bugzilla!? --Perhelion 14:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What's so impossible about that? Bugzilla is just for that: tracking bugs. So why should they be documented elsewhere? Although it's not unusual that some bugs are documented on relevant Help: or Wikipedia: pages, these can sometimes be quite outdated. <tt>User&lt;Svick&gt;.Talk;</tt> 16:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok yes, redundancy must be avoided. I meant more in terms of media files. There are a lot of (frustrating) unknowing mistakes committed. Only very few people explore Bugzilla. -- <span style="text-shadow:#4bf 1px 1px 1px,#600 0 0 2px;color:#dd0;font:italic bold 1em cursive">Perhelion»♥› 16:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Bolding on Watchlist
✅

I'm confused about how to get the watchlist pages that I haven't read to be bolded. Is there any way to set that to work? I heard on the IRC channel it was disabled on English Wikipedia. Is that true? --Nathan2055talk 00:11, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, I found the script: User:Gary_King/mark_unviewed_watchlist_items.js. <b style="font-family:Courier New; display:inline; border:#009 1px dashed; padding:1px 6px 2px 7px; white-space:nowrap; color:#000000; font-size:smaller;">mabdul</b> 00:14, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the script to my Vector file, we just have to wait for a page to be updated. I'll watch this page so I can test when you respond. --Nathan2055talk 03:27, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh oh. I logged on today and my new changes were not bolded! Anything I could have done wrong? --Nathan2055talk 16:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I found the setting to fix the problem with help from the IRC channel. Thanks for your help with finding the script. --Nathan2055talk 20:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Works better if you import it rather than copy it, by using this instead:

importScript('User:Gary King/mark unviewed watchlist items.js'); // User:Gary King/mark unviewed watchlist items.js


 * This makes it so that you will receive all updates to the script. Gary King  ( talk  ·  scripts )  04:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

CZ: prefix
Since Citizendium uses "CZ:" the way we use "WP:", as a shortcut to policy pages, I typed "cz:" as a page title to learn if it would send me over there, in the same way that I type "en:" on other projects to get to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. To my surprise, it took me http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hlavní_strana, the Czech Wikipedia. Why does it take me to a project whose language tag is different from what I typed? I later tried the "cs:" tag, and it worked as I expected it would by giving me the Czech Wikipedia. Nyttend (talk) 03:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * m:Help:Interwiki_linking. Ruslik_ Zero 10:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * .cz is the country code top-level domain the Czech Republic, and easily confused with cs which was the country code top-level domain for Czechoslovakia and is the ISO 639-1 language code for Czech, while the ISO 639-2 code is cze/ces (see List of ISO 639-2 codes). If cz: went off site then it would probably cause a lot of false links when Czech was intended. takes you to Citizendium. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "cz" isn't the only such confusing issue; I would expect, for eample, that to link to a MediaWiki bug by number one would type, but that would link to the Buginese Wikipedia. The actual way to link to bugs is actually  . עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:AFDO
There are 3 outstanding AfDs (all closed) on the list for June 25 (Articles for deletion/Log/2011 June 25) which Mathbot can't seem to clear. I tried reverting one to its pre-close state and then closing it again, but it still doesn't clear out. Anyone got any ideas? Probably something obvious, but I can't see it. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikilove link not working in Classic skin
Could someone who understands skins, css etc, attempt to fix or remove the new Wikilove link in Classic skin. Whilst it looks ok in the default Vector skin, all I get in Classic is a badly formatted text link, which doesn't do anything when I click it (see for preview). Alternatively is there anything I can add to my personal css to hide it? (Please don't ask me to change to another skin - I still prefer Classic and refuse to change!)&mdash;Optimist on the run (the admin formerly known as Tivedshambo) (talk) 09:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Special:Preferences → Editing → Labs → uncheck "Enable showing appreciation for other users with the WikiLove tab (experimental)". Took me a while to find it– would have expected it to be under "gadgets" instead. <font color="#CC0099">sonia ♫  10:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks - Have some wikilove :-) I'd looked at gadgets as well.&mdash;Optimist on the run (the admin formerly known as Tivedshambo) (talk) 10:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Slightly off topic, but I don't see this tab at all. I've been wondering what all the sudden hubub about WikiLove even means. I have Mono on, and checking or unchecking doesn't seem to change anything (it was checked by default). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It only appears when viewing a User: or User talk: page (including your own), and only appears when you are logged-in. In Monobook, it appears immediately to the right of the "watch"/"unwatch" tab; in Vector, it's a pinkish-red heart between the blue "watch" star and the downward-arrow thing. -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally I see the tab but when I click it nothing happens. It just sits there scared and alone!. I think my Wikilove needs some Wikilove. --Kumioko (talk) 14:41, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It also requires your browser to be able to handle Javascript. Further information at WikiLove. -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:49, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Javascript works fine, I use twinkle and I use several Java based gadets which all work fine. I Use IE and Mozilla depending what computer and I use Windows or Linux depending which computer. I just figured it was cause I was using the old look and feel of WP rather than the new look but I could be wrong. --Kumioko (talk) 14:56, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * For classic, it's a bug in the script. I created a ticket for the bug earlier today: 29668 —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 20:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It works fine for me, except the "make your own" won't allow me to pull a picture from commons. It says "Something went wrong when retrieving the image. Please try again", but does not elaborate, and trying again of course ends up the same way. Even their suggested example, File:Trophy.png, produces that error. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Please include your Browser + version + Wikipedia skin, that always helps finding causes for issues like these. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

WikiLove has been fixed for the Classic skin in r91320. The fix will probably be deployed next week (along with a few other small bug fixes). Not sure about Bugs' issue though. Will need to investigate further. Kaldari (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I posted my info on your page. If that fix goes in next week, maybe it will fix mine as well. This is not an earth-shattering problem. It would just be nice for it to work. :) P.S. Has there been any discussion about having one option be a one-touch posting of the standard "welcome" message? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:58, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In the absence of anything else, you can do speedy welcomes with Twinkle. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 04:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never used it, and all I see about it are negatives, so I stay away from it. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:32, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There is talk of adding Welcome templates in the local WikiLove config. Stay tuned. Kaldari (talk) 01:34, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Image not displaying
Someone who released an image for use in an article I wrote has emailed me to say he can't get the image to display. All he can see is a red cross in a box. I can see it fine on several browsers I've tried. I've noticed this a few times with other images myself, but I don't know what to suggest to him. Does anyone know what causes it? SlimVirgin TALK |  CONTRIBS 02:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is an issue that cannot be properly investigated unless we have the specific image to investigate. Do you have a link ? —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Most likely, this is a bug with the software. I'd recommend getting more information on how/when it happens, and openning a bug as described by WP:BUGS. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:09, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

NPP - show the patrol option to wikignomes
I'm an occasional newpage patroller and also a typo fixer, so I'm very conscious that a high proportion of the unresolved typos in Wikipedia are in new articles which may or may not have been marked as patrolled. Similarly a significant proportion of our articles with uncategorised, deadend, wikify and some other maintenance templaes will be new and sometimes unpatrolled articles. Currently you only see the button to mark an article as patrolled if you have gone to the article from Special:NewPages, I think it would be useful if the mark as patrolled option was displayed to all Autoconfimed editors who happened to view an article that they had not created. The Newpages queue keeps hitting its 30 day limit, and if the option to mark as patrolled was available to the editors who are working the various maintenance backlogs then I suspect that many of the innocuous new articles would get marked as patrolled, thus enabling the back of the queue patrollers to focus on the more borderline ones.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  09:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This would be a new feature, I think, so please follow the instructions at WP:BUGS (despite the name, it applies also to new features, as does the target website, Bugzilla). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * See Bug 15936. Apparently it worked this way for a while, but the change was reversed for "nasty performance" reasons. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:55, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Category sort order (lower case no longer?)
Hey all. It used to be the case that categories were sorted based on capitalized titles, then you could also sort items after that with lower case sortkeys in this order:  (via Help:Category). This is really important to us at WP:PLANTS as we use lower case sortkeys on species pages to differentiate the species from the subgenera or sections or articles titled at common names in genus categories. E.g. at under F, the species should be sorted under "f" and subgenus Forsteropsis should be sorted under "F" since species epithets are lower case and other ranks are capitalized. It was a really neat and tidy way to keep the genus categories.

What gives? Why was this changed? Can we get it reverted? What was the motivation for the change? I should note that others have noticed the change (here), and it undoes a lot of the work by one dedicated IP editor, Stephen Kosciesza. Cheers, Rkitko (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This has to do with the fix to 164. To my mind, the plants project had been relying on broken behavior, which is always risky. Ucucha 16:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It changed in early March, not long after the deployment of MediaWiki 1.17 in February 2011 (although intended to be part of that update, it was held back a couple of weeks). There have been several related threads on WP:VPT, the main one being Village pump (technical)/Archive 87, although nobody has yet, AFAICT, shown where the primary idea to reform categorisation was proposed and approved. -- Red rose64 (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link and history. It's a bit frustrating. Could this comment at bugzilla help? He writes, "Note that if you still want to present a category ordered so that all lowercase letters will sort tegether separately from all other uppercase letters, you'll need to indicate a separate collation order, by specifying an additional non-default locale in that specific category. This will look probalby not natural for most users, that's why it will be a distinct locale and not the default. For example to use it in English or in French: "
 * As far as I know, a SORTAS template or magic word is not in use, but could be the answer to my issue. We could just plop that into each genus category - more work, but if this change is here to stay, it might be worth it. Rkitko (talk) 18:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I wondered if that was it. I don't think we were relying on broken behavior. We should have the capability to sort under lower case titles if we want to, without interfering with other sorting schemes. There's a lot to wade through at the bugzilla link - what was the course of action for the fix? Treat every letter of an article title as capitalized? At least that gets rid of the perceived need for the damned DEFAULTSORT on non-biographical articles. I'd like this functionality of lower case sorting back. Rkitko (talk) 17:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I certainly think the previous behaviour (sorting "a" after "Z") ought to be seen as a bug rather than a feature, and I'm glad to see Wikipedia moving in the direction of providing proper alphabetical ordering a mere few hundred years after other reference works managed it, but I see why in some cases (like the plants categories) more flexibility might be required. For example, it might be made possible to treat lower case letters in explicitly defined sort keys as separate, while treating those in implicit sort keys (i.e. the page names) the same as capitals.--Kotniski (talk) 07:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Kotniski. The old behavior was broken in many ways. Now that it is fixed, it might break your 'trick' in sorting plants, but so be it. In wiki categorization I would say that a genus should never share a category with a subgenus. They are 'separate' concepts and in wiki categorization separate concepts are usually sorted in separate categories. We don't make logical sortings inside categories based on the sort-algorithme, we sort alphabetically and use sup and parentcategories in order to separate elements based on characteristics and other forms of 'logic' sortings. A trick with broken behavior is not a feature, it is a misused side effect of a bug. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 19:10, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh, no, we almost never create categories for subgenera or infrageneric devisions. When browsing categories, it's usually difficult to find a species if it's categorized in a subgenus category. There's also usually terrible systematic support for such divisions, which usually means they change frequently in the literature. And with small genera, subgenus categories are a ridiculous proposition. You would really have me create subgenus and section categories for, for example? In these cases, all articles pertaining to the genus should be contained within the genus category, and sorting helped keep it tidy. Prior to using the lower case sort keys for species, we used to keep the subgenera and section articles at the top of the category using an asterisk sort key, but that was undesirable. I also still disagree that sorting lower case after capitalized titles was a bug. As I understand it, bug 164 had more to do with sorting in other language wikis and fixing the need for DEFAULTSORT on non-biographical articles (speaking of which, I'm still seeing DEFAULTSORT being added to species articles, and it's entirely unnecessary now). I see lower case sorting as a victim of the solution for bug 164. I like Kotniski's idea. Is that something that would be possible? Where would this feature be proposed? Do you think it would gain much support? It seems like the right direction to go, as the explicitly defined sort keys (lower case) would only be used in situations where it is warranted. Rkitko (talk) 21:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you sure DEFAULTSORT is now unnecessary on non-biographical articles? I tried reading through that bug report, but got lost in the later technical stuff. One of the reasons DEFAULTSORT is needed when it might appear it is not needed, is that it serves as a note that someone has checked the article for category sorting issues. Even if DEFAULTSORT=PAGENAME, you still need to be able to distinguish between an article that is checked and "nothing" is done, and an article that hasn't been checked yet. If you just say "oh, DEFAULTSORT is not needed" and then move on, then someone else will later repeat the check you have just done. In other words, leaving DEFAULTSORT there is a way of saying "this article has been dealt with". Does that make sense? It is a bit like the "ass" (assessment) parameter on disambiguation tags that tells those dealing with disambiguation that someone else did some work on that disambiguation page (or maybe it was orphan tags, I forget). i.e. Silent actions sometimes need recording to prevent someone else repeating them. Carcharoth (talk) 00:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (A tangent, but let's go there.) I'm sure. It was being used on species articles because of the erroneous idea that all articles with more than one word titles needed to be categorized by titles that would have capitalized words (e.g. on the Drosera paradoxa article), even though all articles with the first word "Drosera" would all sort correctly in all categories, since they would all have lowercase second words (e.g. Drosera paradoxa sorted below Drosera pallida). The misapplication of DEFAULTSORT to species articles was quite vexing, since adding it indiscriminately to a few articles often caused situations in "Flora of (country)" categories where Drosera paradoxa would sort above Drosera pallida if only the former was given a capitalized DEFAULTSORT. That said, since this bug fix, DEFAULTSORT is superfluous if you always want it to sort as the title reads, regardless of capitalization: Drosera pallida will always sort above Drosera paradoxa regardless of whether or not the latter receives a capitalized DEFAULTSORT. If it's not necessary, we sholdn't include it, even for what I think is a very silly reason of a marker to say the article has been dealt with. We need to get out of that mode of thinking. Not every articles needs it, and now fewer than ever before do (I exempt biographical articles since they sort by last name first, and any other articles that sort by a title different from what is given). Also, orphan tags are sometimes exceedingly useless for species articles. Very often (most likely normally), a species will only be mentioned in its genus or "List of Genus species" article. But not more than that. It's a tag that will never be taken care of, because you often have to dig very deep in the literature to find any reason to mention that species on any other article (the only time I can think of such an example is in a few articles, it's possible species X will be mentioned as growing in an area where species Y grows, but usually those are dominant species in the area that already have lots of incoming links). So I usually remove orphan tags when it's clear they're never going to be addressed. Should every article in  be tagged with Orphan? (Go ahead, click a random sample.) Rkitko (talk) 01:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

There is no requirement for the sortkey of the article to closely resemble the title. So you could come up with a different system to sort the plant articles. E.g. the sortkey could have a prefix that says what sort of article it is, followed by the title of the article:. This could be extended to more levels if necessary. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 23:44, 20 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Wait... what? Putting aside the fact that that would be a TON of work that would be hard to automate (just by the fact that it's difficult to find every genus category), would that work? If I went to Drosera paradoxa and typed in, what would it sort under in the category? Would it go under the heading S? Species? or p? Perhaps you misunderstood. The goal is to get all the species in a genus to sort under different headings according to the first letter of their species epithet (Drosera paradoxa under "p", Drosera erythrorhiza under "e", but separate from Drosera sect. Ergaleium, Drosera subg. Ergaleium, and Drosera sect. Erythrorhiza, which should all sort under "E". Rkitko (talk) 01:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Just tried it - doesn't work. sorts the article under "S" which is undesirable. Rkitko (talk) 02:22, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But you could make the exceptional ones (let's say subgenera, in a category where most of the entries are species) sort under "*" or space, so they come at the start of the listing. Then put a note in the category page text to say what you've done.--Kotniski (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That doesn't account for articles at common name titles. We used to put subgenera, sections, etc. under a * sort key, but they never seemed to sort alphabetically. It also becomes a problem when you have so many of them. Rkitko (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This sort of thing is already common for Templates (Τ tau was τ but is now capitalised) and Stubs (μ but is now capitalised as Μ). You may want to define a standard Greek character for species -- Σ perhaps. Mark Hurd (talk) 10:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm not explaining this well. If you used a single sort key for species, it would place all species under that sort key, which is undesirable and unwieldy in large genera. Take another look at . Each species is sorted under the first letter of its species epithet. That what I want, only how it used to be in lower case. Personally, I think it's a failing of the bug "fix" that it capitalizes every sort key, which especially makes for a bit of confusion when μ becomes Μ, which looks like M but is sorted after Z. Rkitko (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I"m not really seeing any problem with at the moment. All the species are where they should be (I don't think anyone's going to be in any way confused by the fact that the section-heading letters are capital rather than small - we can all see what's going on). As I say, if you wanted to take the (relatively few) subgenera and sections out of the species list (which to me doesn't seem entirely necessary - people will be able to find them anyway), you just need to give them sort keys wihch begin with a space or asterisk or some such character, followed by the subgenus/section name so they get sorted correctly within their section. But I agree it would be better if the software didn't automatically capitalize explicit sort keys (people write sort keys in a particular way for a reason).--Kotniski (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I saw this coming. As a fairly dedicated sorting gnome (with 3 or 4 comments on the dreaded bug #164, including one in which I said "Furthermore and FYI, on en, some folk have decided that case-sensitivity in the sort is a feature, not a bug."), it was obvious that when sorting for the general case got fixed it was going to break the taxonomy folks collective heart. But as a default behavior, case-sensitive sorting is a major bug and had to be fixed. Now perhaps there's some non-default trick the taxonomy folk can apply to restore their preferred sorting. However, I would argue that their sorting was "wrong" for a general purpose reference anyway. The issue simply, is that the average person who drills into a category sorted "their" way has no freaking clue that stuff sorted under capital letters is substantively different from things sorted under lowercase letters. Now serious biologists probably "get it" pretty quickly, and I (son of a paleontologist) figured it out eventually, but the average reader? All they see is stuff arranged "oddly" (to them), some things under capital letters and something under lowercase. Now if the sort groupings could be labeled arbitrarily, such as "Genus S", "Genus T", "Subgenus S", "Subgenus T", then fine, the poor average user gets a clue why all the entries starting with the letter s are split into two groups, what with the group names being there on the page. But without explicitly controlled headings, going back to headings "S", "T", "s", and "t", is confusing for non-specialists, IMHO, and is trying to "overload" the tool to do more than its really capable of, and it doesn't really matter if it's standard in specialist works. This is a point I've tried to make to some of the taxonomy folk a couple of times now and they've disagreed; they're doing the work, so fine. But since the topic has come up in a more general venue, I thought I'd repeat the point one last time; WP is a general work and categorization schemes ought to be immediately understandable by the general user. Studerby (talk) 18:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Studerby I think (and I mean this constructively) that you're attributing too much of a love of the technical and esoteric as motivation for what actually was an effort to be clear. I've just discovered yesterday that I'm apparently famous--and appreciated--for my efforts to organize Category pages for plant genera.  I'm not a biologist; while I have an amateur's interest in the sciences, my degrees are in music, and my job for 30 years has been as a government library technician.
 * I think that the separation by upper and lower case did not reflect some love of technical correctness, inscrutable to the layman, but rather made things visually clearer to the layman. The problem has not been mainly subgenera and sections (believe me, I speak from experience when I say there are not many of those), but more to do with pages that include both scientific and common names--not to mention other articles that have to do with the genus, but are not about some particular species.
 * The first I ever did (where I cut my teeth and learned how) was Category;Pinus, the pine trees. When I had it done, under the old way, there was one relatively short list of upper case letters for such things as Jeffrey's Pine (J), Loblolly Pine (L), Lepidoptera that feed on Pine species (that's a hypothetical here; I've seen such at some species).  After that very short alphabet, there came Pinus a... (a), Pinus b... (b), and, if I say so myself, it all came out visually clear at a glance what was going on.
 * The new results are not so bad as I feared. The main difficulty is, typically, in a list of titles quite clearly alphabetized by the SECOND words, you get these odd ones stuck in alphabetized by the first.  It strikes me as visually confusing, but as I said, it's not as bad as I thought.  140.147.236.195 (talk) 14:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
 * The main reason that this was useful (apart from a slightly over-enthusiastic clinging to lower case as section headings) was in some older categories where it was good to separate, for example "Banksia, my love affair with the antipodean genus" from "Banksia mycoflorum", particularly useful for a large genus. This is of course sub-optimal categorization anyway, since the category structure does not then reflect the taxonomy, (works and people not being plants) - it looks as if there has been a wise move towards keeping the taxonomic categories clean (XX taxa), which makes the loss of case sensitive sorting less important. Rich Farmbrough, 15:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC).

Checking if new articles are reposts of deleted ones
Is there a way for non-admins to check if an article is a repost of a previously deleted article? It usually isn't obvious and if such a function doesn't exist, shouldn't one be created to nmake it easier for non-admins to see if the article has been deleted before? Valenciano (talk) 10:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's simple to see if a page with an identical title has ever been deleted - click on the "history" tab, and then on the "View logs for this page" link - if there's too much which isn't deletion logs, change the first dropdown from "All public logs" to "Deletion log" and then click on the "Go" button. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:41, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Without admin rights you can not see the deleted content, so will be unable to see if the recreated article is substantially the same as the deleted version. Edit comments, AfD or talk pages including a link to the article may help you decide if a speedy with WP:CSD is appropriate. Else apply improvements or edits are appropriate for any new article. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And occasionally a google cache may still have the original article - do a google search for a reasonably long quote and check if any hits represent an old Wikipedia article. Before I was an admin, I found one such recreation that way. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Threre sites that attempt to preserve content deleted on WP. Rich Farmbrough, 15:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC).

Range blocking
Why is it that MediaWiki can't block ranges larger than /16? Is it different for IPv6 range blocks? Is it feasible to block a range larger than that by blocking multiple /16s?Jasper Deng (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Because after /16 the internet becomes REALLY big. We don't want anyone to accidentally block 5% of all our users. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 10:09, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but, sometimes, we need to block things like /10, or even /8, especially in the case of LTA. I'm also interested in how this applies for IPv6.Jasper Deng (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that a /10 isn't technically possible - it has to be a power of 2 (16 is 24). Re the original q: a logical size would be 256 (28). -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * On the English Wikipedia you can block anything between, and including, a /16 (65,536 addresses) and a /32 (1 address). --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 18:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * With a /16 you are already blocking 65000 endpoints of the internet. If you need to block more than that, you might as well do that by hand, because it gets really dangerous after that. /8 would be 16.581.375 addresses. I don't care how long the lta is, blocking 16 million addresses is simply stupid and should NEVER be done. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Assume 65000 is an approximation of 65536 (216). Why 16.581.375 though? The next power of 2 above 16 million is 16,777,216 (224). -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * My mistake, though, with accounting for reserved numbers, it might even be a better actual total. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI. part of this faulty reasoning that a block of more than /16 is useful, is the assumption that all vandalism needs to be eradicated and forever prevented. This assumption is false. Vandalism is part of Wikipedia. We undo it and sometimes make it slightly more difficult to repeat it. But vandalism will always be there and this is an accepted part of the Wikipedia ecosystem. If the prevention part is causing people to not be able to properly use Wikipedia, then the prevention step is going too far. Non-vandals should almost never be able to notice that we have issued a block with a /8 such an assumption is by definition false. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 18:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about LTAs.Jasper Deng (talk) 18:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's nice. (For the rest of us, that's probably WP:LTA}. So you'd be happy to block 16 million IPs to get a single long term abuser. Excellent. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the collateral damage is worth it. And I need answers about IPv6 here.Jasper Deng (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the way. Can you give us an example of when blocking 5% of users to frustrate a single abuser is worth it? --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Are there any examples where an entire /8 is blocked by a ton of /16 range blocks? I have a hard time imagining vandalism so terrible as to warrant such a massive block. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  18:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's say that an abuser comes from various addresses within an ISP's /8 - or even a /12 - and the addresses are too dispersed for a /16.Jasper Deng (talk) 19:07, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The question raised is not over whether it can or does happen, but whether is appropriate to block such a large range, and if so, what abuse is so severe as to justify it. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  19:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And keep in mind that if the technical limit is /16, then it's simple and quick to block a /15 range (as 2 separate /16s) and even a /14 range (as 4 /16 ranges). This discussion is the first place I can recall anyone even disussing anything bigger than a /14 range. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Example of an /11. I've done a /10 at Wikia before (can't remember where, probably wikifur or uncyclopedia), and I am pretty sure someone had to do an /8 temporarily. It happens. *shrug* --Splarka (rant) 07:35, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It may make sense for the maximum blockable range to be configured on the level of the site, as opposed to being hard-coded; the place to ask for that would be Bugzilla. On English Wikipedia, I think that /16 is as big as we need - even your examples, which are off our site, don't say anything about what we need on English Wikipedia. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's especially true when IPv6 comes on. Apparently, MediaWiki cannot block IPv6 ranges larger than /64, which could be a problem if an entire organization (typically around /48) needs to be blocked. Or, a script can be used.Jasper Deng (talk) 22:06, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It already is configurable <b style="color:#c22">^</b><b style="color:#000">demon</b><sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz] <em style="font-size:10px;">00:19, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Most ISPs I've seen usually occupy multiple /16 ranges at most. Though a user may appear to hop in a /10 or /8 range, I've found that many are actually using multiple smaller ranges such as /20. However, some of our most problematic ISPs are TalkTalk Business, BT Group, and Tiscali. I call these the impossible ISPs. <b style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:14px; color:#4682B4;">Elockid</b>  ( Talk ) 17:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * A large problem often faced with range-blocks is lack of WHOIS info for rangeblocks to be specific enough.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)