Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemistry/IRC discussions/8 July 2008

--- Log opened Tue Jul 08 07:01:10 EDT 2008

07:02 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; I'm not sure if there's a meeting today, and if so, I don't think I can participate...will leave log running

07:05 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I think there is .. see User talk:Beetstra

07:05 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But I am not sure if I am here either

07:09 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; !info

07:09 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Beetstra: Uptime: 5 days, 19:56:58 hours. Last RC 01 seconds ago. Reportlevel = 1 (1).

07:10 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; dmacks_logging, have you seen CheMoBot report wrong things?

07:11 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; I have not. I've seen some weirdly worded log msgs, but nothing "not correct".

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; !help

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: help

07:12 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Hi operator dmacks_logging! Commands: wl add/del/search, bl add/del/search, ml add/del/search, field add/del, box add/del, quiet/silent, report, reportlevel, show, status

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; ml list

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: ml list

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: ml

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: ml search

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: ml search dmacks

07:12 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Nope! 'dmacks' was not found on my monitor list.

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: bl search dmacks

07:12 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Nope! Link 'dmacks' &lt;-&gt; '' does not appear in my blacklist.

07:12 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; CheMoBot: wl search dmacks

07:12 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Nope! Link 'dmacks' &lt;-&gt; '' does not appear in my whitelist.

07:13 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; What's the way to see whose edits are ignored?

07:13 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; (some common wiki chem folks' edits have been noted in the channel, not sure if they are on ignore-list or not)

07:16 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; (unrelatedly, we *really* gotta solve the formatting of temperatures and other negative values:/

07:17 * dmacks_logging commutes

07:18 &lt;+dmacks_logging&gt; (btw, I do have solution to the long SMILES/InChI being unscrollable, haven't had time to put it in the templates)

07:50 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot wl search user dmacks

07:50 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Yes, User 'dmacks' is on my whitelist! Linked to strings: [*],

08:20 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But see who is whitelisted ..

08:21 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot wl search string *

08:21 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Yes, The text '*' is on my whitelist! Linked to users: [beetstra], [dmacks], [physchim62], [smokefoot], [walkerma], [edgar181], [bduke], [rifleman 82], [v8rik], [wimvandorst], [gene nygaard], [wknight94], [oxymoron83], [cluebot], [pol098], [nonagonal spider], [siebot], [smackbot], [mer-c], [el c], [ashe613], [paul gene], [volkovbot], [msbot], [chemspiderman], [voabot ii], [chase me ladies, i'm the cavalry], [edchem], [wimt], [sinebot], [jandbot], [deadeye

08:21 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; quite a list .. too long for the bot to report ..

08:36 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Moretto has edited watched box containing page Ceftobiprole - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ceftobiprole&diff=224340701&oldid=222614529 (+213) - Summary: ' update'

08:36 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Ceftobiprole: Added links: http://www.reuters.com/article/companynewsandpr/idusl3062252520080630

10:20 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:69.87.199.136 has edited watched box containing page Nitrogen trifluoride - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nitrogen_trifluoride&diff=224356393&oldid=224143626 (+1199) - Summary: ' /* Greenhouse gas */ Tell the PFC &gt; NF3 story.'

10:20 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Nitrogen trifluoride: Added links: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-climate8-2008jul08,0,7460950.story

10:29 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Fvasconcellos has edited watched box containing page Warfarin - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warfarin&diff=224358036&oldid=224268555 (+1820) - Summary: ' /* Indications */ drive-by citing (we could probably find a more authoritative reference for this'

10:29 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Warfarin: Added links: http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=0025-7974&volume=83&issue=2&spage=107, http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=0038-4348&volume=82&issue=12&spage=1585, http://aace.metapress.com/openurl.asp?genre=article&issn=1530-891x&volume=3&issue=2&spage=77, http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=3704105

10:47 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Fvasconcellos has edited watched box containing page Warfarin - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warfarin&diff=224361175&oldid=224358036 (+280) - Summary: ' moving down, rmv duplicates; Interactions section still needs cleanup'

10:47 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Warfarin: Added links: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/177/4/369

11:04 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot wl add Fvasconcellos *

11:04 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; OK! The link 'Fvasconcellos' &lt;-&gt; '*' has been added to my whitelist (-).

11:36 -!- Rifleman_82 [n=Rifleman@wikipedia/Rifleman-82] has joined #wikichem

11:36 -!- mode/#wikichem [+v Rifleman_82] by ChanServ

11:36 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; heya dirk

11:42 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Hey!

11:42 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot debug

11:42 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; CheMoBot is in debug mode.

11:45 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Beetstra has edited watched box containing page User:Beetstra/Propane - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Beetstra/Propane&diff=224371545&oldid=222672921 (+1) - Summary: ' small test change'

11:45 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; User:Beetstra/Propane: Changed: CASNo (from '74-98-6' to '74-98-63'; stored: '74-98-6')

11:45 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Nergaal has edited monitored page Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements - diff - (+264)- summary: /* Get rid of "notable characteristics" section header where introductions are too short? */

11:45 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; OK, works .. it now shows whitelisted users ..

11:49 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:131.227.175.169 has edited watched box containing page Succinic acid - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Succinic_acid&diff=224372229&oldid=211917777 (+86) - Summary: ' '

11:49 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Succinic acid: Added links: http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/organic/succinic%20acid.htm

11:59 -!- walkerma [n=chatzill@admin-151-108.potsdam.edu] has joined #wikichem

12:00 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Hey Martin!

12:00 &lt;walkerma&gt; Hello!

12:00 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I'm still here ..

12:01 * Beetstra demonstrates

12:01 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Beetstra has edited watched box containing page User:Beetstra/Propane - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Beetstra/Propane&diff=224374594&oldid=224371545 (-1) - Summary: ' change back'

12:01 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; User:Beetstra/Propane: Changed: CASNo (from '74-98-63' to '74-98-6' - correct)

12:02 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; hey martin, dirk

12:02 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; :)

12:02 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; tony not here yet?

12:02 -!- mode/#wikichem [+v walkerma] by ChanServ

12:02 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Itub has edited monitored page Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements - diff - (+310)- summary: /* future FA? */ suggest chlorine

12:03 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot is now spamming the channel a bit, but that well, is for demonstration purposes, I think

12:03 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Walkerma has edited watched box containing page User:Beetstra/Propane - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Beetstra/Propane&diff=224375073&oldid=224374594 (+5) - Summary: ' '

12:03 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; User:Beetstra/Propane: Changed: CASNo (from '74-98-6' to 'Ha-bloody-ha'; stored: '74-98-6')

12:04 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But some things go very wrong, and are going to be difficult

12:04 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Rifleman_82:No, he's not, but he said he would be coming.

12:04 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot check User:Beetstra/Propane

12:04 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Checking: User:Beetstra/Propane

12:04 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; User:Beetstra/Propane - incorrect: CASNo ( Ha-bloody-ha - 74-98-6) - ChEBI (2 - )

12:04 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; User:Beetstra/Propane - correct: IUPACName ( Propane) - SMILES ( CCC) - RTECS ( TX2275000) - Density ( 1.83 kg/m3, gas &lt;br&gt;0.5077 kg/L, liquid ) - MeltingPt ( -187.6 ^0C (85.5 K)) - BoilingPt ( -42.09 ^0C (231.1 K))

12:04 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; but

12:04 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot check Water (molecule)

12:05 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Checking: Water (molecule)

12:05 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - incorrect: Density ( 1000 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, liquid (4 ^0C)&lt;br /&gt; 917 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, solid - ZC0110000) - MeltingPt ( 0 ^0C, 32 ^0F (273.15 K)&lt;ref name="VSMOW"&gt;Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water (VSMOW), used for calibration, melts at 273.1500089(10) K (0.000089(10) ^0C, and boils at 373.1339 K (99.9839 ^0C)&lt;/ref&gt;)

12:05 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - incorrect: pKa ( 15.74&lt;br /&gt;~35-36 - ) - pKb ( 15.74 - )

12:05 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - correct: IUPACName ( Water) - CASNo ( 7732-18-5) - RTECS ( ZC0110000 ) - Formula ( H&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;O or HOH) - MolarMass ( 18.01524 g/mol) - BoilingPt ( 100 ^0C, 212 ^0F (373.15 K)&lt;ref name="VSMOW"/&gt;)

12:05 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; too many codes which screw up

12:05 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Which ones work?

12:06 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Livitup has edited watched box containing page Water (molecule) - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water_%28molecule%29&diff=224375530&oldid=224375352 (+46920) - Summary: ' Reverted edits by /Lukebaum to last version by DMacks'

12:06 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule): Added links: http://www.dartmouth.edu/, http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-05/958588306.an.r.html, http://www.dartmouth.edu/, http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-density-specific-weight-d_595.html, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hph.html, http://edocs.tu-berlin.de./diss/2003/schlueter_oliver.pdf, http://www.biophysics.org/education/parsegian.pdf, http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2003/split/648-1.html, http://w

12:09 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Well, normal things work, but if the text in the field is complex, there are some strange things going wrong

12:09 &lt;+walkerma&gt; And which codes screw up? By codes, do you mean parameters like "CAS No." SMILES, etc? Or do you just mean that there are bugs in the code that make the bot fail?

12:09 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I think it is the code .. I may be able to fix, some, but ..

12:09 &lt;+walkerma&gt; OK, how about we limit the use of the bot ONLY to validated data?

12:10 &lt;+walkerma&gt; And those validated data can reside in one or two pages, and all use a standard formate (that doesn't screw up)?

12:10 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; incorrect: Density ( 1000 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, liquid (4 ^0C)&lt;br /&gt; 917 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, solid - ZC0110000)

12:10 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; hmm .. that must be something else wrong ..

12:11 &lt;+walkerma&gt; So we have a page like WP:Chemistry/Validated chembox data where we store things like formula, SMILES, and that is a protected page

12:12 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; ah ..

12:12 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Those data are either transcluded (if we're clever) into the chembox, or they are uploaded by the bot

12:12 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Then the bot watches over those specific data fields

12:12 &lt;+walkerma&gt; in the pages with validated data in them

12:12 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Could that work?

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Beetstra has edited monitored page User:CheMoBot/Data - diff - (+91)- summary: repair

12:13 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; CheMoBot check Water (molecule)

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Checking: Water (molecule)

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - incorrect: Density ( 1000 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, liquid (4 ^0C)&lt;br /&gt; 917 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, solid - 1000 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, liquid (4 ^0C)&lt;br /&gt; 917 kg.m&lt;sup&gt;-3&lt;/sup&gt;, solid)

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - incorrect: MeltingPt ( 0 ^0C, 32 ^0F (273.15 K)&lt;ref name="VSMOW"&gt;Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water (VSMOW), used for calibration, melts at 273.1500089(10) K (0.000089(10) ^0C, and boils at 373.1339 K (99.9839 ^0C)&lt;/ref&gt;)

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - incorrect: pKa ( 15.74&lt;br /&gt;~35-36 - ) - pKb ( 15.74 - )

12:13 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; you don't want the cas there?

12:13 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Water (molecule) - correct: IUPACName ( Water) - CASNo ( 7732-18-5) - RTECS ( ZC0110000 ) - Formula ( H&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;O or HOH) - MolarMass ( 18.01524 g/mol) - BoilingPt ( 100 ^0C, 212 ^0F (373.15 K)&lt;ref name="VSMOW"/&gt;)

12:14 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; That is in a way what is happening at the moment

12:14 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But my data at the moment is in User:CheMoBot/Data

12:14 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But that can be anywhere

12:14 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Rifleman_82: We may need to keep the CAS No. in a separate page, separate from the substance data, so we don't upset CAS

12:14 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; The biggest problem is the format .. see the user talk:CheMoBot/Data

12:14 &lt;+walkerma&gt; But let's get a working system first

12:14 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; yeah, that's the thing

12:14 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; hmm

12:14 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; that will be off-wiki?

12:16 * Rifleman_82 will be semi-distracted... trying to mark lab books now

12:16 &lt;+walkerma&gt; (Just reading your page, Dirk)

12:18 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I seem to recall you saying you liked the XML version best, is that still the case? If so, I'm concerned by the phrase "though some typos (especially in the tags) may render the WHOLE database useless"

12:18 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Yes

12:19 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; xml is very nice to read by the bot .. but indeed, one broken tag and the whole database is 'useless'

12:19 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; That would be detected immediately ..

12:19 &lt;+walkerma&gt; How likely are these bad typos? Or will the page be written by a bot and therefore be "free from all errors" (Ha!) ?

12:19 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; But as you can see, the /Data page is now 'unreadable'

12:19 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; not likely, generally you generate xml from a database

12:20 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; so it is copy-paste, and voila

12:20 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; but if you want to update a field, and damage a tag in that process ..

12:20 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Also there, but that goes for all .. encoding-problems are difficult

12:21 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; An off-wiki database would not have those problems, but then it is really an elite that decides what is right

12:21 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Bit non-wiki-like

12:22 &lt;+walkerma&gt; WP:IAR

12:22 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; we can publish dummps

12:22 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; but keep the working copy offline as XML

12:22 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Yes

12:22 &lt;+walkerma&gt; There is no way around this - you can't have "open validated data"

12:23 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; open can mean public access but not publicly editable?

12:23 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; The page would be protected in the end anyway

12:23 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Rifleman_82: I meant "open" as in "anybody can edit"

12:24 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I still feel for the last option, having a /verified page with a (protected if needed) copy of the verified data

12:25 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Beetstra: Can you elaborate on the last option for us?

12:25 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; well, give each page with a chembox a subpage, say Water (molecule)/Verified

12:26 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; When the main page gets edited, the bot reads the subpage, and if the data does not match, it reports here

12:26 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; (lets make reporting our first goal, when that works we can talk about auto-repair or reverting)

12:26 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; we had that discussion before; i suggested having the chembox data on a protected subpage and transcluded onto the article?

12:27 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; the last time the objection was about namespace subpages

12:27 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Then it would not be open to editing anymore

12:27 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; the other objection then was the "open"ness of the data, which is not the caase here

12:27 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; it seems a bit messy having a few thousand subpages to individually track?

12:28 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; That is indeed quite a job

12:29 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Beetstra: Could we do a test of this, with (say) 50 compounds? Dmacks couldn't make it, but I think he has some good ideas regarding this approach (which he has always advocated)

12:30 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; The last approach, you mean?

12:30 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Yes, the last approach. So maybe you and dmacks could agree how best to do this on a test dataset? Then do it?

12:30 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; OK

12:31 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Will need some time to reorganise the bot for this, but that should not be too difficult

12:31 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I'd suggest emailing dmacks before making the changes

12:31 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Part of the code is there already (in the 'check' function), just has to do something different now, and be somewhere else

12:31 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I'm not throwing away the old code ;-)

12:32 &lt;+walkerma&gt; dmacks said he'll be back from teaching around 6:30pm your time

12:32 &lt;+walkerma&gt; today

12:32 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; By the way, when we have a database somewhere, we can use a bot to generate the subpages for us

12:33 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Can you just take the first 50 compounds from the SDF I sent you a fortnight ago?

12:33 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Or do you need Antony to change it into a different database format?

12:33 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:TimBuck2 has edited watched box containing page Sucralose - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sucralose&diff=224381439&oldid=223285805 (-6) - Summary: ' /* History */ same reference as the previous sentence'

12:33 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Sucralose: Changed: Formula (from '"kon"&gt;,byGenevieveFrank,PennStateUniversity&lt;/ref&gt;Theduoweretryingtotestchlorinatedsugarsaschemicalintermediates.Onalate-summerday,Phadniswastoldtotestthepowder.PhadnisthoughtthatHoughaskedhimtotasteit,sohedid. {{ Fact|date' to '"kon"&gt;,byGenevieveFrank,PennStateUniversity&lt;/ref&gt;Theduoweretryingtotestchlorinat

12:35 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Yes, we can

12:35 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Though I'd prefer to test it on some high-traffic pages

12:35 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; eww .. what is that

12:36 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; hmm, that is a big bot bug .. I think

12:36 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I think proof-of-concept is the most important thing at this point! Also we can do a bit of vandalism here and there to test it as needed

12:37 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; That is why I created user:Beetstra/Propane .. the bot does not know where the chembox is, it finds them by their transclusions

12:37 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; No need to do testing in real-space

12:37 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Once (if?) it works for the first 50, you can extend it to the first 500 - which will have some high traffic articles in it

12:38 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Yep

12:38 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I'd say whichever you think best - real article space, or Beetstra-space!

12:39 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Oh, this is easy to get it to work .. just copy the chembox that is there into the subpage .. don't care if the data is actually correct ..

12:39 &lt;+walkerma&gt; As long as we don't break any rules. Should we work in space like WP:Chem/XXXX ?

12:39 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; Beetstra:Propane, Beetstra talk:Propane :)

12:39 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Don't think so

12:39 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; :-)

12:40 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I don't think there are any rules against having a subpage with the box

12:40 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Are there rules about having 50 subpages?

12:40 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; it is one per page ..

12:41 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Rifleman_82, you aware of any policies or guidelines which may be linked to that info

12:41 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; what, having subpages of mainspace articles?

12:41 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; Propane/chemdata for example?

12:41 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; it is intensely frowned upon?

12:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; that's my recollection

12:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; it is not a *real* subpage anyway because for mainspace, / does not denote a subdirecetory

12:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Subpages

12:43 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We do have things like Propane (data page) already. Can we protect just one section of that page?

12:43 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; no not possible

12:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; and...

12:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; to have an admin go around protecting indef will be quite a chore, even divvying up the load among the many admins we have

12:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; WP is not too keen of adminbots so far

12:45 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Beetstra: What do you think? Can we do this?

12:48 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; We only have to protect if it gets vandalised

12:49 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; So, we would then make xxx (data page) for all, and put a chembox new with verified data on that datapage

12:49 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Can we have the bot simply revert any edits to the validated data?

12:51 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; And how would you add data to that, or repair a typo?

12:52 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Rifleman_82, the easy way of protecting is to use that transclusion-method of protecting

12:52 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; that would make it easy to turn on, or turn off when needed as well

12:53 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; oh yeah, that makes sense

12:53 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; :)

12:53 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; If Walkerma wants to repair or add, we turn it off, keeping an eye on the bot (that can monitor changes to the pages), and turn it on when Walkerma is ready

12:53 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; martin: that means you can protect a long list of articles quite easily...

12:53 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; And when the bot shows vandalism in that time, we can revert because the bot reports it

12:54 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I think the best way normally to add data is as an upload from a database. If it's validated, there should be no typos - if there are, the whole set of data is suspect. I like the idea of transclusion to protect!

12:55 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We should go ahead and do the test, I think. Then we can take a look in a week or two, and see if it will work for the full 500. Does that sound like a plan?

12:55 &lt;+walkerma&gt; (I'm going to have to go to a meeting soon, BTW)

13:01 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I am leaving soon as well

13:01 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; ok guys

13:01 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; cya then

13:09 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Beetstra - can you do the test?

13:10 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Probably, but will be a couple of days before I have that running

13:27 &lt;+walkerma&gt; OK, sorry, my "meeting" showed up! Beetstra: Thanks - if we can have something working by next week I'd be delighted! Thanks for your time.

13:28 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I think I'll lurk here, in case dmacks shows up - please just ping me if you want me

13:29 -!- Jenn [n=Jenn@ip24-250-250-116.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #wikichem

13:33 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Hi Jenn, how can we be of help?

13:33 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Kamagraman has edited watched box containing page Sildenafil - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sildenafil&diff=224393250&oldid=223991847 (+94) - Summary: ' cialis genuine sales today viagra jelly viagra'

13:33 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Sildenafil: Added links: http://www.kamagraman.co.uk/

13:34 &lt;Jenn&gt; Hi! I'm just looking around, actually.

13:35 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; :-)

13:35 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; I love chemobot's capability of catching viagra spammers ..

13:35 &lt;Jenn&gt; Helpful, that.

13:38 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Jfdwolff has edited watched box containing page Warfarin - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Warfarin&diff=224394143&oldid=224369074 (+64) - Summary: ' /* Interactions */ holbrook is free'

13:38 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; Warfarin: Added links: http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/165/10/1095

13:38 &lt;+CheMoBot&gt; user:Beetstra has edited monitored page User:CheMoBot/Settings - diff - (+58)- summary: alternative!

13:39 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; hi jenn

13:39 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; are you on wikipedia?

13:39 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Coincidental, catching viagra spammers this way works better than watching #wikipedia-en-spam all the time

13:39 &lt;Jenn&gt; I am--as thatjenn. I've been inactive for a bit, though.

13:40 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; i see

13:40 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; what brings you to wikichem? haven't seen you around, so i'm a little curious

13:40 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; i suppose you saw this channel from wikipedia;chem?

13:40 &lt;Jenn&gt; Yes. Sorry if random people aren't supposed to stumble in.

13:40 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; OK, I am leaving .. may have the bot working, though .. but need a bit more, waiting for dmacks ..

13:40 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; Oh, they are!

13:41 -!- mode/#wikichem [+v Jenn] by ChanServ

13:41 &lt;+Jenn&gt; I've never used IRC before, and I was just looking to see what existed in terms of chemistry-related channels. My husband spends a lot of time doing Wikipedia-related stuff on IRC, though.

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; no, yu're perfectly welcome

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; :)

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; we just haven't had any so far, that's all

13:42 &lt;+Jenn&gt; What goes on here most of the time, if you don't mind my asking?

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; we meet here once a week,

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; midnight my time, GMT 1600

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; discuss whatever happens

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; hmm

13:42 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; lemme find it for yu

13:43 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemistry/IRC_discussions

13:43 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; we talk about chemistry stuff

13:43 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; talk about manual of style, validation of data recently

13:44 &lt;+Jenn&gt; That is in fact the page I came here from, but I found it via some random Googling and then hadn't found it again. Thanks for the link.

13:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; heh, alright

13:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; the logs are published, if you're interested

13:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; but only for the official meetings

13:44 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Yeah, I think I'm going to look at those

13:44 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; good luck, some are very lengthy!

13:45 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Well, I can at least look at summaries first to see if any might be of particular interest.

13:46 &lt;+Beetstra&gt; See you later!

13:46 -!- Beetstra [n=djbeetst@Wikimedia/Beetstra] has quit ["Bye Bye"]

13:47 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; :)

13:47 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Jenn: Hi! I was at the meeting earlier, and just stayed logged on, so I read your discussion. You're very welcome to join us

13:48 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We've got a set of validated data, including some CAS nos that CAS themselves gave us, and so we're discussing how to maintain a validated set of data in Chemboxes

13:49 &lt;+Jenn&gt; I'm assuming "we" is just people who are interested in the chemistry wikiproject?

13:50 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Yes, absolutely

13:50 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Interesting problem. I'm still learning all the ins and outs of how Wikipedia works, so do forgive me if I ask any silly questions.

13:51 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Please do ask some silly questions! We're doing new things, so we may well miss things that are obvious...!

13:53 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Is there a standard way of locking/protecting part of an article? Obviously that would introduce problems of maintaining information if anything changed, but... I'm just wondering what basic tools exist.

13:54 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; no can't protect part

13:54 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; all or nothing

13:54 &lt;+Jenn&gt; *nods*

13:55 &lt;+walkerma&gt; However, you can transclude data in from another protected page, into an unprotected one

13:55 &lt;+walkerma&gt; That's what we plan to do

13:55 &lt;+Jenn&gt; That's the kind of thing I was wondering about

13:55 &lt;+Jenn&gt; heh

13:55 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Transclude - do you know the term OK?

13:56 &lt;+Jenn&gt; I assume it means what it looks like it means.

13:56 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Load information from a separate page, maintained from that separate page, on another page?

13:56 &lt;+walkerma&gt; An image file is in effect transcluded into an article - it's loaded in from an outside place when you look at the article

13:56 &lt;+Jenn&gt; *nods*

13:58 &lt;+walkerma&gt; So Beetstra is writing a bot that can check for edits to specific fields. If those fields involve validated data, the bot will revert those fields to what they were

13:58 &lt;+walkerma&gt; The problem is to be specific, and of course to allow people to edit non-validated data

14:00 &lt;+Jenn&gt; But if there are only specific fields that are validated data, that does seem doable. Is there a way of tagging information as validated or not? (That is, I'm sure not all the CAS numbers on the site are validated, so it's not like you can just protect that field in every box.)

14:02 &lt;+walkerma&gt; You're right. We have a set of perhaps 6000 articles with validated data (formula, InChI, InChIKey, SMILES, IUPACName) as a database file (SDF format)

14:02 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Sorry- I meant to say - we have 6000 topics

14:03 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We haven't uploaded the validated data yet

14:03 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We plan to flag the field as "Validated InChI" or some such thing

14:03 &lt;+walkerma&gt; (I'd like to see it in bright blue or something, as well)

14:04 &lt;+walkerma&gt; The CAS nos are only available for about 3000-4000 of those 6000

14:04 &lt;+Jenn&gt; So... this might be a clunky way of doing this, but could the box be reformatted to include both, say, a validated and an unvalidated/editable field? ... I am too late for every part of this discussion.

14:05 &lt;+Jenn&gt; I think I will just let you tell me what the solution is instead of trying to think ahead.

14:05 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Reformatting the box would be a LOT of work. It could be done, but I think we hope to expand the amount of validated data. If the box gets fixed in a new format, that could be rather inflexible with regard to this expansion

14:06 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Also, we want like info to go with like info

14:06 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; gotta go

14:06 &lt;+Rifleman_82&gt; night all

14:06 &lt;+walkerma&gt; And some compounds may have validated InChI & smiles but not validated CAS#

14:06 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Bye!

14:06 -!- Rifleman_82 [n=Rifleman@wikipedia/Rifleman-82] has quit []

14:07 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Okay.

14:07 &lt;+Jenn&gt; How do you go about flagging that field, then?

14:07 &lt;+walkerma&gt; We would like to keep like parameters together - structural properties (formula, structure drawing, molar mass); physical properties (MP, BP etc) and so on

14:07 &lt;+Jenn&gt; of ourse

14:07 &lt;+walkerma&gt; What do you mean "Flagging"?

14:08 &lt;+Jenn&gt; "We plan to flag the field as "Validated InChI" or some such thing"

14:08 &lt;+Jenn&gt; I think I fundamentally misunderstood this statement.

14:08 &lt;+walkerma&gt; OK, I just wanted to check! We can add new parameters to the Chembox fairly easily

14:09 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Beetstra will just add a new parameter like "Validated InChI". The reader will see that it is different from a simple InChI

14:10 &lt;+walkerma&gt; My guess is that his bot would remove the field that says InChI= and replace it with ValidatedInChI=

14:10 &lt;+walkerma&gt; With the data uploaded from the protected page

14:10 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Okay, I didn't realize you could replace fields on an individual page.

14:11 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Yes

14:12 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Let's say that Propane has an entry for Validated InChI (in the database of validated data). The bot could put that info into the article Propane without affecting the rest of the article or Chembox

14:13 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Does that answer your question?

14:14 &lt;+Jenn&gt; And that information would replace the previous, unvalidated field containing that information in the box near the top of the article?

14:14 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Yes, and it would go in the same place as the old information

14:15 &lt;+Jenn&gt; Okay. Makes sense.

14:17 &lt;+walkerma&gt; There are other ways of doing this; we've looked at the possibility of using the Persondata approach, and you can see this in the InChI template at the bottom of tributylphosphine page

14:19 &lt;+walkerma&gt; See Persondata if you need more info. I think we'll probably go with Beetstra's bot approach, though, because I think it's more flexible and also he's willing to go ahead and do it this week!

14:22 &lt;+walkerma&gt; Our goal is to make Wikipedia a trusted source for chemical information. We have the advantage over many sites, that we have people willing to sit down and curate data just to make things better. We want to make sure that the results of that work are not lost through vandalism

14:24 &lt;+walkerma&gt; I have to go in the lab for 5 minutes - by all means post more questions, if I haven't bored you stiff already. I'll stay logged on.

14:24 -!- Jenn [n=Jenn@ip24-250-250-116.ga.at.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving..."]

14:49 -!- walkerma [n=chatzill@admin-151-108.potsdam.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.15/2008062306]"]

--- Log closed Tue Jul 08 14:50:01 EDT 2008