Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Capital District


 * The following discussion is an archived proposal of the WikiProject below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the project's talk page (if created) or the WikiProject Council).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The resulting WikiProject was created at WikiProject Capital District

Description
This is a geography-related WikiProject, which was already started. I was unaware that there was a proposal process and it was suggested that this go through the process even though it's already been started. While it's been stated that some aspects overlap with WP:WikiProject Hudson Valley, this is a location specific to the area surrounding Albany, the capital of New York. The area is said to definitely incorporate four counties, and possibly up to eleven. The area is an imprecise geographical zone, which many cite as a negative, but I feel is one of its best positives. The idea of an imprecise area is similar to that of upstate New York. While some of the area does reside in the Hudson Valley (technically), it is not really considered to be a notable part of that; technically the Hudson Valley extends all the way into the Adirondack Mountains, but that area is known as the "North Country" and my area is known as the "Capital District." Also, much of the CD is not in the Hudson Valley, but in the Adirondacks and the Mohawk River Valley. I am new to starting WikiProjects, and while the work to finish it may be slow, it will be steady. I'm teaching myself how to incorporate the Assessment 1.0 bot with our project template, which is new to me, but I have significant help in doing it. School is currently in session, so it may take some time, but I'm excited to start a WikiProject and will work to make it something to be proud of. Also to note: There is currently a discussion going on about renaming the WP. It was named after the article, which is also under renaming consideration.

Support

 * 1)  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 03:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Camelbinky (talk) 04:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) Daniel Case (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) –Juliancolton Tropical  Cyclone  23:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) Mitch 32 ( Go Syracuse ) 13:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
Thanks Wadester for opening this proposal here. The proposed name seems imprecise to me and I think it should be renamed/moved to New York Capital District or something else which identifies where in the world this is. (I notice that "New York Capital District" is the Wikimedia Commons category already identified for use by the Wikiproject). At Talk:Capital District, i have already proposed renaming that article to be more specific, and there is a Capital district article which lists many official capital districts around the world (but, oddly, not the New York State one).

Also, I think some coordination for this proposal with the Hudson Valley wikiproject, WP:HVNY, is needed. The Hudson Valley wikiproject has defined itself to cover a large area up to and including Albany and Rennselaer Counties, two counties in the heart of the region covered by the current proposal. Perhaps it should be the Hudson Valley project which reduces its scope. Having overlapping WikiProject areas makes for awkwardness and redundancies; for example is every historic site or other geo-based article in the overlapping area to be tagged by both wikiprojects? I think that would be confusing and unhelpful to potential new editor/members. There are other geo-based wikiprojects that wholly include others, like many U.S. city-based wikiprojects lying entirely within one state wikiproject, but that is simpler to handle: tagging an article to the New Orleans wikiproject is understood to add it to the scope of the larger Louisiana wikiproject.
 * Update: I posted notice of this proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hudson Valley where there already was some discussion going on. Would it be best to just combine forces and rename WP:HVNY to cover the Capital region explicitly, say New York Hudson Valley and Capital Region or something like that? doncram (talk) 04:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They're really different regions. While I've done a lot of work on some CD articles, and tagged them as within the HV project, my feeling is that there's enough of a difference in regional identity that separate projects are needed. There are certainly enough editors to begin such a project ... I've been waiting a while for this, which is why I added my name to it. Someday there will be enough editors to start things like WikiProject Adirondacks As for the naming issue, I find in the capital district article that most countries' autonomous areas usually have some proper official name of their own (e.g. Australian Capital Territory) which is how their articles are named. Only in New York State, oddly enough, does such an unofficial region acquire its own sobriquet. Daniel Case (talk) 16:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If they are really different regions, does that mean that you agree to redraw the scope of WikiProject Hudson Valley? I think DanielCase and JulianCotton should both perhaps be willing to do that, and are key members of the Hudson Valley wikiproject.  I think they should support the Capital District (or New York Capital District) proposal by doing that, rather than by putting down an unqualified support vote for this one, without clear boundaries for either now.  Please, qualify your support for this one, and/or show your support by agreeing to revise Hudson Valley's scope.  Relatedly, I notice at Stub types for deletion/Log/2009/January/22 a proposal to delete the first draft stub for the new wikiproject.  One reason, as i understand it, is that the scope of the wikiproject is not clear.  I think it would do the 2 co-proposers a favor if the the scope would be clearly defined, and would be disjoint from the HV wikiproject. doncram (talk) 05:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally don't see any harm in overlapping. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  05:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, on a basic level, is there enough support for this wikiproject? Other subprojects within New York such as wp:SYR, wp:HVNY, and wp:NYC have varying degrees of success. I don't know if there is enough energy to handle rating of articles and all the other stuff involved in a wikiproject. If it is just a few members, it may not be worth all the overhead involved, and perhaps it would be best to have an active Task Force or other subgroup focussing on the NYS capital region within wp:NY (itself not yet a very actively successful wikiproject in my view). doncram (talk) 04:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You forgot WikiProject Long Island, which is also pretty active (and you could also take note of WP:NYSR, a subproject of New York as well as USRD. I really think New York, like California (with which I believe you also have some familiarity :-)) is better handled as a WikiProject by breaking it up into regions and leaving the state-level project to handle statewide topic articles, state-level elected officials and county, region and major-city articles (WikiProject Massachusetts also has given birth to Boston and Cape Cod subprojects) Also, I think, WPNYC was established before WPNY, which could be another reason the latter gets neglected so much in favor of regional projects (and I always think the Syracuse one might have be successful had it been established as WikiProject Central New York instead). Daniel Case (talk) 16:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I am going to rejoin this discussion that is part of the broader "CD versus some other name" topic ONLY to put forth FACTS and not my gut-feelings, wishes, hopes, or preferences. Yes these facts are going to be used to support those wishes and preferences though. Since alot of talk has been based on "is this even a wikiproject that will survive, given the success, or lack there of, of others, ie- Syracuse", these facts I will now put forth are perhaps, why the CD wikiproject would survive, and for the record the Syracuse wikiproject has never been shut down or made officially defunct, Syracusans (correction?) could amend any of the problems with it to make it better, ie- more inclusive such as the suggestion to include Cenral New York. 1- Syracuse wikiproject limits itself on its project page to the city itself and only the towns that border it. 2- While Syracuse the city is larger than Albany the city, the Albany-Schenectady-Troy MSA is larger than Syracuse MSA by 200,000 people and covers 2 more counties than Syracuse MSA. 3- Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam CSA, which most closely covers the geographical area of the CD (all the red and pink counties on the map on CD page plus the two I have mentioned as needing to be added to pink in future, then they will cover the same area exactly) is 1,147,914 versus the Syracuse-Auburn CSA of 731,294. Central New York is slightly larger than the CD with 1,177,073 (supporting the assumption some have that THAT name would have succeded more, pulling Auburn, Utica, Rome, Herkimer). City only for both- Albany's first Europeans visited in 1540, versus Syracuse in 1600's (dont know when more precisely sorry); Albany's first permanent settlement started in 1614, Syracuse in 1780's; A's incorporation as a village-1652, S in 1825; A's city incorporation in 1686, S in 1848. A 200 year headstart means more notable events, buildings, and people that articles can be made from, it is not meant to demean or insult Syracuse. Albany is the capital of the state, that brings in more that is notable (thanks to state government, the State Capitol building gets listed as CD, along with the Corning Tower (tallest building in the state outside of NYC)). These facts arent meant to say Syracuse cant or couldnt be a successful wikiproject, they are meant to show that there are differences and to compare the two and say CD cant be successful because Syracuse hasnt lived up to its potential is unfair and is comparing apples to oranges (and is why if anyone ever bothered to check the wikipedia guidelines on all this they would see that is specifically mentioned as something that should not be used as a reason to deny a wikiproject from being made or using a similar wikiproject that has been successful as a reason to make a wikiproject). All of this info, the years, the dates, everything is taken from multiple wikipedia articles and not from outside sources and seem accurate, only controversy was for the Syracuse MSA pop. stat is the one used on the Syracuse MSA article and not the one on the city article, the city article pop stat for the MSA is incorrect, the MSA article itself is the correct one and the one I used. I dont know if any of this helps or was useful or just boring.Camelbinky (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a little hard to follow all that. I dont understand if you mean that the Syracuse Wikiproject experience is relevant or not relevant.  I do agree with Daniel Case and others that the Syracuse WikiProject was too narrowly defined, and shoulda been Central New York or even wider.  The Syracuse WikiProject was 100% dead, after the first 20 or so members put in a lot of effort.  Not one ever piped up once, after i joined, and it has been lonely, poor me :( but i am speaking to the poor experience of the first batch.  A WikiProject is like a party:  you need to have a quorum for it to work.  Joining the New York state wikiproject and help make that party work would seem to be better.  I hope this responds to the gist of what was said above. doncram (talk) 05:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Support

 * Support - At the time I proposed this (under request of doncram), 23 January at 3:16UTC, the page was an admitted skeleton of a WikiProject (please see this historical version). I had an template and even another note stating that there were to be massive changes to the page in the near future. I originally created our project template using the code from the project banner of WPHV. I then asked the help of another user, one that revamped the Schools WikiProject, for help on getting the 1.0 bot up and running. He advised I use a simpler banner, which I did. Since then the bot is up and running, we have our 1.0 index (table) on the page, we have five members, three of which are experienced admins, and we have a very thorough assessments page up to help any new members in classifying articles. A lot has happened since this proposal and I would say we are at where one would expect for a brand new WikiProject. We now have 170 articles tagged (I just reran the bot), which I believe is astounding considering our few members. My next main goal is to recruit other members to the project. This is a viable project and it has already been shown that its members are dedicated to keeping it running and gaining new membership. As for the overlap of territory, this really isn't a big deal. Indeed, even the creator of WPHV agrees. The Hudson Valley article states that the HV extends to the cities of Albany/Troy. Geographically speaking, this is incorrect; it extends well into the Adirondack Mountains. But vernacularly speaking, the Hudson Valley region is centric towards the southern portions of the hudson rivier (typically south of Albany County). Columbia County and Greene County are technically included in the HV region, but they are more economically based on the Capital District, housing many state workers and others that spend their money in the CD. For this reason, I only really see Greene and Columbia Counties as true overlap zones, and I don't believe this is a real pressing issue. My main reason for creating this WikiProject (other than the originally suggestion from Camelbinky) is because when I would tag articles in what is really the Capital District, I would be irked and wished there were a better geographical project for me to tag with. Now there is, and it is up and running and being used heavily for being only five days old. There really is no good argument against overlap. The overlap is minor and not a big deal. In life, these two regions overlap, so should they in Wikipedia-land. It's not a big deal and it just means that the discussion pages will be tagged with an extra project, making them even more specific and correct to life. ~   ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 19:11, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * On a completely unrelated note, why is there a support section here and above this? ~  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 19:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And we just got our 6th member, the aptly named Albany NY. ~  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 19:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose
Second, the border is not defined, particularly not with respect to WikiProject Hudson Valley which currently claims much but not all of the same territory. I think that Hudson Valley people, two of whom having noted their support for this proposal, could/should agree to redraw their borders to be disjoint. That would be much cleaner to readers and editors for all rules and guidelines on adding articles to which wikiproject, etc. The Hudson Valley people can (and have) just join this wikiproject. My third objection is that there is not a clear quorum for the project to go forward, notwithstanding the good intentions of two cofounding members. I think the project would be better as a Task Force within WikiProject New York. doncram (talk) 04:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Conditionally, i oppose the proposal as originally put forward. First, I think the name should be more descriptive, so that it conveys what it means to readers and to prospective members.  I note that the Commons category set up already and the proposed Stub type for the project both use New York or NY in their names.  WadeSter, the proposer, has noted that he would not oppose changing the wikiproject name to New York Capital District.  So, can the wikiProject proposal be amended to reflect that change?

Neutral

 * I would support, but, as Doncram said, "Capital District" is quite ambiguous and, IMO, it can mean many things, from Washington DC to Distrito Capital. —Admiral Norton (talk) 22:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the project's talk page (if created) or at the WikiProject Council). No further edits should be made to this page.