Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/São Paulo (state)

Description
The current state of WikiProject Brazil is a complete mess (and officially semi-active since 2010). To be fair, the majority of geography-based WikiProjects that I have looked at are languishing. In a certain sense, the concept of a WikiProject itself is probably outdated or simply too bureaucratic to encourage active participation of a critical mass of users. In the case of WikiProject Brazil, this is compounded by the fact that Brazil is an enormous country. It would be just as rare to find someone who has the same enthusiasm (or depth of knowledge) for every region of the United States (from Wyoming to New York City), as it would to be find an enthusiast or scholar of both Roraima and Santos. Geographic area is only one aspect of this challenge, of course. Of the more than 27,000 articles tagged with the WikiProject Brazil template, more than a third have not even been assessed for importance. This is hardly surprising with such a relatively small number of active participants. It is my strong belief (and personal experience) that much of the reason that users do not participate in WikiProject Brazil is that they simply are not able to actively engage with the topics that are interesting to them. Tagging articles as related to Brazil—and nothing more specific within the WikiProject—is the same as mixing Wyoming and New York City. It becomes very difficult to find either cowboy or bagels. Other WikiProjects have learned to overcome this problem using task forces. The BRICS countries provide some interesting examples: WikiProject Russia and WikiProject India in particular. But I am not actually interested in trying to solve the entire problem of a failing country-level WikiProject; I think it’s wrongheaded. More accurately, I would like to revitalize WikiProject Brazil, but I think that it would be more sensible to kill it off first. My opinion, after much consideration, is that it would be easier to start from scratch with 26 new, smaller WikiProjects (one for each of Brazil’s federal units). Starting with the largest state, São Paulo, (which happens to also be the one that interests me the most), would be a sort of test. If a small group of us are able to make useful progress with a new pilot WikiProject, it may be worth spending the time to create the others. The old WikiProject Brazil could be cannibalized (in the spirit of Antropofagia) as we carve off new, smaller projects that make more sense and get more participation. I think that WikiProject Brazilian Politics, Brazilian History, and Brazilian Sports could all be good future candidates as well. My final word in this long-winded plea (my apologies) is to state unequivocally that—although I have typed a lot of characters here on this page—I do not support a bloated or overwrought WikiProject in any way. Something along the lines of WikiProject Bavaria would be ideal: a simple, task-oriented tool. Let’s simplify this. Let’s be bold. giso6150 (talk) 03:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

List of important pages and categories for this proposed group
 * people from são paulo (state) (number of pages in the category: )
 * companies based in são paulo (number of pages in the category: )
 * people from são paulo (state) (number of pages in the category: )
 * companies based in são paulo (number of pages in the category: )
 * companies based in são paulo (number of pages in the category: )


 * List of WikiProjects currently on the talk pages of those articles
 * Please invite these and any other similar groups to join the discussion about this proposal. See WikiProject_Council/Directory to find similar WikiProjects.


 * pretty much any topic you can think of has overlap
 * pretty much any topic you can think of has overlap
 * pretty much any topic you can think of has overlap


 * Why do you want to start a new group, instead of joining one of these existing groups?
 * The reasons that I outlined in the first (long) section above. In essence, WikiProject Brazil is too far gone to rescue the whole thing all at once. I would like to divide it into smaller parts and then see if we can rescue whatever is left. WikiProject Brazil was the opposite of too big to fail; it is too big to succeed!

Support
Also, specify whether or not you would join the project.
 * 1) giso6150 (talk) 03:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
/ /  What do you think of the idea of making a new WikiProject São Paulo (state)? —giso6150 (talk) 03:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is a mock-up in my sandbox of what I am proposing: WikiProject São Paulo —giso6150 (talk) 15:38, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Brazilian state-specific Wikiprojects sound like a good idea. Being a Paulista, I can help with a thing or two in the São Paulo one.DanielGSouza (talk) 16:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, — Would you mind adding your signature ( # ~ ) to the Support section above? I will let you know once (if) the administrators approve this request! giso6150 (talk) 16:52, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

It could start immediately as a task force of WikiProject Brazil. Only if proves itself viable, then upgrade to a stand-alone WikiProject. Fgnievinski (talk) 03:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If someone ever wants to attract potential contributors, Category:Universities in Brazil seems a good starting point. Fgnievinski (talk) 21:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Or, more specifically, Category:Universities and colleges in São Paulo (state). I'm considering renaming all article members with Portuguese titles over their English-translation redirects. Fgnievinski (talk) 14:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm in, but I'm unsure about the viability of projects focused on less-populated states such as Roraima or Acre. Indeed, I doubt we're even gonna find enough people for a project about São Paulo, our most populous state. Victão Lopes Fala! 16:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * and Thank you both for your input. I agree that participation is hard to come by. It’s disappointing that more people don’t share our enthusiasm for Wikipedia, but whenever I take part in discussions like this I can understand why so few people are interested. Everyone has been very polite here, of course, but this is frustrating nonetheless. WikiProject Brazil is a bloated, disorganized mess and it has always been (and will always be) far too large. Those facts will not change. Perhaps we could spend dozens of hours making it a more organized space… but it will still have more than 27,000 articles. I firmly believe that even Roraima and Acre would benefit from their own WikiProjects, precisely because they are all so small. Two or three editors casually working on a small WikiProject seems more productive than a dozen or so actively trying to make sense of a behemoth the size of WikiProject Brazil. I am not claiming that any of these proposed smaller WikiProjects would be super active, but at least people wouldn’t have to spend all of their time just trying to find the topics that they are interested in. Casual participation is much easier on a small, well-organized project (of any kind). Just as we should choose categories that are as narrow and meaningful as possible, so too should there be WikiProjects that are a manageable, friendly size.


 * I hope that another administrator or two will weigh in and recognize the merit of my arguments. If we are unable to get WikiProject approval, I will begrudgingly move ahead with redesigning WikiProject Brazil to include a bunch of task forces, but I am dubious about how successful that will be. It will also be much more labor intensive. Thanks again for your comments. —giso6150 (talk) 02:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Frankly, you don't need to fix the whole WikiProject Brazil to start a São Paulo Task Force there -- simply ignore what you don't need. Please consider giving it a try: WP:TASKFORCE. Fgnievinski (talk) 06:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I have gone ahead and created four new task forces to help slog through the backlog of articles to be assessed at WikiProject Brazil. Once the larger project is better organized, I may revive this proposal.


 * I do love Wikipedia, but I think that it is breathtakingly absurd that WikiProject Taylor Swift (with its 72 articles) gets approved, but a project to organize the articles about a Brazilian state with a population of 44 million people is met with such resistance and/or lack of interest. I am not interested in debating the reasons that this might be the case and I am in no way bitter about it. Using task forces to aid in the clean-up of WikiProject Brazil has been easier than I thought and it has generated some excellent cooperation… It makes sense. I can’t say that I would say the same for creating a WikiProject for a single, (rather unremarkable) pop star. —giso6150 (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for giving Task Forces a chance. By the way: it'd seem appropriate to advertise the new TF among users in Category:Wikipedians_in_Brazil, Category:Brazilian_Wikipedians, Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_Brazil; a WP:BOTREQ might be able to assist you. Fgnievinski (talk) 06:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)