Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Shogi


 * The following discussion is an archived proposal of the WikiProject below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the project's talk page (if created) or the WikiProject Council).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The proposed WikiProject was not created

Description
To create new pages and edit existing pages related to the board game Shogi Marchjuly (talk) 01:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

List of important pages and categories for this proposed group
 * shogi titles (number of pages in the category: 12 )
 * shogi (number of pages in the category: 10)
 * japanese shogi players (number of pages in the category: 5)
 * american shogi players (number of pages in the category: 3)
 * shogi players (number of pages in category: 3)
 * shogi video games (number of pages in the category: 9)
 * shogi variants (number of page in category: 40)
 * shogi anime and manga (number of pages in this category: 3)
 * shogi stubs
 * shogi theory
 * shogi castles
 * shogi openings
 * shogi titles (number of pages in the category: 12 )
 * shogi (number of pages in the category: 10)
 * japanese shogi players (number of pages in the category: 5)
 * american shogi players (number of pages in the category: 3)
 * shogi players (number of pages in category: 3)
 * shogi video games (number of pages in the category: 9)
 * shogi variants (number of page in category: 40)
 * shogi anime and manga (number of pages in this category: 3)
 * shogi stubs
 * shogi theory
 * shogi castles
 * shogi openings
 * japanese shogi players (number of pages in the category: 5)
 * american shogi players (number of pages in the category: 3)
 * shogi players (number of pages in category: 3)
 * shogi video games (number of pages in the category: 9)
 * shogi variants (number of page in category: 40)
 * shogi anime and manga (number of pages in this category: 3)
 * shogi stubs
 * shogi theory
 * shogi castles
 * shogi openings


 * List of WikiProjects currently on the talk pages of those articles
 * Please invite these and any other similar groups to join the discussion about this proposal. See WikiProject_Council/Directory to find similar WikiProjects.



Although there are a few Wikipedia articles on shogi, the total number is far less than found on Japanese Wikipedia (There are 65 Japanese Wikipedia pages listed in the category "shogi" alone). Most of the articles currently on English Wikipedia only provide basic information and could stand to be improved. Many of these pages seem to have been created by persons (possibly native Japanese speakers) who are not native speakers of English and, therefore, need to be edited both in terms of grammar and word usage. There are also many pages that do on currently exist, but which should, in my opinion, be created, e.g., the "Japanese Shogi Association", the "Ladies Professional Shogi Association", the "Federation of European Shogi Associations", etc. While it's true that shogi is not yet as internationalized as say chess or go, there are still quite a few people who play it worldwide and its popularity is constantly increasing. This is, in my opinion, enough of a reason to warrant its own WikiProject. In additional to the actual game, shogi or shogi themes are often used in popular culture such as anime and manga.
 * Why do you want to start a new group, instead of joining one of these existing groups?

I think it's important for a wide range of people to be involved in this project, so all are, of course, welcome to participate; However, since most of the primary source materials will be in Japanese, it is important to have a least a few people with advanced Japanese language skills (particularly reading) to help with any translation work. In addition, experienced shogi players and wiki editors would be most welcome to help with wording and editing. Thank you --- Marchjuly (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Support
Also, specify whether or not you would join the project.
 * 1) Marchjuly (talk) 01:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC), I am willing to join this project.
 * 2) Support. I have very little knowledge of this game so I can't really contribute to the project, but I definitely think it needs better coverage as a game in its own right rather than as a "chess variant". MaxBrowne (talk) 09:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. I'll be happy to help what little I can. OneWeirdDude (talk) 01:46, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * 4) Support. It's very good idea. Jawiki has over 3.000 shogi articles. Ruwiki (which is my home project) over 100, and I could help a bit with translating of it. I think, it's good to use more nice shogi pictures there (not much of them in wikicommons, so there's also a big work of finding and downloading it).Shogiru (talk) 09:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. I'll definitely try to help in whatever way I can. Double sharp (talk) 14:38, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * 6) support well, i guess i should type since i'm going crazy adding shogi info.... – ishwar   (speak)  01:15, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion
Wouldn't this be better as a taskforce shared between WPJAPAN and WPCHESS? (or WPGAMES if WPCHESS is unacceptable) -- 70.24.244.161 (talk) 05:34, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * @70.24.244.161:  I think you're probably right and it would probably be best for any shogi-related project to start off as taskforce of one or more established projects such as WP:BTG and WP:JA to get the ball rolling. It could always be branched off into its own project later on as needed. I initially made this proposal after noticing that there were separate WikiProjects for Chess and Go. Although there are some similarities between chess and shogi, I never viewed shogi as being a chess variant; I've always considered it to be it's own game. So, I thought that a project might be a good way of finding other editors interested enough in shogi to start creating new articles or improving existing ones. Thanks for spreading the word and posting on those other WikiProject pages. - Marchjuly (talk) 06:39, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think WikiProject Chess is much concerned with Shogi overall. It has a common ancestor with chess but it developed in a very different direction and the two games have a completely different character. Apart from the Shogi article itself, which is ranked low importance, there shouldn't really be any Shogi-related articles within the scope of WikiProject Chess. WikiProject Board and table games are the people you need to talk to. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:28, 29 April 2014 (UTC) Addendum: In Chinese, chess is called Guoji xiangqi ("International xiangqi"). In other words, from the Chinese point of view, xiangqi is the default game, and "international xiangqi" is a variant of xiangqi. It is western-centric to refer to the various traditional games of the Chaturanga family as "Japanese chess", "Chinese chess" etc, just as it is Sinocentric (is that a word?) to refer to chess as "international xiangqi". It is even more western-centric to refer to these ancient, long-established games as "chess variants". (BTW the Japanese more diplomatically call chess "chesu", using an English loan-word). MaxBrowne (talk) 08:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Like almost all words written in katakana, チェス (chesu) can also be expressed in kanji as 西洋将棋 (せいようしょうぎ) which broken down literally means "west(ern)" (西洋) "shogi" (将棋). That, however, is only the type of thing you'll find in a dictionary, on a kanji test, or perhaps as a question on a TV quiz show. For all intents and purposes, チェス is used almost 100% of the time when referring to "chess". - Marchjuly (talk) 21:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Shogi certainly deserves better coverage on wikipedia, unfortunately there are few people in the English speaking world who know anything about the game, and the subset of English speakers who know about shogi and edit wikipedia is even smaller. A WikiProject dedicated to shogi would be unlikely to attract more than a handful of contributors. Does wikipedia have a concept of subprojects, i.e. projects within projects? If so, it could be a subproject of WikiProject Board and Table games, but definitely not a subproject of WikiProject Chess. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:12, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * @MaxBrowne:  Thank you very much for the suggestion. I know even less about Wikipedia and its workings than I do about shogi, so any advice I get on the way things work here is most appreciated. Personally, I agree with what you posted above about the relationship between shogi and chess, especially as it pertains to Wikipedia. FWIW, my experience with the game has been almost entirely based upon 20+ years of OTB play (tournaments, club games, friendly games) here in Japan. Of course, that certainly doesn't make me an expert on all things shogi; it just perhaps gives me a different set of experiences (ones that are not primarily based upon chess) to draw from and also gives me access to more detailed shogi-related materials/media than what is currently available in English. There are so many shogi-related pages in Japanese Wikipedia that translating them all would be huge task to try and tackle; Moreover, I'm not sure if it's even best approach to take. So, I thought a Wikiproject would be a good way to find others interested in shogi willing to get together and discuss ways to increase shogi's presence in English Wikipedia. I'm actually quite happy working with others to improve shogi articles and certainly do not wish to exclude anyone from the process. I just feel that if there was some kind of formal (shogi-related) Wiki structure for everyone to work within, then editing would possibly be less haphazard.  - Marchjuly (talk) 05:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Shogi is "Japanese chess". Xiangqi is "Chinese chess". Janggi is "Korean chess". Makruk is "Thai chess". They all are "variations of chess" (where "chess" does or doesn't equate to FIDE orthochess, depending on the context in reliable sources) and have their own independent characters. Everyone knows that. To say "it doesn't seem to me xyz should be called or categorized as a 'variant' of chess" isn't consistent with reliable sources, is reading one's own definition into word 'variant', and really is subjective and arbitrary too. (Proof: Glinski's hexagonal chess is a "chess variant", right? Right. David Pritchard thought so too. But the inventor didn't see it that way: "The inventor is at pains to stress that Hexagonal Chess is not a chess variant but a game in its own right; even so, the close affinity of the two games cannot be escaped." [Brain Games, 1982, p. 90].) The point is that what someone thinks or doesn't think is "appropriately called a chess variant" is subjective and arbitrary (and so likely WP:OR). The other point is that all of the traditional chesses listed above need to stick together wherever they are categorized. Last, trying to segregate those traditional chesses from chess (FIDE orthochess) categorically is, IMO, a cause that cannot succeed (if that indeed is the proposal here; am not sure exactly if that is what is being proposed here). Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 07:54, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. All feedback is welcomed. This is just a proposal to establish a WikiProject for shogi. Nothing about it is intended to offend anyone. If enough people think this is a good idea, then they will support it. If they don't, they won't. So far only three people have commented and only one other person has said they support it, so I don't think anything is going to be happening anytime soon. Thanks again. - Marchjuly (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't know why or basis you assume offense might have been taken. (Do you see anything personal in my post? I don't. Please don't insert what isn't there.) And did you notice or approve, how your list of sign-up members to your proposed project, was recently transformed into some sort of unclear voting referendum? (Did you intend or support or want that?! I suspect no. Then perhaps you should return it to its original purpose. [I don't know in what world of langugae "Support" title for member signup list is "more neutrally" titled "Decision"?! Just saying.]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:58, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ihardlythinkso:  I wasn't trying to insert anything into your post or infer or imply you were offended. Sorry if it came off like that. It was just meant as a general statement, but I have stricken it out to avoid any further misunderstanding with anyone else. Also, I didn't move the "Support" section. That was done by another editor named u|Max Browne so you edited his post and not mine and the editsum about making things "more neutral" was also made by Max Browne's so you're commenting on his editsum and not mine. The word "Support", however, is the wording used by pretty much all of the Wikiproject proposals at WP:WPPRO so I don't see why it needs to be changed to "decision". I will move the section back to where it originally was since that seems to be location were it is on most Wikiproject proposals. Thanks for the heads up. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's reasonable to suppose you apparently thought someone was "offended", why else would you have brought up the word/topic?! I already knew/know you didn't move the "Support" section. But you are incorrect, I did not "edit [another editor's] post". (I have no idea why you asserted I did.) I'm glad you restored the section title and location, since I think there was nothing wrong with your original intent and purpose for it. Cheers, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 13:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I really apologize for misreading that diff and making that assertion. That was a careless mistake on my part and I'm sorry for any trouble it may have caused you. I have stricken the part about you making the edit because it is not true. As for the use of the word "offended", it was really just meant to be a general comment and not particularly directed towards you or any other specific person. This may be hard to understand, but humble expressions like that are quite common in Japanese and used all the time in everyday speech, especially in formal situations, so its probably something I've just come to say (without thinking) in English as well. - Marchjuly (talk) 14:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think shogi is sufficiently distinct from FIDE chess that it wouldn't be a stretch to give it its own WikiProject: this also is suggested to me by the fact that it has spawned its own variants. But yes, I would say that it is a chess variant, at least in the sense that it has a royal (objective) piece and has pieces that move. Double sharp (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the project's talk page (if created) or at the WikiProject Council). No further edits should be made to this page.