Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy/Review/Archive

Speculation?
I haven't had chance to read the whole article yet, but from the start I'm worried it may have a lot of speculation. I'm replaying Final Fantasy X at the moment by chance, and I don't remember speech that confirms the following: "Zanarkand, while highly advanced, relied on summoners instead of machina to protect themselves from aggressors. Bevelle, on the other hand, had put all of its resources into building highly advanced military machina, and hence, Zanarkand stood no chance. They met for battle on what is now called the Calm Lands, and Zanarkand's army was decimated." This sounds awfully crufted to me, sorry. — Cua HL   10:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is no speculation, this speech is mentioned in the game, although you're not obligated to hear it. Everyone who played Final Fantasy X should remember the old scholar you encounter on the Mi'hen road, if you talk to this scholar through the game and then you talk to him the last time you see him on mount Gagazet, you can ask him multiple questions about Zanarkand and that's where you'll learn about this. Fun fact, you learn too is that Sin is a kind of summon, unless I've understood the speech in a way I was not supposed too or if we already were supposed to know this. – DarkEvil 15:45, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, basically the entire article is based on the speech Maechen gives on Mount Gagazet. I would bet my life that it's all factually accurate.PiccoloNamek 15:54, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * You know what, I have a save game at the end of Final Fantasy X with everything unlocked on my PS2, so i will play later and make sure that everything is correct about the Maechen's speech. – DarkEvil 17:14, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, well apologies for that.. I must admit I never listen to Maechen anymore. The first time was enough. At least I got the ball rolling :D — Cua HL   17:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, I think the article looked better with the TOC. Without it, the formatting is messed up. In fact, a good TOC is a requirement for FA status. Also, for your convinience, here is Maechen's speech:

Maechen's speech There is a legend you know.

Just before the horrible sin appear... A terrible war raged between Bevelle and Zanarkand. When the armies of bevelle attacked mt. gagazet, they heard a song echoing across the snowy slopes. "Tis a song from an Otherworld," they said.The soldiers panicked and ran. And then, as if to pursue the retreating armies, sin appeared. Sometime later, scouts from bevelle braved the mountain. On the other side, they wintenessed the ruins that had been zanarkand. The city destroyed, and not a single soul left standing gone. In it's, place a multitude of the fayth had gathered on gagazet. They were singing a song. It's the song we now call "The hymn of the fayth" And that, as they say is that.

Rumors flew in bevelle about sins sudden appearence. They said that the people in Zanarkand has become the Fayth and they had called sin. And that the man responsible was none other than the summoner Yevon, ruler of Zanarkand. Yes the lord father of Lady Yunalesca. On the eve of Zanakrands destruction Lady Yunalesca has fled to safety with her husband Zaon. Later the two used the final Summoning to defeat Sin. Yet the people of Bevelle still feared Yu Yevon. It was to quell is wrath that they revered him, and first spread his teachings. And so were born the temples of Yevon. I suppose it's possible Yunalesca had planned it that way from the start. A fair trade, she defeats sin in exchange for her lord fathers honor. Of course there is no proof. No, the facts are lost in the mists of time. And who'd admit Yevon was an enemy of Bevelle. You can bet the temples had a hand in covering that up. And that as they say is that.

Also here is a translation of Maechen's Calm Lands explanation from the Japanese version of the game. Taken from gamefaqs:

Calm Lands explanation They come across Meichen. (Meichen) "I wonder if you want me to tell you about this plain?" (Tidus) "Please." (Meichen) "As you may know, this plain was once a battlefield. It's a war known as the Machine War, fought between the Beberu and Zanarkand.  As a result of the war, it became a wide-open field without anything.  Soon, the time passed...... The summoners set their eyes on this uninhabited land.  Here, no matter how fierce the battle, they will not cause damage to the surroundings.  That's why this is just the place for their final battles against Sin.  It seems that summoners with the ultimate summon waited here for Sin.  We can only imagine how they felt.....  Anyway, Sin is defeated here, and a Calm Season visits Spira.  Therefore, because Nagi means 'calm' in Japanese, this place came to be known as Nagi Plain without anybody naming it.  I guess that's pretty much it."

There is no line in Maechen's speech in Final Fantasy X that explains about this: '''Zanarkand, while highly advanced, relied on summoners instead of machina to protect themselves from aggressors. Bevelle, on the other hand, had put all of its resources into building highly advanced military machina,'''. However, having read several story summaries of Final Fantasy X-2, it is made perfectly clear that Zanarkand relied on summoners while Bevelle relied on machina exclusively. Because machina can be mass produced, Zanarkand was doomed from the very beginning.

Also, here is an excerpt from Tidus' conversation with Bahamut's fayth on Gagazet (when he touches the Fayth and passes out.)

Tidus' conversation with Bahamut's fayth "Fayth: Long ago, there was a war.

Tidus: Yeah, with machina, right?

Fayth: Yes. A war between Zanarkand and Bevelle. '''Bevelle's machina assured their victory from the start. Spira had never seen such power. The summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance. Zanarkand was doomed to oblivion.'' That's why we tried to save it -- if only in a memory.

Tidus: What did you do?

Fayth: The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war...They all became fayth -- fayth for the summoning."

I hope I've made my point. The line is factually accurate, and don't you dare doubt me again. =D PiccoloNamek 00:00, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's it. This is accurate from the game. No need to say that nothing of this is fancruft or anything else as this is the true story. I'm not going to spoil it if you haven't played FFX-2 to its limits, but Maechen has a good reason to be able to know this. &mdash; DarkEvil 13:25, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, but Wikipedia isn't a place for covering spoilers. Maybe we should mention Maechen? In fact, do we have a Final Fantasy X characters article? — Cua HL   14:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No, there aren't any Final Fantasy X characters article, only the category which provides link to different characters but nothing like a list. &mdash; DarkEvil 14:11, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should mention Maechen in the article. My intent with the article was for it to read somewhat like history or reference book. I think it would ruin the feel of the article if we started adding stuff like "Maechen said" or what have you. I'm thinking perhaps we could possibly list Maechen and Bahamut's speeches in a references section though.PiccoloNamek 17:14, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * While it is factually accurate, I think it's entirely too detailed a description, and too obscure a fact, for Wikipedia (hence, fancruft). I wouldn't mind seeing the "beginning" description cut down to one or two paragraphs, essentially "Bevelle and Zanarkand war, Yevon creates the Fayth and Sin, Zanarkand is utterly destroyed, Lady Yunalesca creates the Final Summon and defeats Sin, but Yu Yevon makes another one, and Bevelle starts worshipping Yevon to appease him." Details about the war are completely unneccessary, just keep it to what has a direct effect on the game. -- Nifboy 05:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

No... just... no. Nobody else has ever said anything about the length of the article. In fact, most people seem to enjoy reading it. Furthermore, all of the information presented is directly related to something that is occuring during the present time. This article is about the land and history Spira after all, not just its geography. Where else would we put a summarization of the backstory? Certainly not in the FFX main article, (which has a summary of the "frontstory"), the article is already long enough as it is. This way, we have an acceptable explanation of the game's entrie story without going overboard. Besides, is it really that long? I can read the entire thing in just about a minute.PiccoloNamek 06:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * I never said anything about the length of the article either. I just said the information is entirely too detailed and obscure. I have since mercilessly trimmed that particular section, and wonder if anyone else has any comments? Nifboy 06:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I think you shouldn't make such sweeping edits to an article without some kind of general agreement that it should be so, especially when said article is under peer-review. Whether or not the information is too detailed or obsure is a matter that should be debated upon, and not something that is up to your personal whim. Think about it, the people who are reading this are probably final fantasy fans to begin with, so the information would not be obscure to them. Secondly, anyone who isn't a fan would probably enjoy the read and then the information wouldn't be obscure to them afterwards. I don't think the beginning section is at all unencyclopedic or unuseful. If a general consensus is reached that the section is in fact unneeded I will accept thia and yeild, but not just to one guy who personally happens to feel that way.PiccoloNamek 06:27, August 18, 2005 (UTC


 * Nope, Wiki guidelines explicitly say Be bold and I honestly think it's an improvement; more concise and without any extra narrative about Bevelle's soldiers. Nifboy 06:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah and it also says don't be reckless either, and I believe that removing such a huge section from an article that's already been well-established for nearly a year now on a personal whim is indeed reckless.PiccoloNamek 06:36, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't consider three narrative-heavy paragraphs "huge" but I suppose that's preference. Again, I'd like to hear some opinions other than yours, because it's obvious we don't agree so much (you because it's "your" work and me because I despise cruft, which is what I see it as). Nifboy 06:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it is "my" work, considering I wrote the vast, vast bulk of the article by myself. I would even say at least 95% of the content was originally written by me personally. Normally, I would never, ever try to own an article, but I have trouble with this particular one. Tons of different people have edited on this article, and I welcome and appericiate their efforts. It's obvious they have helped to improve it greatly. But when someone comes in and changes a good 50 percent of the article out of nowhere, it activates something defensive within me. Please forgive me. Anyway:


 * I contend that:


 * The information is not too detailed, too useless, or too obscure, especially considering who is going to be reading it. Wikipedia guidelines state: Consider Your Audience. It's only 3 and a half paragraphs, summarizing the important events that took place before the game started.
 * If it was as bad as you say, it would have been removed a long time ago, especially considering that Wikipedia administrators have edited on this article.
 * Nobody else has ever mentioned the section being too long or "crufted" Now, if it was a 10 paragraph section speculating on why Zanarkand and Bevelle might have gone to war, that would be different.
 * Story summaries aren't at all unheard of on Wikipedia.

I propose that because this article is under Final Fantasy Peer-Review, that we should wait and get everybody's opinion on this particular issue. If the majority says that it is indeed unneeded, I will do the honorable thing and accept it with grace. Until then, I will defend what I think is a perfectly good article.

PiccoloNamek 06:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * I suppose those new edits are a little more fair, but I don't like the de-emphasis on the war between Zanarkand and Bevelle. The war is central to the very story of Final Fantasy X. It set all of the events that would occur for the next 1000 years into motion. Also, some of the edits make the article a little awkward to read. For example, removing the line about the Calm lands makes you wonder exactly why Yevon was so desparate. Surely, not because he was simply at war. So why then? Because he lost his entire army on the Calm Lands! Now all Bevelle has to do is get over Mount Gagazet, and there's Zanarkand! Why was Bevelle on the summit of Mount Gagazet? Just because? No, because they defeated Zanarkand's army on the Calm Lands, and the slopes of Mount Gagazet lie just on the edge of the Calm Lands! PiccoloNamek 07:19, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * I know my knowledge of the plot isn't great (as you've already corrected me once below) but I was essentially under the impression that, while Sin was "central" to the story, the war leading up to the creation of Sin was merely pretext. Everyone else in the story (Yevon, Yunalesca, etc) are directly interacted with in FFX. The war is only talked about, and only in the context of "This is why Sin exists." Hence, the de-emphasis on the war. While I still don't feel comfortable with the very colorful narrative style (reads like copyvio), I won't press the issue much more. Nifboy 07:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the thing is, if Zanarkand had won, or if Bevelle had never declared war, Sin would never have been created, and the events of Final Fantasy X would never have taken place. Anyway, I made some edits. I kept some of your edits, particularly the ones where you took out some overly flowery phrases like " Not a single survivor was to be seen." and words like "dolorous". I'll admit perhaps that was a little over the top. But I reverted others for the sake of article flow.PiccoloNamek 07:44, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for war
Something has been bothering me lately. We know for certain that Zanarkand and Bevelle fought a brutal war, and that Zanarkand lost utterly, but what we don't know (or at least I don't know) is exactly why that war was fought. As far as I know, it is never stated, in either FFX or FFX2, exactly why these two powers were at odds? Or maybe I just missed something? Does anybody know for sure, because I'd sure like to add the truth to the article.PiccoloNamek 05:07, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * What bothers me is that Tidus knows jack squat about it (or anything else for that matter), despite, y'know, being born and raised in Zanarkand. But that's neither here nor there. Nifboy 05:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

How would he know? He was born in the dream Zanarkand, where Bevelle doesn't exist and the war never took place.PiccoloNamek 06:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I can be a man and admit that I never realized that fact, or I can complain about how muddled the plot seems to be because I didn't "get it" (hell, it works on FFT). Nifboy 06:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Final Fantasy bestiary
I proposed a new look some time ago, but we never decided on what we should do — Cua HL   17:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I still maintain that we should exclude anything that would be better off on Races of Final Fantasy (and we could probably go back to one page this way). I mean, seriously, Al Bhed? Al ****ing Bhed are on a list of "creatures" but not a list of races? Nifboy 03:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Just to bring this a little more up to date: I believe the Final Fantasy bestiary is up and running in a very respectable form right now; the Races of Final Fantasy article is lagging behind a little but its being worked on. I recently added the distinction of sentience to the article intros (before realising that I actually meant self-awareness), which I think helps distinguish which entities belong in which article. Most if not all of the content is now in the right place, I think. Gamemaker 13:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Overall, I found the bestiary very weak. The outdated comment that states that it is a list of ALL beasts makes it look very incomplete. Also, the low resolution images like "mermaid" make it look bad. That bestiary is far below the rest of the work you guys have been doing here. The irony is that Races of Final Fantasy looks pretty good and is a good article, yet is the one being described as "lagging behind". Just the opposite IMHO Renmiri 13:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri
 * If you are not listing all monsters, reorganize: There is nothing wrong with just wanting to give some examples, but it is pointless to make an A-Z list if you are not going to fill it out with all monsters. And it forces the pictures to be too tiny.
 * A front page stating the goal is to just give examples and sporting links to external web pages w/ good bestiaries is a good start. Then I would just put a page for each game or a page for each of the more famous / reused monsters... The mermaid pic won't look so bad while surrounded by similar low resolution images. And the "good looking" monsters wont look so tiny if they get a web page just for them or for their game. Renmiri 13:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Black Mage
A pretty good article overall. You'll want some citations (probably footnote style). I also thing another image toward the bottom, or perhaps an old-school black mage image would really help out. The prose is pretty good. More later. Deckiller 21:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It may also need a slight copyedit, with mdashes and fixes to contractions. It's concise, which is good. Deckiller 21:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)