Wikipedia:WikiProject Illinois/Collaboration/archives/Springfield, Illinois

Improvement Drive (Feb. 2007)
It seems that Kranar has initiated an improvement drive for Springfield. I couldn't agree more. So this is where we will discuss said improving, if discussion is necessary, which it often becomes so.

Anyway, I am going to do a "peer review" style look at it, at least how I do my peer reviews.

First, at a glance I note these issues:
 * The 'Overview' section is a gob of uncited text that probably needs to be titled 'History' and divided up somewhat. It seems Kranar is all over the cites per his message.


 * Um. Isn't there a giant lake, Lake Springfield, really close, you drive over it on I-55, nary a mention of it in this article, would go really well under 'Geography'.


 * The list of Registered Historic Places is way too much. There are just too many for any list. A few in the 'See also' section is all we need, just the major ones: the main Lincoln ones, the State Capitol, the Old State Capitol, the Executive Mansion and that's about it.


 * Image placement in this article is beyond goofy. As an additional note we need to verify the copyright of the Cozy Drive In image.


 * The 'Notable natives' section needs to be pared down.


 * At a glance it looks like it needs a serious copy edit or two or six.

I will post a more thorough review in a bit, it will outline the changes I will probably go ahead and make. Since Kranar is going to go source hunting tomorrow I will try to drop some fact tags into the article to help out.A mcmurray 04:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I did a bit more. Outlined below.

A mcmurray 05:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * First I tried to tweak the intro a bit.
 * Added tags, still needs more.
 * Split up overview into appropriate sections.
 * Cut out the bulk of the historic places on the list and put the ones left under see also. Many of the places are in the article anyway.
 * I added a history section, which right now is mostly just about the tornado last year. We need more on the founding and general history. Since it's the capital it shouldn't be hard to find information.
 * Also, we need to make sure that there are no articles out there for the red linked high schools.
 * I tagged the crap out of the Local culinary creations sections, it needs work, it's interesting but right now it has problems.


 * And one more time.


 * Finished adding fact tags.
 * Converted notable natives (which needs to be renamed) into a list. It needs to be pared down to about six or seven and then the list will work, I think. And I know how faux pas everyone is about lists around here but this kind of information lends itself to it. It really looked and sounded awful as prose. Really.
 * And I still say the history section is very weak.

That's all for now, stay tuned.A mcmurray 05:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Clean Up and Expansion
I am going to be working to try and clean up this article, and try and get it to at least GA status after feeling comfortable with how it looks.--Kranar drogin 04:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As a native and current resident, I too think that this article needs work. I just haven't had the will to do it, especially given possible bias problems. Thanks for iniating the project. The work already done by A mcmurray looks good, both in the edits and the identified issues.


 * For now, I will be content to monitor how things develop since things are in flux. As things develop, if I can contribute, I will. David H. Flint 08:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad to have you on board this little project. : ) If you see any glaring mistakes one of us makes don't hesitate to fix it.A mcmurray 15:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Images
I am dropping all the images that were alongside the Registered Historic Places list here for now.


 * [[Image:Lincoln's Tomb.JPG|thumb|right|150px|[[Lincoln's Tomb]]]]
 * [[Image:Lincoln Home.jpg|thumb|right|150px|[[Lincoln Home National Historic Site|Lincoln's Home]]]]
 * [[Image:Camp Butler.JPG|thumb|right|150px|[[Camp Butler National Cemetery]]]]
 * [[Image:Illinoisoldcapitol.jpg|thumb|right|150px|[[Old State Capitol State Historic Site]]]]
 * [[Image:Illinois Vietnam Veterans Memorial.JPG|thumb|right|150px|Vietnam Veterans Memorial [[Oak Ridge Cemetery]]]]
 * Image:Carillon, Washington Park.JPG|Carillon Washington Park
 * [[Image:Funeral Carriage.JPG|thumb|right|150px|[[Museum of Funeral Customs]]]] A mcmurray 04:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I really wish we had more photos of the city to add into the article. Rklawton is going to get some the next time he is in the city, so we may have to wait until we have those before GA review? Maybe we can find stuff on Google or something.--Kranar drogin 04:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What we need to do is find out what we need. And post a list for Lawton or just here. The major places referenced in the article. We don't need a million images here but enough to illustrate the article well. Then, we can use commons and set up a page there, if there isn't one already, and link to all of the free media available related to the city. Rawk!IvoShandor 06:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Other issues
Some other things I thought up, besides the lake.
 * The Geography section should include physcial geography as well as climate and weather information, averages and the like I think.
 * Interesting info for demographics might include average cost of a home, living wage, etc.
 * The Education section should be broken into summary style.
 * External links need to be checked and, if necessary, cut out or replaced.

Other things I did:
 * Moved the education and reorganized health care
 * Cut nearly all references to businesses. We can find out major employers and put the top one or two somewhere, beyond that it's all advertorial crap.A mcmurray 05:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Tornado
This is an encyclopedic article about the city of Springfield. While the tornado may indeed be newsworthy, it certainly isn't a notable event in the city's history. Please consider removing this section to wikinews. Rklawton 05:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe tornados are a notable event in a city's history, when it leads to declaration of disaster areas, federal and state, for certain it is notable. The damage was enormous. The tornado stuff should definitely stay in the article, it has since been pared down and well cited. This event will not be soon forgotten. Fifty years from now or longer people will be talking about the 06 tornado in Springfield for sure.A mcmurray 19:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tornadoes of March 12, 2006: Why an Entire Section For it is Absurd
As a native of Springfield, I did, infact, experience the tornado when it came. Yes, it was kind of frightening at first; but no one was harmed, nor killed, a few buildings were destroyed. That's it. A few lousy buildings that could easily be rebuilt. The tornadoes of Springfield, Illinois have proved to be newsworthy, receiving one report on CNN. Now, a climate section would make some sense, and making the tornadoes a sub-section. Leopard Gecko 19:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)--Leopard Gecko

Leopard Gecko is 100% correct. A destructive tornado in tornado country is not historically significant. If it were, every wiki page of every town from Springfield to Salina to San Antonio would be dominated by tornado talk. These tornadoes simply are not important enough to merit such huge play in the history section. As a feature in a weather section, certainly.Chilcoot 20:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That assertion doesn't even make sense. Not every single town in the Middle U.S. has been hit by a tornado, that's absolutely ridiculous. I have lived in Illinois my entire life and never even seen a tornado with my own eyes. Ridiculous. Either way I think it will be moved into the Geography section under Climate eventually and combined with information on the only other destructive tornado to hit Springfield, the 1957 one. By that logic a destrutive earthquake in earthquake country is also non notable for a wiki.A mcmurray 21:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Say that Chilcoot, is the same as saying we should eliminate everything with cities and hurricanes together, or earthquakes. These tornado's that hit Springfield were a sort of wake-up call for the city that it isn't involunerable, and that a lot of damage was done there. I think it is something that is worth talking about in the city, as mcmurray said, in the climate section.--Kranar drogin 21:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Submarine
I remembered this, and then I found it. The USS Springfield (SSN-761) is specifically named after the Springfields of Illinois and Missouri. Having trouble finding a source on it, but I know it is around here on the net somewhere. I think this should maybe be included in the begining paragraph, or make a section about it and the other Springfield ships that have referred to it.--Kranar drogin 06:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This would probably go well under the Historic sites section if the section had a better title. Either that or just include the links in the 'See also' section, as they aren't directly related to the city per se.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 08:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Summary - Law and Govt
I saw Kranar added some articles that need to be done. Do we need volunteers? (If we do I gots city departments.) Thus, is every city department notable enough for its own wiki (should I red link them all)? How are we going to approach this? A mcmurray 16:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So what do we think, do the departments get red linked, or just some of them? How do we decide what gets an article and what doesn't here?IvoShandor 07:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Mayors
Here is a list I have found so far here Mayors of Springfield, 1841-2001 (may be incomplete!)

I have moved the list to List of mayors of Springfield, Illinois

I created a link to start this page, I think this is something we should start also, thoughts? Got the idea from Detroit, Michigan.--Kranar drogin 05:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Other articles
I created List of Springfield city departments, which I am not sure how to approach as far as what to wikilink and what not to. I also created Flag of Springfield, Illinois, which I have submitted for DYK on the Main Page. Just FYI.IvoShandor 16:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sister cities of Springfield
There is a separate page Sister cities of Springfield. Shouldn't this just be included in this article? Calineed 16:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally I would say yes, and maybe, depending upon discussion here, I would say yes this time. I think, perhaps, it is an attempt to avoid the article becoming to list heavy as that is a definite detriment to attaining GA/FA status.A mcmurray 16:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I created it to avoid the list situation. When looking at FA, there really isn't much at all as far as lists on a page. Actually, in order to become GA or FA, you can not have lists on the page at all. So I will leave it up to you all, I have created it, but you can move it to the main article if you wish. I just fear that when we go for GA or FA that it will be declined due to the listing.--Kranar drogin 17:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well we could convert it to prose, it just wouldn't get to have the nifty flags.A mcmurray 17:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean with the lists. It's not really bad as a separate article. And I like the flags ;) Calineed 20:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And that article can act as a placeholder allowing for expansion later. Information down the road that could be added might include the circumstances surrounding the designation.A mcmurray 20:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

History
I have taken it upon myself to focus on the history of the city instead of working on the entire article right away. I have found some pretty good sites with a bunch of info that I am going to be adding to the article.--Kranar drogin 17:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This section should be as thorough a summary as possible and refer to . Just my thoughts.A mcmurray 19:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, we do need to create that section. I will add the tag if it hasn't been added already. Been too busy lately to focus on researching, but I am hoping I will have some more time here soon.--Kranar drogin 19:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a couple inaccuracies in the history section as it is now. I am somewhat dissatisfied with some of the sources as a result of this. In the process of trying to rewrite the section, I've decided that it will probably be simpler for me to create History of Springfield, Illinois. Later, I, or someone else, can summarize that article for this History section. I am in the process of writing such an article now, starting with what I've learned and what we already have. Since it will be the first article I've created, I expect that issues may arise. Also, while I find the early history of the city to be full of notable events, it is not as clear to me what should be noted about the city for more recent history. As it is now, the History section only goes to 1910 or so. David H. Flint 23:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If you need any assistance or input or want someone to look at it before it goes live, don't hesitate to ask me here or on my talk page. That journal article I used for the race riot stuff was pretty detailed, might want to get hold of it.IvoShandor 01:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the offer. For now, I have decided to just concentrate the history up to 1850 or so. I do not actually enjoy writing that much, and I also tend to excessively labor over it. Reducing the scope to start should help me concentrate and get started at least. I will still see about getting access to that journal article though, as it should not be too difficult. Though, since you have already read it, if you're inclined, you are welcome to add the relevant section. David H. Flint 19:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I can do that. Don't worry too much about the writing. Just get the main ideas down and the proper refs. I can go over it once its done, no problem. We'll make it shine, no worries.IvoShandor 00:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Education
I have found a link here for the Springfield Public School District 186. I am not sure how you want to go about expanding this section. Any suggestions? Should we include everything on this page, would that be ok?--Kranar drogin 15:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Use summary style. First write a brief overview of the district, I think the education could have subsections, i.e. District #186, Private, Colleges. Looks like there is some stuff there for public and colleges. Do summaries of the High Schools based on their main articles and use the template to link to the main article at the head of the summary.

Like so:

==Education== ===Dist. 186=== ====Lanphier High School

====Sacred Heart Griffith====

ETC...

See what I mean? Hopefully I didn't over explain.A mcmurray 17:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
I don't know about that infobox with that photo. It's more of a sidebar, a seperate article in its own right, it just seems a bit much. Any thoughts?A mcmurray 01:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the only reason I moved it for now was it was a decent picture of what is of Springfield, and that is government. I personally think it makes them look better in the begining, but we need a really good picture of the capital city as awhole. Maybe you will have better lucking finding one in the Commons area? I just say for now, we leave it, but once we get some pictures of the city, we move it right away.--Kranar drogin 22:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it is a good pic for illustrating the city. Maybe I am crazy. Are city infoboxes generally that long?A mcmurray 22:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally, they are longer: Chicago, Detroit, New York City, Austin, Texas as a few examples. And then, to be fair, those cities haven't upgraded to the new city infobox yet either, which I think will be doing a mass change here soon. So they will then be bigger.--Kranar drogin 23:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Saavedra
Andrew Saavedra. I don't know about this guy. A Google search was suspect, turning up only the usual suspects, mirror sites and the like. The page on him sounds like patent nonsense, albeit cleverly disguised. The article is only linked to here and Nights Are Forever. AfD? What does everyone think?A mcmurray 04:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with your assessment. I believe that that page and Andrew Saavedra is entirely fictitious. In fact all the sources I find mention a Kyle Lehning as having been the producer of Nights And Forever. (for instance ) David H. Flint 10:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I also agree. I did my own google search on the guy and have found nothing.--Kranar drogin 11:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I deleted the reference in the article to him, I will begin a PROD.A mcmurray 22:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The AfD is up. Check it out. And voice your support or dismay. AfD for Saavedra.A mcmurray 22:43, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Note: The article was deleted.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 07:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Dates
It seemed to me, as I was tweaking the info in the intro to match the history section, that these dates may be disputed. I propose we verify our specific dates in Springfield history through academic sources. I have access to plenty of online databases for scholarly journals. We could then use those as primary references once the  dates are verified. Any thoughts?A mcmurray 19:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I just found a fascinating reference on early Springfield history at http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilsangam/sanghist.htm. It contains an excerpt of "History of Early Settlers in Sangamon County Illinois" by John Carroll Powers, pub by Edwin Wilson & Co., Illinois 1876. I have written quite a bit using it as a source, primarily for my own edification. Edited down, I think it will serve as a good starting point for the early history of the city. Of course, we should still strive to seek other, primary, sources.


 * It implies that Springfield was officially founded and also became temporary county seat on the same day: April 10, 1821. Specifically: "...have fixed and designated a certain point in the prairie near John Kelley's (sic) field, on the waters of Spring creek, at a stake marked Z. & D., as the temporary seat of justice for said county; and do further agree that the said county seat be called and known by the name of Springfield. ... The point chosen was near what is now the northwest corner of Second and Jefferson streets. The first court house in the county was built on the same spot."


 * This log court house was contracted to John Kelly to build as a for $42.50, but "the court house built in 1821 cost, on the original contract, $41.50 (sic); for extra work, $5.00; for a seat for the Judge, $4.50; and for finishing the building, so as to make it habitable for winter, $20.50, making a total of $72.50." It was not until March 18, 1825 that Springfield became the official county seat. This required a donation of 42 acres in total of land from Elijah Iles and Pascal Enos.


 * Later, in September 1825, a second, frame, court house was built for $519 at "the north-east corner of Adams and Sixth streets". Less than five years later, by February, 1830, it was decided that a brick court house was neccessary. This was completed for $6,841: "... early in 1831, and stood in the centre of the public square, bounded by Washington and Adams, Fifth and Sixth streets. It was a square building, two stories high, hip roof, with a cupola rising in the centre. From the time that court house was erected, all the business of the town collected around the square."


 * In 1837, Springfield was selected as the future capital, contingent on furnishing a site for the state house and $50,000 for its construction. It was decided that in order to raise the neccessary funds from businesses, that the site of the state house would have to be where the court house stood. Therefore, soon after in 1837, the court house was demolished and $50,000 raised. Construction of the new state house began on July 4th, 1837 with the laying of the corner stone during a grand ceremony.


 * The legislature first met in Springfield for a special session in 1839-1840 which began on December 9, 1839. As the new state house was not yet complete, the representatives met at a Second Presbyterian church, on fourth street. It was new and very large building at the time, but was demolished in the summer of 1875. (This congregation still exists, though it is now known as Westminster Presbyterian Church.) The senate met at a Methodist church, and an Episcopal church was used for the Supreme Court. During this special session, a bill was proposed that would release Springfield, then a town of 1100, from its $50,000 requirement. However, Abraham Lincoln objected and the funds were eventually paid, with the final statement on February 19, 1846.


 * It also has much detail about why the capital was relocated. For instance, there are some additional details about the "Long Nine". "In the Legislature of 1836-7 Sangamon county had two Senators and seven Representatives. They were the most remarkable delegation from any one county to the General Assembly, being much taller than the average of human stature. Some of them were less and some more than six feet, but their combined height was exactly fifty-four feet. They were then and are yet spoken of as the 'Long Nine.' The names of those in the Senate were Archer G. Herndon and Job Fletcher; in the House, Abraham Lincoln, Ninian W. Edwards, John Dawson, Andrew McCormick, Dan Stone, Wm. F. Elkin and Robert L. Wilson." They are described as being very shrewd in their endeavors to have the capital moved to Springfield. As a result of all the lobbying "...was the passage of "An act permanently to locate the seat of government for the State of Illinois," which was approved at Vandalia, February 25, 1837." The actual selection of Springfield for the new state capital was conducted by a special joint session of the legislature on February 28, 1937. After three votes, with no city gaining a majority of votes, Springfield was selected on the fourth vote with 73 out of 111 votes cast (presumably at least 10 abstained).


 * David H. Flint 12:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The reference also gives a date for incorporation "A general law for the incorporation of towns was enacted and approved February 12, 1831. April 2, 1832, Springfield was incorporated under that law. October 18, 1832, the county court ordered a re-survey of the town, in order to adjust the discrepancies between the plats of Calhoun and Springfield. The survey was made and acknowledged June 18, 1833, and recorded November 9, 1836." and for the granting of a city charter "By an act of the General Assembly, approved February 3, 1840, a city charter was granted to Springfield. This law provided for an election to be held the first Monday in April, being the sixth day, to adopt or reject the proposed charter. It was adopted, and the first election for city officers was held April 20, 1840."


 * As far as the whole Calhoun thing, it says that Springfield was always known as such after being declared so on its founding as county seat. I think it's worth copying the entire paragraph:"We have already said that a temporary county seat was chosen for Sangamon county, April 10, 1821, and called Springfield. The first survey of public land in the county took place that year. The Rev. John M. Peck, in his Pioneer History of Illinois, says that Springfield was laid out in February, 1822, referring, no doubt, to Calhoun, which was the name given to the first plat of what is now a part of springfield. It is in the northwestern part of the city. The first sale of public lands in Sangamon county took place November 7, 1823. At that sale the lands were purchased upon which Calhoun had been laid out. Four different parties entered each a quarter of as many sections cornering together. The town plat of Calhoun was recorded December 5, 1823. It was under a law approved December 23, 1824, that the county seat was permanently located by the commissioners, who assembled March 18, 1825, and confirmed the former location at Springfield. The land donated by Elijah Iles and Pascal Enos was laid out into lots, making the streets correspond with those of Calhoun. There was great prejudice against the name of Calhoun, (afterwards the great nullifier of South Carolina,) many refusing to recognize it, and it soon ceased to be used except in the conveyance of lots."


 * My interpretation of everything is that Springfield was little more than a token town, as temporary county seat for a few years after its founding. Calhoun was presumably founded by John Kelly, very near Springfield. Most development occurred there at first, as indicated by the activity in terms of laying out plots and selling land. I believe it was not until March 18, 1825 when Springfield was made the permanent county seat (and therefore permanent town) that Springfield was given more focus. It is unclear whether people stopped referring to Calhoun then, but it is clear that the two towns were integrated. The acknowledgement of the survey June 18, 1833 corresponds extremely well to the end of the Nullification Crisis and what must have been discontent with Calhoun in the northern state of Illinois. I would use this date for the "official" merging of Calhoun with Springfield.


 * As far as agreeing on specific dates for the founding of the city. It must be decided whether the arrival of John Kelly or the founding of Calhoun marks that time, or if it is when the county was founded, along with Springfield to be the temporary county seat. I will make a table with what I think the dates are for the early events I consider important.


 * Some of these dates are corroborated by other sources. For example: http://www.online-springfield.com/firsts.html. However, I would feel better with some other sources, and some better information on the relationship of Calhoun to Springfield


 * David H. Flint 16:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow David, you have done a lot of research. I have added in a few links up above along with yours that are currently in the article.--Kranar drogin 22:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I shall seach JSTOR and some other database. Maybe Illinois Periodical Online has something.A mcmurray 22:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Films
Research for a pop culture section will be required. Any movies filmed here?A mcmurray 00:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not infrequent that movies needing a stand-in for the U.S. Capitol have sections filmed in Springfield at the State Capitol. I know that some parts of Legally Blonde 2 were filmed here. Of course, you may mean only movies filmed entirely here, in which case I am uncertain. David H. Flint 10:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This site has a list of films filmed in Springfield Illinois. It may be useful. I don't have tiome just yet to check them all. Calineed 15:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like a TV mini and Legally Blonde 2 were the only really notable items, perhaps this can all be incorporated under one simple Popular Culture heading, which incidentally, would be a perfect place for the music stuff mentioned above.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 18:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Sports
Not sure if this would fall under pop culture or not but anyway, what about professional or semi pro sports. I am pretty sure Springfield has a minor league baseball team and may have hockey or indoor football or other minor sports as well. We must find out.A mcmurray 19:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The only professional team I am aware of that still exists is the Springfield Jr. Blues, a hockey team. We currently have no minor league baseball team, with the last one leaving in 2001. http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Springfield%2C_IL gives a nice list of baseball teams that played in Springfield. If Springfield has any other teams, I am unaware of them. David H. Flint 14:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like a TV mini and Legally Blonde 2 were the only really notable items, perhaps this can all be incorporated under one simple Popular Culture heading, which incidentally, would be a perfect place for the music stuff mentioned above.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 18:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Music
Music has always been a part of the Springfield culture: Classical, Jazz, etc. Shouldn't it be incorporated into the main article? Just food for thought... I have lived in Springfield for years and I find music to be a very important part of the culture here. I could not find anything on music in the article. TubaPlayer 15:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).   Make sure you use reliable sources (blogs don't normally count).A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 18:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Per this comment, above, this topic needs to be researched and, if necessary, included. Provided the user above isn't just bold.A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry that I was late on this, I have been traveling: Other performing arts such as music and ballet are also common in Springfield. TubaPlayer 15:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem there, just glad to see you joining in. : ) Your previous comment was taken into account. Expansion is always necessary though. IvoShandor 16:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Archiving
As we enter the home stretch of the improvement drive and then subsequent submission to GA (for which I don't think we need refs in the intro as long as the facts are mentioned elsewhere in the article, and they should be), I wanted to bring up a pertinent point.

This whole drive has acted as one big long peer review session and as such I think all of the material on the talk page here relating to it (there is a lot) ought to be readily available to anyone who comes along. I propose a template of the same vein as the current Illinois project collaboration (ie same design style) that works like the oldpeerreview, something that basically says, was the subject of a WikiProject Illinois collaboration of the fortnight. The related talk sessions have now been archived (linking to an archive of the Imprvement drive section of the talk page). The archive may contain ideas to help you improve this artilce to GA standard or higher. Any volunteer template makers?A mcmurray (talk • contribs) 09:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * With regard to the references in the introduction, what you said makes sense. Unfortunately, the article, as it is right now, does not entirely support the introduction. Once the introduction and article are in agreement, we can remove the references in the introduction. David H. Flint 23:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Roger that.A mcmurray 00:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Capital Township
As I was preparing to do the townships for Sangamon County, I noticed that Springfield, as all major cities do, has its own township which is called Capital Township. Should this get its own actual page, or should we just include the info on the Springfield page? The city map will be the same, along with the population and geographical area and demographics. Let me know as I am making a map up for this (just something simple, not very complicated or good looking, trust me).--Kranar drogin 01:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I normally redirect the townships that match city boundaries such as Quincy Township, Adams County, Illinois. Unless someone has a better idea. --Dual Freq 01:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No problems here but I would generally note that townships sometimes encompass small, unannexed parts of cities. They also have separate governing powers and boards and such, I don't care either way. I guess if a separate article were intended (eventually) to provide more information than what can be found here it would be okay.IvoShandor 07:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I will start with a small section in the government area, and we can expand it to a larger article later if we want to. --Kranar drogin 03:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Peer review
I think we should request a peer review when we get closer to being finished. If nothing else, just to get a broader prospective before we take it to GAC and, then, eventually FAC.IvoShandor 02:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we are going to need one real soon I think. Maybe after the weekend?--Kranar drogin 03:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I can just go ahead and put it up now, I'll note that some minor expansion will still be taking place. Eh? IvoShandor 03:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. Please check out the township info and expand if you need to or change.--Kranar drogin 04:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reference problems
One thing, let's make sure we are including adequate info in our citation, something more than title and retrieval is probably necessary, just FYI.

In addition, I would note that the following references should probably be reconsidered or replaced per WP:V. When considering replacement I strongly suggest we look toward more scholarly literature, such as peer reviewed journals and the like, especially for the history section.


 * Ref #2 - : Mainly because this site is citing a book, which we could track down pretty easily. There is no way to know whether what is asserted here is fact other than referencing the book.
 * Ref #3 - : This site looks like mainly a public relations site. We can probably do better than that.
 * Ref #4 - : This site is probably okay but we should verify these facts elsewhere.
 * Ref #8 - : This site, again, looks like PR. Even if it is not it is a webpage about Quincy, Illinois, thus I don't think it meets the criterion of reliable, especially about the topic of Springfield, Illinois.
 * Ref #9 - : Lots of ads there, not sure this is a reliable source.
 * Ref #10 - : Again, while this is probably technically okay the information should be verified with more academic sources.
 * Ref #13 - : Not sure this qualifies per WP:V, maybe. It doesn't cite its sources though.
 * Ref #17 - : Need a better source here, this is all I could find, books might be a good bet here.
 * Ref #20 - : Same as Ref #3 above.
 * Ref #39 - : Who or what is Mondo Times? Is this a good reference? Not sure myself.
 * Ref #40 - : We need to make sure of this sources reliability. The info isn't controversial or hard to find so it should be pretty easy to verify.
 * Ref #41 - : This article doesn't cite its sources. Not sure about this one either.

That's all for now. Please feel free to discuss, or just be bold. IvoShandor 05:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree entirely with you, and was already unhappy with several of these links. With regard to the first link, I believe that that site is a verbatim copy of certain portions of the book. I checked in some local libary catalogs, and it is not difficult to find, though it is, for the most part, non-circulating. The site itself is maintained for genealogical research, and I believe it to be maintained by a Karima Allison. I will see what I can do about inspecting a book myself, but I do not place a high priority on this given the credence of the site. David H. Flint 18:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I can live with that. It would be nice if we could add the cite book template to the citation as well. That way we could note the ISBN and whatnot, so it would make it easier for those with a skeptical eye toward many websites (like myself) can easily verify it if they want to. IvoShandor 00:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

History of Springfield
Hope your still interested in penning this most important article, if not I always can. I am going to start you off with some sources I am finding. Most of them are database accesses that you will need to get through your local library (public/university) JSTOR and others. Check the URLs for specifics. Full citations below so you can just find the print version if you wanted, too. If it's easier we can divide up the work since I have access to these sorts right off. I'll post them on the Springfield talk page too.

--JSTOR--
 * "Consummation of a Labor-Populist Alliance in Illinois", 1894, Chester McA. Destler, The Mississippi Valley Historical Review, Vol. 27, No. 4. (Mar., 1941), pp. 589-602. : This is along the lines of the Populist stuff below.IvoShandor 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Lincoln's Nomination to Congress, 1846 (in Documents)", Harry Pratt Judson; A. Lincoln, The American Historical Review, Vol. 1, No. 2. (Jan., 1896), pp. 313-314.


 * "Fines and Community Protection in Springfield, Illinois", Zenas L. Potter, Journal of the American Institute of Criminal Law and Criminology, Vol. 6, No. 5. (Jan., 1916), pp. 675-683.


 * "Abraham Lincoln becomes a Republican", Reinhard H. Luthin, Political Science Quarterly, Vol. 59, No. 3. (Sep., 1944), pp. 420-438. : This is more along the lines of the types of sources we need for the Lincoln stuff if we are to be taken seriously.IvoShandor 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "The Passing of the Frontier", Arthur C. Cole, The Mississippi Valley Historical Review, Vol. 5, No. 3. (Dec., 1918), pp. 288-312.


 * "Illinois-Granges, Farmers'; Origin of; Springfield Letter". New York Times Aug. 28, 1873 Page:1 Column:1.: Grange Movement stuff.

Thats it for now, more to come. IvoShandor 12:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

More:

--19th Century Masterfile--
 * "Illinois-Democrat and Greenback Joint Convention at Springfield " New York Times March 19, 1876 Page:2 Column:1


 * Harpers new monthly magazine 77(No. 458 July, 1888):260. Index to Harpers New Monthly Magazine, June 1850 to November 1892 : has a bit on Springfield on page 260.


 * "Fires Illinois Springfield stables" New York Daily Tribune Nov 25 1894 Page:1 Column:2: a fire that made headlines in NYC.
 * Another article:"Fires Illinois Springfield, incendiarism" New York Daily Tribune Dec 23 1894 Page:3 Column:5


 * "Carnegie, Andrew GIFTS Illinois Springfield library" New York Daily Tribune Mar 10 1901 Page:4 Column:4:a Carnegie library for the city.

--ABC-CLIO; America: History and Life--
 * Boston, Kelley, A.A PHALANX DISINTEGRATED: UTOPIAN SOCIALISM IN SANGAMON COUNTY, ILLINOIS, Journal of Illinois History 2005 8(3): 209-226. ISSN: 1522-0532: Seemed interesting, the topic was out of left field, may require additional research,


 * Plummer, Mark A., A TOMB FOR ALL TIME: GOVERNOR RICHARD J. OGLESBY AND THE BATTLE OVER THE LINCOLN GRAVESITE, Illinois Heritage 2005 8(3): 10-14. ISSN: 1094-0596: Not only did it seem interesting but it seemed like it might be one of the key points in Springfield history.

--ProQuest - American Periodicals Series Online 1740-1990--
 * A CATALOGUE OF THE KNOWN PENNSYLVANIAN FLORA OF CALHOUN, ILLINOIS, by FISHER, MARY CELESTIN, M.S., The University of Chicago, 1938, 11 pages; AAT TM19531 (citation): Saw the ref to Calhoun, don't know if they mean the county though.
 * "Obama's launch site: Symbolic Springfield ; Announcement venue evokes Lincoln legacy"; [Chicago Final Edition], Christi Parsons, Tribune national correspondent. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.: Feb 10, 2007. p. 1 : So is Obama's announcement notable enough to be included or is the jury still out? I am leaning toward that.

More to come, that's it for now. : ) IvoShandor 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * IvoShandor 12:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC) and;
 * IvoShandor 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments:


 * All right. I have made some brief comments above (on the new entries and a couple on the old ones). What I am doing now is pouring over citations, trying to get a fell for significant events in Springfield's history, especially those which can easily be coorelated to historical events that were happening in the overall American culture.

A few ideas to investigate:
 * Springfield (being the capital) has had a large number of state political conventions. Those of particular interest would be those during times of intense change or strife. The Populist movement (that article makes my eyes bleed btw), the Greenback Party and the Grange movement all had major affilitations with Springfield. These should be investigated thoroughly. I would note that not all sources are available online, some will be easily found on microfilm though.
 * I am still having trouble coming up with references about the bit concerning John C. Calhoun. We need to find out why and how his name was the name originally chosen for the city.
 * Some of the articles above I could only find citations for and not full text (you can see because they have no link) but I thought they seemed to be on topic, if you come across some that aren't, my apologies.
 * I have now included the databases that I accessed, either the article or the citation through (italics like --so--) above the sections, check it.


 * Excellent points; I'm still committed to working on this. Thanks for all your hard work. David H. Flint 06:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Reorganization
I undertook a massive reorganization per the first peer review we've received. The article's structure is almost a mirror image of Detroit, Michigan, a current FA. (Heh, and they don't even have an article on their seal. ; ) ). Unfortunately, it has left some sections stubbed, I moved some text around and filled a couple of them, like 'economy' and 'infrastructure'. As an additional note the notable residents section is gone with all of the information being integrated into the appropriate section under 'culture.' This should serve to discourage the addition of non notable people, a common type of vandalism that those sections encourage. The stubbed sections are: Cityscape (architecture and neighborhoods etc.); adn Further reading (which should be of the academic variety). Some of the other new sections will need to be expanded (which is really nothing new). IvoShandor 08:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll:Tornadoes
I wanted to open up this informal straw poll on whether the information about the March 2006 tornadoes is a case of recentism and whether it is has a place in the climate section. I feel like we unfairly dismissed objection before so this should serve as a better idea. I will post a notice at WikiProject Illinois. Please voice your opinion below with a support or oppose and your comments as to why. IvoShandor 14:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Should the 2006 tornado information be included in the climate section?


 * 1) Keep - I read that link on recentism, and feel that this incident did impact the city significantly. Reading much about it in the news, and what happened following this destruction you can see that many policies, upgrades, and just general good came from this disaster that will affect the future. The city found that not 100% of the sirens were working, so they upgraded them to give them better warning in the future. So, personally, I go with keep.--Kranar drogin 14:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Abrige - I do believe that the 2006 tornados should be mentioned on the page, as it is memorable event in Springfield history. However, I do not believe that it deserves its own section in the article. Upon reflection, it also does not seem to really fit in the climate section either, except for mentioning that Illinois is susceptible to tornados. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to mention the tornado in the history section. I realize that it used to be in this section and was moved to climate, but as it was a single event, it seems historical in nature. With the longer, and to be further lengthened, history section that exists now, the mention of the tornados may not seem so disproportionate David H. Flint 15:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Torn: First of all, I like that discussion has focused on that, a discussion. I am torn on this issue. On one hand tornadoes are a significant aspect of the climate. On the other, tornadoes (even destructive ones) aren't all that terribly uncommon in Sangamon County, and for that matter the rest of Illinois. The reason I bring up recentism is that we have detailed information on the 2006 tornado and only a mention of the other Springfield tornado, in 1957 (which appears to be the only other destructive tornado to hit Springfield proper). Perhaps if it were more balanced out it would look better and more pertinent. I have looked for some information on the 57 tornado but have been unable to find anything around here. Perhaps David, being around the area (I think), might be able to find something at the library (an old newspaper article or something). IvoShandor 22:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Keep in article, I don't know how much to say about it, but both seem notable. City data says slightly above Illinois Average, or 109% above national avg. August 1977 had one near Chatham, Illinois just 7 miles south. The June 14, 1957 F4 tornado, per NWS June trivia, resulted in 2 dead, 50 injured, $3 mil property damage, on the south and southeast sides of Springfield. A 98 mph wind gust from the associated storm set a record that still stands at the airport. This says the 1957 path was nearly identical to the 2006 path. This pdf poster has both tracks overlayed but says the 1957 one was F3 and caused $1 million. Maybe that was 1957 dollars. The poster also lists a bunch of other Springfield related tornadoes. --Dual Freq 00:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Media
I was looking at the media section, and I wondered about what sort of guidelines might exist.

Should we cover media that is produced in Springfield or that Springfield receives. For instance, WCFN is produced in Champaign, but it is targetted at a Springfield audience and the antenna is seven miles from Springfield. Personally, I think that including it makes sense, but it is also already included in the Champaign article.

Another concern of mine is notability. I had never heard of the UIS Journal before, and I am unsure what presence it has in Springfield at large. I also noticed that the Illinois Times is not mentioned as a local newspaper. I presume that this is an oversight, but will refrain from adding it until I undersand what the standards are for inclusion. Likewise, with my own knowledge, but also checking the FCC database, Springfield has many radio stations. However, I do not believe that all of them should be mentioned, though I also cannot determine an objective standard for inclusion. If we only include some stations, but not others, we are disseminating a bias. David H. Flint 06:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I just included what I included because it was what I could find. The UIS Journal, being the publication of the college, is probably notable enough to merit mention, which is pretty brief. The Illinois Times being absent was an oversight. Anything that is aimed at SPringfield ought to be fair game, that should be noted though. When I have doubts I have been referring to Detroit, Michigan, a current FA, anyone will do though. IvoShandor 07:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The Journal, perhaps could be included in a broader paragraph about minor media outlets and publications, or a graf about strictly student pubs in Springfield. IvoShandor 07:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Cityscape
I am going to attempt at expanding this from a stub section. I found this picture section here on the web. Do you think we can use these in the article? I'm not sure if all these pics are free of copyright or what.--Kranar drogin 01:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Crime
I have found some info on the crime section, , and. I hope this helps some for that section for numbers.--Kranar drogin 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Wrapping up? Nope - outstanding issues
Kranar wants to wrap this collaboration up, I think he may have moved on. But before this article makes it to GAC there are a number of open issues that still have not been satisfactorily addressed. They are listed below. Cross them off as they are done, then we can archive this, the peer review and go for GA.


 * 1) Should submit to League of Copyeditors once all other concerns are addressed.
 * 2) Geography section is still basically about Lake Springfield.
 * 3) Looks like the consensus on tornadoes was keep as is, just as a note.
 * 4) The Government of Springfield article should be written and Sister cities of Springfield, Illinois should be merged with it per the Detroit, Michigan FA model.
 * 5) The history section is still being worked on, I still need to look at it too, so its partially my fault as well.
 * 6) The pertinent points in David's table above should all be adequately referenced in both the main history article and here.
 * 7) Lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD and should not contain inline cites. In addition the lead should be a summary of the article and any points (barring outstanding and extraordinary claims) can be cited where they appear in the body of the article, and they should all appear in the body of the article.
 * 8) Refs needed for films and a few other statements in the culture section, IMDB doesn't count as reliable.
 * 9) Sports section needs to be expanded to at least mention past team names, another sentence or two on current teams wouldn't hurt. We need to make sure we have accounted for all activity here.
 * 10) A couple of the subsections under Culture are pretty short, could use some expansion if possible.
 * 11) The References issue above is still mostly outstanding.
 * 12) The cityscape section is about a sentence and would greatly benefit from someone who knows the town and has the cites to back it up.
 * 13) The media section needs to mention all major outlets.
 * 14) No crime section yet.
 * 15) Could use a good further reading section filled with some good books, and some peer reviewed academic articles that we don't use as references.

This is what I see for now. I have also added some images back into the article as well as created a good gallery on Commons and linked it in the see also. IvoShandor 06:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)