Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyBlue-Haired Lawyer

Statement by Blue-Haired Lawyer

 * I wrote most of this a while ago but never posted it as discussion had momentarily petered out. I've decided to post in now as part of the currently resolution process which, hopefully, is nearing conclusion. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 15:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Why the article name of the Irish state should stay as the Republic of Ireland

Renaming this article, "Ireland" whether with disambiguation brackets or not, will inevitably end up with phrases such as "we generally call [Northern Ireland] Ulster, though Ulster strictly includes three counties in Ireland". Personally I think this is the best argument against a rename, but here are some more anyway.

The Irish state has, for better of for worse, two common names:

Ireland is used to refer to the state when there is little or no need to worry about confusion with northern Ireland. It is also used for legal purposes such as Irish Acts of Parliament and treaties. Legal documents come with definitions and acquired meanings, encyclopedia articles don't. In an act of parliament black can be white and white can be black. Under the nationality acts the children of diplomats aren't "people", but who is really going to say that Irish law doesn't recognise them as human beings.

The Republic of Ireland is used when there is a possibility of confusion. The latter term is also a much more precise term for encyclopedic usage. The statement "Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" has a very high probability of being misunderstood if it is made away from the Republic of Ireland article with its copious explanation of the naming problem. No user should be expected to read (the excellent) article on Names of the Irish state. It is not a precondition for reading Wikipedia that they do so. The above statement should be self-explanatory. "The Republic of Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" fits this purpose.

At an article naming level we opt for the Republic of Ireland as a page title. Page titles lack context and Ireland as a title could cause confusion. I admit Ireland (state) does not give rise to confusion but it does end up with an undesirable this is what we say (this is what we mean) naming convention. Ireland (state) would be an ok solution if the Oireachtas had never passed the Republic of Ireland Act, but they did. One of the reasons given in the Dail debate for the act was to avoid the use of the terms "Eire [sic] " and/or "Ireland" to refer exclusively to the state at the expense of Northern Ireland.

Elsewhere in Wikipedia where there isn't any risk of confusion we can (and should) pipe-link: Ireland.

Proponents of a rename have two main arguments: first, Ireland is the official name of the state and, second, the term is frequently used to refer to the state. I'll deal with the latter argument first. I would simply suggest that usage of Ireland to refer to the state falls into three categories:

1. Usage where we would pipe-link because no confusion arises.

2. Legal usage which comes with definitions and acquired meanings. Moreover this usage is insisted upon by the Irish government and so can hardly be taken as a sign of common usage.

3. Usage which which implies, or states explicitly, that Northern Ireland is not part of Ireland which, simply put, is both artificial and inaccurate.

Now I'll get back to the first argument. That Ireland clearly is the official name of the state is a lousy reason for renaming the article. Very few countries have their official names as their article name on Wikipedia and two of them, the US and the UK, use shortened forms.

Arguments in support of the legal name are typically phrased along the lines of right, sometimes moral or sovereign. And Irish editors who oppose changes are effectively labelled as West brits.


 * "This continued imposition of Unionist/British POV on the article title is outrageous, bizarre, unacceptable and contrary to Wiki policy. Only the numerical superiority of British editors forces such a blatantly politically loaded "description" on the country of Ireland." - Sarah777 [link]


 * "No lunacy; this is a matter of Wiki policy which neither Scolaire, yourself nor the defenders of the British 1949 Act can continue to impose on Ireland." - Sarah777 [link]


 * "it's surprising to me that some editors, Irish in particular, would want Sovereign Ireland to be known by its political description, and not as Ireland or Ireland(state). It's a bit like calling the UK the The Monarchy of Britain. ROI is not the name of sovereign Ireland, it's not even an alternate name, it's merely a description of its politique." - Gold Heart [link]

Yet Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum for the attainment of justice or redress against historic wrongs. We have to approach the issues from what's best for the encyclopedia and that is not just use the legal name. The word Ireland is confusing. No amount of law can change that.

Moreover the legal argument seeks to use Wikipedia's guidelines against what they intended. The guideline that legal names constitute appropriate names for disputed entities, is written on the clear assumption that the legal names of countries fall in line with "Republic of here", "Kingdom of there" and "People's Republic of Somewhere Else". It is on this line that the Macedonian state resides at Republic of Macedonia and not Macedonia. Ireland, the state, bucks that trend. If the rule on legal names applied, the result would be exactly the opposite of what it was intended to be.


 * Why Ireland shouldn't be a disambiguation page

The locus classicus of a disambiguation page is a term which has entirely different meaning of which readers may not be aware. Thus Georgia may be a US State or a country in the Caucasus. Anyone who types Georgia in the search bar already knows what they're looking for and doesn't need an explanation over why the term is ambiguous.

This can't be said for Ireland. The term "Ireland" is ambiguous but - and forgive me for stating the obvious - the different meaning are not entirely disassociated. Ireland is neither simply an island nor even just a state, but rather a social, cultural and historical entity. It is this entity which people typing "Ireland" in Wikipedia's search bar want to find out about, and what the Ireland article should be about.

Offering readers a bare disambiguation page with choice of two articles (island or state) is unfair as it expects them to understand why the term is ambiguous before we have an opportunity to explain why this is so. There is plenty of room within the Ireland article to explain and elaborate upon this ambiguity, which would lost in a disambiguation page which could only server to confuse rather than to educate.

Users that endorse this summary

 * 1) BritishWatcher (talk) 15:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Mooretwin (talk) 23:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) ~ R . T . G  01:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Kittybrewster   &#9742;  23:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) 78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 21:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Users that oppose this summary

 * 1) MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) -- Domer48 'fenian'  15:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) --HighKing (talk) 10:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Redking7 (talk) 00:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) --Snowded (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) RashersTierney (talk) 10:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) ClemMcGann (talk) 13:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) 86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 9) --T*85 (talk) 00:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 10) Jack forbes (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 11) Robertbyrne (talk) 22:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 12) Weeman com (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 13) Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)