Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyMooretwin

Statement by Mooretwin
I wish to express disappointment that this project is apparently focused only on the names of article pages.

As I argued in discussions about the Ireland disambiguation task force, the disputes around the Ireland name relate not only to the names of the articles, but also how the names are used within the text of other articles. The names of related articles are also relevant, e.g. Economy of the Republic of Ireland, Demographics of the Republic of Ireland.

'''The narrow terms of reference of this arbitration/mediation attempt mean that it is doomed to fail. A solution that focuses only on the titles of two articles will not resolve the naming dispute.'''

I also argued that the only way to achieve consensus is to achieve a comprehensive solution that included decisions about both article names and also references to names in other articles.

I perceived that the primary cause of the disputes has been the objection by a group of editors, mostly from the Republic of Ireland, to the term “Republic of Ireland”. This objection has validity, but the uncompromising and doctrinaire nature of some of its adherents, who wish to purge the term entirely from the whole encyclopaedia, has predictably provoked similarly uncompromising and doctrinaire opposition.

On the face of it, the stated reason for this objection – that “Ireland” is the official name and the “Republic of Ireland” is not – is sound. It fails, however, to take into account:


 * 1) the ambiguous nature of the name
 * 2) its history as a name deliberately chosen to articulate an Irish-nationalist POV and territorial claim, and
 * 3) the fact that “Republic of Ireland” is the “official description”, provided for in statute by the Republic’s own parliament, and used commonly in the real world as a disambiguator.

The wholesale objection to the term appears to be a visceral one that goes beyond reason.

It is noteworthy, however, that there appears to be no dispute about the need for disambiguation.

My strong view, therefore, is that "Republic of Ireland" should remain the name of the state article, and that "Ireland" should remain the name of the island article.

In the interests of compromise, however, I was prepared to forego this position and accept "Ireland (state)" as the name of the state article but only if there were also agreement to allow "Republic of Ireland" to be used in the text of other articles where appropriate.

My proposal, therefore, was:


 * 1) Move Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state)
 * 2) “Republic of Ireland” to remain as the primary disambiguator for “Ireland (state)” in the text of articles where disambiguation is desirable, i.e. articles about or relating to all of Ireland, to Northern Ireland, to the UK and to the British Isles.
 * 3) “Ireland” to be acceptable usage for Ireland (state) in the text of articles not requiring disambiguation, i.e. articles relating solely to the state, articles relating to the state in wider international contexts, e.g. EU or UN.
 * 4) The Ireland article to be rewritten to focus on all-Ireland geography, history, culture, etc.

This proposal received unprecedented support from a wide range of editors. I still believe that this is the solution.

It is a solution that I can support, however, only as an entire package. The individual elements of the solution lose my support if they are picked off and dealt with separately.

Users that endorse this summary

 * 1) Kittybrewster  &#9742;  10:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) BritishWatcher (talk) 14:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) 78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Users that oppose this summary

 * 1) MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) -- Domer48 'fenian'  15:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) Fmph (talk) 01:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) --Snowded (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) 86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) HighKing (talk) 10:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 7)  BigDunc  Talk 15:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) RashersTierney (talk) 08:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay
Call it fatigue, I'm no longer concerned about what the Ireland articles are called. As long as I can differentiate them, I'm content. Therefore, I'll go along with whatever's decided.

Users that oppose this summary

 * 1) R . T . G  11:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) -- Domer48 'fenian'  15:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) --Snowded (talk) 12:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC) (Qualified as in prior discussions it has been clear that the proponent of this wants to use ROI in all text so compromise becomes meaningless)
 * 5) RashersTierney (talk) 10:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Jeanne boleyn

 * My objection to the name of Republic of Ireland is this: The article on France does not have to be called Republic of France, Italy is not burdened with Republic of Italy, even the region of Sicily is allowed to have an article entitled simply Sicily; yet Ireland is constrained to be labelled Republic of Ireland. It appears as if it had no history prior to 1922.

Users that endorse this summary

 * 1) -- Domer48 'fenian'  15:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) Daicaregos (talk) 16:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Endorse in substance. Redking7 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) waggers (talk) 22:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) --Snowded (talk) 12:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) --Vintagekits (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) 86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 9)  BigDunc  Talk 15:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 10) Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Users that oppose this summary

 * 1) ~ R . T . G  11:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) ~ BritishWatcher (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) — Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Kittybrewster  &#9742;  17:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) Mooretwin (talk) 23:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) 78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 21:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 9) HighKing (talk) 10:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 10) ras52 (talk) 10:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 11) SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)