Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Sarantaporo

Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 08:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Battle of Sarantaporo
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): 

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because of this battle's historical significance for Greece. There are dozens of streets named after this battle all across the country. The Ottoman fortification system in the region was constructed under the guidance of German military advisors who considered it to be nearly impenetrable it was dubbed "the graveyard of the Greek Army" by Field Marshal von der Goltz.--Catlemur (talk) 15:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Source review
 * Apostolidis—what makes this a WP:RS?
 * It has been cited in a paper by a Aristotle University of Thessaloniki professor.--Catlemur (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I notice that it is cited seven times and not discussed in text, so the usage here doesn't seem unreasonable. buidhe 15:21, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Could we have OCLC or other identifiers for Christopoulos and Apostolidis.
 * I found an ISBN for Christopoulos after an hour or so, but Apostolidis I cannot find an indentifier for.--Catlemur (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Please be consistent about listing publisher locations or not.
 * Added locations for all sources except the online paper.--Catlemur (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * More information can be found in this paper. buidhe 04:15, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
I have done some copy editing which you will want to check.


 * Lead


 * It would be helpful to include a map at the bottom of the infobox showing the location f the battle within, say, modern Greece.


 * "It was the first major battle fought between Greek and Ottoman forces during the initial stages of the First Balkan War" Is "the initial stages of" necessary?


 * A reader only finds out who is defending the pass and who is attacking in the second paragraph of the lead. Even then it is not explicitly stated.


 * Is there a reason why both commanders are not named in the lead.


 * WikiProject Military history/Content guide has a good guide to what "the opening paragraph ... should concisely convey."


 * Background


 * A sentence or two of deep background, may be helpful; rather than suddenly starting a reader with the Greco-Turkish War of 1897.
 * I think I have addressed all the points raised, including this one.--Catlemur (talk) 17:27, 9 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Georgios Theotokis was the first post-war Greek prime minister to focus his attention on strengthening the army." When?


 * "Venizelos followed in Theotokis' footsteps by re-arming and re-training the military." Do you mean 'by continuing to re-arm and re-train the military'?


 * "including extensive fortification and infrastructure works" I don't see that these are either "re-arming and re-training the military".
 * Reworded the sentence.--Catlemur (talk) 16:35, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "the invitation in 1911 of a British naval mission and a French military mission." It may help a reader to briefly state what each of them did.


 * "After being informed of a Serbo-Bulgarian alliance, Venizelos ordered his ambassador in Sofia to prepare a Greco-Bulgarian defense agreement by 14 April 1912, fearing that should Greece fail to participate in a future war against the Ottomans, it would be unable to capture the Greek majority areas of Macedonia." A long and complicated sentence. Consider breaking it up.


 * "the Ottomans declared mobilization on 14 September" Optional: 'the Ottomans mobilized their army [or 'armed forces] on 14 September'.


 * "The Ottoman Empire rebuffed the demands, recalled its ambassadors in Sofia, Belgrade and Athens and expelled the League's negotiators on 4 October, with the latter declaring war against the Ottomans, while Montenegro had already began military operations on 25 September." Another long sentence. Which also has "the League's negotiators ... declaring war against the Ottomans". Is that what you meant to say?


 * Prelude


 * "attacked the hastily organized defenses north of Elassona" Suggest deleting "the".


 * "The battle lasted for three hours" What battle? Perhaps 'The battle for Elassona lasted three hours'?


 * "those of a reserve division at Glikovo" Is it known which one?
 * The sources at my disposal do not mention which one.--Catlemur (talk) 13:05, 7 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Sarandaporo was a narrow mountain pass spanning some 7–8 kilometres (4–5 mi), the only one connecting Thessaly with central Macedonia." Suggest 'Sarandaporo was a narrow mountain pass, the only one connecting Thessaly with central Macedonia; it spanned some 7–8 kilometres (4–5 mi).'


 * Battle


 * "(0.31–0.43 mi)" 1. false precision, suggest |sigfig=1, 2. the natural conversion for metres is yards.


 * "The 4th Division fought its way through the Metaxas and Rachovo villages" Suggest 'The 4th Division fought its way through the villages of Metaxas and Rachovo'.


 * "sanguine" Maybe a more encyclopedic word or phrase? If you keep it, change to 'sanguinary'.


 * "The commander of the cavalry brigade ordered his unit to encamp at Loudani" Did the cavalry brigade have a name? has it been mentioned before? What was its role?
 * It did not have name, it was cavalry unit acting independently of the Divisions involved. I can mention its commander if needed. Its first mentioned in the Prelude and it role is outlined in the first paragraph of the Battle section.--Catlemur (talk) 13:05, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. Fair enough then.


 * "Hani 739" is an odd place name. Does it indicate a hill or eminence?
 * Hani means inn in Greek, I assume 739 is the height at which it is located.--Catlemur (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "many soldiers began fleeing and abandoning their equipment" Suggest 'many soldiers fled, abandoning their equipment' or similar.


 * Aftermath


 * "witnessing 75 to 90 severed human heads"; "massacred 117 local Christians". I assume that the heads were those of some of the 117 Christians? If so, best to make this clear. Is it known what happened to the "missing" heads? Were they still attached to corpses?
 * Clarified that the heads belonged to those previously massacred. I assume the rest of the victims were not decapitated, but the sources are not making it clear.--Catlemur (talk) 18:39, 7 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "while the Ottomans lost" Possibly needs an 'approximately'.


 * "which solidified the League's territorial ambitions" I think this needs rephrasing.

A nice, solid little article. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:59, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

That all looks good. A couple of further queries below:


 * "by continuing to re-arm and re-train the military, enacted extensive fortification and infrastructure works, purchased new weapons, and recalled the reserve classes for training." If you have continuing you shouls have enacting, purchasing and recalling as well.


 * "The League's negotiators declared war against the Ottomans." Just wanting to confirm that it was the actual negotiators who declared war. If they did, fine; usually countries declare war.


 * Klapsis: are you citing the 2009 or the 2013 edition?
 * Sorry wrong article, replaced it now.--Catlemur (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:07, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Nice work. Happy to support. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Image review - pass

 * Consider alt text.

All images are appropriately licenced, positioned and captioned. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by PM
This article is good shape. I have a few comments:
 * link Old Style and New Style dates for O.S.


 * if the article is at Sarantaporo suggest using that throughout instead of other spellings


 * link Crete for Cretan, and drop later link


 * what were reserve classes?
 * Reworded as reservists.--Catlemur (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * suggest "who made placed an emphasis"


 * Général de brigade translates as Brigadier General, not Brigadier


 * drop the comma after "Joseph Paul Eydoux"


 * link Formation (military)


 * "Fearing that should"→"This was due to fears that should"


 * drop the comma after "against the Ottomans,"


 * hyphenate "Ottoman held" as a compound adjective


 * suggest piping Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Albania to the historic entities, not to the current ones


 * "namely the 1st Infantry Division, the 2nd Infantry Division, the 3rd Infantry Division, the 4th Infantry Division, the 5th Infantry Division, the 6th Infantry Division and the 7th Infantry Division"→"namely the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Infantry Divisions" and link to the ordinals


 * VIII Corps vs. VIII Provisional Corps
 * Don't quite understand this remark. Everything else I think I've dealt with.--Catlemur (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You use both names, but I assume this is the same corps. Suggest consistency. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:05, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Catlemur (talk) 11:55, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * suggest "the Ottomans began had been methodically reinforcing"


 * Haliacmon River


 * suggest sanguinary→bloody


 * what was/is Hani 739? A spot height?
 * Hani means inn in Greek. The Ottoman defensive line was located right above it at a height of 739 meters. Hence its called Hani 739.--Catlemur (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "Porta Pass, and panic"


 * link field artillery


 * for Albania link Independent Albania


 * what did the 6th and 7th Divisions do?
 * They were not involved in the battle. I just mentioned that they were part of the Army of Thessaly.--Catlemur (talk) 17:09, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

That's all I could find. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:18, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Great stuff, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments Support by CPA-5

 * as Sarantaporon or Sarandaporon (Greek: Μάχη του Σαρανταπόρου) No Turkish language template?


 * Maybe standardise DD/MM/YYYY and MM/DD/YYYY. I reckon to use DD/MM/YYYY because it's the most common one in this article.


 * took place on October 9 – 10 (O.S.), 1912 I don't really agree to use only Old Style; maybe add a New Style date too or add a note how many days the difference was (in 20th century it was 13 days). Also remove the spaces between the hyphen and the dates.
 * Added a note on the date conversion.--Catlemur (talk) 07:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The disastrous Greek defeat in the Greco-Turkish War of 1897 Maybe add "short" after the second "the"?


 * Georgios Theotokis became the first post-war Greek prime minister Per Ngram we should use "postwar".


 * Venizelos followed in Theotokis' footsteps by re-arming and re-training the military Same as above per Ngram.


 * After being informed of a Serbo-Bulgarian alliance Link Serbo-Bulgarian alliance.


 * western Macedonia, totaled 35,000-40,000 men --> "western Macedonia, totaled 35,000–40,000 men"


 * The battle for Elassona lasted for three hours Was the battle a proper noun?
 * I don't understand what is expected from me here.--Catlemur (talk) 07:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If this battle is a proper noun then it should be "Battle of Elassona"?
 * Don't think its a proper noun, I am not a native speaker though.--Catlemur (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Me neither, but because we are depended on reliable source we should look at them and the most commonly of both of them should be used. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:05, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you briefly explain what am I supposed to do now?--Catlemur (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Found this for you MOS:MILTERMS. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Its not a proper noun.--Catlemur (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Thessaly with central Macedonia; it spanned some 7–8 kilometres (4–5 mi) --> "Thessaly with central Macedonia; it spanned some 7–8 km (4–5 mi)"


 * advance further due to heavy fog.[20][18] Re-order the refs here.


 * with the intention of occupying the Porta Pass What's a Porta Pass?
 * Its a mountain pass named Porta.--Catlemur (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe link it if it's not already linked before.


 * engaged in a disorganized retreat.[23][2] Re-order the refs here.


 * lined up on either side of one of its streets.[23][1] Same as above.


 * By WP:INFOBOXREF citations are not needed here because it already summarised it in the body.


 * "22-25 field artillery pieces" --> "22–25 field artillery pieces"


 * Link Old Style in the infobox.


 * Personally I didn't know how big a division is and it wouldn't surprise if others also don't. Maybe add a note there with a clarification of how big a division is in the infobox?
 * The Army of Thessaly numbered 100,000 men, that is 7 divisions plus auxiliary units. Perhaps there is a detailed breakdown of manpower per unit somewhere but I don't have access to it.--Catlemur (talk) 07:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

That's anything from me, I believe. It's something new instead of space, warships, Yugoslavs, Australian, nuclear programmes and others. I would love to have a series of this topic. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Ditto. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I've addressed your concerns.--Catlemur (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe we're almost done; could you explain the readers which date styles we are talking about: 14 April 1912, 15 July 1912, 14 September, 30 September, 4 October and 25 September are these Old or New Styles? I've also tweaked a little bit if you don't mind. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:03, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * All the dates in the article are Old Style.--Catlemur (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * MOS:OSNS applies to the Old Style dates. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:17, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok so basically the article is fine, what now? I am honestly getting tired of this.--Catlemur (talk) 14:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've teawked a little bit but it's now ready to go in my view and because I'm the last reviewer I'll post it to this page. Over there an independent co-ordinator will have a last minute look or this nomination has an image, source reviews and 3 normal supports before it become an A-class. I'd say chill for a moment, the request would normally pass within 24 hours. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:10, 24 April 2020 (UTC)