Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Ernest Roberts (Australian politician)

Article promoted by Hog Farm (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 04:20, 11 March 2023 (UTC) &laquo; Return to A-Class review list

Ernest Roberts (Australian politician)
Instructions for nominators and reviewers
 * Nominator(s): 

Ernest Roberts was an up-and-coming South Australian state and federal politician who died young, but the reason I've nominated him for an ACR is his two tours of South Africa with colonial and then Commonwealth mounted troops during the Second Boer War. I haven't done many bios of soldiers from that war, and it was interesting dipping into Murray (the nearest thing to an official history we have) and I'm interested in the perspective of others on the adequacy of the coverage of his war service. This just passed a GAN review by Hog Farm. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Support by Nick-D
This article is in good shape. I have the following comments:
 * "Roberts also served tours of duty as an officer" - 'tour of duty' seems an inappropriate term given it's usually applied to modern warfare (and I don't think that the Australian military has ever formally used the term?)
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The sentence starting with 'Born in London and schooled' is very long and complex
 * Quite. Split. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:43, 8 January 2023 (UTC)


 * "the early closing of factories" - this is a bit unclear: I presume you mean shorter working hours? (was this part of the push for the 8 hour day?)
 * Not in SA, we had the 8 hour day progressively from 1873. But yes, reduced working hours. I have clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit surprised that Craig Wilcox's de-facto official history of the Australian effort in the Boer War hasn't been consulted - it would be more useful than the 1911 work.
 * Popped in to SLSA and copied some relevant pages, will add some stuff shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:00, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Have done this now. Interestingly, Murray holds up well, his greater level of detail complements Wilcox. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Which party did Roberts represent in the federal parliament? The ALP?
 * Yes, although formally from 1908, the Australian Labour Party, the u was progressively dropped. Have clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:42, 8 January 2023 (UTC)


 * It would be good to clarify what's meant by Roberts being an 'honoury minister'. While a quick search of Trove shows that this term was used by the media at the time, the APH website says he was a minister: https://handbook.aph.gov.au/Parliamentarian/KZG and ditto the NAA: https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection/australias-prime-ministers/andrew-fisher/during-office#second-term As recent events have highlighted, a formal process applies to who is and isn't a minister under the constitution - you either are one or you aren't. Was Roberts sworn in as a minister by the Governor-General?
 * Yes, he was. At the Commonwealth Executive Council in Melbourne . His swearing-in was then announced to the Parliament by Fisher . In effect, it was like a Minister without Portfolio. I suspect they weren't paid as a minister though, but haven't been able to confirm that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:29, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Support My comments are now addressed - nice work Nick-D (talk) 04:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If sources permit, it would be interesting to discuss in more detail what led to a firebrand leftie going off to fight in what was a controversial colonial war the time, twice. Nick-D (talk) 10:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * is it possible to address my other comments? I appreciate that sources might be limited here. Nick-D (talk) 22:59, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry mate. Bit busy elsewhere all of a sudden. Will do that in the next day or two. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:11, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * OK,, all done I think. Thanks for your patience. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Support by Hawkeye7
All looks pretty good. Some points to prove I read it:
 * "reforms, aimed at widening the franchise" Who did he want to widen the franchise to include?
 * all households rather than set value of property. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Hawkeye7  (discuss)  00:33, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure everyone knows that Bechuanaland Protectorate is Botswana. Consider linking.
 * Linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "part of a force under the overall command of Lieutenant General Sir Ian Hamilton." Hamilton was not promoted to that rank until 1902.
 * Well, sort of. Yes he was substantively a major general at the time AFAIK, but he was a local (effectively temporary) lieutenant general WEF 9 November 1901 per the London Gazette of 12 November 1901 here: . Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * suggestions to make this clearer gratefully accepted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it is fine. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  18:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Duplicate links: Charles Kingston (in the lead). "From 1904 to 1908 Roberts edited The Herald, a trade union newspaper published by the ULP." The Herald has already been introduced and linked earlier
 * Fixed now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "He was vice-president then president of the ULP in 1907–08" should be "1907–1908" (MOS:DATERANGE)
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:36, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * G'day, all done, but a query about Hamilton's rank above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Moved to Support. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  18:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Support from Vami
Reserving a spot. – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  22:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The lead, to me, seems out of proportion to the body prose. This article has a lead like a 10,000-word article. – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  23:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Really? It is a bit meatier than I would usually do, but I think it hits all the highlights. The first para is just about his notability, the other three summarise his career. While there isn't a strict proportional requirement in MOS:LEAD, I've trimmed it a little. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Better, thank you. – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  11:59, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * He cemented his position at the 1899 election. [...] seat at the 1902 South Australian state election. [...] at the 1913 Australian federal election [...] Why "at" rather than "in"? Is that an Australian English thing?
 * Possibly, it is the wording used in our electoral laws. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * He was re-elected in the state election on 3 November 1906. Recommend "election of".
 * Sure. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * In the 1893 South Australian colonial election, Roberts unsuccessfully contested the two-member seat of Gladstone in the South Australian House of Assembly as an independent Labor Party candidate, losing narrowly but gaining 30 per cent of the votes. This sentence contains a redundancy, saying Roberts lost the election, and then again and by how much.
 * Good point, deleted "unsuccessfully". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * [...] United Labor Party (ULP) candidate, [...] Unlinked in the body prose.
 * Linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * It would be good to have an image or quotebox or other such resource to break up the wall of text in #Soldier and journalist.
 * Added an image of the 4th contingent from the AWM collection. Not confirmed at this atage, but I have suggested to the AWM that Roberts is at right rear. If confirmed, I'll add that detail. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The convoy was regularly sniped at, but the troops, supported by the guns, drove them off each time. Sniped at by whom?
 * Boers. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * This larger force was also subjected to considerable sniping. "considerable" here is perhaps meaningless, because even one attack by a sniper is worth considering. If the sniping was frequent, say it was frequent.
 * Fair enough, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * As the force approached Bakenkop on 3 July, [...] What's a Bakenkop?
 * A hill. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * the Tasmanians having been detached to Pretoria. I can understand not linking to London, but Pretoria should be linked to here.
 * Linked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * [...] the Boers struck back hard to protect the precious supplies, killing four Australians. There is no need for this qualifier, "hard".
 * OK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * During the Australian withdrawal from this fight, the Australian medical officer Captain Neville Howse acted with conspicuous gallantry to save a wounded man, and was subsequently awarded the Victoria Cross. What does this have to do with Roberts?
 * Well, it is a bit of context. Victoria Crosses are pretty rare (rarer even than the MoH), this was the first one ever awarded to an Australian, and Roberts was present at the action. If you think it is too much of a stretch, I'm happy to delete it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I do; the article is not about Howse. – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  22:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * [..] the Victorian contingent [...] Who?
 * Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Klerksdorp should be linked.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Bazendekout Who?
 * Good question, a Boer fellow called Bazendekout presumably commanded this commando. However, I can find no source that states his full name or anything else about him. I've dropped his name. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * [...] Bazendekout's commando [...] This should be plural, no?
 * A "commando" was a type of Boer militia unit. In WWII the British adopted the word commando, which was both a special forces unit of approximately battalion size, and the name for the soldiers and marines that served in them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You might try "commando unit", then, if "commandos" is inadmissible. – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  22:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, commandos/commandoes in this context would mean multiple units, but this was just one unit. Boer commando is linked earlier. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * From 1904 to 1908 Roberts edited The Herald, a trade union newspaper published by the ULP. The paper was already introduced.
 * Trimmed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * He was vice-president then president of the ULP in 1907–1908, [...] Huh?
 * He was an office holder in the party itself, this is not a parliamentary position in Australia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So, "vice-president and then president"? – ♠Vamí _IV†♠  22:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Image review
G'day, would you mind checking the image licensing for this article? As always, your help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * File:E._A._Roberts_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag and info on first publication.
 * This one was part of a collage of ALP members of the Parliament, and was publicly displayed at Parliament House, Melbourne, and therefore published in 1908 published in the Herald newspaper on Sat 12 Dec 1908. I have tweaked the description and added the US PD tag. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Ditto File:Ernest_Roberts_1905.jpg
 * This one was part of a collage of ALP members of the SA Parliament published in 1905 in the Herald newspaper. Have added that to the description and added the US tag. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:16, 28 February 2023 (UTC)


 * File:Ernest_Roberts'_funeral_procession_in_King_William_St,_Adelaide.jpg needs info on first publication. Ditto File:Unveiling_of_Ernest_Roberts_MP's_grave_at_West_Terrace_Cemetery.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:24, 25 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Nikki, where does publication date come into it? Publication date is no longer relevant for Australian images, and they are US-PD if they were Australian-PD in 1996. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  18:53, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The Australian tag in use requires that we "provide information of where the image was first published and who created it". Additionally the PD-US-1996 tag includes publication date cut-offs. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have attempted to find where these last two photos were published, but they don't appear to have been, and the photos of the funeral and unveiling that were published are not available at a good enough quality. I have therefore removed both, leaving the recent pics of the grave. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Source review
Hawkeye7  (discuss)  19:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * fn 7 - The name of the newspaper should be in italics
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * fn 8 and 9 vs 35: Herald or Daily Herald?
 * the paper changed names in 1910. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * fn 35 says "Daily Herald" in the notes but "The Herald" in the References.
 * fn 7 and 12 vs 19: The Adelaide Observer or Adelaide Observer?
 * The former at that stage, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:06, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * fn 8, 9, 35, 44 - Should specify the city where it is not obvious from the name of the newspaper (WP:HOWCITE)
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Not done for fn 35. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is Adam Carr a reliable source?
 * Carr has a PhD in history from the University of Melbourne and has particular interest in election history, so I reckon he meets WP:SPS.
 * Sounds like an expert. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Manning: publisher?
 * added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Souter: ISBN?
 * oclc added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Spot checks:
 * fn 2, 33 - okay, but I would say "30.0" and "13.0" per cent of the votes respectively for consistency with the other results
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * fn 3, 6a, 7, 39 - okay
 * All done I reckon, Thanks, ! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Just the pesky fn 35 issue (see above). Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:53, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks again, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:01, 11 March 2023 (UTC)