Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/First Battle of Târgu Frumos


 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First Battle of Târgu Frumos

 * Nominator(s): Eurocopter (talk)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because I have just created it and believe it meets all A-class criteria. This article would be the first one within a series of "forgotten battles" on the Eastern Front, World War II. Eurocopter (talk) 14:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Jim Sweeney Support --Jim Sweeney (talk) 15:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You use Panzer Grenadier in the inf box but Panzergrenadier in the text, then swap to Panzer Grenadier later, suggest you chose one which you prefer. Panzergrenadier is wikilinked and corect for German formations of the type. ✅
 * The image [File:GD Tiger1.jpg] is copyrighted and dates to 1943. It needs another fair use tag or is there a better picture in commons from the Bundsarchive ? ✅
 * I have taken the libety of removing the px size on the images as px size is User set on My preferences.
 * Are you sure about this - Early on 10 April, the Grossdeutchland division, consisting of approximately 160 tanks, including 40 Panthers and 40 Tigers, attacked - 80 tanks is about normal for a regiment of two battalions.  The text suggests that Grossdeutchland had 160 tanks ?  Could this be the total for all the divisions involved 2 Arm and 1 Pz Gren as the order of battle link has only one panzer rgt assigned.
 * Yes, I checked the source. Regarding the image I will try to find another one as soon as possible. --Eurocopter (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Overall a good article which I could support for A class. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 16:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have found this image in commons seems to be the right period in the war as well

Comments - the article is currently devoid of categories, could you please add some in? Also, I'm concerned by the massive reliance on Glantz. Would you be able to further diversify the cites? One disambig link also needs attention. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 21:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said above, this battle is part of the First Jassy-Kishinev Offensive, part of a series of forgotten operations of WWII's Eastern Front. But to make it clear for you, I will cite Glantz, the first one which widely describes the offensive and this battle: During the almost 60 years since the end of WWII, Soviet and Russian military historians and theorists have carefully erased from the historical record any mention of the 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts' first Iasi-Kishinev offensive, during which the Red Army's two fronts attempted to invade Romania in April and May 1944. As is the case with so many other military operations the Red Army conducted during the war, they have done this deliberately, in the process relegating this offensive to a lenghty list of "forgotten battles" of the Soviet-German War. Following the Soviet and Russian example, German historians relegate this offensive to the "dustbin" of history by ignoring it and focusing instead on the heavy fighting that took place in the Ukraine from January through April 1944. The few exceptions to this rule are General von Senger und Etterlin's perceptive book, Der Gegenschlag, and the lecture of General Manteuffel, which, although tactical in focus, correctly concludes that Germans' successful defenses along the Targu Frumos axis actually halted "the Russians' thrust toward the Ploiesti oilfields". Today, however, more careful examination of the archival records of German forces, which were defending Northern Romania during April and May 1944, as well as recently released Soviet archival materials, not only support von Senger's and Manteuffel's contentions but also prove irrefutably that Stalin, his Stavka, and the Red Army 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts indeed intended to capture the cities of Iasi and Kishinev during the spring of 1944, and, if possible, extend their offensive operations and Soviet political influence into the depths of Romania, if not the Balkan region as a whole. --Eurocopter (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments (just scanning for little stuff) Support Everything looks okay.
 * "Meanwhile, irked by the defeat suffered at Târgu Frumos, Konev ordered the 2nd Tank Army on 12 April to commence an offensive towards the village of Podu Iloaiei."
 * From what I gather, Konev is calling for the offensive to begin on 12 April, but the wording makes it sound like the order's coming in on 12 April - since I'm not sure precisely what it means and I don't want to falsify the meaning, I'd like a clarification.✅


 * "Stavka 's strategic intentions were to break German and Romanian strategic defenses in northern Romania, capture the key cities of Iaşi and Chişinău, and therefore projecting forces deep into Romanian territory, if possible as deep as Ploieşti and Bucharest." (section 1)
 * a) What's up with the tense (or, whatever it is :\) change in the second part of the sentence? b) I had to read the second half a couple times to make sense of it. Could we split it into two sentences?✅


 * "After a desperate two-day struggle by 35th Corps, three divisions to avoid encirclement, the fighting in the Târgu Frumos region quieted down by midday on 12 April." (section 3)
 * Don't quite understand "three divisions to avoid encirclement". Could be b/c I'm tired and head isn't functioning properly.✅

I'll add more comments as I find them. I would recommend reading it over once more for possible run-ons and necessary clarifications. Icy // ♫ 00:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Meanwhile, the German Eighth Army command reacted rapidly and ordered Hasso von Manteuffel's Grossdeutschland Panzergrenadier division to move towards Târgu Frumos and recapture the town." (Intro)
 * Reacted rapidly by ordering? Or was there something else in the "reaction"?✅


 * "and approached Târgu Frumos and Botoşani regions 30 mi&mdash;60 mi northwest of Iaşi ..." (section: Background)
 * "30 mi–60 mi west of Iaşi and ..." (section:Planning)
 * Are you going to use an en dash or an em dash for those situations, or is there some sort of guideline I'm unaware of? ✅


 * "The German Eighth Army reacted, promptly realizing the danger to its main defenses west of Iaşi, and moved Hasso von Manteuffel's Grossdeutschland Panzer Grenadier Division towards Târgu Frumos." (section: Battle)
 * Similar to one of the point above, would it be correct to say that The Germain Eight reacted ... by moving so-and-so to ?✅


 * "Trapped between the German armour advancing racing into Târgu Frumos from the east and the..."
 * Are you going to use "advancing" or "racing"? I assume you didn't intend to use both?✅

After the end of the battle?✅ Icy // ♫ 19:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Afterwards the end of the battle," (section: Aftermath)


 * Comments - (this version)
 * Sources look alright; although Glantz is used an awful lot, I see what you are saying above.
 * Not required to pass this, but can we have publishing locations and OCLC's where possible for your books? — Ed 17  (Talk /  Contribs)  19:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Added publishing locations almost everywhere, but I'm not sure how to proceed with OCLC's. Can you explain a bit? Cheers, --Eurocopter (talk) 20:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Apologies; I normally explain how to get these. Type worldcat.org/isbn/########## into your browser, where the #'s are replaced by the ISBN of the book, to obtain the OCLC. (Alternatively, for books without an ISBN, go to the site and search for the title of the book.) However, I've gotten the OCLC's, so no more worries. :) — Ed 17  (Talk /  Contribs)  02:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, thanks! --Eurocopter (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. Overall a good article, however, I have one rather large concern: during the Battle section, you mention several people, who I don't believe were mentioned before in the article. Can you please add in these people's first names, and, if possible, link to the articles on them? It's rather confusing to the reader to see basically "Indecipherable Russian name that I've never seen before's Xth division attacked, supported by another crazy name I don't recognize's Zth division". – Joe   N  23:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll check those names, but most of those generals don't have an article on wiki, so I prefer leaving them unlinked instead of adding red links. Cheers, --Eurocopter (talk) 10:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are they notable? If they were just one or two star generals it's fine, but if they did advance to very high rank they should be redlinked. – Joe   N  21:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They were commanders of army corps or armies, but during WWII there were hundreds of such Soviet units, so I don't know if they are notable or not. I'll add redlinks to those mentioned in the infobox. --Eurocopter (talk) 09:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.